Ok...Although I've never cheated or have been cheated on(can't say that for sure) I know a thing or two about extra-marital affairs...Not so long ago, I used to think all affairs end in a divorce. Now after having read a number of success stories ,I know it is not so...

Just thought this might be a good place to ask a few questions to fill in my curiosity about the aftermath of affairs. Can I post a few questions if you wouldn't mind?

Thanks in Advance...

ask away......

Here goes...So, people say that the WS and the FWS are completely different personalities...With the fog, entitlement and all that the WS is depicted as a cruel and evil person.

So if the FWS is a transformed person as they and the BS claim to be, how does a FWS reconcile with the fact that s/he is rewarded for his/her affair with a transformed marriage and a loving & forgiving spouse instead of being punished? How does their �sense-of-fairness� allow that? Should they not feel what they get is totally undue for what they�ve done, especially after the cruelty they dished out to their victims during their period of fog?

Every person has the concept of 'Crime and Punishment' imbibed in them. So will they not feel like the character Raskolnikov of Dostoevsky's 'Crime and Punishment' for the rest of their lives, rather than feeling happy about how things turned out in their favor?

PS: I know I am being judgmental towards the FWS. But,I've never known one in person (except my ex-gf) to know if they are good people. Please understand that my intention is not to insult the FWS. I am only trying to find out if the FWS getting forgiven is justified and maybe learn to respect them for what they are now.

PPS: English is not my first-language. Excuse my writing errors

Are you doing research, or something?

@Pepperband

Are you Hindu?

Agnostic...The signature line is from Gita - A Hindu scripture...

I dunno why u r curious about me...newayz I thought I could PM you my Facebook profile, but cudn't since PM is disabled...

I think posters here will be wary of you until you tell us more about yourself. you are asking questions about people's very painful, private experiences and not saying much about how you intend to use this information.

You could post your Facebook link here, if you are happy for people to see your profile.

here you go...But I might remove it later, if that's fine.

**edit**

How do you intend to use the comments that people provide for you?

I'm harmless...Just trying to educate myself

You won't find a single repentant revovered FWS who would in any way think they had received a reward. Such are in awe everyday of their BS and know how lucky they are to have turned around. They cannot look at their actions without disgust.

As a fairly new BS (me)
do you really believe that???

I have no idea who or what Raskolnikov of Dostoevsky's 'Crime and Punishment' but Flick my FWH would agree entirely with BK

most definitely.

Aaromale, I think that your premise is mistaken. A transformed marriage is not a reward for an affair. Rather, it's the result of attentiveness of both spouses toward one another, of their efforts to protect one another & meet one another's needs. People in such marriages after an affair realize that they could've attained better marriages without the affair. And I was not "rewarded" with a loving & forgiving spouse; rather, I had a loving & forgiving spouse all along; I just didn't appreciate her the way I should have.

Forgiveness is a mystery I have no answer for. I can't speak from Raskolnikov's standpoint. Alyona and Lizaveta (his victims) weren't around after the crime, so the question of forgiveness didn't come up for them. I certainly haven't gotten my "due." I deserve much worse than I've gotten. But my wife wants me and I have no right to tell her that her forgiveness isn't good enough for me. I can't ever deserve it, but I can only continue to try to be worthy of it.

Hi...Thanks for the replies



I hope that you do understand, that I being an outsider, do not comprehend the thought process of either the BS/FWS. So I'm sorry if I've made (or make...please do point out if I do) any hurtful assumptions.


When I read a few stories, the image of the FWS that comes to my mind has some smugness(no offence meant) attached to it. Just wanted to clear that away. My actual question should have been something like "Do the FWS suffer as much as the BS did before they can savor their transformed marriage?"

that's the name of the main character in a Russian novel. i just remembered that name as i was typing crime and punishment(the title of the novel being the same)...

@GloveOil
you were right about my premise..but i got it from this story

**edit**

where the FWS says "It took having the affair to finally open my eyes. Everything we went through made us stronger. So, this may sound awful, but I guess I'm not sorry for the affair. I'm sorry that I hurt so many people � especially my husband and daughters. But our family bond has been tested, and I now know it's unbreakable."

i was taken aback...No offence, but that statement made me think that the FWS have it easy. IMHO no matter how much you try to romanticize the reconciliation process in the aftermath of an affair, it really isn�t romantic. I believe you'd agree too.

