Star*fish, DZZZ and Takola, Self-improvement

Marriage Builders

Dear MB Readers:

This thread contains frank discussions of controversial issues. If you are offended by controversial ideas, you may wish to not read this thread.
Quipper

Dear Star and Tak,

I did not intend to offend people with feelings about child molesters.

I did ask for your help in improving my posting. I pointed out that I post both sidees of the marital sex drive issue Both suggesting ideas for improving self-control, and for low to medium risk outlets for the drive.

In suggesting ideas for approaches to improving self control I Have suggested:

I have suggested the Silva Method and counseling for couples who have difficulties with matching the sex drives of the partners. I am starting to recommend Hypno-therapists, listed in the Yellow pages. Do you have further suggestions for self-improvement courses, for those who wish to help their partner cut back a sexual appetite through self-discipline?

I try to post to people who seem to present real problems. I will try to answer the theortical debate questions everyone has raised, as I have time. But I feel listing options of where people can get various types of help with their problems is a reasonably high priority.

I would appreciate anyone's ideas

Quipper

[ November 22, 2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]

Quipper: I was very much offended by your child molestation comments. Still am. It will take more than a simple "I didn't mean to" for me to trust you.

You have singled me out (sorta) so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept your good intentions.

I also do not want you to feel singled out or offended by anything I have said but I have some passionate views when it comes to defending "my" faith, porn, and issues that pertain to children.

As far as asking for suggestions?

Quipper because this is a Marriage Builder's site, I generally don't advocate much outside those principles.

I have on two occasions, to my knowledge, deviated from Harley Principles and concepts to include Meyers Briggs Personality testing and now a book called the "Five Love Languages", which seems to compliment the MB concepts.

Sorry if I am not much help in this area, I tend to be more of a traditionalist when it comes to public forum and I like to stay with what I can comfortably agree with.

I like the MB principles, and I try to stay within those boundaries. (at least on this site)

DZZZZ

[ November 21, 2003, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]

Quipper,

There is an incredible amount of people on this board who were victims of child abuse. The use of the word "love" associated with that act makes me want to scream. I have first hand experience in that regard. In fact, I would suggest that even quite a few of the women you deem prudish have been the victims of past sexual abuse and struggle to fulfill the sexual needs of their spouses.

One thing that I have noticed about your posting however....is that when you talk about mismatched sex drives...you always seem to single out the women as the low drive partner. You describe in detail...quite graphic detail....which toys and techniques they should use etc. And yet, I have never seen you address this issue with a man. You know there are a large number of women on this board who are the high drive sex partner in their marriages...like me for instance. I can name alot more too....baba, carina, toni, aeri. When you talk about options to address these differences....well I know for men there are drugs, and they have some new creams and such for women. I have no problem advocating fantasy and experimentation in the bedroom....but I'm reminded of a poster who dressed herself up like a sundae...complete with whipped cream and cherries and her husband completely freaked. I just don't think one size fits all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I did not intend to offend people with feelings about child molesters.<hr /></blockquote>It is not a matter of intent. Your posts are indicitive of a twisted way of thinking. You say you weren't referring to the type of child molestation that is 'aggressive and uncaring'. This leads to the conclusion that you are referring to the other type that IS caring and unaggressive. Children are in no position to agree to any type of sexual contact or situation, even legally. This definition is clear in the age of consent. There is no type of unagressive forcing yourself or sexual situations upon a child. There is no 'caring' in any act that so damages a child. The only consideration in these acts is the consideration of the molester for himself/herself. That's it. Molestation meets the sick needs of the perpetrator.

What I would like to see from you is some sort of debate on the pornography subject rather than argument. Many people here have backed up their points with documentation, research, and examples. Give me one example of the use of pornography to treat sexually deviant behavior that has been successfully used by a qualified professional and has been accepted in the professional community as legitimate. You only offer your opinion on the matter, and this is hardly sufficient rebuttal to the evidence to the contrary that has been presented to you.

Indeed, when you are asked questions or asked for examples, you neatly side-step the questions or ignore them altogether. Having been trained in debate, this is evidence of a weak position based solely on the presenter's opinion.

[ November 21, 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

Dear Takola, (Note, Contains graphic language)

Thank you for your reply. I also appologise to you persnally, for any flashbacks that I have unintentially created.

I do not have answers for all the questions that you raise in your post, or that have been raised recently by you and others. I am interested in getting better answers to the questions for myself.

You are correct that the intent of any person is irrelevant to determining criminal guilt, if the person engages in any sexual contact with a person below the age of consent. The age of consent, and punishment levels, vary from state to state. The intent, or the degree of aggression used in the incident, is irrelevant for determining guilt. Other factors are often considered at sentencing.

You are correct that I cannot cite to you studies that would show the opposite of your beliefs. Your belief is that pornography encourages deviant sexual behavior, including child molestation.

The studies that have been done, to my knowlege, do not directly deal with the issue we are discussing and debating.

I don't come on this board to criticize people. I try to be helpful. Is there some way we can further clarify the issues in our debate?

I have mentioned the Bible, because others have mentioned it. I have researched my position, and am comfortable with stating that the Bible is silent on pornography, directly. But my position that pornography can play a role in satiating sexual desires, and thereby reduce deviant drives, is based on my experiences and inferences from research on rehabilitataive regimens.

How do you suggest we get more reality on this question?

Quipper

[ November 22, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have mentioned the Bible, because others have mentioned it. <hr /></blockquote>Please clarify which Bible you are referring to, as there are several.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You are correct that the intent of any person is irrelevant to determining criminal guilt, if the person engages in any sexual contact with a person below the age of consent. <hr /></blockquote>Ah, criminal guilt. I notice you are still hedging on this issue and avoiding any phrasing that could possibly be interpreted as "child molesters are sexual predators and morally reprehensible".

[ November 21, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

Quipper,

“but there is no direct admonition about porn in the Bible.”

and

“I encourage women, or anyone, coming to MB, with a religious or ethical block to enjoying porn with their spouse, to re-evaluate the underpinings of their block.

Here are two quotes from you Quipper on one of your other threads. They really stuck in my mind in part because you use it as justification for the use of porn and how enlightening it is. I started three separate replies to you on your other thread, but just didn’t feel that was what I was supposed to send. This morning it hit me why I couldn’t send them and why your words stuck with me.

This what came to mind: Genisis 3:1-5 Italics are mine

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" (sound familiar, God didn’t say porn was bad). The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " (but God did say Matthew 5:28). "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (porn isn’t evil it will help your marriages).

And you come here acting as if you have no intent on upsetting any one and trying to be nice, courteous and respectful.

2Co. 11:14 “But I am not surprised! Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light.”

Be careful about the instructions you give to people coming here who are hurting and seeking help.

Luke 17:1-3

One day Jesus said to his disciples, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones. I am warning you! If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. ...don't know if you're really a believer

Matthew 18:7

"How terrible it will be for anyone who causes others to sin. Temptation to do wrong is inevitable, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting.

I doubt you will have an adequate response to any of this; just like you don’t respond to or don’t have any rebuttal to the articles or questions that Star*, Diamondzzz , LMX or I have posted on any of the threads you have occupied.

BTW - Quippers are freshwater piranhas that live in colder waters. They are creatures of prey.

S&C

S&C,

Wow!

Quipper,

I usually avoid your posts because I see no sense of reality. I suppose that may be what porn did for you. Other advocates of porn, I can say "they've thought this out and made a decision." But you. I don't think so. I think you seek justification.

Are you a Christian? It's hard to tell. I hope to God your are not because you are in for some hard times. He will not be mocked.

So are you seeking justification? It appears you seek it for everything from pornography to child molestation. I wonder if you have already been engaged with a child and now you won't ascribe to this hideous act the correct terminology because you don't want to face the truth of what you've done...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I'm postulating, not saying Quipper has done this. I'm postulating based upon some observances.

I'm a child sexual abuse survivor too, and I am no prude. Ask my H. H also does not use pornography? Why? Because I think it's wrong AND SO DOES HE, otherwise he would not have stopped, I'm sure.

