OK folks, I promised to give an update on where I see things with G after almost 9 months of dating.

You might remember that I tried to break up with her about two months ago. In many ways, I am glad we did not break up back then – I think that having spent more time together has given me a better ability to connect the dots, or to put all the individual trees into a forest, so to speak.

So, how do I see this forest? G is clearly someone with whom I am very compatible in the Wavelength and Sexual dimensions, meaning that we really see most everything the same way, react to them the same way, “get” the world the same way, and are very attracted to each other (“chemistry” or whatever). I do not underestimate the importance of compatibility in these two areas, of course, because I have seen how difficult relationships are when the compatibility is low in these two dimensions.

She is great to be with, we always laugh together and seem to enjoy being together. My kids adore her, and she seems really close to them. So I greatly enjoy being with her in this “dating” mode, as I do think that she makes a great “companion” for me – someone to go out with, without fully entangling our lives.

On the other hand, we are totally out of whack in the Practical dimension, the day-to-day lifestyle area. I would say that not any one of our differences is enough to break up, which is why we kept dating. But, now that I am able to put together all the individual trees into the “forest”, I am not liking what I see.

Not to rehash old issues, but she is basically stuck at getting up around noon, and I am up around 7. This leaves us with a 5 hour time difference in our circadian rhythms. While I tried to work around it, I am realizing that I am tired and annoyed about always planning my life and weekends with this huge accommodation to be made. I am not saying that she is wrong and I am right – as with most everything else, we are simply different. Very different. I have seen in the past few months the practical implications of this difference, and it annoys me to no end – when on vacation, I am sitting around with my thumb in my ear waiting for her to get up and get ready; when we are at home, I am driving all over town getting errands done and waiting for her to get up and join me. “Normal” things like getting up and going for a hike, going out for breakfast, or seeing a matinee at the movies, become a scheduling and negotiation exercise.

I see that once she is up, she has a totally different activity and energy level than I do. Once I am up, I am ready to do something, be it chores or errands, going for a walk, driving somewhere, whatever – but G is more inclined to sit and go through her catalogs (which she receives at a much higher rate than she gets rid of), catch up on some taped TV shows, etc. I feel like I am always tugging at her to get her out of the house, and I don’t like it. I don’t like a partner who is basically a couch potato. She seems overly preoccupied with cleanliness, for lack of a better word. So, the idea of going camping, to the beach, a bike ride, etc, really bothers her, as she does not want to get dirty or sweaty. I, on the other hand, like those kinds of activities, and do not see a problem with going camping and getting sweaty. So, over the course of this summer, as I was sitting with my kids at a beautiful campsite, looking at clear blue sky and green trees, breathing fresh air, I found myself wondering how nice it would be to have my partner right there with me enjoying the very same things.

There are still the old annoyances of her incredible clutter and almost-monthly trips back east. I have more or less come to accept those, and I consider them fairly minor compared to others.

Some of the other issues I have sort of put together into a composite picture over the months are more difficult for me to accept. The 900 pound gorilla is money (of course). I have more or less observed how G deals with money, and it is something that I am having real trouble getting used to, as it is so different from my approach. The bottom line is she does not support herself financially. It turns out that her parents send her rent money every month. They pay for all her trips back East. The pay for all her medical bills, they pay for her vacations and major purchases, they fund her IRA, and I suspect the cover lots of her other expenses. Her dad has a lot of money according to her, and she welcomes his generosity, as she calls it. I cannot fundamentally fault her for having a generous father, but it really bothers me to see a 40 yo woman who basically needs her parents to support her lifestyle. My concern is that G has gotten used to the lifestyle of living beyond her means, which is why she has no problem going to a $100/couple restaurant, buying expensive things without shopping around or looking for a sale, expecting to hire help to do all chores around the house, etc. And I am afraid that if she were married, it would become her husband's duty to take over supporting this lifestyle.

The kicker was when she told me recently that in general, she does not want to work, and would hope to be able to stay home after marriage. That totally blew me away. I tried to picture how it would be if my spouse stayed home (not to raise kids, but to simply stay home), and I managed to accept the possibility of it working – but I would then expect my spouse to keep the house clean, fridge stocked, meals prepared, etc. And unfortunately, that is not G’s vision at all – her vision is to be able to sleep longer, stay current on all the TV shows, do more shopping, and be ready to go out to dinner when I get home. I know that I wouldn’t be able to live with that, as I would have trouble respecting her.

I think that is what it really comes down to – as I get to know G, I am having more and more trouble respecting her. I think she is a great lady, but I simply cannot get over the notion that there is something broken there – that a 40 yo woman should have some more independence, motivation, energy, and interests than she does. Somehow, it seems like she has never really left home, and that her parents are still protecting her as if she were a 20 yo, waiting for her man to come and rescue her. It makes me very sad for her, because I think she has so much potential – but I have been burned before hoping for someone to live up to their “potential”.

So, while we are still enjoying dating, I am more and more pessimistic about being able to be married to her. I know that I would want to accept my spouse "as-is" to be married to them, and I am having a very hard time accepting many things about G. I think that we should have a chat one of these days, to kind of see where we are – I suspect that she is thinking that since we are not discussing anything then everything must be fine, but that is not the case and I don’t want to mislead her. Unfortunately, there is always something on the horizon that “keeps” us from having deep and difficult discussions – a vacation, her birthday, family in town, etc. Of course I know that these are just excuses, and my plan is to try to have some chats in the next few days or weeks. Problem is, I don’t know what to say other than “Honey, I love being with you, but I don’t think I can see myself being married to you”. Ugh.

Well, there you have it, feel free to comment or even beat me up. Really, I am glad that I didn’t break up with her two months ago, as I feel that I have truly given this relationship a real try, and now I can say with comfort that I know how things with G would be, instead of projecting based on a few occasional incidents or events. It’s too bad that the same picture emerged in the end, but at least I learned a little more about what I need and want in a partner, and what I can’t live with.

AGG

WOW!! BRIGHT LIGHTS here AGG.

I guess I'm a little speechless myself right about now concerning the part about her parents supporting her and all she does.

I think you were wise to give it the extra time that you have.
In my world, it's always better in my heart and head to have the clarity of knowing what was what for sure.

Good luck with what's to come.

Karona

I won't beat you up. My parents help me out from time to time. Sometimes they are very generous indeed. But, I pay my mortgage and car and stuff.

The Practical arena is what really broke my marriage. Turns out, B and I were out of sync on Wavelegnth and a bit on Chemistry, but what I really couldn't live with was the day-to-day stuff. Unfortunately, people often don't get to find that out until they get married.

I hope your conversations go well.

Wow! It sounds like the parents have been paying her way until someone else comes along who will take over.

GG - this is worlds away from your parents helping you out from time to time.

Gotta say it AGG, she sounds like she's a pricess who has pretty much gotten what she wants in her life & not through personal hard work. My guess is past BFs have objected to her desire to not work after marriage. This one floors me.

Since she is looking for marriage & you know you don't want that with her it would be considerate of you to tell her soon.

Thanks for the replies, ladies. It's interesting that you all focused on the part about her parents supporting her - to me, that is part of the whole picture, but like everything else, if it was the ONLY part, it would be fine - it's really the whole combined picture that bothers me.

Just to clarify - G does have a full time and makes a reasonable living. Which is why I did not see any concerns here when we first started dating. The "surprises" were to find out that her parents pay her monthly rent, and that she would like to not work after marriage. The additional details about her parents sponsoring all her trips back East, making major purchases for her, etc, didn't help any.

She is not financially irresponsible, but I can also see that she has been conditioned to not worry about money. I do worry about money, and try to save whenever I can. So I can see how our styles would clash if we were married.

Just to clarify, GG - I have no problem with parents helping out their kids - my parents helped me buy out my ex's share of the house, for example. That is fine. What bothers me is that G's parents are not just "helping out" so she can make ends meet, they basically give her an allowance so that she can live a lifestyle she really cannot afford. So, she basically lives beyond her means, and that does bother me. Because I don't want to argue over money, but I wince every time I see her buy things without a second thought, even though someone else is paying for them. It's a very fundamental difference in day to day life and how decisions are made, and I think it would be an eternal struggle if we ever tried to combine households.

AGG

I think I didn't express myself clearly. I understand the financial end. I know it has to do with attitude as much as anything.

I also agree that the life habits like arising at noon is trouble waiting to happen. BTDT. I was actually as much focused on that.

I was also surprised she wanted to stay home when she doesn't appear to be the Martha Stewart type. Much to my own chagrin, I seem to be very ambitious in the MS department. Sewing, gardening, painting, decorating, cooking, entertaining, blah, blah, blah. Heck, I iron sheets. If I stayed home, I'd have a really huge job. LOL.

However, not eveyone is wired like I am. Many people would rather pay someone else to create their home for them. To each her own. Rambling. Sorry.

I'm sorry she's not a good permenant fit.

Yes, well said. I think that is the crux of it - not the money, but the attitude and lifestyle.


Yeah, and I truly thing I could have learned to accept that, if it were the ONLY thing. But like so many other things with G, I could get used to the individual differences, but as WHOLE, they scare me.


Well, that's the problem. I could possibly get used to the idea of my spouse staying home, IF she did something else, anything, to be a partner. Clean, cook, organize, take on something to make me proud. But, to anticipate that she would basically sleep more, watch more TV, relax more, and not do anything to make my life any easier, is a hard pill to swallow. She is not old or sick, why shouldn't I expect a spouse to be a full partner?


Well, I wouldn't mind paying someone else to create our home, IF I felt that G would do something else that was "useful". But I keep coming empty; for every thing I consider normal for people to do (grocery shop, cook, clean, organize, do errands, etc), her response is always "I am too tired, I'll get sweaty, I don't want to focus on this chore".

We are just so very different, it is really sad to see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG,

Maybe I am off base here, but why not try this...

Depending on your relationship with her Father, I think that a little talk with him is in order. Tell him that you can see your relationship with G maybe going to the next level. Start a conversation about how you are, concerning what you feel is a proper man's duty (financially), and go from there. Sort of explain mildly about how you feel that his "help" may be a little bit uncomfortable in your and G's relationship. Maybe...awww heck...you know the drift.

Basically, tell him that you feel that a family becomes their own entity. Occasional help is OK, but...you really want your family to stand on its own. That is your beliefs in life.

I think that maybe he can see where you are coming from, and can help you out there. The reason that she is not as independent as you would like is basically because there is no need for her to be. Parents fault just as well as hers.

Maybe, just maybe....she can adjust to live within her means. Really, if you look at it, she is living within her means. She just has "means" at her disposal that most of us don't. I don't think that I would chuck the relationship just yet, until I saw her in the position and see how she reacted then.

I really think that you need to try to enlist Mom and Dad's help and understanding before you make any major decisions.

Just my .02


HCII

but hcii, what AGG seems to be saying is that it's not just about the money, it' her 'lifestyle'.....she's used to being taken cared of, doesn't appear to have the desire to do much other than just hang out, and that would be ok, if that was compatible w/ how AGG lives his life and what he was looking for in a partner.....

