These scientists don't think so:
Can Men and Women Be "Just Friends"

My question is about the dating scene. Since my divorce, I have gathered a suprising number of male friends (opposite sex). From my POV they are "just" friends - and I have clarified this point often (sometimes ad nauseum with a few more persistent gents). I often bump into their desire to be "more."

And yet I know some of us talk on the dating forum about being 'just friends' with opposite sex folks, for "practice" or whatever.

I really like hanging out with single guys. They are fun, have an interesting perspective, and I can just relax and joke around. Am I kidding myself that we can be "just friends?" Should I begin eyeing my FB and work buddies with suspicion?

Or just relax and enjoy it for now?

I don't think so.

I just realized that I asked 3 questions in a row. Oops.

Which question were you answering, Jedi?

Nope!

It's really simple:

If you have a friend, they are meeting some of your emotional needs. Emotional needs met by the same sex can be platonic, but needs met by the opposite sex tend to grow.

Your top emotional need with these guys is IC. They are happy to met your need, but they are ultimately looking to get their emotional needs met to. I'll give you one guess as to what that is.

ak

Hmmmm....Physical Attractiveness?
Domestic Support?
Admiration?
Recreational Companionship?

Oh....THAT one!

You can if you want, but know that they are interested in you.

Personally, once a girl says we are just friends, I move on unless I have a very good reason to believe there could be more despite what she says.

The reason is simple, after the affair I'm not interested in anything but a safe and secure relationship and a woman with a lot of male friends won't give that to me, and because it will distract me from looking for a woman that can meet my needs.

You crack me up every time!

This bums me out, because I feel - deep down - that I'd like to be friends. (Did'ya read the article? Where women really wanted to be platonic friends, but the guys really didn't?)

Oh well. Dang biology.

Ok, I admit it, I didn't read the article. I already knew the answer.

I'll try to look at it later tonight.

I feel the same way.
There's been a lot of talk about opposite sex friendships lately and it seemed to start when a poster was on the show.
He wrote to Dr Harley because he was approaching mid life and wanted a marriage. I think he was previously married. Harley recommended that the man try to get female friendships so he could learn how to communicate with the opposite sex.

He also said that when he found the right woman he would need to end those friendships.

What value is a friendship where it could be terminated in a week or two because she gets a boyfriend?
I would rather have a man as a friend that would have my back.

Oh and Harley has mentioned the movie Harry Met Sally as a good example of how men and women can't just be friends

I'd like to mix my current perspective/experience in here as well.

I've been lurking among these threads since January, around the time I ended a 9-month dating relationship, after taking the email advice of Dr.Harley that she may not be right for me. As you all can guess, he was right.

Since then, I committed myself to taking a year off from dating, which has been nothing short of amazing in helping me understand what I've been doing wrong, what it is I'm looking for, and what I have to offer.

As such, during this time, I have grown to become good friends with a number of girls at church, and being unable to date them has allowed me to learn how to actually be friends with them. This is something, I feel, I had never really learned to do before. Which is both sad and exciting.

But as I've grown to become close friends, it's also revealed to me an understanding of why I shouldn't try dating them when February rolls around (PA is apparently an overwhelming EN for me), plus they each tend to have an individual red flag buried somewhere (DJs, sacrifice-strategy, etc).

So I've found myself legitimately enjoying female friendships that I have no interest in pursuing as anything more than friends (but being completely prepared to drop them all should I get married)



So in reference to this quote, I believe I may be one of the types of guys Zhamila is describing. We can all relax and joke around, knowing that we're all just friends. Am I missing something here as well? It's possible, obviously, many of those girls are friendly with me in the hopes that I'll take them out on a date in February, but I also legitimately believe they value what I'm offering to the church and our friendships without any sacrifice on their part)

I'll eventually start my own thread when I pick dating back up in February, but was curious as to everyone's thoughts on this relating to Zhamila's question.

Z I think an activity partner or more than one is a great fit for you in the meantime. But let me plug women friendships, too, because raising kids, sometimes you need someone to call when you're stuck at work unexpectedly and a kid needs to be picked up. I only had to call a friend for help once, like 2 years ago, but it is great for peace of mind.

I don't know, maybe guy friends are willing to do that kinda thing too?

But as I recall he has also said that he and Joyce have OS friends, just not ones who meet any ENs.

