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Originally Posted By: Zhamila
However, when our culture talks to men the messages are very different - rarely do we see men being encouraged to be affectionate, conversant or financially supportive/family committed. Quite the opposite: there are strong messages to men to throw off any other person's desires and keep themselves happy (Drink more! Watch more sports! Pretend you don't care about your kiddos or your wife!) It's a real shame.



It's easy to get quite jaded about men while on the dating battlefield. However the majority of the population are renters, both men and women, you only have to look at the marital and divorce statistics or spend some time on a dating website to know that.

I know my friends and I have felt while dating that most men have been ruined by society. The way they behave isn't just ungentlemanly but unmanly. But men who are potential buyers in the dating world feel just the same way about women. My boyfriend has some horror stories of his time online. One women messaged him purely asking him what size, an um, member of his anatomy was. Just flat out, no introductions.

I think women are just as encouraged by society to be selfish, blinkered and to put short term wants first. The buyers are a minority in both genders.

Originally Posted By: Zhamila
research consistently shows that marriage is a much better 'deal' for men than for women (i.e. men are happier, healthier, etc while there is no such correlation for women).
............Men fight an uphill battle with little encouragement from each other to become great partners. I wonder why?



Yup, Dr Harley agrees that women are the guardians of relationships. We work hard to make sure we have something good to offer.

Lest we forget, though, that we women are highly conscious of the fact that we are the rulers of the dating scene and hold the power. We know we offer a good deal and that the men have to be a good candidate to get it.

We require a lot more romancing than they do. Much more effort, more time. Non MB women also tend to require a lot of sacrifice for love to be 'proved'. One man I know said getting a new girlfriend was like joining the army - new haircut, new duds and information on a need-to-know basis!

And heaven help the man who doesn't live up to the requirements of one of our sister standard-bearers:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

Women tend to be more concerned about their marriages than men. They buy most of the books on marriage to try to improve them and initiate most marriage counseling. They often complain about their marriages to their closest friends and sometimes to anyone who will listen. And they also file for divorce twice as often as men.


It's a good role for us to have. We make men in the dating world work harder and we keep them at it marriage. We are wired to complain and keep standards high.

But we get to remain in control. We choose the men from the candidates (look at your position with your male friends - that's not uncommon) and we are the ones who put our thumbs down, Caligula style when the marriage stops being satisfying.

But let's remember that it can't be a picnic for the men. They have to pursue in dating, they have to get battered with rejection when they are being perfectly nice guys. They have to work overtime during the marriage providing hours of affectionate EN meeting that we can equal with a mere dash of lipstick. They have to encounter and learn a dizzying level of sexual knowledge to provide satisfaction that we can buy at Victoria's Secret.

They are just as likely to be betrayed as we are, but when they are, their wives will lose all love for them. They will have to work four times as hard to win them back. When their wives do come back they will be unendurably uppity and not apologetic at all.

Yet men will do this for love. Again and again.

So I say Yay Men. I like the stoical buggers.

Last edited by indiegirl; 12/13/13 04:25 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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To each their own. I've been good friends with 3 or 4 women for over 20 years; not once have I crossed the line or considered crossing the line with them. I would have been a worse person for not having been friends with them all this time.

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Those are probably the types of friends Dr H excludes from being potential romantic interests.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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And........you have not allowed those women to meet more and more of your important emotional needs (which create romantic love).

They each probably just meet one or two of them.....thus their accounts in your Love Bank did not reach the romantic love threshold.







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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: Zhamila
However, when our culture talks to men the messages are very different - rarely do we see men being encouraged to be affectionate, conversant or financially supportive/family committed. Quite the opposite: there are strong messages to men to throw off any other person's desires and keep themselves happy (Drink more! Watch more sports! Pretend you don't care about your kiddos or your wife!) It's a real shame.



It's easy to get quite jaded about men while on the dating battlefield. However the majority of the population are renters, both men and women, you only have to look at the marital and divorce statistics or spend some time on a dating website to know that.

I know my friends and I have felt while dating that most men have been ruined by society. The way they behave isn't just ungentlemanly but unmanly. But men who are potential buyers in the dating world feel just the same way about women. My boyfriend has some horror stories of his time online. One women messaged him purely asking him what size, an um, member of his anatomy was. Just flat out, no introductions.