AGG, is her Mom a stay-at-home mom/woman? A lady who "lunches"? If so, I'm thinking that that's all G really knows.

You sound much more a peace w/ things and I too believe you gave it a really fair chance. I admire your ability to piece it all together and truly "see" the forest....

I'm really sorry that it appears G is not THE ONE.....

HUGS!

AGG, that was really well-thought-out. Hmm...

The question I think I would be asking in this situation is: "What is this person doing to encourage and inspire and show me how to be a better person?"

There are women to whom I've been attracted. There are women whom I've greatly respected. There are women whom I've understand at a profound level - and who understood me back. There are women who have fit into all three categories.

But for me this is not enough. If our relationship is not such that we can each influence the other to be and become a greater person than we would otherwise be, then I'm going to keep looking.

In fact, in some ways I fear that being "comfortable" with each other is actually a temptation to complacency. I want someone who will keep pushing me, and who wants to keep being pushed. Not everyone's looking for that, I know. But I would be very concerned about getting involved with someone who is basically just looking for a nest.

It seems to me that the issue with G is not so much about whether she can adjust her lifestyle - or is even willing to, although those are extremely important considerations. No, it's a matter of goals, or of vision. It's a matter of values. Do you want both want the same things out of life? It does not appear so...

Wow, GdP. That's very profound.

Very good insight Gnome!

I'm trying to finish a book....."The Seven Levels Of Intimacy"

Through out, it talks about becoming the best version of yourself. And the one you're with, helping you become the best version of yourself.

Your response made me think about this book.

Karona

Yes, I like this. I like this ALOT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

*itty bitty threadjack* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How are you doing Karona?

hcii:


I understand what you are saying, hcii, and I don't see this as anyone's "fault" - it's just the way it is. So I certainly do not blame G for this, nor do I really blame her parents, as I am sure their intent is good. I do have to say that I know for sure that my goal as a parent is to raise kids who can stand on their own two feet, and from what I have seen, her parents unfortunately sabotaged that in all their kids.

Her dad apparently does have a lot of money, but G does not know how much. To be honest, if I knew that she had a trust with her name on it that would be enough to sustain us forever (e.g. if her last name was Hilton <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), I might be able to get used to this. But this is not the case - her dad has money, but he also has three daughters. There is nothing to say that he or his wife will not have a long illness at some point, or that one of G's sisters will need huge financial help, and that this lifestyle that G got used to could be wiped out in a heartbeat. It is just a very different outlook on money - I believe in spending what I need to, and saving the rest - G has been conditioned to spend what she wants, because there is always more.

I am not sure what a chat with her dad would accomplish - unless I said "sir, stop sending G money, I'll take over from here". But I have no intent or ability to sponsor her current spending habits, so I don't see how that would work. I don’t want to support my spouse as if she were a child. I saw a weird example of this when we vacationed back East with her family. Every day, her mom left them wads of cash to use for their daily activities and food. So one day they got up, and G and her sister looked at each other, and the sister said – “G, did mom leave us any money for today?”. I swear, it sounded like two 12 yo girls talking, not two women around 40 who have been employed for the past 18 years or so. There was something about this that really rubbed me the wrong way.

DW:

Yes, I think a lot of this comes from her family background. Her mom was a SAHM; but heck, she had three kids to raise. I have no problem with that. And she made her husband lunches and dinners every day, and kept the house clean. IOW, the classic Cleaver family. While that is not my family role model, I could see myself being OK with it.

But, it seems that G has picked up bits and pieces of that lifestyle - no work - but discarded the rest - taking care of the house, doing errands, etc. She wants to hire people to do all that. And I would have trouble respecting that. It just reeks of some handicap, which I don't think G has.

And really, I keep feeling that something went awry at some point in G’s life. She comes from a great family, I met her parents, they are both loving, caring, genuine people. They clearly gave her a good start in life, and they clearly love her – G was valedictorian in HS, got top grades in college, and has held jobs for many years and moved up to management. But I think something went south at some point – it’s as if G’s parents said to her – “don’t worry honey, we’ll take care of you until a man comes along, and then you'll be able to just relax”. Well, 20 years later, they still seem to be in that pattern – she does not cook, does not run a household, has never married or had kids, does not seem to be motivated to do much other than relax and sleep, and seems to live for the “future” with a husband. It seems surreal at times.

GDP:

That is exactly right, and that is the question I kept asking myself and coming up short in my answers.

I feel like I am always pushing G to "live" - get out of bed, get something accomplished, go for walk, get a hobby, anything. And I don't want to push someone like this. I want my partner to push me as much as I push her - nothing major, I am not one of those "live life to the fullest" nuts, but still, I want some semblance of living life. And I felt like G was constantly an anchor. I get frustrated that she sees it as an accomplishment that she caught up on Oprah episodes or gone through a stack of catalogs.

That is why I keep feeling that G is a great companion, someone to go on dates with and have nice conversations with, but she is nothing like the partner I want, someone who would help me grow and become a better person. I want my partner to be as motivated, energetic, and active as me, which is not all that active, but still, someone who will want to live life - and it's quite a handicap when you can't get out of bed until 11, and then need two hours to get "ready" for anything. Heck, by that time, I would be on my lunchbreak after having done a few activites. Instead, I sit around moping and waiting.

It seems very judgemental of me to think that way about her, because it's not like she is a bad or defective person - but yes, I do not feel that she wants to do the things I want to do in life, and that bothers me. I don’t want to push someone to do what I think is fairly “normal” stuff – first, she’ll eventually resent me, and second, it creates a parent/child relationship more than a partnership. And like you, GDP, I don't want to settle for a companion when I really want a partner.

So, now, I need to figure how and when to bring this up, given that we have not had a relationship talk in months, and she probably thinks that all she has to do is wait a couple of more motnhs, and we'll get engaged. Ugh.

AGG

OK then. (You shouldn't say this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)



I really cannot understand this.
No single issue is a 'dealbreaker', but 'as whole' (not dealbreaker either, at least not yet) is that "scare" you. You needed to put all 'trees' together to see you don't like so much the forest? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Three dimensions... I fully understand your concern about Practical one... yet you say that you are compatible in the Wavelength dimension... and I cannot see it... Not in the way I think it should exist in a R-to-be-M anyway...
(I admit I'm fed up with 'talk the talk but not walk the walk' and that might blur my vision... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Above some other things - to get married to stop working, although no kids, nor "MStewart at home", just to have enough time for herself... I would call it..... (OK, I counted to 10(0) and will self-censore myself here...)

However

IMO you know to say anything you want. (This is a compliment.)
If and when you want.
And you don't because...? Not ready to break up, fear of losing her, sadness things didn't work, resistance to go back to the beginning/searching for someone else, starting, againb, so much energy... or all of this together...

Not good reason to stay and you know this too... much worse not to tell her what's in your mind...

What I cannot also understand is... OK, I could be way off, but if you honestly tell her that NO WAY you can accept 'this and that' to be married at all... why wouldn't she change some things... Not that you change her, but she herself... for if she wants a M, M means the family, and the family means giving up quite things we deeply enjoyed in our 'singlehood'...

Or I just 'idealize' what love and family and desire to have it really mean nowadays... Or some/most/? people do this from other reasons too...


What would be your advice to someone who wrote this?
And what for all of this?
After nine months...

No worries, I can take it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.



Ok, what don't you understand? I am saying that I see a lot of differences in our lifestyles - any ONE of them I could probably live with, but all together make for a situation that I doubt I'd be happy with. Pick any one issue - if the only problem was the sleeping in, but everything else were perfect, I'd probably be fine. If the only problem were her spending habits, but everything else was perfect, I'd probably be fine. Etc. Instead, I see that I am constantly tripping up over all these individual issues, and I am tired of tripping. I feel like at every turn, at every interaction, there is a difference. Not a dealbreaker in and of itself, but enough to annoy me. So, put them all together, and I've got a life of annoyances. I know you know what I am saying, B2M <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


Yeah, IKWYM. I am using the Wavelength dimension the way it was defined in the book - not that you have the same routines and goals as your partner, but that you have the same reactions to the world around you. So you laugh at same things, view world events the same way, etc - sort of like with your best same-sex friend. In general, G and I are compatible in the Wavelength dimension.


That kinda straddles the Practical and Wavelength dimensions, I agree. It's mostly Practical (your daily routine), but it does touch upon the Wavelength as well ("I don't get how anyone could live a life like this"). Also, realize that if G were posting here, she wouldn't say her goals would be to stay home and have time for herself - she would definitely say that she would plan to run the household (not DO most things, but at least arrange for them to get done). But, I don't see any evidence that she has the motivation, energy, and ability to do so - after 9 months of dating, her kitchen countertops are still as cluttered with magazine stacks as they were the day we met, when she said it's her top priority to unclutter them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


Yes and no. All the things you say are reasons, but they are not the only reasons. I happen to adore G, as she is one the sweetest, most loving, caring, honest, genuine, and selfless women I ever dated. And yes, I am very attracted to her and I love being with her. So, the feelings are very much still there, and it is not as much the fear of being alone as it is those feeling that have made me decide to give this relationship every opportunity to work.


First, I did tell her that I wanted to break up with her back in June. For these very reasons. So this should not be a total surprise for her. She said she'd change, and I wanted to give her the opportunity to do so. What did I have to lose? And I am glad that I gave it more time - things have really become more clear for me with time.


Beats me. When I tried to break up with her in June, she begged me to give her a chance to change herself, she said she knew that she has developed a lifestyle incompatible with a partnership, and that she wanted to grow and change, including having a normal uncluttered household, a more normal schedule, and reducing the monthly visits back East. I had low expectations, but I wanted to give her the opportunity. None of it worked, as expected. She is the same as she was. Why, you ask? I dunno. I have never met a person who seems to be so out-of-norm on so many things that I (and everyone I know) take for granted. I don't know why she can't live the "normal" lifestyle, but I guess that 20 years of conditioning is hard to undo. Then again, she said that she only started the visits back East and the clutter buildup in the past two years, so who knows what's up.


I am not understanding the last part, could you clarify?

AGG

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I do more then you think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


... you ever dated... Huh, AGG...

I see some contradictions here, btw...


I understand (and knew this too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) and of course you are right to wait and see...


I wonder if you were quite clear though...


You give excellent advice to people here... for you can 'see' more if watching 'from outside'...
When I don't know what and how to do something, it helps me to read my own words as someone else wrote them, 'without emotions' that give me 'indistinct picture' as much as I usually think I can see it without them influencing me...


PS: (IMHO) I think you are not ready yet, to decide either way... looks like it's June again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...
And that's another reason to tell her honestly all of this, for time is passing so quickly and it is not on her side... (neither yours, but that's your choice you have all rights to make for yourself)...

Hi DW...

I won't take up too much space, sorry AGG.

My plate has been full with home things.
I really seem to be content being me these days. Not worried about meeting anyone or dating.
I've read the board, but I just feel out of the loop these days.

Hope all is well for you DW!
Be the best version of yourself!

K!

