Hi MB forum. I'm looking for direction and advice. I am 40, WW is 38, we have 3 daughters, 14, 16 and 19 and i just caught her cheating for the third time.

First affair started on fb, no marriage builders knowledge, old, high school flame, she came home in two weeks and forgive/ forget.

Second affair 5 years later, started on fb. Used marriage builders to expose affair, it blew up, he went back to his wife, she came home and we worked through some of marriage builders but stopped short of complete program. We did agree to no social media and worked through EN worksheets and committed to meeting those needs. She was also diagnosed as bipolar II, started medicating and until 10 days ago, everything seemed great. It's been 5 years again.

Last Wednesday, she took off to "see an uncle". Arriving at her destination, she claimed cell reception wasn't good. I asked for and was given uncle's number. Some chance snooping uncovered a series of events that led to the discovery of this affair. I confronted her and she admitted to it while in a san Francisco Airport terminal on friday. A game she is playing had an online chat room and history is repeating itself. When she landed, she came home and announced the intention to divorce and left.

That night she left. I gathered evidence. On Sunday morning, i exposed the affair to everyone we know. Unfortunately, that was only about 20 people. They called the lover, they called me. Only a couple called her and they really wouldn't talk to her about much- they're all fed up with her.

The lover said he'd been misled by her(no surprise) and he wasn't seeing her any more. At the time, i thought exposure was a success.

Of course, she's furious with me at the time of exposure and is still mad now, but is still constantly talking to me, asking for help, etc. Thinking I'm plan A my way through withdrawal, I'm quick to support all needs, emotional and otherwise, but something doesn't feel right. She's still pushing hard to get the world fastest divorce. Literally, rushing through division of assets, custody, etc. I think it's a fog, avoid all love busters, attempt to meet needs.

She's staying in our motorhome while I'm in the house with the kids. She's had me over for some reason or another almost every night. On one of those nights, i saw an airline plan for a flight to San Francisco. I calmly asked about it and she said it was possibly a plan for 3 months from now. She said he's not with her but they're still kind of talking. She obviously isn't telling the whole story but the calls and texts to him have stopped.

I think he told her he didn't date married women but if she was divorced, they could be together.

I had a session with Dr Harley and unfortunately, i didn't get a real clear plan of action. He suggested plan A, plan B and divorce. I'm going to schedule another session to get a clearer understanding but thought maybe i could get some help understanding how to move forward. She's treating me like we're still married sometimes but mentioning divorce constantly in the same breath. Do i continue plan A, move to plan B, let the divorce happen? It's killing me because i know if i could get the lover out, i could work us to dr harley and a complete recovery but I'm out of ammo.

Any suggestions?

She's also asked to come back to the house, not to reconcile but because it would be easier for her financially. My girls won't speak to her at the moment. I don't want to enable her affair/ divorce but can't help but wonder if being under the same roof would work to my advantage?

**sorry for the repost, i first posted this in mb 101 and realized it doesn't belong there

If she's not under the same roof, you will hardly be able to meet her needs. The odds if you are separated are worse. If you do a good job on plan A, it shows her a glimpse what might be if she stays in a MB marriage. During plan B she will know the difference.

The odds are not in your favour, she is already a serial cheater and the complication that she is bipolar will make her more impulsive. So protect your finances, document everything.

When did you speak to Dr Harley? Did you reach him at his radio show, because he is not in active practice. Does he understand your wife is a serial cheater? Your wife is not having affairs because of unmet needs, but because she is out looking for action. The program won't help that.

You are in a fantastic position while she is fogged out to get a really good legal settlement. I would strongly suggest you take advantage of that so you can protect yourself financially and get primary custody of your children. It you don't protect yourself legally, she will be able to ruin you financially, which can take years to recover from. Right now, she is in an affair and is very apt to wipe you out financially and incur debt. Don't let that happen!

I had a coaching session with Dr Stephen Harley on Monday. Is that not dr harley? He has the full story, understands her addiction to social media and of course her poor boundaries. He said she's an addict, treat her like an addict- cut her off from the drug and protect my family from her while she's on it. He said recovery was possible.

I have an addiction background so i understand that reference. I just don't know how long to work to convince her I'm the best for her and work to get her to embrace this program completely.

There are unmet needs, I've not met affection, admiration or conversation in the past year or two.

Not trying to excuse her behavior. I know it's 90% her fault.

The legal settlement I'm sure will happen unless i can get her out of this affair and to embrace the program.

Sounds like consensus is there's no hope for recovery, just plan B until divorce?

