So many things I would like to get advice about, but I'll try to keep it to two main issues: (1) triggers from being a BS & suriving a rather cruel WH; and (2) working to create a good relationship and keep it progressing.

(1) For background, I went to IC to help me deal with the A/WH. After the D, I continued IC and took plenty of time to heal before I felt ready to date. Since then, I've dated a bit, some longer than others. I work a lot so I didn't date around, plus I want to date quality guys. Sorta gave up on the idea of meeting anyone in the next 10 years, but then met a great guy. We've been dating regularly since then and now we are "exclusive."

Here's the problem: I'm triggering left & right about infidelity. We have discussed trust & honesty & fidelity more than once, and the conversations go well. However, inside I'm severely triggered about things -- maybe I sense he is pulling away, or less affectionate, or a little more cranky, or a strange phone call, or a comment his friend makes to me, or something his does -- it's setting off alarms. I didn't feel so triggered with other guys I dated since the D, even if I did notice the triggers. Perhaps it's because this is the first guy I REALLY like since my ex. Also, it could be because he is moving back to Europe in June and I'm anticipating that rejection feeling. We've talked about -- and his words & actions are good -- so I may be overreacting, or I may be sensing something based on prior experience. Has anyone else had to deal with this?

(2) I can live a relatively happy life as a single person. However, I admit that I would like a good, fulfilling relationship. So, here I am, several months into a new and good relationship. Things are going well (except for my own personal triggers) and I WANT to move this relationship forward, yet I feel at a loss as to how to do that. I'm not sure how I ever got to that point with my ex - it seems so young & hapless looking back. If I met my ex now, I don't think I would date him. Instead, I would want to date the guy I'm with, except I'm not sure how to help the relationship develop. I feel stupid just asking this question, but one thing that I have learned from MBuilders is that we don't all have natural abilities to create good relationships and some of us have to learn relationship techniques. So, how do I help a relationship progress?

Thanks

Nev, are you sure it's really triggers and insecurity and not your intuition? Don't ignore or rationalize your alarms. I would hate for you to chalk it up to triggers and that not really be the case. Keep alert.

If his actions are good, and you are still "alarming", then I say maybe you haven't quite healed yet. How long have you all been dating? It takes time to build trust. More so for us BS.

As for moving the relationship forward, I'm a bit confused....he's moving to Europe, yet you want to move it forward? Will you be going also, or will this be a LDR?

Ditto what DW said - if you haven't had these "triggers" with other guys you dated, and you do now, it is likely your gut telling you something, rather than a "trigger" - never ignore your gut. Also, wassup with him moving to Europe - how do you plan to "move forward" with you here and him in Europe?

AGG

Thanks for the answers. I felt a bit foolish asking these things.

Triggers -
I've noticed them at times with other guys I've dated. However, either I didn't notice as many or didn't get as upset about them because I wasn't as interested in those other guys. Honestly, there are times when I know it was a false alarm, and times when I think the trigger is valid. My conclusion goes back & forth.

Another thing that may be a factor...when we first started dating, we were not "exclusive," which was fine because I prefer to move slow. Perhaps knowing that he was dating others at that time is adding to my triggers. Logically, I know it was acceptable and good to go slow, but emotionally it feels very uncomfortable & actually hurts a little.

As far as getting over the BS triggers - is it really possible to not be sensitive to those things again? If so, please tell me how. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Moving/Europe -
Well, his job may require him to move back home around mid-summer, or it may be another 12 months. Also, we both may end up in London (due to our jobs) by the end of the summer. Even if his job moves him back home and I move to London, we would only be an hour apart. It is all up in the air at this point.

When the issue first arose (unexpectedly for each of us), it was too early to make any decisions - especially since we may both still be here for the next 12 months. So, we decided to put that issue aside, not let it pressure us, and continue getting to know each other. I realize we are approaching a time when we need to discuss whether to continue dating and whether to make efforts to stay closer to each other and see what happens. In an ideal world, that decision would not arise until we've had more time to date, but I guess we're not so lucky.

I no longer believe in things like: "if it's meant to be, it will work out." I've learned from my whole BS-experience that the things you do, and don't do, are what makes a relationship, not things like "fate." Maybe "fate" brings two people together, but things will not "work out" unless they both make the effort and treat each other right. I'm also not a big fan of LDR, as I think it's difficult to meet ENs, especially when we both have RC & affection as top needs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So, I realize the prognosis is not good given the job situations, and yet neither one of us wants to just throw it away. If he moves & I stay, then it's probably over. I also don't think he is willing to change jobs given that it's his dream job. I would be willing, but I would need to have things progress more before making such a change.

ok, any thoughts/advice are appreicated - thanks

neverthesame,
Can you be more specific about this? What forward movement would you like to see? What would progress look like to you?

good questions Curious...

I would say that forward progress IN GENERAL would mean having more time together to deepen the relationship and see how we feel about the future. I don't expect either of us to be willing/able to make a permanent commitment by mid-summer, but I would like us to be at the point where we see a potential future for "us" and we are willing to clear away obstacles (long distance) and give that potential a chance.

Progress on more specific terms is harder for me to define. Guess I would say...
1. continuing to get to know each other...our views, values, habits, etc
2. see how we react to different situations/things/each other (we have done a good job of this, in general)
3. if 1 & 2 continue to go well, then our feelings would naturally deepen

Seems to me the above stuff, whether general or specific, takes TIME. While we seem to be great together (we meet each other's ENs very well and no LBusting), I'm not sure we have enough time to build the relationship before one of us may move far away. I'm not sure how fast the Love Bank fills up for the average person - anyone know the answer?

So, I'm not sure what to do between now & mid-summer to either (1) know that we should invest more time or (2) know that we are not throwing away a great relationship by NOT investing more time. As I said before, I don't believe things just "work out" if they are meant to work out. I believe that you can ruin a good relationship if you don't take care of it, and I think that fits in with Harleys advice on 15 hours, ENs, etc.

thoughts? advice? wisdom?

I'm curious, how long have you been dating this guy so far?

AGGuy - 5 months since we first met, dating regularly from day 1, but not "exclusive" right away (as discussed above). That's not long, I realize. However, we easily meet each other's ENs (even down to same RC sports), no LBing, etc, etc. It's been great so far and I would really like more time to see what happens instead of just tossing it aside for reasons not directly related to the relationship (i.e., a job transfer). I appreciate your comments/thoughts...

Hmmm, it's a toughie. Five months is long enough to get attached, but is it enough to start chasing each other around the world. Kinda stinks, doesn't it?

I guess at the risk of stealing Wiftty's mantra, what about not worrying about where things might go come summer, and just continue getting to know him one day at a time? Does it have to be all or nothing right now? I know it's harder than I am making it sound, as it is frustrating becoming more and more invested if you see a closed door on the horizon, but you never know - a door that looks closed today, might open tomorrow.

I'd say if things are going well, if you enjoy his company, then enjoy his company - don't obsess about the future. Now, if I could only follow my own advice....

AGG

LOL!

AGG, next time i am in Orange/LA, i will make dinner arrangements. Last time i was there, I ate at a restaraunt over the Kodiak theater, wasn't the best and expensive, but the waitress put on a great "I am an actress in waiting routine."

wiftty

Nev ~ Are you the type of person who really hates to invest a lot of time/energy/emotions in someone without a pretty sure bet of it working out?

Hi HF, Hope you are well. To answer you question, no. Perhaps I should be, though, as you'll see from my update...

Update: Well, a friend of mine passed away in a car accident three days ago. My boyfriend comforted me & we each expressed appreciation of each other, how we were glad we met, etc. The next day he asked what I needed from him and he would give it. All super sweet & loving.

Then last night he breaks up with me. He said he knows it's bad timing (I'll say!). His reasons are that (1) he has been burned in the past with people moving during relationships and can't go through that again; (2) he doesn't believe long-distance relationships work for him for very long; (3) he is moving back home to his friends & family and away from me, he feels sad about leaving me, but feels like he should be really heartbroken and because he isn't he now doubts our future (after only 5 months I think that level of feeling is unrealistic, but that's just me); and (4) something about him saying that the decision to move should be mutual, but in this case it's going to be 100% his decision because he is moving first(I did not get this at all).

