Marriage Builders®
Posted By: CWMI Duped - 10/01/10 06:26 PM
I feel SO stupid.

Long story short, for those who do not know my story: major marriage issues related to my H's old job, which he took against my wishes, issues related to after-hours parties/functions/events/howeveryouwanttoclassifythem that I was not invited to attend, and overnight travel. Coached with SH for six months, SH told my H to find a new job that had my support. H found one and changed jobs about four months ago.

NOW: H announced that he must attend an event this weekend and I am not invited to accompany him. I can go to it, since it is a public event, just not with him, I am not allowed into the arena where he will be enjoying food and wine with the invited special guests. AND next month he is required to be four states away for training for three days.

He told me, after the interview with this new place, that they encourage spouse participation at events and spouses are always invited, and that all training was local.

Lies, all of it.

He has now revealed that he never discussed with them during the interview phase that overnight travel or spouse-excluding events would be reasons why he would not be able to accept the job if offered. He asked a couple of questions about it and INFERRED that spouses were invited to events and training was all local.

He was wrong.

And now he's mad at ME. Threatening D again, because I don't like it. I asked him why he changed jobs in the first place if he was going to continue to demand that I tolerate the things I despised about the last job? What was the point?

He said he made a MISTAKE, he was mistaken about what he inferred from the interview, and now I must either tolerate it (by which he means support it--has said that!) or GTFO.

I asked if he would get with SH again. He said no, that all that talking with SH would accomplish is ME USING SH TO MANIPULATE HIM INTO DOING WHAT I WANT.

I'm livid and out of plans excepting B and D, neither of which I'm enthusiastic about doing. I'm more enthusiastic about B, but it's still going to be tough on the kids. I don't know that I can get him out without an order. Why am I not ready to call it quits???? The whole thing is ridiculous, going through a whole job change to address these specific issues and not seeing to it that they are actually being addressed, lying to your spouse to get support, it's shoplifting! He hijacked my support by lies.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/01/10 06:33 PM
(((CWMI))) I'm so sorry about all this.

You are in a very difficult position. It really does come down to:

Quote:
now I must either tolerate it (by which he means support it--has said that!) or GTFO.


He KNEW these things were important to you and didn't work to ENSURE they were addressed, he assumed and told you they WERE to get you off of his back.

That's IB at it's best.

He can't shove that on to you. This wasn't a 'mistake' this was him trying to APPEASE you to get what he wants. Him > you + marriage.

It isn't manipulative to negotiate, especially when a previous POJA no longer has your enthusiasm. That's how it works. You stop being enthusiastic, you go back to negotiating. But it seems like he's interested in MB only as APPEASEMENT, not really to make his marriage better. He just wants you off his back and the freedom to make choices on his own.

B/D really seems the only route to go - unless you want to continue to live this way forever.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/01/10 07:11 PM
It wasn't even a POJA since vital information was withheld from me--no, vital information was misrepresented to me.

POJA requires RH.

His last message to me was: "You are making my choice so easy." This was after I told him that I would not remain on the phone with him if he continued to threaten me. So I hung up right after hearing, "I'm telling you right now, if you don't"

And he calls ME controlling. Self-delusion much?
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/01/10 07:18 PM
I agree, it wasn't POJA. I was saying more as a "even if it WAS a POJA, that doesn't mean an issue is settled for ever" type thing.

CWMI - what do you want?

I don't think it is possible to keep this marriage without drastic measures. You can change you all you want, but in the end you need help pulling this marriage out of the mud.

What do you want CWMI? What can you achieve? What are you willing to DO? What will you absolutely NOT do?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/01/10 08:05 PM
I want what I was told I would have.

I have shouts out to 'pressureizers' who have told me that they will talk with him, today.

I'll set up for plan B. Right now, I'm depending on him getting the little kids off to school, but if I can work with my 13yo to walk them to the bus, I can get them ready and get to my school on time, otherwise I can still drop my first period class without penalty, but that decision must be made by the 8th.

Conversely, if he files for D, I'm granting custody and will move out on my own. I'm pretty confident that the prospect of him being responsible for the kids 80% of the time will be a big deterrent to that. He said last night that he would get the kids on Sunday. I said, oh no, you'll get them everyday, then try to do your parties and out of town trips, have fun!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/01/10 08:13 PM
You were not DUPED. You just PERCIEVE it that way. There is a huge difference between BEING DUPED and PERCIEVING THAT YOU ARE DUPED.

If this issue causes you to think about divorce, then your marriage has many many more important problems besides this one.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/01/10 08:31 PM
Quote:
He told me, after the interview with this new place, that they encourage spouse participation at events and spouses are always invited, and that all training was local.


Quote:
he never discussed with them during the interview phase that overnight travel or spouse-excluding events would be reasons why he would not be able to accept the job if offered. He asked a couple of questions about it and INFERRED


Sorry, but this is a lie. Plain and simple. He stated two things: spouses are encouraged to participate and training was local. He stated these two things as facts, when he knew they weren't. He had no authority to back up his assertions. He didn't bother to ask the interviewer specifically. Why? Because it wasn't that important to him. He did a little sniffing around, but didn't specifically ask.

Honesty would be "I believe from what other employees said that spouses are included at events, and there was no mention made of travel for training."

Instead he said "Spouses are welcome to events and there is no travel involved."

He couldn't know that, he couldn't state it certainly, yet he did - to get CWMIs approval.

The issue isn't that he has a party to go to and some travelling to do and you know that Bubbles. The issue is that he doesn't care about what is important to CWMI, he makes minor efforts to get her off his back and proceed to do what makes him happy. THIS isn't the issue that causes the thoughts of divorce, this is the proverbial straw breaking this marriage's back.

She readily admits that this marriage has many problems. I'm sure CWMI will admit to some blame, but by no means is her husband innocent.

