I was looking for it in my posts, because I was a participant on the thread, but I can't seem to find it I'm afraid.

Actually, I was surprised to hear him argue that it is ever possible. And the very minimal kind of communication that he described (prohibiting, for example, discussing anything that is really meaningful to you) did not seem, to me, to describe anything resembling a friendship as that term is understood in ordinary parlance. Perhaps it might be better expressed as "it is possible to have OS acquaintances who are not privy to much in the way of personal life details, but with whom connections are not solely restricted to commercial or quasi-professional interactions". You know, a casual conversation with a neighbour while gardening.

Although, I know that I have seen that frowned upon, too, if either person is married.

I agree that the stricter understanding is safer for married people. But this thread is under "General Discussion" so I thought it ok to bring it up.

And, to add my own input to the actual question raised - can men and women be "just" friends? (ie., outside of marriage). In my experience, they can.

Yes. I pick up kids sometimes when a mother might ask me to.
But we aren't friends.

Zhamila,

I'm going to turn this around on you...

Suppose you had a male friend that really liked being around you, he liked who you are, what you believe, your personality, how you dress, found you physically attractive, etc.

He spent time with you because it made him feel good, and he wanted more. He wants to be more than friends.

What could he do to win your heart? Just hang out and try to meet your needs? Try not to hint at his desire for more?

ak

When I was single, I (and my guy friends were the same way) don't remember having friends that were females that a physical relationship wouldn'thave been turned down.

SC, the reply about OS friends is in the newsletters section.

JK, I don't get it, mothers who aren't friends with you ask you to pick up their kids? I have men and women coworkers who are friends but it is the women ones I asked when I needed another name for the emergency contact card for the kids' schools. I assumed the guys would say no, is that wrong?

I've read that, thank you NED, and it seems that Dr Harley's article isn't so much a discussion of whether it is possible for men and women to be "just friends", but more a warning that if OSFs are to be non-threatening to a marriage, there must be strict boundaries that do not allow ENs to be met.

From your point of view, Zhamila, these men are not meeting your ENs, so you can see them as just friends, but from the point of view of the "more persistent gents", however, you are meeting some of theirs. That is why they can't be just friends with you, and why they keep trying to be more. It may be that you are erecting barriers that stop them meeting your ENs, but it is entirely possible that one of your friends will meet an important EN one day.

I am woman and I have a ton of guy friends. I am not sure if it's because I am a strong extrovert or because I am an engineer. I Enjoy the company of my many guy friends. I really have no idea what they think of me. I try not to assume much of men. I wouldn't think they would play games with me, and I genuinely believe they are invested in our friendships. I must be meeting some EN's I suppose. I seem to be the stronger one ... i.e. miss social butterfly. I set up our time together...play dates with kids ... hanging out at the house or out and about on the weekends.

I seem to be ciphering off EN's from them differently, so not one in particular is overloading my system. I have one in particular I realized I may be addicted to talking to him ... not sure why I think about him. Things come in my life daily, and I feel like texting him or telling him about it. All I know is I find myself talking to him a lot.

We are friends. We both expressed the desire to remain friends, but sometimes I wonder why we aren't dating. I try not to assess or assume anything with anyone so I just go with the flow, and continue on my path of bonding with the opposite sex.

I think a key to all of this EN meeting is time. The time you spend putting into EN meeting is what will make it love or not.

I work mostly with men ... and there have been a few I have really developed a bond with. Yes dating was discussed, but life, kids, etc. Get in the way, so it was always decided to remain friends. Not one has said they don't want to remain friends. I seem to pick guys in my life that I can have great conversation with ... so maybe this gift of mine ("Talking") is their treasure EN meeter!!!

I don't know ... all I know is I'd be lost without my guy friends. They mean the world to me, and I feel like maybe I'm part male because I just connect with them different.

I am loving this conversation. Thanks everybody!

This is a really good question. I don't know if it's a character quirk or what, but I am sort of an "instant chemistry" kind of person. I can tell really quickly whether a man appeals to me romantically or not. And if he does not - well, then I'll never be attracted to him romantically, no matter what he does or says. Never.

Case in point: my dear friend "Mitch" from college and I have been friends for 20+ years now. I 'love' him and enjoy him tremendously. But he confessed (a few years ago) that he was romantically interested in me - I made it clear that I was not, but would love to continue our friendship if he felt he could. We are still friends...that's all it will ever be (to me).

Every single man with whom I've been "in love" has had some mysterious - immediate - attraction to me. And if I don't feel that connection, I cannot muster up the feelings later.

Right now I have more male friends than ever in my life - but every single one of them has expressed romantic interest in me at some point. They are still willing to be "friendsies." I hope I'm not frustrating them or anything, but seriously - it's not gonna happen. (sorry!)

Funny thing about ENs - and a little side-note from a conversation I had with Steve Harley last year - I asked him, "Can literally ANY two people fall in love?" Because we were talking about whether a person could "learn" how to meet any other person's ENs (my xH, at the time). He said his Dad (aka Dr. Harley) thinks so, but that he personally wasn't convinced that ANY man could make ANY woman fall in love with him. He gave room for a little mystery or something.

Oh and for the record, even with that "instant chemistry" thing, the 5 ENs have to follow at some point, or it sort of shrivels up. The chemistry remains, but the rational part of me edges away emotionally.

This is a very interesting point, SugarCane. I wonder if it will turn out to be true for me?

I have been in love a handful of times in my life, and it was always with a person I had an instant attraction for. The ones who "wooed" me (wrote poetry, bought me presents, dated me - but I felt zero attraction for) never captured my heart. I even dated several of the "wooers" - some for years - but was never in love. Heck, I even married one! Stupid, eh?

I even told myself, "love will grow." It didn't.

