The world watched today as 33 men were being slowly, one by one, brought up a spiraling path in a tiny capsule back to the surface after almost 70 days trapped in a mine.

Apparently alot can happen when you're in the dark. Alot of soul searching and what if's apparently, that is if you would be one of the FIVE of 33 miners who are wayward husbands, with mistresses.

One miner, was said to have had four of them. The most famous wayward miner, or "Doc" the paramedic, had his personal crisis unfold before the world. His loving and faithful wife, Salinas, stood at the mine praying and hoping he'd be out soon, and did so day after day. Soon after she noticed one woman, obviously NOT one of the wives, there doing the same thing, holding vigil like other women, but as a shameless hussy wayward ho, she ended up flaunting her rancid affair to the man's wife. Next the media caught on and voila! Exposure.

So, tonight, when the unfaithful Doc was being raised to the surface, his wife found out that his mistress was also being invited to the moment when he'd emerge from the capsule, congratulating him and hugging him, along with the President and First lady of Chile, she said it was DISRESPECTFUL; what he wanted her to do, and that she would not be a part of the day, so she left him to shame. Utter shame.

Of course the pig rutter, other woman was there to embrace him and kiss her cheating prince as he emerged. Oh the images were priceless! The brazen red-haired obese mistress smooched on her cheater for the world to see.

So today I'd say that all the cheating men, all five of them, had their affairs exposed for the entire world to see. Under bright lights, suddenly being brought to the light of day. But the funny part is the Chilean betrayed wives are standing up to the pig-rutter other women. They sure are. They're standing up for their marriages and kids and you can guarantee that those [censored]-clowns are probably not going to enjoy a home cooked meal and the loving embrace of their family, wife or even friends.

What I loved most of this whole issue was the absolute symbolism. Affairs literally coming above ground, evil, insidious affairs which rip families apart which in the past had been hidden in the dark, where the miners were.

I think the most interesting thing to note was the cheater nicknamed "Doc" was the only miner to emerge to not one cheer. No hooray for him. Or for his gutter queen mistress. The world doesn't really accept this, and it should be a lesson for us here. YOU don't have to accept it either.

So cheer for the 28 faithful dudes. Shame to the five who are wayward. Good luck cheaters, I have a feeling your double lives are now over. Here's the link:
http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/chilean-miner-yonni-barrios-emerges-to-tangled-love-life/19672990?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk1%7C177406

Oh forgot to add. I bet that Doc's gonna get ripped too, the pig-rutter, gutter queen ow, is fugly.

Crazy fugly.

Beyond fugly. Any bets on how long these exposed affairs last?

WHAT A TURD.

He is obviously a classic cake eater. His OW will feel like she "won." Claim your prize hunny. What a LOSER.

I must say though that I am a little surprised that it was only 5 of them.

Oh she ain't no prize Scotland. She is one of the seriously most fugly women I've ever seen.

He has to be so embarassed to even be seen with this monstrosity. This immoral monstrosity of a woman. It was funny.

When I saw him on tv (Doc the cheater) he kept turning his head away from the cameras. One of the commentators on the news said Doc did NOT WANT to come UP at all to the surface, as he was afraid WHAT WOULD HAPPEN when he got above ground and into the light.

Link to fugly ow & doc video:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6954850n&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CBSNewsVideo+(News+Video%3A+CBSNews.com)

I sure hope his guy friends ride him hard about even being seen with that woman.

She is definitely not like arm candy. You have to go down a notch or two when you recruit a cheater. I mean, you're not able to get the best of the best when you yourself are cheating. You can only get low grade. Seriously!

PB,
I am enjoying your posts.
You are a good writer!

I won't call that OW fugly though. Her face is purdy. It isn't about looks we all know. It isn't about flab. It isn't about the women involved as much as the wayward. A wayward man (or woman) is lost to themselves. They are not living the best life. They have issues in the way of their true happiness and they 'self medicate' with the fantasy of romance or whatever. Whoever is the other person is just partially chance. Whomever could meet an emotional need or two.

Man and I was disgusted to see his sister state that HE should leave both of the women HE deserved better and should find someone NEW. Umm excuse me isent that his issue!!!????