Knowing your spouse's feelings and values, purposefully obfuscating and exaggerating the truth to get your way at the expense of those values and feelings is Independent Behavior. It is at the heart of these issues, and there is little CWMI can do to curb that but remove herself from it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/01/10 09:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa

Knowing your spouse's feelings and values, purposefully obfuscating and exaggerating the truth to get your way at the expense of those values and feelings is Independent Behavior. It is at the heart of these issues, and there is little CWMI can do to curb that but remove herself from it.


This is the part that makes me want to scream. And IB is the entire reason why I would insist he take custody of our children if he filed. He wants to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it without regard for anyone else, and he lost that privilege when he created a family.

I'm madder still because things have been so awesome, everything I've ever wanted from my marriage, and then selfish entitlement reared its ugly head, again. I want what I had LAST WEEK. Last month. Yesterday morning.
Posted By: ivy45 Re: Duped - 10/01/10 09:22 PM
c'mon - your own children mean so little to you that you'd be willing to give up custody of them just to punish your husband?

SERIOUSLY?

they must feel really cherished.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/01/10 09:48 PM
No, he's willing to give up his whole family to go to a party, my intent is to show him that he cannot do that. He has responsibilities beyond himself. Enforceable responsibilities, through court.

I already said it's a deterrent tactic from his threatened abandonment. Are you suggesting that I support his abandonment of his children ("I'll take them on Sundays")??? Or say, that's okay, you go play, I've got this? As a FIRST move?

Ridonkulous! I will employ the cards I hold, thank you. I've got a H who thinks divorce means freedom, but forgets that he also has children who deserve more than a check in the mail. My kids are not checks. My kids are big strong reasons to have two parents, together, in a mutually supportive marriage. I'll fight for that, with everything I have. That's why Plan B includes ME having the kids daily, and plan D (if filed by him) includes HIM taking them. It's a huge responsibility, and a deterrent to someone who thinks they can just walk away.
Posted By: ivy45 Re: Duped - 10/01/10 10:09 PM
well, of course, when you divorce, you should both share responsibility for your children's care and financial support, and I'd think that losing half your time with your children would be pretty hard for you to take (I'm assuming). Saying you want to lose all of it just to show him he can't get away with it... Wow... Even as a scare tactic, just the fact that you're happy to gamble with your children. Wow.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/01/10 11:17 PM
If my H wants to divorce me on the sole basis of being happier doing what he wants when he wants without responsibility to others, I think he SHOULD have to bear the majority burden of what he is attempting to walk away from.

Why should I have to?

I'm trying to save this family.

Not help him destroy it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/01/10 11:21 PM
ivy, I'm not some gal who wants out. My END GOAL is an intact family with my H and I married. Our children, while not pawns, remain leverage.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/01/10 11:23 PM
This is all speculation on my part. But if he thinks divorce means freedom, then he is not enjoying being married. This means that needs are not being met and lovebusting is going on. Basically he is not happy with his spouse if he thinks D means freedom.

More speculation...
Using MB as appeasement was mentioned. This would seem to implty that he feels badgered or worn down by constant demands or having to live in what he considers unrealistic expectations of a spouse but is afraid to say something because of how CWMI will react.


He was desperate to find a different job because the job conflict was a constant source of fighting. So he found one, asked a few questions that made it seem like everything was 100% spouse friendly and travel wasn’t an issue, and just ran with it at face value. Or they indicated that a little travel would happen and occasionally a black tie happening would pop up that was employees only. He figured that he could at least get some appeasement for the time being and would put up with her being mad later. It’s like the whole ‘better to ask for forgiveness than permission.’
Again, this is all just a guess.
CWMI, I’d say that he’s not exactly happy in the marriage either but perhaps he’s a conflict avoider. So now he goes for the gusto and just puts up a wall.

You said he did mention feeling manipulated by SH into getting what you want. Maybe he really does feel that way. Maybe he feels like he has to bend to your desires and forego what he wants as in the saying ‘if mom aint happy, aint no one happy’. Maybe you should ask him why he feels manipulated by MB.

Whether any or all of this is ridiculous or not, he isn’t honest with his feelings for a reason. Maybe this is worth investigating.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/02/10 12:04 AM
cwmi, I know we don't aways see eye to eye, but I do want to send you some (((hugs))) anyway, I know this has got to be tough right now.

Do you have friends family who can be strong for you right now?

You're kids may well feel unstable right now, too, do you have some routines they enjoy that you can maintain?
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/02/10 12:19 AM
Originally Posted By: ivy45
c'mon - your own children mean so little to you that you'd be willing to give up custody of them just to punish your husband?

SERIOUSLY?

they must feel really cherished.


hmmm, that's unfair

btw, you're indirectly implying that her husband doesn't "cherish" his children because he is the one threatening D and is comfortable seeing his offspring on Sundays

CWMI just wanted his honesty about his job. She wants her husband to have marriage-family friendly employment. He misled her to believe that's what his new employer is.

She's the one looking out for her family. He'd rather be dishonest.
When she M her husband and had children with him, I'm sure she assumed he would make their M and family higher priority. He doesn't.

He'd rather be single than M. Fine for him. That doesn't mean that he quits being a father. He can be a single father and take responsibility for his actions of dissolving his M.
Letting him have custody of the kids isn't a lack of cherishing.

I know that sounds harsh, but I'm frustrated that moms are expected to go for full custody and that they are viewed as less loving if they don't. That assumption really hinders women economically and more important, emotionally. A mom isn't necessarily less loving because she doesn't have full custody.

If I were to D my H, you'd bet he'd get custody. I love my kids very much, but love doesn't pay the bills or catch up my retirement savings. The parent who is the primary caregiver usually faces economic disadvantages by doing so. Kids take time and that translates into decreased earning potential whether it's dad or mom who cares for the kids.

If CWMI's H chooses D, he won't be working his job for long. Unless he makes real good $$$, it won't be cost effective to pay someone to cook, clean and babysit his children for days on end. kwim?