Great question. For a number of reasons, I've never had many male friends. My ex-husband didn't have any female friends. My ex-boyfriend who I was with for 3 years had 1 close female friend who I always felt was trying to engage in competition with me (those are the 2 previous main relationships in my life).

The man I'm now in a relationship with has many female friends. A couple of them he has been roommates with in the past (he says nothing physical ever happened, and I do believe him). I've met the majority of his female friends. Some are married, some are not, they're either old high school friends or work friends. I didn't have this experience with either of my previous relationships. My bf has been single basically his entire life (never married, his last very serious relationship ended when he was in his 20's) so I can't blame him or fault him for living his life and having both male and female friends but now that we're together, I have spoken to him about how I have a hard time with all the lady friends and still some trust issues that have lingered over the years. This has subsided as I meet each one and see that they really are just friends.
It's not like they do stuff together on the weekends. (Now, if there is a get together, I'm included.) There's an occasional text message conversation (he's never secretive with his phone or anything like that). There are lunches together (the work friends). As a person whose marriage ended after an affair (with a "work friend") I'm extremely sensitive to it and I do believe he is taking my feelings into consideration. I trust him, but I don't want to be made a fool again.

I wouldn't want him to be the kind of person who gets a girlfriend and suddenly ditches all his friends. He has plenty of male friends too. I think he does understand where I'm coming from and why I feel the way I do and he's being considerate and respectful of it all. I have no reason not to trust him.

So can men and women be friends? I think so but there still have to be boundaries in place.

Do you have a source for that? It would help to know the context

Like many pieces of marriage builders advice, this one is a little nuanced. The simplest and least confusing way to express it is "no opposite sex friends," and that is how Dr. Harley and Joyce usually express it. That's usually how we need to express it here on the forum; for example, a former wayward needs to be simply told not to have any opposite sex friends rather than see a debate about having friends as a couple or friends that don't meet emotional needs.

Yes, Dr. Harley and Joyce have no problem with coworkers, acquaintances, fellow church members, etc. of the opposite sex, but there is no discussion of personal issues. "No friends" doesn't mean "never talking to anyone of the opposite sex," but it does mean never discussing personal issues (yours or theirs), never expressing care or admiration, etc. Generally speaking, the broad brush "no friends" explanation is what needs to be expressed, exactly as Dr. Harley and Joyce do it.

I think the problem with expressing it like this on the forum is that many people argue that their OS friend meets no needs. "I've known him since I was a child." "I could never fancy him in a million years." "He's not my type." "He's my best friend's husband. He's more like a brother to me." "He's a priest." These people meet no ENs for months or years - until the day they do.

He seemed to redraft the OS friends article after there was a debate on the forum regarding a particular couple friendship.

The article says: "I'm not opposed to all friendships of the opposite sex. I'm only opposed to those that can lead to an affair. And those are the ones where the most important emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, honesty and openness, and admiration are met."

He lays out how to evaluate which friendships will lead to generating romantic feelings.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_OSFriend.html

It doesnt really apply to singletons except to note that not all friendships will lead to love, but I don't think many people expect them to. There's a good chance though if the friendship is both intimate and appealing.

I know of one female friend who met and received all the listed needs of one of her male friends. It never developed because she found his conversation irritating for too long periods. However he clearly found her attractive.

We have one OS friend each, being another married couple. I have been friends with them since we were all 14. Me and her do all the arrangements to meet as couples (restaurant, movie, whatever) and me/him and her/my husband don't communicate separately outside those arrangements. It has worked well for 16 years now (they started dating at 15!).

I also find with meeting UA time that "solo" time with OS friend is darn near impossible. I find it highly unlikely that couples meeting 15 hours (or more) UA time actually have the energy or money for more meetings with OS friends! I meet my girlfriends in our baby play groups (free and mornings) and that's about it! He's at work.

I was looking for it in my posts, because I was a participant on the thread, but I can't seem to find it I'm afraid.

Actually, I was surprised to hear him argue that it is ever possible. And the very minimal kind of communication that he described (prohibiting, for example, discussing anything that is really meaningful to you) did not seem, to me, to describe anything resembling a friendship as that term is understood in ordinary parlance. Perhaps it might be better expressed as "it is possible to have OS acquaintances who are not privy to much in the way of personal life details, but with whom connections are not solely restricted to commercial or quasi-professional interactions". You know, a casual conversation with a neighbour while gardening.