To quote Lucy Van Pelt: "Blech"

My sentiments exactly.

And you know that she is:

1. loving, and
2. faithful

exactly how?


Possibly after emerging from an ordeal that no one on these boards can possibly have the slightest idea about and finding that his wife wasn't there and OW was created a memorable bonding moment with OW. Just a guess.


And you know they were faithful exactly how?


Well there is nuclear exposure on a level no one here has probably seen.

Wonder if his marriage will be better for it.

Wonder if some of the miners might not owe their very lives to "Doc" the paramedic who got no applause because his OW was there.

I find the fact that this was even posted fascinating.

Does any of this in any way justify the disgusting spectacle of this man's skanky mistress meeting him at his release from the mine? I am not getting your point, unless it is to justify the affair?

A person who is good to strangers or casual friends, but rotten to his/her own family, is not a good person.

I note that you are the wayward in your sitch, so you may have trouble understanding, or at least attempting to appreciate the irony that betrayed spouses are experiencing during this event. You are leaning on the side of objectivity at all costs, when it is least appreciated here.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not interested in immediately skewering someone who bollixes up their life and the lives of those around them by having an affair. But I do think it's the better part of intelligence for a wayward to sit back and allow betrayeds to have empathy for spouses who have had their worlds turned upside down by wandering spouses.

Save the armchair marital introspection for some other website. TOW, maybe.

seekingbalance, I don't know you but I'm guessing you are/were a FWS? Just a hunch from your post, LOL.

Nevermind ~ after I posted that I went back and looked at your sig line, I should have done that first. Gotcha.

After thinking more about this I must ask ~ seekingbalance, I take it empathy isn't your strong point? Sheesh.

Ain't no "F" about a WS who writes like that.

Not an "F" that I could post on here, anyway.

Oh my....after watching that video with my eyes full of tears, I feel so so so badly for the BW...that OW has so much freaking nerve.

I am sickened by all of those standing around clapping for him/them when she hugs him. Obviously they have never been affected by infidelity. I will be praying for that BW tonight when I go to sleep...I cannot imagine what she was feeling while seeing that. How incredibly sad.

Last night my H and I watched together as they pulled the first miner out...today when he came home from work he said "geez, I'm so sick of hearing about these miners, this has been all over the news all day today". I had no idea, I'm not generally a news watcher (not in the middle of the day anyhow).

Now I understand why he was so sick of hearing about this...more affairs ruining people's lives, it's sickening.

peachy, I've gotta say this: looks often have nothing to do with attraction in an affair. Many betrayed women tear themselves up, obsessing over the OW's physical appearance and assuming the OW is superior to her. In many/most cases, the OW's appearance is immaterial, and often she is 'fugly'. Doesn't matter - obviously, there are needs she is meeting in the WH.

Ok I will be the one to say it if no one else will.

Was really puzzled by this post which sounded like a hooray for the WH and his POSOW, then I saw your signature and well.....the lights went a blazing!!!!!

The jerk asked that they both be there? What an arsewhole.

That video made me sick.

Yep, same here. Can you say "wayward?" No "WAYWARD!"

I am also guessing by the response, combined with the fact that the A was relatively recent that R is not in the cards right now? just a hunch cause I am not sensing REMORSE!!!!!

Doc was in the dark too long. He has lost his mind.

Agreed that looks have nothing to do with an A...most waywards "affair down" and that includes physical attractiveness. My observation is that affair partners know this and they instinctively also know that BECAUSE of this, they must up the ante in other areas ~ admiration, usually.

Most waywards fall hook, line and sinker for ooey-gooey, whipped-cream-with-cherries-on-top admiration. To a WS, the APs looks are not relevant once they get a good dose of "you're-the-best-thing-since-sliced-bread" from the AP.

On d-day I remember screaming at H "What is wrong with you!! She's not even pretty!!". He just hung his head and said "I know".

I didnt read the whole thread yet....but this is my WH...He actually texted me once saying "You know what mades me feel good? All the people I work with like me and think Im a great guy."


THAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD!!!! Your family thinks your scum and the guys at work think you are a great guy...and the key word here is "think"... They thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy too.

Hey, the miners are ALIVE. So there is still time to become better people. If they had died, that would be the end of it.

We have a saying in our language which says something like "S..t will always rise to the surface of water".

...

Possibly after emerging from an ordeal that no one on these boards can possibly have the slightest idea about and finding that his wife wasn't there and OW was created a memorable bonding moment with OW. Just a guess.

Reall???? What planet are you from? This skanky OW doesn't have any decency about herself or morals. She is so far out of line that she needs to be whipped in the streets. The OW is always a dog ugly woman and that is why she grovels and kissed the WS behind like any other dog.

This post earlier of mine was in response to seekingbalanve!!

I am also guessing by the response, combined with the fact that the A was relatively recent that R is not in the cards right now? just a hunch cause I am not sensing REMORSE!!!!!

Just look at the signature of seeking, and it tells you a whole lot. I hope that her BS is not under the impression that the fog has lifted for her, I hope to god he has some fog lights!!!

This is true, I hope they take advantage of this life-changing event and DO become better people.

I hope this for the OW as well ~ anyone can redeem themselves and I sincerely pray that they do.

But isn�t that exactly what you are doing?

I have no idea what TOW is.


Are you saying �go away wayward, your observations are not welcome here because of your wayward status"?

I think the existence, content, and response to my very benign post are indicative of the tone of this forum. The lens through which posters appear to see me, the conclusions they are willing to jump to on very thin evidence and the direction in which they jump is so telling.

My very benign post made a couple of observations and posed a couple of questions. Here are some of the responses:


I see nothing in the post suggesting that I�m not empathetic.


I don�t see any basis upon which that could reasonably be concluded frm my post.




There is no hooray stated or implied. There is no suggestion that I was trying to whitewash the miner's infidelity.

What I said was that the reunion between the BH and his OW in this context was probably a bonding moment. Does anyone seriously think otherwise? I didn�t suggest in any way, shape or form that I thought that was a good thing.


No substance here � just shouting.


I was making objective observations about a news story, and this poster jumps to the conclusion that (1) I have no remorse, (2) remorse is a prerequisite to recovery, and, therefore, (3) recovery is not in the cards.

Here is my point: if, as Dr.H suggests, somewhere around 50% or more of marriages will experience infidelity in some form, that�s a whole lot of people. For every BS, there is by definition a WS. DrH may have statistics, but I see the WS presence on this forum statistically underrepresented.

Why might that be? Probably a lower percentage of WS are looking for help than BS�s. But even if only 20% of WS�s are seeking help, they are still statistically underrepresented.

I wonder if part of the reason why is the tone of this forum, which, I think is evidenced in this thread. How many WS�s are going to read on this forum for long and post given the tone?

For every WS who wants help and is turned away by the tone, there is a BS who is not receiving the benefit of the advice the WS would be receiving.

I�ve said it before: any WS who shows up here and stays is either stupid or brave. To be honest, I�m not sure which one I am, but right now I�m leaning towards stupid.

To my knowledge, there are currently three WW�s posting here, four if you count me, but I have decided not to post on my thread anymore for my own set of reasons.

Two started posting pretty long after their A�s ended, and the other one�s H is having RA�s. I started posting the very day I ended my A. If I had had the slightest idea what was going to happen, there is no way I would have posted. This was my first forum � I didn�t even know such a thing existed until I stumbled on it the day I ended the A after weeks of reading on the site.

What if the tone of the forum was �WS, come on in! We know you put yourself in a dark, scary horrible place and dragged those you love right along with you. You have done a terrible thing, and probably feel there is no redemption, not way out. Good news! We know the way and want to lead you. The road out is very narrow and really scary too � rocks may fall on you, slimy things will crawl over your feet, you may trip over some roots and get bruised and you may want to backtrack and have a look at that root, you may want to stop at times and rest, or take a moment to look at something pretty, you may go down rabbit trails, and feel so lost you get terrified and want to quit, and you may feel like the road will never end. But we know this road � will you trust us to not let go and take you to a beautiful place.�?

