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Dear Steadfast, (Note: Contains explicit ideas)

Some further ideas from my last reply.

There are downsides to pronograpy. I will try to formulate a better balance in my posts on the downside of porn.

There are other things that are useful but have some dangers. You did not like my analogy to a kitchen knife. But Automobiles, guns and knives are used in crimes. Accidents occur because of a use of Automibiles, Planes, Trains, machinery, boilers, guns and knives. Why are you so concerned about the small harm from errotic images, as compared with other dangers in the society?

Maybe you are satisfied with a half full marital bedroom. I would like mine 7/8 full. Errotic images provide a more satiating experience for me. Your suggestion of working from images of my wife is a nice step, but fall short of 7/8 for me.
I feel you are trying to block those of us married folks who are trying to work through RH and POJA to get our marital bedroom a little fuller.

Quipper

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Dear DZZZ,

Thanks for your post. I know that you are genuinely trying to be supportive, and you are holding back saying what you really think.

Blessings,

Quipper

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Quipper,

If you want to convince a greater population of people that pornography is healthy, let us see what it has done for you, stop avoiding direct questions, and trying to turn the argument around on other posters. THIS undermines your credibility and WHY you do not answer concisely.

I agree with SJ that your wife is sacrificing herself for you.

I agree with S&C that allowing another woman to get you aroused is insulting to your wife. Not long ago, another poster said his wife was insulted when he was not "hard" when they started trying to have sex. He thought she probably should be. Hmm...She's insulted because her own image wasn't enough to arouse her H and the H said she probably should be. Now that's a thought isn't it?

A wife wants to be ALL it takes to turn on her H, but pornography PRECLUDES (for Star* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) that possibility. Even if the image of the wife alone does turn the man on, how does the W know it wasn't something else?

You said:


Do you feel we should not discuss our personal use of pornography on the MB board?

I think that is fine, to discuss it. When discussing it, discuss only YOUR perspective and do not start calling people prudish who do not believe in its use. That's called the 'ad hominem fallacy' when you attack the person and not the argument.

You brought up the Bible, so I have been revising my wording on Matthew 5:28.

Actually, you were continuing discussing the Bible here and I responded to it, as did other.

The human sex drive can be challenging to fulfill.

I contend that is so only when certain factors exist, such as extreme masturbation (which has been shown to increase drive) or in cases of elevated hormone production (or ingestion).

Are there constructive ways in which errotic images can help to fulfill the drive, and reduce the temptation of sinful Adultery?

No IMO. I think pornography is adultery. It involves a REAL LIVE woman.

For me, the effect of visualizing errotic images during foreplay and sex with my wife enhances my climax.

Okay, I'm glad to see you speaking for yourself.

However, let me ask this: Does your climax need to be enhanced? For me, a climax is a climax. Some are more intense, some less, but my H's performance (along with my particular preferences of the moment and expressing them) is what counts. I do not need erotic images in my bedroom. For H, *I* am the erotic image. That's a tremendous compliment to me and has bolstered my self-esteem.


My performance is also enhanced in that the time required between climaxes is reduced.

??? Meaning you can ejaculate more than once in a session, or you are able to get your wife to multiple orgasms? If it's the former, that seems incredibly selfish of you.

Going to work limp in the morning makes it less likely to find an embarrassing bulge in my pants, when out in public during the day.

It sounds like you have lust issues all around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jesus admmonished us to avoid adultery by abstaining from looking at another woman with lust, as the idea of adultery would be formed in the heart. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus,

Perhaps there were models that aided in the production of these works, but they were not REAL people. The photographs of today are of REAL people. Sure there are touch ups, but most often, there is a person who has actually exposed him/herself to others. Because you're buying, that means this will continue to occur. You are paying for someone else's sexual immorality and using it to keep yourself in some confines.

Let me bring this up also. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and other societal throw-aways. Do you think that means we should consort with such people? Hmm...We may associate with them, but not "purchase their wares." On the same token, He told us not to associate with those who call themselves Christians but who act in a depraved manner.


but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.