Although, I know that I have seen that frowned upon, too, if either person is married.

I agree that the stricter understanding is safer for married people. But this thread is under "General Discussion" so I thought it ok to bring it up.

And, to add my own input to the actual question raised - can men and women be "just" friends? (ie., outside of marriage). In my experience, they can.

Yes. I pick up kids sometimes when a mother might ask me to.
But we aren't friends.

Zhamila,

I'm going to turn this around on you...

Suppose you had a male friend that really liked being around you, he liked who you are, what you believe, your personality, how you dress, found you physically attractive, etc.

He spent time with you because it made him feel good, and he wanted more. He wants to be more than friends.

What could he do to win your heart? Just hang out and try to meet your needs? Try not to hint at his desire for more?

ak

When I was single, I (and my guy friends were the same way) don't remember having friends that were females that a physical relationship wouldn'thave been turned down.

SC, the reply about OS friends is in the newsletters section.

JK, I don't get it, mothers who aren't friends with you ask you to pick up their kids? I have men and women coworkers who are friends but it is the women ones I asked when I needed another name for the emergency contact card for the kids' schools. I assumed the guys would say no, is that wrong?

I've read that, thank you NED, and it seems that Dr Harley's article isn't so much a discussion of whether it is possible for men and women to be "just friends", but more a warning that if OSFs are to be non-threatening to a marriage, there must be strict boundaries that do not allow ENs to be met.

From your point of view, Zhamila, these men are not meeting your ENs, so you can see them as just friends, but from the point of view of the "more persistent gents", however, you are meeting some of theirs. That is why they can't be just friends with you, and why they keep trying to be more. It may be that you are erecting barriers that stop them meeting your ENs, but it is entirely possible that one of your friends will meet an important EN one day.

I am woman and I have a ton of guy friends. I am not sure if it's because I am a strong extrovert or because I am an engineer. I Enjoy the company of my many guy friends. I really have no idea what they think of me. I try not to assume much of men. I wouldn't think they would play games with me, and I genuinely believe they are invested in our friendships. I must be meeting some EN's I suppose. I seem to be the stronger one ... i.e. miss social butterfly. I set up our time together...play dates with kids ... hanging out at the house or out and about on the weekends.

I seem to be ciphering off EN's from them differently, so not one in particular is overloading my system. I have one in particular I realized I may be addicted to talking to him ... not sure why I think about him. Things come in my life daily, and I feel like texting him or telling him about it. All I know is I find myself talking to him a lot.

We are friends. We both expressed the desire to remain friends, but sometimes I wonder why we aren't dating. I try not to assess or assume anything with anyone so I just go with the flow, and continue on my path of bonding with the opposite sex.

I think a key to all of this EN meeting is time. The time you spend putting into EN meeting is what will make it love or not.

I work mostly with men ... and there have been a few I have really developed a bond with. Yes dating was discussed, but life, kids, etc. Get in the way, so it was always decided to remain friends. Not one has said they don't want to remain friends. I seem to pick guys in my life that I can have great conversation with ... so maybe this gift of mine ("Talking") is their treasure EN meeter!!!

I don't know ... all I know is I'd be lost without my guy friends. They mean the world to me, and I feel like maybe I'm part male because I just connect with them different.

I am loving this conversation. Thanks everybody!

This is a really good question. I don't know if it's a character quirk or what, but I am sort of an "instant chemistry" kind of person. I can tell really quickly whether a man appeals to me romantically or not. And if he does not - well, then I'll never be attracted to him romantically, no matter what he does or says. Never.

Case in point: my dear friend "Mitch" from college and I have been friends for 20+ years now. I 'love' him and enjoy him tremendously. But he confessed (a few years ago) that he was romantically interested in me - I made it clear that I was not, but would love to continue our friendship if he felt he could. We are still friends...that's all it will ever be (to me).

Every single man with whom I've been "in love" has had some mysterious - immediate - attraction to me. And if I don't feel that connection, I cannot muster up the feelings later.

Right now I have more male friends than ever in my life - but every single one of them has expressed romantic interest in me at some point. They are still willing to be "friendsies." I hope I'm not frustrating them or anything, but seriously - it's not gonna happen. (sorry!)