Thanks for the clarification. Dr. Bill Harley is a clinical psychologist and Steve is a licensed therapist. (A very good one too) Affairs are almost always addictions. The difference in your case is that your wife is a serial cheater and she is addicted to having affairs. She is not addicted to a particular person. This is not her first affair and won’t be her last unless she does something to break that addiction. She doesn’t cheat because of unmet needs. You could have met her needs 100% and she would have still cheated because she is LOOKING FOR AFFAIRS. She already knows how devastating they are to you and still chose to do it.

Your wife won’t embrace the program until and unless her addiction is resolved. Trying to convince her will be like trying to convince a falling down drunk.

Have your children been told about her affairs? And have you had STD testing? Can you describe your exposure? To whom did you expose and what did you say?

Also, were you on marriage builders before?

To whom did you expose the affair? Did you expose to your kids? What about the OM's family? Is he married? What do you know about him?

I exposed the affair to all of our family and friends i had contact with and our children. The guy is not married, not on Facebook, no contact with his family. I had his name and had made contact with him by text. Below is what i sent

This message is going out to everyone important in xxx and my life. Some already know, but Friday xxx asked for a divorce. She asked for this is because she is having an affair with a guy who's number is xxx-xxx-xxxx. I have phone records that show is been going on for over a month. On Wednesday, she flew to California and on Friday, I confronted her while she was at the airport and she admitted she was cheating. Sadly, this wasn't enough for her to end it. I'm asking all of you to use your influence over her to help end this devastating affair so we can deal with our marriage. Also, any that are willing or able to call this guy or track down his friends and family, please do. Any questions, please call me and I'll provide all the answers i have

This got to everyone except her chat room group on the game she plays(where the OM was/is). Those people are the only people she talks to now, everyone else we know she's stopped talking to except for one cousin and aunt whose number i don't have.

I haven't been tested for std, this was first in person encounter.

We were on MB before but after the habits were formed, we stopped checking in annually to make sure all needs were still met. I got comfortable and complacent, so did she and here we are.

I understand she's a serial cheater but i think it's partly because i ignore her needs. I don't know. I do know that her adamant mindset on filing for divorce instead of talking through anything when she was happy a month ago tells me she's still chasing the OM instead of being an adult, so what do i do?

What did your children say when you told them?

Did you contact the people on that game chat? Have you looked his name up to find any relatives?

Did you contact the OM yourself?

Have you read Serial Cheaters?

There is an article that Dr. Harley wrote about serial cheaters that is in that thread. Have you read it?

My children said good riddance. She picked him over us, she's not my mom any more.

I don't know how to find the game or game chat. I looked up the OM, contacted him through text while she was with him. I had many others call him, including one that acted like my teenage daughter.

As far as his family members, i can't confirm he has any. Using his name from voicemail and peoplesearch, there's no relatives, he's 39 and single.

I've read serial cheater

Do you want to save your marriage?

Yes, i want to save my marriage.

Sorry, Brainhurts, i thought you were referring to dr harley's article. I've now read the thread as well.

She is a self centered, selfish person by nature and she is a little bit of a flirt. She has terrible boundaries with men and low self esteem which all matches serial cheater BUT she also tried to stay with each OM, so i don't know 100% she's a serial cheater by that definition.

Either way, living with EP's worked for the last 5 years until she violated that. Meeting each others most important emotional needs, spending at least 15 hours of quality time together with undivided attention, never spending a night apart, making sure our happiest times were spent together, all done up to the day she left.

Strangely to me, she asked me to have dinner with her last night. It was like nothing was wrong, had good conversation, no talk of divorce, etc.

Still doesn't make sense. I can't tell if she's just riding along waiting for the divorce filing in two weeks or if she is responding to my care and attention. Maybe both.

You could have met her needs 100% and she would have still cheated because she is actively looking for action. She has terrible boundaries with men because her lovebank is open. A serial cheater is a person who cheats multiple times, as she has. They are addicted to having affairs. That defines her.

Did you read the advice to get legal protection now while she is fogged out, before she destroys your finances? You can file for divorce or separation and get a good agreement from her now while she is fogged out. If you want to try to save the marriage, you can drag out the divorce but you would be legally protected. If allowed, she could cause enormous damage to your finances.

Thanks MelodyLane, yes i read that. The divorce is negotiated, filing using 401k money that should be here in about 12 days. I'm moving in two directions, preparing for divorce and looking for a way to avoid it.

That's why I'm here. I understand she's a serial cheater. I know that means for any hope of success, very strict EP have to be and stay in place. And i know if we get to that road, it will be difficult and long.

What I'm looking for is advice on how to get from where i am to the next step, if there is one.