You are losing me, B2M... what is the "huh" for?


OK, I'm all ears <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Oh, I was smart enough to not say much, and to let HER do the talking of what she wanted to change. And she was quite clear: "clear up my clutter, shift my schedule to be like most people, not go back to see my extended family as often". Yes, I know we can punch holes in each one ("what is 'normal'?", "how 'often' is 'not as often'?", etc), but it was quite clear to me and her what she meant. Regardless, it is not that she hasn't made the changes she promised, it's more that I don't think she is the kind of person I would be happy being married to and sharing my life fully with - and it is not a matter of one or two small changes.


You are right. Unlike some of my previous relationships, I am still enjoying my interactions with G. So there is little in this current situation that bothers me - it mostly bothers me when I picture us being married and living together day after day - otherwise, I can ignore a lot of it. So, the problem is, in the present, I like seeing and dating G - but I also have little hope for any future beyond dating. If that is all she wanted too, we might be fine, but I know she wants marriage. So yes, this is hard to break off, because in a way it would be ending something not because it is bad, but because it is not going to go to where she wants it to go, which does not feel right.

But, you are right, I need to tell her my thoughts and feelings, and then we can see what to do with it all.

AGG

What I meant is - did you tell her you could not get married if all of that remain the same... ('wrap' it in any different words to sound more proper and nicer if you need, but that's the essence of "being clear" here..)


That's what you said too. Maybe she changed her mind too, and will settle for 'companionship' just not to lose you and special moments with you.


Is she=you (too)?

PS:

And this has nothing to do with your gf, OK?

'Huh' is for sad other things don't go together with these ones.

'Contradictions'... OK, what do 'caring, genuine, and selfless' really mean - for you? (In daily life and in the long run, for we speak here about you and 'in the long run', right)?

OK, gotcha now. Yes, I did tell her that I could not be married to someone with those qualities. Now, I know that we all choose to hear what we want to, so I have no way of knowing that she heard what I said, but given that I actually tried to break up with her over this, it's hard to imagine that she did not appreciate the seriousness of my comments. And she did say that she wants to make those changes, so she acknowledged my concerns - unfortunately, nothing changed.


It's possible. If that is the case, we will both have to figure out if we want to do that, or if one (or both) of us will want to go and search for someone who can be marriage material.

AGG

AGG,
Not much time but wanted to comment a little....

I think the longer you're with the wrong person the harder it is going to be to break up with them and the more painful in the end. It will also make the chances a lot higher of ending up marrying the wrong person in the end. I also think that as long as G is a part of your life, your chances of meeting someone more compatible is 0 to 1%.

Just some food for thought for ya. Good luck to you

Anna

AGG:

In your initial post, it seemed like you were apologizing for not liking some fundamental parts of her personality. There's not to apologize for--you've been through the whole marriage/divorce thing before (I'm assuming) so why not go with your gut? As far as I'm concerned she's ALL wrong for you!

I'm not going to comment on her parent's funneling money to her or her apparent laziness...but I will say that if these things are bothering you NOW, how will you feel when you're married to her and you HAVE to make this relationship work AT ALL COSTS? You're going to kick yourself because you KNEW she was like this...

There's wrong with her as a person, but you have a snowball's chance in ****** at changing her at 40 years old. I think the idea of speaking to her parents is laughable, too...

I have read the post and your G is being taken care of by her parents. Sounds like you want someone who is self initiated and assumes responsibility. To have a playmate is not a loving relationship.

I have met a wonderful man after 4 years after my divorce. He too is divorced for a long time and we just clicked. He is so motivated and starting his own business and I too am going to start my own business. I work hard...finishing the house that the ex never finished about 55% unfinished. Neighbors do compliment me on the outside and the yard...getting rid of the piles of dirt and junk laying around the yard. I am trimming the trees (many trees) and having some taken down to open the yard more. I have had the house stain/painted and a new roof...house is only 15 years old and the ex never had more than 1 coat of stain/paint on the T11 wood. So much of the trim needed replacing because of dryrot. With my oldest sons advice I had a beautiful big detached garage built and I have been building the shelves myself and they are beautiful and practical.

I take care of most everything here...the new boyfriend has helped me out and he is so handy and he helps senior citizens with fixing things in their homes for a senior citizen price. He knows a lot about repairs and was a big time engineer and finally gave up that ladder job. He was at the top and wanted to get down to the basics and work with his hands. He smiles all the time and conversation with him just flows.

I believe you have seen what your life would be like with this G and it is not compatible with your life style. When one is so motivated and one is not, there is great disharmony. HOw is conversation with the two of you. She is well educated and intelligent. But what do you two talk about...just wondering. Conversation is so important in a relationship.

I too believe that if you were to talk to her parents...nothing would change. They have set the pattern with all their children and someone coming in on the sidelines is not going to change anything.

This is hard...in the long run you need to look at your future and what you want in your future. How you want to live and how to conduct yourself. Seems you 2 are not close to the center...seems you 2 are more towards the end of the stick.

Prayers and Blessings.....to you.

Basic incompatibility issues that center around items like personal energy levels & financial lifestyles NEVER resolve themselves to a good place.

Abort!!!!

You're denying yourself the opportunity for a better life every single day you now spend with her. And, you're doing the same thing to her, denying her the life she's hoping for. Food for thought.

Anna:

Hi Anna <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... Of course, you are right, and I am well aware that, as I always say to others, "for every day you are spending with Ms. Wrong, you are spending a day preventing the possibility of meeting Ms. Right". I am in no hurry to move on and start looking again, but yes, I don't want to continue a relationship that has essentially no chance of working longterm.

^aeri^:


Thanks for your thoughts, aeri. You bet, I am not gonna make the mistake of marrying a person when I see so many red flags. I was hoping to either get used to her lifestyle or to find some workaround around the issues, but I never ever not once lost sight of them. FWIW, this is the one thingswith which I am very happy with myself in this relationship - despite being totally smitten by her from the outset, I was always able to keep my eyes open and not miss anything.

Loveinhim:


Like in most new relationships, conversation was awesome. We talked for hours, and always seemed to "get" each other. I think the ability is still there, but we no longer do that, for one clear reason - there is a minefield out there that we are both aware of. We have graduated to talking about simple stuff, like "when are you coming down?", and avoiding the heavier stuff, like "what are your plans for the future?", "what do you think of our relationship?", etc. And of course, this is a red flag in and of itself. I am well aware of that.


Yup, you are right. Thanks for your thoughts, Loveinhim.


HF:


I agree.


I know, HF, you are right. I do think that she deserves someone who will be totally happy with her, and I would not want to deny her that.

AGG

So true... and a mistake so easy to repeat...

Eh, I dunno if I agree with all of this. Sure, the longer the relationship, the more painful the breakup. Agreed.

Yet, it is a given that it takes time to decide if a relationship is working or not - so unless we see real dealbreakers from the outset, it usually takes time to decide. So yes, it makes the breakup a bit more painful than a "breakup" after three or four dates, but then again, that is all part of dating - getting a clear picture of compatibility, or lack thereof.

I also don't think that a long dating relationship increases the chances of marrying the wrong person. I'd say just the opposite. For me personally, my mistake was getting engaged to my ex after knowing her for only a couple of months. I think most failed marriages are traced to dating relationships that are too short, rather than too long. It's hard to find a substitute for time together in order to get to know a person. Yes, the breakup is bound to be more painful, but less so than a quick marriage followed by a divorce.

AGG

Hey AGG,

I see where both are extremes and either extreme can be seen as bad.

Your first mistake was the opposite of mine, I watch your relationship unfold with G and that is more how my first mistake went.

I do agree that you need to really get to know someone to know for sure, but just how many dates do you really need? I think your gut knew long ago G wasn't for you, yet the physical chemistry and the fun you were having, led you to thinking possibly you need to continue and make sure. I am not saying that is wrong as I do think it helps leaving a relationship with "no regrets", but at the same time, just how many dates do you really need to know when it's not the right person?

You may not think so, but I think the more time you spend with the wrong person, the more chances you will be just way too close to her, clouded by the things you love about her, feeling such a part of her and her a part of you that you will find it very hard to go back to living life without "the wrong person".

Anna

Exactly!

I think the most important thing is do we and how much really know OURSELVES.
Apparently, we just think we know ourselves... we accept 'basket of wrong fruits' just if there is one or two SO GOOD ones in it. And although we know that those one or two will be 'chocked' by the rest from the basket in some time...
I.e. after my M and D, I THINK I know what I need and will run away at the first sign that I cannot have IT with someone.
But I also know that no experience and knowledge can get rid of that greed in us to have that part we need so much, so much we neglect all else... And it is hard. And we find different names and excuses for chosing "to wait and see"...
And that scares me.

I am sure that in most of cases all of us KNEW all shortcomings of our R before M, we just lost it in having first the physical chemistry, then fun, then... HABIT too... After TOO much time we had spent together (i.e. too much 'waiting to see'), we got USED TO all things (that come as a boomerang later on). After a while, we "invested" so much, went so far, built 'history', therefore harder to go back/out of it.

What is a reasonable time to see, how many dates?
Find the middle between 'run away right away' and 'wait and see more, and hope for change'.
We didn't find it before our marriages obviously (although there is no guarantee for this either)... and did we really learn how to find it or just tricking ourselves that we now know what we are doing - time will tell... for all of us...

Uh, I dunno, 2? 3? Is this a trick question Anna? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Seriously, you know the answer as well as I do - it takes whatever it takes to get to know a person. Certainly in the negative, it may take only one date - i.e. if I see something that is a dealbreaker for me (e.g. she goes home with another guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />), there is no need for date #2. But, in the positive, it may take 20, 50, 100 dates or more before you know what to make of compatibility.

I did not see any red flags with G for at least a month, until we moved from simple "dates" to spending more time together, seeing her place, etc. Even then, at that time, they were individual trees that were not (to me) automatic dealbreakers. So it took time to put together the forest. Anyway, I don't think it's a matter of counting "Dates". If it only takes a few dates, why are you still dating J, instead of breaking up or getting married?


It's a bit more than just the chemistry and fun we were having - there were many other good things about her that I loved. So it was a matter of taking in the WHOLE picture, and not running off at first or second sign of trouble.

AGG

Then I suspect you will always be running away, B2M. My experience is that there is no one who is baggage-free out there, and the key is to figure out what baggage you can live with and what baggage you cannot live with.

FWIW, I thought I had seen every possible dysfunction out there in my dating, and I was initially pleased to see that G was free from all of those (mental illness, dysfunctional family, bankruptcies, dishonesty, etc etc). So, none of my standard red flags were anywhere to be seen.

With time, I started seeing all of her patterns that caused me concern, but because I have never experienced life with someone who has a very different sleep pattern than me, or energy level than me, etc, I did not know how it would affect my daily life. So, I did not consider those to be automatic dealbreakers, given how much good stuff there was.

It took time to see how those would affect me, and now I know. And if I see another person who is so far away from me, I'd know to stay away. But, until you try it, you don't know.