Funny thing about ENs - and a little side-note from a conversation I had with Steve Harley last year - I asked him, "Can literally ANY two people fall in love?" Because we were talking about whether a person could "learn" how to meet any other person's ENs (my xH, at the time). He said his Dad (aka Dr. Harley) thinks so, but that he personally wasn't convinced that ANY man could make ANY woman fall in love with him. He gave room for a little mystery or something.

Oh and for the record, even with that "instant chemistry" thing, the 5 ENs have to follow at some point, or it sort of shrivels up. The chemistry remains, but the rational part of me edges away emotionally.

This is a very interesting point, SugarCane. I wonder if it will turn out to be true for me?

I have been in love a handful of times in my life, and it was always with a person I had an instant attraction for. The ones who "wooed" me (wrote poetry, bought me presents, dated me - but I felt zero attraction for) never captured my heart. I even dated several of the "wooers" - some for years - but was never in love. Heck, I even married one! Stupid, eh?

I even told myself, "love will grow." It didn't.

Now, I admit I've been "friends" with a man or two I had a crush on. But they weren't interested in me, and I would NEVER have divulged my feelings. So, nothing ever happened.

So true NED!

I have lots of women friends.

Just seems like the dude-friends have "come out of the woodwork," so to speak. Hm...maybe it's because I'm...SINGLE?

(gasp) You mean...you weren't worried about "ruining the friendship?" lol, Kilted! Love this.



*hope i read this correctly!*

Again, "Science Confirms the Obvious!"

Here are some other late-greats:
- Exercise is good for you
- Keeping guns out of the hands of troubled individuals, saves lives
- Driving when drunk is unsafe
- Smoking a lot of pot can make your mind fuzzy

...and much more!

Anyhoo, I think what surprised me is that women (by and large) thought platonically about their male friends, whereas the men (by and large) did not. But this shouldn't surprise me, as women's top ENs are non-sexual, whereas a man's #1 (generally) is SF. So, ok, like duh.

Personally, I find the ability to accept the word 'no' confidently pretty attractive. Men who pressure are taking the pursuit too far. Being asked out, but knowing you can say no and no one will get moody or hurt makes it a much freer decision. I know women who have said 'no' and changed it to 'yes' because the reaction was so cheerful and friendly.

I know another friend who went on a date with a perfectly nice guy, but she didn't want to be his girlfriend straight away as such. He sent a plethora of texts pressuring her to 'give him a chance' as though she owed him something. Even when she moved!

One of the reasons my boyfriend appealed to me was that he offered to remain friends if I didn't want to date him. That was nice and pressure-free. I was already really into him but it made me like him that much more.

Essentially she either feels it or she doesn't. Perhaps now, perhaps later.



I've heard Dr H say that if a man is willing to talk at length with a woman, love is nearly a foregone conclusion. I don't think the same thing is true the other way around.

It's been my experience that while there are some men who truly think of some women purely platonically, they are a minority. Most men tend not to bother developing friendships in barren places.

Think of the average male friendship (I realise I am stereotyping) - low maintainance where gifts/affection and intimate conversation is required. Women tend to be higher maintainance friends (try skipping christmas cards!). If a man is putting in that effort, he's motivated.

Think of it like this: very often a women who wants sex (a high male need) is in love, or at least attracted. It makes sense that a man who is talking (a high female need) is similarly motivated.

I would view wooing as pressure if it isn't being welcomed. I'd be more likely to fall for the helpful friend who listened to me in a "love will grow" situation.



Dr H believes in chemistry. Have you read about his experiments with college students? He used to wire up female students and test their reactions to male students. Reactions ranged from dud to "off the charts". He would then encourage the man to ask the woman on at least one date because there was clearly a spark.

Also, his dating advice seems to encourage us to look for chemistry. Be a freeloader initially, seek out lovers and likers, only marry if passionately in love, don't ponder too hard on a dating relationship trying to "make it work".

However he has had success creating love between people who have never been in love, such as arranged marriages. For that to work though they need to be in a pre-designed 'bubble' purposefully protecting from all unpleasantness and on their best, most appealing behaviour.

