This thread is dedicated to all seeking answers on what makes them tick in the relationship dept. Many of us have made poor choices and are alone now because thier marriage partner would not seek help when it was offered to them, for whatever reasons, foggy or whatever.

Of course this thread cannot replace a counsellor who is trained or is treating someone who is questioning thier own self-worth because they have been betrayed or left by thier spouse.

Its the old proverbs 11
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
That this thread is in the spirit of..

So its a question and rant thread and I hope it can be a support one also.

So whats more important to love your mate or love yourself?


If the definition of love is to take extra special care of someone then what does that care consist of? In my opinion it has to do with forgiveness and reaching out for the really valuable things life has to offer that can be simple but we make them so complex. In my life at this time I am attempting to put things in perspective and at the same time questioning if my perspective is healthy. So I am not yet content to stay the same way without personal growth. I am trying to come back to the human race and stop feeling guilty for the impossible tasks I could not accomplish,(mostly saving my wife from her addiction and subsequent death), which must come from a desire to appease a inflated ego. Or at least a self worth based on who I could save. Believe me I was aware of that specific trick of the mind and never intended to live my life saving others but how did I fall prey to such vanity in past relationships? Whenever anyone,even my wife would do all the goo-goo eyes "your my hero" crap I looked around for the bucket of sand to make sure they were not planning on useing it even if they at the time were not aware that in thier mind they were setting themselves up to look for it later.

I act and do what I do because it is what I think/feel is right and I expect that others would recognize that and thats all. I hoped that others would see this and be willing to do the same if they had a chance to, not make me responsible for everything good in thier life and rule over them with some kind of supernatural "crystal ball" that can see thier deception and prevent them from making decisions that destroy themselves.

Part of why I have gotten into these relationships in the past has to do with what I think of myself and what I deserve. A good friend of mine said once I was a "Prince who thought I was a Frog" That was nice but it didn't help me only that in time I just set aside my emotions and said to myself I must be spoiled and didn't know how lucky I was. Of course I also did not listen to my gut feelings or advice from friends when I got involved with my second wife. Instead of going to colledge and taking phycology and social studies while seeking out a counselor to sort out my undefined guilt and anxiety I again attempted to have a relationship when niether of us were relationship material. Our obsession with our personal pasts were baggage not left at the platform for either of us and we lived to "fix" ourselves. In the end it was a selfish thing based on the shame we were trying to hide for being human. Its an endless futile battle.

So what do I do now? I would love to have a relationship with a woman but I know I am not good relationship material. I would rather, if it were a choice between the two, have a positive attitude and be grounded in reality with no needs from anyone to feel whole. I can be freinds with women and I have some. I would allways rather be a freind first anyways right? The question is what are the triggers that caused me to "need" a women in my life? The first girl I was with was my security blanket as it was my first girlfriend and in many ways she saved me from my own self-image issues when I was 16 years old. The second was a woman who knew a lot of scripture and seemed to want the same things as I and I found out to late that it wasn't true. But in both cases it was fear of hurting someone innocent,(hehe like who is innocent), that set the relationship up in my mind as what I should pursue.

So what triggers my desire for relationships...as co-dependant as they become..?

I am reminded of the groucho marx quote "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member" It seems to be where I am at right now and thats fine with me. There is so much work for me to do on myself, physically, emotionally, and financially before I will ever consider myself happy with me or confidant that I could be a good relationship partner and I see years before that could happen anyways. Its the right way to be anyways and any woman who would have me at this point would probably have her own issues she wasn't exploring completly. I don't want or need a Mommy lol.

What I need to define and fight against are what might be hidden in my subconscious the triggers that compel me into relationships that are unhealthy. In the past I slept with women and never compartimentalized sex outside of the relationships very well. I found that it was only if I truly didn't care about them much that I could "love em and leave them" I thought that sex was part of "adult" relationships and that there was something wrong with me if I didn't try to make the moves on a woman. I am old enough and had my head handed to me in that falacy enough to accept the truth that sex outside of total commitment(=marraige) is not for me and I don't want to change that about myself. I guess that I am not in love enough with myself to live in that Bull lol. I guess I am going to miss out..rofl. Anyways I would not fall for the guilt thing of sleeping with someone anyways and feeling responsible for thier wholelife after, and didn't when I was in my 20s and single without some other component that drew me in. I used to make it clear during my single days after my first marriage that if they slept with me it was because they wanted to and if they didn't have a good time I was sorry. No strings sort of twisted deal in my head. I wont go back there for a million bucks===Priceless===to be free of that.


I guess I am multi-tasking because it will take a lot of time,selfexamination,therapy, and work before I seek to take extra-special care of anyone but myself or even be ready to give love to another. But I am seeking what triggers me into relationships that are toxic where I get walked on and think I deserve it. I know I can't trust myself completly and the truth will set me free. I have nothing to hide, prove, or fear from the truth that I am human and tempted likewise as all the rest of us to cover ourselves with fig leaves.

In the end whats more important to me is that I can look myself in the mirror every day and know I have lived right before God and man.

Be damned badluck, throw a hammer at that mirror! If you look at yourself too much you start looking at the stray hairs, the scars from past wounds, and that mole that everyone else didn't even realize you had until you said something that one time...

The same goes with our inner selves.

When you are alone, it is all about treating yourself with love, because you are an investment gaining interest that someone else may find worth investing in as well. That's why we get into a relationship in the first place. Once we are with someone it is joint investment plan to carry on the analogy, and we have to invest that love in another. Ideally, they should be investing as much as you to keep it a happy marriage.

Being with another biologically makes us feel whole and happier than being alone. Studies prove it as well as simple observation. In a relationship we can become unhappy because it turns into a case of being alone with another person, where only one is investing and the other is taking withdrawls(Hehe, lovebank reference now that I think about it.). Completely different problem than "not being marriage material."

I get the impression you've tried to be the fixer of others a few times? Or somehow feel that you owe them more than they deserve initially? To me, if a person needs to be supported they won't have enough strength to hold another up when called for. This is the problem with "fixer" relationships, as the person needing support will just gravitate to someone who can support them the best. A welfair relationship essentially, at cost to you.

Being brave to suggest, I'd say try finding someone who is independent and self assured if "fixing" others is something you find yourself doing in relationships.

Lastly, avoiding commenting on that last sentence with any significant depth, just simply, that it is endlessy open to interpretation between each set of ears the idea rests between.

EDIT: Let me add, I agree with the intent of your last sentence. I personally get a great deal of grief given that I don't believe in anything, (Even less so since my WW betrayed me.) I as you, follow my principle beliefs to be the best human being I can be. Honorable, loving, and giving.

Its true I have done the fixer thing and have given my opinion quite a bit, probably stuck my nose in also where I thought I could help. Lessons learned..

I thoght that wife 2 was independant because she held a job and she seemed to know what she wanted and I thought we wanted the same things. She wanted to be independant and respect each others needs. Her problem with not knowing a responsible limit to partying or balancing it against her job was just the tip of the iceberg for her but I saw it too late.

It was my fault, I moved to fast. I reacted in fear of losing someone who would not wait while I went to colledge. She was convinced I was going to troll for colledge girls. I assure you I had that thought of course that I would date them before I met her but I don't cheat on my Girlfriends. Its just not how I work. The last time i acted that way was when I was 16-17 years old. But wife 2 could not handle me going to school so I did not have the support I needed from her in that and I caved.
Funny my Mom says the same thing about my Dad. She met him and he wanted to marry her way faster than she thought was comfortable but she agreed. Then later on only to see him take her life savings and buy land he didn't even discuss with her as he continued to have problems treating her right, avoiding counselling with anyone. Having problems with his Mom and Dad because of his behavior towards his wife and everyone really.

It was hard for us kids, me being the oldest only son felt it was my fault that Dad was allways so miserable. I recognize that my 2nd wife with her issues and me trying to fix, or help, her was a lot of my wanting to help ppl like my Dad. I knew that a long time ago.


The next, if there is a next, close relationship with a women will go very slow and easy after I am allready happy with who I am and what I do. There will be no slavery even if it has allways been in my own head anyways. How it got there is really irrelevent and for the shrinks to figure out its up to me to not buy into it or let it effect future relationships as baggage. (sounds good on paper but I suspect its gonna be easier said than done)
Its gonna take time either way and as Gramps allways said, "Haste makes waste". IMO relationships are our most valuable gifts we have in life. Why rush them? If we don't fool ourselves with thinking we "need" someone to be OK ourselves. We have a better chance of having a healthy relationship.
Then that new one can be built by two people and they add to each others life as they willingly give to care for the other.


Well thats the idea anyways and I can't take it lightly but I can't overthink it, but I can't take it lightly but I shouldn't worry ..

Someday, when I am ready, I hope to find that friend that doesn't need me but enjoys my company. First I need to enjoy my own.

This question seems so easy to me now. It is by far the most important thing to love and care for yourself first. And here's a bunch of reasons why:
1. It is my belief that God had a hand in making each of us. Therefore, our lives don't really belong to us... we are rather stewards of our lives. If we don't take care of ourselves, we are dissing God and neglecting our stewardship duty

2. It is only when we accept and care for ourselves that we show the world a consistent image of what we are. Until you like and accept yourself, your behavior will fluctuate, your opinions and values will vary. This makes it unlikely you will attract a partner who is truly compatible with you.

I would add a suggestion to go with "go slowly." When you find yourself in a new relationship remind yourself early and often that love does NOT conquor all. In fact, it takes very little to conquor romantic love. This thought helped me use my brain and keep my pheremones in check.

Very true about the stewards thing, We have this gift, and there is no excuse for not taking care of it.

The romantic love thing we have for another human being is conditional anyways. Scott peck described it as "falling" in love because we fall for the fantasy of the perfect person. As Dr Harley has taught staying in love takes work.

I wonder when it comes to the time of dating, What I will like or look for? It would be interesting to say the least. I have changed so much in 25 years. Not anything I need to worry about now anyways and by the time I look I will have changed again.

pheremones or hormones? And I'd agree with that, but in my dating experience, many divorcees seem so paralyzied and afraid of making a mistake that the won't get into anything at all. You aren't going to find that perfect person, nor know for your that it's the right girl/guy until you really spend time with them.