We think it's wrong because the Bible says, "If a man looks upon a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her in his heart." Does that mean any woman? A paper woman? Remember Bathsheba was out of David's reach. He couldn't touch her from where he saw her, but he burned in lust for her and HAD to have her. He had her brought to him. Then he had her H killed. Then, his own son raped his (David's) own daughter.

You keep daring someone to show that the Bible EXPLICITLY points out that PORNOGRAPHY is not allowed. Um, since there were no cameras back then, that most likely will not happen. If that justifies it for you, so be it.

But children are off limits. You don't need the Bible to tell you that. But the Bible does tell us that. Children are not to lust after. They are to be brought to the Lord and if someone causes one of them to stumble, it's better that a stone be tied around his neck and he to be thrown into the sea.

IOW, "'Vengeance is Mine' says the Lord." I don't want to experience that. Do you?

Petals

Quipper,

I am leaving to go on a Thanksgiving trip for a week, so I won't be around to post back to you and didn't want you think I was ignoring you.

Before I leave....I wanted to say that I can imagine you are feeling defensive and personally attacked. I imagine you aren't really sure why, when your posts are very respectful and you volunteer alot of time trying to be helpful to others. You asked for feedback about your posting....and I want to be both sensitive and honest to you as I try to explain.

You know that the numbers are tipped in favor of the women on this board. For women, pornography tends to be a hot topic...for some very good reasons. Because of the causal connection that MANY (not all) studies show between pornography and sex crimes, also the negative view of women....most of us will look upon it dubiously. It would be a bit like going into a Jewish a Synagog and saying you thought Hitler had some positive attributes. So first off....you are sometimes insensitive to your audience.

Lots of people on this board use pornography and don't get taken to task for it--in large because they don't go around (controversially) recommending it as sex therapy or a good addition to the marital bedroom as a cure for deviance or drive problems. Controversial topics get attention....pornography is one of them....if you tackle it here in the fashion that you have so far...you will be challenged.

The next thing, is that you have an unusual way of communicating which seems to show a desentization to sexual issues as they relate to common codes of morality or the feelings of those victimized. When we spoke about pedophilia....you talked about treatment for the people who love children too much. When we talked about voyeurism....again treatment and help for the the voyeur. When we spoke about pornography.....again, it's like it is a victimless activity...which is not always true. All of these scenarios have victims. Many victims of such things are on these boards. When you ignore the victim and phrase your language to de-victimize these things(like your description of the oral sex on the five year old) .....it's invalidating and insulting to many women. By and large.....men are the perpetrators of sex crimes and women and children are the victims.....so it stands to reason, that women are the most likely to be offended by the way you communicate which seems to re-victimize them will anger women. Prudishness is just not the root of all marital problems....anymore than testosterone is.

Your statements omit your opinion of these things....leaving you wide open to conjecture about what your stand (opinion) on things like child molestation or voyeurism actually is. You have never said pedophilia victimizes children, or that it is sexually deviant....or even wrong. You asked me to prove voyeurism is a crime, like there is some question that it is??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> You never said that it is an invasion of privacy and recognized as sexually dysfunctional. If you cannot say that these things are wrong....it hurts your credibility with most of the women here. Your language communicates a flexibility on these things that suggest that you don't really think they are wrong. And you leave us to guess about what you think.....placing your other advice as suspect as well.

While I know of no one else who recommends pornography to others on the board as a good way to improve sexuality....that doesn't mean there is none. Lots of people disagree about the use of porn (though don't go around graphically describing their use of it)....but these other issues are different. Frankly, if you think it's just a difference of opinion (and pedophilia and paraphelia are simply alternative choices), then your views are so far outside of anything I can wrap my mind around...that I would not feel comfortable accepting marital advice from you, or turning a blind eye when you post to others.

Finally....even though I am not a Christian....there are quite a few on the board. Christian AND women...double whammy there I think. The bible was written thousands of years ago....long before the word pornography was ever used...before cameras, before video, or the Internet. It is not silent on this issue.....it just does not refer specifically to words and appliances that did not exist. You are likely to offend many people here if you continue to insist that pornography is A-okay with Jesus cause he never once mentioned "Debbie does Dallas". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do not think you are a child molester....but I do wonder just where you draw the line between right and wrong in terms of sexuality....without clarification....I think that people will continue to post these questions and debates because you continue to evade answering them. So my best advice to you is to come out and say what you mean and what you think. Make it clear and use language that doesn't desensitize these very painful things for others. Show the same compassion for the victims as you do the men who just don't get enough sex!

Dear Steadfast and Committed,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Certainly the Bible contains many admonitions. I don't say that errotic materials cannot be misused. If a knife can be used for a murder, does that mean I should not use a knife to slice tomatos in my kitchen?

My purpose of posting on the MB board are to give people ideas for solving marital problems, and enhancing their marriages.

I do not seek to convert you to employ or enjoy errotic images as I do. Perhapa your extension of the principles in the Bible leads you to believe that you should speak against porn for religious reasons. I do not attempt to persuade you that porn is good for you. I do not suggest that you try porn, if you are against it. If there is a problem in your marriage that might be lessened by the utilization of errotic images, then I might suggest you re-evaluate your position. I think errotic images can enhance many marriages with mininal ill effects. I remain open to reconsidering my position.

I am interested in improving the conciseness and helpfulness of my postings. Thank you for your input. I do not see a particular change that you are suggesting, but I will give your overall intent a place in my mind for reconsideration, or marinating.

I took the name Quipper to mean a person who makes Quips, short phrases. But I think you may be correct about it being a type of fish. I did not try to look it up before I took the name. Thank you for bringing that meaning to my attention.

It sounds like your Church is an important part of your life with your wife. I hope your aproach works out for you. I am sure you have read the Love diet? The Love Diet Excerpt

Quipper

[ November 21, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]

Dear Star,

Have a nice Thanksgiving, and thank you for the time you have taken to give me counsel.

I am a little hard headed, so I don't always get things right away.

As I have mentioned, I believe more in forgiveness, attonement and repentance. My ideas of right and wrong are more how can deviants be helped. What programs can assist them? Waht strategies can work to keep their deviant and illegal tendencies in check.

Voyerism has a definition as a criminal act and a deviant sexual behavior.

JDNTX description of her husband's voyerism is clearly a deviant behavior, and I posted both on the side of self control, and strategies for management, and satiation through alternative means.

I don't know if JDNTX is in Texas, but if the law reads as you suggest, that a person with a reasonable expectation of privacy, being viewed. It is a technical point, and of little value to discuss. Under the law, the fact finder in the case, the jury or a judge, would have to take into account a number of factors to determine if the indiviudals being viewed, did in fact have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You spoke of a voyerism case in your experience, where a half window valance curtain was sufficient to be consdidered a reasonable expectation of privacy. If readers wish to be fully protected by the Voyerism Laws, it seems they would be better advised to have blinds or full curtains, rather than a half window valence curtain. But that is a technical gray area of the law, as I see it. Depending on the conditon of the window, which JDNTX did not fully describe, at the time her husband was standing on the air conditoner, still looking from below. When JDNTX husband was looking from above, It seemed that there were minimal curtains, or no curtains. That is a fuller explanation of my hesitation to say that JDNTX's husband was committing a crime. He was committing a deviant act, which was at least close to being criminal, and I agreed needed addressing. The way the JDNTX was addressing the issue, indignation was not working.

Indignation is a legitimate feeling, but the expression of the feeling of indigantion rarely leads to worokable solutions to problems

I rarely give advice on this board. I suggest ideas, for their consideration, for others to use their own judgement for cutting the tomatos with a knife that someday could be a murder weapon.

I feel fine with others posting alternative views. Raz and I have been on several threads, posting differing views and I felt that was constructive. I don't ask for your trust. Come along and give your view. Too often I am the lone reply post on a thread. I do try for balanace, and I hope the reason others don't post further replies to some threads is because I have given a wide range of balanced ideas.