Now, I admit I've been "friends" with a man or two I had a crush on. But they weren't interested in me, and I would NEVER have divulged my feelings. So, nothing ever happened.

So true NED!

I have lots of women friends.

Just seems like the dude-friends have "come out of the woodwork," so to speak. Hm...maybe it's because I'm...SINGLE?

(gasp) You mean...you weren't worried about "ruining the friendship?" lol, Kilted! Love this.



*hope i read this correctly!*

Again, "Science Confirms the Obvious!"

Here are some other late-greats:
- Exercise is good for you
- Keeping guns out of the hands of troubled individuals, saves lives
- Driving when drunk is unsafe
- Smoking a lot of pot can make your mind fuzzy

...and much more!

Anyhoo, I think what surprised me is that women (by and large) thought platonically about their male friends, whereas the men (by and large) did not. But this shouldn't surprise me, as women's top ENs are non-sexual, whereas a man's #1 (generally) is SF. So, ok, like duh.

Personally, I find the ability to accept the word 'no' confidently pretty attractive. Men who pressure are taking the pursuit too far. Being asked out, but knowing you can say no and no one will get moody or hurt makes it a much freer decision. I know women who have said 'no' and changed it to 'yes' because the reaction was so cheerful and friendly.

I know another friend who went on a date with a perfectly nice guy, but she didn't want to be his girlfriend straight away as such. He sent a plethora of texts pressuring her to 'give him a chance' as though she owed him something. Even when she moved!

One of the reasons my boyfriend appealed to me was that he offered to remain friends if I didn't want to date him. That was nice and pressure-free. I was already really into him but it made me like him that much more.

Essentially she either feels it or she doesn't. Perhaps now, perhaps later.



I've heard Dr H say that if a man is willing to talk at length with a woman, love is nearly a foregone conclusion. I don't think the same thing is true the other way around.

It's been my experience that while there are some men who truly think of some women purely platonically, they are a minority. Most men tend not to bother developing friendships in barren places.

Think of the average male friendship (I realise I am stereotyping) - low maintainance where gifts/affection and intimate conversation is required. Women tend to be higher maintainance friends (try skipping christmas cards!). If a man is putting in that effort, he's motivated.

Think of it like this: very often a women who wants sex (a high male need) is in love, or at least attracted. It makes sense that a man who is talking (a high female need) is similarly motivated.

I would view wooing as pressure if it isn't being welcomed. I'd be more likely to fall for the helpful friend who listened to me in a "love will grow" situation.



Dr H believes in chemistry. Have you read about his experiments with college students? He used to wire up female students and test their reactions to male students. Reactions ranged from dud to "off the charts". He would then encourage the man to ask the woman on at least one date because there was clearly a spark.

Also, his dating advice seems to encourage us to look for chemistry. Be a freeloader initially, seek out lovers and likers, only marry if passionately in love, don't ponder too hard on a dating relationship trying to "make it work".

However he has had success creating love between people who have never been in love, such as arranged marriages. For that to work though they need to be in a pre-designed 'bubble' purposefully protecting from all unpleasantness and on their best, most appealing behaviour.

If you think about it, that's what happens in affairs too. The APS are always pleasant, putting a good face on at all times and saving alll the unpleasantness for the spouse. That's why waywards fall for such odd, unsuitable people and why the relationsip doesn't last. The bubble wasn't designed, it just happened organically and they never learn how to prolong the bubble.

Love all your thoughts, Indie!

So now I'm getting a little sad thinking about this. If men only bother spending time with women they ultimately want to have sex with - do men view women as 'targets,' not as human beings, or real people?

Ick.

Would someone please explain this in a different way? Kindly soften the blow, as it sounds kind of yucky to me right now.

Good points!
I hadn't heard about the 'college chemistry test' - that cracks me up.

Glad you weighed in, Indie. Thanks!

No because there are plenty of women offering casual sex and even paid-for sex. Men would never put in so much effort with a friend if that's all they wanted.

One of the reasons Dr H tells women to specifically avoid sex in the dating world. Sex does not mean love.

Keep in mind that most men need an emotional relationship with a woman much more than women need it. Single women do great; they have close relationships with others and take an active role in the community typically. Conversely men die even younger than their married counterparts and suicide and alcohol levels rocket for single men.

Women meet each other's ENs much better than men do.

However the emotional relationship men crave will probably need a sexual element to be involved somewhere down the line. Lets not confuse the EMOTIONAL need of SF with the physical need. Men who have an EN for SF want to feel close and bonded with their loved one and best friend on all levels. Men who have a physical need for it simply want sex...with anyone.

OK, Indie. That makes sense. Not feeling quite as queasy now.

I believe I've also heard Dr. H also say that women are better at meeting men's ENs than the other way around. And research consistently shows that marriage is a much better 'deal' for men than for women (i.e. men are happier, healthier, etc while there is no such correlation for women).

I wonder if part of the reason women are better at meeting men's needs is because they've been conditioned by culture for millennia to do so. Whereas by and large, men don't think it's "cool" or "manly" to be good at meeting a woman's needs (a shame, imo). Our culture encourages women to be sexy, pretty, agreeable, domestic, etc - all ENs of guys.

However, when our culture talks to men the messages are very different - rarely do we see men being encouraged to be affectionate, conversant or financially supportive/family committed. Quite the opposite: there are strong messages to men to throw off any other person's desires and keep themselves happy (Drink more! Watch more sports! Pretend you don't care about your kiddos or your wife!) It's a real shame.

Men fight an uphill battle with little encouragement from each other to become great partners. I wonder why? It's kind of a bummer and ultimately I suspect it doesn't make men happy in the long run. But I'm not a guy, so I can only speak from outside observation.