Or, to put in terms that are consistent with the subject matter of this thread, the WS is the miner stuck underground, and the forum has the tools to drill the rescue hole and the pod to lift the WS out through a very narrow chute.

I don�t think that is inconsistent in any way with the MB program. DrH�s materials show great compassion for the WS. He talks in SAA (I think that�s where I read it, don�t have my copy handy) about how the WS is so trapped and in so much pain that suicide sometimes seems the only way out. I haven�t noted him characterizing the WS as �selfish� or �entitled�, adjectives that are routinely used here to describe the WS, in any of the materials I have read � �misguided� is as far as I�ve seen him go. A requisite level of apologizing and remorse doesn�t seem to play into his recovery scheme http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5061_qa.html, and yet that seems to be a theme on the forum in general and on this very thread.

DrH also instills hope that a post infidelity marriage can be even better than the pre-infidelity marriage:

�I believe marriages that have been torpedoed by affairs need not sink. They can be towed into dry dock, repaired and refitted. Once refitted, they will sail farther and faster than at any previous time.�

My counseling sessions with SteveH likewise didn�t have the tone of this forum. I hate the idea that a WS might choose not to avail himself of such a valuable resource because of the tone I see here.

I know that I don�t have the power to change the tone. All I can do is continue to play the music the way I see the conductor telling me to play.

I heard exactly the same thing from XWH. My response was, "They aren't MARRIED to you, are they?"

What a terrible ordeal for "Doc's" wife. First she believes he is dead - and then, at the very end, she finds out - that he is.

You seem to have missed something: *F*WS are more than welcome here. WS are not. Unless and until you become a FWS and not a WS, you are invited to join TOW board (that stands for The Other Woman). They are probably popping champagne corks right now for the OW who ran off the miner's wife and greeted him herself on international TV. You'll fit right in.

Seeking

Leat me refer you back to my post.
Many Ws post here, and they get 2x4s and they get assistance and guidance.
However, guidance cannot be embraced unless and until remorse has set it.

I can say this to you, the tone of your poss clearly says to me that you are not there yet. You have a ways to go.

SB, what you seem to be missing is that "compassion" for the WS is inappropriate. They are the perpetuators of a great crime against a betrayed spouse and his own children, and very often the spouse of his OP. Compassion belongs to the victims of his crime.

Would you advocate "compassion" for the rapist or would you reserve your compassion for his rape victim? Do you see how inappropriate your suggestion of compassion is in that light?

What you are interpreting as meaness is actually moral outrage at injustice. Decent people are supposed to be outraged at injustice. And since you are wayward yourself, you wrongly interpret this as meanness and are shockingly oblivious to the cruelty inflicted upon this man's wife on international TV. Only the foggiest mind could not see that.

What you have witnessed here is the moral outrage of the horrific scene at the Chilean mine, where a marriage wrecking scumbag OW ran off the natural wife of this man and took her rightful place. Somehow the cruelty in that act has escaped you. In a warped perception, you have sympathy and "compassion" for the perpetuators of that crime and are defending the rapists.

The wife of that Chilean miner has just been dealt a blow as traumatic as the death of a child, a rape or a physical assault. This was all played out on international TV. This woman, who has no seen her own husband in 69 days, was treated so cruelly by the adulterers that she could not bear to stay and see her H emerge from the mine.

And your sympathy is for the adulterers who perpetuated that crime? Do you truly not understand why others are looking at you in shock? Someone who sides with waywards in this way is clearly operating with a wayward mind, SB.

You don't see it, but others here do.

I would suggest that you are the least objective person on this thread for several reasons. You are a wayward who is still in a fog and because of that, are inclined to DEFEND other waywards. Recovered waywards do not defend adulterers like this.

I hope that you do recover someday, SB, but be assured it is viewpoints like this that reveal a state of mind that is still very foggy.

Or sincerely remorseful. The remorseful ones who are sincere about recovery do just fine, thank you. The problem is that bullcrap has a short shelf life around here.

So whether you are a BS or a WS, if you spout bullcrap, you are very likely to get a well intended 2x4.