Thanks again.

Quipper

Dear Takola,

There are a number of versions of the Bible. I have the Bible in Greek and Hebrew. The New Testament is in Greek, and the Old Testament is in Hebrew. I also have English translations, King James, and the Oxford version. When a question comes up, I will look at the Greek Words adn I use a Greek Word Study Guide. If I have questions, I ask experts. The Hebrew and Greek versions are generally uncontested, and any variatons are very minor, practically nil.

But I think you are more coming from an experiental basis and belief on pornography.

I am more concerned with what works, rather than what is in the Bible. I simply allowed myself to get drawn into a discussion of the Bible and Christianity. Public policy and personal choice are bigger issues with errotica.

I don't encourage my neighbors to use errotica. If it seems that it might help someone poting problems on this board, I have mentioned it.

Thanks for your ideas.

Quipper

Dear Petals,

I am trying to make my posts more concise and logical. You are correct that I am often reviing paragraphs striving for better logic.

My rationalization for my personal use of errotic images is a balance of factors. The potential harm versus the potential good or positive. Do you feel we should not discuss our personal use of pornography on the MB board?

You brought up the Bible, so I have been revising my wording on Matthew 5:28.

The human sex drive can be challenging to fulfill. Are there constructive ways in which errotic images can help to fulfill the drive, and reduce the temptation of sinful Adultery?

For me, the effect of visualizing errotic images during foreplay and sex with my wife enhances my climax. My performance is also enhanced in that the time required between climaxes is reduced. Going to work limp in the morning makes it less likely to find an embarrassing bulge in my pants, when out in public during the day.

Jesus admmonished us to avoid adultery by abstaining from looking at another woman with lust, as the idea of adultery would be formed in the heart. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus, but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.

The passage in Matthew 5:28 is an admonition against adultery. When I was single, I would sometimes look at a woman with lust. I was ready. I had a private place to go, I fully intended to attempt to make love to that woman.

The Greek word EPITHUMO is used in Matthew 5:28, meaning lust. The greek word MOICHENUSO, is used, meaning intending to commit adultery. Ordinarily, in the marital bedroom setting, errotic videos are used for oggling, with the intent to lust after the wife. Ther is no intent to penetrate the images on the screen. Some popular errotic videos are animated pictures,and there is no real woman after whom to lust.

Many Christians enjoy pornography to one extent or another. Most Christians, and other people agree that some discretion or judgement should be excersized in the distribution and viewing of pornography. Some Christian faiths teach their branch of Christianity without distinguishing between Christ's words, and their branch's extension of the Christ's teachings to cover pornography. I personally try to distinguish between what is actually Biblical, and what is an extension of Christ's teachings.

How can I make these paragraphs more clear or conscise?

Blessings

Quipper

Quipper,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't say that errotic materials cannot be misused. If a knife can be used for a murder, does that mean I should not use a knife to slice tomatos in my kitchen? <hr /></blockquote>No, I more equate it to the use of certain pesticides that have been banned for use because they harm everything they touch and their effects last a very long time. You are speaking of this as a common tool. Pornography has only one purpose for the viewer; to create lustful desires in the person viewing it. It is not a tool. You are advocating that a man get all worked up and horny over viewing naked women so he can fulfill his needs with a woman (who is essentially becomes an object). The woman has no place in this act other than for a man to put his pecker.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My purpose of posting on the MB board are to give people ideas for solving marital problems, and enhancing their marriages. <hr /></blockquote>Then you should reevaluate your ideas and substitute one’s that are not as destructive to people’s lives and relationships.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do not seek to convert you to employ or enjoy errotic images as I do. <hr /></blockquote>No, but you do seek to justify your use in your own bedroom seeming against the wishes of your wife. . You won’t convert me, but you seek to introduce it to the bedrooms of many people who are hurting and don’t understand the destruction it causes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Perhapa your extension of the principles in the Bible leads you to believe that you should speak against porn for religious reasons. <hr /></blockquote>I speak out against porn not for religious reasons, but because I have seen first hand how destructive it has been to marriages. The wives feel like less than a woman and very insecure and the man gets a distorted view of what love really is and perpetuates the feelings the woman have God’s command was for the man to honor the woman, not tear them down. God’s commands to avoid lusting after woman just confirms His wisdom on this matter.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do not attempt to persuade you that porn is good for you. I do not suggest that you try porn, if you are against it. <hr /></blockquote>But you are suggesting that your wife try porn in her bedroom when she is against it; as well as others.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If there is a problem in your marriage that might be lessened by the utilization of errotic images, then I might suggest you re-evaluate your position. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry, even of we were having a problem in that area, I would not use pornography. Kind of like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I remain open to reconsidering my position. <hr /></blockquote>I doubt that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am interested in improving the conciseness and helpfulness of my postings. Thank you for your input. I do not see a particular change that you are suggesting, but I will give your overall intent a place in my mind for reconsideration, or marinating. <hr /></blockquote>What was my overall intent?

S&C

Dear Steadfast,

Your overall intent is to say that you have observed that some individuals and some marriages have been adversely affected by the use of errotic images.

You seem to be saying that you believe that no one under any circumstances should view errotic images.

It seems to me that if you felt so stongly, that you would take the time to get some statistical studies that suport your premise. Your premise is that there is no value in any circumstnace for the use of errotic images. If that is so true, why are you unable to produce clear studies that demonstrate that.

I believe that the studies would be hard to do, and that the results would not be what you are looking for. I have reported the I have personally found, when I was single, that I found errotic images helped produce a more satiating climax. I report the same thing as a married man.

The number of hits on the intenet porn sites, and the number or marriages destroyed by porn do not correltate. The number of XXX magazines and XXX videos sold in a year do not correlate to the number of marriages destroyed by porn. There are probably more playboy type magazines sold than the total number of divorces in the country, per year.

Of the marriages destroyed by porn, what other factors were involved? What percentage of the marriages sought treatment for self-discipline issues? What percentage of those seeking treatment recieved relief from the afflictions?

If you are so concerned about the effects of pornography, you would have the statistics showing he most effetive treatments.

The problem with your making these kind of intolerant post on this board that you are, is that it encourages overly moralistic approaches by others.

What do you say to our men in the armed forces? What do you say to the mothers of the daughters in tghe countries where western Military forces are deployed. How many protituiton houses closed when the US military was asked to leave the Phillipines? How many daughters wen back to their families?

Overly moralistic approaches have backfired for some people. Have you read Married Girl's threads? JDNTX has been deleted, but ther was a woman who tried to apply an overly moralistic approach like you are suggesting, and did not seek treatment or intiate proceses for stiating a voyerism tendency.

What do you say to all the wives who are like Dean 790's wife. Dean's wife thinks he agrees with your abstance philosophy. In reality, there are a lot of husband going to topless and strip joints, without the knowledge of their wives.

I offered a supportive suggestion to you. I suggested The Love Diet. I took time to instll the link and check it. You did not do me the courtesy to say thanks, or I alread read that.

I appreciate your criticism, but I would also appreciate a little support mixed in. An acknowlegement of the support I tried to extend to you would be nice.

I think overall, that errotic images solve more probvlems than they create. If a criminal uses errotic images in teh process of working up to commit crimes, how many crimes dose the errotic images actually add to the number the would be committed even without errotic images?

How many crimes are prevented by the satiation of drives with the enhanced assitance of errotic images?

How many posters have you tired to help? How many are you just arguing with?

Quipper

[ November 22, 2003, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: steadfast and committed ]

Quipper,

Once again you have used smoke screens to avoid answering questions.

People have responded to you telling you about the effects of porn in their lives. You have heard how it makes women feel if their husbands were to view porn.

You have stated that your own wife won’t POJA regarding your use of porn in the bedroom. How do you think your wife feels when she sees you getting turned on by the image of another woman and then turning to her to have her finish the job the image cannot do? You see I believe you don’t respond to these questions because you don’t care what your wife feels about it. You only care about what you want.