So, if one looks at more than one woman to look at them in lust, it's okay? And if you lust after a woman's likeness, that's not the same?

Hmm...Would paintings of your wife arouse you? Would photos or drawings?

You said "connotation." That's just an impression. It doesn't necessarily mean to rule out other things that it adresses.

But I think photographic porn does fall under this. It's an actual person. How many models and actresses have been stalked?

Or in movies, they are ACTUALLY having sex. It's a private, exclusive, and sacred act that is defiled by the presence of other people and faking.

Nudity represents vulnerability. Jesus was stripped near to naked on the cross.

When a woman poses for photos or has sex for money (essentially what porn is), she has made herself vulnerable (and so have men). If she is not mocked, she can consider herself desirable.

But any way you cut it, she is mocked because her sexuality is used and abused.


The passage in Matthew 5:28 is an admonition against adultery. When I was single, I would sometimes look at a woman with lust. I was ready. I had a private place to go, I fully intended to attempt to make love to that woman.

This is vague. What do you mean? I could infer that rape was on your mind.

The Greek word EPITHUMO is used in Matthew 5:28, meaning lust. The greek word MOICHENUSO, is used, meaning intending to commit adultery. Ordinarily, in the marital bedroom setting, errotic videos are used for oggling, with the intent to lust after the wife.

Then why not just ogle the wife instead of using her as a rececptacle for your bodily fluids?

Ther is no intent to penetrate the images on the screen. Some popular errotic videos are animated pictures,and there is no real woman after whom to lust.

But, IMO, it still feeds lust.

Many Christians enjoy pornography to one extent or another.

Perhaps. I've read about those that do. Many of them...I wonder about their salvation. Others, like my FIL, I wonder...I just wonder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Most Christians, and other people agree that some discretion or judgement should be excersized in the distribution and viewing of pornography.

Many Christians and non-Christians think the discretion should lead to elimination.

To view a woman in her nudity or sexuality...she may perceive that it's "just the cameraman" or it's just "GQ" types looking at her, wanting to make love to her. It's not. It's everyone who has the inclination to look at women, even other women. Did they truly make themselves sexually available to EVERYONE, even the scum of the earth? No. I doubt it. When I imagined men falling in love with me when I was single, they were always dashing, upright men, not sex-crazed maniacs. Even women who would pose in a photo shoot would not appreciate candid shots taken of themselves nude. Many lawsuits have been battled over this.


Some Christian faiths teach their branch of Christianity without distinguishing between Christ's words, and their branch's extension of the Christ's teachings to cover pornography.

Sometimes you have to make a decision on such things. Maturity brings the discernment necessary.

I personally try to distinguish between what is actually Biblical, and what is an extension of Christ's teachings.

What is wrong with extensions? Did God say, "Bill Gates should not run an empire, therefore when he begins to monopolize the computer software world, the powers that be must divide up his company?" Or did he say, "Thou shalt not run red lights?" Or did He say, "Thou shalt not have an epidural when delivering a baby?" The Bible says, "Wine is a mocker." But then Luke told Paul to drink wine. Jesus turned water to wine.

Discretion. Spiritual discernment. Don't knock it til you try it.


How can I make these paragraphs more clear or conscise?

I think I gave you some examples above of unclear communications.

Blessings

Quipper

One more personal thought, Quipper. If it takes pornography to enhance your sex-life, how are your communications with your wife about sex and during it? This goes a looooooong way toward fulfilling sex.

Petals


<small>[ November 22, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

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Dear Jan, (Reader Advisory: Contains explicit ideas.)

Most of the ideas I have posted, I first posted on debate threads under Emotional Needs. I had already exposed the ideas to the challenge of debate by experienced MB posters.

Since it has been brought to my attention that some people are sensitive about some issues such as porn and sexual deviancy, I have started putting warning lables on my posts which contain graphic or sexual details. I am interested in understanding objections to the use of porn in the marital bedroom, in order to give a more balanced view in my posts on those problems.