He went back & forth a lot -- "I don't know" and "I don't want to stop dating you, you mean so much to me" and "let's talk about this tomorrow" and then back to the break-up. I understand that he is confused & torn about moving - I am too - but I didn't want to just throw things away ahead of time when they were going so well. I mostly just listened, and handled it fairly well (not entirely). I tried to understand how he felt, I tried to express my feelings. I told him that I wouldn't expect someone to be "totally in love" after 5 months of dating, that I would also feel drawn to my family & friends, but that I wanted to see how we felt after another month or two instead of just throwing it away for nothing or due to unrealistic expectations. I also said that he was free to think otherwise and us throw it away if that's what he wanted. The only bad thing I said was that I thought his timing was shocking - actually, a bit unbelievable, especially given my friend's death & how sweet & loving he was just two days prior.

This is the 2nd time this has happened -- moving, break-up and all. I feel so incredibly unlovable. Ok, I'm likable, and these guys enjoy my company and are attracted to me, but feel like I'm not "in" lovable. I am crushed and feel so hopeless. This is not the first time that a guy has said I'm everything they want, but they just didn't fall in love. So, I'm meting their ENs and not love busting, then why am I so unlovable.

We are supposed to talk today. Any advice on how to handle that would be appreciated !! I feel like I should just listen, repeat, understand and say "ok." Then get used to the fact that we will probably never talk again. I am so shocked & heartbroken.

Hi nev,

I'm sorry for what you are going through.I haven't yet jumped into the fray of the dating world.

However,I also think the timing was bad to break up with you.All within a few days,mixed messages.

Well,one thing I know is that I am not going to be too hard on myself when things go south,and I am sure I will have my share of that.After reading this board for years,and even if it's only a cross section of society out there,it seems to me that people are very fickle.One day they love you,the next they are moving on for some reason.They aren't honest and their feelings,wants,needs change on a weekly if not daily basis based on who knows what truths.

Which is why I will take a long time to ever be in love with anyone because it will take a long time to let myself open up again unitl I feel it's safe and there is reason to.Now I may not be able to direct my life that way completely but I am going to try.It's worked for me in the past.It has saved me a lot of heartache.

The whole dating scene I think has changed dramatically.Just from what I hear from friends and here,etc.It's so much more complcated and tricky.What happened to easy going and natural? I think there are a ton more expectations placed on relationships now then ever before.And with the instant gratification world we live in,it's next to impossible to be what people want.

You are not unloveable nev.That is not a fair assessment of yourself.We all have the capacity to love and be loved.It's not dependent upon some guys fickle nature.If all he said came out after a few weeks of dating,sure,he may be justified.But after 5 months,well,by then I would think you know what your goals in life are and where you see yourself headed:

1) Most everyone has been burned before.If he's so afraid of that then he should not be dating.

2) LDR's are tough and I wouldn't do it either but that ties into #3

3) he's not heartbroken he's moving away but he made that decision for himself so that is where he is at.He doesn't feel a need to stay for you.Understandable he wants to be near family but then you know where you stand.

If he does call today,I would just be open to all possibilities.If it doesn't work out that he stays then cest la vie right? I am sure it will be painful but you can't force something into being anymore than he could.Let it go.You sound more involved than he may have been and he's not staying for you,to see how things could progress.Unless that changes then the writing was on the wall.Sorry.jmo

My Feeler side would say "Wow, what a jerk - breaking up with you right when you need him the most. How can you possibly cope with this break-up while in the midst of mourning your friend's passing?"

My Thinker side would say "Yeah, what he says makes sense. LDRs, especially across the ocean, are an uphill battle. Better that you found out that he is the quitter type now rather than later".

I didn't realize that his family and friends are back there. That changes things. So when he moves, he is "coming home". It feels safe to him. He probably knows his way around that country much better than here, the possibilities are endless (if you get my drift). So it's probably easy for him to bail and not maintain an LDR, knowing that he'll be fine there, surrounded by friends and family.

As for the "I don't know", "I'm confused", sure - he is somewhat attached to you, and is not sure he wants to let it go. But he is not willing to make the investment either. So no doubt he'll call and talk, but it sounds like his mind is made up regarding the future - the only question is will he be gaming for companionship until he leaves. Your call.

As far as being unlovable, that's an icky feeling for sure, BTDT. It's a normal reaction to being dumped. You sound to me like a wonderful, thoughtful, and genuine woman, so I doubt that you are unlovable - just haven't found your prince yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Look at it this way - for every Mr. Wrong you meet, you are one step closer to meeting Mr. Right, right?

AGG

I'm also not into ldrs, but we might have ended up in the same city within a few months of his leaving. Now we will be here for two+ months and not even date. I don't understand why he throws it away so easy. Really don't get how he can be so loving & say such things, then two days later break up. I'm so confused and devastated. What should I do and say when we talk?

What do you want to talk to him about?

It sounds painful enough.

Nev, the man is an idiot. Emotionally mature people don't tell the person he/she is every thing they want, and then break up with them. He knew he was leaving. This isn't something that just came to him.

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. My condolences.

GG - when this happened, he was waivering back & forth about breaking up now, or not. We agreed to think about it and talk the next night (which was last night). I decided I needed more time to think about it all, so I told him I couldn't talk until Wednesday night.

I'm expecting him to say he's thought about it and decided that breaking up now is best. I need certainty on where we stand, instead of this waffling back & forth thing. I would also like to express how I feel about it all & how he handled it, but not sure I will at this point in time (or ever).

Yeah...the loving words & actions one day (and months prior), followed by a break-up the next day (at the worst time) is extremely confusing. My friend (a psychologist) said he must have been really hurt by those prior failed relationships that involved someone moving then an LDR, and that he is acting out of fear of that pain again. So, a self-defense reaction, which explains drawing close then pushing me away. BTW, I'm not making excuses for him, because how he did things was wrong, but it does help to recognize that this is about his past pain/fear not about me.

Anyway, I will admit that I'm extremely hurt. I was prepared for the possibility that things might not work out due to career moves & long distance, but I didn't expect this so soon or in such a heartless way.

I feel like my heart has been broken so many times that there are no pieces left.

Don't let him. Why does it get to be his decision? Take the decision making power away from him. Email him and tell him that his behavior is unacceptable, and that you cannot be in a relationship with a man who is so thoughtless in your time of need and who does not value you for the priceless gem that you are.

Nev,

I'm sorry for your pain.I can hear that all this is painful for you and it's totally understandable why.One heartbreak is enough for anyone,let alone several.

I see the psychologists POV however I do think there was more to it all.IMO it seems as though he was making plans in his own head and finally decided what to do and you were "just" collateral damage.People who are really serious about a relationship usually,or should,take into account the other's feelings.In this case,he already made up his mind to move and the tough part was breaking it off.

I mean,is this guy always going to end things with each partner for fear of failure? He will never have a long lasting,committed realtionship,let alone marriage,this way.You are right though that it is about him and how he deals than about you.

Personally,I am always for honesty which in your case would mean expressing how hurt you are.That way you may have some,"closure" .I hate that word but I guess it applies.

curious -- good point. It is not just his decision. I need to think about what I want, which is why I said I couldn't talk until Wednesday. However, I would like for us to talk in person. I don't like the idea of an email and I don't want things to end on a bitter note.

thoughts?

If I were in your shoes, I couldn't be anything but bitter about the ending. The guy is a smuck. (SOrry, but he is.) Waiting a week or two wouldn't have hurt him. And this "I'm not sure..." THat's even worse than I thought.

I think Nev, you're asking the wrong question. The question is not whether someone can be in love with you... It's why do you pick guys who lack some sort of something.

You need to have your relationship picker tuned up, that's all.

