So as a purely academic discussion, I was thinking about the thought process of a counselor who has advised another poster that she needed to "release the hate from her heart" and forgive the other woman who also happens to live in the same neighborhood.

Of course there is the advice here given by Dr Harley to eliminate contact with an affair partner for life which of course is pretty much impossible due to the proximity.

But there was another thread of persuasion that revolved around the idea that the BW herself would be triggered by the mere presence / seeing / hearing about the OW.

So I went looking for what this possible advice could be and I found a series of articles based around the idea of "A Process To Find Healing For Personal Trigger Points". I believe this is along the lines of what was being advised to this particular poster by her counselor and was wondering why that actually wouldn't work?

The final step in the process described was :

�Forgive the other participant(s)
�Forgive yourself for your original role in your pain
�Forgive yourself for perpetuating your pain

One quote was this:

"
If a person really bought into that idea and believed it, would that really allow them not to trigger over something like, say an OW living in the same neighborhood?

Is the psychology of that just fundamentally flawed somehow?

I'd post a link to the article but not sure that's allowed.

Anyway, just an academic exercise if someone has the time and wants to comment.

I sent an email a while ago to Dr H asking about forgiving the OW. Dr Harley's response was awesome as always. I don't have the link, maybe someone can put it up for you. I sent the email on 9/19 and I think the email was responded the following week.

Basically what Dr. Harley said is that you forgive someone you wish to restore a relationship with. In this case you are better off with NC to OW, so there is no need to forgive. Sure you have to let go off your hurt but that is only achieved by just compensation.

I do understand the idea of no contact. I'm purposely ignoring the no contact provision as it's non-debatable in my book.

But suppose the person just decided to "forgive" the person in their own heart without contacting them? Could one really get to the place where they were not affected emotionally by the proximity of the OW?

Asked another way, I've always heard to just avoid triggers in the first place. I guess it never occurred to me that people might be advised to "get over" them.

Here it is Radio Clip of Alada's Question on Forgiving OW

This premise misses the whole dynamic of an affair. That would be like telling an alcoholic to just "get over" his alcohol addiction and keep drinking. An affair is an addiction just the same as alcohol. So seeing the OW every day is the same as having a drink. Living in the same neighborhood is the equivalence of going into the bar every day, so the affair is top of mind at all times. That is the greatest problem with living right by an OP.

As far as the BS experience, it would be like living next to your rapist. Every day you would be reminded of your rape. Adultery is a greater crime, of course, so the reminder would be worse. All the fake "forgiveness" will not wipe out one's bad memories.

And in the case of an affair, "forgiveness" is not appropriate or necessary. It is just a silly, feel good step that is harmful to recovery. The purpose of "forgiveness" is reconciliation and obviously one should not continue reconcile with the OP. The OP should be removed from the marriage completely. One does not have to go through a fake forgiveness in order to release "hate" from their heart.

The issue here is not "forgiveness" but a matter of staying in the environment that led to the affair. Obviously, an alcoholic cannot continue to drink and hang out in the bar and expect to sober up. Neither can an adulterer withdraw living next to his girlfriend.

I don't think doing a fake, one-way "forgiveness" will erase feelings of tragedy and sorrow brought on the presence of a rapist. I can chant "I forgive, I forgive, I forgive, I forgive" and that will never erase my bad feelings about my XH. What erased my bad feelings was removing him from my life.

But chanting "I forgive, I forgive, I forgive, I forgive" is not a magical recipe to wipe out feelings of tragedy and sorrow.

Do we imagine that saying "I forgive, I forgive, I forgive, I forgive" has magical properties?

Agree with all that Mel posted but wanted to touch on this^^^. This is just crap IMO. You don't know if the other person harmed you because "they were in great pain of their own." Some people are are just messed up, selfish and don't care...their supposed pain has nothing to do with it. And even if they were in some sort of pain, depending on the severity of the hurt/damage they inflicted, I wouldn't care about their pain. It would be an excuse.

This makes the assumption that all people are decent. Some aren't.

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This is a psychobabble illusion that enablers concoct to make it easier to accept the unacceptable. Misplaced compassion gives power to evil.

The OP should become a distant memory if you heal properly.

Im always highly suspicious of the advice to forge a forgiving relationship with a stranger.

Now in my case, she was a good friend, but obviously she is a stranger today.

I don't give any more thought to her sins (which I hope are over) than I do the sins of many other strangers in the world. Indeed any dwelling WOULD keep hate alive.

It's crazy to suggest the victim has any responsibility. It's the sinners responibilty to find forgiveness.

The web is alive with this kind of victim blaming hokum and it is repulsive.

Well I should point out that in this case the OW was a best friend as well.

In the case we are talking about, the WH is a serial cheat. He is out trolling for trouble. What happens is he trash talks his W to other women (and everybody else apparently) and uses that as an "in" with these other women. I don't think it really matters who actually which makes me wonder if this particular woman even matters at all as far as he is concerned.



This is the part that I was wondering about in this thread. People convince themselves of all sorts of stuff. I'm just wondering if they actually truly believe it if it works just because of that. There is all sorts of examples out there of that kind of thing. Waco Texas comes to mind.