Perhaps it seems to you that I seek justification of my actions. I have been able, for whatever reason, to get better POJA with my wife since I started posting about a year ago. I dropped out for about 6 months, and started back up again in maybe August. Frankly, I should probably spend my time doing other things, than posting here.

The reason I share my stories of my marriage here, is partly to think things out for myself, and partly to illustrate points that I am trying to make to whoever I am posting to. If I wanted to start arguments, I would post on the Emotional Needs Board, where, it seems to me, many are more interested in arguing, than helping anyone.

I think the recent arguing under Other Topics has helped me improve my posting techniques. I appreciate your sharing with me that you would like me to not post to MB anymore. But you have the option to not read any of my posts. Another option is to follow me around the board, and post a second opinion. Raz and I have posted on several threads, different approaches to poster's problems. I thought it was farily constructive.

Are you projecting about my posting to justify my postions and actions? Is it possible that you are posting to justify your postions and actions? It seems that many who post under Emotional Needs are posting for catharsis or justificaton.

I did not understand the point you were making about prisons and crime. Could you eleaborate?

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 children, still struggling

<small>[ November 22, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

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Dear Steadfast,

I re-read your suggstions of how I should trat my wife. You point out that waatching hte firl inthe short pants when I am with my wife, is an optin. I could ignore her, couldn't I. Some people are carfull practiced in ignoring others. They just don't look. Thank you for pointing out that I theororetically control the direction of focus of my eyeballs. I'll have to do some practicing, "Oh look at theis delicious looking egg salad!" Find something else to look at and talk about.

I do try to be attentive to my wife in terms of the Love Diet. Since I have been applying the principles in that book, my home life has imporoved.

Blessings,

Quipper

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Quipper ----

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most of the ideas I have posted, I first posted on debate threads under Emotional Needs. I had already exposed the ideas to the challenge of debate by experienced MB posters. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was my point - you aren't LEARNING from the other posters, you are STILL posting the same ideas - unchanged - as if your only point is to DEBATE or ARGUE or JUSTIFY your position. We do not agree - we are not going to JUSTIFY you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since it has been brought to my attention that some people are sensitive about some issues such as porn and sexual deviancy, I have started putting warning lables on my posts which contain graphic or sexual details. I am interested in understanding objections to the use of porn in the marital bedroom, in order to give a more balanced view in my posts on those problems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The objection is that pornography is wrong. It's abusive to women. It's a means of making a woman appear as an OBJECT rather than a person. There is no balance here - your posts are NOT balanced. They are highly oblique and blind to the FACT that WOMEN ARE PEOPLE too. YOU appear incapable of understanding that concept.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps it seems to you that I seek justification of my actions. I have been able, for whatever reason, to get better POJA with my wife since I started posting about a year ago. I dropped out for about 6 months, and started back up again in maybe August. Frankly, I should probably spend my time doing other things, than posting here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've pushed back her boundaries further? Or, you've learned to ignore her objections better. Or, you've learned to manipulate what you ask to get a positive response?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The reason I share my stories of my marriage here, is partly to think things out for myself, and partly to illustrate points that I am trying to make to whoever I am posting to. If I wanted to start arguments, I would post on the Emotional Needs Board, where, it seems to me, many are more interested in arguing, than helping anyone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe they just aren't so easily led around the bend? Maybe they've BTDT and have some basic knowledge of your behaviors and how they affect others?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the recent arguing under Other Topics has helped me improve my posting techniques. I appreciate your sharing with me that you would like me to not post to MB anymore. But you have the option to not read any of my posts. Another option is to follow me around the board, and post a second opinion. Raz and I have posted on several threads, different approaches to poster's problems. I thought it was farily constructive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't tell you not to post --- I said, your manner stinks. You post to get attention and to further YOUR argument - rather than to learn. If you actually came her to learn something or to gleen information - then you would be making an attempt to hear those who post to you - rather than furthering your argument against the common sense they suggest you use.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you projecting about my posting to justify my postions and actions? Is it possible that you are posting to justify your postions and actions? It seems that many who post under Emotional Needs are posting for catharsis or justificaton.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a marriage building site. Not a porn justification site. If you choose to post something that would be beneficial and uplifting to 'marriage' then go right ahead and post it. Pornography and the use of it is detrimental to marriage and destructive to the 'value' men should be placing on their spouses. Anytime you are tearing down the institution of marriage through the demise of the constituants - you are not posting something that would be a constructive addition to a marriage building site.