I think women are just as encouraged by society to be selfish, blinkered and to put short term wants first. The buyers are a minority in both genders.

Originally Posted By: Zhamila
research consistently shows that marriage is a much better 'deal' for men than for women (i.e. men are happier, healthier, etc while there is no such correlation for women).
............Men fight an uphill battle with little encouragement from each other to become great partners. I wonder why?



Yup, Dr Harley agrees that women are the guardians of relationships. We work hard to make sure we have something good to offer.

Lest we forget, though, that we women are highly conscious of the fact that we are the rulers of the dating scene and hold the power. We know we offer a good deal and that the men have to be a good candidate to get it.

We require a lot more romancing than they do. Much more effort, more time. Non MB women also tend to require a lot of sacrifice for love to be 'proved'. One man I know said getting a new girlfriend was like joining the army - new haircut, new duds and information on a need-to-know basis!

And heaven help the man who doesn't live up to the requirements of one of our sister standard-bearers:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

Women tend to be more concerned about their marriages than men. They buy most of the books on marriage to try to improve them and initiate most marriage counseling. They often complain about their marriages to their closest friends and sometimes to anyone who will listen. And they also file for divorce twice as often as men.


It's a good role for us to have. We make men in the dating world work harder and we keep them at it marriage. We are wired to complain and keep standards high.

But we get to remain in control. We choose the men from the candidates (look at your position with your male friends - that's not uncommon) and we are the ones who put our thumbs down, Caligula style when the marriage stops being satisfying.

But let's remember that it can't be a picnic for the men. They have to pursue in dating, they have to get battered with rejection when they are being perfectly nice guys. They have to work overtime during the marriage providing hours of affectionate EN meeting that we can equal with a mere dash of lipstick. They have to encounter and learn a dizzying level of sexual knowledge to provide satisfaction that we can buy at Victoria's Secret.

They are just as likely to be betrayed as we are, but when they are, their wives will lose all love for them. They will have to work four times as hard to win them back. When their wives do come back they will be unendurably uppity and not apologetic at all.

Yet men will do this for love. Again and again.

So I say Yay Men. I like the stoical buggers.


Love it!!! grin

Can't say I've always felt like I had any control or power as a woman, but when you put it that way I suppose it makes more sense. And finally at age 41 I can honestly say I'd rather be alone than with a man who is hurting or neglecting me. Took several decades, but I'm there now.


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So, after 6 months of silence, Dream Dude texted me out of the blue. We bantered a bit, though I was excited, anxious and afraid all at once. Suddenly I realized, "I can't be friends with him! It'll shred my heart!" So I told him if his intention was to be friends, I couldn't do it because of my feelings. Haven't heard from him since. Maybe he was jonesing, or just bored & figured I was an easy target.

Sad all over again, but I feel like I have more solid closure now. And I feel stronger.

I can only be friends with boys I'm not in love with. wink


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Originally Posted By: Zhamila

So now I'm getting a little sad thinking about this. If men only bother spending time with women they ultimately want to have sex with - do men view women as 'targets,' not as human beings, or real people?

Ick.

Would someone please explain this in a different way? Kindly soften the blow, as it sounds kind of yucky to me right now.


Well, I think that many men are driven by sex. Not to pour fuel on the fire, but that is the way we are wired, and left unchecked it can grow into women getting played by guys that amount to nothing more than predators.

It's a sad fact, but there are ways to deal with it. For me, I just know that sex is something that comes after the wedding and that goes a long way to put my heart in the right place. Also, I avoid deception and dishonesty, as using those to get your needs met always comes at the expense of someone else.

So how does this come into play with having female friends?

For me, it's about finding the one, and having a solid romantic relationship, not having a bunch of girlfriends.

I'm not after the sex specifically, I'm after having a life partner. If the woman I'm interested doesn't show some level of interest I'll probably move on, not because I'm after a physical relationship that won't happen, but because I'm not interested in having lots of female friends after I start a serious relationship, and saying goodbye to all of my close friendships would be difficult.

HomeSweetHome, You mention you have a bunch of guy friends. I think that's great, but are you planning on keeping them around after you find the one? What about this friend you like to talk to? Are you going to hang on to that relationship after you re-marry?

So rejecting the offer of being friends isn't to reject the woman for for not being interested. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone, rather it's a simple matter of putting some emotional protection around myself and my future bride.