Dr Harley's advice to those married to serial cheaters is to close all the doors and windows. She needs to give up the computer and smartphone. You can never spend another night apart. You will have to monitor her movements during the day in ways that are not disclosed to her for the rest of her life. If you are prepared to do that and she agrees, congratulations. This is not going to be easy.

Get the legal papers finalised and the money safe before you drop this on her.

Should i start by allowing her to come home?

I don't know how you can force her to change. That is an unrealistic expectation in this situation. That is why I am recommending that you negotiate a divorce settlement NOW in order to get the best possible deal while she is fogged out. She is probably planning on taking as much money as possible to go be with the OM and will do that one way or the other.

That doesn't mean she won't wake up at some point, but I don't see that happening. If you got a legal agreement in place now, FOR PROTECTION, you could take your time and try to win her back.

The fact that she has moved out really helps in your settlement. It also helps you get primary custody.

I'm following your advice to get the divorce paperwork in order. My current plan is to go to plan B when we file if nothing changes, which is less than two weeks out.

In the mean time, what should i do? We seem to be reconnecting but not committing. Carry on?

I would not go into Plan B for some time. The objective of Plan B is to protect yourself from a destructive affair. Men can usually last longer and I don't think you are close to that point.

I would focus on getting the best possible legal settlement you can while she is fogged out. Don't negotiate directly, just have your lawyer offer her a deal that is GREAT for you and your kids and GOOD for her. Get her to agree to settle now so you are legally protected.

So today's plan A took a turn. Maybe exposure wasn't a failure after all. When i approached the topic of reconciliation yesterday, she said she was thinking about it. Today she asked what that looked like to me. I explained that ending all contact with the OM was the first step as well as proving to me it was done(according to the letter examples on MB) and from there, there were some great recovery processes on MB. She is considering it but she remembers the questionnaires and hates having to disclose everything from her childhood. I guess she doesn't remember she already did that, or maybe she was never honest the first time.

How do i approach this now without enabling a partial program and without making her feel like it's my way or the highway? Can't see how we can follow the policy of joint agreement if she doesn't agree.

*No, we haven't stopped our divorce process. I know we're not anywhere yet*

Will she send a NC letter to OM?

Will she give up all avenues she used to carry on her affair? No more games, no more internet, no more smart phone?

Can you be together 24/7?

The NC letter and barring all means and methods of contact was presented as the first step. The second step presented was policy of joint agreement. This step was coaching with Dr Steven Harley and marriage builders. MB was the only objection because of the personal disclosure worksheets.

This was our first real negotiation conversation. I would love to fast forward to the end where all necessary precautions, up to and including being together 24 hr a day, were in place and agreed to enthusiastically but there's no way that's happening today. It might take 6 months, who knows? I'm taking this one day at a time and want to make sure there are no missteps on my part in getting to the only chance we have of a fulfilling and lasting marriage.

I know if we don't cross the finish line together, it's just divorce. We just hit the starting line. How should i get out of the blocks? For people that don't believe in MB, how should i negotiate from "what's this look like" to "maybe it's worth trying"? I expect if i get her to accept talking to dr harley, we can start coaching to a place that gives us a clear path, together or apart.

RO, the POJA does not apply to affairs or abuse, because the steps after an affair are necessary to recover the marriage. For example, you wouldn't "negotiate" the subject of drunk driving with a drunk driver, would you? Do you have the book, Surviving an Affair? The extraordinary precautions are outlined in this checklist.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Thanks. I understand the EP are not negotiable. The affair has to end and protections have to be made for recovery to be possible.

I have surviving an affair, I've read it. I know where we have to end up.

The issue is getting her on board. What are the tactics to work with WS to help her understand this is in her/our best interest? It seems like "stand my ground" is the wrong approach, even though that is truly the place we have to end up to start anything other than divorce.

In my present state of mind, i second guess every conversation, every thought. Thank you for your help.

Nevermind that last post. She's definitely still chasing the OM, just made arrangements to come by tonight to pick out her half of the stuff in the house. I'm having a hard time keeping on plan A today...

How did you find this out?

She told me in text

She told you what?

That she's firm on divorce. She said it makes her feel selfish and self centered but it's what's best for her.

She said the affair has nothing to do with the divorce(yeah, right) and it's everything else but there's nothing to talk about because divorce is the answer for multiple reasons that she doesn't want to discuss. She also lashed out when i asked what was the issue that couldn't be overcome in time, that left divorce the only answer.

This is all happening after bringing up MB last night and talking about the first step being to cut off all contact with the OM, which she is not willing to do apparently.