Pornography is created through the abuse and misuse of women and girls - WHY would any sane man want to perpetuate the creation and development of such rancid photos and call it gratification? As someone who supports this kind of abuse, you are considered an abuser as well. Is this your desire? You WANT to be known as an abuser?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did not understand the point you were making about prisons and crime. Could you eleaborate? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was actually YOUR point:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Often criminals lack social skills and self-discipline, and have undeveoped areas of ethical thinking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your lack of developed areas of ethical thinking and justification of anti-social behaviors that lack self-discipline would indicate by your own statement that you are possibly a criminal... Question was, are you posting this from prison? Are you a criminal as your posting behaviors would indicate? Your ethical values are decidedly lacking, as per your own posts - is this actually an indication that you might be a sex offender - posting your demented views for justification of your crimes?

Was that clear enough?

Jan

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Dear Jan, SJ Trouble, (Reader Caution, Contains explicit ideas)

I wonder if Miachael Jackson will be allowed to bring his laptop to prison, with wireless internet access.

Why is it important for you to categorize me as a criminal, or as a citizen with a top secret clearnace? In prison, in a hlf way house, or out of prison?

The question that is important to me, is how can I improve the quality and balance of ideas for assistance I am providing in my posts to those who seem to be asking for ideas for help with their marital problems.

It has been brought to my attention that some subjects are upsetting to some readers. So I have been trying to remember to put a Reader Advisory notice at the top of my posts that could cause discomfort to someone with certain types of backgrounds.

You are entitled to your opinion that all pornography should be burned. If I devised a switch to put clothes on all the nude pictures, I suppose you would pull the switch. A father(Douglas Fairbanks?) of a playboy model, recently presented his daughter with a copy of Playboy, with clothes artfully painted on her nude pictures. That is your ideal, right?

My opinion is different from yours.

You believe that seductively dressed models demean womanhood. I may agree that my enjoyment of my porn with my wife does not depend upon the Vicrotia Secrets Awards show. There may be over-commercialization of women. The Greeks used to hold athletic events, for men, in the nude. Perhaps that was exploitation of the male nude body, and demasculating.

How can I make this up to you? On this board, some women are trying to find ways to get their husbands back. Some women have neglected their share of the housework. Some women have had discovered affairs. Whatever the challenge or its origin, they seek to improve their relations with their husbands. What do you suggest for them? What would be good effective ideas to improve marital raltions. To me, improving the martial relations in the marital bedroom is a good place to start.

I think women would be well advised to look for ways to increase satiation for their husbands. In my opinion, based on some research findings, errotic images in the marital bedroom increases satiation. Many wives and husbands have affairs, that might have been prevented by increased satiation in the marital bedroom.

I have not figured out what BTDT means.

You make some unflattering coments about my POJA that I have with my wife on veiwing errotic images. I don't see anything wrong with saying, "Honey, if I help you with more than my share of the laundry, can we watch my favorite video?" Is that manipulation? I think it is ordinary marital negoitating. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. I think you could edit your remarks to be less scathing in your attack on me, personally, and my marriage.

People come here looking for workable soultions. You seem to be more interestd in setting up roadblocks.

I hear that you and some other MB Mega posters are very anti-porn. I suggest that you are not serving your best self-interests or the interests of those who are trying to improve their marriages. The problem is not that I refuse to learn. The situation is that you and I have a different set of priorites. You feel anti porn is paramount. I feel that saving and improving marriage is more important that the sensibilities of a vocal minority.