You speak of rotten fruit in the basket, and it is a nice example - but I suspect you will not find a person in their 30's or 40's who does not have at least some questionable fruits in their basket - and if your approach is to chock the whole basket if there are some rotten fruit in there, well, you will need to either get very lucky, or you'll be spending lots of time at the Farmer's markets looking for that perfect basket. The key to successful relationships, IMO, is not to look for the perfect basket, but for one where the important fruit are not rotten, even though some other ones might be.

While hindsight is 20/20, it takes time to decide what we can live with and what we can't (again, assuming that there are no automatic dealbreakers to be seen). This is why I don't buy these arguments that "you should have known after a few dates". I am still quite convinced that I did the right thing by giving this relationship the time and effort that I did - it does not leave me with a bunch of "what ifs"...

AGG

Oh, heavens, I knew after two dates that B was the one for me. I married him. The H*LL broke loose.

I'm for a reasonable courtship. A year to 18 months to date. Six to 12 months to be engaged. I think the biggest danger in dating more than 2 years is the two people may be interpretting the relationship and its future in very different ways.

I got you beat... I knew on my first date that my ex was "the one"...

AGG

You just didn't understand me...

What I said - you/we should know ourselves to be able to figure out what we can live with or not at all.

We know no one is baggage free, and we all (should!) know what is exactly our own baggage.

Btw, I would be glad to spend the rest of my life running away Vs. accepting things that would make me unhappy and miserable living with someone...
And would be more glad not to run at all, my legs are getting tired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


So, what's happening now that 'now you know'?


You really didn't understand me...

It depends on what is rotten for ME, i.e. can I live with or not.

Some would accept a drunken. Or a cheater. Or a lazy one. Or (any kind of) abuser. Or (too) selfish. And similar. And "try to work it out".
I would not, would run away, right away, no waiting to 'see', no waiting for changes, not hoping.

AGG, I didn't think of 'small things', like I like yellow he likes blue and that makes a big difference. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Nor 'God, I'm running away for he's tired after the work and wants to rest and that means he'll turn into a couch potato'.
Or similar ridiculous things that you think I meant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I thought of things that, in the long run, would not work for 'us'.


And I never said anything opposite of this.

My 'view's angle' was just different.
You always take the basket as is, bad fruits included, some rotten as well and it's ok so far you can clean it a bit and still use it for a good pie.
And you do NOT take the basket if you have a few/many good apples and many worms on them got out from other fruits.
And we know that only one big worm can make 'miracles'.
Well... some people at this place would take it too, and go fishing.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with this. And I know myself well enough to know what I can and cannot live with. What I am disagreeing with is that the compatibility evaluation can be completed in a matter of a few dates. If there are red flags and dealbreakers, then yes. But otherwise, it takes time.


I plan to have a talk about it with her. Right now she has family in town, so this won't happen for a week or so.


Yes, those are the easy red flags - a drunk, a cheater, unemployed, mentally ill. Those are dealbreakers, at least for me. I did not see any of these issues with G. What I saw, with time, is that our lifestyles are different. Too different for me to want to entangle our lives together. But not as obvious as you make it sound. Perhpas next time I meet someone who seems to be great, but see some clutter in her house, I'd run away, I dunno. Or if I see that she sleeps an hour or two more than me... But in reality, no one will be EXACTLY like me (phew), so I would want to give people the benefit of the doubt and see.. And no, it's not rationalizing and hoping, it's trying to put together the whole picture instead running off at the first "difference".


I know that. And I maintain that the things that "in the longrun would not work for 'us'" take time to identify, process, and act upon.

I don't think we are disagreeing on the principle, B2M, are we? In the end, I have no plans to accept someone with whom I do not see a happy future, just like you. The thing we are discussing here is at which point does one decide that they know the other person enough to decide if there is a future or not. You seem to believe that I should have acted earlier, and that is fine. In the end, though, the result is the same. Except that I feel that I can walk aways without "what ifs". Also, as you said so well, it is often much easier to assess a situation from the outside than when you are involved in it day to day, right?

AGG

You think so or you just do know?
I.e. if you do know, why do you waited to see if you can accept it (in the long run) or not?
And my feeling is that you still don't know what really you should do...

Please don't take it personal, for tt is not just you, it's that all of us have (and might have) the same issue...


It takes time only if some things are not so obvious 'I cannot live with'. And for some of them it does take more time to discover.
But the more you define what you cannot live with the less time you need to be aware of it.


Of course


No, we do not.


Not so. YOU needed that time and you are right to take it.
Just that you should now know. (Me looking from outside.)
To accept it or leave it. (I don't see the third option, do you?)


It depends.
What Anna mentioned and I agree with her, (time), the result is not the same if you chose to leave Vs. to stay but from wrong reasons.


It depends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
... on writing ability of the autor among other things and reading ability of a reader <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AGG.. I will add something...

I needed and took much more time than you did, 'to see' if I 'can live with' some of my XH's issuses/our differences.
And that time I spent "waiting/working it out" 'buried me' and I stayed... And I don't want you to do the same (If it's possible you do)
So, that's just 'my baggage' talking now to you about this...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Because someone sleeping longer than me is NOT automatically something I can't live with... Because someone who has a messier house than I do is NOT automatically something I can't live with.. etc etc. It's only after we get a chance to see all of these differences and see how they would impact a life together can we make the decision. Like I said, the obvious dealbreakers are easy, the hard ones are those that take time to assess and look at as part of the whole picture. You can't get around that, unless you are extremely instinctive, which I am not. I need time to collect and process data. Once I have done that, I can make a decision on whether the compatibility is there or not.


Exactly right. Which is why the next time I meet someone with these traits, I'd have a more instinctive reaction to them, just like if I meet someone with the other traits I've experienced earlier. But, having never met someone who was messy, inactive, etc, before, it took me time to discover how that would affect me.


Of course there is a third option, I just don't like it - the option to maintain status quo, i.e. neither "take it" (marriage) nor "leave it" (breakup). But like I said, I don't like the third option.

AGG

Thanks for sharing that, B2M, you are usually fairly mysterious about yourself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that I would be doing the same thing (and making the same mistake) if I kept on dating G and "hoping" that things would work out. I know they won't, and so I won't do that.

The center of my debate on this thread was whether this all should have been obvious to me earlier - I believe that it shouldn't have. Sure, the signs were there, but it still takes time (at least for me) to put all the pieces together. Yup, I guess I am slow...

AGG

Valid point.


And that doesn't mean you won't chose it.
Moreover, it looks you will, and that's why I (I guess from the same reasons Anna too?) talked about 'the more time...')

Think so?
ooo, I am very open, just ask and you'd see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Really, I don't have a bf, nor a lover <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> (and for the time being this hurts me more <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and what to talk here about myself?

You are right. I know it's easy to maintain the status quo - but we both want more than the status quo, and that ain't gonna happen. So, yes, we will have the chat sometime soon.

AGG

Oh, geez, lots of things... How long have you been married, how long divorced, relationships since divorce, are you looking for a partner, if not - why not? Ya know, all the stuff we like to know about other posters <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Well, I didn't just hope, it was a mix of many things, too weak to break up too included...


AGG, acceptance is OK too, if the value of what you are getting does not hurt you too much when paying the cost of it...
Can't we say that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


OK, I am not running away now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> just going home and I could answer some time later on.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This would be nice, wouldn't it? But do we know ourselves that well? One of my biggest concerns in the area of potential relationships is whether my past experiences will limit my ability to recognize what is good or appropriate for me. I believe that I know myself very well indeed. But I fear that this may be as much of a trap as it is an asset.

As AGG said, "The thing we are discussing here is at which point does one decide that they know the other person enough to decide if there is a future or not." I suspect that a lot of us are far too quick to decide this. We wait for what we think we want. Or we keep getting into relationships which are similar to the ones which didn't work for us before.

The familiar is less disturbing to us even when it is fraught with pain and unhappiness. It takes an effort of will to try to remain open to new ways of seeing things, particularly as we grow older.

And yet hopefully the maturity which comes with age if we let it can help us to learn better from new experiences and to make wise choices despite the pain they may bring. We get sucked into relationship-as-a-habit only if we allow ourselves to do so.

As always, very well put GDP. I do try to move from my earlier dating approach of hurrying up and making a decision, to a hopefully more evolved approach of giving each relationship a chance to blossom, and sink or swim on its own merits, rather than on some preconceived notions I might have had. I think that this is the approach that allows me to grow more, rather than the one of "you are not what I had in mind, see you later".

Of course, as I stated, this does not mean that I would try to grow in a relationship that clearly had the dealbreakers of addictions, dishonesty, and illness. But, I am trying to be more flexible in accommodating differences, until and unless they eventually prove to be too severe. I think that as we grow older, we all become more set in our ways, and will need to be more accommodating with the differences between ourselves and our partners. The challenge is to assess which differences can be accommodated, and which cannot.

In the end, I think that in this relationship, I learned a lot and have grown as a person. And that is not a bad thing.

AGG

AGG,

On your response to how many dates, of course there's no specific number, but I think that in reality when you see so many differences and you don't see a future and you are wanting to make a future with someone, then at some point you gotta throw the towel in.

I see your post over the months and perhaps I am mis-reading them but it's almost like you continue to make excuses, like eating candy, you know you need to stop before you gain 40 pounds but you just love it way too much to stop so you think up excuses to continue eating it.

I don't think anyone should jump into marriage quickly anymore than someone should date the wrong person for an extended amount of time.

Of course as you said, G has no big deal breakers, but just because a person isn't a killer, drunk or cheater does not mean that they are right for you or that you should endlessly date them until they show signs of being a killer, drunk or cheat.

Sometimes it's not that people have a major deal breaker, it's like you said before, they have enough differences that it just would make it too miserable for both people later on down the road.


There's a healthy balance in dating and giving it enough time to see if it's a good match. Once you find a match that has more potential than flaws then I think it's time to move to the next step of the relationship to watch it bloom or just see what happens, not jump into marriage by any means, but go slowly build the relationship and see what happens.

Maybe I'm wrong but it sure seems like your relationship with G has more flaws than potential, yet you seem to be letting it bloom anyway.

Well, gotta run.

Anna

It hasn't appeared that way to me. I think AGG has shared far more positive qualities about G than faults.

I think that's precisely what AGG has done, but every blooming relationship won't lead to marriage.

I'm sorry this relationship isn't going to work out for you, AGG. I personally think respect is the biggest factor in love and being able to build a life with someone.

Anna, I think that we are in vehement agreement here, which is why I am having trouble figuring out what you and B2M are trying to tell me that I am doing wrong (or did) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

The only thing I can see us have a disagreement on is whether or not I should have broken up with G a couple of months ago instead of giving it this extra time. Yet your argument seems to go to the extreme, when you say this:


Why was my dating endless? G and I had tons of good things going for us; perhaps I didn't post them all here, but believe me, after having seen what I have seen out there, she really stood out (in wonderful ways). And so it makes sense (to me) that I wanted to give it time and see if I could get used to her idiosynchracies. As it turned out, I couldn't, but I think it's a far cry from "dating someone endlessly until they show signs of being a drunk" etc.


