Put them in their place? Last time I checked, feelings were not something I could control, much less �put in their place�!

Predisposed to lie to us? Trust me, I do understand what you mean here, as I�ve believed it much of my life. In fact, I�ve lived much of my adult (if you can call it that) life AT WAR with my feelings because I thought they were liars. Feelings aren�t liars, they don�t have a conscience. They aren�t �the devil.� They are just a chemical/psychological response to a stimulus. And in that sense, they are always the raw, unfiltered truth. The fact that everyone operates to some degree on autopilot and often reacts to their feelings, and acts on them, sometimes in self-destructive and abusive ways, does not make the feelings themselves either evil or good. Feelings are amoral. Guns don�t kill people, people kill people. Feelings and triggers are not what get us into trouble; what gets us into trouble is not realizing that we have a choice.

Feeling never lie. It is we who lie to ourselves, and try to use our feelings to justify it.

We all make our share of both good and destructive choices, and in both cases, we use our feelings to justify it. I think we can agree that it�s not �right� to use my feelings to justify my negative choices. So I would contend that neither is it right to us my feelings to justify my positive choices. I trust all my feelings. I distrust ALL my justifications, especially the most logical ones. The devil is a lawyer

I agree the devil is a lawyer lol.


But I still say that sometimes, maybe I didn't make the sometimes clear, sometimes we need to put our feelings in place. yes we do it through rational thought but its still us in control.

Ussually its fear we can easily identify with this as it is related to thought. A decision to do something that has a chance of disaster but the knowledge that there is no other choice can be used to overcome fear.

Example I will give is climbing onto a roof. If you freeze up and cling to the roof and lie down many times you will slip off because there are no points of friction. If you think about that before you go up the ladder and continue to run the thought through your mind it can parylize you. . If you defy this thought process and the fear that comes with it and focus on why your up there while taking precautions you can work saftly . There is allways a way to overcome if you use your head.


Also if you find yourself feeling a little to familiar with someone you probably need to examine that and see what precautions you should be useing if its not appropiate. In that also fear of the consequences will guide you so then again objective thought wins out over feelings that might seem pleasent.


I think fear is the great motivator and to many are afraid of it. Fear of being alone, missing out on relationship, losing our lives all motivate us in positive ways . We just need to be taught how to think first and to be cautious about how we treat others and our intentions.


I know it would be great if we did everything ignoring our feelings and logically. I don't think that was Gods idea ofhow we would fellowship with Him though. He knew we would make mistakes and would suffer from them so he provided a way for us to reach him. As we learn from our painful mistakes we also learn we can't trust all of our emotional responses and we will be much better off rising above fear of death and Man. Its a life long process IMO.

I'm not saying ignore feelings. Just the opposite. Embrace them.

I don't think feelings have a "place" to be "put." They just are.

What you are talking about is actions. To feelings motivate our actions? Yes, both consciously and unconsciously. What you are saying is that we need to put our actions in their place.

If I have a fear of being alone, that fear could trigger me to marry someone I have doubts about, someone I'm not really in love with. My action. What I could have done was accepted that fear. Instead, I tried to change that fear by doing something against my better judgement, without really consulting God. I assumed that God must want it, because it was there in front of me, and since I didn't trust my feelings of past romantic love due to heartbreak, I trusted that my lack of romantic feelings was a GOOD thing!

What I've learned is that my feelings are to be trusted, acknowleged, and accepted. However, when it comes to acting on my feelings, I've learned that when I have a feeling, I should use it as a conversation opener with God. "God, I'm feeling BLANK and I don't know what to do. I think maybe I should do X . . . please either bless or block that course of action and help me to know what YOUR will is." Most of the time when I have a feeling I react from my own self-will and end up falling. But when I use my feelings as a vehicle for turning first to God, my feelings are my best friends. Even the ones that are "negative" like anger, resentment, lust. Those are the best ones of all, because those are the ones I have the least amount of power over, so they are also the ones that allow God's strength to shine through all the more when I lean on Him.

I love my feelings!!!!!! How amazing is that for me to say, me who has been at war with my feelings for so long! I am grateful for every feeling I have, because it is a chance for me to go to God and ask him for guidance on my actions!

This is interesting stuff.

I was going to get into the question of what is romantic love anyways and talk about how most of it is culture based and how we fall for people who fit into a specific personal niche in our imaginations.

I also TTT attempted to suck it up many times in my life by just denying pain and trading it for stubborn conviction that I would not be hurt anymore just because I said so.
Much of my pain was my fault because I was going to change things only God could change and take the beating from people while I became the bigger man. Lol. I just pictured myself as Adam Sandlers "Waterboy" Performing out of sheer anger and frustration. Its sadly true to an extent.