Oh, and does anyone want to take best that if Nev drops him instead of letting him break up with her, this guy will come crawling back inside of 4 weeks? He'll want drinks to discuss things. Or send an email.

Are you waffling? Do you know what you want? What is it - be together or break up? If you want to stay together ask him directly - yes or no. If he says "yes", then great. "No" or waffling both mean "no". In other words, Nev, you do can have certainty, but you cannot make him give you a "yes" answer. But you are giving him far too much power here by asking him to guide the relationship (or its end).


This is why I dislike psychology, and this is total baloney. Classic Twinkie defense. Nev, the guy has moved on, he is breaking up with you, period. NO sense rationalizing or explaining the why's behind it, I think it's much simpler than the whole "he is acting out of fear". I bet he is quite looking forward to moving back to his family and friends, and checking out the pastures there. I am sure he thinks that you were fun, but he is done with you. It is quite clear.

I know this all sucks to pieces, but I agree with GG - you need to cut this guy off (he WILL be back, guaranteed), and move on.

AGG

I think you can word an email to truthfully state your boundary without being bitter. I really don't see any benefit in meeting in person. If you meet in person, you're still waiting to hear what he decided. My recommendation is to pre-empt his decision with your own. No need to be angry or bitter about it. Just honest and unambiguous.

ouch, ouch and ouch

ok...not trying to get him to "yes" in any way.

don't understand comment about giving him power over the end...ok, I could officially end things first, is that what you mean? ...but I have to respect the fact that he may want to end things, and I don't see that as "giving power" -- what am I missing?

"it is quite clear" ...ok, maybe this is just a standard "I don't want to date you anymore" break-up, but I have trouble reconciling that with the things he said & did the months before & the love/admiration/etc he expressed just two days prior ...so, what do you see? I do want to understand

but I get your point (I think) that regardless of motivation, we're breaking up -- is that what you meant?

I will definitely "cut him off" meaning that I will NOT be calling or texting him after we are officially broken up. Ok, so the advice is to say the official break-up first, then no contact. am I right?

neverthesame,

Here's why I'm saying you need to take back your power:


Both of you have accepted that the decision to move forward with the relationship or not is his and his alone. You're in, if he'll have you. And I hate to see you in that position. I'm trying to find a way for you to return to a position of strength by taking the decision out of his hands. And I think you have honorable grounds for doing so: The behavior you've just described is simply not ethical.

And so to me, the best solution is for you to make it YOUR decision and not his. By the way, that doesn't need to mean no contact, as long as you establish the specific terms under which you would engage in contact again.

Sorry, don't mean to be hurtful, just direct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


No. I don't mean that you should dump him before he dumps you as a power trip, that'd be childish <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


I am worried that you are giving him the power, not the power to dump you (everyone always has that power), but the power to string you along on his terms. Like curious said, you are "in", and he gets to dictate the terms. He should not have such power. It reminds me eerily of how most of our ex's were "confused" and fence sitting, it'd be too much of a trigger for me. Especially in a dating relationship, there is no need for such confusion.

I would prefer for you to tell him to decide, once and for all, if he wants to continue a relationship with you. Not a promise of a "future", but a relationship nonetheless. "Confused", "don't know", etc, are not normal terms in a healthy relationship. So I would hold my head up high and say "OK, buster, are you in or out?". It's a bit like being pregnant, either you is or you isn't. Don't let him string along with his confusion. Does this help at all? Believe me, you will be infinitely more attractive to him if you say "I see that you are not interested in continuing this relationship; I am disappointed but I accept your decision, take care and good luck" than if you get sucked into the on/off cycle.


I can't get into his head, but he sounds to me like he made up his mind about the longterm (or lack thereof), and all he is confused about now is if he wants a clean break or to enjoy your company until he leaves.


That's how it sounds to me, yes.


I dunno. Some people like to play friends after breakups, I am not one of them. I always prefer more or less no contact.

AGG

Curious -- thanks for the clarification. Sometimes another post sneaks in while I'm typing mine, so didn't mean to disregard your other post.

I do appreciate all the advice and support, and I NEED it right now. I'm am so crushed by the loss of my friend and now this break-up that I feel like my heart is smashed to dust and is basically gone.

Curious, I do want to meet in person. Our relationship hasn't gone on for years, and he may just be done with me and wanting to date others as AGG suggests, but while our relationship lasted...we met each other's friends and families and now have some mutual friends, we traveled to 2 different continents and took 3 trips, we said we would always be in touch no matter where we lived and we talked about finding a way to live in the same city, etc. So, it won't feel right to me to break-up by email. Phone doesn't do it for me either.

However, I can pre-empt his decision as you say and take back some power.

How does this sound to everyone, as a general outline?
--tell him that I've had some time to think about things said Saturday and everything going on in our lives
--that I understand we are each facing some serious decisions about jobs & careers, where to live, and I understand he is uncertain about those things (he did say this, only he also included "us" and mentioned he cannot do LDR, blah, blah)
--that because we were so good together and because we may end up in the same city, I ORIGINALLY wanted to let the relationship grow while he was still here, but now I think we should stop being boyfriend/girlfriend
--that I would like us to keep in touch and to hear about his upcoming exam, his job and things like that; and that I will tell him about my job, when I break 90 on the golf course and about my knee and being able to ski again

Then that's it--no lingering, no complaining, no criticizing, just end it with calm dignity, then say I have to be somewhere & go with a smile.

Comments? Thoughts? I cannot tell you guys how much I appreciate your time & advice. I'm going through a lot right now.

Oh, and the one boundary I have...I will not talk with him about my friend who passed on. If he does ask about her, I will say....thanks for asking...I was impressed & appreciated how loving he was at first, but just two days later I felt like he was extremely insensitive about it. As a result, I will not talk about Annie with him.

Eeeks. My name is Annie. Again, my condolences on your loss.

I like your plan if you can be friendly without him hurting you by not being more. It's the waffling that so offends me, combined with the sense that he's seen this issue coming for a while. It wasn't urgent until you needed him emotionally.

I would not try to preempt him. I'd let him talk, and I'd listen carefully. I'd listen for the bottom line. If he starts up with the "dunno", "confused", then I'd step in and ask for a yes/no. Let him act like a grown up and make a decision, no matter how hard. But don't let him waffle, tell him you have no time or energy for that crap.

I am very sorry about your friend's passing, my condolences.

AGG

If I were in your shoes I might try this: Decide before Wednesday exactly what you want. If it's to walk away from this relationship call him & tell him that. Tell him you've given his words & behavior some thought & you agree, the relationship can't work. End, no more. Then do the hard work of letting it go.

If you decide you want to discuss his waffling some more, though honestly, I can't see anything but pain coming from this, see him Wednesday, but like AGG said, don't get sucked into a waiting situation where you give him this extra bit of time together while he decides the relationship can't work.

Let him miss you while he's still here but without you.

Thanks everyone for the condolences. I cried my eyes out for three days and now I'm just numb. I think I'm in the denial stage of grief.

AGG - your prior post snuck in before mine. He did say he was torn about us, but then seemed to be leaning towards break-up because he sees it as inevitable...(He's moving for at least a few months, so that means a LDR at best, he thinks LDRs never work and views them as "wasted time," so he we'll break up anyway, so we might as well do it early than later and save time/hurt, etc). ALSO, the fact that he doesn't feel enough pull towards me to change jobs/home now & avoid the LDR situation. (Ok, that hurts, but I also think it's an unrealistic standard given that we haven't been dating 2 years like his past relationships that went into LDRs and given that he is moving "home", but that's his view)

AGG, at the time this happened, I did ask for a definite answer..."If you don't want to date me anymore, then just say so now. I have so much on my mind with Annie that I just want to know NOW." At first he repeated the stuff about LDRs, being uncertain, blah, blah, but then he just kept saying let's talk tomorrow (Sunday). (yet the answer seemed clear)

I did not cry, plead, or whatever. I said it's only been 4+ months so another 2 months would give us a more definite answer, that I wouldn't just throw it away early, but if he wanted to throw it away early that was his choice. In hindsight, that may have seemed like pressure/attempt to convince to him.