Your alternative is to start making love to your wife’s heart and mind. Help her feel sexy, when the media tells her she’s not just because she’s not a 5’11” 120 lbs and a size 2. Be interested in the things she is interested in. What is your W’s favorite place to eat. When was the last time you took her out on a date to a romantic place, watched a chick flick with her; opened the car, or any other door for her. Praise her in front of your friends. Choose not to look at the girl in the short shorts and tight top when she walks past. Make her feel like she was the most important person, the sexiest woman, in your life and that no one else could turn you on the way she does.

You have real live studies right here on these boards of the pain porn causes. You’re getting feedback from real people, not pieces of paper with statistics that can be manipulated and set up to prove a predetermined result. Besides, you have been provided with a number of studies by Star* and Takola, why don’t you go back to those threads and respond to them. Star* has flat out told you that she has provided you with plenty of material but you have failed to produce anything to support what you advocate.

Why do you choose to ignore these people? Your use of porn is solely for your pleasure without regard for the feelings of your wife, plain and simple. Otherwise the two of you would be able establish a POJA that she would feel comfortable remaining in and you would not be seeking ways to get her to change her mind.

On top of that, you come here to a marriage building site and advocate something that most women would not want in their husband’s lives much less in their bedroom,. Advising one to seek selfish pleasure at the expense of the others self-esteem and worth.

BTW here’s a very sobering statistic regarding pornography and its effects on a viewer. An Interview worth reading

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I offered a supportive suggestion to you. I suggested The Love Diet. I took time to instll the link and check it. You did not do me the courtesy to say thanks, or I alread read that.<hr /></blockquote>While I have read this; made copies of it, provided to others and I think TMCM is one of the most experienced posters here, I failed to understand why you included it in your post. So I just chocked it up to one of your ways of trying to sidetrack the issues. Therefore I felt there was no need to offer any appreciation for it. When You offer something that is truly supportive of this site, then I will offer sincere thanks. I also promise that I will not patronize you with false words of sincerity and appreciation if I cannot truly offer it.

Have a nice day.

S&C

Dear Steadfast, (Note:Contains Graphic Language)

To clarify, my wife fluctuates on POJA. Sometimes she asks me not to turn off the video after we have finsished making love. Sometimes she objects to my turning on the video. If I get too low on the POJA scale I do not turn on the video.

Even if a wife is not enthusiastic about errotic images in the marital bedroom, many could probably tolerate the intrusion better, if advocates against pornography did not exaggerate the harm to be more than it actaully is. Also, a big value of the Bible is that we can extend many of hte princples from the Bible, into our lives of today. Many do not make a clear distinction between what is Biblical an what is an extension of Biblical principles. To me, that failure is an advocacy exaggeration.

Cetainly ther are poltical sensitivities here. I am not weighing in on the Victoria's Secret awards special.

Your idea of visulaizing love for my wife is a good idea. Personlly, I have massage instruction videos, which are helpful in finding ways to express affection in many awkward positions.

I am aware that a woman can be hurt by my oggling. I have ralated an incident with a girl friend before marriage. We went to a nudist beach, and I was oggling a voluptuous lady nudist volley ball player. My girl friend looked dejected, but said nothing was wrong. It took me a few seconds to figure out how to best handle the situatin, but I suggested that we go swimming. My girl friends eyes lit up, and we went swimming nude in the ocean. I was a little firghtened, because the water was cloudy, and I could not see but a few inches into the water. I was afraid my dangling weener might look like a meal to even a relatively small fish.

I do not dispute that there are problems with errotic images. I think your posts are not helping to solve what I see as a major problem. That is that many men are receiving less visual sataisfaction than optimally possible from an overflowing marital bedroom.

I have cited the number of play boy magazines and other errotic image magazines and videos, and suggested you compare those numbers with the number of divorces resulting from pornography. Someone cited one therapist with 300 sexual deviation cases. This is not representative of the case work of all therapists, because for a specialty area, therpaists in the region will refer specialized cases to a specialist therapaist. Certainly more than 300 men had viewed a playboy or other errotic images in the past 5 years. What is the ratio of viewers to problems? If there were more overflowing marital bedrooms, what would be the ratio of increased problems with habituation?

You are posting from an advocacy postion, and you are not putting the downside into its true perspective.

I brought up the problem of the Image of Western Military forces in developing and occupied countries. I suggested that errotic images could provide more releif to the daughters of the citizens of those countries. Do you wish nt to comment on that?

Thank you for acknowledging that you had read The Love Diet. That was for you personally aside from the ideas we are debating.

Wher do you stand on the questin of teh overlapping of the insufficient marital bedroom i relatin to drives for deviant sexual beahvior? My postistin is, that if a woman feels her husband is having a tendincy to sexual deviance, that both increasing satiation in the martial bedroom, and increasing self-discipline thorugh therapeutic options is advidisable.

Thank you for the reference to Ted Bundy. 80% of those in jail, and in jail for committing crmes while under the influence of intoxicating substances. Ted Bundy does not explain the role of alcohol in his crimes. Ted Bundy mentions detective m agazines and TV violence. Ted mentions his informal survey of prisoners, revealing a concurrence of pornography use among criminals.

Often criminals lack social skills and self-discipline, and have undeveoped areas of ethical thinking. Is pornography a cause of these conditons, or a result of these conditons.

What about Ted Bundy's girl friends? Did Ted Bundy have an overfowing bedroom with his girl friend?

I personally believe that there are a number of effective alternatives to prison, that are effective in increasing socialization. If effective programs were used early in the career of a criminal, recidvism would be recduced, and crime rates would be reduced. Teh Salvation Army and Catholic charities help many offenders re-enter society after prison.

Blaming crime on pornography is an advocacy statement, and not helpful to women who are trying to find wasy to help husbands, or lovers, suspected of deviant tendencies. It is not helpful for husbands, who have devienat tendencies, to be able to let their wives know what they can do to be helpful.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

[ November 22, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]

I am sorry Quipper but you walked right into this one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I was a little firghtened, because the water was cloudy, and I could not see but a few inches into the water. I was afraid my dangling weener might look like a meal to even a relatively small fish. <hr /></blockquote>You know, many are going to read this post and wish the "small" fish had done it's job oh so many years ago. Then maybe we wouldn't have been having this discussion with you today....

j/k

Couldn't resist.

DZZZ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do not dispute that there are problems with errotic images. I think your posts are not helping to solve what I see as a major problem. That is that many men are receiving less visual sataisfaction than optimally possible from an overflowing marital bedroom. <hr /></blockquote>Quipper ---

I took this quote from your last post. I think the point many here are trying to make is that you have a problem:

you idolize sexual images

which you are not dealing with:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To clarify, my wife fluctuates on POJA. Sometimes she asks me not to turn off the video after we have finsished making love. Sometimes she objects to my turning on the video. If I get too low on the POJA scale I do not turn on the video. <hr /></blockquote>NOTE *** She probably is attempting to 'accommodate' your desires at the EXPENSE of her own and allowing you to overrun her boundaries - because she loves you. THIS WILL BACKFIRE eventually. Her boundaries and values will eventually smack her - and results will probably be the end or your relationship. POJA is not a SCALE.

and the bottom line is YOUR POSTS ARE A PROBLEM.

You are posting information which is NOT TRUE, in a manner that is REVOLTINGLY SELF SERVING, to people who are needing solutions not YOUR PROBLEMS added to theirs.

IF you were my employee - I would fire you.

If you were my spouse - I would divorce you.

YOUR methods are manipulative, childish, revoltingly self serving, insincere, and obnoxious. WHY are you attempting to justify behavior that is so disgustingly out of line and WRONG? Why don't you grow up and accept the fact that you need to make some changes and MAKE them - instead of attempting to justify to those who already know how wrong you are?

Idolatry is a SIN. You are idolizing your own body.

Deal with it. Ask forgiveness for it - and get on with life.