Yeah DKD I know thats true. In my case 25 years ago I was trying to hard to be an understanding guy and be tough enough to love someone who didn't have the tools to love me back.

The trick I think is to not try to hard and not worry to much as you remember to follow the rules.

I say Amen to what GreenGables said...I don't think we can be good for anybody else if we aren't first taking care of ourselves, both spiritually, physically, mentally, emotionally. We can't "fix" anyone or take them on as a project...we must let them be responsible for themselves, let them be the mature grown up we have faith in them to be and if they can't be...it's not the right time or person.
I learned so much from my last (XH) situation...to listen to our inner self, pay attention to red flags, don't let someone explain something away, if something doesn't look/feel/sound right...most likely it ISN'T right! And if someone else fools you anyway, shame on them, but get gone as quick as you can! The things I pay attention to first and foremost now are CHARACTER qualities...is the person honest, caring, do they have daily spiritual nourishment? Add a sense of humor and you've got something!

I've heard it said that confidence is attractive...but you seem to be exuding low self-esteem...I'm not sure where that's coming from, but it would be good to find out and work on it. Maybe you are shorting yourself and need to focus on recognizing your good qualities!

I think your post is right on. In the long run I could talk all day about what I think are good reasons to feel bad but it would just keep me triggered. I just lost my wife last May and it was a troubled marriage to say the least. I tended to take the blame for everything and it has been tough separating myself from guilt. Thats why Im here. To see what I had done wrong and be accountable for it and to kick out the undefined and unrealistic guilt issues. Besides.. if you want to be healthy you hang around healthy ppl. What could be more healthy than wanting to better your relationships with others and understand the gift we have from God in our fellow man.

I had severe low self essteem issues as a child but was determined that God would not abandon me and I would find a way out. I don't want to paint my life as a failure because I have had many good things in it. Right now the temptation to deny my depression and push myself back into life and stop feeling sorry for myself is strong. My children worry about me because my health is not who I was in my 20s,(I'm 52) and they have wondered how I worked as hard as I did in the past. The doctor told me I could not work anymore after three hospital visits in 3 months.

So now my job is to take care of me instaed of serving others in the workplace. That hasn't helped my self-confidance because I was raised to work and spent most of my time in the trades. I am looking into colledge again and am optimistic that I can again serve others but in a different capacity. I once had a dream of getting a BA in sociology and continuing to law to be a civil lawyer. It could still happen.

I need a dream again, a goal I believe in. My wife getting healthy and us laughing at each other until old age took us home was my dream, my cross I hung myself on,(sorry lord) and truthfully my ego trip that is gone now and the repercusstions have left me pretty empty and ashamed. Its one of the sayings on this board that.."Its not marriage at all costs" and its one I wish I heeded years ago. Really though I knew it but had no support in it. Instaed I hung in there and did the suffering servant gig which served nobody.

God is working on me, he has awesome ppl out there and here that speak the truth in love. I have a church, a pastor who visits me weekly, awesome loving Mom and my own children who honor me with thier character, a 2 year old grandaughter and I am seeing a therapist to talk things through. But I am not yet excited about anything yet really and have been feeling beaten down for years now.

I feel as if God is drawing me near to him through all of this and am willing to give him time to mold me. Its OK, many times its the valleys that we grow in. Iv'e been here before and allways have found a way out.

Maybe from what I just posted you can see that I am pretty seriuos most of the time. Painfully self-consiuos and easliy feel responsible to help people as I get guilty very easily. Im safe here showing that side of me. Here where nobody will ever meet me in real life but in the real world nobody can afford to be too nice.

"Life is a stage and we are but its players" I thought I learned via hard knocks that trying to "help" some ppl was just an ego trip for the control freaks in life or those who loved themselves to much. But shame on me for not trusting God to take care of them as I took care of myself. That which I am doing now as I fight my way out of this pit I dug when I didn't trust Him.



Thanx for taking the time to point out that I should look for help. That concern was help, in ways more than analysis can give if you KWIM.

OK crown me now I deserve it

Im not completly without a sense of humor LOL

So this thread was about triggers and feelings. Here is an example about what I mean.

The obvious way to be able to trust your feelings...hmmm. OK How about this? You have a life where the truth is allways told to you and you accept it. People treat you well and with respect and you know it. Your relationships are driven by positive ideals and fear is not the deciding factor in how you treat others because you would rather be dead than live a life of bondage to fear. Lets say for example that someone lived that kind of life, a blessed one really, would it be safe to say that they would have a gut feeling or instinct that they could trust? Would what they responded to emotionally in other people, (like an internal trigger that sparks interest or relationship) be a familiar good thing that set well in thier heart?

Sorta like when they train Bank tellers. They give them real money to handle all day while they train and when someone hands them a counterfiet they can "feel" it.

So what about those of us who were lied to by someone who said they loved us? What about those who were not respected and were manipulated because they felt responsible for everything that ever went wrong? ,(gaslighted). What about those who knew nothing but fear most of thier lives? What would be the long learned and ingrained driving forces they were so used to responding to? Would thier feelings be counterfeit and they didn't know it? Would they seek to return to the familiar such as a home and situation filled with drama or abuse, self or other inflicted?

I remember a Movie called Equais. It starred Richard Burton as a Psycologist who was studying a young boy who slaughtered some horses. The boy was brought up abused and twisted as his caretakers beat him and told him to pray to a picture of Christ on the wall above his bed each night. The Boy was moved to a stable when he was young enough to work and instaed of a picture of Christ he now had a picture of a Horse above his bed. The boy prayed to the horse and when a young girl refused his affections because he had grown into puberty. The boy went mad and murdered the horses, whom he worshipped. The point isn't is this believeable but lets pretend it happened for a sec.

When Richard Burton was watching the boy get wheeled away in a straight jacket, he said this. " My duty to this boy is to remove from his mind so twisted everything he percieves as real and comforting. Everything that he thought would love him, his God, though greatly nothing like God, is all he knows. Once removed, what will he believe in now? How can I empty this child and give him a life that even comes close to healthy. How can I fill him once he is empty?"

That scene is one I will allways remember. Its more what we are like and our human experiences than an imagined perfect one where we never get lied to, never get used, never are afraid and sell out to it for the familiar and hence comfortable. The crazy boy was completly abused and everything he thought of felt was twisted. Most of us just have some of our lives messed up but none of us gets thru without some damage done to us. Its how we deal with it that is important.

Scotty has in her sig line...

"Scars remind us where we've been, they don't have to dictate where we are going."

That says volumes in hope for those who have been hurt and thier heart has been scarred over by past experiences and they just don't feel like they are loved or can love again or worthy of it. The truth is like the velveteen rabbit who thought he wasn't loved because he was tattered and worn. When the truth is it was because he was loved. Live and learn. we are lucky to be here and alive, to love and suffer for others when need be and to recieve the care from others that feels so good.

I am working on me and as you can tell there is nothing I wont talk about or ask and my posts are long enough so some probably don't read me. It has allways helped me to communicate and chances are if you are reading this you have nothing better to do and are seeking answers as I am, or you would be out there doing it I hope. This is a time for me to ask all those stupid questions that I have in my head and vent. Someday it will stop and I will have talked myself out and sorted out my heart. When I can again trust my feelings and be confidant that what my instincts tell me are correct. That will take time I have never allowed myself as most of my life has been about performance and blind duty, sometimes fearing the wrong things or loss. But under all my whining I know that in time God will bring me out after he teaches me what I need to learn. I just wish he would hurry up before I end up on everyones ignore list

This deserves to be singled out and highlighted.

There is an excellent thread on this subject, please read Mark1952 posts:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2243454&nt=6&page=1

It was of immense help to me in understanding what takes place in the brain and how to deal with it.

If you are talking about self-esteem, it is better if it is God-based instead of us-based. We have to understand we are valuable because He made us in His own image and valued us enough to die for us...once we understand that, we realize we aren't just a piece of dog-meat.

The steps you are taking are good ones, enrolling in college, etc. Recognizing who you are as God's child is a great step.

I have that short-cutted to my desktop lol. It is a very humbling post also because its so loaded with facts that demand we must admit, we don't know as much as we think we do, and with that there is hope for us.

I am seeking all my expectations to be filled by God as I deal with myself and whatever negative lies the enemy trys to sell me. Most of all I wish to achieve balance internally and wisdom from Him. Gifts there for the taking for those not to proud to ask.

To be secure and love others with compassion and wisdom would be the best thing I could ever possess. I will let God be my compass as his mercy reigns.

Thanx all



This thread is et up to be T/jed or for ayone else who wants to vent/share/ask a question.

Anyone?

Well some good news and it applys to the trigger and emotion part of this thread.

I accually imagined what it might feel like to be wanted sexually. Lol. What a crazy life its been these last few years.

Don't worry I'm not going out and buying a red sports car or anything its just nice to imagine the possibility instead of feeling so dead and rejected.

But thats what this thread was for anyways for us to search out emotional responses and past triggers that cause us pain and to discuss how to protect ourselves in the process.

If anything everyone should know that even when you think you have been tromped down by life so bad you will never get back up again.. you can.

I never realized, until all this, how just about all of my self-esteem was wrapped up in what others thought of me. Most of my hurt stems from the realization that my ex seriously doesn't love me. That my so-called best friend (who had been quite cozy w/my ex) no longer loved me. That many of the friends I thought I had disappered with the divorce... so even though they did love me at one time (I hope) that love has long since disappeared.

I look at myself after age and childbirth have taken effect, and feel pretty worthless/undesirable and realize that it's all wrapped up in other people. Instead of looking at my own intrinsic value as a child of God.

SortedSomeOut said:

Seems like the healthy people don't want to be around you when you're hurting or otherwise trying to get healthy.