GGables - I can be friendly..it will hurt, but I am strong. See above paragraphs on how I dealt with this "in the moment" on Saturday. Confusing thing is that he was really there for me emotionally for 2 days - I was so impressed - then he did a 180. This move issue wasn't definite until recently,and he may change jobs after a few months.

OK, so I'm a little confused about pre-empting vs. listening for his answer. Thought pre-empting and "letting the cage door open" might be good to help me regain respect/my pride, especially since I think he isn't appreciating what we have and he now thinks I'm more into him than he is into me. On the other hand, I want to listen and really understand how he's feeling - we may end up in the same city and I don't want to burn a bridge yet. Maybe I can do both? So, listen & ask questions, then say based on that, I think we shouldn't date for now, but want to keep in touch, blah, blah. Thoughts? AGG, why do you advocate just listening if you think he is already decided?

Thanks everyone -- I feel like I should bake this group a huge batch of cookies or send wine or something!

And that is understandable, and makes his timing all the more crappy.


My honest opinion is that there is something else at play. I don't know what, but it's not this. This (LDR) is not holding water for me. He is only moving away for a few months? Nev, I'll be very honest with you - if I had a five month relationship under my belt with someone I was crazy about, I would not, NOT, accept a job move, or I would make sure that I'd find a way to stay in touch, especially if it's only for a few months, or I'd be ecstatic that you might move there a few months after me.

No, it sounds to me like he is not happy with something in the relationship. He probably won't tell you anyway, so I wouldn't kill myself trying to find out. But I'll give you an example - when I broke up with G, after 8 months, it seemed like a total shock to her. No question that I gave her many warning shots about my concerns, but I know that to her, we were a match made in heaven. But finally, I just realized that it was not going to work. Well, like I said, she was shocked and felt blindsided. She felt that all my concerns were just minor things, not things to break up over. But to me, there was no way for it to work.

Your BF sounds similar - like he has been pondering this for a while, and finally decided to cut bait. Even if he tried to give you his reaosns, they would probably make no sense to you.

Anyway, I sense that there is something at play other than his move. Has he ever been married? Does he have a history of long relationships, or short ones?



Well, he does not seem like he decided - "he repeated the stuff about LDRs, being uncertain, blah, blah, but then he just kept saying let's talk tomorrow (Sunday)."

Did he since say that it's over? If so, I'd say you're done.


Great idea! Count me in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Nams, in all honesty, I wanted us to continue up to his move was near, then discuss, with possibility of LDR for just the 2-3 months following the move until he knew for sure where he would be and when (since he may end up back here or us both in London). Then when he had more info, discuss again whether to continue or not. I'm afraid that may not be an option anymore in his mind.

I do want to meet in person - the phone convo's are not our forte (esp. with his strong accent), but in person we have great communication and I understand everything he says. It would feel like another death to just never see him again, although I realize that may happen even after the talk.

I agree though - no more waffling. Just not sure about the pre-emption vs. the listening. Votes?

Nams -- you said "Let him miss you while he's still here but without you." --- I agree!! If we broke up right before he left, he would be distracted with moving/friends/family/etc and his birthday just days after he leaves. (Although it has occurred to me that this gives him a chance to get over me before the move and to "hit the ground running" when he's back home.)

If you asked me last Wed, Thurs or Friday, I would have said he's going to miss me like crazy!! After Saturday, I'm not so sure he will miss me at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

AGG - I must be a slooow typist!

Ok, you may be right. I can tell you that just 4 weeks ago I asked him if there was anything he wished he could change about me, etc and I asked about meeting his needs (in regular conversation, not MB lingo). He said he wouldn't change a thing and felt completely happy - and he said that before. The only things I can think of are:
(1) his friend who was just here mentioned that he fears it is too good and doubts it's possible to be such a good match. This is similar to something he said to me...are you going to change in 6 months?

(2) his friend also said that he is really tied to "home" and will probably end up there, and that he would need someone who can live there (Oslo) (we talked about London, or NY, not Oslo, but London is close)

(3) he thinks highly of me, is very attracted to me, admires me, etc, etc (confirmed by his friend). However, I don't think he is feeling "in love" with me yet, so he thinks he may never feel that way or at least thinks that he should feel that way in order to include me as a factor in his decisions about the future/job/move/home/etc.

That may be the bottom line - he is not in love, and time is up, so that's it. Or perhaps it's a combo of the above...meaning he doesn't trust it to be so good, and he sees it as doomed given the move, so he can't/won't fall in love. Or maybe he would never fall in love with me for some reason, despite the fact that we meet each other's ENs in spades, don't love bust and have been very attracted to each other since day 1. Maybe his life is so full/busy that my LBank contributions don't have as big of an impact as it would on someone needy. (I often think that the needier/more deprived a person, the more susceptible they are to LBank deposits and affairs.)

He did not say since then that it's over, but I feel strongly that was where he was headed.

ok, does that info affect your analysis?

That's OK, I'm a slooow reader...


Well, if he was honest, then this change is weird, to say the least. Has your friend's passing affected him in any way (other than consoling you)? Has anything else transpired that could change his feelings?


Sigh; with friends like this... Anyway, this sounds highly immature; most people do not end relationships because they are "too good to be true". My BS meter is way off scale.


Bingo. I think this is the root of the issue. I already suspected this, that he is longing for "home". And guess what? I get the feeling that you are not wanted there. Like you were a nice distraction, but now it's time to go home to mama and marry a nice Norwegian girl.


Ah, the old "I don't feel in love" line. Something is rotten in Denmark, or Norway. If he is not feeling in love, you ain't meeting his needs. Maybe he does not know what they are. Maybe you don't. But it ain't adding up.


Maybe. Tell me, how long was he here (in the States) before you met him? I cannot help the sinking feeling that he came to a big new country, found a great girl, had a nice "fling" (I don't mean it in a disparaging sense), but now the vacation is over, time to go home to reality. Close?


Well, tell him to tell you for sure. This should not be a mystery.

I still see red flags all over the place, my gut is screaming at me that something is way off here, and you are getting a bunch of BS answers.

AGG

So on average, how long does it take to fall in love? I haven't fallen in love before 6-8 mos. Just 4 mos, and really 3 given the holidays when we first met, doesn't seem long enough to be in love. So average time is ??

Nev, my own suspicions about what happened closely follows your psychologist friend's. The timing sucked, and the insensitivity sucked more, but I doubt that either was mere coincidence. Rather, the reality of what would be involved in a deeply committed and intimate relationship "hit home" for him under the circumstances, and a panic reaction resulted in which self-preservation became his only focus.

That's not very mature, of course, but to me it also suggests that he took his expressions of love and interest quite seriously. If he didn't take them seriously, then I don't see any cause for panic on his part. So...he's scared and confused, and he behaved insensitively, but is not necessarily an unworthy guy from what (very) little I can see.

The advice to decide what boundaries you want and need is good and sufficient, I think. Giving it more time, or transitioning to a friendship role, or calling it quits...any of these options is reasonable, as long as you take ownership of your own responsibility in the decision.

The person who is less certain about a relationship is always the one who dictates the relationship. That's just the way it is, and power struggles have nothing to do with it. It is no inherent reflection on the dignity of the one who is more certain if he or she chooses to be patient - even if the eventual result turns out to be rejection. In fact, to my mind, there is no great dignity in running away out of fear of the possibility of rejection, or because anything less than instant gratification isn't deemed good enough.

But neither is there any great honor in hanging onto something which is holding you back. Only you can determine what your choices mean for you.

I'm sitting here kind of swearing to myself because of how similar this sounds to my own situation. Except for the bit about being "very attracted to each other since day 1" (it took a few weeks for her to start feeling sparks, and her attraction to me was never extremely strong), the part about there being nothing about me to change (yeah, I could stand to gain a few pounds, I happen to agree with her there), and the fact that there are no LDR issues, the concerns you voice - on both sides - are uncannily familiar.