He maybe unhappy in his M, but gosh, he seems disconnected as what it takes as a single dad. He should be willing to work on his M, not be willing to throw his family away.
Posted By: wannatry Re: Duped - 10/02/10 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
This is all speculation on my part. But if he thinks divorce means freedom, then he is not enjoying being married. This means that needs are not being met and lovebusting is going on. Basically he is not happy with his spouse if he thinks D means freedom.

More speculation...
Using MB as appeasement was mentioned. This would seem to implty that he feels badgered or worn down by constant demands or having to live in what he considers unrealistic expectations of a spouse but is afraid to say something because of how CWMI will react.


He was desperate to find a different job because the job conflict was a constant source of fighting. So he found one, asked a few questions that made it seem like everything was 100% spouse friendly and travel wasn’t an issue, and just ran with it at face value. Or they indicated that a little travel would happen and occasionally a black tie happening would pop up that was employees only. He figured that he could at least get some appeasement for the time being and would put up with her being mad later. It’s like the whole ‘better to ask for forgiveness than permission.’
Again, this is all just a guess.
CWMI, I’d say that he’s not exactly happy in the marriage either but perhaps he’s a conflict avoider. So now he goes for the gusto and just puts up a wall.

You said he did mention feeling manipulated by SH into getting what you want. Maybe he really does feel that way. Maybe he feels like he has to bend to your desires and forego what he wants as in the saying ‘if mom aint happy, aint no one happy’. Maybe you should ask him why he feels manipulated by MB.

Whether any or all of this is ridiculous or not, he isn’t honest with his feelings for a reason. Maybe this is worth investigating.


Really? For a lot of men (and women, for that matter) D IS freedom. It is freedom by definition. Some people would prefer never having to negotiate or answer to anyone than be happily married. Furthermore, many people regret getting divorced when they realize that being free and single isn't all it's cracked up to be and they wish they hadn't gotten divorced. But they def. had much more "freedom". That isn't to say that CWMI's H doesn't feel worn down or badgered. He probably does. He doesn't want to put up with it anymore. CWMI had two options: leave or try to get her H to put their marriage first. He doesn't want to, so any attempt on her part is badgering. Or maybe she resorts to what he perceives as LBs to get what she wants. Since he wasn't O & H that really absolves her of a lot of guilt in my opinion...

If you are suggesting the CWMI love busted in reaction to finding out that her H lied about something that is at the core of their marriage troubles and did not put their marriage first, I think she might agree. But that doesn't change the fact that even after 6 months of MB counseling he still isn't putting his marriage first. CWMI doesn't have to be perfect in order for her husband to put the marriage first. He feels prodded...I get the vibe that he always feels prodded and is okay going along with whatever. He didn't want to rock the boat during the job interview process and he doesn't want to rock the boat with his employer. I bet he doesn't want to rock the boat with CWMI, either, but she isn't giving him a choice. Its up to her what she is willing to put up with.

KT, your impressions are probably somewhat accurate other than the freedom thing...and you probably know that situation better than I do...so...what do you suggest she do? Your post seemed like you were just stating that this was probably her fault...which doesn't seem helpful or maybe what you intended?

CWMI: I am so sorry you are going through this. Another thing: my H is in a "VIP" event-heavy industry. There has never, ever, ever been a situation where a spouse was excluded. It does not happen. Now, it's not always obvious or automatic, my H occasionally has to say, "hey, I need a ticket/access for my wife" it has always been granted. Even when the other guys he works with were sure it wasn't possible, even when the lower level people/assistants balked. I bet it is a "duh" observation that your husband wouldn't "not take no for an answer" and make sure you could get into wherever he could go. Of course, his industry may be different...but I seriously doubt it. I bet if he was the type to go to bat for you and he told you you couldn't come it wouldn't sting as much. Well, it actually would, because he should have cleared that in his interview before he took the job...but he doesn't fight for you or your marriage it doesn't seem. Ugh. I am so sorry. Either way you sound like you are at the end of your rope. I don't blame you. I understand that nothing is as bad as an affair, but having gone through something similar a few years ago(H quitting a job that made marriage and family impossible only to change his mind a year later AFTER I got pregnant) I understand the depth of the betrayal.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Duped - 10/02/10 12:25 AM
Mama, you really are a rare jewel.
Posted By: wannatry Re: Duped - 10/02/10 12:26 AM
Originally Posted By: RareMamaJewel
Originally Posted By: ivy45
c'mon - your own children mean so little to you that you'd be willing to give up custody of them just to punish your husband?

SERIOUSLY?

they must feel really cherished.


hmmm, that's unfair

btw, you're indirectly implying that her husband doesn't "cherish" his children because he is the one threatening D and is comfortable seeing his offspring on Sundays

CWMI just wanted his honesty about his job. She wants her husband to have marriage-family friendly employment. He misled her to believe that's what his new employer is.

She's the one looking out for her family. He'd rather be dishonest.
When she M her husband and had children with him, I'm sure she assumed he would make their M and family higher priority. He doesn't.

He'd rather be single than M. Fine for him. That doesn't mean that he quits being a father. He can be a single father and take responsibility for his actions of dissolving his M.
Letting him have custody of the kids isn't a lack of cherishing.

I know that sounds harsh, but I'm frustrated that moms are expected to go for full custody and that they are viewed as less loving if they don't. That assumption really hinders women economically and more important, emotionally. A mom isn't necessarily less loving because she doesn't have full custody.

If I were to D my H, you'd bet he'd get custody. I love my kids very much, but love doesn't pay the bills or catch up my retirement savings. The parent who is the primary caregiver usually faces economic disadvantages by doing so. Kids take time and that translates into decreased earning potential whether it's dad or mom who cares for the kids.

If CWMI's H chooses D, he won't be working his job for long. Unless he makes real good $$$, it won't be cost effective to pay someone to cook, clean and babysit his children for days on end. kwim?

He maybe unhappy in his M, but gosh, he seems disconnected as what it takes as a single dad. He should be willing to work on his M, not be willing to throw his family away.