Daisy, that is true, but you have to hold your head up and realize your own value whether anyone else does or not. I know that after losing your spouse to death or divorce and watching your friends disappear rapidly, it seems a lonely existence. It's one that requires intrinsic effort...going out of your way to be around new people and trying to make new friends...and it doesn't happen overnight. Meanwhile, I got a dog, and it was the best thing I ever did!
1) I always know where my dog is
2) I get all the loving I can take
3) I'm in good company, he's very funny and entertaining'
4) He's loyal
5) I don't have to dress up for him...he doesn't care what I'm wearing or if I am overweight.

I do have to take him on daily walks but I figure that's good for my health. And I have to share my Doritos too but I figure that's probably good for me too.

Daisy, there is a saying that newcomers to A.A. hear: Fake it 'til you make it.

This has worked very well for me. In A.A. and elsewhere. It's helping me now in my recovery from the firebombing of my marriage.

Don't misunderstand: This doesn't mean put on a happy face and go dancing through the streets. It means telling yourself that you're really OK, that you're going to get through this and come out the other side.

And when you do this, you look and act better. It doesn't mean the hurt is gone, or that you don't have moments of extreme sadness.

It goes hand in hand with another saying: Mood follows action.

Every post I've made on Marriage Builders about my recovery has been the absolute truth. I am getting better. I am recovering. But every day I have my moments. I had one just a few minutes ago, while walking down the stairs. Why...? What if...?

And then I regained my senses and remembered that I wouldn't take back my WW now if she came to me on her hands and knees begging.

This is an unpleasant time. Perhaps the worst of my life. The old life and the old friends I (we) had have disappeared. I'm now trying to build a brand new life.

At 58, it's not the easiest thing to start all over. But what other choice do we have?

I know this is getting long. One more short story:

This evening I went to a "50-plus" night at my local community center. It's poorly named. It should be "70-plus." But the people were friendly, funny and it was a pot luck dinner. I was openly accepted and invited to join in. Even though I probably won't go back again for a while, it reminded me that there are caring, friendly people who would like nothing better than to spend some time talking with you.

Let them.

Well now that opens a whole line of thinking doesn't it?


I do know what you mean tho about how when we are hurting the people we used to know and maybe even sometimes listened to about thier problems or helped in some way, ya know, our friends, seem to find a way to avoid us. Sometimes its because they don't have the capacity to help and allways counted on us to be strong, and sometimes its just inconvieniet in some way.

But this is when we have a chance to let all the false towers of BCrap that we thought made us valueable or important melt away. . Sometimes we are just let to think things through and be alone because its obviuos we need to do some soul-searching and people recognize it.

Its lonly at the top. I can't go to my chilren because what I want to tell them about how and why all the reasons I am depressed and lost probably has to do with thier Mom. They know as messed up as Mom was, she loved them and di the best she could when she was healthy emotionally and mentally. I have to let them come to thier own conclusions about Mom as they need to be revealed. Also it was my wife and the pain I feel from that should never be handled by them ever.

So I have a counsellor to help me focus and identify whatever my problems are and help me not only feel better but act better. It just takes time ,introspection, reading, good thoughts, and reaching out to the ones who know we are all damaged goods from the beginning anyways and lifeis for learning.

Being alone without depending on someone who can't , or chooses not to, love us the way God wants us to love ourselves and others can be the best thing that ever happens to us. I am now going to dig deep and identify what I want out of life while I still have a chance. I will examine, turn over all rocks, and push myself to get to the core of what makes me tick and not have to worry about evrybody else to the destructio of peace of mind. I pray God will bless me with that and I will not fall into wrong thinking or have to deal with severe health issues, me or my children.

But most of all, I wantto stop feeling so bad about myself. I don't want anyone in my life that I give the power to use or hurt me and that will be up t me to discpline myself and accept that Godloves me.

I never used to talk very much about my feelings for to long. Mom and Dad had thier own issues and becoming a parent at 18 I had to suck it up and at least appear confident and act correctly even though I wwas scared to death. .

Once I realized it was attitude that made the difference and that problems were blessings in disguise to be worked out it helped me a lot to cope with much pressure. Still...I should have gotten counsel to identify many things about myself.

But then again, how much self examination will it take?

There is a scripture from the old estament. and I might be using it out of context but it causes me to have hope tha I am not as pathetic as I feel, that God knows our value even when we don't...

They judged themselves, by themselves, and they became unwise"

I'm crying now because my late wife, in a time when she had clarity, told me that one but how the words effected me and touched my heart of course are gifts from God to me and thats what the beuty of scripture is. Its personal.

Now my most important relatioship will be the one I have with God and I am seeking to get closer to Him. As far as people go, Its slow and easy and as objective as I can be for them. Emotional closeness might be obtained with a women someday but there is no rush. I will need friends first that I can count on and if I had to make a choice between having good friends and peace of mind or one relationship that was a lot of work I had to white-knukle it thoug. Ill take the friends.

Besides, the relationship will start with friendship anyways right? Its the baggage that will need to be stowed first because I never want to need anybody like I usedto. I don't believe God intended me to anyways. It was me who made that mistake.

Yeah Daisey we are here too so share with us and learn from all these other ppl that not only are you not alone, but in good company with others who dare to love.

I've heard so many mention about accepting themselves as God sees them...so why is it that churches carry so much stigma surrounding divorce? Even when it was revealed that my (now ex) husband was a con man that stole from me, cheated on me repeatedly, and had no intentions of ever living with me or buckling down and being a real husband to me, my pastor still would not say "yeah, you need to get a divorce". People treat you like a leper if you're divorced (at least in my conservative Baptist church). Why is that? It leaves you feeling raped once by your husband and twice by society...oh and three times by the law because they said what he did wasn't a crime. ??!!

Sorted, I like following your threads . . . a fellow seeker on the same general path


I get so frustrated to hear things like this. I feel very blessed to have grown up in the Catholic faith I have, where we don't have divorce, we have annulment, which basically means that although there was a wedding and vows were said, due to something faulty in one or both of the partners at the time of the vows, the marriage incomplete and therfore not valid. It is a very healing way to look at the whole process, the grief, etc. And the church doesn't just "grant" an annulment either. It's like a court case, where the person seeking the annulment must prove the need for it, and the church appoints a "lawyer" to defend the marriage. So it's not just an easy out, or at least it isn't intended to be.

I also agree that a pastor in no way should be telling his parishioner what they should and shouldn't do, regardless of their position. Heck, BECAUSE of their position. We are all children of God, each with our own personal relationship with God, and we ultimately are responsbile for our decisions. So to rely on the advice of others is in some ways an attempt to pawn off that responsiblity. Likewise, my giving explicit advice like that to someone may mean that they are not making their own decision, and they could blame me for the outcome. Advice, even from a trusted pastor, is probably not the best way to go. Rather, I appreciate a leader who points me to the scripture, and in my case, the wisdom of the church through the writings of the saints, theologians, fathers of the church, etc. so that I can make a decison with an informed conscience. Relying on one person is dangerous, IMO

Sorted, I wanted to address you, too, since you have shared more of your story with me on my thread. As you know, I have been going to alanon, and I have found it to be very helpful in working on my self-esteem issues, making peace with my feelings, learning to respond in love rather than just react, etc. It is such a spiritual program; truly, for me anyway, the goal is to be happy knowing that my God is always in the driver's seat of my life, and the 12 steps are teaching me how to do that, and the accept what life gives me, as well as grieve and accept the past.

I really think you ought to try it. I know your wife's been gone a long while, but the effects stay with us even if the drinker is gone. My "qualifying alcoholics" are people with whom I had no relationship, a generation ago, yet their behaviors affected my parents and grandmothers, and therefore affected me. Same with my husband. The disease affects everyone it touches.

You are such a sincere seeker, and I just wanted to say that for me, the steps are the best "roadmap" I've ever come across as I seek to get closer to God. I know that as I give control to him, the guidance in my relationships will come. I know so many who have been given second, third, and more chances at practicing relationships . . . surely there is every reason to believe that you will too!

A few more nuggets for you:

1. I have found that we attract what we are, spiritually, emotionally, and even physically.

2. I have also found that in order to improve myself, I need to surround myself with those who are a bit further on the path, and distance myself from those who do not want to be on the path or want to hold me back. Some relationships are only meant to be for a season. It's one thing to invite them on the journey, and quite another to drag them along against their will. (I think that includes those who have died, too.)

As St. Paul said to the Ephesians as he left them:

"And so I solemnly declare to you this day that I am not responsible for the blood of any of you, for I did not shrink from proclaiming to you the entire plan of God.�

Know that you did not shrink from doing the best you could at the time. Learn what you could have done better, but rather than regret, make amends by not doing it in the future. It is our mistakes that make us who we are, and it is our imperfections that prove that any good thing we do is truly the work of God, not us.

Kay I can't answer for every church but I think that what most corporate institutions of churches strive for is to have fellowship with others who they can feel safe with.
Unlike Jesus who came to save the lost and reunite them with God through his diety human beings are limited in how far they can extend themselves when someone goes out beyond thier safty zone. They just do not have that faith or connection to it that gives them that strength. The best they can do is point to Christ but they still reserve that place that they are human and do not have the power to change our circumstaces so they manytimes run away from us in the name of survival. Truthfully the spiritual help we need cannot be brought about though them but only by the person of Christ and his example but to often that translates into, "I will pray for you" but they are not prepared to spend time with you while the painful process you undergo works out. They either don't understand, can't understand, or are at a loss to help because they are working out thier own problems as they see more important to thier well-being. In a nutshell they are afraid.
I remeber a church member that my wife was talking to one day and my wife was bringing up how we were struggling with finances. Wife was going to talk aout how we were having problems making the rent and how we were very stressed over a long period of time. The individual replied before my wife could get into detals. "Yes I know, I can't even pick up my dry cleaning this week"

My wifes emotional response was embarressment and did not seek help from this woman because she felt that she wasn't in the place wew were. Wife just felt lost I am sure. It would have been great if she could have opened up to her but we were ussually in the business of helping the less fortunate at our own expense and her pride was hurt while that reaching out was done at great risk to her own self-esteem.
I don't know what the other womens deal was but it seemed par for the course for those who are not able to see past thier nose. My wife and I would never deny this woman her lifestyle or ask anyone for a handout because envy was not healthy and its a neverending pit anyways. We were glad to see others prosper.
I do think that it was an opportunity for the woman to listen to my wife and hear her out and give her advice though and to my wives credit she saw she was not capable of it right away.

