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If I were in your shoes, I couldn't be anything but bitter about the ending. The guy is a smuck. (SOrry, but he is.) Waiting a week or two wouldn't have hurt him. And this "I'm not sure..." THat's even worse than I thought.

I think Nev, you're asking the wrong question. The question is not whether someone can be in love with you... It's why do you pick guys who lack some sort of something.

You need to have your relationship picker tuned up, that's all.

Oh, and does anyone want to take best that if Nev drops him instead of letting him break up with her, this guy will come crawling back inside of 4 weeks? He'll want drinks to discuss things. Or send an email.


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I need certainty on where we stand, instead of this waffling back & forth thing.

Are you waffling? Do you know what you want? What is it - be together or break up? If you want to stay together ask him directly - yes or no. If he says "yes", then great. "No" or waffling both mean "no". In other words, Nev, you do can have certainty, but you cannot make him give you a "yes" answer. But you are giving him far too much power here by asking him to guide the relationship (or its end).

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My friend (a psychologist) said he must have been really hurt by those prior failed relationships that involved someone moving then an LDR, and that he is acting out of fear of that pain again. So, a self-defense reaction, which explains drawing close then pushing me away.

This is why I dislike psychology, and this is total baloney. Classic Twinkie defense. Nev, the guy has moved on, he is breaking up with you, period. NO sense rationalizing or explaining the why's behind it, I think it's much simpler than the whole "he is acting out of fear". I bet he is quite looking forward to moving back to his family and friends, and checking out the pastures there. I am sure he thinks that you were fun, but he is done with you. It is quite clear.

I know this all sucks to pieces, but I agree with GG - you need to cut this guy off (he WILL be back, guaranteed), and move on.

AGG


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I don't want things to end on a bitter note.

I think you can word an email to truthfully state your boundary without being bitter. I really don't see any benefit in meeting in person. If you meet in person, you're still waiting to hear what he decided. My recommendation is to pre-empt his decision with your own. No need to be angry or bitter about it. Just honest and unambiguous.

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ouch, ouch and ouch

ok...not trying to get him to "yes" in any way.

don't understand comment about giving him power over the end...ok, I could officially end things first, is that what you mean? ...but I have to respect the fact that he may want to end things, and I don't see that as "giving power" -- what am I missing?

"it is quite clear" ...ok, maybe this is just a standard "I don't want to date you anymore" break-up, but I have trouble reconciling that with the things he said & did the months before & the love/admiration/etc he expressed just two days prior ...so, what do you see? I do want to understand

but I get your point (I think) that regardless of motivation, we're breaking up -- is that what you meant?

I will definitely "cut him off" meaning that I will NOT be calling or texting him after we are officially broken up. Ok, so the advice is to say the official break-up first, then no contact. am I right?


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neverthesame,

Here's why I'm saying you need to take back your power:

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He went back & forth a lot -- "I don't know" and "I don't want to stop dating you, you mean so much to me" and "let's talk about this tomorrow" and then back to the break-up.

Both of you have accepted that the decision to move forward with the relationship or not is his and his alone. You're in, if he'll have you. And I hate to see you in that position. I'm trying to find a way for you to return to a position of strength by taking the decision out of his hands. And I think you have honorable grounds for doing so: The behavior you've just described is simply not ethical.

And so to me, the best solution is for you to make it YOUR decision and not his. By the way, that doesn't need to mean no contact, as long as you establish the specific terms under which you would engage in contact again.

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ouch, ouch and ouch

Sorry, don't mean to be hurtful, just direct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

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don't understand comment about giving him power over the end...ok, I could officially end things first, is that what you mean?

No. I don't mean that you should dump him before he dumps you as a power trip, that'd be childish <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

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...but I have to respect the fact that he may want to end things, and I don't see that as "giving power" -- what am I missing?

I am worried that you are giving him the power, not the power to dump you (everyone always has that power), but the power to string you along on his terms. Like curious said, you are "in", and he gets to dictate the terms. He should not have such power. It reminds me eerily of how most of our ex's were "confused" and fence sitting, it'd be too much of a trigger for me. Especially in a dating relationship, there is no need for such confusion.

I would prefer for you to tell him to decide, once and for all, if he wants to continue a relationship with you. Not a promise of a "future", but a relationship nonetheless. "Confused", "don't know", etc, are not normal terms in a healthy relationship. So I would hold my head up high and say "OK, buster, are you in or out?". It's a bit like being pregnant, either you is or you isn't. Don't let him string along with his confusion. Does this help at all? Believe me, you will be infinitely more attractive to him if you say "I see that you are not interested in continuing this relationship; I am disappointed but I accept your decision, take care and good luck" than if you get sucked into the on/off cycle.

