OK folks, I promised to give an update on where I see things with G after almost 9 months of dating.

You might remember that I tried to break up with her about two months ago. In many ways, I am glad we did not break up back then – I think that having spent more time together has given me a better ability to connect the dots, or to put all the individual trees into a forest, so to speak.

So, how do I see this forest? G is clearly someone with whom I am very compatible in the Wavelength and Sexual dimensions, meaning that we really see most everything the same way, react to them the same way, “get” the world the same way, and are very attracted to each other (“chemistry” or whatever). I do not underestimate the importance of compatibility in these two areas, of course, because I have seen how difficult relationships are when the compatibility is low in these two dimensions.

She is great to be with, we always laugh together and seem to enjoy being together. My kids adore her, and she seems really close to them. So I greatly enjoy being with her in this “dating” mode, as I do think that she makes a great “companion” for me – someone to go out with, without fully entangling our lives.

On the other hand, we are totally out of whack in the Practical dimension, the day-to-day lifestyle area. I would say that not any one of our differences is enough to break up, which is why we kept dating. But, now that I am able to put together all the individual trees into the “forest”, I am not liking what I see.

Not to rehash old issues, but she is basically stuck at getting up around noon, and I am up around 7. This leaves us with a 5 hour time difference in our circadian rhythms. While I tried to work around it, I am realizing that I am tired and annoyed about always planning my life and weekends with this huge accommodation to be made. I am not saying that she is wrong and I am right – as with most everything else, we are simply different. Very different. I have seen in the past few months the practical implications of this difference, and it annoys me to no end – when on vacation, I am sitting around with my thumb in my ear waiting for her to get up and get ready; when we are at home, I am driving all over town getting errands done and waiting for her to get up and join me. “Normal” things like getting up and going for a hike, going out for breakfast, or seeing a matinee at the movies, become a scheduling and negotiation exercise.

I see that once she is up, she has a totally different activity and energy level than I do. Once I am up, I am ready to do something, be it chores or errands, going for a walk, driving somewhere, whatever – but G is more inclined to sit and go through her catalogs (which she receives at a much higher rate than she gets rid of), catch up on some taped TV shows, etc. I feel like I am always tugging at her to get her out of the house, and I don’t like it. I don’t like a partner who is basically a couch potato. She seems overly preoccupied with cleanliness, for lack of a better word. So, the idea of going camping, to the beach, a bike ride, etc, really bothers her, as she does not want to get dirty or sweaty. I, on the other hand, like those kinds of activities, and do not see a problem with going camping and getting sweaty. So, over the course of this summer, as I was sitting with my kids at a beautiful campsite, looking at clear blue sky and green trees, breathing fresh air, I found myself wondering how nice it would be to have my partner right there with me enjoying the very same things.

There are still the old annoyances of her incredible clutter and almost-monthly trips back east. I have more or less come to accept those, and I consider them fairly minor compared to others.

Some of the other issues I have sort of put together into a composite picture over the months are more difficult for me to accept. The 900 pound gorilla is money (of course). I have more or less observed how G deals with money, and it is something that I am having real trouble getting used to, as it is so different from my approach. The bottom line is she does not support herself financially. It turns out that her parents send her rent money every month. They pay for all her trips back East. The pay for all her medical bills, they pay for her vacations and major purchases, they fund her IRA, and I suspect the cover lots of her other expenses. Her dad has a lot of money according to her, and she welcomes his generosity, as she calls it. I cannot fundamentally fault her for having a generous father, but it really bothers me to see a 40 yo woman who basically needs her parents to support her lifestyle. My concern is that G has gotten used to the lifestyle of living beyond her means, which is why she has no problem going to a $100/couple restaurant, buying expensive things without shopping around or looking for a sale, expecting to hire help to do all chores around the house, etc. And I am afraid that if she were married, it would become her husband's duty to take over supporting this lifestyle.