That was just an example of how many ppl are just in the God business for themselves and as the comfortability rises they seek to hide thier heads in the sand to others needs. "where your heart is your treasure lies also" sorta thing.

Our pastor in 1975 had counselled my Mom who had taught Sunday school, married and lost her virginity, was a friend to many for 2 years weekly while trying to get my Dad to come in for counsel also..and my Dad had issues.. the whole family knew it..

After 2 years he finnaly said " Well if your Husband still keeps saying he wants a Divorce maybe its time you gave him one"

We had attended Baptist churches and Protestant since I was young but Dad was in it for what God could do for him while his Mom and Dad and brother waited for him to see what He had allready done for him. My Dad cared about what people thought and his position in thier eyes and he suffered for it. He talked quite a few times in the vien of "Doing his time when he was young, sang in the choir," etc. It was a blessing that my Moms pastor had the guts to help her because my Dad lived in a miserable place strongly afraid and paranoid and would not accept help or trust anyone. Hes in a nurseing home suffering from alzimers and a stroke before he was 70, His third wife now owns the house he scammed out from the family and she has allready secured it legally, (more power to her, she a goldigger anyways, her nephew used to tell me stories about her years before my Dad got hooked up with her).

My Mom just turned 83 and still drives, goes out dancing, and is there for anyone who needs like she allways was. She know what God did for us all and has never been ashamed of it. My Dad seemed to allways live in shame.



But as to your question Kay.. The corporate body of churches many times try to keep up appearances because they need to advertise themslves as a winning proposition. New properous members are allready healthy and Jesus din't come to save them anyways he came for the lost. How quickly many forget "there but for the Grace of God Go I". It takes a heart of mercy and the cost of our time to reach out and many are not willing to take a chance of losing what they have. A secure club who keeps the rules they all agree on while other clubs keep thier own set of rules.

I like the Groucho Marx joke.. "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member"

But God hates religion so I am in good hands

I was really encouraged by the above posts. Sometimes it helps to know you're not the only one experiencing these things.

ok, well there were some posts on the next page I hadn't seen when I wrote the above �I�m encouraged�


Kay, I feel your pain. Churches go through so much pretense of being forgiving and "there for you." I love the Lord and hope I can find a church in my new location that really does accept people as they are and gently encourage them to be everything that God has called us to be. I personally believe God has called us to be holy and touch not the unclean thing. But Jesus also says let those w/o sin cast the first stone. At one point in our lives, ALL fell short. And leaving an abusive relationship (even if the LAW says its LEGAL, ugh) doesn�t exactly count in my book as �falling short� the same way cheating on your wife or sex outside of marriage that many pastors I know of have done� so why the extra harsh stigma? I know ALL churches aren�t like that, but so far many of the ones I�ve tried in my new southern location are.

Ok, let me get off my rant�

Christian books/radio/advice always says to �get connected/get into a strong support system in your church� in order to get through these tough times, but it�s hard to get connected when people are so quick to judge. Sometimes I wonder if it�s really their own bitterness at feeling �stuck� in their poor marriages.

Most of what I have found in the few churches I have tried in my new location is that as soon as I tell people I'm divorced their whole demeanor changes. As if I'm not still a child of God. In my current church, I loved how accepting my pastor was of me and my situation (though it was sometimes hard b/c he also accepted my ex).

LOL, sounds to me like most people in church really need to just GET SAVED!

Thanks TTT, I find your posts helpful also.

I was going to Alanon for a few weeks after a few months past my wives passing. Then I lost my ride and felt I would return when it could be re-established but have not as of yet.

My first experience with Alnon was back before our first seperation 20+ years ago. I was told by a few ppl when i asked them what i should do about my wives drinking then that she was in love with the drink, I allready knew that.. I went to AA to see what I could understand about this lies she believed in herself that was controlling her. How could this intelligent, bible colledge educated, gutsy and merciful woman with such high moral standards let herself fall into such a jeykll and hyde exsistance? What fear had taken her over? How could i help her to come back to earth and not subject me and our duaghter to her emotional hell she lived in?

It had allready damaged us so much and i was sure i had bitten off more than I could chew and needed help to understand.

Being someone who had experianced as a teenager the Bullcrap that using drugs to cope was and knowing that the lie is that you are not able to do what you need to do to be loved, Originally I thought I could help her understand it was all in her mind. We had disscussed this many times and she agreed and with her extensive knowledge of scripture and past experiance of getting away from the toxic and abusive family situations she had endured as a child I believed that she could work this out if put in the right atmosphere. As I realized she did not have the inner security to really decide to be with me or not, and that she was still afraid and trying to survive, it was very painful for me because I knew she was just using me as she floundered.

I, as many others who knew her, knew her potential and saw her heart. She was easy to love but after I saw what the relationship was doing to me because of her problems I had to leave to save myself, not an easy thing for me to do because although I could blame her I was still responsible and inside did not want to abandon her and my daughter. But as long as alcohol was more important to her than our health and our familys future I had to swallow the pill that she was better off without me and really didn't love me, she loved some other guy she wanted me to be.


So as far as AA goes its interesting that the principles and steps used are spot on what God asks us to do.

The original founders recognized the power and nessesity of these and to me, and my wife also, applied these tools to themselves and helped others to see the wisdom and comfort also.

From what I gathered at the time the founders had an aversion to religious organization or God as it was taught so they took what was valueable to them and thank God they did for it has been a gateway to emotional and spiritual growth. My wife though took the shortcut and wanted to bypass the process of understanding herself and yes, probably "used the grace of God as a lisence to Sin". Know this though I did not have a relationship/ spiritual understanding like she did and was in many ways gaslighted, or allowed myself to be anyways, by her scriptual knowledge untill I saw the light.

I finnally had to rely on my first impression, that anyone who was set free by Christ did not abuse themselves and did not truly go though the cross or come to the end of themselves, or was humble enough to be taught, had not been broken to the point of having nobody else to trust.

I truly turned her over to God and was done. I did hope for her to get better but not so we could be together, but to assuage the guilt I felt for thinking I was special and was able to love her more than the God she really needed and was hiding from. She was a special creature and even though I did not want to admit it at first she needed someone with more resources and financial security to be with, someone with unshakable confidance and someone who knew the scriptures who could call her out when she would blame them for her weakneses. That was not me, I was struggling to get a carreer and provide for now two children and she was pregnant for my third.

The alcohol use was destroying any chance for her to start her spiritual recovery and I believe she drank because she felt trapped with me or just couldn't cope with all the emotions she was experiancing from past life experiaences, (no not "past life" like she was some reencarnation lol)and the rollercoaster ride she was on at the time.

Besides I would not play the role of her jailor so she could run out and drink while the world felt sorry for her anymore.

Fast forward 20 years...


My primary concern and purpose by going back to Alanon was to help me understand the guilt I felt after she died and how to deal with it. I also had to find out how to help my children to not be consumed by emotional attachment and the lack of remorse my wife felt during the last ten years of her life. She was to far gone to have the presense of mind to admit to the children she had done anything wrong when she took up herion and crack and left the marriage in 2003. She never even said to me she was sorry because in her mind she was guiltless, it was everybody elses fault or failure that forced her to self-medicate herself.

I had to realize that the door of opportunity for her to suck it up and get the personal counselling she denied she needed had long gone and she chose the comfort of emotional denial and justification that comes with the "poppys", (like dorothy who feel asleep in the field who almost missed her life?).

So AA was to me a place to dump the guilt I felt about not staying away when i left years ago and not getting help for my own weakness of self-esteem problems and not stepping up with the boudaries I should have at the right time.

I would have been one of those guys who would not expose an affair had i logged in here 20 years ago as my life was unhealthy enough in my own co-dependancy and believed we were special for all the wrong reasons. I was borderline in the same denial and ignored what God has been trying to tell me my whole life. Its not all my fault and i can't fix it.


I see Alanon as part of the road to recovery for any human being because the most important information and tools are given to us there. We are all addicts in some way and use coping mechanisms to survive they are not as destructive as drugs but the chemistry of the mind is effected in some way.

I never see myself as better than a drug addict just blessed to not have fallen into the place they have.

If my late wife had not had the emotional issues and the drug abuse she would have not married me. If she had gotten the proper treatment as a child or come to grips with what she needed to do as a young adult she would have been a moving force in this world. (not that she wasn't to many).

Ok one more thing...

Because she was at one time a "shining example of redemption" and one of the churches success storys along with one of our Pastors favorites nobody would approach her about anything. She also could become very combative and would turn any critisism on church policy into a personal attack on her Pastor, whom was an awesome insightful gifted speaker with a vision to bring Christ to the world.

As her Pastor started to get ill about the same time my wife fell into drugs again the politics of the church caused them to pretty much let her fall to the wayside.


I just would have liked to have more practical help instaed of convienient denial with my marriage. All the prioritys got mixed up. It was my own fault for not standing up for myself and what turns out was right. Charity begins at home.

Yeah Fred its so true that age is a state of mind too.

Sorted, the thing about alcoholics is that even if you remove the alcohol, you're left with the "ic".

The problem is not just the drinking. As you said, "We are all addicts in some way and use coping mechanisms to survive they are not as destructive as drugs but the chemistry of the mind is effected in some way."

I believe, and have learned in alanon as well as from personal experience, that the spiritual disease that leads to drinking and drugging is potentially just as deadly for those who are using any "coping mechanism" besides chemicals. I've never smoked, and my drinking is sporadic at best and definitely not addictive in nature. But I have "acted out" in ways that are potentially deadly, and I know my semi-suicidal moments could easily progress to truly suicidal with just the flip of a switch if I did not have what I am finding in Alanon. And I have always been an extremely spiritual person, am very involved in my church, love to study and discuss theology, etc. Religious faith is very important, but for me and many other Alanon friends, it was not "enough."