By insulting me personlly you are demonstrating that you are an advocacy poster, first, and only secondarily intersted inb helping others. You have not share much of your own marriage in your post. I generally share some of my personal problems or struggles in my posts. I feel that you are simply looking for reasons to discredit me, rather than trying to find better alternatives to achieve the same ends, of improved satiation.

Blessings

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 23, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You feel anti porn is paramount. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Soooooo...You're a mind reader?

Actually, you're the one who started this whole discussion from what I can see.

You're the one who set out to PROVE that porn is okay.

There are many statistics for and against porn. And you will not prove it's okay by the Bible. Sorry...won't happen.

You can make suggestions that aren't too crude on this website. That is fine.

I have held amicable conversations with men and women who use porn. I even put my own stipulations on its use (it must be of me for my H to use it). We've discussed masturbation.

The folks with whom we were discussing were open. They made a decision, end of story.

You, however, go round and round, spouting the same stuff. When you are backed into a corner, you attack the poster, not the argument. Why not the argument? Because there's nothing more to add, so you try to make the poster out to be bad. Like accusing Jan of making it paramount to make sure people don't use porn and that she's here to set up roadblocks, while you try to paint it as innocent a past time as baseball. A personal word about Jan's character: She has done more to help me than most anyone here. She did not put up roadblocks for me to stumble over. Yet it seems that you intend for people to trip over your advice. You want them to notice it. You want them to have a problem with it. You want it to be hashed out. You want the other poster to get angry and bash you so you can discount their position.

You said that victims of sexual assault actually appreciate porn. Well, I believe you've been talking to a number of victims at this website, and just about all of them say the same thing. Next, I expect you'll begin to blame the victims for needing something to pin the guilt of their assault on.

But, in the same breath as you "speak for" SA survivors, you go on about how okay it is for their privacy to be intruded upon, as long as one remains on his own property.

You make incendiary comments, not just objective observations, as one who is truly seeking to present both sides of an argument.

Tagging off, for now,

Petals

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong> Dear Jan, SJ Trouble, (Reader Caution, Contains explicit ideas)