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"it is quite clear" ...ok, maybe this is just a standard "I don't want to date you anymore" break-up, but I have trouble reconciling that with the things he said & did the months before & the love/admiration/etc he expressed just two days prior ...so, what do you see? I do want to understand

I can't get into his head, but he sounds to me like he made up his mind about the longterm (or lack thereof), and all he is confused about now is if he wants a clean break or to enjoy your company until he leaves.

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but I get your point (I think) that regardless of motivation, we're breaking up -- is that what you meant?

That's how it sounds to me, yes.

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Ok, so the advice is to say the official break-up first, then no contact. am I right?

I dunno. Some people like to play friends after breakups, I am not one of them. I always prefer more or less no contact.

AGG


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Curious -- thanks for the clarification. Sometimes another post sneaks in while I'm typing mine, so didn't mean to disregard your other post.

I do appreciate all the advice and support, and I NEED it right now. I'm am so crushed by the loss of my friend and now this break-up that I feel like my heart is smashed to dust and is basically gone.

Curious, I do want to meet in person. Our relationship hasn't gone on for years, and he may just be done with me and wanting to date others as AGG suggests, but while our relationship lasted...we met each other's friends and families and now have some mutual friends, we traveled to 2 different continents and took 3 trips, we said we would always be in touch no matter where we lived and we talked about finding a way to live in the same city, etc. So, it won't feel right to me to break-up by email. Phone doesn't do it for me either.

However, I can pre-empt his decision as you say and take back some power.

How does this sound to everyone, as a general outline?
--tell him that I've had some time to think about things said Saturday and everything going on in our lives
--that I understand we are each facing some serious decisions about jobs & careers, where to live, and I understand he is uncertain about those things (he did say this, only he also included "us" and mentioned he cannot do LDR, blah, blah)
--that because we were so good together and because we may end up in the same city, I ORIGINALLY wanted to let the relationship grow while he was still here, but now I think we should stop being boyfriend/girlfriend
--that I would like us to keep in touch and to hear about his upcoming exam, his job and things like that; and that I will tell him about my job, when I break 90 on the golf course and about my knee and being able to ski again

Then that's it--no lingering, no complaining, no criticizing, just end it with calm dignity, then say I have to be somewhere & go with a smile.

Comments? Thoughts? I cannot tell you guys how much I appreciate your time & advice. I'm going through a lot right now.

Oh, and the one boundary I have...I will not talk with him about my friend who passed on. If he does ask about her, I will say....thanks for asking...I was impressed & appreciated how loving he was at first, but just two days later I felt like he was extremely insensitive about it. As a result, I will not talk about Annie with him.


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Eeeks. My name is Annie. Again, my condolences on your loss.

I like your plan if you can be friendly without him hurting you by not being more. It's the waffling that so offends me, combined with the sense that he's seen this issue coming for a while. It wasn't urgent until you needed him emotionally.


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I would not try to preempt him. I'd let him talk, and I'd listen carefully. I'd listen for the bottom line. If he starts up with the "dunno", "confused", then I'd step in and ask for a yes/no. Let him act like a grown up and make a decision, no matter how hard. But don't let him waffle, tell him you have no time or energy for that crap.

I am very sorry about your friend's passing, my condolences.

AGG


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If I were in your shoes I might try this: Decide before Wednesday exactly what you want. If it's to walk away from this relationship call him & tell him that. Tell him you've given his words & behavior some thought & you agree, the relationship can't work. End, no more. Then do the hard work of letting it go.

If you decide you want to discuss his waffling some more, though honestly, I can't see anything but pain coming from this, see him Wednesday, but like AGG said, don't get sucked into a waiting situation where you give him this extra bit of time together while he decides the relationship can't work.

Let him miss you while he's still here but without you.


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Thanks everyone for the condolences. I cried my eyes out for three days and now I'm just numb. I think I'm in the denial stage of grief.