I want answers too.

Average time is...irrelevant.

Not only does it seem to differ for different people and different relationships, but statistics are no doubt skewed by the fact that people in our culture tend to give up on a relationship quite soon.

AGG - I'm willing to admit that what I thought we had was just an illusion and he lied to me in words & actions. Obviously, something is wrong in order for him to end it. That being said, I really don't think he was just "acting" the whole time. I agree though - it just doesn't add up and I may never get the real answers.

I also agree that the "home" factor is a big one. I sorta took away the understanding that his feelings for home outweigh his feelings for me at this point (or at least that he isn't "as torn up" about leaving me as he "thinks he should be"), so that's it.

To answer your questions:
--He was here for 1.5 years before we met.

--It is not certain whether he will move back here. This is one of the things he is torn about -- where to live in the long-run. It also depends on his job. His friend thought he would end up deciding to stay in Oslo.

--Am I welcome in Olso? We talked about me visiting for his birthday party (which is 2 weeks after he leaves), and also to go hiking and show me the country, etc. His friends also talked about seeing me again when I visit. Who knows...

***Question: I asked this above, but I have to say that I would not expect someone to be in love after 4 months. I realize everyone is different and every situation is different, and it doesn't matter if HE thinks he should be madly in love and willing to give up "home" after 4 months. However, I want to know...on average, how long do people take to fall in love if all the right conditions are there? My guy friends all say 6-8 months, except one said 9-12. Agree? Disagree?

So, I am leaving him completely alone until we talk Wed night. Giving him the gift of missing me, if that's even possible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'll ask that we talk in person, and I'll listen and ask questions to understand what he is thinking/feeling.

I just can't comprehend that after our time together, even just our recent text messages, that he doesn't miss me...and yet I'm telling myself that he probably doesn't miss me. He may even be relieved. I just don't get it.

Nev, maybe he didn't fall in love with you because he knew he was going back home. He wasn't emotionally available for some reason. He let you in just so far. It's not you.

So, I think we've all come to a concensus here: You are far, far out of his league. Too good for him.

GGables, you are so kind to say that. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. Regardless, it seems he wants to end it.

I don't know why he's not "in love" when all the ingredients seemed to there (according to things he & his friends said). Maybe he closed off due to the move, or maybe it's unrealistic to feel that strongly after 4 months (3 months really), or maybe the stress of job/move/exam/etc drowns out those feelings, or maybe he thinks I'm not good enough for him.

anyway...I am shocked & shattered

Dear Nev ~ I'm so very sorry that all of this has come crashing down upon you at this time. As I type this, I'm sitting in a hotel probably not more than 7 or 8 miles away from you in Teterboro, NJ. Wish I could offer more to help you since I'm so close...

But, just wanted to say this: Please be very careful right now as with the TWO grief processes going on that you don't blend & confuse the two.

Meaning? I think if your dear friend Annie had not passed just now, handling Mr. Fickle/Self-centered/He's Just Not That Into You -- would not be nearly so difficult.

I hear you merging the two griefs in your pain-filled words from your heart.

Recommend? I would get this guy outta there ASAP. Then turn to & focus on the REAL grief work you want & need to do. Deal with losing Annie. You will find comfort & strength there - not in dealing with Mr. Selfish.

I'm not calling him selfish cause he wants to break up with you. That's called everyone's choice. No, it's in the way, the timing, the mickey mouse confused, back & forth, emotionally immature manner he's taken. THAT is Selfish!

You're in my prayers my friend,
High Flight

PS: You have my email address if you want to write. I'll even share a phone # if you need someone non-biased to speak with. I think we may have traded them some time back, but I don't have it any more unless I look back through my DayTimer & find it.

Thanks, HF. If you don't mind, I will try to give you a call later.

I feel like I cried my eyes out for 2.5 days and then I reached a state of "calm", or is it denial or exhaustion(?), regarding Annie. Then he talks about breaking up. So, in a way, I feel like I had to deal with Annie first and that was definite, and now I'm dealing with the break-up and that's not yet definite. I did not tell him that I had reached the calm/exhausted/cried out stage yet, so for all he knows, he said those things at a really bad time.

I know I should hate him for being so cruel, but I do feel some empathy that he is dealing with his own stress/confusion/past pain/fears/whatever. Maybe he doesn't handle death well, or it reminded him how much he misses home & family & friends, and he just triggered. I'm trying not to judge.

No one seems to want to answer my question...what is the "average" time the "average" person takes to fall in love when all the ingredients are there? I'm so curious now to see answers on this one.

Hehe, well Gnome did answer, did you notice? His answer was that the "average" is irrelevant, and I agree.

But since you ask, here is my perspective.

First, though, what do you mean "fall in love"? Is it to develop those butterflies, those "wow" feelings, the so-called Infatuation? Because that is what I think of as "falling in love".

If so, it happens pretty quickly for me. A month or two. That is, I meet a great lady, am attracted to her, and as I find more about her, I feel that she and I could be a great thing. So I feel butterflies and excitement, and I feel infatuated and giddy. I know it is nothing but that (INfatuation), and that it will take lots of time to see if this stands the test of time. But in the meantime, yes, I do feel "in love".

Mind you, this has nothing to do with love, not the mature kind, the one that develops with knowing a person more deeply and being comfortable about the relationship. But that I consider to be more "love" than "in love". That latter one probably takes a year or more to arrive at, because you need to really get to know a person, warts and all.

I dunno, does this help at all?

AGG

Yes, I saw GDP's response and I agreed that average is irrelevant. However, my curiousity was not satisfied. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I guess I would define "in love" as beyond just the butterflies and excitement, but not yet "mature love." So butterflies PLUS something more --deep feelings/care/loving feelings PLUS a positive view that it could develop into long-term mature love. Very hard to define.

Most of the people I asked said 6-8months, but I didn't ask them how they defined "in love," so they may have meant just the infatuation stage, or they may have meant a deeper feeling.

HFlight, I'm having trouble accessing my personal email. Sorry about that. Hope all is well with you and thanks for the offer to be a listening ear. I am just ovewhelmed with grief and confusion, but I will find a way through it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

{{{Nev}}} I've begun several replies the last few days and been interrupted... I went through something very similar about 6 months ago and really empathize. My relationship lasted about the same length of time as yours and I was definitely infatuated, shared RC, no LB's, etc. He said I was more like him than anyone he'd ever met and had even suggested that I bring some of my stuff over to his house ~ way too soon for me! He ended it abruptly by disappearing for a week and then showing up to tell me he'd moved his XGF back in. I found out within a month that they were married.

As for your question about the average length to fall in love... I heard later from a mutual friend that he said I'd never told him I loved him... Well, he'd never told me either and I felt 4-5 months was too soon to know if I was anything but infatuated. I told him when he came over to break up with me that I was falling in love with him. He started to say the same, but I stopped him since he was obviously still in love with XGF/now wife. He said we'd always be friends, but I told him that was impossible since he was living with another woman now. He tried several times to contact me, but I haven't seen or spoken to him since.

In hindsight, I can hear the wisdom in everyone's well-intentioned advice and support, but at the time, it almost made me feel worse because I still felt so hurt, rejected, unloveable, unable to sleep or concentrate, and afraid of ever trying again ~ that last one's still questionable...

Yes, you will find a way through it. It takes time... time you use to nurture and care for yourself, and to realize you're already loved by many, many people.

Oh LetsTry - there are so many similarities in your situation, except instead of an XGF, it's his "home" in Norway and he misses family/friends/home. I did feel like I was "falling" in love, but not sure if I was there yet - too soon.

you said "I still felt so hurt, rejected, unloveable, unable to sleep or concentrate, and afraid of ever trying again..." Exactly, and especially the last part. I honestly feel like I don't have any heart left to try again.

So...how did you help get over it? do you compare every potential new guy to that relationship and all the potential it had?

Thanks

Nev ~ To your precise question.