If you think about it, that's what happens in affairs too. The APS are always pleasant, putting a good face on at all times and saving alll the unpleasantness for the spouse. That's why waywards fall for such odd, unsuitable people and why the relationsip doesn't last. The bubble wasn't designed, it just happened organically and they never learn how to prolong the bubble.

Love all your thoughts, Indie!

So now I'm getting a little sad thinking about this. If men only bother spending time with women they ultimately want to have sex with - do men view women as 'targets,' not as human beings, or real people?

Ick.

Would someone please explain this in a different way? Kindly soften the blow, as it sounds kind of yucky to me right now.

Good points!
I hadn't heard about the 'college chemistry test' - that cracks me up.

Glad you weighed in, Indie. Thanks!

No because there are plenty of women offering casual sex and even paid-for sex. Men would never put in so much effort with a friend if that's all they wanted.

One of the reasons Dr H tells women to specifically avoid sex in the dating world. Sex does not mean love.

Keep in mind that most men need an emotional relationship with a woman much more than women need it. Single women do great; they have close relationships with others and take an active role in the community typically. Conversely men die even younger than their married counterparts and suicide and alcohol levels rocket for single men.

Women meet each other's ENs much better than men do.

However the emotional relationship men crave will probably need a sexual element to be involved somewhere down the line. Lets not confuse the EMOTIONAL need of SF with the physical need. Men who have an EN for SF want to feel close and bonded with their loved one and best friend on all levels. Men who have a physical need for it simply want sex...with anyone.

OK, Indie. That makes sense. Not feeling quite as queasy now.

I believe I've also heard Dr. H also say that women are better at meeting men's ENs than the other way around. And research consistently shows that marriage is a much better 'deal' for men than for women (i.e. men are happier, healthier, etc while there is no such correlation for women).

I wonder if part of the reason women are better at meeting men's needs is because they've been conditioned by culture for millennia to do so. Whereas by and large, men don't think it's "cool" or "manly" to be good at meeting a woman's needs (a shame, imo). Our culture encourages women to be sexy, pretty, agreeable, domestic, etc - all ENs of guys.

However, when our culture talks to men the messages are very different - rarely do we see men being encouraged to be affectionate, conversant or financially supportive/family committed. Quite the opposite: there are strong messages to men to throw off any other person's desires and keep themselves happy (Drink more! Watch more sports! Pretend you don't care about your kiddos or your wife!) It's a real shame.

Men fight an uphill battle with little encouragement from each other to become great partners. I wonder why? It's kind of a bummer and ultimately I suspect it doesn't make men happy in the long run. But I'm not a guy, so I can only speak from outside observation.

It's easy to get quite jaded about men while on the dating battlefield. However the majority of the population are renters, both men and women, you only have to look at the marital and divorce statistics or spend some time on a dating website to know that.

I know my friends and I have felt while dating that most men have been ruined by society. The way they behave isn't just ungentlemanly but unmanly. But men who are potential buyers in the dating world feel just the same way about women. My boyfriend has some horror stories of his time online. One women messaged him purely asking him what size, an um, member of his anatomy was. Just flat out, no introductions.

I think women are just as encouraged by society to be selfish, blinkered and to put short term wants first. The buyers are a minority in both genders.




Yup, Dr Harley agrees that women are the guardians of relationships. We work hard to make sure we have something good to offer.

Lest we forget, though, that we women are highly conscious of the fact that we are the rulers of the dating scene and hold the power. We know we offer a good deal and that the men have to be a good candidate to get it.

We require a lot more romancing than they do. Much more effort, more time. Non MB women also tend to require a lot of sacrifice for love to be 'proved'. One man I know said getting a new girlfriend was like joining the army - new haircut, new duds and information on a need-to-know basis!

And heaven help the man who doesn't live up to the requirements of one of our sister standard-bearers:


It's a good role for us to have. We make men in the dating world work harder and we keep them at it marriage. We are wired to complain and keep standards high.

But we get to remain in control. We choose the men from the candidates (look at your position with your male friends - that's not uncommon) and we are the ones who put our thumbs down, Caligula style when the marriage stops being satisfying.

But let's remember that it can't be a picnic for the men. They have to pursue in dating, they have to get battered with rejection when they are being perfectly nice guys. They have to work overtime during the marriage providing hours of affectionate EN meeting that we can equal with a mere dash of lipstick. They have to encounter and learn a dizzying level of sexual knowledge to provide satisfaction that we can buy at Victoria's Secret.