You could be a worthwhile person, but as the person you are now - you aren't worth the time it takes to have you banned from this site. You don't answer direct questions - you avoid them. Your manner of posting STINKS.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Often criminals lack social skills and self-discipline, and have undeveoped areas of ethical thinking. <hr /></blockquote>Your posting implies this STRONGLY --- are you posting from within a prison???

Jan

Dear Steadfast, (Note: Contains explicit ideas)

Some further ideas from my last reply.

There are downsides to pronograpy. I will try to formulate a better balance in my posts on the downside of porn.

There are other things that are useful but have some dangers. You did not like my analogy to a kitchen knife. But Automobiles, guns and knives are used in crimes. Accidents occur because of a use of Automibiles, Planes, Trains, machinery, boilers, guns and knives. Why are you so concerned about the small harm from errotic images, as compared with other dangers in the society?

Maybe you are satisfied with a half full marital bedroom. I would like mine 7/8 full. Errotic images provide a more satiating experience for me. Your suggestion of working from images of my wife is a nice step, but fall short of 7/8 for me.
I feel you are trying to block those of us married folks who are trying to work through RH and POJA to get our marital bedroom a little fuller.

Quipper

Dear DZZZ,

Thanks for your post. I know that you are genuinely trying to be supportive, and you are holding back saying what you really think.

Blessings,

Quipper

Quipper,

If you want to convince a greater population of people that pornography is healthy, let us see what it has done for you, stop avoiding direct questions, and trying to turn the argument around on other posters. THIS undermines your credibility and WHY you do not answer concisely.

I agree with SJ that your wife is sacrificing herself for you.

I agree with S&C that allowing another woman to get you aroused is insulting to your wife. Not long ago, another poster said his wife was insulted when he was not "hard" when they started trying to have sex. He thought she probably should be. Hmm...She's insulted because her own image wasn't enough to arouse her H and the H said she probably should be. Now that's a thought isn't it?

A wife wants to be ALL it takes to turn on her H, but pornography PRECLUDES (for Star* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) that possibility. Even if the image of the wife alone does turn the man on, how does the W know it wasn't something else?

You said:

Do you feel we should not discuss our personal use of pornography on the MB board?

I think that is fine, to discuss it. When discussing it, discuss only YOUR perspective and do not start calling people prudish who do not believe in its use. That's called the 'ad hominem fallacy' when you attack the person and not the argument.

You brought up the Bible, so I have been revising my wording on Matthew 5:28.

Actually, you were continuing discussing the Bible here and I responded to it, as did other.

The human sex drive can be challenging to fulfill.

I contend that is so only when certain factors exist, such as extreme masturbation (which has been shown to increase drive) or in cases of elevated hormone production (or ingestion).

Are there constructive ways in which errotic images can help to fulfill the drive, and reduce the temptation of sinful Adultery?

No IMO. I think pornography is adultery. It involves a REAL LIVE woman.

For me, the effect of visualizing errotic images during foreplay and sex with my wife enhances my climax.

Okay, I'm glad to see you speaking for yourself.

However, let me ask this: Does your climax need to be enhanced? For me, a climax is a climax. Some are more intense, some less, but my H's performance (along with my particular preferences of the moment and expressing them) is what counts. I do not need erotic images in my bedroom. For H, *I* am the erotic image. That's a tremendous compliment to me and has bolstered my self-esteem.

My performance is also enhanced in that the time required between climaxes is reduced.

??? Meaning you can ejaculate more than once in a session, or you are able to get your wife to multiple orgasms? If it's the former, that seems incredibly selfish of you.

Going to work limp in the morning makes it less likely to find an embarrassing bulge in my pants, when out in public during the day.

It sounds like you have lust issues all around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jesus admmonished us to avoid adultery by abstaining from looking at another woman with lust, as the idea of adultery would be formed in the heart. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus,

Perhaps there were models that aided in the production of these works, but they were not REAL people. The photographs of today are of REAL people. Sure there are touch ups, but most often, there is a person who has actually exposed him/herself to others. Because you're buying, that means this will continue to occur. You are paying for someone else's sexual immorality and using it to keep yourself in some confines.

Let me bring this up also. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and other societal throw-aways. Do you think that means we should consort with such people? Hmm...We may associate with them, but not "purchase their wares." On the same token, He told us not to associate with those who call themselves Christians but who act in a depraved manner.

but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.

So, if one looks at more than one woman to look at them in lust, it's okay? And if you lust after a woman's likeness, that's not the same?

Hmm...Would paintings of your wife arouse you? Would photos or drawings?

You said "connotation." That's just an impression. It doesn't necessarily mean to rule out other things that it adresses.

But I think photographic porn does fall under this. It's an actual person. How many models and actresses have been stalked?

Or in movies, they are ACTUALLY having sex. It's a private, exclusive, and sacred act that is defiled by the presence of other people and faking.

Nudity represents vulnerability. Jesus was stripped near to naked on the cross.

When a woman poses for photos or has sex for money (essentially what porn is), she has made herself vulnerable (and so have men). If she is not mocked, she can consider herself desirable.

But any way you cut it, she is mocked because her sexuality is used and abused.

The passage in Matthew 5:28 is an admonition against adultery. When I was single, I would sometimes look at a woman with lust. I was ready. I had a private place to go, I fully intended to attempt to make love to that woman.

This is vague. What do you mean? I could infer that rape was on your mind.

The Greek word EPITHUMO is used in Matthew 5:28, meaning lust. The greek word MOICHENUSO, is used, meaning intending to commit adultery. Ordinarily, in the marital bedroom setting, errotic videos are used for oggling, with the intent to lust after the wife.

Then why not just ogle the wife instead of using her as a rececptacle for your bodily fluids?

Ther is no intent to penetrate the images on the screen. Some popular errotic videos are animated pictures,and there is no real woman after whom to lust.

But, IMO, it still feeds lust.

Many Christians enjoy pornography to one extent or another.

Perhaps. I've read about those that do. Many of them...I wonder about their salvation. Others, like my FIL, I wonder...I just wonder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Most Christians, and other people agree that some discretion or judgement should be excersized in the distribution and viewing of pornography.

Many Christians and non-Christians think the discretion should lead to elimination.

To view a woman in her nudity or sexuality...she may perceive that it's "just the cameraman" or it's just "GQ" types looking at her, wanting to make love to her. It's not. It's everyone who has the inclination to look at women, even other women. Did they truly make themselves sexually available to EVERYONE, even the scum of the earth? No. I doubt it. When I imagined men falling in love with me when I was single, they were always dashing, upright men, not sex-crazed maniacs. Even women who would pose in a photo shoot would not appreciate candid shots taken of themselves nude. Many lawsuits have been battled over this.

Some Christian faiths teach their branch of Christianity without distinguishing between Christ's words, and their branch's extension of the Christ's teachings to cover pornography.

Sometimes you have to make a decision on such things. Maturity brings the discernment necessary.

I personally try to distinguish between what is actually Biblical, and what is an extension of Christ's teachings.

What is wrong with extensions? Did God say, "Bill Gates should not run an empire, therefore when he begins to monopolize the computer software world, the powers that be must divide up his company?" Or did he say, "Thou shalt not run red lights?" Or did He say, "Thou shalt not have an epidural when delivering a baby?" The Bible says, "Wine is a mocker." But then Luke told Paul to drink wine. Jesus turned water to wine.

Discretion. Spiritual discernment. Don't knock it til you try it.

How can I make these paragraphs more clear or conscise?

I think I gave you some examples above of unclear communications.

Blessings

Quipper

One more personal thought, Quipper. If it takes pornography to enhance your sex-life, how are your communications with your wife about sex and during it? This goes a looooooong way toward fulfilling sex.

Petals

[ November 22, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

Dear Jan, (Reader Advisory: Contains explicit ideas.)

Most of the ideas I have posted, I first posted on debate threads under Emotional Needs. I had already exposed the ideas to the challenge of debate by experienced MB posters.

Since it has been brought to my attention that some people are sensitive about some issues such as porn and sexual deviancy, I have started putting warning lables on my posts which contain graphic or sexual details. I am interested in understanding objections to the use of porn in the marital bedroom, in order to give a more balanced view in my posts on those problems.