I am of the firm opinion that the FWS suffers far more than the BS did.

That example you quote is atypical however clearly that "F"WS does not fall in the category I mentioned earlier.

I have been both a BS and a WS, and I can assure you that it is far worse being the WS. There's nothing quite as horrible as the debilitating guilt experienced by a WS when they wake up and discover the truly horrible nature of what they have done. It is a shock beyond belief to have to accept that you have become the sort of person you never thought you could become. It was extremely difficult to be betrayed by my H, but it was far more difficult when I finally woke up and realized that I had betrayed myself and gone against everything I believed in.

Romantic??? I'm not sure where you got the idea that the reconciliation process after an affair is "romantic." Certainly not from Marriage Builders! The process is very, very difficult and grueling emotionally. It requires a great deal of self discipline, tremendous self examination, patience, self-soothing, and WORK to change the bad habits of a lifetime, replacing them with new, healthier ones. You have to be really motivated, and in it for the long haul.

The romance comes AFTER the reconciliation work has begun to pay off. Takes many months. And you have to KEEP on with those new ways to make it last. You can't get it "fixed" and then get lazy.

Gives a whole new meaning to the word "romance."

Thanks for the responses...Sorry I couldn't reply earlier, since i was caught up in work. I'll post my thoughts and questions soon

I'm a FWS and my H is FWS. We both have a completely different personal recovery processes even though we both have betrayed.

I'm happy to have a transformed marriage, but I know this has come as a truly hard work for us and not some sort of reward for our wayward lives. And we are not nearly there yet. What we get from MB is what we put in there. I'm sure that if I had stayed wayward I would have ended with divorce. If you are curious about punishment, I can tell you that - MB is not about punishing, it is about making the marriage work. Recovery itself is a hard process accompanied by bad memories and horrible triggers, many tears and this is what we both get after having an affair, does it sound like a reward to you? It can take 2 to 5 years to get over your partner's affair, a reward huh? Standing in front of the mirror and looking at yourself with disgust, a reward?
Better marriage is a result of hard work by both partners, and you don't need an affair to accomplish that. You need to know the basic concept about emotional needs and how to avoid lovebusters and motivation to do all this - and I'm happy to be rewarded with a happy marriage after doing that kind of work. Our choices to have affairs have ruined our lives, not made it better in any way. Affairs are a lowest lowpoint where you can get and even then there is a chance turn things over and make it work.

pinging...Can i revive this thread?

Why?

These links are probably the Final Word on the topic... though being an Internet forum on a thread necroed after 18 months, it might go on forever.

MarriageBuilders recovery is about a concept called "Just Compensation". Please read these two articles to understand it:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042b_qa.html

It's also important to realize that the most logical response to infidelity is usually a quick divorce with terms that highly favor the betrayed spouse. It's the most reasonable reaction, and often the path to the fastest personal recovery.

If you really want to fully understand the answer to your question, purchase or borrow a copy of "Surviving An Affair", by Dr. Willard Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers. We can summarize here, but the responses you'll get to your question will be scattershot. Surviving An Affair provides the reasons why affairs happen, why they end, how they SHOULD end, and what you can expect from recovery.

On a personal note, every so often my brain wanders into "fairness"-land. Is it justice that my spouse has a great marriage with me today after what she did? Of course not. It is not just at all. But she has provided me with Just Compensation in the form of living a MarriageBuilders lifestyle with me -- and I with her -- and helping us both have the marriage we always wanted.

The injustice of it all, I suppose, may be the one thing I eventually did have to forgive.

For 2 years you have been reading stories about adultery from those whose marriages survived and otherwise, now youre back for a personal reflection from us?

Read the material in the above post and that should be enough.

Now tell us about your experience with adultery because it pretty clear it hit close to home with you.

I grew old...I know that is a very simple statement. But do read on...