The kicker was when she told me recently that in general, she does not want to work, and would hope to be able to stay home after marriage. That totally blew me away. I tried to picture how it would be if my spouse stayed home (not to raise kids, but to simply stay home), and I managed to accept the possibility of it working – but I would then expect my spouse to keep the house clean, fridge stocked, meals prepared, etc. And unfortunately, that is not G’s vision at all – her vision is to be able to sleep longer, stay current on all the TV shows, do more shopping, and be ready to go out to dinner when I get home. I know that I wouldn’t be able to live with that, as I would have trouble respecting her.

I think that is what it really comes down to – as I get to know G, I am having more and more trouble respecting her. I think she is a great lady, but I simply cannot get over the notion that there is something broken there – that a 40 yo woman should have some more independence, motivation, energy, and interests than she does. Somehow, it seems like she has never really left home, and that her parents are still protecting her as if she were a 20 yo, waiting for her man to come and rescue her. It makes me very sad for her, because I think she has so much potential – but I have been burned before hoping for someone to live up to their “potential”.

So, while we are still enjoying dating, I am more and more pessimistic about being able to be married to her. I know that I would want to accept my spouse "as-is" to be married to them, and I am having a very hard time accepting many things about G. I think that we should have a chat one of these days, to kind of see where we are – I suspect that she is thinking that since we are not discussing anything then everything must be fine, but that is not the case and I don’t want to mislead her. Unfortunately, there is always something on the horizon that “keeps” us from having deep and difficult discussions – a vacation, her birthday, family in town, etc. Of course I know that these are just excuses, and my plan is to try to have some chats in the next few days or weeks. Problem is, I don’t know what to say other than “Honey, I love being with you, but I don’t think I can see myself being married to you”. Ugh.

Well, there you have it, feel free to comment or even beat me up. Really, I am glad that I didn’t break up with her two months ago, as I feel that I have truly given this relationship a real try, and now I can say with comfort that I know how things with G would be, instead of projecting based on a few occasional incidents or events. It’s too bad that the same picture emerged in the end, but at least I learned a little more about what I need and want in a partner, and what I can’t live with.

AGG

WOW!! BRIGHT LIGHTS here AGG.

I guess I'm a little speechless myself right about now concerning the part about her parents supporting her and all she does.

I think you were wise to give it the extra time that you have.
In my world, it's always better in my heart and head to have the clarity of knowing what was what for sure.

Good luck with what's to come.

Karona

I won't beat you up. My parents help me out from time to time. Sometimes they are very generous indeed. But, I pay my mortgage and car and stuff.

The Practical arena is what really broke my marriage. Turns out, B and I were out of sync on Wavelegnth and a bit on Chemistry, but what I really couldn't live with was the day-to-day stuff. Unfortunately, people often don't get to find that out until they get married.

I hope your conversations go well.

Wow! It sounds like the parents have been paying her way until someone else comes along who will take over.

GG - this is worlds away from your parents helping you out from time to time.

Gotta say it AGG, she sounds like she's a pricess who has pretty much gotten what she wants in her life & not through personal hard work. My guess is past BFs have objected to her desire to not work after marriage. This one floors me.

Since she is looking for marriage & you know you don't want that with her it would be considerate of you to tell her soon.

Thanks for the replies, ladies. It's interesting that you all focused on the part about her parents supporting her - to me, that is part of the whole picture, but like everything else, if it was the ONLY part, it would be fine - it's really the whole combined picture that bothers me.

Just to clarify - G does have a full time and makes a reasonable living. Which is why I did not see any concerns here when we first started dating. The "surprises" were to find out that her parents pay her monthly rent, and that she would like to not work after marriage. The additional details about her parents sponsoring all her trips back East, making major purchases for her, etc, didn't help any.

She is not financially irresponsible, but I can also see that she has been conditioned to not worry about money. I do worry about money, and try to save whenever I can. So I can see how our styles would clash if we were married.