AGG - your prior post snuck in before mine. He did say he was torn about us, but then seemed to be leaning towards break-up because he sees it as inevitable...(He's moving for at least a few months, so that means a LDR at best, he thinks LDRs never work and views them as "wasted time," so he we'll break up anyway, so we might as well do it early than later and save time/hurt, etc). ALSO, the fact that he doesn't feel enough pull towards me to change jobs/home now & avoid the LDR situation. (Ok, that hurts, but I also think it's an unrealistic standard given that we haven't been dating 2 years like his past relationships that went into LDRs and given that he is moving "home", but that's his view)

AGG, at the time this happened, I did ask for a definite answer..."If you don't want to date me anymore, then just say so now. I have so much on my mind with Annie that I just want to know NOW." At first he repeated the stuff about LDRs, being uncertain, blah, blah, but then he just kept saying let's talk tomorrow (Sunday). (yet the answer seemed clear)

I did not cry, plead, or whatever. I said it's only been 4+ months so another 2 months would give us a more definite answer, that I wouldn't just throw it away early, but if he wanted to throw it away early that was his choice. In hindsight, that may have seemed like pressure/attempt to convince to him.

GGables - I can be friendly..it will hurt, but I am strong. See above paragraphs on how I dealt with this "in the moment" on Saturday. Confusing thing is that he was really there for me emotionally for 2 days - I was so impressed - then he did a 180. This move issue wasn't definite until recently,and he may change jobs after a few months.

OK, so I'm a little confused about pre-empting vs. listening for his answer. Thought pre-empting and "letting the cage door open" might be good to help me regain respect/my pride, especially since I think he isn't appreciating what we have and he now thinks I'm more into him than he is into me. On the other hand, I want to listen and really understand how he's feeling - we may end up in the same city and I don't want to burn a bridge yet. Maybe I can do both? So, listen & ask questions, then say based on that, I think we shouldn't date for now, but want to keep in touch, blah, blah. Thoughts? AGG, why do you advocate just listening if you think he is already decided?

Thanks everyone -- I feel like I should bake this group a huge batch of cookies or send wine or something!


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I cried my eyes out for three days and now I'm just numb.

And that is understandable, and makes his timing all the more crappy.

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He did say he was torn about us, but then seemed to be leaning towards break-up because he sees it as inevitable...

My honest opinion is that there is something else at play. I don't know what, but it's not this. This (LDR) is not holding water for me. He is only moving away for a few months? Nev, I'll be very honest with you - if I had a five month relationship under my belt with someone I was crazy about, I would not, NOT, accept a job move, or I would make sure that I'd find a way to stay in touch, especially if it's only for a few months, or I'd be ecstatic that you might move there a few months after me.

No, it sounds to me like he is not happy with something in the relationship. He probably won't tell you anyway, so I wouldn't kill myself trying to find out. But I'll give you an example - when I broke up with G, after 8 months, it seemed like a total shock to her. No question that I gave her many warning shots about my concerns, but I know that to her, we were a match made in heaven. But finally, I just realized that it was not going to work. Well, like I said, she was shocked and felt blindsided. She felt that all my concerns were just minor things, not things to break up over. But to me, there was no way for it to work.

Your BF sounds similar - like he has been pondering this for a while, and finally decided to cut bait. Even if he tried to give you his reaosns, they would probably make no sense to you.

Anyway, I sense that there is something at play other than his move. Has he ever been married? Does he have a history of long relationships, or short ones?


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AGG, why do you advocate just listening if you think he is already decided?

Well, he does not seem like he decided - "he repeated the stuff about LDRs, being uncertain, blah, blah, but then he just kept saying let's talk tomorrow (Sunday)."

Did he since say that it's over? If so, I'd say you're done.

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Thanks everyone -- I feel like I should bake this group a huge batch of cookies or send wine or something!

Great idea! Count me in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG


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Nams, in all honesty, I wanted us to continue up to his move was near, then discuss, with possibility of LDR for just the 2-3 months following the move until he knew for sure where he would be and when (since he may end up back here or us both in London). Then when he had more info, discuss again whether to continue or not. I'm afraid that may not be an option anymore in his mind.

I do want to meet in person - the phone convo's are not our forte (esp. with his strong accent), but in person we have great communication and I understand everything he says. It would feel like another death to just never see him again, although I realize that may happen even after the talk.

I agree though - no more waffling. Just not sure about the pre-emption vs. the listening. Votes?

Nams -- you said "Let him miss you while he's still here but without you." --- I agree!! If we broke up right before he left, he would be distracted with moving/friends/family/etc and his birthday just days after he leaves. (Although it has occurred to me that this gives him a chance to get over me before the move and to "hit the ground running" when he's back home.)

If you asked me last Wed, Thurs or Friday, I would have said he's going to miss me like crazy!! After Saturday, I'm not so sure he will miss me at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


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AGG - I must be a slooow typist!