Doormat

Thanks for the links. I read those answers. And I do understand that you believe that fairness is a myth (or am I assuming so?)...But I find solace when I contemplate the Universal law of cause and effect. I expect to be punished, since I have been denied forgiveness for my own actions from those who I have wronged. To tell you the truth, I do not even think their forgiveness could change anything for me. I do not believe in a god who sits above us and penalizes us for our indiscretions. I simply believe, if i've done something bad, something bad happens to me, like the laws of physics...

Now, am i trying to apply my belief system for the FWS to reinforce my beliefs...certainly not...i thought it was so, when I posted here for the first time.....but now, I do not believe that is the reason why I'm curious...

Nope. It did not. But the last relationship i was in, turned abusive. She was abusive for a while. I was abusive towards the end of it. And my actions were worse than hers. That's a long story. But neither of us cheated.

So, my interest in this would be, like Doormat said, about the fairness of it all....But not the way he describes it. If i ever was cheated on, I am not sure mine would be a knee-jerk reaction and end it all...I certainly believe that even if the BS did forgive, despite that forgiveness, the consequence of the cheating will weigh down on FWS. Although I am no saint myself, when I first posted here, I did have contempt towards the FWS. I think part of my curosity is that I want to find out how the FWS are affected by all this, so that I can stop seeing them in just black and white...

Btw, i haven't been reading all this for 2 years.I did visit occasionally..Since I posted here the last time, i've been reading about so many things...And i've been travelling extensively...So much that I voluntarily took up an assignment in supposedly one of the most inhospitable places on earth just for the sake of getting to know about this part of the world...and after coming here, one more wrong assumption of mine got busted....

I can think of two productive approaches for you:

* Be specific about your situation here, and we can show you how to apply Marriage Builders concepts and what good that can do for you, or

* Research generally by becoming a daily listener of the Radio show, possibly subscribing the archives, and possibly buying and reading the Marriage Builders books.

From your posts as they are now, I don't understand what you are saying, and am not sure we can help you. If you want to be more specific about your situation, though, I'll bet we can help you lots!

If you want to do research here, then I think you need to dig in and do the research. I don't think we can help you do that.

There's a massive education available for you, though, if you want to get involved in it.

Hey Aaromale,

As I see it, your questioning is entirely philosophical and theoretical and not actionable or realistic.

MB is based on actions. It is a method for solving certain (solvable) relationship problems in general and marital problems in particular with real-world design solutions and no omphaloskepsis. It has been posted here before: MB methods are pretty much engineering solutions.

So, if a FWS (actual, genuine F) wants to repair the damage they have done and heal the wounds they have caused by their adultery, lies and mean behavior, and the BS is at some point willing to accept their attempt at compensation MB tends to work more often than not. If either person, and it�s usually the FWS, will not or can not work the entire program 100% results are not guaranteed.

(Personally I do not believe there are very many true FWS in the world. Oh, specific examples can be found in a pinch. But they are rare birds and come from a limited set of adulterous scenarios.)

�I expect to be punished, since I have been denied forgiveness for my own actions from those who I have wronged. To tell you the truth, I do not even think their forgiveness could change anything for me. I do not believe in a god who sits above us and penalizes us for our indiscretions. I simply believe, if I�ve done something bad, something bad happens to me, like the laws of physics...�

Huh? If you are appealing to physics, and not metaphysics, present your analyses and your data. If you believe there is no God, how will you be punished? What is judging your actions (and lack of actions)? Where is this cosmic balance beam? You do realize you are simply appealing to the randomness of the void, right? Sooner or later everything happens in every order and you think you will be allowed to pick out the things you want, the things that make sense to you. But everything that affects you and makes no sense to you will also happen, over and over.


So, my turn to ask you a couple of questions.

I would like to know where you have read Justice (with a capital J) actually exists in this universe; where is this Justice you speak of? Where is it real, accurate, true or even fair?

And finally, where do you think the most inhospitable place on earth is? Research station in Antarctica? Atacama Desert observatory? Gobi paleontology dig? International Court of Justice in The Hague?

I am of the firm opposite opinion.

The wayward spouse chooses their destruction and pain. The BS does not.

My spouse tells me all the time he knows that he can never take back what he did, or even fully comprehend the pain he inflicted upon me.

I believe him.