I wonder if Miachael Jackson will be allowed to bring his laptop to prison, with wireless internet access.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Michael Jackson isn't posting to MB --- but if he were posting here as you are, I would be finding the same problems with his alledged perversion that I'm finding with yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>Why is it important for you to categorize me as a criminal, or as a citizen with a top secret clearnace? In prison, in a hlf way house, or out of prison?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a comment about YOUR comment - not my desire to categorize you, but rather your own catagorization of specific types of people - which you fit into very well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>The question that is important to me, is how can I improve the quality and balance of ideas for assistance I am providing in my posts to those who seem to be asking for ideas for help with their marital problems. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can the perpetual continuation of the perversion which you portray be of any assistance to anyone? It certainly isn't helping the women who are being abused through the production and use of pornography.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>It has been brought to my attention that some subjects are upsetting to some readers. So I have been trying to remember to put a Reader Advisory notice at the top of my posts that could cause discomfort to someone with certain types of backgrounds.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your *reader advisory* is simply another method you have chosen to use mocking the people of this forum. You don't instill discomfort - your version of reality is perverse and disgusting and not in any way helpful to people - perverts rarely HELP anyone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>
You are entitled to your opinion that all pornography should be burned. If I devised a switch to put clothes on all the nude pictures, I suppose you would pull the switch. A father(Douglas Fairbanks?) of a playboy model, recently presented his daughter with a copy of Playboy, with clothes artfully painted on her nude pictures. That is your ideal, right? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no problem with nudity. I'm an artist, the human body is lovingly created and beautiful to look at. LUST, which you propose through the continued abuse of the body through the idolization of pornography, is not beautiful - it is disgusting, leaving a film of filth from the abuse of the human body. Painting clothing upon pornographic models would not improve the abusive misuse of their bodies, nor would it sanctify their abusers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>
My opinion is different from yours.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Finally, a statement of fact that rings true - and can be accepted as understanding on your part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>
You believe that seductively dressed models demean womanhood. I may agree that my enjoyment of my porn with my wife does not depend upon the Vicrotia Secrets Awards show. There may be over-commercialization of women. The Greeks used to hold athletic events, for men, in the nude. Perhaps that was exploitation of the male nude body, and demasculating. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exploitiation of any person is degrading, abusive, and dehumanizing, male or female.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>
How can I make this up to you? On this board, some women are trying to find ways to get their husbands back. Some women have neglected their share of the housework. Some women have had discovered affairs. Whatever the challenge or its origin, they seek to improve their relations with their husbands. What do you suggest for them? What would be good effective ideas to improve marital raltions. To me, improving the martial relations in the marital bedroom is a good place to start. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The idea of you making anything up to me sickens me - however, you might start by actually LEARNING something instead of continuing to portray yourself as an innocent attempting to right the world, you could stop lying to yourself and others. No one I've noticed posting to you - approves, agrees with, or accepts what you are saying as truth - they are all attempting to tell you that what you are saying is disgusting and perverse - yet you so arrogantly perceive to be misunderstood??? Give me a break - are you truly so ignorant as to believe we don't 'understand' you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>
I think women would be well advised to look for ways to increase satiation for their husbands. In my opinion, based on some research findings, errotic images in the marital bedroom increases satiation. Many wives and husbands have affairs, that might have been prevented by increased satiation in the marital bedroom. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By this statement, I should have a wonderful marriage - one that was permanent and lasting. My marriage ended two years ago - not because I wasn't good enough in the bedroom, but rather because my H didn't want a wife and family. IF what you describe as 'satiation in the bedroom' worked - then many of the marriages where porn is a problem would be wonderful intities where both are satisfied ----- it has to do with more than SEX. SEX is not the only part of a marriage that needs to work for a marriage to continue.

In case you haven't noticed --- there aren't many men posting in support of your perversion.... Isn't that telling you something?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>I have not figured out what BTDT means. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there done that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>You make some unflattering coments about my POJA that I have with my wife on veiwing errotic images. I don't see anything wrong with saying, "Honey, if I help you with more than my share of the laundry, can we watch my favorite video?" Is that manipulation? I think it is ordinary marital negoitating. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. I think you could edit your remarks to be less scathing in your attack on me, personally, and my marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IF you are not pushing her boundaries by doing this - fine. If - as you indicate in another post specifically to lovemyex: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife ordinarily has a 3 minute rejection cycle. She will reject an idea of mine and get perturbed if I repeat the request within about a 3 minute period. When I get rejected, I back off for three minutes, and fashion a new approach, or drop the issue. I may persist on sometining for 7 or 8 Three minute cycles, if it is imortant to me. Usually the second or third approach is all it takes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">---- you constantly are pushing her boundaries, then NO that is NOT POJA --- she's conceding to you to get you to SHUT UP. She's not enthusiastically agreeing with you --- under these circumstances. If you were to treat your boss this way - I bet you wouldn't have a job very long... Try it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>People come here looking for workable soultions. You seem to be more interestd in setting up roadblocks. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pornography: visual stimulation through the abuse of the human body - is a workable solution???? Excuse me while I BARF.

What roadblocks have I set up??? Asking you to be responsible for your choices and posts? Asking that you not post stupid behaviorisms for people to follow? Suggesting that you at least learn from the responses you get from other posters, instead of ignoring them? Oh --- I get it --- I'm a roadblock to you getting across your perverted point of view to others - because I represent a different perspective????