Would it be OK to post the link to the article I'm talking about? I don't mean for it to be authoritative. It just sounds so good when laid out like that and wanted to examine it.

Nevermind. I haven't been modded yet so if this is against the TOS I apologize.

Healing from Emotional Triggers

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You walk away! Forgiveness involves walking TOWARDS.

Dear darling Pep's wisdom got me out of resentment's shadow. To her mountain analogy a few years back I posted





I don't miss thinking about the inner workings of OWs heart at all (would you bother for a house burglar? Or just move to a safer neighbourhood?)

But I do miss Pep and her wealth of experience.

Haha. I just got some insight into your user name. It just so happens we are watching Raiders of the Lost Ark this morning.

FTF, is this really the article you were talking about? It talks about "deep healing" - is it the one you intended? Is it meant to be read in conjunction with other articles? It does not mention the things you have raised here.

I think the one linked is terrible! It is the usual psychobabble about deep introspection, and the advice comes without any reason for why it is being suggested.

"From here you begin to repeat the process of asking how do I feel and why do I feel that way, about every emotion, reason, and new trigger that comes up as an answer.

This seems like a lot of work, and it is at first, but eventually you get really efficient at it and no longer even need to make note of every step. You also may eventually find that there are a lot less common denominators than you even realized. You might be triggered 50 ways by the same fundamental open wound.

A lot of people like to write a classic web, or flow chart, or write a journal or just take point form notes to complete this process. You can do whatever method works for you as long as you allow this process to take as much natural time as it needs. You might spend months pondering why you have a certain reaction. Or you might find that several answers come at once like falling dominoes. Allow the process to take the time it needs and allow yourself to stop and take a break from it if you become overwhelmed."

You're not seriously suggesting that this has any role to play I recovery from an affair, are you, FTF? People need to think about why they are triggered when they bump into someone with OP's name? They need to write a flow chart of complete a journal to get to the the root of the trigger? Seriously?

FTF, I know you know better than this! Why would you recommend this nonsense - from a "spiritual seeker" and stand-up comedian?

I certainly don't endorse the article. And I did zero research on the author. It was just at the top of the Google search I did. But it seemed to be in line with the type of advice being offered to the poster in question. Please don't think I believe this stuff. Recommended? Hardly.

This part (underlined) I just don't see. I don't see any similarity between the advice anywhere on this forum and that article, which is what made me ask whether you linked the correct one.

By discussing it and saying that it was similar to advice offered to a poster here, it sounded as if you were saying you were pleasantly surprised - but I apologise if I've misrepresented your position.

These points:

...did not appear in the article you linked, so I am still puzzled about that.

Oh I see the confusion. I didn't mean advice offered here. I meant advice offered by their MC.

So we already know that he is tempted when around this woman, so that is the first thing that should be removed from his life. If I am an alcoholic who is tempted by gin and marijuana, I should avoid those things.



This is the part that I was wondering about in this thread. People convince themselves of all sorts of stuff. I'm just wondering if they actually truly believe it if it works just because of that. There is all sorts of examples out there of that kind of thing. Waco Texas comes to mind. [/quote]

I don't think Dr Harley has any motive to "convince" himself of anything. His advice is based on clinical experience. This was also the conclusion of studies cited in "One Nation under Therapy."

FTF, I can see where you are going here. Either you are trying to get our help in fighting the nonsense coming from HeartLost's "marriage counselor" or you agree with her, I am not sure which. The bottom line is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I predict she will have to hit bottom in order to get it.

You're on to me. I certainly don't agree with the article cited or the advice being spouted by this councelor. And I have no professional training myself of course. So I defer to the expert. I admit I'm a Dr Harley fan boy. I just want to be able to argue these points from a place of strength. I really do enjoy talking about and refining my own knowledge regarding marital relationships.

My persistence makes me very good at my professional career. I'll admit it sometimes gets me I to trouble otherwise.

Gotcha! Did you read my explanation about the addiction aspect? This is what the MC is missing. The MC doesn't understand the addiction aspect of affairs and also has a strange view about forgiveness versus forgetting.

Like i said above, I can chant "I forgive....." over and over again, it won't erase an addiction and it won't erase the memory of the tragedy of the past. I wonder if the MC would recommend this method to rape victims and suggest they maintain contact with their rapist? That not only keeps the tragedy top of mind, but invites more rapes. That is what this couple is doing.

Well I certainly understand the rape analogy. But I do struggle with defending the addiction aspect of it. There was very little connection with this woman in particular. As a BS, I can certainly see how in time the triggers associated with even driving by her street are enough of a reason to get out of town. But I fail at convincing that this woman in particular is a threat.

The addiction aspect applies to the WS, not the BS.

I understand that part. I'm just not personally convinced he's necessarily addicted to this woman in particular. This is a guy out trolling. I get the impression she's just one of many.

The key thing to remember is that this affair with this woman has almost destroyed his marriage. Splitting hairs about the depth of his feelings does not remove the temptation that led to the affair in the first place. That is a very dangerous risk to take. Instead of minimizing and ignoring the risk, the safest path is to REMOVE the risk.