Oops, I did not realize this thread was elderly. I was just so taken aback by the quote I responded to that I had to answer.

My jaw is on the floor, still.

Aaromale, it's above my pay grade, but if there's no God, then what'd be the sense of notions of forgiveness or resentment? If you're right, then we're all merely aggregations of chemicals; and chemicals have no "right" or "wrong" -- they just interact for a little while, according to the laws of chemistry & physics -- some of which we understand and call "established," & some of which we don't understand. So have no regrets. None of it matters, right?

One doesn't need a concept of God to have resentment and forgiveness.

Resentment exists as a protective response to threat. We resent those who have injured us.

We forgive those who have compensated us for our injuries.

These things exist because, like many mammals, human beings survive and thrive better in social groups than in single family units.


What about biology, sir? While you are correct that many of the things that happen in our bodies happen because of the laws of chemistry and physics, many of those things are gamed by biology. Having the proper amount of chemical receptors for given neurotransmitters or other organic compounds, for instance.

As for none of it mattering, my very simple belief is this; I only get ONE chance to get this right, period. I get no after life, no forever after. No nirvana.

The only "immortality" available is the mark I leave behind in the lives that I touch... and even those lives will be brief. So, for me, it is best that I do the best I can in my one chance, and leave a positive mark in my trail, because there is no forgiveness, redemption, or forever after for me if I fail (or succeed).

bolded for emphasis

Point taken for sake of argument as re: resentment and forgiveness. But from whence this broader & strange concept of "right?" A wolf lunching on a fawn is neither right nor wrong. The wolf is just doing what wolves often do. Predatory OMs? Just doing what they sometimes do. Just interacting, until the hunger reflex abates and the sensory stimuli and neurotransmitters tip over into balance to indicate that they go off & do otherwise, no?

I'll respectfully agree to disagree with you, HHH. I know I won't solve it here, but for me, to be able to conclude that it all came to be quite fully ex nihilo, without a creator, requires more faith than I've got.

Ah, and I, sir, believe you have mountains of faith over what I posess myself.

Don't misunderstand me; I have great respect for faith and those who have it.

Just one problem with your comparison, though. A fawn is not a willing participant in the hunt. Adultery is a cooperative act. Deception is a cooperative act.

So, while your description of a predatory OM my be partly accurate, it does not factor in the willing participation of the AP, along with the unconditional trust of the BS - the part which we agree to accept deception.

@GloveOil: Total threadjack, but if you want I'll snail-mail or Kindle loan you one of my copies of Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene". It's a great read, and provides a superb framework for understanding the "why" of an ethic of right and wrong for our species sans supernatural intervention. IMHO it's a cornerstone book for understanding the phenomena we are currently observing in -- for instance -- the growing plague of pesticide-resistant bedbugs in the USA, antibiotic-resistant bacteria, and even many common human interactions (including adultery).

I'm a huge fan of MarriageBuilders and agree on moral questions with many of the posters, but -- as you probably already know -- I'm completely nonreligious.

Don't know if I've mentioned him to you before, but if you check youtube, there is a TedX talk from Baba Brinkman which ends with a bit about simple genetic basis for altruism that is pretty fantastic.

You might also get a kick out of his Rap Guide to Evolution and Rap Guide to Human Nature.

There was also a recent study involving simple robots which produced surprising results.

Dawkins is alright... but... he kind of throws me off with his belief in "short term mating."

The problem with brilliant people in so many fields, from the ecclesiastical to the scientific, is that they may have superb insights and amazing eloquence, but their personal lives are often train wrecks.

True, very true.

Another comes to mind, and I have come to enjoy it more with MB as a basis while I read, and that is You Are Not So Smart, which is all about psychological bias and fallacies. Love it.

i do not understand how it'd be unrealistic...I've read some posts here.The recurring expectation of every BS seems to be that the FWS feel mortified by their actions - that to feel mortified for the person they've become, not just for the quantum of hurt they have unleashed on their families.

DoNoMo seems to want that from his FWS.I went through DoNoMo's thread http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2272589&page=1.I read some more posts of his and I find that he was concerned about the lack of "abject apology" from his FWS, despite her apologies for the hurt caused. I can only assume that, his expectation for an abject apology stems from his expectation that his FWS feels gut-wrenching remorse.