If I met a woman with a bunch of guy friends that she spent her time with, I would wonder what is going to happen after a serious relationship starts. I don't want to ask her to limit her interaction with them as that is a bit rude, but I'm not really comfortable with her around them either, because I know how men work.

Hope that makes sense.

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Originally Posted By: Zhamila

However, when our culture talks to men the messages are very different - rarely do we see men being encouraged to be affectionate, conversant or financially supportive/family committed. Quite the opposite: there are strong messages to men to throw off any other person's desires and keep themselves happy (Drink more! Watch more sports! Pretend you don't care about your kiddos or your wife!) It's a real shame.


I agree with you that a real man will be affectionate, conversant, supportive, and family committed, and that it's in part due to conditioning from our culture.

But keep in mind that some of that conditioning comes from women.

Many times when men act that way towards a woman he is interested in, they are happy to be his friend and get the conversation and support while they are dating some mysterious guy that they are wildly attracted to, who is more or less playing her.

I think some of this is that it's hard for a woman to find a man attractive when he acts outside of social norms, even if that is what she is looking for.

Anyway, much has been written on how to attract women, and very little of it focuses on the values you wrote above. Most of it relates with how to tease her, keep her entertained, play on her jealousy, and have higher status than she does.

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Originally Posted By: Zhamila
So, after 6 months of silence, Dream Dude texted me out of the blue. We bantered a bit, though I was excited, anxious and afraid all at once. Suddenly I realized, "I can't be friends with him! It'll shred my heart!" So I told him if his intention was to be friends, I couldn't do it because of my feelings. Haven't heard from him since. Maybe he was jonesing, or just bored & figured I was an easy target.

Sad all over again, but I feel like I have more solid closure now. And I feel stronger.

I can only be friends with boys I'm not in love with. wink


Well, there you go, if you can't be friends with him because of your emotional connection and desire to be with him, then it would make sense that men may not want to be friends with you because of their physical connection and desire to be with you.

So after all I wrote about physical attraction with men, I'm curious, what exactly makes you feel that attraction towards a man? An instant attraction makes me think it has something to do with his looks, posture, perhaps how he dresses.

Perhaps you can smell him? smile

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: Zhamila
However, when our culture talks to men the messages are very different - rarely do we see men being encouraged to be affectionate, conversant or financially supportive/family committed. Quite the opposite: there are strong messages to men to throw off any other person's desires and keep themselves happy (Drink more! Watch more sports! Pretend you don't care about your kiddos or your wife!) It's a real shame.



It's easy to get quite jaded about men while on the dating battlefield. However the majority of the population are renters, both men and women, you only have to look at the marital and divorce statistics or spend some time on a dating website to know that.

I know my friends and I have felt while dating that most men have been ruined by society. The way they behave isn't just ungentlemanly but unmanly. But men who are potential buyers in the dating world feel just the same way about women. My boyfriend has some horror stories of his time online. One women messaged him purely asking him what size, an um, member of his anatomy was. Just flat out, no introductions.

I think women are just as encouraged by society to be selfish, blinkered and to put short term wants first. The buyers are a minority in both genders.

Originally Posted By: Zhamila
research consistently shows that marriage is a much better 'deal' for men than for women (i.e. men are happier, healthier, etc while there is no such correlation for women).
............Men fight an uphill battle with little encouragement from each other to become great partners. I wonder why?



Yup, Dr Harley agrees that women are the guardians of relationships. We work hard to make sure we have something good to offer.

Lest we forget, though, that we women are highly conscious of the fact that we are the rulers of the dating scene and hold the power. We know we offer a good deal and that the men have to be a good candidate to get it.

We require a lot more romancing than they do. Much more effort, more time. Non MB women also tend to require a lot of sacrifice for love to be 'proved'. One man I know said getting a new girlfriend was like joining the army - new haircut, new duds and information on a need-to-know basis!

And heaven help the man who doesn't live up to the requirements of one of our sister standard-bearers:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

Women tend to be more concerned about their marriages than men. They buy most of the books on marriage to try to improve them and initiate most marriage counseling. They often complain about their marriages to their closest friends and sometimes to anyone who will listen. And they also file for divorce twice as often as men.


It's a good role for us to have. We make men in the dating world work harder and we keep them at it marriage. We are wired to complain and keep standards high.

