i do not understand how it'd be unrealistic...I've read some posts here.The recurring expectation of every BS seems to be that the FWS feel mortified by their actions - that to feel mortified for the person they've become, not just for the quantum of hurt they have unleashed on their families.

DoNoMo seems to want that from his FWS.I went through DoNoMo's thread http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2272589&page=1.I read some more posts of his and I find that he was concerned about the lack of "abject apology" from his FWS, despite her apologies for the hurt caused. I can only assume that, his expectation for an abject apology stems from his expectation that his FWS feels gut-wrenching remorse.

Now there are two ways to interpret this. Either the BS wants their FWS to feel true remorse so that they do not stray again, because it would hurt themselves too. Or that the BS wants the FWS to feel true remorse, so that they won't have to feel that they are the only ones that are paying the price for the FWS actions. You might say it is only the former or a combination of both. I believe its a combination of both.

If the BS believe that there will be that point where the FWS are as equally hurt as they are, then I guess, their expectation is not actionable or realistic too according to what you've said.


sounded a bit cynical...but you are the expert. But i'd like to know how is the F earned? Is it when the WS start working on their marriage even without feeling gut-wrenching remorse? Or is it when the WS feels total remorse for what they've become?



I haven't. I do not believe there is a system or framework that is in place to dispense proper capital J Justice. I simply believe if you do bad things you will have to pay for those actions in this life itself. I do not believe there is a Judgement Day or an after-life or rebirth whatsoever. You might ask, how is it then so many evil men and women have managed to escape punishment for their actions? A friend once asked me,how is it that Genghis Khan, Timur, Attila, etc., died in their sleep and not cruel deaths? My answer would be, the punishment they've faced may not be the ones you've actually wished for them. In the context of these warlords, as much as there is no historical proof to suggest that they never had to experience any of the torment they unleashed upon others, there is no historical proof to suggest that they lived a happy life either. They could have lived in constant fear/suspicion, with no real friends to trust or share what they thought. For example the first emperor of China, who was no less cruel than these warlords, was tormented by paranoia in his later life.

Btw, what i wrote - "I do not believe in a god who sits above us and penalizes us for our indiscretions", you are only reading my statement partially.

I do believe in god. But I don't believe in capital G God. I don't think of god as a being or a person who is constantly governing the universe and dispensing proper Justice within a framework that He/She devised. I am not a nihilist. My belief is a bit different.




Why would The Hague be inhospitable? Am I a war criminal?? Just , Saudi Arabia...

actually, i like the way this discussion is going. I wish I had more time to read all the other replies and respond..But been busy the whole day. And now i've to go to sleep. Hope to participate more tmrw..

@Markos: Thanks for the links

We should keep this discussion reasonably close to MB doctrine and definitely stay away from a religion debate. Otherwise your thread will get booted entirely.

�I do not understand how it'd be unrealistic...I've read some posts here. The recurring expectation of every BS seems to be that the FWS feel mortified by their actions - that to feel mortified for the person they've become, not just for the quantum of hurt they have unleashed on their families. �

As a scientist it looks like a conflation of philosophy vs reality to me. You appear to strongly couple evil-doer remorse and mortification with fairness and maybe justice. Not necessary. Remorse benefits your example adulterers more than their victims. Remorse and mortification (and other consequences of hurtful actions) helps lead to a changed heart � a transformed person. And that is good for everyone, not just a BS. Fair is not a requirement. Results are.

Certainly, remorse has a secondary benefit for the betrayed. As a BH who still cared about the WW, I most wanted her reclamation for her own spiritual sake. My own healing and personal improvements were up to me. Now, the rate of my healing may have relied to an extent on her subsequent actions towards me, but I was (still am) going to have to heal and grow no matter what she does or does not do.

But I�d like to know how is the F earned? Is it when the WS start working on their marriage even without feeling gut-wrenching remorse? Or is it when the WS feels total remorse for what they've become?

I don�t know. There are many others here who can answer that better than I. So what if an adulterer, or any evil-doer, never feels remorse but stops the behaviors and makes amends anyway? For whatever reason� is that good enough for those they harmed?

All that being said, I get the literal meaning of your words but I am still casting about for the personal connection. You mention you were reactionarily abusive towards a girlfriend. Do you desire reconciliation? Do you feel remorse? Do you wonder if MB methods will help? Is the fairness you wonder about meant for her or for you?