Question for anyone reading.. Have you ever just felt so alone and wondered why God allowed you to be there? Many of the self-esteem issues we suffer in have there reasons but things can escalate to a point where you can't seem to fight them anymore and you start to believe that all the negative thoughts you have about yourself must be true, or God is putting you through a trial for some yet unknown reason. When you are at that point you can actually even hate how you look in the mirror and wonder why you are so repulsive. I was like that a young man. Incredibly pathetic and alone. If there wasn't a God and some future reason for the place I found myself in then I would be better off dead. I remember at 25 telling myself if I did not have a stable carreer, have all my debts paid, established a relationship with my then 7 year old son and provided for him financially by the time I was 30 I would make sure I had good life insurance and leave this world quietly. Hopefully taking some slimey degenerate with me if it could be arranged. I have sunk that deep to accually think that way before. The only other option was that there was a reason God would allow a loser like me to live and he better reveal it to me soon. Show me the enemy and don't tell me its me and my shortcomings. Iv'e gotten enough of that crap from others.

Yeah I have had my moments of darkness too TTT. I thank God for staying my hand that I didn't kill someone before but at the same time the abuse I took from others while preaching understanding cost me a lot of self-respect as a Man. I figured God owed me big. Lol what arrogance huh?

On the other side of that lonliness you can tell yourself that you will end up like Job and all your losses will be returned twofold someday but I don't think its healthy to start thinking about how they will be returned and by what means. It can be an avenue of bitterness and judgement if you don't develop and maintain a relationship with God and forgiveness.


But there was a time when aching over my own failures and in my pride I thought God would give me a special partner in life where I would serve as a loving mate and that in some way, my past would serve to understand, help in forgiveness, and restore them. Someone who would also bring to me something I desparatly needed to be restored to what he made me to be. It would be an equal partnership where both would have authority and our gifts would bless each other as we held each other up.

To me that was romantic ...

I can also see that in behavioral science it is classified as co-dependant and the idea is we are supposed to be balanced without the need of support from anyone to be healthy. The focus in life is supposed to be that we do not get shaken by anyones betrayal and we should strive to obtain happiness and contentment without needing anyone. Its to bad most of us will never be that perfect and we have to deal with life as it is even with all our faults we come into relationships with.


Both have merit because even if we are strong most of the time there will be times of weakness and trials that will attempt to suck us dry.

I too tried to harden my heart in a way that when I felt pain from relationships I would grab the knife they stuck in and twist it while I smiled in thier face. because I thought there must be something wrong with me, I should be able to be fine without there love or respect, I had God didn't I? Of course this backfired on me as it was my attempt to change how God made me. I should have just waited and studied for understanding.

I think Jobs best gift was his restored relationship with God and the tangible things he was given stewardship over that had doubled were things added to him after he had found his way back.

I work with a guy who doesn't "feel" like most people do. As an example he recently lost his best friend, and misses the fun they had from time to time, but does not feel "sad" about it. He always scores well on "aptitude" tests because he doesn't let emotions get in the way of the "right" decision, and he is an extremely high performer on the job. And *HE'S* happy with his life. BUT no one really likes him. He thinks he's really a people person. Those that act like they so are typically networking (he's quite connected), and while I wouldn't be happy like that, *HE'S* quite pleased. I guess it all depends on what kind of life you want.

I totally agree that feelings "just are"...they aren't meant to be a barometer of anything, what gets us into trouble is giving feelings a responsibility they weren't meant to handle.
Have you read this thread?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2243454&nt=8&page=1
Mark1952 wrote some very informative stuff here. It helped me a lot about understanding triggers, what's going on in the brain.

Yeah daisy I can relate to that..

Kay i really like that thread and i need to study it again,more as it makes a lot of sense.

yup TTT I agree its not the feelings that cause the problems its the actions that we automatically "react" to fear with that we need to control if anything.

Over time and with the right guidance we can make rational realistic decisions and dismiss the "knee-jerk" responses we feel from fear whether its real or imagined.

I have been interested for years on how powerful of an influence the emotions are and what thier nature is.

Symbolism hea attributed them to having attributes like water. I understand that. The largest element on the planet which is present in just about everything while having the power to change even stone.

In the Bible Peter walked on the water when he kept his eyes on Christ and did not acknowledge the water. Its my understanding that he was a very passionate man and this symbolized that when he perceived and sought life outside his emotions he was able to rise above them. When he recognized he was overcoming these emotions he again fell to them and was engulfed by them mostly because he gave them more focus than Christ. He served his emotions he started to believe it was he who was rising above them instaed of his focus outside of the emotions.. At that time he lost sight of who he needed to serve in order to overcome them. It was part of his teaching.