First, you have to make the determination exactly how you define "LOVE"?? Not easy to do.

But it's not just infatuation.
And it's not just attraction.
And it's not only meeting ENs and avoiding LBrs.
And it's, I believe, a gift outside ourselves IF it's real.

I don't know if you are a believer in God or not, but I would strongly point you to 1 Corinthians 13. Read it slowly, carefully over the next week...and I'm confident you'll begin to find your answer.

Here's what I think:

I "fall in love" when I'm confident that it is safe & appropriate to make the choice of love. After I see I have Divine approval to make that ultimate choice. Love is a choice, bottom line. Yes it has all these other aspects such as attraction, affection, EN meeting, LB avoiding, etc. But above all and beyond all, it is A CHOICE!!!

I believe it takes going through the seasons of life to make a led & informed choice. Reasonable time & events have to transpire before that it is safe, sane, appropriate to make the choice to love.

Then, of course real love grows and grows and grows. Just ask my Mom & Dad and any other couple deeply in love after over 50 yrs.

They'll say NOW they really know what love is....

IM me if you need my contact info again. Not pushing, but clearly talking things out with a fellow MBer is not a bad thing to do when you're down.

Nev ~ One last thing I've learned. If you find yourself "comparing" and "afraid to ever try again", that is a sure fire sign that you're supposed to concentrate on you and your healing...NOT another relationship.

We so often ignore our own internal "ANSWERS" that are screaming out the truth of our hearts...and try to medicate ourselves with yet another relationship.

Don't ask me how I know these things.....:(

not to TJ, but HF, how are you doing? dating at all? did it completely end with that one lady friend you had? i think she wanted children or something?? refresh me?

i think of you everytime i book a flight to atlanta! lol i say to myself "where is that darn hf with his plane ride for me? i keep baking these cookies and no hf!"

we need to do an atlanta mb get together so we can all meet and say a big "hey" to eachother!

mlhb

Hey mlhb! OK, I'll join the TJ so Nev can't shoot at both of us haha, not that she would. She's a sweet hearted person.

I thank you for asking. I'm hanging in there. Tons of flying - like last 21 of 28 days. Just have been asked to become the Aviation Dept Manager for my company, which is the top job. The big boss retired, so he nominated me to take his place. Will be a good deal of work, but we've got a pretty good team of folks onboard, so that makes a difference.

Well...the one friend I had did exactly what I was warned here would happen. After 1 1/2 yrs of being close friends (I took things mostly pretty slow due to her very recent divorce when we first met), she decided she couldn't commit to anything more. I felt we needed to take it to the next level of courtship leading to engagement leading to marriage.

I even did the homework & heartwork to get to the point of becoming a "dad again". Yes, she wanted kids & at first I didn't. But eventually, I made peace with being a dad again, and actually started to look forward to it on the whole. So even after all of that, she still backed out - just this past Feb after V'tines day of all times. I knew something was going down when I sent her a fantastic gift of the most beautiful hand crafted "Heart Vase" filled with the finest 18 roses arrangement + a day of pampering/massage/a meal/facial/manicure in the finest spa in her city. And I got belatedly (a guilt gift) of a really cheesy simple V'tine card & she didn't even say she loved me in it. Just a thanks for the friendship....THAT really hurt!!

Our compatibility was extremely high. She told me that she was crazy attracted to me & that she'd wanted to marry me all through the two summers we'd been together. But then...it became a rebound deal for her. She started to resent living 2 hours away & having to drive to see each other. She didn't see any solutions for the problems we would encounter holding on to our two careers, etc.

I had some warning signs. She & her parents called me her ex husbands name by accident for a year and 1/2. Not all the time, but often enough that it showed top of the mind awareness. She still stayed in touch with his family alot. She went out with his mom & dad continually. She & he called each other fairly often even though he remarried the OW, etc.

Emotionally, I'm not far from where Nev is right now. Pretty bummed out in all honesty. But God is still in control & I know that all things work together for ultimate good, some way, some how. So I hold on to that.

I'm likely to be single a long time it's starting to feel like. And I'm making my peace with it.

I'd be honored to meet you & Gekko in ATL some time!! That would be cool.

Best Regards,
High Flight

sorry that things did not work out. considering you were together for 2 years i am surprised she felt it was a rebound. but i would not be comfortable either with someone who was still haning on so tightly to exes family, etc... that part of her life should be well over with by now.

there is def someone there for you. once i completely put my entire life into god's hands, and i mean everything right down to praying daily that my life, my bills, my relationships, my children, be placed in HIS hands, things have run so much more smoothly for me. not perfect, but he never said it would be, just more smoothly. i don't stress anymore knowing it is no longer in my hands. and, once i did that, so many doors have opened to me! i am more involved in church now (and you know what, i give gekko some credit for that one. it is so good to be with a man who is so involved with church, it inspired me to get more involved). i am teaching sunday school for the teens now, i do children's church now on the rotation, and i just sang at easter in church and have been asked to sing every single sunday if i want to! (singing is a big thing for me). so you are right to stay focussed on god. and gekko is an awesome man who stands by me all the time and is there for me. we have a wonderful relationship blooming still. it has been one year since we started talking and in august it will be one year since we started dating exclusively. so i am very happy.

Nev, i am so sorry you are hurting so much. i could not imagine going through a break up in such a way. please don't over think it too much, just pamper yourself and take good care of yourself ok? you will heal and be able to move on. hugs to you.

mlhb

I'm happy for the TJs as my pity party was getting old.

I want to respond to HF and MLHB after I've read their posts more, but I will.

Not to "reverse TJ", but an interesting update. We talked last night. I just resigned myself to it being over & listened to him and focused on understanding. So he explained his reasons and went from...it's over (I just agreed), then he said well he doesn't want it to be over but it MIGHT be best to end now rather than cause more heartache by breaking up later when we're even closer (I agreed, said yes it might be best), and then he said well maybe there is a solution and we can keep dating (I agreed, said maybe, and asked what was his idea for a solution). He said he think about it and we'd talk soon about "us" (it was already after midnight). So, I agreed and now I guess we are back in limbo. I will not contact him, but if he doesn't contact me by Sunday, then I will tell him I've been thinking, and decided it's best we are just friends for now, and that I want to date other people. Thoughts or comments are welcome. Thanks

OK - Reverse TJ is over - I will read the posts above from HF and MLHB more carefully and comment...

Of course. Just as I predicted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. He is in limbo, and wants to keep you there closely by his side. If I were you, I would not go on the ride - it will end in a breakup anyway. That part I have no doubt about. He is not confused about the end result, only whether or not he wants to keep sleeping with you until it's time to leave.


I love the idea of starting to date other people. Don't go along on his rollercoaster. I'd be very careful about "just be friends", unless you mean that more as a nicety than a reality. Trying to stay close friends with someone you were involved with and for whom you still have feelings will only prolong the pain; especially the first time you hear about his new dates.

AGG

Nev ~ he is exhibiting very conflicted behavior. You don't want / need that. I would see two HUGE warning flags about now.

1. How poor his sense of timing was in the breakup initially visa vie the loss of Annie. That speaks volumes about a man's lack of deep internal compassion & self-centeredness.

2. How wishy washy he is. He has no clear direction in mind. Men are supposed to be initiators / leaders in relationships. You cannot follow the lead of someone who can't figure out what step to take next. Seems like he likes "limbo". But Limbo is a killer of relationships! Don't do it.

If he won't lead efficiently & with honor & dignity with high regard to your emotional well-being, then you take over for yourself & do the right thing here for YOU!!

You've got my prayers,
High Flight

At this point, 6 months later, it's easier to see that he really wasn't "the one" for me, which was probably obvious to pretty much everyone else as soon as he moved his XGF back in and then immediately married her. He had a lot of qualities I really liked and it was the first time I'd felt like I was falling in love since I met my XH 25 years ago. I think that's what made it so painful ~ falling in love is a rare and precious experience.