Ok, you may be right. I can tell you that just 4 weeks ago I asked him if there was anything he wished he could change about me, etc and I asked about meeting his needs (in regular conversation, not MB lingo). He said he wouldn't change a thing and felt completely happy - and he said that before. The only things I can think of are:
(1) his friend who was just here mentioned that he fears it is too good and doubts it's possible to be such a good match. This is similar to something he said to me...are you going to change in 6 months?

(2) his friend also said that he is really tied to "home" and will probably end up there, and that he would need someone who can live there (Oslo) (we talked about London, or NY, not Oslo, but London is close)

(3) he thinks highly of me, is very attracted to me, admires me, etc, etc (confirmed by his friend). However, I don't think he is feeling "in love" with me yet, so he thinks he may never feel that way or at least thinks that he should feel that way in order to include me as a factor in his decisions about the future/job/move/home/etc.

That may be the bottom line - he is not in love, and time is up, so that's it. Or perhaps it's a combo of the above...meaning he doesn't trust it to be so good, and he sees it as doomed given the move, so he can't/won't fall in love. Or maybe he would never fall in love with me for some reason, despite the fact that we meet each other's ENs in spades, don't love bust and have been very attracted to each other since day 1. Maybe his life is so full/busy that my LBank contributions don't have as big of an impact as it would on someone needy. (I often think that the needier/more deprived a person, the more susceptible they are to LBank deposits and affairs.)

He did not say since then that it's over, but I feel strongly that was where he was headed.

ok, does that info affect your analysis?


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AGG - I must be a slooow typist!

That's OK, I'm a slooow reader...

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just 4 weeks ago I asked him if there was anything he wished he could change about me, etc and I asked about meeting his needs (in regular conversation, not MB lingo). He said he wouldn't change a thing and felt completely happy - and he said that before.

Well, if he was honest, then this change is weird, to say the least. Has your friend's passing affected him in any way (other than consoling you)? Has anything else transpired that could change his feelings?

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(1) his friend who was just here mentioned that he fears it is too good and doubts it's possible to be such a good match. This is similar to something he said to me...are you going to change in 6 months?

Sigh; with friends like this... Anyway, this sounds highly immature; most people do not end relationships because they are "too good to be true". My BS meter is way off scale.

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(2) his friend also said that he is really tied to "home" and will probably end up there, and that he would need someone who can live there (Oslo) (we talked about London, or NY, not Oslo, but London is close)

Bingo. I think this is the root of the issue. I already suspected this, that he is longing for "home". And guess what? I get the feeling that you are not wanted there. Like you were a nice distraction, but now it's time to go home to mama and marry a nice Norwegian girl.

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(3) he thinks highly of me, is very attracted to me, admires me, etc, etc (confirmed by his friend). However, I don't think he is feeling "in love" with me yet, so he thinks he may never feel that way or at least thinks that he should feel that way in order to include me as a factor in his decisions about the future/job/move/home/etc.

Ah, the old "I don't feel in love" line. Something is rotten in Denmark, or Norway. If he is not feeling in love, you ain't meeting his needs. Maybe he does not know what they are. Maybe you don't. But it ain't adding up.

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Maybe his life is so full/busy that my LBank contributions don't have as big of an impact as it would on someone needy.

Maybe. Tell me, how long was he here (in the States) before you met him? I cannot help the sinking feeling that he came to a big new country, found a great girl, had a nice "fling" (I don't mean it in a disparaging sense), but now the vacation is over, time to go home to reality. Close?

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He did not say since then that it's over, but I feel strongly that was where he was headed.

Well, tell him to tell you for sure. This should not be a mystery.

I still see red flags all over the place, my gut is screaming at me that something is way off here, and you are getting a bunch of BS answers.

AGG


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So on average, how long does it take to fall in love? I haven't fallen in love before 6-8 mos. Just 4 mos, and really 3 given the holidays when we first met, doesn't seem long enough to be in love. So average time is ??


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Nev, my own suspicions about what happened closely follows your psychologist friend's. The timing sucked, and the insensitivity sucked more, but I doubt that either was mere coincidence. Rather, the reality of what would be involved in a deeply committed and intimate relationship "hit home" for him under the circumstances, and a panic reaction resulted in which self-preservation became his only focus.

That's not very mature, of course, but to me it also suggests that he took his expressions of love and interest quite seriously. If he didn't take them seriously, then I don't see any cause for panic on his part. So...he's scared and confused, and he behaved insensitively, but is not necessarily an unworthy guy from what (very) little I can see.