Perhaps before you tackle justice and fairness you should explore compassion. Compassion for those who have wronged you and for those you have wronged. Don�t forget compassion for yourself, too.

� Why would The Hague be inhospitable? Am I a war criminal?? Just , Saudi Arabia... �

You ask about justice and fairness. So, an example for those denied all other possibilities seems appropriate. Especially since I have a close relative who worked there. The atmosphere is very, very politically charged and inhospitable as a consequence.

Saudi Arabia can be inhospitable, of course, in a different way (though I like the beaches and reef diving). The most physically inhospitable place I have been is the rim of the caldera on Mt Erebus. A close friend died there on NZ Flight 901 so I went to see the place a few years later.

Bharathi? Are you a fan of romance?

A gift: Nilakantha Dharani

BTW, a �quantum� is a smallest possible increment, amount, change or package.

I don't believe it's a TOS violation to have a religious discussion on the OT forum.

I disagree. Do you mean to say that, you are faithful to your spouse only because religion expects you to? Or just say, you do not decieve/abuse/exploit/ill-treat a fellow human-being only because you fear God?
Even if there is no God, as a human with a free-will you and I and every one else should and does have their own conscience. Now the sense of right and wrong comes from that conscience. People base their morals on their conscience. If you were to go by what the book says, then notions of forgiveness or resentment are relative concepts. Case in point, the difference in the notions of forgiveness in Islam and Christianity. Both religionists believe in God. But are their notions of forgiveness the same?


It matters because hurt is real as long as it exists and it needs to be mitigated.

Thanks a million for that gift. I've been replaying it over and over.


If it does benefit the adulterer more than the victims, it is still a good thing. It really doesn't matter who benefits more. It's only important that both the FWS and BS suffer the same. That is the real measurement of fairness IMHO. But do tell me, how does it benefit the adulterer more?


I agree that results are important. But it would take a truly altruistic person to not expect fairness. I don't know if anyone can be that altruistic.

But I thought about something else that you said.If a FWS is a transformed person, that would mean they should also have a sense of fairness in them that would forever torment them forever, right? (That was my original question in this thread)

Are there FWS like that? Actually when I read stories where the BS complains that their FWS do not show,extreme remorse, I wonder how true is their claim..

As for my personal connection: Long story short. I and her were co-workers. We began a relationship. It was all good at the start. But she had this great issue of insecurity. Her closest friends had backstabbed her while she was in school (Her best friend had told her mutual friends that she had a lesbian crush on her. The fact that she had a tomboyish persona and her school used to be an all-girls Catholic school, made it all too easy for the rumor to spread...anyways, that was when she was in her teens). She had warned me at the start of our relationship that she never really trusts anyone. I didn't know how serious it was. I didn't know her history...I sincerely wish I did....If i couldn't make it for lunch with her, she'd doubt my commitment. If i had to end a phone conversation with her when she's not finished talking, because something else comes up, that is taken as apathy...you get it right? And I made sure not to offend her in any way, hoping she'd grow to feel secure with me...She never did. I was feeling suffocated. But i didn't know how to get out. I was a coward. I was the one that pursued her relentless at the start.I had ignored her cautionary advice. And I was still enamored by her too(she is uber-cute). So it wasn't for me to end it.

I found a new job in a new place and a completely different industry. We promised each other that we'll make the long-distance relationship work until either of us finds a job closer to the other. (Will continue later...)

One or two things today. Very busy.

�If it (remorse and mortification) does benefit the adulterer more than the victims, it is still a good thing. It really doesn't matter who benefits more. It's only important that both the FWS and BS suffer the same. That is the real measurement of fairness IMHO. But do tell me, how does it benefit the adulterer more?�

I should have written that true remorse may, could, have a potential to benefit the adulterer more than the betrayed. Depends on the adulterer, why they feel remorse, what kind of remorse they feel and what they do with it.

If the only remorse the adulterer feels is because of consequences of their actions that fall upon themselves - well, I think the jury will remain out a while longer. Or if the BS, oh I don�t know, died of grief and loneliness (it happens) of course there is no comparison with any remorse the adulterer could ever feel.