Now there are two ways to interpret this. Either the BS wants their FWS to feel true remorse so that they do not stray again, because it would hurt themselves too. Or that the BS wants the FWS to feel true remorse, so that they won't have to feel that they are the only ones that are paying the price for the FWS actions. You might say it is only the former or a combination of both. I believe its a combination of both.

If the BS believe that there will be that point where the FWS are as equally hurt as they are, then I guess, their expectation is not actionable or realistic too according to what you've said.


sounded a bit cynical...but you are the expert. But i'd like to know how is the F earned? Is it when the WS start working on their marriage even without feeling gut-wrenching remorse? Or is it when the WS feels total remorse for what they've become?



I haven't. I do not believe there is a system or framework that is in place to dispense proper capital J Justice. I simply believe if you do bad things you will have to pay for those actions in this life itself. I do not believe there is a Judgement Day or an after-life or rebirth whatsoever. You might ask, how is it then so many evil men and women have managed to escape punishment for their actions? A friend once asked me,how is it that Genghis Khan, Timur, Attila, etc., died in their sleep and not cruel deaths? My answer would be, the punishment they've faced may not be the ones you've actually wished for them. In the context of these warlords, as much as there is no historical proof to suggest that they never had to experience any of the torment they unleashed upon others, there is no historical proof to suggest that they lived a happy life either. They could have lived in constant fear/suspicion, with no real friends to trust or share what they thought. For example the first emperor of China, who was no less cruel than these warlords, was tormented by paranoia in his later life.

Btw, what i wrote - "I do not believe in a god who sits above us and penalizes us for our indiscretions", you are only reading my statement partially.

I do believe in god. But I don't believe in capital G God. I don't think of god as a being or a person who is constantly governing the universe and dispensing proper Justice within a framework that He/She devised. I am not a nihilist. My belief is a bit different.




Why would The Hague be inhospitable? Am I a war criminal?? Just , Saudi Arabia...

actually, i like the way this discussion is going. I wish I had more time to read all the other replies and respond..But been busy the whole day. And now i've to go to sleep. Hope to participate more tmrw..

@Markos: Thanks for the links

We should keep this discussion reasonably close to MB doctrine and definitely stay away from a religion debate. Otherwise your thread will get booted entirely.

�I do not understand how it'd be unrealistic...I've read some posts here. The recurring expectation of every BS seems to be that the FWS feel mortified by their actions - that to feel mortified for the person they've become, not just for the quantum of hurt they have unleashed on their families. �

As a scientist it looks like a conflation of philosophy vs reality to me. You appear to strongly couple evil-doer remorse and mortification with fairness and maybe justice. Not necessary. Remorse benefits your example adulterers more than their victims. Remorse and mortification (and other consequences of hurtful actions) helps lead to a changed heart � a transformed person. And that is good for everyone, not just a BS. Fair is not a requirement. Results are.

Certainly, remorse has a secondary benefit for the betrayed. As a BH who still cared about the WW, I most wanted her reclamation for her own spiritual sake. My own healing and personal improvements were up to me. Now, the rate of my healing may have relied to an extent on her subsequent actions towards me, but I was (still am) going to have to heal and grow no matter what she does or does not do.

But I�d like to know how is the F earned? Is it when the WS start working on their marriage even without feeling gut-wrenching remorse? Or is it when the WS feels total remorse for what they've become?

I don�t know. There are many others here who can answer that better than I. So what if an adulterer, or any evil-doer, never feels remorse but stops the behaviors and makes amends anyway? For whatever reason� is that good enough for those they harmed?

All that being said, I get the literal meaning of your words but I am still casting about for the personal connection. You mention you were reactionarily abusive towards a girlfriend. Do you desire reconciliation? Do you feel remorse? Do you wonder if MB methods will help? Is the fairness you wonder about meant for her or for you?

Perhaps before you tackle justice and fairness you should explore compassion. Compassion for those who have wronged you and for those you have wronged. Don�t forget compassion for yourself, too.