One thing I've noticed is that when I'm feeling good about myself, I don't think about him, but when I'm feeling down and unloveable, then I fall back into loneliness and wondering why he and/or my XH didn't love me. I think the secret is learning to love ourselves unconditionally. Rejection feels like a blow to the ego, but really doesn't mean we're unloveable. The easiest way for me to see this about myself is to look at other people like you and HF and realize that I don't see you as unloveable so the same is probably true for me.

Ok, I'm behind in responding to the prior posts, so here goes...

HFlight - yes, I'm familiar with that verse and consider myself a Christian. I agree that loving - in the positive sense - is a choice, but at some point it is VERY hard for me to guard my heart and stop falling in love. I can choose to act loving, and do positive things, but the choice to STOP loving seems impossible. Or at least I haven't learned how to choose to stop loving, and I very much would like to turn off my heart and my mind ...the memories, the feelings, ugh ...it's too painful! Is there a pill to get rid of this misery? How can he not miss me when we used to talk & text every day? How can he just move on so easily? ugh! I'm devastated and crushed. Of course, it may still work out, but probably not. How can he just forget about me and us so quickly?

HFlight, I am very sorry to hear that the relationship didn't work. If I could tell you how to erase the bad feelings I would! I hope you find the right person for you.

I'm not actually going to date anyone else for a while, if ever. I just thought I should sound strong when I talk with him again. I will try to socialize with my friends, etc., but I have no interest in dating.

AGoodGuy, thanks for your reply. Just one thing though...you said "He is not confused about the end result, only whether or not he wants to keep sleeping with you until it's time to leave." Umm, it wasn't exactly like that. We were crazy attracted to each other, passionate kissing & stuff, etc, etc. ANYWAYS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...he said that he didn't want to stop seeing me but felt it would hurt more in 2 months than it does now. So, I never got the impression that he was contemplating "using" me before he left. Perhaps I am dense, though, and he was just playing games.

For some reason, today is particularly bad. I can hardly read the screen through my tears. Wednesday night we talked, and got along so well, and he said he didn't want it to end and maybe there's a solution, and let's talk soon (he repated that several times), but now it's Friday and I've heard nothing. This will be the first weekend we do not see each other. How can he just turn things off so quickly? Was it just my imagination that we talked and laughed for almost three hours and when I got up to go, he said "don't go, but ok if you must, let's talk soon." Did I imagine that he said he was torn about ending things now, even though he thought we would not live in the same city again? Did I imagine that he said he wanted to talk again soon? Was it all just a lie? Did he spend 4 months just feeding me lies of words & actions? I just do NOT get it. And yet I know...it's basically over. He probably doesn't even miss me. He may even be relieved to be done with our relationship! He is probably already kissing someone else. I was nothing to him, except a fool. It's just so hard to comprehend...

Nev, sweetie, you were not a fool to him. You were definitely more than nothing. But, perhaps, you didn’t mean as much to him as he did to you. I don’t think that is any reflection on you. He probably misses you too, he just not calling.

It’ll get better.

GGables, you are so kind to say that, but I fear you are right... I did not mean that much to him, and so, I really don't think he is missing me at all. In contrast, I feel like no matter how much time goes by, I will always feel some pain from him ending it - a lot like LetSTry describes.

Then there's the thought that we may not even be friends. We promised that we would stay friends no matter what happened with moving, jobs, etc. However, now I think that he doesn't even care or like me enough to be friends. The realization of all this is like a punch in the stomach, heart, head, etc. It's so, incredibly painful. Sorry to be back on the pity party. I am trying to be strong.

You know, I only fell in love once (the ex/WH) and although I wasn't "in love" yet this time. I was definitely falling in love. Losing it and feeling so confused about what went wrong is awful.

The thing that went wrong is you picked a man who was moving across an ocean. I think women put more emphasis on relationships than men do. When one of ours ends, even a bad one, it leaves a hole in our lives. For men, the hole is quickly filled back up by career, sports, whatever. I think that may be why when women leave men, the men are often in shock. Not only that she left, but that there's this big piece missing in the fabric of their lives. Not all men of course. But a lot of men. But, then, look where my so-called love life is. I'm a littl biased right now.

{{{{Nev}}}}

It isn't black and white. He doesn't either love you or feel nothing. My guy tried to tell me he was falling in love with me, too, and I cut him off. I didn't believe him since he'd just told me he'd moved his XGF back in (something I'd already heard from mutual friends).

I know he cared for me based on his behavior while we were dating. But he didn't care for me as much as he cared for XGF or as much as I cared for him. For example, he'd told me he and XGF would always be friends and during our relationship, he was constantly on the phone with her "helping" her to move on. When he broke up with me, he told me we'd always be friends, but when I told him we couldn't talk now that he was living with someone else, he agreed. He did try to call and left one message, but I never answered or returned his call ~ too much MB to let him try to "help" me to move on!

It was a rebound relationship for him. Yours may have been a relationship intended to fill his time while in your city that got more intense than he'd anticipated. Both your guy and mine had choices to make. I came in 2nd in a winner takes all race to the relationship with the history. How could I fault that when it was the choice I wish my XH had made?

Dear Nev ~ I agree with Greengables. YOU are not a fool...not by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Look, great & compassionate people often get hurt by others who have not the same depths of compassion & feeling & sense of what is appropriate. That is this life unfortunately.

Let me just tell you that a good many guys out there just don't know how to lead a relationship - for many, many reasons.

And a significant number of guys are self-centered enough that they will not take care of your feelings. They just do NOT think things through from how it makes you feel.

A lot of guys think girls think / feel like we guys do. They're clueless!! They haven't read, studied or learned the differences in the genders.

Yes there are "players". If this guy wasn't trying to get in your pants Nev, then I would feel pretty comfortable stating he was NOT a player. But that doesn't mean he has it figured out how to take care of your feelings too.

Lastly, there's a lot of us guys who just do not know how to break up. We don't want to hurt girls feelings, so we kind of break up. Sort of hint & sort of let things start to unravel, etc. The ole let em down slow trick. Oft times it isn't intentional & thought through, just a selfish guy who doesn't realize he's hurting the girl worse by not being forthright & honest.

You can recognize this type of guy when he wants limbo & wants to kind of stay in touch, etc.

Finally! It's also entirely possible that this guy really does NOT want to terminate this, but doesn't know how to keep it alive given the challenges ahead of LDR, different countries, etc. That everything you see is actual face value correct!! So when he goes away for awhile, he's just trying to make his best effort to end it, but IS in reality torn in his mind what to do.

But with any of these scenarios, the bottom line is this: We all owe it in our relationships to be forthcoming! Tell the TRUTH of our hearts to those we care about. Don't mislead. Don't lead on. Don't be wishy washy. Don't do limbo.

This isn't an easy thing for fallen human beings who are essentially selfish at their core to do, but it is something we must strive for & grow up into if we expect to have successful, loving relationships with another high quality human being.

I'm glad you know God, Nev. Please keep me in your prayers too. This is a tough time for me as well. I had a hard time getting out of bed 2 days ago. Don't know when I've been this depressed....been since 2004 & my divorce to be exact.

High Flight

Hugs to you Nev and to you High Flight.

Thanks GG. I have learned so much after finding this board and reading Harley's books, but I am always aware that the reasons people find MB are usually filled with pain. And sometimes there's more pain after that. I wish I could erase all that hurt for everyone.

Anyways...an update of sorts, and a new issue that is giving me insight.

Update: Well, he contacted me on Saturday, just three days after our big talk Wednesday where I wasn't sure how we left things. We exchanged several texts back & forth on Saturday and Sunday. (We usually correspond by text and then talk in person when we see each other several times a week.) His contacts were sweet, warm, kind & flirtatious. I took a while to respond each time, sometimes hours, but I was upbeat & witty, and I ended the conversation first. I have NO IDEA whether that means we are just continuing as usual, or what??