I love the saying, (I don't know if it comes from a verse or not).

"Trust God for the consequences of your actions"

To me its a lighthouse if you find your value in the approval of God and believe that He truly loves and will protect you. If you suffer it was not Gods intention and even in suffering you serve His purpose. There is allways a way back from even the worst places you find yourself even if you brought on the problem yourself by poor information or selfish choices. Without consequences we are worse off than getting our way and if we acted correctly and were truly a victim, in the end His truth will win out.

The human mind is truly an amazing organisim with all the thoughts we attach our safty and value to a place where our fears can foster some realy strange attachments. I realized a long time ago that the more objective we are in the care of others the more probable we will be good friends to them. This sometimes translates to many that you don't care about them when you seem cold and aloof and don't aknowledge that what they feel is as important as they percieve it. Simple examples are childhood crushes or the need to be loved by others for self-worth.

The focus of this thread is to help us and myself understand how and why we develop emotional bonds to others that are unhealthy. Why are we attracted to others when we see that they are not healthy choices and how do we go about developing the ability to separate ourselves from those who purposly or not have triggered some emotional response inside us that invokes fear.

As far as I can tell it takes time, counsel, and the care of people who will love and respect you as God does whether they are a stated believer or not, because as long as they are practicing Gods mandates on how to love our fellow man they will work.

I want to thank all of you for listening to my rants and participating in my threads. This is a time of introspection for me in my life. Long overdue. I detached and was in plan A for so long much of who I was and wanted to be has been lost but because I have this place and the many other soursces of people and friends I am finding my way back.

So as far as this topic applies to myself. I found the most powerful trigger that has gotten me into relationships was the idea that my purpose was to save or protect someone. It started when i was small child and related strongly to how my relationship was with my Father and Mother. It was agravated by my surroundings and aquaintences. As hard as I prayed and as much as I studied, worked, and tried to please Dad he was a cold fish. I was told by Mom who stuck up for me that he had problems but to a little kid it feels like its thier fault when they are rejected. So everything I did was to fix myself and ultimatly fill the void my Dad had somehow.

Add to that when you don't feel worthy of standing up for yourself you are open to whomever makes themselves feel better by abusing you and I just didn't have a healthy self-image enough to fight back. On occasion I would but it was like I was all alone in the world and God, though I prayed to him constantly to show me what was wrong with me so I could fix it didn't hear me. I wanted to be connected to God and draw from him the strength to not live in fear of rejection of people but the people connection was kept from me and I didn't know why. I did not have an ability to reason this away at that young age so my greatest fear was to fail and hurt the others who must be rejecting me for a good reason. Why else would God allow me to feel this way? Everything I did was in an effort to be loved and prove myself worthy before God and Man. It was all about what I did to fix myself and becaome a man. You can imagine the scary and desparate things I did before I was 17.

One of my quests was to bring the love ofChrist to the neihbors. They were backwoods types who were happily ignorant and also were racially prejudiced while being bitterly envious of people who attended colledge or went to church. Unfortunatly thier son was the closest in age to me and because his Dad only worked sporadically and they were sqauaters who didn't pay rent of morgage I spent a lot of time with them. My father was a work-a-holic who didn't want to spend time with his children. My neighbor did spend time with his, but I was the brunt of jokes to him as he thought my "booklearning" and "God" was all a joke. They were childish and vindictive people who lived in a world that fostered violence and hate. Once they laughed together with his brother when they ran over a neibors dog just to get even with him for some imagined attack. Thier son was so prone to rage that he showed up pointing a loaded twelve gauge in my face because I agreed with the neihbors kid on a football score. I was 12 and he was 10. Many times would thier son go into thier backyard and shoot his Dads 12 GA in the air when thier was a nieborhood arguement and no my Dad would not press chargesand the town Cop never enforced the law. Where was my protection? Where was God in all of this?

Every one of my teachers told my parents how smart I was and that I could go far if i would apply myself. I worked hard for my Dad and shared his dream of us owning our own house he wanted to build. I learned not to ask Dad about things cuz most of the time he would get frustrated and tell me to just shut up and get back to work, something that is certainly practical in life when you need to get things done but certainly there should have been a time to talk? My Dad was a product of his own upbringing working on a farm and coming from a rural background. I would have been fine with that if not for even his own Mom and Dad having a problem with how he acted. They and His brother were more balanced and my Dad was messed up. Still my fault?