Just to clarify, GG - I have no problem with parents helping out their kids - my parents helped me buy out my ex's share of the house, for example. That is fine. What bothers me is that G's parents are not just "helping out" so she can make ends meet, they basically give her an allowance so that she can live a lifestyle she really cannot afford. So, she basically lives beyond her means, and that does bother me. Because I don't want to argue over money, but I wince every time I see her buy things without a second thought, even though someone else is paying for them. It's a very fundamental difference in day to day life and how decisions are made, and I think it would be an eternal struggle if we ever tried to combine households.

AGG

I think I didn't express myself clearly. I understand the financial end. I know it has to do with attitude as much as anything.

I also agree that the life habits like arising at noon is trouble waiting to happen. BTDT. I was actually as much focused on that.

I was also surprised she wanted to stay home when she doesn't appear to be the Martha Stewart type. Much to my own chagrin, I seem to be very ambitious in the MS department. Sewing, gardening, painting, decorating, cooking, entertaining, blah, blah, blah. Heck, I iron sheets. If I stayed home, I'd have a really huge job. LOL.

However, not eveyone is wired like I am. Many people would rather pay someone else to create their home for them. To each her own. Rambling. Sorry.

I'm sorry she's not a good permenant fit.

Yes, well said. I think that is the crux of it - not the money, but the attitude and lifestyle.


Yeah, and I truly thing I could have learned to accept that, if it were the ONLY thing. But like so many other things with G, I could get used to the individual differences, but as WHOLE, they scare me.


Well, that's the problem. I could possibly get used to the idea of my spouse staying home, IF she did something else, anything, to be a partner. Clean, cook, organize, take on something to make me proud. But, to anticipate that she would basically sleep more, watch more TV, relax more, and not do anything to make my life any easier, is a hard pill to swallow. She is not old or sick, why shouldn't I expect a spouse to be a full partner?


Well, I wouldn't mind paying someone else to create our home, IF I felt that G would do something else that was "useful". But I keep coming empty; for every thing I consider normal for people to do (grocery shop, cook, clean, organize, do errands, etc), her response is always "I am too tired, I'll get sweaty, I don't want to focus on this chore".

We are just so very different, it is really sad to see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

AGG,

Maybe I am off base here, but why not try this...

Depending on your relationship with her Father, I think that a little talk with him is in order. Tell him that you can see your relationship with G maybe going to the next level. Start a conversation about how you are, concerning what you feel is a proper man's duty (financially), and go from there. Sort of explain mildly about how you feel that his "help" may be a little bit uncomfortable in your and G's relationship. Maybe...awww heck...you know the drift.

Basically, tell him that you feel that a family becomes their own entity. Occasional help is OK, but...you really want your family to stand on its own. That is your beliefs in life.

I think that maybe he can see where you are coming from, and can help you out there. The reason that she is not as independent as you would like is basically because there is no need for her to be. Parents fault just as well as hers.

Maybe, just maybe....she can adjust to live within her means. Really, if you look at it, she is living within her means. She just has "means" at her disposal that most of us don't. I don't think that I would chuck the relationship just yet, until I saw her in the position and see how she reacted then.

I really think that you need to try to enlist Mom and Dad's help and understanding before you make any major decisions.

Just my .02


HCII

but hcii, what AGG seems to be saying is that it's not just about the money, it' her 'lifestyle'.....she's used to being taken cared of, doesn't appear to have the desire to do much other than just hang out, and that would be ok, if that was compatible w/ how AGG lives his life and what he was looking for in a partner.....

AGG, is her Mom a stay-at-home mom/woman? A lady who "lunches"? If so, I'm thinking that that's all G really knows.

You sound much more a peace w/ things and I too believe you gave it a really fair chance. I admire your ability to piece it all together and truly "see" the forest....

I'm really sorry that it appears G is not THE ONE.....

HUGS!

AGG, that was really well-thought-out. Hmm...

The question I think I would be asking in this situation is: "What is this person doing to encourage and inspire and show me how to be a better person?"

There are women to whom I've been attracted. There are women whom I've greatly respected. There are women whom I've understand at a profound level - and who understood me back. There are women who have fit into all three categories.

But for me this is not enough. If our relationship is not such that we can each influence the other to be and become a greater person than we would otherwise be, then I'm going to keep looking.