Perhaps it seems to you that I seek justification of my actions. I have been able, for whatever reason, to get better POJA with my wife since I started posting about a year ago. I dropped out for about 6 months, and started back up again in maybe August. Frankly, I should probably spend my time doing other things, than posting here.

The reason I share my stories of my marriage here, is partly to think things out for myself, and partly to illustrate points that I am trying to make to whoever I am posting to. If I wanted to start arguments, I would post on the Emotional Needs Board, where, it seems to me, many are more interested in arguing, than helping anyone.

I think the recent arguing under Other Topics has helped me improve my posting techniques. I appreciate your sharing with me that you would like me to not post to MB anymore. But you have the option to not read any of my posts. Another option is to follow me around the board, and post a second opinion. Raz and I have posted on several threads, different approaches to poster's problems. I thought it was farily constructive.

Are you projecting about my posting to justify my postions and actions? Is it possible that you are posting to justify your postions and actions? It seems that many who post under Emotional Needs are posting for catharsis or justificaton.

I did not understand the point you were making about prisons and crime. Could you eleaborate?

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 children, still struggling

[ November 22, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]

Dear Steadfast,

I re-read your suggstions of how I should trat my wife. You point out that waatching hte firl inthe short pants when I am with my wife, is an optin. I could ignore her, couldn't I. Some people are carfull practiced in ignoring others. They just don't look. Thank you for pointing out that I theororetically control the direction of focus of my eyeballs. I'll have to do some practicing, "Oh look at theis delicious looking egg salad!" Find something else to look at and talk about.

I do try to be attentive to my wife in terms of the Love Diet. Since I have been applying the principles in that book, my home life has imporoved.

Blessings,

Quipper

Quipper ----

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Most of the ideas I have posted, I first posted on debate threads under Emotional Needs. I had already exposed the ideas to the challenge of debate by experienced MB posters. <hr /></blockquote>This was my point - you aren't LEARNING from the other posters, you are STILL posting the same ideas - unchanged - as if your only point is to DEBATE or ARGUE or JUSTIFY your position. We do not agree - we are not going to JUSTIFY you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Since it has been brought to my attention that some people are sensitive about some issues such as porn and sexual deviancy, I have started putting warning lables on my posts which contain graphic or sexual details. I am interested in understanding objections to the use of porn in the marital bedroom, in order to give a more balanced view in my posts on those problems. <hr /></blockquote>The objection is that pornography is wrong. It's abusive to women. It's a means of making a woman appear as an OBJECT rather than a person. There is no balance here - your posts are NOT balanced. They are highly oblique and blind to the FACT that WOMEN ARE PEOPLE too. YOU appear incapable of understanding that concept.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Perhaps it seems to you that I seek justification of my actions. I have been able, for whatever reason, to get better POJA with my wife since I started posting about a year ago. I dropped out for about 6 months, and started back up again in maybe August. Frankly, I should probably spend my time doing other things, than posting here.
<hr /></blockquote>You've pushed back her boundaries further? Or, you've learned to ignore her objections better. Or, you've learned to manipulate what you ask to get a positive response?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The reason I share my stories of my marriage here, is partly to think things out for myself, and partly to illustrate points that I am trying to make to whoever I am posting to. If I wanted to start arguments, I would post on the Emotional Needs Board, where, it seems to me, many are more interested in arguing, than helping anyone. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe they just aren't so easily led around the bend? Maybe they've BTDT and have some basic knowledge of your behaviors and how they affect others?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think the recent arguing under Other Topics has helped me improve my posting techniques. I appreciate your sharing with me that you would like me to not post to MB anymore. But you have the option to not read any of my posts. Another option is to follow me around the board, and post a second opinion. Raz and I have posted on several threads, different approaches to poster's problems. I thought it was farily constructive. <hr /></blockquote>I didn't tell you not to post --- I said, your manner stinks. You post to get attention and to further YOUR argument - rather than to learn. If you actually came her to learn something or to gleen information - then you would be making an attempt to hear those who post to you - rather than furthering your argument against the common sense they suggest you use.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Are you projecting about my posting to justify my postions and actions? Is it possible that you are posting to justify your postions and actions? It seems that many who post under Emotional Needs are posting for catharsis or justificaton.
<hr /></blockquote>This is a marriage building site. Not a porn justification site. If you choose to post something that would be beneficial and uplifting to 'marriage' then go right ahead and post it. Pornography and the use of it is detrimental to marriage and destructive to the 'value' men should be placing on their spouses. Anytime you are tearing down the institution of marriage through the demise of the constituants - you are not posting something that would be a constructive addition to a marriage building site.

Pornography is created through the abuse and misuse of women and girls - WHY would any sane man want to perpetuate the creation and development of such rancid photos and call it gratification? As someone who supports this kind of abuse, you are considered an abuser as well. Is this your desire? You WANT to be known as an abuser?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I did not understand the point you were making about prisons and crime. Could you eleaborate? <hr /></blockquote>It was actually YOUR point:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Often criminals lack social skills and self-discipline, and have undeveoped areas of ethical thinking. <hr /></blockquote>Your lack of developed areas of ethical thinking and justification of anti-social behaviors that lack self-discipline would indicate by your own statement that you are possibly a criminal... Question was, are you posting this from prison? Are you a criminal as your posting behaviors would indicate? Your ethical values are decidedly lacking, as per your own posts - is this actually an indication that you might be a sex offender - posting your demented views for justification of your crimes?

Was that clear enough?

Jan

Dear Jan, SJ Trouble, (Reader Caution, Contains explicit ideas)

I wonder if Miachael Jackson will be allowed to bring his laptop to prison, with wireless internet access.

Why is it important for you to categorize me as a criminal, or as a citizen with a top secret clearnace? In prison, in a hlf way house, or out of prison?

The question that is important to me, is how can I improve the quality and balance of ideas for assistance I am providing in my posts to those who seem to be asking for ideas for help with their marital problems.

It has been brought to my attention that some subjects are upsetting to some readers. So I have been trying to remember to put a Reader Advisory notice at the top of my posts that could cause discomfort to someone with certain types of backgrounds.

You are entitled to your opinion that all pornography should be burned. If I devised a switch to put clothes on all the nude pictures, I suppose you would pull the switch. A father(Douglas Fairbanks?) of a playboy model, recently presented his daughter with a copy of Playboy, with clothes artfully painted on her nude pictures. That is your ideal, right?

My opinion is different from yours.

You believe that seductively dressed models demean womanhood. I may agree that my enjoyment of my porn with my wife does not depend upon the Vicrotia Secrets Awards show. There may be over-commercialization of women. The Greeks used to hold athletic events, for men, in the nude. Perhaps that was exploitation of the male nude body, and demasculating.

How can I make this up to you? On this board, some women are trying to find ways to get their husbands back. Some women have neglected their share of the housework. Some women have had discovered affairs. Whatever the challenge or its origin, they seek to improve their relations with their husbands. What do you suggest for them? What would be good effective ideas to improve marital raltions. To me, improving the martial relations in the marital bedroom is a good place to start.

I think women would be well advised to look for ways to increase satiation for their husbands. In my opinion, based on some research findings, errotic images in the marital bedroom increases satiation. Many wives and husbands have affairs, that might have been prevented by increased satiation in the marital bedroom.

I have not figured out what BTDT means.

You make some unflattering coments about my POJA that I have with my wife on veiwing errotic images. I don't see anything wrong with saying, "Honey, if I help you with more than my share of the laundry, can we watch my favorite video?" Is that manipulation? I think it is ordinary marital negoitating. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. I think you could edit your remarks to be less scathing in your attack on me, personally, and my marriage.

People come here looking for workable soultions. You seem to be more interestd in setting up roadblocks.