Ahhhh - fresh air...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>I hear that you and some other MB Mega posters are very anti-porn. I suggest that you are not serving your best self-interests or the interests of those who are trying to improve their marriages. The problem is not that I refuse to learn. The situation is that you and I have a different set of priorites. You feel anti porn is paramount. I feel that saving and improving marriage is more important that the sensibilities of a vocal minority. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you noticed yet that YOU are a minority of ONE --- hell bent on promoting pornography to people who completely disagree with your perspective? Your self-serving perversion is not shared by any other single poster here. Have you noticed this???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong>By insulting me personlly you are demonstrating that you are an advocacy poster, first, and only secondarily intersted inb helping others. You have not share much of your own marriage in your post. I generally share some of my personal problems or struggles in my posts. I feel that you are simply looking for reasons to discredit me, rather than trying to find better alternatives to achieve the same ends, of improved satiation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Specifically what is an 'advocacy poster'?

Helping others is being responsible for the choices and options a person posts as viable solutions to marrital problems.

I don't have to hunt and search for means of discrediting you --- I only have to copy from your posts... and simply point out the obvious. You do a fine job of discrediting yourself.

Jan

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Dear MB readers,

I did a little resech on the Bible, and tried to put together my basis for my feelings.

I feel it is offensive to expand the Biblical principles into denominational or personal religious principles, without acknowledgint that the extentin is being made.

Revelations 22:18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plague described in this book. Oxford, 1977


I find it offensive to suggest taht Matthew 5:28 means a cautionary note on pornography, becaus pictures or images are not mentioned, and oggling, or enjoying errotic beauty is not discussed, and lusting after a spouse is not discussed.

Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfuly, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Oxford 1977


Blessings:

Quipper,
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging children, still struggling

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*"Even if a wife is not enthusiastic about errotic images in the marital bedroom, many could probably tolerate the intrusion better, if advocates against pornography did not exaggerate the harm to be more than it actaully is."

Many could probably tolerate the intrusion better? Is that what a wife is really supposed to do? tolerate the intrusion of something that makes her uncomfortable? Something that goes against her moral belief system? to enhance the pleasure/gratification of a man during an act that is/was designed to be between one man and one woman? pleasure and gratification that should be derived from the experience with that one woman (namely, his wife)?
Many wives would tolerate it better if anti-porn advocates wouldn't exaggerate the harm? Ugh! nobody ever had to exaggerate the harm to me... I felt the pain, and it wasn't because I was pre-programmed by anti-porn advocates. Men are visualy stimulated, I know that, so it goes without saying that I know that my husband gets stimulated looking at pictures of naked woman, young, firm, well-endowed naked women... that hurts, it is adultery in the mind, he (and yes, I am insinuating you as well here) derives sexual gratification from someone other than his wife. Women are very relational so it is a betrayal in our eyes and mind no matter how anyone, including we wives ourselves try to explain it away, intuitively we feel it as betrayal, and it hurts. It fills a woman with all kinds of self doubt, all kinds of doubt about her husband, and gives rise to major insecurity issues, which from your own descriptions of your wife's behavior, your wife seems to be dealing with herself.
"so he likes 'em young?" (as I watch myself age unable to turn back the clock)
"he seems to prefer blondes" (even if I bleached my hair my dark thick eyebrows would stick out like blinding sun)
If you think your wife doesn't compare herself to those woman you are only fooling yourself, and much to your own detriment. If you think she doesn't feel intimidated by them, again, only fooling yourself. No matter how you parse words, she knows she's not enough for you, that hurts, wether she admits it to you or not, it hurts.


*"I do not dispute that there are problems with errotic images. I think your posts are not helping to solve what I see as a major problem. That is that many men are receiving less visual sataisfaction than optimally possible from an overflowing marital bedroom."

First of all, who ever said that you were entitled to the most visual satisfaction as is optimally possible? You are sounding very greedy here. What about your wife's optimal satisfaction, what if it was derived from knowing she was enough for you? knowing that her lovemaking with you was great in and of itself? Is she due her optimal satisfaction as well? It would seem you would be at an impass? You might suggest taking turns enjoying optimal satisfaction, but that could never work, because if you were to ever achieve yours she could never achieve hers (she would always know that you're only completely satisfied with optimal visual stimulation- which means pictures of other women naked, ones prettier, naughtier, younger, firmer, preferrable in countless ways).