That doesn't mean that previous OP's are not a risk, it just means that a more global approach is necessary for recovery.

i am concerned that you are telling this poor BS that "you are not convinced" that this woman in particular is a risk. That is probably why she doesnt see the risk herself. Your powers of persuasion are not being used in her best interest.

Are you telling her you are not convinced this OW is a threat to her marriage? Is that why she is so averse to taking Dr. Harley's advice?

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Is this why we are having to spend our free time having this discussion? Because you don't believe Dr. Harley?

No I've removed myself from giving advice once again until I'm asked again when all this blows up. I figure it will take about a year or so. Maybe less maybe more.

I will say that I'm totally flabbergasted by the response of this BS though. She is pretty consistent in her position that she is not bothered at all by the OW. Just today, as predicted, another neighbor mentioned the OW in conversation and she said she wasn't the slightest bit affected by it. I think it bothered me more than anyone present to be honest.

It doesn't flabbergast me at all. She will say or do anything to justify not moving. So sad to see where she is headed.

If her husband is a serial cheater, how much sense does it make to live next door to a woman who will cheat with him? That is like the alcoholic sitting in the bar all day tempting fate. Sure, the alcoholic can go find alcohol anywhere, anytime, but if the opportunity is sitting right before him every day he will be more likely to drink again.

I know. I guess we'll see what happens in this particular situation. I know what's likely.

Even though veteran posters here (Mel, Glove Oil, Sugar Cane) explained to me about the nature of my fWH's addiction, I did not get it. I had zero experience with any kind of addiction, too. And, that my fWH could lie to my face for 5 months during our FR, was incomprehensible to me.
I think it is fairly easy for a BS to deny to themselves that their WS is not acting sanely. Especially when BS's are under the extreme stress of newly discovered A's.
Not excusing this poster, just saying she doesn't see it. She believes her (lying, cheating, gaslighting) WH that he has no feelings for this OW.

My husband is far from and serial cheater, he also is not out here trolling. He has not had sex with any other women the 15 years we have been together. How I know is because we have lived together for 15 years and worked together, same schedule for most of them years. We have never gone out separate. We don't and have never been a party couple. When I busted the affair the husband of the other women even said " I know my wife is the one who approach your husband". I already knew that because he's never approached women. He didn't even approach me when we first got together. It didn't matter to me though who approached who because it doesn't hurt any less. You guys are more than welcome to continue and bash my husband because I will not move. You guys are absolutely nothing to me and do not know us personally. You can try and predict the future all you would like. I thank God I don't know any of you guys in real life! I do know fight the fight and I am actually extremely upset that he would even get on here and try and make my husband out to be something he absolutely is not. My god, he had an affair and is extremely remorseful and knows that if it happens again that he will lose his family. I will not try again. He will even loose his job because they say "if your wife can't trust you then how in the hell are we supposed to trust you running our business". there has been many many people there loose their job over an affair. They don't allow it. And if you know my husband there is only 2 things that would hurt him the most and that would be to loose his family and his job that he absolutely loves.

Heartbrokenlost, you can reject the Marriage Builders program and move on. You don't need our approval to reject the advice. I am baffled why you feel the need to keep coming back to defend your program when you have rejected ours. It is ok. Just reject it..... You won't get our approval, but you don't need it.

Also if anyone like a copy of all the text email me at *edit*. I will let you read them yourself. THE AFFAIR WAS THOUGH TEXT ONLY!

So? It makes no difference.

Even so, you don't have to prove anything to us. Just reject it and move on..

I have reject and moved on, then I see I am still being talked about. I would like it if you guys would just move on to your next victim. I am sorry that I am headstrong and refuse to be brainwashed and become part of you guys cult.

All the more reason to move on..

I started to break this down and respond to it because there is so much to say about it but I won't.

I will say that it's not my intention to "bash" anybody. I think the world of both of you and really do hope the path you have chosen works out for the best.

I'll bow out and not mention it again.

It's really too wide an issue to concern any one couple specifically.

Do we have any thread dedicated to moving/ not moving issues we could use for those who wanted such a reference.

Might be an idea. There are so many with stalled recoveries who could do with hearing those.

The issue here is not really moving versus not moving but staying in contact with the OW. The OW is a neighbor in this case.

We have no contact with her. You can live in a neighborhood and never know someone who lives in it. This neighborhood has 500 homes in it. I live in the basement section where she does not. I own and she rents. What are the odds are her living her forever?

What we mean by "contact" is living in close proximity with the OP, as you do. She is very close and you pass her home, see her driving by, at stores, and hear about her from neighbors. It is like the alcoholic staying the bar all day; he can reach for a drink at any time. And is more likely to reach for the drink since he sees it all the time.

Anytime your husband has a moment of weakness, all he has to do is reach out because the opportunity is right there.

And once again, you can reject the advice here. You don't need our approval. I don't understand why you keep coming back trying to defend your choices. You don't need to do that. Just reject our advice and move on..

Sad that people can not be honest even with themselves when they are wrong.

It makes no difference if you aren't doing the program. Confused what you are still doing here.

Because she has her anonymous reputation to defend?