� Why would The Hague be inhospitable? Am I a war criminal?? Just , Saudi Arabia... �

You ask about justice and fairness. So, an example for those denied all other possibilities seems appropriate. Especially since I have a close relative who worked there. The atmosphere is very, very politically charged and inhospitable as a consequence.

Saudi Arabia can be inhospitable, of course, in a different way (though I like the beaches and reef diving). The most physically inhospitable place I have been is the rim of the caldera on Mt Erebus. A close friend died there on NZ Flight 901 so I went to see the place a few years later.

Bharathi? Are you a fan of romance?

A gift: Nilakantha Dharani

BTW, a �quantum� is a smallest possible increment, amount, change or package.

I don't believe it's a TOS violation to have a religious discussion on the OT forum.

I disagree. Do you mean to say that, you are faithful to your spouse only because religion expects you to? Or just say, you do not decieve/abuse/exploit/ill-treat a fellow human-being only because you fear God?
Even if there is no God, as a human with a free-will you and I and every one else should and does have their own conscience. Now the sense of right and wrong comes from that conscience. People base their morals on their conscience. If you were to go by what the book says, then notions of forgiveness or resentment are relative concepts. Case in point, the difference in the notions of forgiveness in Islam and Christianity. Both religionists believe in God. But are their notions of forgiveness the same?


It matters because hurt is real as long as it exists and it needs to be mitigated.

Thanks a million for that gift. I've been replaying it over and over.


If it does benefit the adulterer more than the victims, it is still a good thing. It really doesn't matter who benefits more. It's only important that both the FWS and BS suffer the same. That is the real measurement of fairness IMHO. But do tell me, how does it benefit the adulterer more?


I agree that results are important. But it would take a truly altruistic person to not expect fairness. I don't know if anyone can be that altruistic.

But I thought about something else that you said.If a FWS is a transformed person, that would mean they should also have a sense of fairness in them that would forever torment them forever, right? (That was my original question in this thread)

Are there FWS like that? Actually when I read stories where the BS complains that their FWS do not show,extreme remorse, I wonder how true is their claim..

As for my personal connection: Long story short. I and her were co-workers. We began a relationship. It was all good at the start. But she had this great issue of insecurity. Her closest friends had backstabbed her while she was in school (Her best friend had told her mutual friends that she had a lesbian crush on her. The fact that she had a tomboyish persona and her school used to be an all-girls Catholic school, made it all too easy for the rumor to spread...anyways, that was when she was in her teens). She had warned me at the start of our relationship that she never really trusts anyone. I didn't know how serious it was. I didn't know her history...I sincerely wish I did....If i couldn't make it for lunch with her, she'd doubt my commitment. If i had to end a phone conversation with her when she's not finished talking, because something else comes up, that is taken as apathy...you get it right? And I made sure not to offend her in any way, hoping she'd grow to feel secure with me...She never did. I was feeling suffocated. But i didn't know how to get out. I was a coward. I was the one that pursued her relentless at the start.I had ignored her cautionary advice. And I was still enamored by her too(she is uber-cute). So it wasn't for me to end it.

I found a new job in a new place and a completely different industry. We promised each other that we'll make the long-distance relationship work until either of us finds a job closer to the other. (Will continue later...)

One or two things today. Very busy.

�If it (remorse and mortification) does benefit the adulterer more than the victims, it is still a good thing. It really doesn't matter who benefits more. It's only important that both the FWS and BS suffer the same. That is the real measurement of fairness IMHO. But do tell me, how does it benefit the adulterer more?�

I should have written that true remorse may, could, have a potential to benefit the adulterer more than the betrayed. Depends on the adulterer, why they feel remorse, what kind of remorse they feel and what they do with it.

If the only remorse the adulterer feels is because of consequences of their actions that fall upon themselves - well, I think the jury will remain out a while longer. Or if the BS, oh I don�t know, died of grief and loneliness (it happens) of course there is no comparison with any remorse the adulterer could ever feel.

An adulterer that learns not to do it any more, no matter what, period, ever, might somehow eventually become a general benefit to the universe. I think such a transformation is rare, but I can�t deny it could ever happen.