Yes I have seen past all that and understand why I grew up guilty and with low self esteem. My heart has gone out to those who have suffered the same lonliness and desparation. God has given me victory in many ways and at times in my life I was able to fight off those negative thoughts and feelings as I imagined instaed what Gods purpose for me was based on who He said was to Him. God gave us that imagination to visualize what we need so we can have a relationship with truth IMO.

Still I have to be very careful that the old demon of guilt and shame does not become my primary motivation for action and I wonder how strongly it has been embedded in me as a child. It has influenced me in my relationshipsmost of my life. Sometimes in a balanced healthy way but sometimes not. But like a thorn in my side it will allways be with me.

That is a heartbreaking story, Sort.


I've never thought about it that way before. I'm not sure I agree, but I sure would like to. The reason I DON'T tend to agree is that I believe I don't often really know what I need, even when I think I do. I think I need a cookie, when I really need a carrot. I think I need a loving embrace, when I really need a good kick in the pants. In the bigger spiritual picture, I think I need a fulfilling relationship when what I really need is the growth opportunities (of conflict and dissapointment) which are at times painful. Ultimately I need a relationship with God, and I have come to believe that he will use any means necessary, even the worst actions of others, to bring us closer to him. Some of my worst relationships have been what have brought me closest to my God. And that is the ultimate goal of relationships, both good and bad, healthy and unhealthy, with our parents, siblings, spouses, children, friends, etc. The relationship is just a means to an end. It is a sacred means, even in the worst of circumstances, because it is what brings us to the arms of God.

Yeah but as I identified the fact that my own self-image and lack of confidance was not accually an attack on me. but a reflection of each of the other persons fears, I had what I guess you could call a revelation of sorts at 17.

I realized a long time ago as a yougster that fear was my enemy. It was what I identified as the major reason for my failure to connect like everyone else. It was also the enemy of my father and mother and then I reaized it was what Christ came to conquer and give us victory over. Fear and ignorance. Everything else could be explained away and justified by the law but fear of death was something that caused us so much misery in how we lived our lives.It was the most important thing he gave us. We can live right and love each other reguardless of the consequences man may bestow upon us because even in death he is there for us and we are not alone. There is so much God teaches us but to me to live without fear of man, (Its a snare), is the best for me and at that time, it was my worse enemy.

At 17 I still felt like a failure and my spirit was desparation and shame. It was this that was being healed as my fiances love for me and objective view of who I really was healing my self-image. Her Mom also was a wise woman and saw me as a prince who thought he was a frog.

I had hooked myself up with some really sick people at the beginning of high school and fallen into heavy drugs and gang behavior mostly because I was desparate to feel frendship, connection to people or fight my way to self-respect.Now I saw that I had just been a victim of my own distorted self-image and how I allowed others to control who I thought I was. The leagalism of the word of God was not the answer, the spirit was, and that spirit was not fear.

I saw that my affiliation with gang mentality, getting shot, trying to be billy baddazz and thinking I was some kind of free spirit rebel was childish, selfish emotion and the men who died for our freedom and worked in factorys happily sacrificing for others were the real heroes. I was ashamed of myself, understood how i got that way, but I knew it was a door to change, grow up and become a man. One not afraid to love.

When I contemplated sitting in my car one day why I was as screwed up as I was and realized the many people who had attacked me personnally or ran me down, my Dad based on what he valued and even my Mom in her own way because of her inability to understand my issues,(depession, self esteem), pretty much caused her to say"I don't know" and well it left me with the continuing question "Why do I feel so bad". Then add to that how I let people push me around and the critisims of others that hurt me because I had no armor of self respect. I did not value myself. I wasn't worth the trouble to fight for. In my way i did many things to prove to myself I was worthy and fought many battles within and tried to prove to myself that I had guts and was not a baby. It all smacked of insecurity.

If you add them all up. Understand that they came from people that had thier own self-image issues and fears, and realized that it was just thier flawed point of view, it was a spirit of intimidation and control and not one of support and love.

So where did this spirit come from? This one born of fear and insecurity which attacked and degraded other people, ( but me ATM), who submitted themselves in humility as they despartatly wanted to earn respect and feel self worth? To feel safe?

I know I was a seriuos individual and much of what i suffered was through my own imagination as a child and even how seriuos I felt my role was supposed to be. I still was determined to live a better life and be more balanced and happy.

But if I looked at all the negative attacks I experienced from others and realized they had no idea how they effected me or to say their was no colaboration to run me down as a group and only a paraniod person would think that.