Well of course, that is how I see it now. Otherwise I would not be posting what I am posting, that I don't see us as being compatible. But it is not to say that there was never any potential and I just hung in there for giggles. That would be a misstatement.


I don't understand - I just got done posting that I finally decided that the relationship is not destined to go further, so why are you saying that I am letting it bloom anyway?

Put another way (I don't know how many more ways I can put it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />): 9 months ago I met a girl who seemed wonderful in many many important ways, we really hit it off. A couple of months later, as we got to know each other more, I started seeing some things that concerned me, but because we were so in tune in other ways, I wanted to give it more time and see if I could get used to the differences (rather than if she could change). A few months later, as time went on and I spent more time with her, I have reached the conclusion that the differences are too large for us to be a couple. So I decided to break it off. How does this translate into the story of endless dating despite it being obvious that I am dating a killer, drunk, etc? I just don't get it, Anna. It's not like I have dated G for years and years only to break up with her, something that I think is actually rather common.

AGG

Thanks, AFS. I sure do believe that G has more great qualities than negative ones; unfortunately, for me, the negatives outweigh the positives - but it is a far cry from saying that G has more negative qualities than positive ones - it's more a matter of compatibility with me, which, unfortunately, is not what it needs to be. But I am sure that she would be a wonderful partner for someone else who is wired more like she is.


I agree, and I also can't be in a relationship where I can't respect my partner's lifestyle, choices, and priorities.

AGG

Ahhh, yes, the old "gotta run home" excuse, eh??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AGG

AGG,

I think I posted to you about this woman some time ago.You have been very "methodical" about giving this relationship a try and I think that is great.You've tried to work with,maybe overlook and handle the issues you had with her.That's commendable in this disposable world we live in.I hear that you tried.

And as I read,I too would have problems with the relationship,as you describe it(trying to picture myself being you).Out of curiosity,does G work late? Is that why she sleeps so late in the AM? And getting ready? What is it that she does? When I was in my 20's,I distinctly remember taking a solid hour just to do my hair,get my make-up "just right" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />,make sure my outfit was right for the day,go back and touch up my hair,etc,etc.It's funny but now I don't care as much and I am out the door in 20 minutes tops,if need be.And the funny thing is I look just as fine as I did taking so much time.lol I also have made an effort to not look 100% "done" each and every day.I don't want to to pass that "requirement" on to my daughters.I go out without make up lots of times.I can't imagine what takes G so long.Maybe you mentioned it before?

I also work very late a couple nights a week but am still up and around by 7am to get all my kids off to school.I couldn't stand wasting the day away.That would drive me nuts too,waiting around for sleeping beauty to arise.jmho

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. This is certainly how I see it too!


Yes, she does have her work hours shifted (about 12-8), but not by necessity, but by choice. IOW, she does not sleep in late because she has to work late, she works late because she wants to sleep in late (and then take 2 hours to get ready). Does that make sense? All her coworkers go home by 5 or so, so this is definitely her little idiosynchracy.


AB, this is what I have been busting my head trying to understand - what can a person do for two hours to get ready? I don't mean get ready for a wedding, but to get ready to spend a Saturday... And I never did figure it out. I think she has a huge littany of products she feels she needs to apply to her hair, body, etc - not as much makeup, as all sorts of anti-aging creams and stuff. I counted close to 100 bottles of "stuff" in her bathroom. It's sad, because she is so pretty and lovely, she can fall out of bed and look like a million bucks - but instead, she feels the need to spend all that time prettying up - to the point of driving away the guy who loves her as she is. How ironic.

In the end, I had to admit that I cannot understand this preoccupation with looks, hair (she spends 5 hours at the hair salon every couple of months), the regular visits to nutritionists, dermatologists, etc etc. It's too Hollywoody for me, even though she seems so down to earth in some ways. But I cannot change her, and perhaps someone else will love those traits in her.


Yup. Then again, you are a parent, and I think we learn a lot once we become parents (no slam against any non-parent, just my observation). And sadly, that is also how I started viewing it as we (me and kids) were hanging around for 5 hours waiting for her to "make an appearance" every morning, er, afternoon. So much for respect.

AGG

Hehehe
(I never give my word if I cannot keep it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)

Btw, had a nice day at work... plenty time for the web. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Dating almost 4 years, M 3, D 2,5, no R after D, i.e. died in that part after D, not looking, but there are couple of months I feel some signs of life, reliving a woman in me and expecting her full reincarnation soon, lost in where to start to look for that missing part in my life, above all how to find the time for it...

Anything else, Sir? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It looks Anna and I see 'your case' things the same/similar way...

And while I can understand why you didn't get what I wrote, Anna did it so good (I agree again with her last post), yet you didn't get her either.
Are you sure you've read it all at all? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Not so...
It still lasts, it looks it will continue to last, and it looks quite the same as you wrote 2-3 months ago...
(I also see some reasons to continue as just excuses to continue 'eating candy'...)


I don't know if Anna feels the same, but for me it doesn't look you are ready (for any 'final decision') yet, and after talking to your gf I 'expect' some new reasons for giving it some more time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

JMHO

GDP,

Yes, it would be...
I think I know myself very very well, but I have no illusions that I know all nor that I couldn't surprise myself by doing something I now say 'never'...


How could that be?


Ooo, don't fear... accept it... for it IS a trap too...

Ah, so you are dating vicariously through us, eh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />? No wonder you think that you would instantly see red flags and know how to run away from them, I used to think that I could do it too...I guess I found that people (and relationships) are much more complex than I ever thought, agh.

Well, I hope you soon find the time (and energy) to start dating again; I promise to be nice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Sure, I get what you and Anna wrote, I just don't agree with it. At least not with the part that I have been dating G endlessly.


Shrug. Like I said, it took me until just the last couple of weeks to put together the forest; sorry if it wasn't quick enough for your tastes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I do agree that I am having trouble finding the opportunity to have a chat with G. Not to make excuses, but we just got back from a vacation with me and my kids (not the best time to break up), then I focused on her 40th B-day (not the best time to break up), and now her sister is in town (not the best time to break up). I know, you'll say I am rationalizing, and to some extent I am, but I also don't feel that anything earth shattering has happened that I must have an instant breakup with G. I need to have the talk with her, I know that, but I also feel it can wait for a few days.


That's a different issue. I am not saying that I expect the breakup to be easy, and although I want to avoid this, it is possible that it will drag out over several conversations, and not be the clean break that I'd prefer to have. Still, it is a different issue from "dating endlessly before making a decision".

AGG

Giving it some time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Hope as nice as I am? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

According to my schedule at work, time for my son, an exam in two months, among other 'duties' for my parents and friends... you will have to wait some longer time... to be nice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I have to run now; have whole five hours before my alarm clock hits my dreams. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

To be con't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Exactly, thanks for saving my typing fingers B2M!


EXACTLY AGAIN! You made this sooo easy for me. I will go get in my shower a few minutes earlier now that I see you did all the work for me B2M. Thanks again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anna

You bet, I promise!

AGG

As I said before, there are two issues/points here. One is, have I waited tool long to "decide" about our compatibility, the whole "endless dating" line. The other is, now that I know how I see our compatibility, will it be easy for me to breakup with G.

I'll address the second one first. Yes, I agree with the skepticism, because I know how hard it is for me to break up with someone whom I like very much in the present, but just don't see a future with them. So it feels a little like cutting off my nose to spite my face. I know it needs to be done, and I will do it, but I am not making any promises about the timing.

The other issue is the one I largely do not accept; the argument of "endless dating". As we all know, there are several stages to dating: Infatuation, Uncertainty, Negotiation, and, if we get there, Acceptance. Now, if I take the argument that "you should have ran away as soon as you saw the signs", I would have been bolting during Uncertainty, which all books say NOT to do. They say Uncertainty is normal, and it is important to get through it, try Negotiation, and try to get to Acceptance. And that is what I did. I have no regrets for not bailing out during Uncertainty.

Now, if the red flags were things like addictions, that would be a different story. But there weren't such issues, they were issues of compatibility, which certainly gave me pause, but were not grounds for jumping out. So, like I said, I still believe I did the right thing by not breaking up right away.

I should point out that there are lots of people who DO in fact do endless dating; those in long distance relationships, those who say they won't introduce their kids to their partner, and those who simply want to "go slow"; as a result, these people see each other once a week or less, in very confined and limited interactions. They do not truly entangle their lives in any way, they simply "date". And they can do this for years, and it will be "great". This, to me, is endless dating. If I had done this with G, I would probably still be on cloud 9 - as I said, she is great to go on fun dates with. Yet we deliberately decided to not do that, but to try to see each other enough to see how compatible our lives together would be. And we did that, and we found out. But there is no endless dating here, sorry to say.

I could also be one of those typical "guys" (I am thinking of Lexxxy's and GG's BFs, although I know there are many others) who basically date without being willing to be tied down to any discussion about the future. Heck, if I did that, I would have no need to break up with G - present is great, don't ask me about tomorrow.

These are the relationships that lead to the accusations of "commitment phobia". In reality, there is no phobia, there is simply no interest in a commitment, even though the dating is great. I am trying to take the higher ground and avoid doing this to G, though I think some would say "why are you obsessing about the future (SPOUSE HUNTING!), just enjoy the occasional interactions and see what happens. One day at a time!".

And before y'all say that it won't happen, we had a thread on this very topic a while back, and quite a few of you weighted in on the "one day at a time" side vs. the "spouse hunting" or trying to decide if a person could be a spouse to you someday. So I think I am actually going out of my way to do the right thing (IMO) and break off this relationship, even though it works very nicely for me "in the present", and I could ask "why am I worrying about the future if the present is good?".

AGG

You didn't even need to talk to your gf to get some new excuses, pardon, reasonings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


AGG,

All I wanted to say is - I don't want you to make mistake I did, and as many people did.

I exactly know where you are now. Been there. For some great things I had with him, although felt the rest wouldn't bring me happiness 'in the long run', I couldn't leave, finding excuses, making 'final decision' that one day I'll break up with him, but not now, a bit later on, then after hours/days having with him that great part of our R I would prolong and prolong the break up, and after 3 years I was changed, so far from outside world, couldn't imagine myself starting from the beginning, with unknown, 'known' made me feel 'safe', get used to all bad sides, felt them known-secure with... Etc.

And if you compare my 4 yrs vs. your 9 mths... just keep thinking that way you talk now and soon it'll be 4 yrs... Well, if you are not rushed by your gf to get M sooner of course.

However, and again, I just don't want you to make mistake I did.

Well, even if you do, we know what's bad M, resentment and frustrations, we know what's D, and we know we can be happy after that again too.

Also, there is always that smaller % for this in statistics that wins at the end (if M), and there is always a hope that you are in that smaller %.

Got this one too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Point well taken. Thanks, B2M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

You are very welcome, a good guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

GG,

On your two points/issues…

Point 1. Whether you did or didn't date G too long is a very minor point in my opinion as it's water under the bridge, and an experience either way. I don’t even think you’ll know this answer for a long time.