The problem is not the board, SB, but your own foggy thinking. Foggy thinking will always be challenged on this board, thankfully.

The problem lies with the lady in the mirror. I realize it is much easier to point the finger of blame to everyone else, but all it does is distract you from the real problem, which is the lady in the mirror. Look in the mirror, SB.

Seeingbalance, people HAVE tried to help you on this forum...some gently, and some wielding 2x4s. It doesn't seem to matter HOW people post to you, you still don't "get it".

You are obviously intelligent, or you wouldn't be an attorney; however, you cannot intellectualize wrong into being right or making wrongdoing a reasonable action. Mental intelligence does not exempt a person from being, as is commonly said in my neck of the woods, "eaten up with the dumb@$$".

As for the miner having a "bonding moment" with the OW...well, his FIRST thought upon arriving to daylight and not seeing his BW SHOULD have been, "Oh, [censored]! I've totally messed up!"
Why on earth should he expect his wife to nicely stand by and watch him hug and kiss his skank?

So many WSs think that the BS should "just get over it"; but, really, how would they feel if their BS really did "just get over it"? IMHO, a BS who is able to "just get over it" is not someone who is truly in love with the WS.

MB, I wanted to point out that dismay about cruelty to others is not the exlusive domain of victims. Decent people are ALWAYS dismayed at injustice. The dismay shown here has NOTHING to do with being a betrayed spouse, but with being DECENT.

Decent people are supposed to be outraged at injustice.

Obviously I am a WS as well so keep that in mind. I read SB's post as a bit more analytical. I think the point she made about the bonding moment was to point out that his love bank is being filled by the OW, not the plan A advocated on here. If the wife had been talking to Steve H. she most likely would have been told, you get there and you keep your rightful place no matter what. Or, as some BS's are told on here, put your big girl panties on. My guess is that the emotions of that moment did not allow for good decision making on anyone's part. (Except the media who deliberately thrives ont his stuff)

SB, I will say I'm sorry you stopped posting on your thread. I would love to hear what Steve H. is counseling you and your H (or maybe just you). I do understand the need for 2X4's though in that they don't know how long they have a person's attention on these boards so they need to get their point across swift and solid. It may not strike the WS then and there and it may scare them away; however, it may also plant a seed to be revisted another day.

Good luck and God Bless

The only reason I'd have been there when he came to the surface would have been to tell him, "The first thing you need to do is the right thing...tell her to get lost and stay lost!"

The WH apparently thought he was going to get to have a bonding moment with two women...well, kudos to his BW for not playing that game!

And this injustice is to be blamed on the WIFE and not the perpetuators of the crime? I don't agree that SB's post was the least analytical in that it completely missed the true injustice in this scenario. Rather is reflects a profound level of fog that confuses the real victims here.

As a betrayed spouse, I most certainly would not involve myself in a circus act on international TV where the OW was given equal opportunity to greet my own husband. What woman would possibly involve herself with such a scene? To expect this woman to stand there and be given equal footing with a skanky OW would be degrading to her. I would have left too.

Plan A has nothing to do with degrading yourself in order to make lovebank deposits, that is a ridiculous notion. The degradation of such involvement would most certainly cause MASSIVE lovebank deposits on the part of the wife. You don't sacrifice your integrity and your dignity to make lovebank deposits. NEVER.


Lets please remember who the real victim is here. It is not the skanky OW and the scummy WS.

Oh no, I don't blame the WIFE at all. In fact, there is no way that I would be there for that spectacle either. It is just sad that the OW is being given that opportunity to be involved in one of the most moving and memorable moments of that man's life. That is soooo sad.

I agree. It makes me sick. This was profoundly cruel to the BW. Its too bad she wasn't run off by the folks running the operation.

Well I did not realize that SB was an attorney.

So, from one attorney to the other, I am now one hundred percent sure that she is still in a fog. Intelligence plays no role here.

You can logic this one out any way you want to, there is no defense here for either the WS or the OW.