So well said.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:21 AM
{{{{{{{{CWMI}}}}}}}}

Finding out your spouse has been deceiving you is always painful. I'm saying a prayer for you!
Posted By: upandrunning Re: Duped - 10/02/10 04:30 AM
In this economy, is there such a thing as "marriage-family friendly employment"?

Are you in an area where one is able to pick and choose from a multitude of job offers that will meet every need/requirement without relocation or a major change in pay?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/02/10 08:15 AM
Originally Posted By: wannatry
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
This is all speculation on my part. But if he thinks divorce means freedom, then he is not enjoying being married. This means that needs are not being met and lovebusting is going on. Basically he is not happy with his spouse if he thinks D means freedom.

More speculation...
Using MB as appeasement was mentioned. This would seem to implty that he feels badgered or worn down by constant demands or having to live in what he considers unrealistic expectations of a spouse but is afraid to say something because of how CWMI will react.


He was desperate to find a different job because the job conflict was a constant source of fighting. So he found one, asked a few questions that made it seem like everything was 100% spouse friendly and travel wasn’t an issue, and just ran with it at face value. Or they indicated that a little travel would happen and occasionally a black tie happening would pop up that was employees only. He figured that he could at least get some appeasement for the time being and would put up with her being mad later. It’s like the whole ‘better to ask for forgiveness than permission.’
Again, this is all just a guess.
CWMI, I’d say that he’s not exactly happy in the marriage either but perhaps he’s a conflict avoider. So now he goes for the gusto and just puts up a wall.

You said he did mention feeling manipulated by SH into getting what you want. Maybe he really does feel that way. Maybe he feels like he has to bend to your desires and forego what he wants as in the saying ‘if mom aint happy, aint no one happy’. Maybe you should ask him why he feels manipulated by MB.

Whether any or all of this is ridiculous or not, he isn’t honest with his feelings for a reason. Maybe this is worth investigating.


Really? For a lot of men (and women, for that matter) D IS freedom. It is freedom by definition. Some people would prefer never having to negotiate or answer to anyone than be happily married. Furthermore, many people regret getting divorced when they realize that being free and single isn't all it's cracked up to be and they wish they hadn't gotten divorced. But they def. had much more "freedom". That isn't to say that CWMI's H doesn't feel worn down or badgered. He probably does. He doesn't want to put up with it anymore. CWMI had two options: leave or try to get her H to put their marriage first. He doesn't want to, so any attempt on her part is badgering. Or maybe she resorts to what he perceives as LBs to get what she wants. Since he wasn't O & H that really absolves her of a lot of guilt in my opinion...

If you are suggesting the CWMI love busted in reaction to finding out that her H lied about something that is at the core of their marriage troubles and did not put their marriage first, I think she might agree. But that doesn't change the fact that even after 6 months of MB counseling he still isn't putting his marriage first. CWMI doesn't have to be perfect in order for her husband to put the marriage first. He feels prodded...I get the vibe that he always feels prodded and is okay going along with whatever. He didn't want to rock the boat during the job interview process and he doesn't want to rock the boat with his employer. I bet he doesn't want to rock the boat with CWMI, either, but she isn't giving him a choice. Its up to her what she is willing to put up with.

KT, your impressions are probably somewhat accurate other than the freedom thing...and you probably know that situation better than I do...so...what do you suggest she do? Your post seemed like you were just stating that this was probably her fault...which doesn't seem helpful or maybe what you intended?



I’m not saying anything other than a few observations based on what CWMI has typed. I don’t know a lot of guys or girls that would rather be divorced than work on issues.

I’m not commenting on CWMI’s reaction to her husband and his job issue. I’m talking in general. CWMI’s husband has an ongoing issue with hiding the truth or delaying the truth. It has been theorized that because of the way CWMI interacts with her husband that he does not feel safe in being honest with her (as crazy as that sounds) because of how she’ll react to him.
And I would never say that this is CWMI’s fault.
Posted By: lostlovinfeeling Re: Duped - 10/02/10 11:50 AM
CWMI, I have IB issues with my H as well so I can understand how you feel about wanting your H to put his marriage and family first. I also have the same situation that H and I don't talk about much and I am sure that much of it has to do with my reactions (overreactions) in the past. I am not absolving my H from his half of the talking about issues problem because in a vacuum the things that have happened in the past would not have happened. It does take two. You can work on your reactions to things and not make the same mistakes in the future but it is in your husbands hands whether he wants to respond to the new way you are or if he wants to continue to live based upon what has happened in the past.

My H and I are trying to counsel with Steve H. So far, I am 'showing up' and 'doing the homework (HW)' and H, except one time, has had things come up. I believe, as does Steve H that my H also thinks that freedom is superior to a happy marriage. Since he can't see past our current situation to a different way of being together, H sees that it is easier to just leave. Freedom looks very good compared to the hard work of having a good marriage, especially when you realize that you may have to make some choices that involve changing some things about yourself and how you behave for the good of the marriage. My H becomes extremely resentful and about anything that he sees as unfair and unfortunately, this seems to be most things.

Anyway, too much about my situation but you suggested to me that I should also tell my H he will get full custody if he divorces me. After reading here and hearing other's input, I can see how that may have some advantages. Especially financial ones as I have worked at a lower level for many years now and sacrificed retirement to be more available for my family. (H is of course, resentful of this underemployment too even though he agreed to it.)

Steve H keeps telling me I need to try to get my H onboard with the idea that the goal is to create the best possible situation for raising our children, and that is a marriage where both parents are deeply in love with other. H keeps saying that kids from divorced families are ok as he is one and he is fine. Steve H says this is changing the question from, "What is best" to "Will the kids be ok" and my H does this very well and I have to keep steering him back.