An adulterer that learns not to do it any more, no matter what, period, ever, might somehow eventually become a general benefit to the universe. I think such a transformation is rare, but I can�t deny it could ever happen.

But why do you think the FWS and the BS need to suffer the same? Who or what construct says this must be so? Besides, how will you or any mortal entity measure, weigh and balance their sufferings? And what would be the point anyway?

IMO no adulterer in the history of the human race has ever suffered even remotely as much as their victims (I include COM and the OP�s BS and family). True and absolute justice would require eternal suffering, which you deny.

As regards my cynicism. You realize the adulterers that hang around MB are a highly self-selected population. They do not represent the real world. Not even close. In the real world only one adulterer in a blue moon adequately repents - for any reason whatsoever.

Justice does not require remorse or mortification. Justice only requires complete amends and the certainty, the total inability the original wrong could ever be committed again. And not just committed again against the original victim but ever again against anyone at all.

Justice is so hard to quantify. Amends are difficult to quantify. This topic even bothered the ancient Greeks no end. A great deal of Greek mythology revolves around unobtainable justice.

MB talks about just compensation � a better marriage. That is a good thing, of course. But personally I don�t think such a thing (just compensation, I mean; a better marriage is always possible - even if with someone else) exists for the vast majority of adulteries. Pure Justice and fairness in general and for adultery in particular is probably not possible in this universe. However, justice tempered with mercy may be possible.

Green Tara

Ok.. will finish of my story first...So like i was saying the relationship was heading for doom. But she didn't realize it. I was leading her on. When I was near her, she did not make many friends. Her old friends had got transferred too. So she came to depend on me completely for any of the things that were troubling her. And they were too many.

I was still finding it hard to acclimate myself to the new place and job..and a completely new set of friends. The work culture here was different. The town was a small one. Too many things were new for me and I was trying to adjust..Since we had decided to work it out on the phone, she used to call me everyday.I do not remember the things that happened then..Its been 3 years now. But I can say, most of the time I began to be inattentive during our conversations. When confronted I started to act annoyed. And later on it came to an extent that I would yell on phone and things turned ugly. She would plead to me not to do that, but I continued to do so, sometimes hoping she would stop calling me for a while until things were sorted out in my new life. To me she was a safety net. I couldn't let her go. But at the same time, I couldn't keep her.

She found new friends. Which was a great relief for me. But I still believed that I can make things work out when I wanted to. One of her new friends happened to be a guy who was recently ditched. I was concerned about this. But she would assure me nothing would go wrong. And our conversations were becoming more amicable because I wasn't the only person she looked towards in times of distress. So I was a bit ok with it...Cut to the chase, she became the rebound girl. In any case their relationship never worked out either. We are still freinds. I tried for a while to reignite the old flame (i know..that was low..but I had no ethics, morals , whatsoever)...Anyways that was the end of that.

BUT, it wasn't that, that made me come here. I do not think of reconciliation. I am forever grateful for having known her intimately. She taught me a lot of things. A part of who I am today is her doing. So I got a great deal out of the relationship. But it was a heartache for both of us. More so for her....I only shared the story here because some here asked me to. I know it isn't in great detail. But, I just wrote this to explain why I said earlier that there are things I cannot forgive myself for...One of the things would be to let her go the way she never thought she would. I will NEVER call it cheating, cuz, I drove her to it.

Aphelion: Sorry i couldn't reply soon. But I would like to think about the things that you've explained before making a reply. Writing about the story and reading your response has made me think of why I came to MB originally. To tell you the truth the reason I am posting here now and the reason why I posted 18 months ago aren't the same... Btw, you've been to KSA? I live in Jubail now..

Aphelion:
That IMHO is no remorse at all.

My question is "do they?". And you have answered that. But there are many BS and FWS, not just on MB, but elsewhere on the web who contradict your statement. But I cannot know unless I am one of them, which, however curious I am, I don't wish to be ever...

For the rest of your post about justice, I still do not understand why then would a BS accept this injustice. I have more questions. A lot more than what I had, before I came here. For every answer I get, I find myself questioning more about the concepts of justice, trust, forgiveness, contrition etc.

I am posting here after a break�was acclimatizing to a change in location. I was able to organize my thoughts in the mean time. I still have many questions. I�ll ask one at a time, so that the replies, if you chose to make any, do not become overwhelming. Besides, my questions can be stinging.