I think that is why the founders of AA stuck to "spiritual" principles rather than "religious". With religion, there are black and white rules, made up by human beings. As Bill Wilson, the founder of AA said, he came up with 12 steps so as to prevent any loopholes for an alcoholic to get through. Add to that the Traditions, which are intended to guide how groups work, but can be applied to relationships with anyone, and then the Concepts of Service, which are intended to guide alanon service work, but which have wisdom to guide us in our individual service to anyone, and you have 36 principles to guide your life an answer just about any question you could have, without using rationalization or justification.

I think the key is that any of these 12 step programs are not so we can change someone else. It's a way for me personally to walk more closely with my higher power, who personally loves me. And it's a way for me to find personal happiness and contentment that does not depend on anyone else, spouse, parent or child. My happiness comes from walking with my higher power though both the good and the bad, and from accepting that I am not responsible for the weight of the world. Just me and the things I CAN control. Which is not very much. What a tremendous relief!

Yeah ,like every Day and second I think.. Every day when I think with God I get saved from myself and my own vain imaginations. When God turns up the heat its painful but in the end I will come out better.

I love the scripture. "The trials of our faith are more prescious than Gold"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "practical help." The best help I have seen is detachment. Which is extremely hard. It means giving other people the dignity of their own sometimes destructive choices, while doing my best to protect myself, all in a way that is out of love rather than resentment. Simple, but hard. You can't fix someone else, no matter how small or large their problem, you know that. The attempt at fixing will only make us sicker.

The best practical advice I could give anyone if I were to give advice is to work on myslef. Make my relationship with God more importnt than anything else in life, because everything else is passing, even marriage.

By practical help from our church I meant someone not afraid to dig in and find out what was going on with my marriage and why we were struggling. When they did find out they were to afraid to confront.

When my wifes pastor was youngr and had a smaller less business oriented church he lit up people who acted like asses, including my wife a few times.

His followers were so busy trying to ride ther coatails of his reputation they were afraid to even tell him things at one point and then when he got sick there ws no way to reach him because it effected him mentally. So they had to protect him of course.

It was his followers who worried about how things appeared that washed thier hands of my wife when she was sick.

Its lonely at the top. But I saw it coming and tryed to warn my wife. Yes it sucked she didn't respect or listen to me but I could deal with that. I dealt with the problems with the "detachment" that you speak of.

As a woman who didn't judge people when they really screwed up and helped messed up ppl gain a hold on thier life and als counselledmany of the women in the body,....to see them al run and hide when my wife fell apart... it was disgusting.

If one of them would have chewed her out and helped me get the strength to get her butt into treatment I would have called that "Practical" help. They just didn't want to make waves and found it convieniet to dismiss my wacky wife although the church benifeted from her when she taught and counselled.

Maybe they were just jealous that she was close to Pastor. Heck, There was more than one time she understood what he was talking about before others did and Pastor asked her to explain at busness meetings in her own words.

You are probably not going to like what I�m about to say. Just a heads up.

It was not the church�s responsibility to �dig in� or �find out� what was going on in your marriage, nor was it your pastor�s. That is none of their business. Unsolicited advice is still abusive, even when it comes from a well-intentioned church or pastor.

Now, if you had gone directly to your pastor seeking help, that would be another story. But to offer help without you explicitly asking for it is, in my opinion, not healthy.

My pastor does not ask me what is going on in my life. He is available for confessions whenever I need him, and when I go to him, he does not give me practical advice. He directs me to pray, sometimes directs me to a passage in scripture. He trusts that I can find my own solution, and is willing to be present as I struggle to do so. He gives me the dignity to struggle.

Nor is it their job to confront, unless your wife specifically did something that impacted them personally. I do not believe I am responsible for someone else�s salvation; only for preaching the Gospel. When necessary, using words. Their salvation is their choice, and for me, there is fine line between preaching and judging. I believe many �believers� cross that line on a daily basis.

I one time called an alanon friend seeking advice, feedback, etc. I kept going on and on about my situation, and she said nothing. Finally, out of the kindness of her heart, because I was a newbie, she asked, �Would you like some feedback?� Only after I had said YES, and thinking, �Geez, do I have to spell it out?� did she light into me and give me a good beating with a 2x4 which I richly deserved. But only because I had asked for it. Anything else would have been unhealthy unsolicited advice.

I�m not trying to say that the folks at your old church were saints. It is too bad that they did not appear to be supportive when your wife�s life began falling apart. On the other hand, perhaps they were doing what was best, letting your wife meet the consequences of her actions rather than trying to control the situation and prevent the crisis. I have found that groups either swing to one extreme or the other � either they are totally enabling, or they are totally withdrawn. There are negative consequences either way.


Sounds to me like you have a lot of resentment here, which begs the question, what was your expectation of these people? Was it a reasonable expectation? Was it a HEALTHY expectation?

You may be exactly right. They may very well have been a bunch of spineless wimps who were afraid to make waves. Why does it matter what anyone else did or didn�t do? You couldn�t control that then, and can�t now. But your resentment, even if it is just residual, could be hurting you now.

Taking care of you (and your part of the marriage) was your responsibility, not theirs. You did it as well as you could at the time. What I have found is that rather than beat myself up over my �failures� and �shortcomings� or try to place blame on others (even those who ultimately may deserve some blame), I focus on what I have learned, and I focus on my gratitude for the situation which taught me those lessons. Therefore, I can live with no regrets, accepting that I�m human. Call it the grace of God giving me license to sin. The fact is, the grace of God is real. And I will continue to sin. And it�s nobody�s business but mine and God�s. Nothing can separate me from the love of God. Nothing.

Nothing can separate your wife from the love of God either. Not even her choices. God�s love is way more powerful than that.

And please know that I would never just say this stuff to you. It�s only because you have posted here asking for thoughts. Asking for help. You too have the choice to accept it or reject it. I do very much try to stay away from giving unsolicited advice myself.

My point is (after a long-winded post) that �practical help� is often an expectation we have, but one which is a misplaced or unhealthy expectation which may actually contribute to a problem, create a new one, or have unintended consequences. But this too is a chance for learning.

Just to add one quick thing:

When I was getting married, there were a lot of people that had doubts and concerns. My pastor at the time was one of them; he knew that I had unrealistic expectations, but just smiled and nodded when I talked about them. My parents also had concerns, and did share a little bit, but not nearly what was truly in their hearts. For many years I have been annoyed and resentful that these people who knew me did not confront me. But, I never asked their opinion. I never asked them, "Do you think I'm making the right decision.?" I see now that they gave me the dignity to make my own choice, even if it was not the wisest choice, and they have the love and detachemnt to allow me to struggle, to feel pain, to hit bottom, to yell and scream and totally lose it and cry. And let me live with the consequences of my actions. TheToday, they sit by and watch me struggle as I try to find a solution. And I love them for that. Because I can truly own my part.

And THAT is where I get my self-esteem. From knowing that I have choices, that I can make them with dignity and be wrong, and learn, and be loved anyway.

I can totally understand this! It took a LONG time for me to stop being resentful of my ex�s coworkers who stood by and did nothing when he came back from Iraq messed up in his mind. The poor behaviors he exhibited that eventually broke up our marriage were traits he had prior to deployment, so I won�t say military service CAUSED it. But he came back depressed and sunk lower and lower. This is one reason it took me so long to leave, because I thought �well, if he had lost his legs, I wouldn�t leave him and this is an injury just the same� and I would still be with him if not for worry about the welfare of me and my son*. BUT it made me so mad that he wouldn�t listen to me about going to counseling, and none of the guys at work would encourage him to go EVEN though they have all these programs for military who are having trouble adjusting. He went in 2004, so they didn�t have those programs then, and not long after he returned he was put out of the military for poor performance. I was so mad at the military buddies he still hung out with for not encouraging him to get help. And mad at his church buddies for saying Christians don�t need counseling because they have the Holy Ghost. He really needed it.

Basically, I was angry at my life, and looking to blame everyone when really there were only two people to blame: Him for his choices, and me for mine.

Eventually I had to realize that his behavior was HIS choice. HE chose to not get help. Even when we were broke. Even when things came crashing down. It was HIS choice. His choice hurt me, because we suffered financially and health wise and also emotionally (it showed how little regard he had for me and our family- and that hurts), but bottom line they were HIS choices. I just figured if one of �the guys� would have tried to intervene, then he would have gotten help, and then I wouldn�t be a single mom with a hurt child. But we DON�T know if their intervention would have mattered�. Because OURS didn�t. Someone could very well have said something to him � just like someone could have said something to your wife that you don�t know about � and she could have chosen NOT to listen. He probably would NOT have listened. I got confirmation of this not long ago when the person my ex most respects in the world told him to go to counseling, and he still resisted.

*Notwithstanding, there are other extenuating issues and faults of mine that hurt him as well�those who remember my story know I REALLY hurt him. I�m not trying to say my whole marriage fell apart because of this, but if he hadn�t gotten progressively worse I�d still be with him. Not happily married, LOL, but still with him.

Well in my case it wouldn't have mattered much because my husband lived 3 1/2 hours away and wouldn't have allowed the church to talk to him even if they'd tried. I haven't even known his address since he quit coming home over 1 1/2 years ago. Some churches do consider it their business as Luke 17:3 says: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, then if there is repentance, forgive." In my church, if a couple are living together and not married and they are members of the church, they will get a visit from the Elders, and if they refuse to get married or separate, it will be brought before the church body and they will be voted out. They also voted out a couple for getting a divorce, which I didn't think was fair because the wife was cheating, what was the husband to do, just keep taking it? But I was chastised for standing up for him. The pastor told the church he'd tried to reach him to get his side but the man said the pastor knew how to get in touch with him and never did.

I didn't mention that I had approached authority figures in the church about getting help and yes she lost friendships because of confrontations she had with other members over diferances of opinions. I won't go into detail because I feel I am getting into a church bashing mode and it was not my intention.