I apologized for asking a question that hurt her. Up to this point I've asked nothing of her except twice asked about considering an alternative to divorce.

The flip from yesterday to today must mean the OM told her what she wanted to hear last night. What she's saying doesn't add up with reality so i don't know, but i know.

Oh, she also said that she thinks we can still be good friends and hang out after all this is over and could i come over tonight after she picks out her stuff and help her cover some windows with sun repellant.

So tonight, the WS came by to divide up possessions and discuss final arrangements for D filing. She confirmed she has big plans for herself and the OM.

Do I continue plan A through D filing or switch to plan B before? Right now, we have an uncontested divorce that is great for me, good for her and good for my kids(joint custody but teenagers that know what moms up to and won't speak to her).

I would love to plan B without filing but i don't think that protects my girls or myself.

Hey repeat offended, sorry to see you here, but you are in the right place to get help and the veteran posters here are ridiculously experienced and laser-focused on using MB principles to save marriages.

I have had somewhat similar experiences as you in my own marriage. I have also worked with Steve for a long time. I would follow the path Steve laid out for you, assuming he did, as I recall you saying you were coaching with him. By the way, all of what you wrote above that she said is fog babble, as I'm sure you realize. The affair is the center and reason for all of her actions right now and the reason for her wanting a divorce. It is textbook.

On whether to continue your plan A, my own thinking would be to plan A until the divorce is final at least. Then you reassess and if you have remaining emotional ballast and want to potentially reconcile, you could try to go longer. Or not.

What I learned from Steve is that the whole thing with plan A is to present to your wife a glimpse of an alternate future where you meet her needs (and consequently she yours). Be consistent in presenting to her there is a way to save the marriage and have a marriage where you are both madly in love with each other. Let's explore that together. Of course part of that idea working in the future will be EPs, just compensation, POJA, etc. but that is too much to throw at her now. She won't bite. I would guess the challenge now is getting her to explore MB with you. Given the ongoing A, I doubt she is hearing you right now at all, but there may come a time in the future when she will reassess and reconsider things.

On your divorce agreement, do you think you could get full custody with your kids' support? The way you describe it, it seems they want nothing to do with her right now. She is fogged out and focused on the fantasy life with the OM post divorce. You will never get the deal you can get now again. This is the time to protect yourself and your finances and your children. It will also set you up to be in a stronger position if she does return to be able to be firm on what it would take to reconcile, e.g. EPs, POJA, no-contact letter, total transparency, etc. Then either way you win.

Blackhawk, thanks for taking the time.

Steve didn't give me a path- he suggested i try A, B or divorce.

Full custody would be supported by my girls but maybe not by the courts and that's a long, drawn out divorce which could hurt them more than just getting just being that part over with. So far, I've heard there's not really a chance at recovery for her so I've not really considered that legal route.

RO, I would move forward with your plan. Get a great settlement for you and your kids and stay in Plan A for now. The objective for now is to protect you and your daughters legally. Does she still have access to bank accounts and lines of credit? If so, I would address that so she doesn't wipe you out.

Thanks MelodyLane. No, she has no access to financials and we've agreed to division of assets, other than furnishings, which we'll finish today, i think. Plan A for now.

Should i start planning for a plan B now? Seems like D filing would be the right time to let reality set in that she has to lie in the bed she made (pun intended) but does that depend on her reaction to plan A between now and then?

I'm just guessing based on her entrenchment in this affair, it's not going anywhere and I've read the structure and execution of plan B is imperative.

In my readings of Dr. Harley and listening to the shows, he is consistent in advising to plan A as long as you can if you are a man, with a loose maximum limit of about 18-24 months, depending upon the situation and emotional make-up of the man. For women it is much shorter - about 3 weeks max - due to greater emotional damage and later health damage manifesting much sooner for women.

In plan A as a man, you are competing with the other man to demonstrate to your wife you are the better choice. Once you can no longer handle the emotional damage of keeping up the plan A in the face of the affair, you go to plan B. This is to maintain your own emotional health, but also to maintain some love for your spouse. If you plan A too long, you risk sabotaging your efforts with love-busters and undoing all of your previous hard work as it will get harder and harder to demonstrate care and civility to someone hurting you. love-busting you, and discounting your feelings constantly. You want to go to plan B as a man before that point.

Plan B is not done though to punish your wife and show her how wrong she is. It is done to protect you emotionally. Plan B may or not be appropriate for you after the divorce.

MelodyLane gave you great advice above. She is the one to listen to. Protect yourself and your daughters with a great settlement. Keep plan A for now. Reassess on the other side of the divorce.

Did something today that's either really stupid or really smart.