But why do you think the FWS and the BS need to suffer the same? Who or what construct says this must be so? Besides, how will you or any mortal entity measure, weigh and balance their sufferings? And what would be the point anyway?

IMO no adulterer in the history of the human race has ever suffered even remotely as much as their victims (I include COM and the OP�s BS and family). True and absolute justice would require eternal suffering, which you deny.

As regards my cynicism. You realize the adulterers that hang around MB are a highly self-selected population. They do not represent the real world. Not even close. In the real world only one adulterer in a blue moon adequately repents - for any reason whatsoever.

Justice does not require remorse or mortification. Justice only requires complete amends and the certainty, the total inability the original wrong could ever be committed again. And not just committed again against the original victim but ever again against anyone at all.

Justice is so hard to quantify. Amends are difficult to quantify. This topic even bothered the ancient Greeks no end. A great deal of Greek mythology revolves around unobtainable justice.

MB talks about just compensation � a better marriage. That is a good thing, of course. But personally I don�t think such a thing (just compensation, I mean; a better marriage is always possible - even if with someone else) exists for the vast majority of adulteries. Pure Justice and fairness in general and for adultery in particular is probably not possible in this universe. However, justice tempered with mercy may be possible.

Green Tara

Ok.. will finish of my story first...So like i was saying the relationship was heading for doom. But she didn't realize it. I was leading her on. When I was near her, she did not make many friends. Her old friends had got transferred too. So she came to depend on me completely for any of the things that were troubling her. And they were too many.

I was still finding it hard to acclimate myself to the new place and job..and a completely new set of friends. The work culture here was different. The town was a small one. Too many things were new for me and I was trying to adjust..Since we had decided to work it out on the phone, she used to call me everyday.I do not remember the things that happened then..Its been 3 years now. But I can say, most of the time I began to be inattentive during our conversations. When confronted I started to act annoyed. And later on it came to an extent that I would yell on phone and things turned ugly. She would plead to me not to do that, but I continued to do so, sometimes hoping she would stop calling me for a while until things were sorted out in my new life. To me she was a safety net. I couldn't let her go. But at the same time, I couldn't keep her.

She found new friends. Which was a great relief for me. But I still believed that I can make things work out when I wanted to. One of her new friends happened to be a guy who was recently ditched. I was concerned about this. But she would assure me nothing would go wrong. And our conversations were becoming more amicable because I wasn't the only person she looked towards in times of distress. So I was a bit ok with it...Cut to the chase, she became the rebound girl. In any case their relationship never worked out either. We are still freinds. I tried for a while to reignite the old flame (i know..that was low..but I had no ethics, morals , whatsoever)...Anyways that was the end of that.

BUT, it wasn't that, that made me come here. I do not think of reconciliation. I am forever grateful for having known her intimately. She taught me a lot of things. A part of who I am today is her doing. So I got a great deal out of the relationship. But it was a heartache for both of us. More so for her....I only shared the story here because some here asked me to. I know it isn't in great detail. But, I just wrote this to explain why I said earlier that there are things I cannot forgive myself for...One of the things would be to let her go the way she never thought she would. I will NEVER call it cheating, cuz, I drove her to it.

Aphelion: Sorry i couldn't reply soon. But I would like to think about the things that you've explained before making a reply. Writing about the story and reading your response has made me think of why I came to MB originally. To tell you the truth the reason I am posting here now and the reason why I posted 18 months ago aren't the same... Btw, you've been to KSA? I live in Jubail now..

Aphelion:
That IMHO is no remorse at all.

My question is "do they?". And you have answered that. But there are many BS and FWS, not just on MB, but elsewhere on the web who contradict your statement. But I cannot know unless I am one of them, which, however curious I am, I don't wish to be ever...

For the rest of your post about justice, I still do not understand why then would a BS accept this injustice. I have more questions. A lot more than what I had, before I came here. For every answer I get, I find myself questioning more about the concepts of justice, trust, forgiveness, contrition etc.

I am posting here after a break�was acclimatizing to a change in location. I was able to organize my thoughts in the mean time. I still have many questions. I�ll ask one at a time, so that the replies, if you chose to make any, do not become overwhelming. Besides, my questions can be stinging.