Point 2. I think your point seems a little different from mine. Yours is, "Now that you know, will it be easy to break up with G or not?" Mine is “This post seems very close to ones before and it still hints of “At first I really did see why we aren’t compatible but as the clock ticks down to the break up moment, “Give me excuses not to break up with G and I’ll throw in some really good points for her to help you all out.”

I just keep thinking G will probably help you with those. Every time you come up with reasons why your incompatible, G wants babies, messiness, doesn’t want a pre-nup, takes hours to get ready, loves to sleep in, not as kid friendly….G always seems to turn the position around to your way of thinking. I think this time will be no different mainly because you seem to be screaming out just like before, “Give me reasons not to break up.”

I am trying to put my finger on why this argument bothers me. I guess it sounds like the person who threw quotes out of context back in my face when things are never just black and white. I’ve seen you say this before, “The books I read say it’s okay for me to….”,



Okay, why do you need to point out that others do endless dating or all the different ways to do endless dating or the wrong ways to date? First these people aren’t you, you were from the beginning looking for a partner to marry some day. I don’t understand the comparison. Point is there are all types of ways, different situations, different people, but what does that have to do with you?

The only things I see in this paragraph are 1. it almost seems like your making excuses just in case you decide to keep it going with G that perhaps your dating her isn’t as bad as what others are doing and 2. It sounds like a person who make excuses for what they may be doing because there are even people doing it worse than they do. An extreme example I am sure but like, “I only stabbed him with a knife and that isn’t as near as bad as you shooting him with your gun.”

Don’t you think that is just clouding the issues you face and clouding the water of what your own goals are?

And as for your comment on “spouse hunting” verses “one day at a time”, I never read this thread, yet I’ve seen and read other opinions regarding this topic, I even saw some dating show where the girl was “spouse hunting”, she looked quite desperate which men could see through immediately, and the team of dating experts showed her how it was getting her no where and helped her losen up at first and enjoy the dating scene. Just like your quote on books talking about the uncertainty issues, it really sounds like you are taking the one day at a time out of context again. You and G are past the have fun and see where it goes stage, you are in a relationship and you now do need to determine whether your compatible or not. I would doubt seriously that too many would disagree with that, perhaps there are always a few but not the majority.

GG, I am just saying, be careful, it is so hard for anyone to break up with the person who was "almost the one" and think about starting all over, yet it is so much easier for that person to continue in the wrong relationship and not have to deal with starting over.

I am trying to help you see the pattern that I am seeing, your words say one thing but your arguments say another and I think even though your relationship should be over with G, I think G was "your almost one", it just seems that you really, REALLY don't want it to be over even though your gut knows it should be.

Anyway, good luck with your choices.

Anna

PS: Anna, thanks, it's my turn 'to take a shower'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Love you guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You are welcome, we sure seem to be on the same page on this one. Team work. Too funny!

AGG,

I went through a lot of lifestyle incompatibility issues with my fiance. I know I was advised many times that he was way too different.

The advice was correct. The issues I had with Fiance were that I was a family gal and he was a buddy boy.

He changed. That's all I can say. He acknowledged that his lifestyle was not conducive to a relationship and over time he took the steps necessary to "give up" those aspects of his life that were incompatible with mine.

It wasn't easy on either of us but it was something he made happen and I am grateful.

If G isn't making the necessary changes and you feel you've been patient, then you have to assume that she just can't make the leap.

I'm grateful that my fiance did change - he is a really great loving guy in many ways, like G.

V.

V,

Thanks for sharing this. I wish I had the same hopes for me and G.

But, I think that our differences are wider than something that can be fixed by her "changing". Sure, she can take some small steps, and so can I. But, in the end, we would have to accept the remaining differences, and I think that they would still be too big for me to accept.

When we tried to break up in June, G promised that she will make a bunch of changes; not for me, but because she knew her lifestyle has become incompatible with having a partner. I didn't think she could really change herself that much, but I decided to give it a try.

Well, three months later, not a thing has changed. Which does not surprise me. Besides, I would be very leary of someone changing "for me" - my expectation would be that people do not change for others, only for themselves - so I'd fully expect her to grow back into her old patterns the minute the knot was tied.

I know I sound very pessimistic, but I also don't want to hope for something that I have seen no reason to hope for. I am glad that your BF changed to where you feel compatible with him; unfortunatley, I don't see it happening with me and G.

When is the wedding date, BTW? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AGG

Sooooo... what's the final verdict, AGG??? I need to know how you are doing with this so I can head back into retirement... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You know, been thinking about you and G since you posted AGG, and, believe it or not, I find myself vacillating b/w, yup, she's not the one for him and hmmmm, gosh they get on so well in the major aspects (sex, kids, temperment, views), so what's the big deal cuz she likes to pretty up, not get dirty, doesn't clean, sleeps late blah blah....maybe we're just looking for Mr/Ms Perfect and not Mr/Ms. Right......

Then I remembered. The tone in your posts re: G these last few months. Your descriptions of her paint a picture of a very sweet, yet unmotivated, high-maintainence Hollywood-esque Princess, who's just looking for a man to take over for Daddy. Sorry to sound harsh, but that's how it's coming across to me......

Definitely sounds like you are losing respect for her and that is HUGE. I'M starting to lose respect for her and I don't even know her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

G is who she is. You are who you are. Try not to delay your parting. I know easier said than done, especially when you do get on so well, but she deserves to be w/ someone who can truly accept and respect her as is, as do you.......

Who_Dat:

Sorry bud, you're gonna have to wait a bit more before going back to retirement; this is still a work in progress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.



DW:

Yup, good description, that is why I have been vacillating too... The "good" is really good, the "bad" is really bad, but lots of the differences, taken individually, can be brushed off as "oh, come on, so what if someone sleeps late", etc. That's why it takes time to put together the full picture.


I wish it were that simple. In reality, she's not at all a Hollywood-esque princess, and I think she is actually fairly low-maintenance. Believe me, I have seen my share of the high maintenance LA chicks, and I can spot them from a mile away (and run for the hills).

G is actually one of those people who truly sees human relations as being first and foremost on her priority list. So she wants to spend all her free time being with her partner. But, somehow, this desire got to the point of not wanting to "waste" time on things like household chores, cooking, cleaning, etc, and rather focus on being together. It's almost like a good idea gone bad - "focus on your relationship with your partner (good) to the point of letting everything else go to pot (bad)". Does that make sense? I know Harley is a big proponent of quality time together (the whole 15 hours of undivided attention), but unless you live a vacation lifestyle, other things need to be taken care of too - and I don't see G doing that.

Another part of this is what I meant by her "free" time - between her sleep and getting ready routine, it is not very much. Oddly, I don't think that she tries to be pretty to impress others (i.e. the glamour element), I think it is almost some kind of insecurity, like she won't be loved or accepted without being fully "clean", dressed up, etc. It's sad for me that she emphasizes that so much, but it is something that clearly goes back to her high school days. She is very conscious of her appearance, and has always tried to maintain it. Even though this focus apparently killed her previous relationship, and is about to kill this one. And of course the older we get, the more effort this would require, so the future doesn't look very promising rither.

But, I cannot analyze her, it is not my job, and I am not qualified. All I know are the behaviors that I see, and regardless of WHY she is the way she is, her priorities, choices, and habits really bother me. I wish they didn't, but they do.

AGG

I hope I didn't come off too harsh on G earlier, b/c you've clearly stated alot more positives than negatives about her but, like you said, it's unfortunate that her priorites, choices etc aren't on the same level as yours.

One question, if her energy level increased and she bucked up to her share of household responsibilites, would her focus on her appearance bother you as much?

I imagine that even though she's not a typical LA girl, living in the area has certainly influenced her. Trust me, I'm not judging her. Quite the contrary. I'm not one to cast stones. I admit that my appearance is very important to me also--I do my nails, hair, stay fit, I'm into fashion, but I also mow my own lawn (almost an acre thankyouverymuch! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />), play softball w/ BF's team, and scrub a mean terlit.....

How will you tell G? What will you say? I imagine G is going to be shocked, especially when she appears to have made a effort, and it still not enough. Not knocking you AGG, b/c I really believe your concerns about those differences are very valid.

Curious, have you ever mentioned to her that you thought it was odd that her Dad essentially supports her, even though she has her own career? What was your response, at the time, when she mentioned that she would like to stay at home after marriage?

You did say to her, back in June, that you are looking for an equal partner, one to share in the load of life's daily activities and not someone to support and who could supervise others to do the work? She was clear on that?

Not at all!


Glad that that message came through, because I do see it that way!


Well, that is a hypothetical question, and those are always tough to answer. I'll answer it this way - sure, if the ONLY thing that we had a difference in was the focus on appearance, then it'd be fine. But it's not, not by far, and so it becomes just one additional annoyance, another tree in the forest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Precisely.. If G had all the "but" things going for her that you mention, it'd be a non-issue. But she doesn't - she seems to do little more than sleep, get ready/dressed, work, and relax. I know it sounds nasty, but that is all I see.


There is no way to say it "nicely". What I do think of saying when I bring this up is not as much "honey, we have a problem" as "honey, I am bummed that nothing has really changed in the past three months". I doubt it'll make it any better, but at least it kinda reminds her that we already had a "problem", so this should not be a huge surprise. But it will be, I know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.



We discussed this, and it is just the way she was brought up. Her dad is very generous, hard to fault him for that. Her mom stayed home (of course she raised three kids). So it seems like G learned some lessons growing up (as we all do) which now seem like "normal" to her, though I still do not know anyone who has a college degree but whose goal in life is to not work and just relax all day long. It sounds appealing, but it also sounds very sad.


Yup. I used the example of Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston from "The Breakup", where Jeniffer broke up with Vince because he was lazy, for lack of a better term. G and I saw the movie together. Well, she didn't see herself as Vince at all, even though in my eyes that is exactly how she is. Go figure. So I doubt I'll ever be able to "explain" this to her - she won't see it my way, of course.

AGG

Well, FWIW, we just had a long phone chat about "us", something that we haven't had in months.

I mentioned that I am having a very hard time getting over some of our differences, and her perspective was interesting.

She said that it's important to accept your partner without judging them, that everyone will have some differences. I view it differently - I believe that in CHOOSING a partner, it is not only OK, it is imperative to be picky and to not simply accept differences - that is what leads to resentment and problems down the line. It's the whole EN thing - Harley, IMO, is right that if ENs are not met, love tends to wither. G seems to have more of a "love counquers all" approach, which I do not believe to be the case.

Another interesting point she made is that she wants to be just accepted "as is", and to be allowed to be herself, and do her own stuff. I heard this comment a while back from her, and again, I think it spells trouble. While we all want to be accepted, we also should be challenged and motivated by our partner, as GDP said. And from G's comments, I can see that she will use this outlook to justify whatever behaviopr she decides to adopt later on - not working, relaxing all the time, etc.

Anyway, nothing earth shattering, but I think we have started the chatting, which has been a challenge in the recent past.