They are just as likely to be betrayed as we are, but when they are, their wives will lose all love for them. They will have to work four times as hard to win them back. When their wives do come back they will be unendurably uppity and not apologetic at all.

Yet men will do this for love. Again and again.

So I say Yay Men. I like the stoical buggers.

To each their own. I've been good friends with 3 or 4 women for over 20 years; not once have I crossed the line or considered crossing the line with them. I would have been a worse person for not having been friends with them all this time.

AGG

Those are probably the types of friends Dr H excludes from being potential romantic interests.

And........you have not allowed those women to meet more and more of your important emotional needs (which create romantic love).

They each probably just meet one or two of them.....thus their accounts in your Love Bank did not reach the romantic love threshold.

Love it!!!

Can't say I've always felt like I had any control or power as a woman, but when you put it that way I suppose it makes more sense. And finally at age 41 I can honestly say I'd rather be alone than with a man who is hurting or neglecting me. Took several decades, but I'm there now.

So, after 6 months of silence, Dream Dude texted me out of the blue. We bantered a bit, though I was excited, anxious and afraid all at once. Suddenly I realized, "I can't be friends with him! It'll shred my heart!" So I told him if his intention was to be friends, I couldn't do it because of my feelings. Haven't heard from him since. Maybe he was jonesing, or just bored & figured I was an easy target.

Sad all over again, but I feel like I have more solid closure now. And I feel stronger.

I can only be friends with boys I'm not in love with.

Well, I think that many men are driven by sex. Not to pour fuel on the fire, but that is the way we are wired, and left unchecked it can grow into women getting played by guys that amount to nothing more than predators.

It's a sad fact, but there are ways to deal with it. For me, I just know that sex is something that comes after the wedding and that goes a long way to put my heart in the right place. Also, I avoid deception and dishonesty, as using those to get your needs met always comes at the expense of someone else.

So how does this come into play with having female friends?

For me, it's about finding the one, and having a solid romantic relationship, not having a bunch of girlfriends.

I'm not after the sex specifically, I'm after having a life partner. If the woman I'm interested doesn't show some level of interest I'll probably move on, not because I'm after a physical relationship that won't happen, but because I'm not interested in having lots of female friends after I start a serious relationship, and saying goodbye to all of my close friendships would be difficult.

HomeSweetHome, You mention you have a bunch of guy friends. I think that's great, but are you planning on keeping them around after you find the one? What about this friend you like to talk to? Are you going to hang on to that relationship after you re-marry?

So rejecting the offer of being friends isn't to reject the woman for for not being interested. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone, rather it's a simple matter of putting some emotional protection around myself and my future bride.

If I met a woman with a bunch of guy friends that she spent her time with, I would wonder what is going to happen after a serious relationship starts. I don't want to ask her to limit her interaction with them as that is a bit rude, but I'm not really comfortable with her around them either, because I know how men work.

Hope that makes sense.

ak

I agree with you that a real man will be affectionate, conversant, supportive, and family committed, and that it's in part due to conditioning from our culture.

But keep in mind that some of that conditioning comes from women.

Many times when men act that way towards a woman he is interested in, they are happy to be his friend and get the conversation and support while they are dating some mysterious guy that they are wildly attracted to, who is more or less playing her.

I think some of this is that it's hard for a woman to find a man attractive when he acts outside of social norms, even if that is what she is looking for.

Anyway, much has been written on how to attract women, and very little of it focuses on the values you wrote above. Most of it relates with how to tease her, keep her entertained, play on her jealousy, and have higher status than she does.

ak

Well, there you go, if you can't be friends with him because of your emotional connection and desire to be with him, then it would make sense that men may not want to be friends with you because of their physical connection and desire to be with you.

So after all I wrote about physical attraction with men, I'm curious, what exactly makes you feel that attraction towards a man? An instant attraction makes me think it has something to do with his looks, posture, perhaps how he dresses.

Perhaps you can smell him?

There is so much insight here it's not even funny. It's so true!

I am a simple man to please, and I am more than willing to take care of the EN needs of a woman in extraordinary ways, but that is much harder than it sounds.