In fact, in some ways I fear that being "comfortable" with each other is actually a temptation to complacency. I want someone who will keep pushing me, and who wants to keep being pushed. Not everyone's looking for that, I know. But I would be very concerned about getting involved with someone who is basically just looking for a nest.

It seems to me that the issue with G is not so much about whether she can adjust her lifestyle - or is even willing to, although those are extremely important considerations. No, it's a matter of goals, or of vision. It's a matter of values. Do you want both want the same things out of life? It does not appear so...

Wow, GdP. That's very profound.

Very good insight Gnome!

I'm trying to finish a book....."The Seven Levels Of Intimacy"

Through out, it talks about becoming the best version of yourself. And the one you're with, helping you become the best version of yourself.

Your response made me think about this book.

Karona

Yes, I like this. I like this ALOT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

*itty bitty threadjack* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How are you doing Karona?

hcii:


I understand what you are saying, hcii, and I don't see this as anyone's "fault" - it's just the way it is. So I certainly do not blame G for this, nor do I really blame her parents, as I am sure their intent is good. I do have to say that I know for sure that my goal as a parent is to raise kids who can stand on their own two feet, and from what I have seen, her parents unfortunately sabotaged that in all their kids.

Her dad apparently does have a lot of money, but G does not know how much. To be honest, if I knew that she had a trust with her name on it that would be enough to sustain us forever (e.g. if her last name was Hilton <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), I might be able to get used to this. But this is not the case - her dad has money, but he also has three daughters. There is nothing to say that he or his wife will not have a long illness at some point, or that one of G's sisters will need huge financial help, and that this lifestyle that G got used to could be wiped out in a heartbeat. It is just a very different outlook on money - I believe in spending what I need to, and saving the rest - G has been conditioned to spend what she wants, because there is always more.

I am not sure what a chat with her dad would accomplish - unless I said "sir, stop sending G money, I'll take over from here". But I have no intent or ability to sponsor her current spending habits, so I don't see how that would work. I don’t want to support my spouse as if she were a child. I saw a weird example of this when we vacationed back East with her family. Every day, her mom left them wads of cash to use for their daily activities and food. So one day they got up, and G and her sister looked at each other, and the sister said – “G, did mom leave us any money for today?”. I swear, it sounded like two 12 yo girls talking, not two women around 40 who have been employed for the past 18 years or so. There was something about this that really rubbed me the wrong way.

DW:

Yes, I think a lot of this comes from her family background. Her mom was a SAHM; but heck, she had three kids to raise. I have no problem with that. And she made her husband lunches and dinners every day, and kept the house clean. IOW, the classic Cleaver family. While that is not my family role model, I could see myself being OK with it.

But, it seems that G has picked up bits and pieces of that lifestyle - no work - but discarded the rest - taking care of the house, doing errands, etc. She wants to hire people to do all that. And I would have trouble respecting that. It just reeks of some handicap, which I don't think G has.

And really, I keep feeling that something went awry at some point in G’s life. She comes from a great family, I met her parents, they are both loving, caring, genuine people. They clearly gave her a good start in life, and they clearly love her – G was valedictorian in HS, got top grades in college, and has held jobs for many years and moved up to management. But I think something went south at some point – it’s as if G’s parents said to her – “don’t worry honey, we’ll take care of you until a man comes along, and then you'll be able to just relax”. Well, 20 years later, they still seem to be in that pattern – she does not cook, does not run a household, has never married or had kids, does not seem to be motivated to do much other than relax and sleep, and seems to live for the “future” with a husband. It seems surreal at times.

GDP:

That is exactly right, and that is the question I kept asking myself and coming up short in my answers.

I feel like I am always pushing G to "live" - get out of bed, get something accomplished, go for walk, get a hobby, anything. And I don't want to push someone like this. I want my partner to push me as much as I push her - nothing major, I am not one of those "live life to the fullest" nuts, but still, I want some semblance of living life. And I felt like G was constantly an anchor. I get frustrated that she sees it as an accomplishment that she caught up on Oprah episodes or gone through a stack of catalogs.