Also add to that if they were interested in helping and supporting me they would have acted differently. In other words if they acted out of love instead of thier own shortsighted bondage to fear and what was in thier minds they valued. Well that would have fostered a different spirit now wouldn't it?

Yes I took it to personal, It had been something that had built since I was a child and now I was seeing how it was built. It was me, hanging myself on a cross of sacrifice, to have a relationship with people who did not love me as much as themselves. What I wanted was relationship with people and I was despartaly needing a relationship with Christ so I could see the love of God.


But that spirit, the one that accused me of failure and incompetance, not collectivly from people but the one I accepted generally from people wrapped up in thier own lives and ignorance with fear. That spirit was to me just what I could best describe in my head as hate. Satan if you will, a spirit designed for my destruction to rob my life of joy, peace, and prosperity while I had positive relationships with people.


So in that revelation, I asked myself,"If this spirit which has hurt me exists, even in the last 5 years when I had given up on God protecting me and was almost an athiest now, If this spirit expressed though man based on fear and paranoia and the lack of the ability for love and support of fellow man, is what God calls Satan, Then is it possible that God exists?"


So yes it was a sad story TTT but God came though a the end. The experience was humbling and strenthened me as i realized the actions of others which were based on fear were not ones that God desired for us, especcially the ones we take agaist others. That God expressed himself through people, His nature was present even if others did not recognize when they loved and supported it was Him and His character

My convictions would hold me through many tough times in the years to come and changed my life. It was more than morality and whatever that means in the results we see in human behavior. I am still on that journey as I desire to be closer on a personal level in my heart and derive my identity from Him so my actions will have the bravery and convictions that can only come from Love. Life has definatly been a lesson in "The wisdom to know the difference" of what I can change and what to accept as His job. I still struggle with the impulse to hang myself on the cross and guilt and shame of failure but in time and reflection with Gods guidance I am improving my human condition. Its no surprize that its through his people.

In later years I would tell my children that many men who were kind and loving people had gone to war to protect the ones they loved. There would allways be war or "politics at a different level" ,(not sure what the saying is), but there are times when you need to fight for freedom. The sacrifices of men who go to war, physical life and emotional for our freedom are preciuos gifts that need to be honored. Even if what prompts the war is the weakness of mankind

Well, I needed to vent this, and even in this old thread if nessesary, because of its theme and where I am tonight.

I am moving out of the house where I have been for 7 years, the longest place i have stayed since childhood, and the place I came to when we needed to find a place to get WW off of the streets.

I am packing, and a lot of things triggered me in the last two years as I went thru them, For the first couple of months after W passed away, I could not even throw away an old magazine that she wrote on, I have improved over time, its been two years, and I am slowly putting things behind me and functioning much better. Slow but sure..

I was in the kitchen tonight, and packing things up, throwing some out, and what-not, and it was really hard, then I realized why. This was W department, cooking and supporting the family domestically, in the good times and with the hopes and dreams of the future and dues paid for the present. It reminded me of her and that she was gone, never realizing the dreams we had at one time, and at one time they were solid and strong. We were strong people who loved our children and others, and supported each other.

Granted the relationship had many problems, but like all relationships it had potential, and it allways seemed like someday...and of course..when thats all you have, it is everything.

It opened the wound raw again, and I know I will be better once I get out of here, because of all the triggers this place has to death and depression. I would wish I was strong and resilient enough to overcome them, but we rent anyways, and its time me and my sons move on to our own places.

Mom was at one time allways looking out for all of us, it was her part of the team effort, and it was a glue to our family, part of that fabric we all aspire to, strength in adversity, caring for each other through everything, and a home. This place was a chance for her to come back from the streets and the despair she was suffering, along with reminders of her deteriorsation from all she aspired to at one time.

I was the workhorse who provided the roof and she was the home. Even when things were not good they were better than many other places to be, children friends and family. She was great as a mother, and at one time a good wife and friend. I am trying to remember her that way, in the truth as I saw she could live in, if she chose to. I want to remember her well, and fairly, but when I have to deal with the senseless loss, the easy way is to be angry at her.

I hope to honor the memory of her potential and gifts, without disregaurding her bad choices as part of the reality of the tradgedy of the loss to me and the children, and to everyone who loved her.

Those damned triggers...guess it is time to stop trying to bear it all, and expect the worse, and look forward.

I was hoping this would help me if I put it down in writing, as well as I am asking God for a break, and strength, to move onto better days. I need it as well as my kids need to see it also. But me first God, I think that is the answer I need and who to go to with the questions.

Constant,
I wish you well in your move, maybe a fresh start is best. Triggers can really bring us back to the time and place where we were when it happened...it's good to have as few of them as possible.