Anyway, maybe you need to focus on the right question too, whatever that question is and perhaps, Steve H could guide you again. Your H is being selfish and putting himself first but maybe he can't see past today to the future. He is too stuck in the past. This is where my H and I are today; where I see possibility and he sees the easy way out and freedom from the past but without a clear future in mind. You can run to something new, it will be easier but creating a loving relationship with the other parent of your children will always be the best possible solution. Hang in there and keep fighting for the best outcome, not just an ok outcome.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/02/10 01:58 PM
cwmi, have you two seen the movie Fireproof yet?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:21 PM
Yes, we've seen Fireproof.

Lost, I don't even know what the right question is. What is best is my goal, but right now the only question I can think of is "How could you do this again? How could you take something that was going so well and was so beautiful and destroy it so swiftly?"

It's really taking up a lot of headspace today--he left two hours early this morning and I have no idea when he'll be home. He would only say he'll try to head home by five. I went all Yoda on him--do or do not, there is no TRY, lol.

Thing is, he would never tolerate that from me. A few years ago I went to an evening event without him (he was invited to go, just didn't want to) and told him I would leave there at 10. He called me several times, to say, "What cha doin? When you coming home? Will you bring me milk? Who all is there? Who are you talking to? Did you meet so-and-so?" I can't imagine what he would have called to say if I'd left without his blessing and told him I didn't know when I'd be home.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:30 PM
KT, if he would actually participate in POJA, that would clear up any feeling of manipulation. Honestly, I think it was just a ruse, a dirty word he threw around to divert attention from his actions. He does that a lot when he's called on something he's done against his word--tries to flip it back on me with stuff like manipulating, controlling, and chemically imbalanced (we know a couple where the W is actually imbalanced, so that's his new thing to throw at me--if I'm upset about something, it must be a chemical imbalance in my brain because a NORMAL person would not be upset about being lied to, duh).
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:35 PM
Originally Posted By: upandrunning
In this economy, is there such a thing as "marriage-family friendly employment"?

Are you in an area where one is able to pick and choose from a multitude of job offers that will meet every need/requirement without relocation or a major change in pay?



Yes and yes, but you've diverged from the issue. He had a good-paying secure job before. There was no benefit to him taking this new one if it wasn't going to solve the issue. He wasn't looking for a job because he needed one, he was looking for a job to resolve these issues.
Posted By: wannatry Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:46 PM
It really sounds like you are at the end of your rope with your H. What's your plan? If what you say about how he acts when you go out without him is true...how could he tolerate plan B? And, how would you know when to take him back if he isn't honest about stuff? Would he just agree to all your conditions and then later tell you he was manipulated?

Ugh, this sucks for you!
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: upandrunning
In this economy, is there such a thing as "marriage-family friendly employment"? Yep, and it's up to spouses to find it. Not every job out there requires traveling, party scenarios, etc. In fact, several positions today allow an employee to even work from home as part of the job description. Like I said, it's up to an individual to find that type of position (not implying that it's easy).

Are you in an area where one is able to pick and choose from a multitude of job offers that will meet every need/requirement without relocation or a major change in pay?
Actually, I'm in an area with one of the highest unemployment rates in the state. While there isn't a lot to pick and choose from, there is enough that a skilled person can find work that doesn't have them away working so far away that they can't be home for their families. To be fair though, many companies require that employees travel for a set time period in order to attend training. This seems to be the business trend right now.

Problem is, people don't usually want to look at their realities and do what's best for their given situation, they often prefer to do what's feels best for them. I'm not stating this as judgement, because for much of my adult life, I had done this too.

On a side note, I do believe that there are positions that are a better fit for couples-families. I also believe that corporations can be M-F friendly. Corporations that refuse to tolerate harassment and affairs are, for the most part, more supportive of M and families. Companies that turn a blind eye to work place affairs and have no problem with it's employees using a club or bar scene to conduct business generally are not. I base these beliefs on observations and experiences over the years.


Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: wannatry
It really sounds like you are at the end of your rope with your H. What's your plan? If what you say about how he acts when you go out without him is true...how could he tolerate plan B? And, how would you know when to take him back if he isn't honest about stuff? Would he just agree to all your conditions and then later tell you he was manipulated?

Ugh, this sucks for you!


Ugh is right! Just based on history, I would say you are right--he would agree to Plan B conditions and then accuse me of manipulating and controlling him.
Posted By: wannatry Re: Duped - 10/02/10 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: wannatry
It really sounds like you are at the end of your rope with your H. What's your plan? If what you say about how he acts when you go out without him is true...how could he tolerate plan B? And, how would you know when to take him back if he isn't honest about stuff? Would he just agree to all your conditions and then later tell you he was manipulated?

Ugh, this sucks for you!


Ugh is right! Just based on history, I would say you are right--he would agree to Plan B conditions and then accuse me of manipulating and controlling him.



I realize that my post wasn't very encouraging or helpful frown

If talking to Steve was one of the conditions...

I guess if you are at the end of your rope, it can only go up from here smile

I am sorry you are going through this.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/02/10 04:46 PM
[quote=CWMI]Yes, we've seen Fireproof.

Lost, I don't even know what the right question is. What is best is my goal, but right now the only question I can think of is "How could you do this again? How could you take something that was going so well and was so beautiful and destroy it so swiftly?"

I've dealt with the same issues with my husband although my circumstances were different. You might get angry when I say this, but the problem is that you are "there". This was my problem. I was "present" in the home, in the M. I was the one who was angry and upset from the lack of honest POJA. I turned myself inside out trying to get my husband to see his "issue". The only "issue" he saw was that I had the problem with "it" and "it" wasn't so bad that I was S or D.

Sad isn't it?

You have a similar situation with your husband. He doesn't see his dishonesty as a problem. You are the one that is upset about it, so you're the one with a "problem". He's basically telling you to deal with it or D. He's not changing, because it's not a problem for him.

Honestly, I don't think he believes that you will S or D. You made a "threat" when you told him he would have custody and he probably doesn't see you as being serious enough to follow through. He likely thinks you are being dramatic and manipulative.