I probably did not give an accurate picture of how this particular church, its Pastor, and the congregation conducted themselves and maybe it would just be a selfish thing to try and get others to see what I am saying or agree with me. Its Ok I understand what happened that effected me because of my relationship with my wife.

You can't posibly know what the dynamics were and it would be more destructive than benificial for the cause of Christ to split hairs about what we are accountable for as Christians.

I would rather speak positivly about those who serve God and support an open minded process for healing than crucify even those who abused the power they had. Who am I to judge? Maybe I would also have done the same, but i doubt it.

Because the word of God is true and even when used by people to control others those who hear God through his word and not the personality of the speaker can benifet as i have. So unless i can think of some way for you to see that what i said had merit I will just retract what I said about expecting help from them. Im not a person who needs to be right and show myself perfect all the time. I hope i wil never be that foolish

Thank you for having the respect for me to tell me those things even though you thought i would or could be offended. That might be just the kind of confrontational stuff I expected my wife to recieve from someone who stated they were her friend, and thats what I meant.

I don't see how I could convince you that this particular situation merited some more integrity and guts from the authorities in her church and will side with free will with you as God has intended it.

I have allready forgiven but will never forget how we were hung out to dry but the one I still need to forgive first is myself. I was responsible for my wife and whatever foolish behaviuor I allowed or line of crap i bought emotionally is something I will work out in time with the help of my friends in Christ who "buy the truth, and sell it not".

Thanks again Guys.

But really yes i was ranting and whining and venting. I hope I did not offend anyone.

No offense taken, Sort. And you're right, I don't know the details, and don't need to. I just saw you taking a direction that I myself have gone many times, and I know that for me, it feeds my resentment.

The thing that strikes me most is that you are also beating yourself up for your "mistakes". Witholding forgiveness from yourself.


That last part about forgiving sins applies not just to others, but to ourselves. When we refuse to forgive ourselves, we contine to hold onto the pain of separation from God. Letting go is very hard; so much of my "identity" is wrapped up in what I have done wrong, my pain, my bad habits. I think that is what is meant by dying to self, letting go of those things we think are who we are.

Nothing we can do today can change the past (I know, you know this. But do you KNOW it? I sure don't a lot of the time!). No amount of punishing ourselves, analyzing ourselves, or even trying to improve ourselves will ever change it. I get caught in this trap . . . as if by punishing myself or understanding the past, I can somehow redeem myself. The problem is that redeeming myself is not my job, not my side of the street, and actually has already been done by someone far more powerful than I will ever be. I may never fully understand the lessons of my mistakes. I may never fully get to know the "why". My hope is that through time I will gain ever deeper awareness. But that awareness is for God to give to me, in His time. For my part, it is best that I do what it takes to become open and willing to receive the awareness and in the mean time become better at following the directions He gives rather than relying on my own understanding.

My absolute favorite verse is "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your path." Even in my sinfulness, my willfulness, and my mistakes, I acknowledge him, and I have never been failed yet. It is a deep contentment knowing this, and experiencing it.

I get what you mean by knowing something or really knowing it. When you really know it you think, feel, respond, and base most of your actions on it being an absolute tangible thing as obviuos as a rock or stone would be.

This also is where we get into trouble when we expect people to do what they say in reguards to what they profess. They agree that the ideal is sound but they many times just give lip service to gain authority when later they back out of the commitment. They won't keep a commitment to thier own hurt because words are tools for manipulation to them. They sound good but they imply or even state they will enforce them when they have no intention of backing them up. Or they just are guilty of wishful thinking.. hard to tell.

That might be one of the main points to the question of the thread.

When we get hurt by others because we give them part of what we entrust God for, to take care of, to even nurture along with us as we grow together,(well thats the idea anyway)our heart. Then we experience pain of rejection along with whatever Gaslighting we accept as part of the punishment for not being perfect enough for them. (Another human obviuosly). We sometimes learn to react in response to another human being or emotioanally respond in situations,(triggers?), based on what we are used to. Like Past conditional response.
We are creatures of habit and ussually take the line of least resistance when it comes to how we change, or should I say why we change. Until something becomes so painful that we seek a way out ussually we remain the same. Hence the nessesity of tough love when we grow up and out of past comfortabiliy zones within ourselves.

We also need to have relationships that reflect honest balanced emotional responses. We get these examples from our parents and peers. We will learn what feels right by what reactions we get from them and our security lies in them accepting us/loving us so if they are unbalanced we will be also by learning from them what "feels" right.

Stockholm syndrome comes to mind when i think of how human beings teach love and proper accepted behavior. From a picture perfect household of parents who are doing the best they can to lovingly teach thier children to the twisted messed up parents who only seek to appease thier emotions selfishly without reguard for the children the result is the same. The first reaction emotionally,(trigger), causes a response emotionally that either feels foriegn and scary or familiar and comforting.

In either case we can draw upon God but its important that its God and not a personality, even a great personality, that we draw from. These words mean a lot to me...

2 Peter 2

18. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

But for us human beings seeking friends who we can accually talk to we are reduced to the Men and Women of God who can profess and carry out to the best of thier abilities His love for us and they bring with them thier own falibiliy because they are human. But we make a human connection with people who have empathy and we need to have those or we experience life alone.

If we are not believers we still believe in some type of system of behavior/morality that will reward us if we act correctly and we seek others who support that system of belief.

The point is that we need people to experience relationships and we will seek them out even if what we have for core triggers and emotional reactions are not in our best interest at the time. Sometimes returning to situations we thought we had escaped or were damaging habits we responded to in the past.

How does an individual learn not to fall into such things? Ok for one I would say they learn from thier mistakes as soon as they realize them. Then they suffer the pain and take responsibility for it. They forgive themselves for the mistake and realize that they need to change, They seek guidance, counsel, and practice changed behavior based on the realization that they are in charge.

All this is part of living and marriages are supposed to be built on the idea we will grow together in these ways rather than grow apart but we hold onto those emotional triggers and desires expecting them to stay the same and be frozen in time. Sometimes we want to change someone to fit what we ultimatly desire just to find out years later that we don't desire that person anymore or what we turned them into as they complied or we find ourselves rejected even though we did everything we were asked.

The problem with those emotions lie within us, There is a verse in scripture that goes,,"A three fold cord is not easily broken" meaning a braided rope but representing two people bonded together with Christ in the midst. We will never be perfect and as our journey in life shows us our mates will not either so the truth about this along with the forgiveness needed to let each other be human and fallible while still loving each other and seeking guidance is essential if we are to grow together as one.


More later..

I'm not so sure this is healthy thinking. Granted, I took it out of context.

My security does NOT come from someone else loving and accepting me. Because that gives another human being WAY too much power that is not really theirs. My security comes from loving and accepting myself.

I think triggers, and even emotions to some extent, are conditioned responses. Sometimes they are an early warning system for us, alerting us to danger. Sometimes they are a signal that we are in a place that is familiar and comfortable, even if the situation is ultimately unhealthy. We tend to attract the same learning opportunities over and over again, until we finally learn the lesson.

Should emotions and triggers be trusted? I don't know. But I know they shouldn't be discounted, especially if they are strong emotions. Any time I have a strong emotional reaction, that's a sign that I need to check my motives. More often than not it happens when I am living on autopilot instead of living intentionally each day.

I've found that the more intentionally I live, the fewer emotional triggers I have, and the less confusing. Instead of being the enemy, my triggers are my guides helping me navigate through murky water, foggy visibility, rocky shoreline. They are a reminder that I've been here before, and this time, I know tht I have a choice, when before, I didn't.

Put them in their place? Last time I checked, feelings were not something I could control, much less �put in their place�!

Predisposed to lie to us? Trust me, I do understand what you mean here, as I�ve believed it much of my life. In fact, I�ve lived much of my adult (if you can call it that) life AT WAR with my feelings because I thought they were liars. Feelings aren�t liars, they don�t have a conscience. They aren�t �the devil.� They are just a chemical/psychological response to a stimulus. And in that sense, they are always the raw, unfiltered truth. The fact that everyone operates to some degree on autopilot and often reacts to their feelings, and acts on them, sometimes in self-destructive and abusive ways, does not make the feelings themselves either evil or good. Feelings are amoral. Guns don�t kill people, people kill people. Feelings and triggers are not what get us into trouble; what gets us into trouble is not realizing that we have a choice.

Feeling never lie. It is we who lie to ourselves, and try to use our feelings to justify it.

We all make our share of both good and destructive choices, and in both cases, we use our feelings to justify it. I think we can agree that it�s not �right� to use my feelings to justify my negative choices. So I would contend that neither is it right to us my feelings to justify my positive choices. I trust all my feelings. I distrust ALL my justifications, especially the most logical ones. The devil is a lawyer

I agree the devil is a lawyer lol.


But I still say that sometimes, maybe I didn't make the sometimes clear, sometimes we need to put our feelings in place. yes we do it through rational thought but its still us in control.

Ussually its fear we can easily identify with this as it is related to thought. A decision to do something that has a chance of disaster but the knowledge that there is no other choice can be used to overcome fear.

Example I will give is climbing onto a roof. If you freeze up and cling to the roof and lie down many times you will slip off because there are no points of friction. If you think about that before you go up the ladder and continue to run the thought through your mind it can parylize you. . If you defy this thought process and the fear that comes with it and focus on why your up there while taking precautions you can work saftly . There is allways a way to overcome if you use your head.


Also if you find yourself feeling a little to familiar with someone you probably need to examine that and see what precautions you should be useing if its not appropiate. In that also fear of the consequences will guide you so then again objective thought wins out over feelings that might seem pleasent.


I think fear is the great motivator and to many are afraid of it. Fear of being alone, missing out on relationship, losing our lives all motivate us in positive ways . We just need to be taught how to think first and to be cautious about how we treat others and our intentions.


I know it would be great if we did everything ignoring our feelings and logically. I don't think that was Gods idea ofhow we would fellowship with Him though. He knew we would make mistakes and would suffer from them so he provided a way for us to reach him. As we learn from our painful mistakes we also learn we can't trust all of our emotional responses and we will be much better off rising above fear of death and Man. Its a life long process IMO.