That is why I keep feeling that G is a great companion, someone to go on dates with and have nice conversations with, but she is nothing like the partner I want, someone who would help me grow and become a better person. I want my partner to be as motivated, energetic, and active as me, which is not all that active, but still, someone who will want to live life - and it's quite a handicap when you can't get out of bed until 11, and then need two hours to get "ready" for anything. Heck, by that time, I would be on my lunchbreak after having done a few activites. Instead, I sit around moping and waiting.

It seems very judgemental of me to think that way about her, because it's not like she is a bad or defective person - but yes, I do not feel that she wants to do the things I want to do in life, and that bothers me. I don’t want to push someone to do what I think is fairly “normal” stuff – first, she’ll eventually resent me, and second, it creates a parent/child relationship more than a partnership. And like you, GDP, I don't want to settle for a companion when I really want a partner.

So, now, I need to figure how and when to bring this up, given that we have not had a relationship talk in months, and she probably thinks that all she has to do is wait a couple of more motnhs, and we'll get engaged. Ugh.

AGG

OK then. (You shouldn't say this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)



I really cannot understand this.
No single issue is a 'dealbreaker', but 'as whole' (not dealbreaker either, at least not yet) is that "scare" you. You needed to put all 'trees' together to see you don't like so much the forest? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Three dimensions... I fully understand your concern about Practical one... yet you say that you are compatible in the Wavelength dimension... and I cannot see it... Not in the way I think it should exist in a R-to-be-M anyway...
(I admit I'm fed up with 'talk the talk but not walk the walk' and that might blur my vision... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Above some other things - to get married to stop working, although no kids, nor "MStewart at home", just to have enough time for herself... I would call it..... (OK, I counted to 10(0) and will self-censore myself here...)

However

IMO you know to say anything you want. (This is a compliment.)
If and when you want.
And you don't because...? Not ready to break up, fear of losing her, sadness things didn't work, resistance to go back to the beginning/searching for someone else, starting, againb, so much energy... or all of this together...

Not good reason to stay and you know this too... much worse not to tell her what's in your mind...

What I cannot also understand is... OK, I could be way off, but if you honestly tell her that NO WAY you can accept 'this and that' to be married at all... why wouldn't she change some things... Not that you change her, but she herself... for if she wants a M, M means the family, and the family means giving up quite things we deeply enjoyed in our 'singlehood'...

Or I just 'idealize' what love and family and desire to have it really mean nowadays... Or some/most/? people do this from other reasons too...


What would be your advice to someone who wrote this?
And what for all of this?
After nine months...

No worries, I can take it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.



Ok, what don't you understand? I am saying that I see a lot of differences in our lifestyles - any ONE of them I could probably live with, but all together make for a situation that I doubt I'd be happy with. Pick any one issue - if the only problem was the sleeping in, but everything else were perfect, I'd probably be fine. If the only problem were her spending habits, but everything else was perfect, I'd probably be fine. Etc. Instead, I see that I am constantly tripping up over all these individual issues, and I am tired of tripping. I feel like at every turn, at every interaction, there is a difference. Not a dealbreaker in and of itself, but enough to annoy me. So, put them all together, and I've got a life of annoyances. I know you know what I am saying, B2M <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


Yeah, IKWYM. I am using the Wavelength dimension the way it was defined in the book - not that you have the same routines and goals as your partner, but that you have the same reactions to the world around you. So you laugh at same things, view world events the same way, etc - sort of like with your best same-sex friend. In general, G and I are compatible in the Wavelength dimension.