But we get to remain in control. We choose the men from the candidates (look at your position with your male friends - that's not uncommon) and we are the ones who put our thumbs down, Caligula style when the marriage stops being satisfying.

But let's remember that it can't be a picnic for the men. They have to pursue in dating, they have to get battered with rejection when they are being perfectly nice guys. They have to work overtime during the marriage providing hours of affectionate EN meeting that we can equal with a mere dash of lipstick. They have to encounter and learn a dizzying level of sexual knowledge to provide satisfaction that we can buy at Victoria's Secret.

They are just as likely to be betrayed as we are, but when they are, their wives will lose all love for them. They will have to work four times as hard to win them back. When their wives do come back they will be unendurably uppity and not apologetic at all.

Yet men will do this for love. Again and again.

So I say Yay Men. I like the stoical buggers.


There is so much insight here it's not even funny. It's so true!

I am a simple man to please, and I am more than willing to take care of the EN needs of a woman in extraordinary ways, but that is much harder than it sounds.

Even if you wear the right shoes, get a haircut, take smiling lessons, all that is good for is trying to pass the initial attraction phase. Once the relationship is started, then you have to figure out exactly what she wants and needs, and it's usually by trial and error, lots of it.

That is what makes a woman that knows MB so attractive. Not only does she know what her needs are, she can communicate them to someone she is interested in.

Even then, I think many women find communicating their needs incompatible with their feeling attraction.

My exWW was like this. She absolutely hated telling me anything and couldn't figure out why my intuition wasn't in tune with what she wanted. The really crazy part is that I'm not sure she even knew what she wanted, beyond a feeling, which her AP was able to provide. In the end it was just all facade and she got used.

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Well I picked up the movie When Harry Met Sally, which Harley has referenced and will watch it this week

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I love the music in that movie. Harry Connick Jr is amazing.

Of course Meg Ryan is serious pretty (even with the 80's hair), but Billy Crystal's part always bothered me. He seemed pretty selfish and sometimes flat disrespectful.

Let us know what you think after you watch it.

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I love that part when she tells him off for sleeping around. It's what every woman wants to say to her clueless male friend. And he comes back with the "I think they have a pretty good time" line. Cue famous fake orgasm scene.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: ak1
My exWW was like this. She absolutely hated telling me anything and couldn't figure out why my intuition wasn't in tune with what she wanted.


Freeloaders only want what comes naturally. Anything more means it 'isn't meant to be'. It's a good tactic for the first few dates to find a natural fit in a partner but from then onwards is a very lazy technique.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
I love that part when she tells him off for sleeping around. It's what every woman wants to say to her clueless male friend. And he comes back with the "I think they have a pretty good time" line. Cue famous fake orgasm scene.


This is so spot on ... before I found MB I would not have thought twice about this...but today I cannot let my guy friends fall for this.

I let them know they are bad in bed, and are really quite clueless into knowing how to please.

Most think I am crazy. They will believe what they want ... most balk at the notion they are bad in bed....!

That is until they start to ask this of their other girl "friends"...and come to be amazed at how much "faking" it really goes into this.

I have yet to find one of my "renter" girlfriends/married friends who tell me they never fake it. The rarity of great SF is starting to rank with the lost art of Atari...simply doesn't exist anymore in marriages.

I tell my guy friends ... you can marry "that" but I promise you unless you are truly without any reservation meeting her needs and/or giving her proper care you will not have a marriage with lasting SF. SF will be the first thing to go beacuse you will drain her lovebank quickly by not meeting her needs.

They will either heed the advice or not ... I don't really care. I simply supply my 2cents and move on!!!


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Originally Posted By: ak1
Originally Posted By: Zhamila
So, after 6 months of silence, Dream Dude texted me out of the blue. We bantered a bit, though I was excited, anxious and afraid all at once. Suddenly I realized, "I can't be friends with him! It'll shred my heart!" So I told him if his intention was to be friends, I couldn't do it because of my feelings. Haven't heard from him since. Maybe he was jonesing, or just bored & figured I was an easy target.

Sad all over again, but I feel like I have more solid closure now. And I feel stronger.

I can only be friends with boys I'm not in love with. wink


Well, there you go, if you can't be friends with him because of your emotional connection and desire to be with him, then it would make sense that men may not want to be friends with you because of their physical connection and desire to be with you.