My friend, the psych, interprets this as him missing me (especially the contact so soon) and wanting to pick back up where we left off (which supposedly guys can do as if no time has elapsed), but that he is cautious and afraid of rejection or drama (I have never been a drama queen). My guy friend simply says...it never ended...enjoy & just act normal. I don't know. He did make a point of telling me that he was not out all weekend, except for the usual after-work event on Fridays, whereas I had already made plans Saturday.

Any thoughts/interpretations?

New Issue: Well, my ex/WH is back and wants me to give him another chance. It's been years since the divorce/Dday/all that stuff. He claims he's changed, he's done serious work on his issues, he wants a chance to show me, and is just asking for me to spend some time with him so he can prove it to me, etc, etc. Part of me feels a moral/religious pull to give him a chance, even though we divorced due to his adultery & other things. Part of me just really doesn't have any heart left to give anyone. I wonder if trying would make me feel like a WS feels when they decide to give up the OP for the marriage and go through withdrawal--EXCEPT I was not at all a WS since the divorce was final a long time ago.

Anyways...it just odd what life throws at you. Bittersweet. And numbing.

Wow, Nev, when it rains it pours!

Whatever you decide in either case, I'd suggest taking it slow, giving yourself time to decide what you really want. You're in charge here.

Well, I'm not sure it's good rain. I'm going to babble a little...searching for insight and wisdom from you guys

With regard to ex/WH --- reconciliation was what I wanted for so long, worked hard for, felt was the "right" choice, what was "supposed to be", what we promised, but he just got worse. He drained my LBank to empty & was the one who wanted the D. Part of me can't imagine trying again, part of me feels obligated, and part of me feels resigned...the thoughts are something like this...I will probably be alone otherwise and we were supposed to be together forever according to our vows, so I guess I should at least try. sigh...

As far as the Norwegian boyfriend goes...I don't know how to interpret things. It doesn't feel like I'm in charge. I thought he might just be feeling guilty, so was reaching out, but both my male & female friends say no, if that was the case then he would avoid me. Maybe he just misses the ENs I provided, like admiration, but doesn't really want to go back to boyfriend/girlfriend. Or maybe he does want to go back to "us" like they say. So...it's confusing, and hurtful. It also feels so...what's the feeling? wrong? unfair? hopeless? rejection? ...that he is moving back to Norway before we have more time together. Although realistically, I would not move to Norway so soon anyway.

I'm trying to look at this with MBuilders wisdom...that my ex/WH hasn't been meeting my ENs and did MAJOR LBusting, so of course my LBank is empty. Whereas the boyfriend did meet my ENs, and no LBusting, and it all seemed so easy and natural for us -- our ENs are very similar. (Although I was not yet "in love", I was falling.)

However, there seems to be an element missing in the MBuilders formula, because it seems that logically the boyfriend's personality, values, likes/dislikes, humor, etc, etc are all a better match for me no matter how well my ex meets my ENs. Ok, I still don't think I'm in charge on the boyfriend issue, which is why I'm down. I want what I probably can't have, and may never find again. Yes, I can have a decent relationship and get my ENs met, etc. However, it felt like something more, and I don't believe that those connections are easily found -- there are so few examples in reality.

ok, done with my babbling ... thanks for reading this far, if you could stand it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Nev, Wow! For someone not into drama you've been put in a position where you're forced to deal with some. You have my sympathies.

The Norwegian boyfriend: I'd tell him you're confused & ask him to be clear about what he's looking for from you. You, need to be clear with yourself about what you want from him & the relationship. The interpretation of others regarding his behavior can only take you so far.

Your ex WH: Yikes! I've thought about this scenario for myself & wondered what I'd do. I've come to feel like this. I don't respect ex, he was a liar & ,I believe, a cheater. He did some things during the divorce that made me view him a new & unlikable way. Yeah, I know, during a divorce we are under stress & my not make the best choices, but still there was behavior that can't be disregarded. And here's a big one, ex is happy to be a part time dad. Though I've offered him as much time with the boys as he'd like, he's happy with seeing them twice a week & every other weekend. Also, he's 45 minutes away which makes things difficult, but he's fine with him that too.

Simply put, he's not a man I'd want in my life because he doesn't have the qualities I want my partner to have. Regardless of our vows, which I did take seriously, & our children, he already tore that to bits.

So, my feeling is if you want to give your xWH another chance it should be because you feel you can trust him & that he will be the kind of man you want in your life not because you feel some obligation. You have one life & your ex has demonstrated what he's capable of, do you want to spend time seeing that his behavior matches his words for you or him?

Know the feeling...

I didn't mean it was necessarily "good" rain, more like the difference between a gentle Spring shower and a downpour with at least some minor flooding... It would be easier if their intentions were clear, but they're no more clear than your feelings, especially about your X.

I read everyone's relationship problems here and think I should probably feel at least some gratitude for not having a relationship... but I don't.

I wish you luck sorting all this out. Let us know how it goes.

A not-so-interesting update: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Norw. (ex)boyfriend: He continues to call and text me almost every day, even when he went back to Norway for a week. He says he misses me, etc, and he seems to genuinely care, but ... he is still moving to Norw. in a few weeks, etc. Anyone have some insight on his continued contact?

I guess we are transitioning into friendship mode and we'll see what happens over time. My heart feels so much better knowing that he does care and he couldn't just "flip a switch" on our relationship and not miss me or us. Or maybe he just feels guilty? I dunno. I still feel very hurt & rejected. I wished I inspired him to take more risk despite the barriers of distance, prior hurts, obligations far away, etc., but that would make him less logical/pragmatic, and I adore that part of him.

The ex WH: So, we are taking it slow, just spending time with each other. I do see positive changes in him. We plan to continue spending time and see what happens. It's so ironic, to think back to a time when I wanted to recover so badly. Now I just feel numb about it. Totally numb & neutral -- all sparks are gone. Maybe they can be rekindled. MB would say so, but I'm not sure I believe that anymore, now that I'm the resistant one. Very ironic. Maybe it's because I gave it 110% for so long, and I was the faithful one, and it was all a while ago. Maybe I'm just spent, especially after a recent heartbreak.

Hello, Neverthesame.

What a couple of weeks you're having! I'm so sorry to hear you have so much to process all at once <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Forgive me if someone's already done this (it's a long thread) but I wanted to answer your starter post:
One excellent thing that you can take away from all this: your instincts are perfectly sound!

In the future, you'll know you can trust your gut feelings 100%

Hope that's some comfort <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
EW

Actually, my instincts were completely wrong.

He (foreign boyfriend) tells me that from the time we met, and before he even asked that our relationship be exclusive, he did not date or kiss anyone else. Sure, he could be lying, but I don't think so based on what I know about him, and also for the following reason...

He is now trying to work out an arragement with his job that would allow him to stay in the US a little while longer so that we can continue dating each other. He continued to contact me after the sorta break-up, and said that he realizes he made a mistake and misses me, wants to extend his job if he can, etc. We'll see what happens with his job...I'm trying not to get my hopes up.

After talking with a couple close friends, I understand the "pull of one's homeland," especially if "home" is far away, includes your parents, siblings, best friends for decades, a job you love---everything that is dear to you. It's unreasonable (and illogical) to ask him to give it all up after dating someone for 4+ months. We are not in college anymore - we have serious careers and family obligations that take priority. It may be that we will get to the point where one of us is willing to leave home, country, family, friends, job, etc. to join the other, but that decision will not be made after only 4 months of dating.

So, on the one hand, my heart feels like things are "right" again and I was not foolish or blind or whatever. On the other hand, I know the difficulty of overcoming the homeland/distance issues, and that makes me sad.

(((Nev))))

Don't you just HATE being a wise grown-up?

I wish I could wave my magic wand.

NTS, use the experience as a learning experience, and not the goal. . . If you are confused, and devastated by his actions, Plan B, start to heal, and get back to being independent. . . you may be very worthwhile, you just have to find a similar person that is worthwhile. . .

he is not any more. . .

time to move on. . . but it was a wonderful experience with a person, but not something that you should expose yourself to again. . .

my opinion. . .. only

wiftty