That kinda straddles the Practical and Wavelength dimensions, I agree. It's mostly Practical (your daily routine), but it does touch upon the Wavelength as well ("I don't get how anyone could live a life like this"). Also, realize that if G were posting here, she wouldn't say her goals would be to stay home and have time for herself - she would definitely say that she would plan to run the household (not DO most things, but at least arrange for them to get done). But, I don't see any evidence that she has the motivation, energy, and ability to do so - after 9 months of dating, her kitchen countertops are still as cluttered with magazine stacks as they were the day we met, when she said it's her top priority to unclutter them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


Yes and no. All the things you say are reasons, but they are not the only reasons. I happen to adore G, as she is one the sweetest, most loving, caring, honest, genuine, and selfless women I ever dated. And yes, I am very attracted to her and I love being with her. So, the feelings are very much still there, and it is not as much the fear of being alone as it is those feeling that have made me decide to give this relationship every opportunity to work.


First, I did tell her that I wanted to break up with her back in June. For these very reasons. So this should not be a total surprise for her. She said she'd change, and I wanted to give her the opportunity to do so. What did I have to lose? And I am glad that I gave it more time - things have really become more clear for me with time.


Beats me. When I tried to break up with her in June, she begged me to give her a chance to change herself, she said she knew that she has developed a lifestyle incompatible with a partnership, and that she wanted to grow and change, including having a normal uncluttered household, a more normal schedule, and reducing the monthly visits back East. I had low expectations, but I wanted to give her the opportunity. None of it worked, as expected. She is the same as she was. Why, you ask? I dunno. I have never met a person who seems to be so out-of-norm on so many things that I (and everyone I know) take for granted. I don't know why she can't live the "normal" lifestyle, but I guess that 20 years of conditioning is hard to undo. Then again, she said that she only started the visits back East and the clutter buildup in the past two years, so who knows what's up.


I am not understanding the last part, could you clarify?

AGG

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I do more then you think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


... you ever dated... Huh, AGG...

I see some contradictions here, btw...


I understand (and knew this too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) and of course you are right to wait and see...


I wonder if you were quite clear though...


You give excellent advice to people here... for you can 'see' more if watching 'from outside'...
When I don't know what and how to do something, it helps me to read my own words as someone else wrote them, 'without emotions' that give me 'indistinct picture' as much as I usually think I can see it without them influencing me...


PS: (IMHO) I think you are not ready yet, to decide either way... looks like it's June again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...
And that's another reason to tell her honestly all of this, for time is passing so quickly and it is not on her side... (neither yours, but that's your choice you have all rights to make for yourself)...

Hi DW...

I won't take up too much space, sorry AGG.

My plate has been full with home things.
I really seem to be content being me these days. Not worried about meeting anyone or dating.
I've read the board, but I just feel out of the loop these days.

Hope all is well for you DW!
Be the best version of yourself!

K!

You are losing me, B2M... what is the "huh" for?


OK, I'm all ears <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Oh, I was smart enough to not say much, and to let HER do the talking of what she wanted to change. And she was quite clear: "clear up my clutter, shift my schedule to be like most people, not go back to see my extended family as often". Yes, I know we can punch holes in each one ("what is 'normal'?", "how 'often' is 'not as often'?", etc), but it was quite clear to me and her what she meant. Regardless, it is not that she hasn't made the changes she promised, it's more that I don't think she is the kind of person I would be happy being married to and sharing my life fully with - and it is not a matter of one or two small changes.


You are right. Unlike some of my previous relationships, I am still enjoying my interactions with G. So there is little in this current situation that bothers me - it mostly bothers me when I picture us being married and living together day after day - otherwise, I can ignore a lot of it. So, the problem is, in the present, I like seeing and dating G - but I also have little hope for any future beyond dating. If that is all she wanted too, we might be fine, but I know she wants marriage. So yes, this is hard to break off, because in a way it would be ending something not because it is bad, but because it is not going to go to where she wants it to go, which does not feel right.

But, you are right, I need to tell her my thoughts and feelings, and then we can see what to do with it all.

AGG

What I meant is - did you tell her you could not get married if all of that remain the same... ('wrap' it in any different words to sound more proper and nicer if you need, but that's the essence of "being clear" here..)


That's what you said too. Maybe she changed her mind too, and will settle for 'companionship' just not to lose you and special moments with you.


Is she=you (too)?