I hear that you and some other MB Mega posters are very anti-porn. I suggest that you are not serving your best self-interests or the interests of those who are trying to improve their marriages. The problem is not that I refuse to learn. The situation is that you and I have a different set of priorites. You feel anti porn is paramount. I feel that saving and improving marriage is more important that the sensibilities of a vocal minority.

By insulting me personlly you are demonstrating that you are an advocacy poster, first, and only secondarily intersted inb helping others. You have not share much of your own marriage in your post. I generally share some of my personal problems or struggles in my posts. I feel that you are simply looking for reasons to discredit me, rather than trying to find better alternatives to achieve the same ends, of improved satiation.

Blessings

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

[ November 23, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You feel anti porn is paramount. <hr /></blockquote>Soooooo...You're a mind reader?

Actually, you're the one who started this whole discussion from what I can see.

You're the one who set out to PROVE that porn is okay.

There are many statistics for and against porn. And you will not prove it's okay by the Bible. Sorry...won't happen.

You can make suggestions that aren't too crude on this website. That is fine.

I have held amicable conversations with men and women who use porn. I even put my own stipulations on its use (it must be of me for my H to use it). We've discussed masturbation.

The folks with whom we were discussing were open. They made a decision, end of story.

You, however, go round and round, spouting the same stuff. When you are backed into a corner, you attack the poster, not the argument. Why not the argument? Because there's nothing more to add, so you try to make the poster out to be bad. Like accusing Jan of making it paramount to make sure people don't use porn and that she's here to set up roadblocks, while you try to paint it as innocent a past time as baseball. A personal word about Jan's character: She has done more to help me than most anyone here. She did not put up roadblocks for me to stumble over. Yet it seems that you intend for people to trip over your advice. You want them to notice it. You want them to have a problem with it. You want it to be hashed out. You want the other poster to get angry and bash you so you can discount their position.

You said that victims of sexual assault actually appreciate porn. Well, I believe you've been talking to a number of victims at this website, and just about all of them say the same thing. Next, I expect you'll begin to blame the victims for needing something to pin the guilt of their assault on.

But, in the same breath as you "speak for" SA survivors, you go on about how okay it is for their privacy to be intruded upon, as long as one remains on his own property.

You make incendiary comments, not just objective observations, as one who is truly seeking to present both sides of an argument.

Tagging off, for now,

Petals

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
 Dear Jan, SJ Trouble, (Reader Caution, Contains explicit ideas)

I wonder if Miachael Jackson will be allowed to bring his laptop to prison, with wireless internet access.<hr /></blockquote>Michael Jackson isn't posting to MB --- but if he were posting here as you are, I would be finding the same problems with his alledged perversion that I'm finding with yours.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
Why is it important for you to categorize me as a criminal, or as a citizen with a top secret clearnace? In prison, in a hlf way house, or out of prison?<hr /></blockquote>It was a comment about YOUR comment - not my desire to categorize you, but rather your own catagorization of specific types of people - which you fit into very well.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
The question that is important to me, is how can I improve the quality and balance of ideas for assistance I am providing in my posts to those who seem to be asking for ideas for help with their marital problems. <hr /></blockquote>How can the perpetual continuation of the perversion which you portray be of any assistance to anyone? It certainly isn't helping the women who are being abused through the production and use of pornography.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
It has been brought to my attention that some subjects are upsetting to some readers. So I have been trying to remember to put a Reader Advisory notice at the top of my posts that could cause discomfort to someone with certain types of backgrounds.<hr /></blockquote>Your *reader advisory* is simply another method you have chosen to use mocking the people of this forum. You don't instill discomfort - your version of reality is perverse and disgusting and not in any way helpful to people - perverts rarely HELP anyone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:

You are entitled to your opinion that all pornography should be burned. If I devised a switch to put clothes on all the nude pictures, I suppose you would pull the switch. A father(Douglas Fairbanks?) of a playboy model, recently presented his daughter with a copy of Playboy, with clothes artfully painted on her nude pictures. That is your ideal, right? <hr /></blockquote>I have no problem with nudity. I'm an artist, the human body is lovingly created and beautiful to look at. LUST, which you propose through the continued abuse of the body through the idolization of pornography, is not beautiful - it is disgusting, leaving a film of filth from the abuse of the human body. Painting clothing upon pornographic models would not improve the abusive misuse of their bodies, nor would it sanctify their abusers.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:

My opinion is different from yours.<hr /></blockquote>Finally, a statement of fact that rings true - and can be accepted as understanding on your part.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:

You believe that seductively dressed models demean womanhood. I may agree that my enjoyment of my porn with my wife does not depend upon the Vicrotia Secrets Awards show. There may be over-commercialization of women. The Greeks used to hold athletic events, for men, in the nude. Perhaps that was exploitation of the male nude body, and demasculating. <hr /></blockquote>Exploitiation of any person is degrading, abusive, and dehumanizing, male or female.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:

How can I make this up to you? On this board, some women are trying to find ways to get their husbands back. Some women have neglected their share of the housework. Some women have had discovered affairs. Whatever the challenge or its origin, they seek to improve their relations with their husbands. What do you suggest for them? What would be good effective ideas to improve marital raltions. To me, improving the martial relations in the marital bedroom is a good place to start. <hr /></blockquote>The idea of you making anything up to me sickens me - however, you might start by actually LEARNING something instead of continuing to portray yourself as an innocent attempting to right the world, you could stop lying to yourself and others. No one I've noticed posting to you - approves, agrees with, or accepts what you are saying as truth - they are all attempting to tell you that what you are saying is disgusting and perverse - yet you so arrogantly perceive to be misunderstood??? Give me a break - are you truly so ignorant as to believe we don't 'understand' you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:

I think women would be well advised to look for ways to increase satiation for their husbands. In my opinion, based on some research findings, errotic images in the marital bedroom increases satiation. Many wives and husbands have affairs, that might have been prevented by increased satiation in the marital bedroom. <hr /></blockquote>By this statement, I should have a wonderful marriage - one that was permanent and lasting. My marriage ended two years ago - not because I wasn't good enough in the bedroom, but rather because my H didn't want a wife and family. IF what you describe as 'satiation in the bedroom' worked - then many of the marriages where porn is a problem would be wonderful intities where both are satisfied ----- it has to do with more than SEX. SEX is not the only part of a marriage that needs to work for a marriage to continue.

In case you haven't noticed --- there aren't many men posting in support of your perversion.... Isn't that telling you something?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
I have not figured out what BTDT means. <hr /></blockquote>Been there done that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
You make some unflattering coments about my POJA that I have with my wife on veiwing errotic images. I don't see anything wrong with saying, "Honey, if I help you with more than my share of the laundry, can we watch my favorite video?" Is that manipulation? I think it is ordinary marital negoitating. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. I think you could edit your remarks to be less scathing in your attack on me, personally, and my marriage. <hr /></blockquote>IF you are not pushing her boundaries by doing this - fine. If - as you indicate in another post specifically to lovemyex: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> My wife ordinarily has a 3 minute rejection cycle. She will reject an idea of mine and get perturbed if I repeat the request within about a 3 minute period. When I get rejected, I back off for three minutes, and fashion a new approach, or drop the issue. I may persist on sometining for 7 or 8 Three minute cycles, if it is imortant to me. Usually the second or third approach is all it takes. <hr /></blockquote>---- you constantly are pushing her boundaries, then NO that is NOT POJA --- she's conceding to you to get you to SHUT UP. She's not enthusiastically agreeing with you --- under these circumstances. If you were to treat your boss this way - I bet you wouldn't have a job very long... Try it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
People come here looking for workable soultions. You seem to be more interestd in setting up roadblocks. <hr /></blockquote>Pornography: visual stimulation through the abuse of the human body - is a workable solution???? Excuse me while I BARF.

What roadblocks have I set up??? Asking you to be responsible for your choices and posts? Asking that you not post stupid behaviorisms for people to follow? Suggesting that you at least learn from the responses you get from other posters, instead of ignoring them? Oh --- I get it --- I'm a roadblock to you getting across your perverted point of view to others - because I represent a different perspective????