Texting with WW, she sent me a posting for a job reply that was an obvious scam to me. I showed her what was fake and had an idea.

I offered her a job reading every page on the MB website at a per-page rate, so long as she didn't feel it was crossing boundaries or hurting her. She accepted the job. So she's either going to learn how to take care of the OM really well or find a little hope for our marriage.

Anyone done this, heard of someone doing this before?

Blackhawk did a super job explaining Dr Harley's position on Plan B for men. It is not to punish or teach her a lesson, it is only to protect yourself emotionally if and when that becomes necessary. Just stay the course and focus on protecting yourself financially.

My plan B question is not to punish her, it's to protect myself. I'm still going over and providing a lot of support, helped her brainstorm job ideas, fixing stuff on her motorhome, driving over to take her ice cream because she wanted a snack. Steven Harley suggested i plan B because it would make her face reality since she's not feeling any consequences of the affair except our girls won't speak to her. She still has money, she's out of the house, no responsibilities, no worries. Just chat all day on her chat room with people who give terrible advice and chat with the OM. Really, it's a pretty sweet gig. And i think maybe I'm enabling it by meeting her needs when she wants me to and being gone when she doesn't.

Dr Harley also said to delay the divorce and plan A bit didn't tell me whether i should put her back in the house.

It was confusing. Maybe I'm not plan A correctly. It's hard separated anyway, maybe impossible.

Yes, it is exceedingly difficult to plan A if she is not living with you. You seem to be doing it though with some success with all of the attention you are giving her. On the other hand, it may be difficult to get your WW out of the house when it is time to go to plan B, but in your case she left already to live in your motor home, right? It seems you are physically close enough to plan A her, but also she is out of the house so you have some space and protection from her.

Regarding your advice from Steve Harley, if confused or second-guessing things, I would suggest to schedule another session to clarify his advice so you are not guessing on the best approach in such a difficult time. I realize it is a lot if information to internalize and apply.

That is a correct reason to go into Plan B. If you are sure he said that, I would plan to do it.

I think I'm ready to throw in the towel. According to her, there's nothing left to talk about but logistics to get this divorce filed. According to the great people here, there's nothing to be done with a serial cheater and according to my heart, I've taken all i can.

Any helpful tips to get through two more weeks until divorce is filed so i can plan B? I've located an IM that is a friend to us both, happens to be a gay guy so no chance of either of us getting involved lol, and I'm educating him on the process, rules, etc.

Check this out: WHAT TO DO WITH A SERIAL CHEATER Willard F. Harley, Jr., PhD

Strong suggestion, email Dr Harley and get his feedback on your situation. [it's free] mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. I ran this by him and agrees you should just file for divorce and move on.

"Get a good attorney and have the attorney speak for you. Let the kids speak for themselves. File for full custody so the court doesn't force the kids to see their mother and boyfriend."

Thanks MelodyLane, i emailed him this morning and will be talking to him Friday. My WW states she is going to email her story to them today or tomorrow, which would be the first time she's really taken any initiative if she follows through. Will be interesting to see what she says is unforgivable on my part.

Until then, plan A. Spent an hour in the phone with her today talking like we're not getting divorced. I'm sure it's been said before by many people, but this is so weird.

Did Dr Harley ask you to ask her to do that?

Joyce did

Gotcha, I will listen on Friday!

p.s. please don't send your wife to this forum because you will lose it as a resource.

Thanks, but it may be too late, maybe not. I've shown her the site, she knows the forums exist, although i think she lost interest in reading through the site pretty quick.

Obviously it would not be a good idea for her to read this thread with us telling you expose and file for divorce. Nor can we help a wayward in the midst of an affair. Talking to her would only cause conflict here.

So with talking to dr harley of the air, then on, it would seem that i have nowhere to go. Filed for divorce yesterday, and had to set boundaries with the WW to talk about only kids, divorce proceedings and money but kept communication open. She and i were talking/ texting all day like we were back together even though we weren't and she's still in an active affair.

Off the air Dr Harley recommended i divorce and divorce quickly. He said he saw no reason to plan A or plan B. Basically left me in a place where all hope is lost and my family is broken forever. That's a tough pill to swallow.

He did say the affair will end at some point and maybe we would be able to find something in the other side but said even then, never marry her.

I guess this is the end of this thread. I hate where my wife has put my family and i don't want to move on. Thanks to everyone that attempted to help.

RO, were you on Friday? I would like to listen. I am sorry about this news, but I think he is right. Like I have told you before, you really need to file for divorce and get legal protection. Your wife broke up your family and your kids know this.

I was on last Monday/ Tuesday. Divorce was filed 4 days ago.