Even if you wear the right shoes, get a haircut, take smiling lessons, all that is good for is trying to pass the initial attraction phase. Once the relationship is started, then you have to figure out exactly what she wants and needs, and it's usually by trial and error, lots of it.

That is what makes a woman that knows MB so attractive. Not only does she know what her needs are, she can communicate them to someone she is interested in.

Even then, I think many women find communicating their needs incompatible with their feeling attraction.

My exWW was like this. She absolutely hated telling me anything and couldn't figure out why my intuition wasn't in tune with what she wanted. The really crazy part is that I'm not sure she even knew what she wanted, beyond a feeling, which her AP was able to provide. In the end it was just all facade and she got used.

ak

Well I picked up the movie When Harry Met Sally, which Harley has referenced and will watch it this week

I love the music in that movie. Harry Connick Jr is amazing.

Of course Meg Ryan is serious pretty (even with the 80's hair), but Billy Crystal's part always bothered me. He seemed pretty selfish and sometimes flat disrespectful.

Let us know what you think after you watch it.

I love that part when she tells him off for sleeping around. It's what every woman wants to say to her clueless male friend. And he comes back with the "I think they have a pretty good time" line. Cue famous fake orgasm scene.

Freeloaders only want what comes naturally. Anything more means it 'isn't meant to be'. It's a good tactic for the first few dates to find a natural fit in a partner but from then onwards is a very lazy technique.

This is so spot on ... before I found MB I would not have thought twice about this...but today I cannot let my guy friends fall for this.

I let them know they are bad in bed, and are really quite clueless into knowing how to please.

Most think I am crazy. They will believe what they want ... most balk at the notion they are bad in bed....!

That is until they start to ask this of their other girl "friends"...and come to be amazed at how much "faking" it really goes into this.

I have yet to find one of my "renter" girlfriends/married friends who tell me they never fake it. The rarity of great SF is starting to rank with the lost art of Atari...simply doesn't exist anymore in marriages.

I tell my guy friends ... you can marry "that" but I promise you unless you are truly without any reservation meeting her needs and/or giving her proper care you will not have a marriage with lasting SF. SF will be the first thing to go beacuse you will drain her lovebank quickly by not meeting her needs.

They will either heed the advice or not ... I don't really care. I simply supply my 2cents and move on!!!

It's what you pointed out in the other thread, ak. The witty repartee we shared. Silly, eh?

I mean, he is handsome to me (not a Ken doll, but I found him instantly attractive in his Mr. Rogers sweater & glasses - seriously). We had FUN together, he felt safe to me (not a woman-ogler, not a controller), and I respected his life, values, work, etc. Not a rich dude but had his act together.

He was so nervous when he approached me - I was smitten by that! He was so respectful, not wanting to interrupt my convo with my girlfriend, so waited until I got up to go the restroom. I mean, everything considerate and so it continued.

That's why I found him so irresistible. (sigh) It's been a very. difficult. weekend.

Perhaps I should've tried to be friends, just so I could see him again...

I really like that too. Know exactly what you're talking about.





I'm sure I've heard Dr Harley on the radio tell women not to waste their time being hung up on men who don't love them. We just don't seem to be as up for the wooing game as men are and he says that's ok. His advice to men is not quite the same. Though he doesn't tell them to go after women who are unsuitable or who are very cool, he's ok with them pursuing the romance in a friendship a bit more and working on it.

I can't remember exactly what he said but the gist was that while women can and should ask men out on dates they shouldn't be the driving force in 'making it happen'. He used the example of himself and Joyce. Joyce didn't love him but he loved and courted her. He said he didn't advise that situation though if the roles were reversed. He didn't want a woman to put in very much work, because she would have to continue that work after marriage and wouldn't get her ENs met. It's also sort of like the way he doesn't advise women to do a lengthy Plan A. It's off putting to men to be pursued and women find it wearying to do.

I couldn't be friends with a man I was really into who didn't feel the same. Too hard on my feelings.

I think your instincts were right. I also think you phrased it to him very cleverly. That's a massive hit of admiration you gave him by saying you liked him too much to be platonic. If he doesn't bite at that piece of bait, it's never going to happen.

My best female friend (26yrs) is dating & experimenting with sex a lot this year, and has yet to meet the first guy that is able to please her... but if she really likes a guy, the no SF part is completely irrelevant to her. So that pretty much confirms the quote, i think.