From a legal standpoint, he has a wife that ought to be showed a modicum of respect. She is legally entitled to that.
Look, we are all human beings, and I think that most of us can accept that there is a possibility that you can fall out of love with someone, the issue is how do you handle it.
You have an legal contract-you don't get to just discard your obligations under that contract. You have to first get yourself out of the contract, before entering into the other relationship, where essentially the same obligations will arise.

From a moral standpoint, whatever the reason for the failure of a marriage, it is inherent in both parties to end it in a manner that brings about the least pain.

The public humiliation of the wife here is unforgiveable. There is nothing positive that can be gained from it.

OMG, you are delusional if you truly see nothing wrong with this post. Allllll these posters see huge, glaring issues with what you've written and still you don't see it? Holy delusional thinking, Batman.

TOW=The Other Woman

Out of curiosity, why stick around if you don't like it? Why not go find some coddlers to pat your back and tell you your posts are fantastic and that it's certainly a sign that you are healing and gosh darnit, your M is probably doing fabulous if this is the way you think?

There are lots of FWSs here who have "gotten it" and stick around ~ my H reads everything I post here, he posts on occasion. Mrs. W, tst, gloveoil...all are FWSs who stick around and don't get called out on their ridiculous posts because they "get it".

Great post, ITA with you teaser.

Really? I think I have seen that term used often simply because it is the truth of the matter.



If a BS requires an apology that is their choice to make. To some it is important, to others it is not...or at least something they are willing to forego. But I would bet my right arm that all BSs want a sincere apology. A cheap apology are merely words that no BS wants. If a WS is remorseful, he/she will WANT to apologize. This isn't rocket science.

Big HUGE difference between Dr. H and us is Dr. H is a psychologist/counselor whose best interest is to keep as unbiased an opinion as possible for those he is trying to help.

It is not possible for those of us who have BEEN THROUGH an affair to be "unbiased". We have been hurt horribly by a FWS and when one comes here spouting perceived sympathy for a WS and his mistress, our hurt comes comes pouring out and we are outraged.

I'll save myself the copying and pasting but the terms "self-absorbed" and "heartless" have even been used to describe wayward behavior.

Anyway...the BW was smart to leave. The Chilean OW had no shame...obviously.

I have heard him refer to waywards as selfish many times. In fact, he equates the behavior of waywards to that of RAPISTS and wife beaters when he describes the cruelty and trauma of an affair.

But lets say he never characterized a WS as selfish or entitled? Does that mean it is not true? Are you suggesting that posters are obliged to help dysfunctional waywards pretend like they are NOT selfish and entitled?

The truth is that waywards very much ARE selfish and entitled.

The fact that you are chastising others for accurately describing wayward behavior tells me your problem is not with the forum, but with the TRUTH. And people on this forum are not going to help you run from the truth.

Adulterers are selfish, self centered, cruel and entitled. Until you can look at yourself and admit the truth, you have no chance of recovery. Honesty is the first step and you have not even taken STEP ONE, Madam.

P.S. we also know that you will not recover your M if you express to your BH what you expressed here. And that is a tragedy because your BH deserves better than that ~ you both do. Your M CAN be better than ever but it's going to take a whole heck of a lot of humility on your part. Unfortunately, from your post you are not expressing humility, not at all.

Do you mean "unbiased" or morally neutral? There is a huge difference. Being unbiased does not mean you don't know right from wrong and have checked your morals at the door. And Dr Harley most certainly is not morally neutral when it comes to the crime of adultery.

I consider myself unbiased when it comes to these issues, but I am certainly not morally neutral, a sign of moral cowardice at best or a defunct conscience at worst.

One does not have to be "hurt" by a crime in order to become outraged by injustice. For example, I am outraged when I hear about robbery victims. I am not outraged because I have been a robbery victim, but because I am DECENT. Only an uncaring person would not be outraged at the cruelty inflicted on this poor married woman.

Since the problem, or issue, I was addressing was the fact that fewer WS�s seek help here than do BS�s, I�m certain I�m not the problem.

You might think that isn�t a problem.

You might think that my suggestion that the overall tone of the board, in distinction from my personal thread, might have something to do with that is wrong.

You might think that it isn�t abundantly clear when a post, however harsh it might be, is meant to be helpful versus demeaning. You are wrong.