AGG

That's certainly a step!

I don't envy your future "chats".
Exactly why this non dating life is looking so appealing to me these days. UGH.

Karona

Yip, me neither... We will chat face to face tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Last night she said that it is basically up to me to decide if I can live with the differences, which she sees as small. A part of me wants her to agree that our differences are too great, but of course that won't happen, so I gotta do what I gotta do... I hate to be the bad guy, but then again, better be a bad guy now than later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG,

I think in my experience my very selfish SOs were the ones that thought they should be accepted "as is".

Sorry.

I'm thinking that she has it great. A great guy who cooks and cleans, and keeps the kids away so that she can sleep, and plans activities for fun, and works full time.

Sorry.

I look at my fiance's ex. I don't think she ever wanted to work. High maintenance. Will shop all day for the perfect something and spends hours on hair etc. Husband's daddy pays all the bills because they don't earn much money. Whines how everyone has changed because they are not opening their houses to her and her children for weeks on end like they used to do before she had children. She thinks a two or three week long visit a couple of times a year is a small thing.

V.

If it were only as simple as she is stating by leaving it up to you.
We all know, it won't be.

You are being more honest than you are the bad guy.

Best to you!

K!

AGG,

I remember getting that message from B. “Accept me and LOVE me as I am.” Actually, I think he wanted to me to love him because of his faults. Well, I just couldn’t. As is, he made too many withdrawals from the ole bank.

On the other hand, when dating, I think the as is policy is great. We have to take people as is for the most part. If their blemishes (part of the beauty of the natural fiber) are not acceptable to us, well, we just don’t buy the product.

G. would be perfect for a single man, no kids, who is either self-employed or independently wealthy, and likes the same kind of life style she does. You’re not saying her way is wrong, you’re just saying her way is wrong for you.

To me, the whole point of dating is to decide if you want to buy the farm, so to speak. Sure, once you make that choice, then you should mostly accept your partner as is. But, if I see incompatibility that I know will make love bank withdrawals later on, then I do not want to accept them as is. That is the whole point of dating - finding someone compatible, and not overlooking the incompatibilities. Most of us have BTDT, and seen how difficult incompatibilities make life over time.

I see G's point that she wants to be accepted as is, with her peculiarities, as a red flag for the future. I can see that whenever an issue would come later on down the line, I'd want to POJA it, but she would have the "accept me as is" answer. Taken to the extreme, it would imply that if I ever express the desire for her to help more around the house, to contribute financially to the household, travel less back East, etc etc, she can respond to any one of those with "that is just not my way". I have seen in the past that we had trouble POJAing, and this is more of the same.

She did keep saying that I am being judgemental and critical for not accepting her the way she accepts me - and like GG said, I told her that it is not a matter of me being right and her being wrong, just that we are very different.

GG, I agree that she largely wants to be accepted as is because somewhere deep down inside she knows how far "away from norm" she is in many ways, and instead of working on getting back to norm, it's easier to say "accept me as is". I dunno.

I feel that we are basically two deaf people talking to each other - she does not understand where I am coming from, and I think I don't fully understand her either. She feels that she has made tons of changes to reduce the differences, and I have not met her halfway. But to me, it just emphasizes how far apart we are - and we both are resenting the differences, even though she does not seem to realize it.

I am not loking forward to this evening <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Unfortunately (altough fortunately for her, I suppose) G doesn't have the, er, benefit of a failed marriage and all the inhent study and growth that you have, behind her, in order to see how dangerous it can be to a relationship to accept a person "as is" as she is describing,......of course we all want to be accepted for who we are. Absolutely! Therefore it would be imperative for G to find someone who has a similar lifestyle and views, so down the road, resentment doesn't build, which, as we all know, is a real killer to a romantic relationship.

These differences MAY be minor, as G has stated, but you know yourself well enough AGG not to rationalize away things that will contribute to problems later down the road. I applaud you for that....

It's not easy parting w/ someone w/ so many other positives, who you genuinely care for...

HUGS!

"Accept me as is" to me means - I love who I am, my life doing things I want, I don't want to change anything for I'm happy like this, and, as I told you, now I'm not responsible but you are...

Our differences/incompabilities are at least three times bigger in M vs. when dating.
Even with people they said (and meant it) they'd do their best to change some things...

DW:


B2M:


Great minds think alike, and I agree with you both. I know full well that marriage amplifies both the good and the bad over time - and our differences will drive me crazy - they already do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I'm sorry to hear the final decision. . .

but that's ok, if you don't make the decision, you will live in limbo or the decision will be taken away from you. .

wiftty

All done, except for returning some of her items back to her place.

As I always said, it may take me a while to make a decision, but once I do, there is no waffling.

Add one more entry to the alarmingly long list of hearts broken by AGG. Crap <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Anyway, I got through it, I am at peace, but I am also numb.

Thanks for all your support, my friends - I'll be back to my chipper self by the morning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG,

I am so sorry, and please don't be hard on yourself about breaking her heart. Of course you know, but just keep reminding yourself, better now than later for the both of you.

Take care,

Anna

Do you feel a weight has been lifted AGG?

I am sorry this R didn't work out for the two of you & that you're back to the search.

I know it was tough, AGG. It’s hard to hurt another person’s feelings. In spite of breaking her heart, I think you should be proud of how you handled this. You did her no harm, even though you hurt her. Just imagine if you hadn’t broken up with her! That would have been doing harm to her in so many ways. What if you put her in the position of “Change for me or else” and she did change. In the non-marriage stage of a relationship, I think this kind of a demand does harm too. Changing in order to keep your boyfriend means giving up a little or a lot of who you are. It weakens one’s sense of self and esteem. That’s harmful. (Entirely different from the Ah-Ha change where one sees the light of day through boyfriend’s example.)

This is the dreaded for sure.

I can only relate due to the one boyfriend I had.
We hit on so many levels, just as AGG and G.
There was still "something" that I couldn't put my finger on.
It's been well over a year since our break up and I still miss the good that we shared.

Break-ups are hard. However, I think you handled it well.
You gave it much thought and consideration, and you didn't find a replacement before ending it which is huge.

Thinking of you!

Well, I guess I feel like a weight has been lifted. But I also feel the weight of having hurt someone very special. Despite all the incompatibilities we had, we also had some very special bonds, and it is sad to hurt someone who was so devoted and so sweet to me. It sucks.

She e-mailed me this morning, and as I suspected, she is in total shock from how things changed overnight from her thinking that all was well to us being "done". I can understand that, I have not been the best at giving her clues of what was on my mind - I was trying to observe without nudging or nagging.

She asked me to explain to her the differences that I see between us that are causing the breakup - I think she still thinks that it's basically the sleep and the clutter, which is far from the whole picture. I don't know how to respond to that - I can't give her all the details, because it would be hurtful and because in truth, she can have an answer or counterpoint to each one - "I will be more active", "I'll learn to cook", "I won't quit work after marriage", etc. I don't want to go there, but I feel she deserves more than "sorry Honey, we are just too different". Any ideas, oh great breakup veterans?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

She asked if I would consider giving us more time to try, I don't want to because I know it won't change anything, it'll just prolong the pain and make her miserable; kind of like we experience when we stand on our heads trying to Plan A someone who has one and a half feet out the door.

BTW, nams, I know you meant it more generally than literally, but the last thing on my mind right now is searching for a replacement <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I am too numb to even think about anyone else, let alone getting back into the abyss of LA dating, with all the wackos, players, lost souls, and golddiggers out there... It's funny, just thinking of seeing all those glamor shots of big bleached-tooth smiles, and the standard phrases of "I love to live life to the fullest" and "I love my pair of Levis and my slinky cocktail dress" make me want to barf. I think I'll focus on my hobbies, friends, and kids for a long long while.

So, no, I am not chipper at all today.

AGG

Well, you could always give her the old "It's not you, it's me" line.

Or you could point out that the fact she sees you as very compatible, where you don't; and that she sees the differences as minor and you see them as problematic are indications of how very far apart you two are.

I agree about not going into details. Maybe tell her one more time that you two are too different, cite that she thinks she's made lots of changes, yet they aren't enough for you. Then, let it go. And don't talk to her again. She's not going to agree since this is not what she wants. She won't understand no matter how you explain it now.

Sorry. AGG. It will be okay.

Before my affair, before I found MB, when I saw the danger signs approaching and went to talk to my W about the things I saw missing in our relationship, she told me, "You knew I was like this when you married me, so that's the way it will always be."

Yes, and exact quote. Instead of pursuing the issue with her, I shut down and pursued the wrong thing with someone else.

After the affair, and after finding MB, we tried some more. I think she actually put forth an effort for a bit, but it was just too easy for her to slip back into her patterns. Those lifelong patterns, coupled with the fact that she never really loved me (another quote from her) didn't give her the incentive to really work on the marriage and our interactions. Once I realized this, once I realized (and she told me) that *I* was the only one really working on our marriage, we were doomed.

And I couldn't be happier.

I'm sorry about things with G, AGG... but like others have said, better now than later, especially when those differences would have sapped your LoveBank for her dry. You will instead have wonderful memories. My subsequent relationship after my marriage was a lot like yours with G... passionate and wonderful. There was a point, however, where the differences got to be too much, and after one of our (epic) fights, I went over to break up. I decided at her urging to give it "another try," which turned into a few more, and my Lovebank was subsequently drained by the differences and demands.

One thing of note... I was telling her about MarriageBuilders and she completely scoffed at all the principles... and I mean *all* of them. She said she "might" read the books after I decided to go back and re-read them to see if it "still had any merit."

That should have been a clue for me right there.


Well, I'm certainly not a veteran (two relationships in the last 25 years... three if you count my affair, which I certainly don't), but why not stick with MB... tell her that there are certain, basic incompatibilities that are draining your love for her, and you can't stand the thought of not loving her?

Chin up, AGG... you *will* find someone wonderful and wonderful for you. How could you not? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yeah, give things some time (and although I have no urge whatsovever to date, in perusing all the online personals out of curiousity as to what's out there I too have seen those gagworthy lines), but you'll be AGoodGuy for someone!

Until then... those beers we were going to buy each other have been sitting there getting flat for about five years now, haven’t they??? ;-)

If you feel the need to explain further, this is what I would go with. These are vague enough that she could learn from this and apply it to her next relationship, where giving specifics (sleeping late, not being active) would not necessarily be a problem in a relationship with someone else.

I wouldn't keep revisiting the same issues though; I don't think it helps anyone to keep in contact after an ended relationship. Clean cuts are the best.

AGG, if we cannot accept... what else can we do than move on without it...


Just recalling me should nicely soothe you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AGG,

Fiance and I were talking about your situation last night. The conversation led to a break up last year that I initiated after I finally thought he would not change his ways. At one point he was getting a little defensive about the fact that he thought he was changing and I didn't see changes, well I asked him if he would have come as far as he had if I hadn't broken up with him.

Incentive? I don't know. I was tired of everyone else being more important to his time than I was. I think you are tired of G's sleep schedule and general lack of motivation.