I'm not saying ignore feelings. Just the opposite. Embrace them.

I don't think feelings have a "place" to be "put." They just are.

What you are talking about is actions. To feelings motivate our actions? Yes, both consciously and unconsciously. What you are saying is that we need to put our actions in their place.

If I have a fear of being alone, that fear could trigger me to marry someone I have doubts about, someone I'm not really in love with. My action. What I could have done was accepted that fear. Instead, I tried to change that fear by doing something against my better judgement, without really consulting God. I assumed that God must want it, because it was there in front of me, and since I didn't trust my feelings of past romantic love due to heartbreak, I trusted that my lack of romantic feelings was a GOOD thing!

What I've learned is that my feelings are to be trusted, acknowleged, and accepted. However, when it comes to acting on my feelings, I've learned that when I have a feeling, I should use it as a conversation opener with God. "God, I'm feeling BLANK and I don't know what to do. I think maybe I should do X . . . please either bless or block that course of action and help me to know what YOUR will is." Most of the time when I have a feeling I react from my own self-will and end up falling. But when I use my feelings as a vehicle for turning first to God, my feelings are my best friends. Even the ones that are "negative" like anger, resentment, lust. Those are the best ones of all, because those are the ones I have the least amount of power over, so they are also the ones that allow God's strength to shine through all the more when I lean on Him.

I love my feelings!!!!!! How amazing is that for me to say, me who has been at war with my feelings for so long! I am grateful for every feeling I have, because it is a chance for me to go to God and ask him for guidance on my actions!

This is interesting stuff.

I was going to get into the question of what is romantic love anyways and talk about how most of it is culture based and how we fall for people who fit into a specific personal niche in our imaginations.

I also TTT attempted to suck it up many times in my life by just denying pain and trading it for stubborn conviction that I would not be hurt anymore just because I said so.
Much of my pain was my fault because I was going to change things only God could change and take the beating from people while I became the bigger man. Lol. I just pictured myself as Adam Sandlers "Waterboy" Performing out of sheer anger and frustration. Its sadly true to an extent.

Question for anyone reading.. Have you ever just felt so alone and wondered why God allowed you to be there? Many of the self-esteem issues we suffer in have there reasons but things can escalate to a point where you can't seem to fight them anymore and you start to believe that all the negative thoughts you have about yourself must be true, or God is putting you through a trial for some yet unknown reason. When you are at that point you can actually even hate how you look in the mirror and wonder why you are so repulsive. I was like that a young man. Incredibly pathetic and alone. If there wasn't a God and some future reason for the place I found myself in then I would be better off dead. I remember at 25 telling myself if I did not have a stable carreer, have all my debts paid, established a relationship with my then 7 year old son and provided for him financially by the time I was 30 I would make sure I had good life insurance and leave this world quietly. Hopefully taking some slimey degenerate with me if it could be arranged. I have sunk that deep to accually think that way before. The only other option was that there was a reason God would allow a loser like me to live and he better reveal it to me soon. Show me the enemy and don't tell me its me and my shortcomings. Iv'e gotten enough of that crap from others.

Yeah I have had my moments of darkness too TTT. I thank God for staying my hand that I didn't kill someone before but at the same time the abuse I took from others while preaching understanding cost me a lot of self-respect as a Man. I figured God owed me big. Lol what arrogance huh?

On the other side of that lonliness you can tell yourself that you will end up like Job and all your losses will be returned twofold someday but I don't think its healthy to start thinking about how they will be returned and by what means. It can be an avenue of bitterness and judgement if you don't develop and maintain a relationship with God and forgiveness.


But there was a time when aching over my own failures and in my pride I thought God would give me a special partner in life where I would serve as a loving mate and that in some way, my past would serve to understand, help in forgiveness, and restore them. Someone who would also bring to me something I desparatly needed to be restored to what he made me to be. It would be an equal partnership where both would have authority and our gifts would bless each other as we held each other up.

To me that was romantic ...

I can also see that in behavioral science it is classified as co-dependant and the idea is we are supposed to be balanced without the need of support from anyone to be healthy. The focus in life is supposed to be that we do not get shaken by anyones betrayal and we should strive to obtain happiness and contentment without needing anyone. Its to bad most of us will never be that perfect and we have to deal with life as it is even with all our faults we come into relationships with.


Both have merit because even if we are strong most of the time there will be times of weakness and trials that will attempt to suck us dry.

I too tried to harden my heart in a way that when I felt pain from relationships I would grab the knife they stuck in and twist it while I smiled in thier face. because I thought there must be something wrong with me, I should be able to be fine without there love or respect, I had God didn't I? Of course this backfired on me as it was my attempt to change how God made me. I should have just waited and studied for understanding.

I think Jobs best gift was his restored relationship with God and the tangible things he was given stewardship over that had doubled were things added to him after he had found his way back.

I work with a guy who doesn't "feel" like most people do. As an example he recently lost his best friend, and misses the fun they had from time to time, but does not feel "sad" about it. He always scores well on "aptitude" tests because he doesn't let emotions get in the way of the "right" decision, and he is an extremely high performer on the job. And *HE'S* happy with his life. BUT no one really likes him. He thinks he's really a people person. Those that act like they so are typically networking (he's quite connected), and while I wouldn't be happy like that, *HE'S* quite pleased. I guess it all depends on what kind of life you want.

I totally agree that feelings "just are"...they aren't meant to be a barometer of anything, what gets us into trouble is giving feelings a responsibility they weren't meant to handle.
Have you read this thread?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2243454&nt=8&page=1
Mark1952 wrote some very informative stuff here. It helped me a lot about understanding triggers, what's going on in the brain.

Yeah daisy I can relate to that..

Kay i really like that thread and i need to study it again,more as it makes a lot of sense.

yup TTT I agree its not the feelings that cause the problems its the actions that we automatically "react" to fear with that we need to control if anything.

Over time and with the right guidance we can make rational realistic decisions and dismiss the "knee-jerk" responses we feel from fear whether its real or imagined.

I have been interested for years on how powerful of an influence the emotions are and what thier nature is.

Symbolism hea attributed them to having attributes like water. I understand that. The largest element on the planet which is present in just about everything while having the power to change even stone.

In the Bible Peter walked on the water when he kept his eyes on Christ and did not acknowledge the water. Its my understanding that he was a very passionate man and this symbolized that when he perceived and sought life outside his emotions he was able to rise above them. When he recognized he was overcoming these emotions he again fell to them and was engulfed by them mostly because he gave them more focus than Christ. He served his emotions he started to believe it was he who was rising above them instaed of his focus outside of the emotions.. At that time he lost sight of who he needed to serve in order to overcome them. It was part of his teaching.

I love the saying, (I don't know if it comes from a verse or not).

"Trust God for the consequences of your actions"

To me its a lighthouse if you find your value in the approval of God and believe that He truly loves and will protect you. If you suffer it was not Gods intention and even in suffering you serve His purpose. There is allways a way back from even the worst places you find yourself even if you brought on the problem yourself by poor information or selfish choices. Without consequences we are worse off than getting our way and if we acted correctly and were truly a victim, in the end His truth will win out.

The human mind is truly an amazing organisim with all the thoughts we attach our safty and value to a place where our fears can foster some realy strange attachments. I realized a long time ago that the more objective we are in the care of others the more probable we will be good friends to them. This sometimes translates to many that you don't care about them when you seem cold and aloof and don't aknowledge that what they feel is as important as they percieve it. Simple examples are childhood crushes or the need to be loved by others for self-worth.

The focus of this thread is to help us and myself understand how and why we develop emotional bonds to others that are unhealthy. Why are we attracted to others when we see that they are not healthy choices and how do we go about developing the ability to separate ourselves from those who purposly or not have triggered some emotional response inside us that invokes fear.

As far as I can tell it takes time, counsel, and the care of people who will love and respect you as God does whether they are a stated believer or not, because as long as they are practicing Gods mandates on how to love our fellow man they will work.

I want to thank all of you for listening to my rants and participating in my threads. This is a time of introspection for me in my life. Long overdue. I detached and was in plan A for so long much of who I was and wanted to be has been lost but because I have this place and the many other soursces of people and friends I am finding my way back.

So as far as this topic applies to myself. I found the most powerful trigger that has gotten me into relationships was the idea that my purpose was to save or protect someone. It started when i was small child and related strongly to how my relationship was with my Father and Mother. It was agravated by my surroundings and aquaintences. As hard as I prayed and as much as I studied, worked, and tried to please Dad he was a cold fish. I was told by Mom who stuck up for me that he had problems but to a little kid it feels like its thier fault when they are rejected. So everything I did was to fix myself and ultimatly fill the void my Dad had somehow.

Add to that when you don't feel worthy of standing up for yourself you are open to whomever makes themselves feel better by abusing you and I just didn't have a healthy self-image enough to fight back. On occasion I would but it was like I was all alone in the world and God, though I prayed to him constantly to show me what was wrong with me so I could fix it didn't hear me. I wanted to be connected to God and draw from him the strength to not live in fear of rejection of people but the people connection was kept from me and I didn't know why. I did not have an ability to reason this away at that young age so my greatest fear was to fail and hurt the others who must be rejecting me for a good reason. Why else would God allow me to feel this way? Everything I did was in an effort to be loved and prove myself worthy before God and Man. It was all about what I did to fix myself and becaome a man. You can imagine the scary and desparate things I did before I was 17.

One of my quests was to bring the love ofChrist to the neihbors. They were backwoods types who were happily ignorant and also were racially prejudiced while being bitterly envious of people who attended colledge or went to church. Unfortunatly thier son was the closest in age to me and because his Dad only worked sporadically and they were sqauaters who didn't pay rent of morgage I spent a lot of time with them. My father was a work-a-holic who didn't want to spend time with his children. My neighbor did spend time with his, but I was the brunt of jokes to him as he thought my "booklearning" and "God" was all a joke. They were childish and vindictive people who lived in a world that fostered violence and hate. Once they laughed together with his brother when they ran over a neibors dog just to get even with him for some imagined attack. Thier son was so prone to rage that he showed up pointing a loaded twelve gauge in my face because I agreed with the neihbors kid on a football score. I was 12 and he was 10. Many times would thier son go into thier backyard and shoot his Dads 12 GA in the air when thier was a nieborhood arguement and no my Dad would not press chargesand the town Cop never enforced the law. Where was my protection? Where was God in all of this?