This is illustrative of what I see as the issue.

There is no way what I wrote could be construed as a defense of the WS or OW.

In actual fact, Sunnydaze was right on in spotting what I was thinking. The wife in the situation is in a lose/lose. That bonding moment between her H and the OW may be a tough hurdle to overcome if she wants to save her M. On the other hand, the public humiliation of being there would be unendurable, at least for me. What that woman is going through is appalling.


Again illustrative of what I see as the issue. I wasn't "chastising" anyone. I was pointing out something I've noticed in DrH's books.

I agree that WS�s are selfish and entitled. They are also lost souls.

I�ve gotten lots of great help here and I am thankful for it. I want more WS�s to seek out that great help. I wonder how to do that, and the last post was my thoughts on the point.

Not ML, but obviously this is not true if many construed it that way. Your very first remark implied that the BW may not be loving and/or faithful...what was the point of that remark? You say "we" (in the universal sense) don't know but neither do you. The tone of that remark alone sounds like you were trying to defend the APs.

SB, yes fewer WS seek help here because fewer WS seek help in general. That is the nature of the beast. What a sincere WS will find here is the help they need. They don't find people who will tell fogged out waywards what they want to hear or pretend like they aren't selfish. That is not helpful; it is not support.

The WS's here who are recovered value this place as a source of support and learning. And how does their perspective differ from yours? They are recovered, you are not.

A WS who is sincere about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. If a WS leaves it means they weren't really sincere in the first place.


Yet you didn't say that. Finally we see a slight demonstration of empathy for the victim in this horror show. That gives me some hope.

That "bonding moment" with her scuzzy WS and the OW would be even harder to overcome if she had to watch it up close and suffer the humiliation on international TV. The lovebuster would have probably been unsurmountable for most BS. In fact, what happened might well be the end of the marriage for the BS. I can't imagine overcoming the resentment from such a cruel and brazen act heaped upon her by 2 pigs.

I dont see how your post was helpful...

Yes, they are lost. They are self will run riot. BY CHOICE. They are victims of their own hand.

And I don't believe you brought up the point that Dr Harley doesn't call WS's selfish and entitled as a complaint. Its obvious to readers why you brought it up. You don't like it when board members state the obvious.

But, you know better what you mean so if you are agreeing that WS are selfish and entitled there is no problem in saying that waywards are - in truth - selfish and entitled. Then we have no issue. Because you can be assured that needs to be brought up early and often.

Odd, because if you read what Dr H RECOMMENDS with respect to the apologizing:


So it may not be required, but if you want to have the best possible outcome, it's certainly recommended. So there is little to gain by arguing that one does not need to apologize. If you only want bologna instead of steak and lobster, then you can stick to the idea that an apology is not necessary.

I think you are missing the parts where he says the WW is selfish. After all, the Taker by definition is selfish. So unless you are dismissing the very notion of the taker being in charge, then there is your indication of being selfish.

When the taker is in charge, one is being selfish. The WS ends the affair with resentment and with the taker still in charge if I understand what I'm reading in the link you've provided.

So apparently Dr H does say the WS is selfish. He just says it more politely. But that's what taker in charge translates to.

To add to that:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html


That sure sounds pretty selfish to me. So let's go back and look at Dr H's description of the WS right after the affair is over:


OK, without saying the words selfish, Dr H has called the WW in this example SELFISH.

Unless someone else reads the definition of taker different from what Dr H wrote?

Yep, thats selfish! And he uses that very word all the time! Even so, I can't imagine why that was even brought up from someone who AGREES that WS's are selfish.

What was the point in even bringing it up if you agree waywards are selfish, SB?

Ok reading that thread has totally depressed me. This place is supposed to be helping those that need it. I didn't like that post either which was specifically about ranting at 'waywards'. Oh well.

I'd not say that a non-apologetic recovery is bologna vs. steak & lobster. Dr. Harley is on record as stating that he's seen many fully-recovered marriages where the wayward wife never apologized, but very few fully-recovered marriages where the wayward husband never apologized.