Could not live with a faker... That's just another form of lying really isn't it?

Gerold I agree, another form of lying, okay in a freeloader situation, but a setup for future hurt otherwise.

If any guys are looking for female friends, I was at Zumba with my daughter last night, and for the first time there was a guy there too. We welcomed him right into the sisterhood we have there.

I am thinking it makes a lot of sense for singles to develop opposite sex activity partner friends with folks they are not very attracted to. For a guy for example, after a while she'd like you so much she'd introduce a friend to you.

Now that I'm older, I totally don't understand faking pleasure. I've faked twice in my life (which is kind of funny for a guy to say that) but at this juncture if I were single I'd just be honest about what wasn't working.

I was lucky enough in my late teens and early 20s to be 'shown the ropes' and have guides/teachers. If a guy is lousy in bed, it's because he's continually lied to that he's providing satisfaction. It seems like it'd just be much easier to verbalize your likes and at least have some fun out of intimate activity.

I've never had an issue approaching women. And I've always prided myself on being on top of my game and in my marriage continually trying to one up myself. But I also believe that if a woman was interested in me, then let me know and if I'm interested in pursuing, then it's a win win situation. I don't do high maintenance and I don't believe in games and assumptions. Tell me what you need and want and if I can provide, I will. If I can't, then I don't want to waste surgery of our time.

As a single, making new opposite sex friendships are imho the best strategy to meet lots of new people.

I moved to Asia a month and a halve ago and i am trying to integrate into a small community of both locals and expats. Who you know and how you are connected is key in any culture.

I think my opposite sex friends are the only reason I am able to grow. In my opinion having a variety of men meet needs versus just one while one is dating helps to make sure all the eggs don't get thrown into one basket.

It makes any man I date have to work harder than the next to meet my ENs. He doesn't get to be lazy because it takes effort today. I know my need meeting threshold is higher because I use my guy friends to replenish it ... I like it this way. It protects me, and as long as I don't have my friends meet more than one or two I am safe from falling in love. I get to be in control of this ... it is a great safety mechanism for me.

As usual Indie, you are correct.

I don't like pining for someone with whom I'd had no contact for 6 months. Now that he contacted me, I suppose I can look forward to another six months of recovery that even 2 dozen men cannot heal.

Argh!

In other news, 2 ex-guys-I've dated: been hanging out a little lately. I think it's the holidays, being single & a bit tired. I know these "friendships" won't last but they are a comfort to each of us. None of us is in the mood to date someone new during the holidays.

I don't think it's common for a male-female to pull off a 'just friends' relationship, but I don't think it's impossible. One of my best college buddies is a male. We have known each other and hung out together for years. Never once did I think of dating him and I'm pretty sure he never thought of dating me.

Now I am engaged and my fiance and I attended his wedding. My fiance is fine with us hanging out as a couple with the two of them as a couple. They will be invited to our wedding as well. My fiance is fully aware of friendship. Now that I am to be married I will take great care to only see my college friend as a couple and if at any time my fiance (or his wife) feels uncomfortable with the relationship I am willing to drop it.

As I've gathered several 'ex-boyfriends' this year (and they tell me their stories), I've come to the conclusion (again!) that it's difficult to be 'just friends.' One or the other usually feels a romantic tug, and sometimes sex is expected.

Case in point, one of my ex-boyfriends told me he was planning to attend an event with a female "friend," and would probably end up sleeping with her (though he didn't want to, he felt it was expected). She tragically died before the event, so it didn't happen, but his story gave me insight into what "friendship" really looks like between males and females.

I think it's possible but difficult. This was just being debated on a radio station I listened to the other morning. Lots of guys called in and said they only had female friends that they were interested in sleeping with. Otherwise they would spend their time with someone else. This is very relevant for me right now. I am in the process of creating a new social circle of singles to hang out with. I've been joining a bunch of meet-up groups. It would be interesting to know what the guys were really thinking. Are they just waiting for the right opportunity?

I think that's pretty much the consensus: men are efficient and won't waste time if there's no possible "return on investment." Whereas women see the relationship as "the thing," men see it as a means to possibly more.

Unless he's gay...which is why I love gay men: no pressure or weirdness.

Women sure do think differently from men.

Why not? Men and women can build a good friendship.