Ahhhh - fresh air...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
I hear that you and some other MB Mega posters are very anti-porn. I suggest that you are not serving your best self-interests or the interests of those who are trying to improve their marriages. The problem is not that I refuse to learn. The situation is that you and I have a different set of priorites. You feel anti porn is paramount. I feel that saving and improving marriage is more important that the sensibilities of a vocal minority. <hr /></blockquote>Have you noticed yet that YOU are a minority of ONE --- hell bent on promoting pornography to people who completely disagree with your perspective? Your self-serving perversion is not shared by any other single poster here. Have you noticed this???

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quipper:
By insulting me personlly you are demonstrating that you are an advocacy poster, first, and only secondarily intersted inb helping others. You have not share much of your own marriage in your post. I generally share some of my personal problems or struggles in my posts. I feel that you are simply looking for reasons to discredit me, rather than trying to find better alternatives to achieve the same ends, of improved satiation.<hr /></blockquote>Specifically what is an 'advocacy poster'?

Helping others is being responsible for the choices and options a person posts as viable solutions to marrital problems.

I don't have to hunt and search for means of discrediting you --- I only have to copy from your posts... and simply point out the obvious. You do a fine job of discrediting yourself.

Jan

Dear MB readers,

I did a little resech on the Bible, and tried to put together my basis for my feelings.

I feel it is offensive to expand the Biblical principles into denominational or personal religious principles, without acknowledgint that the extentin is being made.

Revelations 22:18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plague described in this book. Oxford, 1977

I find it offensive to suggest taht Matthew 5:28 means a cautionary note on pornography, becaus pictures or images are not mentioned, and oggling, or enjoying errotic beauty is not discussed, and lusting after a spouse is not discussed.

Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfuly, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Oxford 1977

Blessings:

Quipper,
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging children, still struggling

*"Even if a wife is not enthusiastic about errotic images in the marital bedroom, many could probably tolerate the intrusion better, if advocates against pornography did not exaggerate the harm to be more than it actaully is."

Many could probably tolerate the intrusion better? Is that what a wife is really supposed to do? tolerate the intrusion of something that makes her uncomfortable? Something that goes against her moral belief system? to enhance the pleasure/gratification of a man during an act that is/was designed to be between one man and one woman? pleasure and gratification that should be derived from the experience with that one woman (namely, his wife)?
Many wives would tolerate it better if anti-porn advocates wouldn't exaggerate the harm? Ugh! nobody ever had to exaggerate the harm to me... I felt the pain, and it wasn't because I was pre-programmed by anti-porn advocates. Men are visualy stimulated, I know that, so it goes without saying that I know that my husband gets stimulated looking at pictures of naked woman, young, firm, well-endowed naked women... that hurts, it is adultery in the mind, he (and yes, I am insinuating you as well here) derives sexual gratification from someone other than his wife. Women are very relational so it is a betrayal in our eyes and mind no matter how anyone, including we wives ourselves try to explain it away, intuitively we feel it as betrayal, and it hurts. It fills a woman with all kinds of self doubt, all kinds of doubt about her husband, and gives rise to major insecurity issues, which from your own descriptions of your wife's behavior, your wife seems to be dealing with herself.
"so he likes 'em young?" (as I watch myself age unable to turn back the clock)
"he seems to prefer blondes" (even if I bleached my hair my dark thick eyebrows would stick out like blinding sun)
If you think your wife doesn't compare herself to those woman you are only fooling yourself, and much to your own detriment. If you think she doesn't feel intimidated by them, again, only fooling yourself. No matter how you parse words, she knows she's not enough for you, that hurts, wether she admits it to you or not, it hurts.

*"I do not dispute that there are problems with errotic images. I think your posts are not helping to solve what I see as a major problem. That is that many men are receiving less visual sataisfaction than optimally possible from an overflowing marital bedroom."

First of all, who ever said that you were entitled to the most visual satisfaction as is optimally possible? You are sounding very greedy here. What about your wife's optimal satisfaction, what if it was derived from knowing she was enough for you? knowing that her lovemaking with you was great in and of itself? Is she due her optimal satisfaction as well? It would seem you would be at an impass? You might suggest taking turns enjoying optimal satisfaction, but that could never work, because if you were to ever achieve yours she could never achieve hers (she would always know that you're only completely satisfied with optimal visual stimulation- which means pictures of other women naked, ones prettier, naughtier, younger, firmer, preferrable in countless ways).

*"I have cited the number of play boy magazines and other errotic image magazines and videos, and suggested you compare those numbers with the number of divorces resulting from pornography."

Okay, here is wear a logic course would come in handy. I haven't taken a real one (if you have, then shame on you, you should know better) but I can spot faulty reasoning when it becomes this obvious. you are talking apples and oranges, of course the number wouldn't correlate, they have nothing to do with each other statistically speaking. The numbers of porn sold and the numbers of divorces due to porn just don't work together, a lot of porn is sold to single people... but the lack of a statistic there doesn't negate the fact that there are divorces due to porn, due to the harm (that has not been exaggerated) that porn causes. I just recently heard of a friend of a friend going through that very thing, it almost happened to me.

*"I brought up the problem of the Image of Western Military forces in developing and occupied countries. I suggested that errotic images could provide more releif to the daughters of the citizens of those countries. Do you wish nt to comment on that?"

I realize that question was not asked of me, but WHAT?!?!

*"What about Ted Bundy's girl friends? Did Ted Bundy have an overfowing bedroom with his girl friend?"

Are you actually suggesting that if he had had an "overflowing" bedroom with his girlfriend and had been sexually satisfied (optimally) that his deviant urges would have fallen by the wayside and that man would/could have been a production member of society?

I often find myself shaking my head in disbelief when I read your posts... I don't have the time to read many, but the ones I've taken the effort to get through have pretty much made me question a lot about you. Though I think I understand you better than you would think I do, I just so completely disagree with the positions you uphold that it boggles my mind, but don't worry I won't lose any sleep over it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
raz

[ November 23, 2003, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: raz ]

Dear Jan, SJ Trouble (Reader Advisory: Contains explicit ideas)

Jan posted:
"How can the perpetual continuation of the perversion which you portray be of any assistance to anyone? It certainly isn't helping the women who are being abused through the production and use of pornography."

I don't know your personal history. If you would care to provide me a link, or copy some of your posts, I would be interested in trying to be considerate to your personal sensitivites.

You are posting as a advocate against all forms of pornography.

The question that I have raised, is, if a switch were technically devised to dress up all the nude pictures and statues, and films, videos, DVD,s eliminate all porn, and we threw the switch, what would happen to the sexual assault rate? What studies do you base those projections on?

There are indivdual cases related upon this board here which seem to suggest that pronograhy causes crime.

As I have stated, crime is caused by a lack of self discipline, a lack of social skills, and lapses in the development of ethical stages of reasoning. There are rehabilitation programs for crimnals and drug addicts which address these issues, and have good success rates in reducing recidivsm as comapred to recidivsim to prison.

For secretive sexaul deviants, the programs are less well developed, and the success rates have not yet been impressive, to my knowledge.

For a statistical demonstation that porn does not destroy marriages, I would suggest looking at the number of units of porn material sold, and the divorce rate.

I raise the question of the satiatin of our militaty men, and the positive role that porn can play in that stiation, and alliefing the frustratin of women and thrie families, who come in contact wtih our troops. What is your response?

You are expanding the porn debate beyond the marital bedroom, and I will try to help you understand the constructive role that errotic images play in our society, as a whole.

Blessings,

Quipper,
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

Dear Raz,

Thanks for posting. You may not have read my words, but I have complemented you, as saying that you and I had been on a few threads, posting divergent options for solving problems, and I thought it was constructive.

If there are ways I can express my divergent views more constructively in conjunction with your views, please let me know. I wanted to give you this quick response, and I will read and answer your post as a higher priority. I feel you are motivated to try to hep people with problems. Right now I am short of time.

I did honor your request that I not post further to your thread started ad <wife>

Blessings,

Quipper

[ November 24, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]