It's really taking up a lot of headspace today--he left two hours early this morning and I have no idea when he'll be home. He would only say he'll try to head home by five. I went all Yoda on him--do or do not, there is no TRY, lol.

I have a feeling this is part of your dilemma. You tell him he's going to be a single dad. He says he'll see the kids on Sunday. He leaves 2 hours early and you have no idea when he'll be home. Then you go yoda on him. Bad, bad, bad. To him, going all Yoda was you just attempting to vent on him. You've got to quit that approach. It's only weakening you in his eyes and it's killing any respect he might have for you. It's a total love buster and it closes the love bank. He's seeing you as a push over. You gripe and complain, he listens for a few moments, then goes on his own way, leaving you to stew in your juices. You've got to stop this cycle of disrespect...toward him and toward yourself.

Why did you even go Yoda?
If you're not ready to S, prepared to turn and walk out the door and leave him and the kids there at the house, then don't say anything. Because S comes before D. When you S, he'll have the kids also. I doubt you intend to have the children outside of the courtroom so they can leave with him once D is granted.

Unless you are truly willing to D and give him full custody, don't say that you are.

You're going to have to be willing to do what you say you're going to do. State your boundaries and enforce your position.

Part of your problem is that you don't have healthy boundaries in dealing with his sense of entitlement. Now it's come to this.


Thing is, he would never tolerate that from me. A few years ago I went to an evening event without him (he was invited to go, just didn't want to) and told him I would leave there at 10. He called me several times, to say, "What cha doin? When you coming home? Will you bring me milk? Who all is there? Who are you talking to? Did you meet so-and-so?" I can't imagine what he would have called to say if I'd left without his blessing and told him I didn't know when I'd be home.

Tolerate is the key word here. He sets the tone and you follow along. Is this what you want in your M? If not, you might very well have to be willing to D and move on. If this is his real personality, then he isn't likely going to change. He sounds very selfish to me.

However, with lack of healthy boundaries and taking things to the extreme, it could be that you both feel the other is bluffing. I'm not sure which it is from reading your posts.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/02/10 05:13 PM
CWMI,

Reading further, I assume that it's selfishness on your husband's part, rather than a boundary issue.

Since there was 6 mos of counseling with SH, he should be getting it...he's not and that raises a flag that maybe he has some type of personality disorder. I know we don't like to use that here at MB, but some spouses just don't have it in them to N, POJA, O and H. They never will.

If he is just that selfish and has that "if you don't like it, too bad" attitude with everyone, then you might want to consider moving on with your children. Letting him have full custody won't change anything and will only leave your kids vulnerable to him. He won't emotionally connect with them nor even try to meet their emotional needs.

If he's being stubborn, that's one thing. But if constantly shifting blame, making excuses, and refusing to take ownership of his choices is how he consistently operates, then you will definitely want to consider moving on without him. And take the children with you, further minimizing his ability to destroy them with his selfishness.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this, CWMI
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 06:16 PM
I have long suspected NPD. SH suggested that my H get evaluated for OCD.

I asked him if he ever felt that he was responsible for any of his problems, and he said nope, couldn't think of a single time where his action (or inaction) led to a problem. Not even this here. He argues that if I would just accept parties and travel as a part of life, there wouldn't be a problem! So it was MY ACTION that created this situation, to him.

That's so crazy, I don't even know what to do with it.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/02/10 07:02 PM
Yikes, CWMI, if SH recommended your H get evaluated that indicates there is a problem bigger than what MB can handle.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 07:42 PM
That's not encouraging. frown

But I did talk to him a few minutes ago and he is leaving at five sharp, so that's a bit of relief. He would have been at work until then anyway if they hadn't sent him to this function. He's done a few of these here, where he will go during regular hours to an outside event as a rep for the company, but those are mid-week closed functions, like they hosted an invitation-only driving event at a small local airport--a place where prospective buyers could open up the car. I don't have an issue with that stuff, and I was invited to come hang out with him at the airport if I wanted to--I didn't, I had school.

I would have loved to gone where he is today, though. The whole "You are not welcome here and if you showed up I would not speak to you anyway" really hurts. Deep.

But I do give him props for nailing down an end-time for today. That helps. He *said* he would talk to his boss on Monday and tell him that he won't do any more of these where he has to tell his wife that she is unwelcome, and travel is a no.

They hold these training things and rather than like the last place where everyone was required to go, this place sends one representative who then 'shares' the information with the rest of the staff. My H said that his boss told him back at the interview that either boss man or or one of the other guys (a certain specific one) goes. It appears that he now wants to make my H the 'certain specific one' who goes, and that's not the deal H and I have. So, it will be easy enough to select one of the others to go, to either the training or the local events, perhaps one of the guys who is married to someone who doesn't have a problem with it!

I know he wants my support for his work. I want to give it to him, he is fantastic at his job. He's only been there for four months, and he's top dog already. It makes it impossible to support him when he HURTS me with it, though. I don't think he understands that concept. I've tried explaining it a hundred ways, he does not think it is valid. He easily accepts that the family should serve the job, which is just so wrong.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/02/10 08:29 PM
cwmi, I'm glad you guys saw that movie. For me it gave me some hope that helped me keep trying at a time I was feeling hopeless. Best wishes with this adventure, you know the pattern, you both puff up, and then by the next day y'all have kissed and made up. I know you feel duped, and that's got to feel awful, but you know not that much is different than last week; the only difference is that now you have the information you need to make informed decisions.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/02/10 09:07 PM
This job was supposed to address the pattern you speak of, Ned. If he follows through with what he said he would do, and takes care of it to eliminate it from our lives like he'd said he was doing from the start, we'll be okay, but we still have the little problem of his emotional abuse. It shouldn't take days and AFTER an event to handle stuff that was already supposedly handled.