*"I have cited the number of play boy magazines and other errotic image magazines and videos, and suggested you compare those numbers with the number of divorces resulting from pornography."

Okay, here is wear a logic course would come in handy. I haven't taken a real one (if you have, then shame on you, you should know better) but I can spot faulty reasoning when it becomes this obvious. you are talking apples and oranges, of course the number wouldn't correlate, they have nothing to do with each other statistically speaking. The numbers of porn sold and the numbers of divorces due to porn just don't work together, a lot of porn is sold to single people... but the lack of a statistic there doesn't negate the fact that there are divorces due to porn, due to the harm (that has not been exaggerated) that porn causes. I just recently heard of a friend of a friend going through that very thing, it almost happened to me.

*"I brought up the problem of the Image of Western Military forces in developing and occupied countries. I suggested that errotic images could provide more releif to the daughters of the citizens of those countries. Do you wish nt to comment on that?"

I realize that question was not asked of me, but WHAT?!?!


*"What about Ted Bundy's girl friends? Did Ted Bundy have an overfowing bedroom with his girl friend?"

Are you actually suggesting that if he had had an "overflowing" bedroom with his girlfriend and had been sexually satisfied (optimally) that his deviant urges would have fallen by the wayside and that man would/could have been a production member of society?

I often find myself shaking my head in disbelief when I read your posts... I don't have the time to read many, but the ones I've taken the effort to get through have pretty much made me question a lot about you. Though I think I understand you better than you would think I do, I just so completely disagree with the positions you uphold that it boggles my mind, but don't worry I won't lose any sleep over it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
raz

<small>[ November 23, 2003, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: raz ]</small>

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Dear Jan, SJ Trouble (Reader Advisory: Contains explicit ideas)

Jan posted:
"How can the perpetual continuation of the perversion which you portray be of any assistance to anyone? It certainly isn't helping the women who are being abused through the production and use of pornography."

I don't know your personal history. If you would care to provide me a link, or copy some of your posts, I would be interested in trying to be considerate to your personal sensitivites.

You are posting as a advocate against all forms of pornography.

The question that I have raised, is, if a switch were technically devised to dress up all the nude pictures and statues, and films, videos, DVD,s eliminate all porn, and we threw the switch, what would happen to the sexual assault rate? What studies do you base those projections on?

There are indivdual cases related upon this board here which seem to suggest that pronograhy causes crime.

As I have stated, crime is caused by a lack of self discipline, a lack of social skills, and lapses in the development of ethical stages of reasoning. There are rehabilitation programs for crimnals and drug addicts which address these issues, and have good success rates in reducing recidivsm as comapred to recidivsim to prison.

For secretive sexaul deviants, the programs are less well developed, and the success rates have not yet been impressive, to my knowledge.

For a statistical demonstation that porn does not destroy marriages, I would suggest looking at the number of units of porn material sold, and the divorce rate.

I raise the question of the satiatin of our militaty men, and the positive role that porn can play in that stiation, and alliefing the frustratin of women and thrie families, who come in contact wtih our troops. What is your response?

You are expanding the porn debate beyond the marital bedroom, and I will try to help you understand the constructive role that errotic images play in our society, as a whole.

Blessings,


Quipper,
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

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Dear Raz,

Thanks for posting. You may not have read my words, but I have complemented you, as saying that you and I had been on a few threads, posting divergent options for solving problems, and I thought it was constructive.

If there are ways I can express my divergent views more constructively in conjunction with your views, please let me know. I wanted to give you this quick response, and I will read and answer your post as a higher priority. I feel you are motivated to try to hep people with problems. Right now I am short of time.

I did honor your request that I not post further to your thread started ad <wife>

Blessings,

Quipper

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

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