Before writing anything else I will clearly state my purpose of posting here. I, like many other people, have believed that an affair is the ultimate deal breaker when it comes to marriage and that marriages do not survive an affair. To me it used to be (actually still is) unacceptable that the WS end up getting the marriage of their dreams despite their transgressions. It is not about justice entirely. It is about bad people getting good things.
I know many here, BS and FWS , alike will protest that FWS are not bad people. Personally I don�t believe in good and bad � only varying degrees of selfishness. In any case, I understand that many here will define the FWS as a good person who did a bad thing or something in kind.

Like Aphelion says, are they really a FWS? A person is good if s/he feels some gut-wrenching contrition about his/her bad actions.

Reading through some of the posts I felt that, the BS out of their desperation to save the M, simply choose to accept their WS as FWS just for some basic things in return � like NC and EP (which in fact, the FWS should do to redeem themselves and not to compensate the BS), and call them Just Compensation, where as real justice would have been some drastic change in the outlook the FWS have towards the A and themselves � even if not immediately post A, sometime later at least.

I read through DoNoMo�s thread entirely. I can see that DoNoMo considers his spouse to be a FWS.
Now, by his own admission, his FWS is not remorseful about the A or has asked for forgiveness earnestly, which I take to be as a sign that she does not see the A as a cruel and despicable thing. He is afraid to ask if his FWS has any remaining feelings for the OM, fearing that the answer might be affirmative, which means that the FWS does not see the OM as someone who was an enemy to the M. DoNoMo�s FWS was fogged out for a long time even after NC and when she did come out of the fog she went along with DoNoMo�s plan for recovery instead of taking the lead herself, which means that she does not think of the A as a grave mistake that she has to set right. Now, may be my assumptions are wrong here and it is probable that DoNoMo has recounted only his side of the story. But I take that at face-value.

My question is: -

The FWS not showing remorse or asking for forgiveness is a sign that there is a failure to acknowledge that they have made a grave mistake. This can be acceptable, if the FWS generally never had a moral standard that would consider the A a cruel and selfish act. But this FWS are people who stood in a moral high ground prior to the A (and might still hold the same moral high ground when it comes to matters of judging others post the A). So does this mean their moral standards have been warped Post-A or that they do not still view this A of theirs as an affront to their moral standards?

Very common. You're in good company

I suspect you're looking for a 'standard' admission of remorse for the commission of the crime. Not every wayward falls to their knees, rending (yes, NG ) their garments and gnashing their teeth. I think you're looking for an emotional show of remorse.

It would be perfect if every wayward had the beam removed from their eye and stood before an assembled crowd, vowing to their spouse that they have seen the errors of their ways. My experience on this site tells me that doesn't always happen. The wayward often knows what they did was wrong and vows to right their ways. It didn't work for them or their family. They come back to the marriage, quietly, without fanfare. They agree to their betrayed spouse's terms and proceed with recovery.

I do think you have read some posts here and have applied your own interpretation of their recovery. You're not there, so you can't possibly know the extent of their remorse or recovery.

Now, having said that: if a wayward lets their spouse know that they aren't sorry they had an affair, there's a problem.

And, having said all that, why do you ask?

So, Aromale, you've got your answers. I see that you've been here for a few years. What's your story? Why are you here? I apologize if I missed it.

See his post #2593089.

Aaromale,

I've already spent more time than I have here this morning. I will read and think a bit. Probably be able to post back to you when I get to Tokyo next week.

Titans

Thanks, Aphelion.

Maritalbliss:
Thanks for the reply.
Yes...I did interpret the FWS remorse to be something very expressive. But aren't there cases where the FWS does not even express remorse at all. Or even share to their BS what they think of their affair and themselves now. I believe there are FWS who are that way and the BS still forgiving them, despite the FWS not having asked for forgiveness. Now this puzzled me and hence the question.

isn't there a possibility that they are not sorry about the affair and still choose not to talk about it? And the BS too, out of desperation to save the M, choose not to dig deep?

Aphelion:
Thanks for the link. Do take your time please. And a quid pro quo You've probably never listened to music from this genre. Its classical South Indian music (Carnatic) fusion with western instruments