We haven't had any issues for months until this. Until this, he was willing to negotiate if something came up that we had different opinions on--negotiate all the way until we were both happy. I don't understand why he stopped that and started back with his self-serving BS. Opportunity? I dunno.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/02/10 10:04 PM
I understand that this job looked on the outside as if it was going to address this problem. I get it that resolving these issues will become a pattern when you get there. And I understand that these issues don't pop up but just this one time the last 6 months.

Do you think maybe this disconnect is coming from still being in State of Conflict? Are you two still getting 20+ hours UA time? 15 hours FC time? I don't know what the missing link is, do you have a clue?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/03/10 01:37 AM
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Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/03/10 01:44 AM
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Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/03/10 04:36 PM
Maybe ask yourself this:

"What is the worst that could happen if I let him go on two short business trips a year?"

Most likely letting him go on a couple trips and one party a year...with your blessing...would not be worse..... than an ugly DIVORCE.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/03/10 06:35 PM
BTDT, he refused my phone calls and came home drunk off his butt. No thanks. We worked this out with the help of SH, remember? SH didn't suggest I just tolerate it, he told my H to get a new job where this stuff wasn't required of him.

Which he said he did.

Except he didn't.

Ned--the only thing I can think of that's off is we skipped church three weeks in a row. One was to go visit my FIL (high stress there). But we went today. I thought it was great, asked him afterwards what he took away from the sermon, and he said nothing, what was I looking for him to take away from it?

It was about technology and getting into more face-to-face interaction, but there was a part that hit me like a ton of bricks: the preacher (not Andy, another one) said that it should bother us if our loved ones don't care if we're distracted from them. And H does that--he WANTS me to not care if I don't have his attention. He wants me to not care if he cares for me or not. At least historically and very recently, but there was that little time period in there when stuff was as it should be.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Duped - 10/03/10 08:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
Maybe ask yourself this:

"What is the worst that could happen if I let him go on two short business trips a year?"

Most likely letting him go on a couple trips and one party a year...with your blessing...would not be worse..... than an ugly DIVORCE.


Bubbles, I'm suprised with a question like this.....

What's the worst that can happen?

As I understand MB, the goal here is to restore romantic love. Nobody restores romantic love by giving sacrifical blessings. Sacrificing is the antithesis of successfully practicing The MB Program.

CWMI's H is practicing half measures by lying. Lying is also a Love Buster! Honesty is NOT a Love Buster. CWMI has been honest about her needs and her H has deceived her and pretended to meet her needs.... Actually he betrayed her. He lied about an extraordinary precaution that CWMI needed in order to feel loved and cared about by him.

When we allow a boundary to be moved as a sacrifice, we establish a dangerous precedent that will do more harm to "us" than to our spouse. Eventually the lack of boundaries/EP's will erode the marriage and put the love bank in to a negative balance. A slow death of the M is the result.

Bubbles, you asked, what's the worst that can happen? Well, creating an environment for an affair to occur is much worse than establishing boundaries IMHO. Your spouse betraying you and actually having an affair can be worse than a divorce too.

I believe CWMI's vent about being duped was a legit. vent. She was lied to and betrayed by her H. I hope others will come along side of her and help her practice Dr. H's program in a practicle way instead of attempting to lay on inappropriate guilt for having boundaries and needs.

just my .02
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 10/03/10 09:57 PM
I find that my husband treats me the worst (pushing back, and blaming me) when he feels the most shame. When he feels that he has disappointed me "again" (his word).

Also, like your H,, I could see me misreading the entire interview situation. Feeling as if I had gotten clarity, and feeling that my questions were answered sufficiently, when really I had inadvertantly read between the lines.

In fact, I did this once. I attended an all-day interview. It was quite rigorous. During the course of the ay, I met with some of the people who held a comparable job. I asked them to describe their position, and had pointed questions for them. Frankly, it sounded like exactly the one I had come from, with the same kinds of hours I was currently enjoying.

In the very last interview of the day, I discovered that the hours were DRAMATICALLY different than what I had understood, and would have required extensive childcare for my daughter, where currently I had no such requirement.

Naturally, I withdrew from the process.

The point is, had someone not thought to tell me one detail about the job, I could have walked away from those interviews thinking that it was similar to what I had. Even after asked everything I could think of to be clear on the position.

What if your husband felt the same? What if he really and truly did his best and thought he had found something you woudl both be happy with?

To me, that sounds more consistent with how he has been acting... happy, invested, proud.

Now, this expectation comes up, and what happens? Suddenly, he is mean, accusatory, blaming, belligerent, threatening divorce, and coming home drunk.

Just from looking at the change, I strongly suspect that he was as surprised as you by this expectation. And now he is trapped, and full of shame.

He probably knows that he "blew it" with you, and he may not even know if he can fix it. Part of him may be glad to have developed their trust already to be "the guy", or he may be worried that to not be the guy will lead to termination.

I wonder what would happen if you assumed the best about him on this one (i.e. that he really thought he had investigated the situation as best as he could, and was surprised by this twist) and gently tried to work it all out with him.

I think gentle may be the key, because your husband reminds me in some ways of mine, and he is desperate for gentleness. It stuns me sometimes how mean he is to HIMSELF when he makes a mistake... No wonder he is tempted to lash out at me... He already feels like crap, like he has failed me... And when I talk about it, it reverberates in his head.

What's that line from Jerry McGuire? "That's the difference between you and me. You think we're fighting, and I think we're finally talking!!"

Gentle may well be the key to renegotiating all of this. Touch him sweetly before speaking. Help him to relax first. Then he may feel safer thinking through it all with you.

It's not your fault, but you may be able to help.

fwiw, I am not letting your husband off the hook, AT ALL.

I'm just trying to help you deal with what you have.

The other day, my H got distracted at work, and came home considerably later than expected, without a call. He was tense and on teh brink of defensive, and I was quietly upset.

As I watched him eat, I got so sad, cwmi. I saw that underneath what looked like anger on his face was really shame. I began to wonder how his food could even taste good when he was in so much pain.