So after all I wrote about physical attraction with men, I'm curious, what exactly makes you feel that attraction towards a man? An instant attraction makes me think it has something to do with his looks, posture, perhaps how he dresses.

Perhaps you can smell him? smile

It's what you pointed out in the other thread, ak. The witty repartee we shared. Silly, eh?

I mean, he is handsome to me (not a Ken doll, but I found him instantly attractive in his Mr. Rogers sweater & glasses - seriously). We had FUN together, he felt safe to me (not a woman-ogler, not a controller), and I respected his life, values, work, etc. Not a rich dude but had his act together.

He was so nervous when he approached me - I was smitten by that! He was so respectful, not wanting to interrupt my convo with my girlfriend, so waited until I got up to go the restroom. I mean, everything considerate and so it continued.

That's why I found him so irresistible. (sigh) It's been a very. difficult. weekend.

Perhaps I should've tried to be friends, just so I could see him again...


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Elizabeth Bowen

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Originally Posted By: Zhamila

He was so nervous when he approached me - I was smitten by that!


I really like that too. Know exactly what you're talking about.


Originally Posted By: Zhamila


Perhaps I should've tried to be friends, just so I could see him again...



I'm sure I've heard Dr Harley on the radio tell women not to waste their time being hung up on men who don't love them. We just don't seem to be as up for the wooing game as men are and he says that's ok. His advice to men is not quite the same. Though he doesn't tell them to go after women who are unsuitable or who are very cool, he's ok with them pursuing the romance in a friendship a bit more and working on it.

I can't remember exactly what he said but the gist was that while women can and should ask men out on dates they shouldn't be the driving force in 'making it happen'. He used the example of himself and Joyce. Joyce didn't love him but he loved and courted her. He said he didn't advise that situation though if the roles were reversed. He didn't want a woman to put in very much work, because she would have to continue that work after marriage and wouldn't get her ENs met. It's also sort of like the way he doesn't advise women to do a lengthy Plan A. It's off putting to men to be pursued and women find it wearying to do.

I couldn't be friends with a man I was really into who didn't feel the same. Too hard on my feelings.

I think your instincts were right. I also think you phrased it to him very cleverly. That's a massive hit of admiration you gave him by saying you liked him too much to be platonic. If he doesn't bite at that piece of bait, it's never going to happen.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Quote:

This is so spot on ... before I found MB I would not have thought twice about this...but today I cannot let my guy friends fall for this.

I let them know they are bad in bed, and are really quite clueless into knowing how to please.

Most think I am crazy. They will believe what they want ... most balk at the notion they are bad in bed....!

That is until they start to ask this of their other girl "friends"...and come to be amazed at how much "faking" it really goes into this.


My best female friend (26yrs) is dating & experimenting with sex a lot this year, and has yet to meet the first guy that is able to please her... but if she really likes a guy, the no SF part is completely irrelevant to her. So that pretty much confirms the quote, i think.

Could not live with a faker... That's just another form of lying really isn't it?

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Gerold I agree, another form of lying, okay in a freeloader situation, but a setup for future hurt otherwise.

If any guys are looking for female friends, I was at Zumba with my daughter last night, and for the first time there was a guy there too. We welcomed him right into the sisterhood we have there.

I am thinking it makes a lot of sense for singles to develop opposite sex activity partner friends with folks they are not very attracted to. For a guy for example, after a while she'd like you so much she'd introduce a friend to you.


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Now that I'm older, I totally don't understand faking pleasure. I've faked twice in my life (which is kind of funny for a guy to say that) but at this juncture if I were single I'd just be honest about what wasn't working.

I was lucky enough in my late teens and early 20s to be 'shown the ropes' and have guides/teachers. If a guy is lousy in bed, it's because he's continually lied to that he's providing satisfaction. It seems like it'd just be much easier to verbalize your likes and at least have some fun out of intimate activity.

I've never had an issue approaching women. And I've always prided myself on being on top of my game and in my marriage continually trying to one up myself. But I also believe that if a woman was interested in me, then let me know and if I'm interested in pursuing, then it's a win win situation. I don't do high maintenance and I don't believe in games and assumptions. Tell me what you need and want and if I can provide, I will. If I can't, then I don't want to waste surgery of our time.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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