I think if G asks and you need something - tell her you are disappointed by her general lack of motivation. All the other "stuff" is just symptoms, right?

V.

GG:

That's what I basically e-mailed her today in response to her e-mail asking me to reconsider. I'm sure she'll press for details, and I will try very hard to not go there.


Very true. Thanks GG.

Who_Dat:


Yup. I think we MB veterans realize that this is how things work; unfortunately, I think G has the much more idealistic view that love and marriage will conquer all.



That's a nice thought, and I would like to remember our relationship for the good things, rather than for "trying" and arguing and suffering. So I like the way you put it - not that it'll help her any, but I hope that this may allow me and her to be friends some day way down the line.



Hehe, of course, you and me are looking at the same dating pool, so we know what's out there, er, here...


Nah, they are aging, not going flat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AFS:


I agree. I think that nothing good can come out of explaining things, it'll just hurt her more without any benefit.

B2M:


Yeah, all I see when I do that is you standing there with a 2x4 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Sunny:


I think that would be very hurtful to her, and she would either not agree with it or simply say that her motivation is focused elsewhere - build a happy family life, bond, relax together, etc, instead of being motivated to do chores. I just don't want to go down that path, which is why I want to stick to the very top level stuff. Even though in a way I feel that she deserves an explanation, more than just a "we're different line". But she won't hear my explanation anyway, she'll simply try to argue with me, so what is the point?

AGG

I don't know...I'm thinking a well crafted letter outlining what you consider to be deal breakers might put an end to the questions G must have. You also make it clear the letter will be the last of the explainations due to the hurt you both feel.

You don't have to be cruel or mean spiritied just the truth.

For example you could say "Though I see you've made changes over the last few months regarding your sleep habits I know we are still so far apart that it's a difference I can't live with."

Regarding her desire to stop work after marriage: "I understand that in your family your mother stayed home to care for the family & the house & therefore didn't work outside the home. In our case I don't see how that would work. You prefer to sleep in when there are lots of activities the kids are involved in, you're not as concerned about a neat & clean home as I am."

I think if I were in G's position I'd like concrete reasons. You don't need to beat the topics to death. Just provide them & leave it.

It hurts to have just the surface stuff referred to.

So sorry AGG. I know you're hurting too.

Have you considered telling her this was the second chance?
You nearly broke up several months ago, but stayed together on the premise that she was working on things. Which didn't happen.

So this summer already was "more time to try."

AGG, I hope you can decide how to communicate more to her about the differences. I think she deserves to know more than just the sleeping and clutter reasons. Those seem too superficial to cause a break-up. Maybe try to tell her more about how those lifestyle differences cause frustration and resentment -- and you don't want to feel that way towards a partner.

You really are a good guy....

I know and I agree. If the reasons were clearcut dealbreakers (you are dishonest, you are an addict, you are mentally ill) that'd be easy. But none of my reasons, individually, are such dealbreakers.

So here is what I see happening once I start explaining. She'll start responding to each one with a counterargument, which I am sure she will feel genuine about:

"sleep in too late" => "I'll change my schedule" (she already suggested that in today's e-mail)

"too cluttered" => "I will change that" (and she really has cleaned up her place in the last few weeks)

"don't want you to stay home and do nothing" => "I reconsidered, I will not want to quit work"

"don't like you going back East so often" => "I have seen the light and won't go back as often"

"don't like your lack of activity and motivation" => "once I switch my schedule, I'll be more energetic, I promise!"

"don't like your spending habits and dependence on parents" => "you are right, I need to change, I'll start tomorrow!".

See what I mean? I know she deserves answers, but then again, don't I deserve the right to my own point of view? It's not like her arguing with me is going to make me say "oh, hmm, you are right", any more than my reasons will make her do the same...

AGG

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


(Btw, that sentence comes after you said it takes more time for you to make a decision... then I thought of my 4 years 'giving it time'... so, whenever you think you need too much time to make decision, recall people they need more...)

Thanks Lexxxy.. I'm a tough cookie, it is only for her that my heart is breaking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I know I'll be fine.


I told her that in an e-mail. She replied that the last couple of months were very hectic, not "normal", so she had no chance of making the adjustments. So she says that now that things are back to "normal", now would be the opportunity to try again. But there was nothing abnormal about the past few months, it was just "life" - vacations, some business travel, etc, but overall, it was life as life is and as we make it. For instance, she is heading back east again tonight for a few days, only five weeks after being there for two weeks. So, nothing has changed. But I don't want to keep nagging at that - it's not like if she stopped going back there that I'd feel good about it, nor will she. She'll just resent me. Anyway, my point is that I know what life with her would be like, I don't see the point of trying more.


I know.. I agree. I just don't know how to do it without it being what I posted to nams...


Awww, thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Hm... I agree but... these particular reasons... she should know by herself, if she plans having the Family... i.e. can you really open someone's eyes if they do not want to see...?

I mean, I'd understand her wish (for example) not to work when married (with no kids and not taking all care of the home) if she were 20-25...
Is it, in 40s, real to look for?
Or it's just me not understanding/knowing men from that part of the world over there...

I understand, and I truly appreciate you sharing your story. My "2x4" comment was not meant to be negative, very often a 2x4 is what is needed!

Thanks B2M!

AGG

Let's hope you will get the same chance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm always fine with getting what I (really) deserve(d) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

See what I mean? I know she deserves answers, but then again, don't I deserve the right to my own point of view? It's not like her arguing with me is going to make me say "oh, hmm, you are right", any more than my reasons will make her do the same...

Yes...you do deserve that right. So, I would suggest that you tell her that you have a different "value" system.

You differ on how you value time and money for starters. You value money as something that is earned and used as a way to support yourself and enjoy life. Her value in money is that it is green wads of paper that her Mom leaves on the table so that she can play. You value time because you know that there are just so many hours in a day to get everything you need and want done...with only so many left in which to enjoy life.

She is living off of someone else's dime...and someone else's time (yours when you are together).

You can "accept" that she is that way, it doesn't mean that you have to include her in your future.

When people want explanations, they will attempt to change that person's mind. What if you just don't want to see her anymore because you don't want to? Aren't you entitled to that reason? I happen to think that you are.

jmho
committed

Funny timing... Just before I logged into MB, I sat here thinking the very same thing - why do I have to keep explaining and arguing? Why do I have to convince her that my views are valid? It's not like we are married, having promised each other to stay together for better or for worse...We dated, I got to know her, I don't want to marry her... I know it's sad for her, it's sad for me too... But at some point, the arguing and discussing should give way to grieving.

I know the aswer to my questions, of course - "she deserves to know"... But I don't think she'll understand my reasons, so she won't really "know" them, and we will only argue over it and cause more heartaches.

I hope that her being out of town these next few days will help things settle a bit, and that she will stop pushing for explanations and reasons. She did write to me today that she does not hold a grudge, and while disappointed, is not angry. I know that this is probably more bravado than reality at this point, but hopefully in time she will fully accept this ending...

AGG

AGG,

My best girlfriend and I went through our divorces together, incredibly today she told me she is breaking up with her BF tomorrow, this is the second time she has tried to break up with him, first time was very similar to yours, she thought he deserved answers, they went back and forth as to how he can change these little things that annoyed her...she wasn't quite certain the relationship should end, I think he was like G was to you, "almost the one" and closer than any others so it was very hard to admit defeat, let go when she knows how many awful dates she had to go through to find a guy even close to what she wanted and she'll have to start the search all over again...anyway, we just got through going for a walk and as we walked she said, "I have to break up with him, I realized last night that I don't even love him like I should any more." Thinking back, I think she was starting to fall in love with him at one point, but the little differences and the things that get on her nerves about him have made her grow more distant than close to him. Anyway, she said, "I know he deserves answers again but I just don't want to go through the same thing as last time, with me pointing out differences and him being positive and pointing out ways to fix them. Anyway, I told her, "I think this time you should just say, I don't love you the way I should and it can't be forced, you are a wonderful person and nothing is wrong with you, you are just not for me." and leave it at that.

While I know your situation is different because you seem to have loved G very much, I think like my friend, you too are starting to lose a lot of respect for G and in time would have lost a lot of the feelings for her

Also, just wanted to say, I think G is sincere when she says she is not angry and she really is disappointed. I think this because two years ago both times J broke up with me, I never got angry, I never took it personally like that, it wasn't my personality and it probably just isn't G's either. How can a person be angry with someone when they are just expressing their true feelings? You can't help that, just like J couldn't either. She knows your a great guy, and deep down I think she knows your right.

Anna

AGG,

This is the time for NO CONTACT. NC.

YOU are dragggggggingggg this thing out.

NC.

You've said what you mean in a face to face.

If you truly want to end this, then END IT. NO CONTACT.

The pain/questions/second guessing/promsing to change/accomodations will only continue.

If you continue to email, it will go on and on and on and on and on.......

You've ended it.

END IT.

Yup, this does sound very similar to my story with G, and that is why I am against getting into the breakup reasoning - if one person does not want to break up, they will keep arguing against it, to no end. Not to be difficult, but because to them these truly were not good enough reasons.


Yes, I sensed this with G as well. When we were just going out on dates, it was wonderful, but when we spent any considerable amount of time together, especially with my kids (which meant more responsibility), I found myself frustrated and annoyed at how little she helped, and I felt myself become distant, which she noticed of course.


I know that this is true, which is why I did not want to keep trying, until finally we both hate each other. Like Who_Dat said, I'd rather retain the good memories than grind them into nastiness, sadness, and anger.


I'd like to think that this is the case, Anna, thanks for the good thoughts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Well, we basically did that. I consider today to have been "mopping up" operations, because I know she was completely blindsided yesterday, and I do think that she deserved to at least ask a few basic questions ("is this really the end", "can you bring my stuff back", "can I ask why?"), instead of me walking out last night and leaving her completely confused.

But now I plan to go into a regrouping mode and not have further contact. I told her that was my plan, and she said she'll honor it.

AGG

This such a difficult situation & probably there is no one right answer for every couple breaking up.

I am sorry for the pain this causes both of you.

I can absolutly understand your reluctance to spell all the painfull details out to G especially if she's inclined to pick them apart. No body wins that game.

I don't have the answer what will make both of you feel better. Her with a better/clearer understanding of why a future with her is untenable for you. You a way to provide answers that won't be picked at & leave a neat end.

(((AGG)))

Well, I have been feeling better than expected the last couple of days. I feel very relieved. And I think that tells me something, because the last two times I tried to break up, I felt awful. So I think this tells me that this was the right thing to do.

Every once in a while I think of G, and how she must be struggling trying to figure all this out. I know that for her, she felt totally blindsided, and I know it is very hard to understand when something like this happens. So of course I feel really sad for her.

Still, I don't feel like I did the worng thing. So, I am slowly moving on and getting back into my routine.

AGG

If G as wonderful and sweet a person as you've said she is then she'll have no problem meeting someone who finds her compatible. "Real" women are a rarity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Glad you're feeling better about your situtaion. Knowing that you don't need to to settle is a powerful thing.
Best of luck to you both.