The advice to decide what boundaries you want and need is good and sufficient, I think. Giving it more time, or transitioning to a friendship role, or calling it quits...any of these options is reasonable, as long as you take ownership of your own responsibility in the decision.

The person who is less certain about a relationship is always the one who dictates the relationship. That's just the way it is, and power struggles have nothing to do with it. It is no inherent reflection on the dignity of the one who is more certain if he or she chooses to be patient - even if the eventual result turns out to be rejection. In fact, to my mind, there is no great dignity in running away out of fear of the possibility of rejection, or because anything less than instant gratification isn't deemed good enough.

But neither is there any great honor in hanging onto something which is holding you back. Only you can determine what your choices mean for you.


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I can tell you that just 4 weeks ago I asked him if there was anything he wished he could change about me, etc and I asked about meeting his needs (in regular conversation, not MB lingo). He said he wouldn't change a thing and felt completely happy - and he said that before. The only things I can think of are:
(1) his friend who was just here mentioned that he fears it is too good and doubts it's possible to be such a good match. This is similar to something he said to me...are you going to change in 6 months?

(2) his friend also said that he is really tied to "home" and will probably end up there, and that he would need someone who can live there (Oslo) (we talked about London, or NY, not Oslo, but London is close)

(3) he thinks highly of me, is very attracted to me, admires me, etc, etc (confirmed by his friend). However, I don't think he is feeling "in love" with me yet, so he thinks he may never feel that way or at least thinks that he should feel that way in order to include me as a factor in his decisions about the future/job/move/home/etc.

That may be the bottom line - he is not in love, and time is up, so that's it. Or perhaps it's a combo of the above...meaning he doesn't trust it to be so good, and he sees it as doomed given the move, so he can't/won't fall in love. Or maybe he would never fall in love with me for some reason, despite the fact that we meet each other's ENs in spades, don't love bust and have been very attracted to each other since day 1. Maybe his life is so full/busy that my LBank contributions don't have as big of an impact as it would on someone needy. (I often think that the needier/more deprived a person, the more susceptible they are to LBank deposits and affairs.)

He did not say since then that it's over, but I feel strongly that was where he was headed.
I'm sitting here kind of swearing to myself because of how similar this sounds to my own situation. Except for the bit about being "very attracted to each other since day 1" (it took a few weeks for her to start feeling sparks, and her attraction to me was never extremely strong), the part about there being nothing about me to change (yeah, I could stand to gain a few pounds, I happen to agree with her there), and the fact that there are no LDR issues, the concerns you voice - on both sides - are uncannily familiar.

I want answers too.

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So on average, how long does it take to fall in love? I haven't fallen in love before 6-8 mos. Just 4 mos, and really 3 given the holidays when we first met, doesn't seem long enough to be in love. So average time is ??
Average time is...irrelevant.

Not only does it seem to differ for different people and different relationships, but statistics are no doubt skewed by the fact that people in our culture tend to give up on a relationship quite soon.

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AGG - I'm willing to admit that what I thought we had was just an illusion and he lied to me in words & actions. Obviously, something is wrong in order for him to end it. That being said, I really don't think he was just "acting" the whole time. I agree though - it just doesn't add up and I may never get the real answers.

I also agree that the "home" factor is a big one. I sorta took away the understanding that his feelings for home outweigh his feelings for me at this point (or at least that he isn't "as torn up" about leaving me as he "thinks he should be"), so that's it.

To answer your questions:
--He was here for 1.5 years before we met.

--It is not certain whether he will move back here. This is one of the things he is torn about -- where to live in the long-run. It also depends on his job. His friend thought he would end up deciding to stay in Oslo.

--Am I welcome in Olso? We talked about me visiting for his birthday party (which is 2 weeks after he leaves), and also to go hiking and show me the country, etc. His friends also talked about seeing me again when I visit. Who knows...

***Question: I asked this above, but I have to say that I would not expect someone to be in love after 4 months. I realize everyone is different and every situation is different, and it doesn't matter if HE thinks he should be madly in love and willing to give up "home" after 4 months. However, I want to know...on average, how long do people take to fall in love if all the right conditions are there? My guy friends all say 6-8 months, except one said 9-12. Agree? Disagree?

So, I am leaving him completely alone until we talk Wed night. Giving him the gift of missing me, if that's even possible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'll ask that we talk in person, and I'll listen and ask questions to understand what he is thinking/feeling.

I just can't comprehend that after our time together, even just our recent text messages, that he doesn't miss me...and yet I'm telling myself that he probably doesn't miss me. He may even be relieved. I just don't get it.


Nev
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