Before writing anything else I will clearly state my purpose of posting here. I, like many other people, have believed that an affair is the ultimate deal breaker when it comes to marriage and that marriages do not survive an affair. To me it used to be (actually still is) unacceptable that the WS end up getting the marriage of their dreams despite their transgressions. It is not about justice entirely. It is about bad people getting good things.
I know many here, BS and FWS , alike will protest that FWS are not bad people. Personally I don�t believe in good and bad � only varying degrees of selfishness. In any case, I understand that many here will define the FWS as a good person who did a bad thing or something in kind.

Like Aphelion says, are they really a FWS? A person is good if s/he feels some gut-wrenching contrition about his/her bad actions.

Reading through some of the posts I felt that, the BS out of their desperation to save the M, simply choose to accept their WS as FWS just for some basic things in return � like NC and EP (which in fact, the FWS should do to redeem themselves and not to compensate the BS), and call them Just Compensation, where as real justice would have been some drastic change in the outlook the FWS have towards the A and themselves � even if not immediately post A, sometime later at least.

I read through DoNoMo�s thread entirely. I can see that DoNoMo considers his spouse to be a FWS.
Now, by his own admission, his FWS is not remorseful about the A or has asked for forgiveness earnestly, which I take to be as a sign that she does not see the A as a cruel and despicable thing. He is afraid to ask if his FWS has any remaining feelings for the OM, fearing that the answer might be affirmative, which means that the FWS does not see the OM as someone who was an enemy to the M. DoNoMo�s FWS was fogged out for a long time even after NC and when she did come out of the fog she went along with DoNoMo�s plan for recovery instead of taking the lead herself, which means that she does not think of the A as a grave mistake that she has to set right. Now, may be my assumptions are wrong here and it is probable that DoNoMo has recounted only his side of the story. But I take that at face-value.

My question is: -

The FWS not showing remorse or asking for forgiveness is a sign that there is a failure to acknowledge that they have made a grave mistake. This can be acceptable, if the FWS generally never had a moral standard that would consider the A a cruel and selfish act. But this FWS are people who stood in a moral high ground prior to the A (and might still hold the same moral high ground when it comes to matters of judging others post the A). So does this mean their moral standards have been warped Post-A or that they do not still view this A of theirs as an affront to their moral standards?

Very common. You're in good company

I suspect you're looking for a 'standard' admission of remorse for the commission of the crime. Not every wayward falls to their knees, rending (yes, NG ) their garments and gnashing their teeth. I think you're looking for an emotional show of remorse.

It would be perfect if every wayward had the beam removed from their eye and stood before an assembled crowd, vowing to their spouse that they have seen the errors of their ways. My experience on this site tells me that doesn't always happen. The wayward often knows what they did was wrong and vows to right their ways. It didn't work for them or their family. They come back to the marriage, quietly, without fanfare. They agree to their betrayed spouse's terms and proceed with recovery.

I do think you have read some posts here and have applied your own interpretation of their recovery. You're not there, so you can't possibly know the extent of their remorse or recovery.

Now, having said that: if a wayward lets their spouse know that they aren't sorry they had an affair, there's a problem.

And, having said all that, why do you ask?

So, Aromale, you've got your answers. I see that you've been here for a few years. What's your story? Why are you here? I apologize if I missed it.

See his post #2593089.

Aaromale,

I've already spent more time than I have here this morning. I will read and think a bit. Probably be able to post back to you when I get to Tokyo next week.

Titans

Thanks, Aphelion.

Maritalbliss:
Thanks for the reply.
Yes...I did interpret the FWS remorse to be something very expressive. But aren't there cases where the FWS does not even express remorse at all. Or even share to their BS what they think of their affair and themselves now. I believe there are FWS who are that way and the BS still forgiving them, despite the FWS not having asked for forgiveness. Now this puzzled me and hence the question.

isn't there a possibility that they are not sorry about the affair and still choose not to talk about it? And the BS too, out of desperation to save the M, choose not to dig deep?

Aphelion:
Thanks for the link. Do take your time please. And a quid pro quo You've probably never listened to music from this genre. Its classical South Indian music (Carnatic) fusion with western instruments