If I had insisted on a full and public apology when my wife was still foggy, it would be likely I'd be talking visitation and child support rather than here typing while my lovely wife is taking a brief nap on the bed next to me.

Eventually, of course, she offered several apologies for her behavior. As I did for my thoughtlessness in helping creating the conditions in our marriage in which the affair could occur. An apology should happen somewhere in recovery.

But getting an apology out of a foggy wayward wife, according to Dr. Harley? "Well, that's a trick".

I am sickened and depressed at the cruelty shown to the wife of the Chilean miner by 2 waywards. Nothing here compares ro the cruelty and meanness of that act. Thankfully we are on a board helping those who need it and that doesn't mean whitewashing the crimes of waywards.

I know that poor woman...I just imagine what I went through with my WH and she had it on national tv and OW in her face...So much worse. We know all to well the devastation she is probably going through. It breaks my heart...

It is awful not on the same level but reminds me how brazen OW can be. I remember one night when H was drunk and I had his phone and OW rang and and I picked up and she carried on and asked to speak to him.

LOL...yes, OW are extremely brazen. This is part of what eventually blows up the A, it's a turn-off to many MM.

Maybe to me it's just the blatant actions that make her a totally fugly gutter queen.

The way she flaunted her status, her sin to the world makes me want to slap that silly fog smile off her face.

The way you behave can certainly influence how attractive you are perceived to be imho.

ITA...and it works both ways too...

I never asked my ex-wife for an apology, and true to form, she felt 100% justified in having her affair, getting her divorce, etc.

So it's now a requirement for me should my wife betray me. She has about a nanosecond to apologize because there is no way I personally would try to win another WW back to me.

I wish those who would well, but like Dr Harley, I too would not attempt to win a wayward wife back.

It would take an apologetic, immediately repentant WW for me to even consider letting her back in my life once I knew of the affair.

But that's just my personal opinion shaped by experience and the position stated publicly by Dr H.

It occurs to me that empathy for their victims and genuine remorse on the part of a WS are blocked by the WS's deseprate attemtp to hold onto even a shred of pride. Having done such a terrible thing, they KNOW they have thrown their honor away, but grab at any little thing to convince themselves that they are indeed honorable people.

HUMILIT is what many unrepentent wayward spouses are lacking...a total absence of pride.

So, I would suggest to a WS, "Lose the pride. Committing adultery is nothing about which you should be proud. Humble yourself before your victims."

Seriously, losing the attiude will only HELP your marriage...and YOU in the long run.

As for the miner, I hope that he is missing his wife so badly that looking at his skanky mistress is making him sick.

Not to mention sending a clear message to WH, OW and the entire viewing world of "Yes, I will tolerate your girlfriend." THAT is why the BW absolutely should have left the site and refused to be there when he came up - so she would not send that message, even inadvertently, to the two of them or to anyone else.

Nice dig, SB.

For future FYI, it is actually not "fascinating" when we post about disgusting wayward behavior in the media and we exhibit sympathy for the victim in the case, the BS. Those types of threads are not uncommon here.

Contrast the garden implement shrilling to international TV cameras that the BW only wanted him for his money...

to

a quiet, savagely injured woman withdrawing from an incomprehensible situation, saying only that she couldn't be there because "I'm a decent woman."

I wish I could give her a hug.

Wowzers! I really do hope you stick around, SB. The bad news is you're way foggy, but the good news is if you stay, post, and learn, the fog will dissipate.

In fact, I challenge you to stay for 6 months, then go back and read your early posts. Once you get out of the foggarbage, you too will be able to recognize even a whiff of it wafting around.

Bonding moment, schmonding schmoment. An unrepentant wayward will make anything a bonding moment. If the BW had been there, it would still have been a bonding moment for the wayward, because OW lurved him enough to be there even with the BW. Instead, the BW is very sensibly withdrawing from an untenable situation, and hopefully the A will implode on its own.

Waywards can turn cesspools into bonding moments. It proves nothing except that they're delusional.

All the best to you and your BH. I really do hope you stay long enough to earn your F.

I don't understant why a women would shamelessly pursue another womans H? Surely the fact that she has done that in the first place should put the H off her? I don;t know...