Every one of my teachers told my parents how smart I was and that I could go far if i would apply myself. I worked hard for my Dad and shared his dream of us owning our own house he wanted to build. I learned not to ask Dad about things cuz most of the time he would get frustrated and tell me to just shut up and get back to work, something that is certainly practical in life when you need to get things done but certainly there should have been a time to talk? My Dad was a product of his own upbringing working on a farm and coming from a rural background. I would have been fine with that if not for even his own Mom and Dad having a problem with how he acted. They and His brother were more balanced and my Dad was messed up. Still my fault?


Yes I have seen past all that and understand why I grew up guilty and with low self esteem. My heart has gone out to those who have suffered the same lonliness and desparation. God has given me victory in many ways and at times in my life I was able to fight off those negative thoughts and feelings as I imagined instaed what Gods purpose for me was based on who He said was to Him. God gave us that imagination to visualize what we need so we can have a relationship with truth IMO.

Still I have to be very careful that the old demon of guilt and shame does not become my primary motivation for action and I wonder how strongly it has been embedded in me as a child. It has influenced me in my relationshipsmost of my life. Sometimes in a balanced healthy way but sometimes not. But like a thorn in my side it will allways be with me.

That is a heartbreaking story, Sort.


I've never thought about it that way before. I'm not sure I agree, but I sure would like to. The reason I DON'T tend to agree is that I believe I don't often really know what I need, even when I think I do. I think I need a cookie, when I really need a carrot. I think I need a loving embrace, when I really need a good kick in the pants. In the bigger spiritual picture, I think I need a fulfilling relationship when what I really need is the growth opportunities (of conflict and dissapointment) which are at times painful. Ultimately I need a relationship with God, and I have come to believe that he will use any means necessary, even the worst actions of others, to bring us closer to him. Some of my worst relationships have been what have brought me closest to my God. And that is the ultimate goal of relationships, both good and bad, healthy and unhealthy, with our parents, siblings, spouses, children, friends, etc. The relationship is just a means to an end. It is a sacred means, even in the worst of circumstances, because it is what brings us to the arms of God.

Yeah but as I identified the fact that my own self-image and lack of confidance was not accually an attack on me. but a reflection of each of the other persons fears, I had what I guess you could call a revelation of sorts at 17.

I realized a long time ago as a yougster that fear was my enemy. It was what I identified as the major reason for my failure to connect like everyone else. It was also the enemy of my father and mother and then I reaized it was what Christ came to conquer and give us victory over. Fear and ignorance. Everything else could be explained away and justified by the law but fear of death was something that caused us so much misery in how we lived our lives.It was the most important thing he gave us. We can live right and love each other reguardless of the consequences man may bestow upon us because even in death he is there for us and we are not alone. There is so much God teaches us but to me to live without fear of man, (Its a snare), is the best for me and at that time, it was my worse enemy.

At 17 I still felt like a failure and my spirit was desparation and shame. It was this that was being healed as my fiances love for me and objective view of who I really was healing my self-image. Her Mom also was a wise woman and saw me as a prince who thought he was a frog.

I had hooked myself up with some really sick people at the beginning of high school and fallen into heavy drugs and gang behavior mostly because I was desparate to feel frendship, connection to people or fight my way to self-respect.Now I saw that I had just been a victim of my own distorted self-image and how I allowed others to control who I thought I was. The leagalism of the word of God was not the answer, the spirit was, and that spirit was not fear.

I saw that my affiliation with gang mentality, getting shot, trying to be billy baddazz and thinking I was some kind of free spirit rebel was childish, selfish emotion and the men who died for our freedom and worked in factorys happily sacrificing for others were the real heroes. I was ashamed of myself, understood how i got that way, but I knew it was a door to change, grow up and become a man. One not afraid to love.

When I contemplated sitting in my car one day why I was as screwed up as I was and realized the many people who had attacked me personnally or ran me down, my Dad based on what he valued and even my Mom in her own way because of her inability to understand my issues,(depession, self esteem), pretty much caused her to say"I don't know" and well it left me with the continuing question "Why do I feel so bad". Then add to that how I let people push me around and the critisims of others that hurt me because I had no armor of self respect. I did not value myself. I wasn't worth the trouble to fight for. In my way i did many things to prove to myself I was worthy and fought many battles within and tried to prove to myself that I had guts and was not a baby. It all smacked of insecurity.

If you add them all up. Understand that they came from people that had thier own self-image issues and fears, and realized that it was just thier flawed point of view, it was a spirit of intimidation and control and not one of support and love.

So where did this spirit come from? This one born of fear and insecurity which attacked and degraded other people, ( but me ATM), who submitted themselves in humility as they despartatly wanted to earn respect and feel self worth? To feel safe?

I know I was a seriuos individual and much of what i suffered was through my own imagination as a child and even how seriuos I felt my role was supposed to be. I still was determined to live a better life and be more balanced and happy.

But if I looked at all the negative attacks I experienced from others and realized they had no idea how they effected me or to say their was no colaboration to run me down as a group and only a paraniod person would think that.

Also add to that if they were interested in helping and supporting me they would have acted differently. In other words if they acted out of love instead of thier own shortsighted bondage to fear and what was in thier minds they valued. Well that would have fostered a different spirit now wouldn't it?

Yes I took it to personal, It had been something that had built since I was a child and now I was seeing how it was built. It was me, hanging myself on a cross of sacrifice, to have a relationship with people who did not love me as much as themselves. What I wanted was relationship with people and I was despartaly needing a relationship with Christ so I could see the love of God.


But that spirit, the one that accused me of failure and incompetance, not collectivly from people but the one I accepted generally from people wrapped up in thier own lives and ignorance with fear. That spirit was to me just what I could best describe in my head as hate. Satan if you will, a spirit designed for my destruction to rob my life of joy, peace, and prosperity while I had positive relationships with people.


So in that revelation, I asked myself,"If this spirit which has hurt me exists, even in the last 5 years when I had given up on God protecting me and was almost an athiest now, If this spirit expressed though man based on fear and paranoia and the lack of the ability for love and support of fellow man, is what God calls Satan, Then is it possible that God exists?"


So yes it was a sad story TTT but God came though a the end. The experience was humbling and strenthened me as i realized the actions of others which were based on fear were not ones that God desired for us, especcially the ones we take agaist others. That God expressed himself through people, His nature was present even if others did not recognize when they loved and supported it was Him and His character

My convictions would hold me through many tough times in the years to come and changed my life. It was more than morality and whatever that means in the results we see in human behavior. I am still on that journey as I desire to be closer on a personal level in my heart and derive my identity from Him so my actions will have the bravery and convictions that can only come from Love. Life has definatly been a lesson in "The wisdom to know the difference" of what I can change and what to accept as His job. I still struggle with the impulse to hang myself on the cross and guilt and shame of failure but in time and reflection with Gods guidance I am improving my human condition. Its no surprize that its through his people.

In later years I would tell my children that many men who were kind and loving people had gone to war to protect the ones they loved. There would allways be war or "politics at a different level" ,(not sure what the saying is), but there are times when you need to fight for freedom. The sacrifices of men who go to war, physical life and emotional for our freedom are preciuos gifts that need to be honored. Even if what prompts the war is the weakness of mankind

Well, I needed to vent this, and even in this old thread if nessesary, because of its theme and where I am tonight.

I am moving out of the house where I have been for 7 years, the longest place i have stayed since childhood, and the place I came to when we needed to find a place to get WW off of the streets.

I am packing, and a lot of things triggered me in the last two years as I went thru them, For the first couple of months after W passed away, I could not even throw away an old magazine that she wrote on, I have improved over time, its been two years, and I am slowly putting things behind me and functioning much better. Slow but sure..

I was in the kitchen tonight, and packing things up, throwing some out, and what-not, and it was really hard, then I realized why. This was W department, cooking and supporting the family domestically, in the good times and with the hopes and dreams of the future and dues paid for the present. It reminded me of her and that she was gone, never realizing the dreams we had at one time, and at one time they were solid and strong. We were strong people who loved our children and others, and supported each other.

Granted the relationship had many problems, but like all relationships it had potential, and it allways seemed like someday...and of course..when thats all you have, it is everything.

It opened the wound raw again, and I know I will be better once I get out of here, because of all the triggers this place has to death and depression. I would wish I was strong and resilient enough to overcome them, but we rent anyways, and its time me and my sons move on to our own places.

Mom was at one time allways looking out for all of us, it was her part of the team effort, and it was a glue to our family, part of that fabric we all aspire to, strength in adversity, caring for each other through everything, and a home. This place was a chance for her to come back from the streets and the despair she was suffering, along with reminders of her deteriorsation from all she aspired to at one time.

I was the workhorse who provided the roof and she was the home. Even when things were not good they were better than many other places to be, children friends and family. She was great as a mother, and at one time a good wife and friend. I am trying to remember her that way, in the truth as I saw she could live in, if she chose to. I want to remember her well, and fairly, but when I have to deal with the senseless loss, the easy way is to be angry at her.

I hope to honor the memory of her potential and gifts, without disregaurding her bad choices as part of the reality of the tradgedy of the loss to me and the children, and to everyone who loved her.

Those damned triggers...guess it is time to stop trying to bear it all, and expect the worse, and look forward.

I was hoping this would help me if I put it down in writing, as well as I am asking God for a break, and strength, to move onto better days. I need it as well as my kids need to see it also. But me first God, I think that is the answer I need and who to go to with the questions.

Constant,
I wish you well in your move, maybe a fresh start is best. Triggers can really bring us back to the time and place where we were when it happened...it's good to have as few of them as possible.