I went behind him and hugged him and held him. He soon relaxed completely in my arms, and under my gentle kisses to the side of his neck. His gratitude for my love, healed me too.

Then (as a bonus) I got what I also needed. A heartfelt, soft, and sincere apology. We went on to talk about how it has been TOO busy, and what are we going to do to change that?

Anyway, I think you guys can work through this, and I think he really does love you.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/03/10 10:47 PM
Bubbles, if couples are working MB, part of MB is no overnight trips without the other spouse.

I really like what Telly had to say
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 01:15 AM
Yeah, not lying and not demanding that a spouse just 'put up with it' is a part of MB, too.

Telly, I hear you, I can see how a misunderstanding COULD take place, but it shouldn't have, because all of us (me, H, SH) discussed H finding a job that didn't require spouse-excluding events or overnight travel. He KNEW to put these restrictions on his job search, that there was no point in taking anything that required this. He knew to say, "I will not be present at any events that my wife is not invited to attend and will be unable to do any overnight travel. Will that be a problem if I accept a position here?" He KNEW this, we discussed it FOR MONTHS. I told him the very day he went to talk to them, Make sure you tell them you can't travel or do events, and he said he would and then said he did, it wouldn't be an issue.

I agree about being gentle. He told me on the phone. I said, "I'm not happy about that." Then he went ballistic. I'm (not) sorry, but I firmly believe that people who KNOWINGLY disappoint others deserve to hear that they've done so, and even those who unknowingly do it should be informed as well.

He has flip-flopped a couple of times about speaking up at work, is back to saying he will take care of it to my satisfaction. Because of the flips, I asked him how he thinks I should handle it if he doesn't follow through. He only said, "I will, so there's nothing to handle!"

I don't have high hopes.

I'm not happy to be in this position, again. I wish I had more options besides plans B, D, C or FU, but I know that I don't. I'm Plan A'd to death. C is emotionally destructive to myself, and I can't afford that. B and D are frightening, but I know they are my only option to remove myself from this continued lack of care and protection. I've withdrawn from my first period class to take care of that issue before the school deadline, but I haven't worked up any more of the plan yet.

I'll write up a letter tomorrow.

Then, honestly? I'll pray that he comes home with the solution and we can return to MBing instead of MDestructing.

If not, I'll have to follow through on Plan B, because I cannot trust negotiations. omg, I pray it works.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/04/10 12:47 PM
I've never heard of Plan C? Is is like Plan Concrete? I can only joke because I know you're not like that.

There may be like 100 intermediate steps you could take between Plan A and B, right? Maybe you could talk to Steve about a way to modify Plan B so you would be more enthusiastic about it, and less impacting on your kids. How about going to visit like your mom or someone for a weekend or a week, with or without some or all of the kids?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/04/10 06:40 PM
If a married couple can completely trust thier spouse like I can trust my husband, they can go on overnight trips without the other one a few times a year!

If you cannot trust your spouse not to have affairs on overnight trips, then you cannot trust them in any other way either and must keep them on a very very short, tight, painful choke chain and leash.

If you have to BE CRUEL to your spouse and pull the choke chain until they wince in pain to keep control of that beloved spouse, then your marriage is not worth much.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 06:45 PM
omg, my Mom would make it worse. She loved having her H away on business, hated him being home, then cheated on him and divorced him when he lost that job. No way! lol. I'm pretty sure she cheated on him the whole time, but I didn't live with them, so I'm not certain. She spent an inordinate amount of time at the bar...

Plan C is for "Compromise", which is what my H would like to see happen. He does what he wants and I put up with it. He has said that if I don't SUPPORT the travel and functions, he'll divorce me, he won't even tolerate me being detached, he needs me to be enthusiastic or he's done. lol. wow. That so blows my mind. I think I've repeated, "Then why did you change jobs?" at least 20 times over the last few days. All I hear is, "For YOU! I did it for you!" I'm all, wth? If he was doing something for ME, shouldn't it have been something I like??? That would be like me making him a mushroom lasagna and then getting mad that he doesn't LOVE it, never mind that I already know he doesn't like mushrooms.

Like me threatening to divorce him if he doesn't start liking mushrooms RIGHT NOW! Not just tolerating, or working around them, but really really loving them and being enthusiastic about me preparing them for him all the time!

Ridiculous example, but I'm feeling like I'm in the Twilight Zone here already, may as well go with it...
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 10/04/10 06:46 PM


My husband completely trusted me and I was completely trustworthy...right up until I wasn't.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/04/10 07:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
If a married couple can completely trust thier spouse like I can trust my husband, they can go on overnight trips without the other one a few times a year!


NOT Marriage Builders advice. This has NOTHING to do with trust and EVERYTHING to do with creating an affair proof marriage. EVERYONE is capable of having an affair. EVERY HUMAN BEING on this earth is capable of it.

Some people are more likely to than others. The difference between those that do and those that don't: Boundaries.

Plain and simple, that's it.

What can help, along with boundaries? A marriage lifestyle that makes an affair virtually impossible. This lifestyle includes:
The meeting of Emotional Needs,
Avoiding each other pain by avoiding Love Busters,
Spending enough time together giving one another Undivided Attention to create and sustain love,
Intimacy created through Radical Honesty,
Avoiding any possible Secret Second Life, which is created through dishonesy, and spending time apart.

Avoiding overnight travel is a safety precaution a couple puts into place, not because they believe their spouse will cheat, specifically, but because they realize that EVERYONE, including themselves, is capable of cheating under the right circumstances and would rather not take unnecessary risks with a relationship as important as marriage.

Rather than travel a winding mountain road at top speed hugging the edge, TRUSTing that they won't barrel over in the middle of the night, they build up a guardrail and drive as close to the mountain as possible at a reasonable speed.

Their marriage is important enough to not take unnecessary risks for the sake of proving how much they trust one another.

Quote:
If you cannot trust your spouse not to have affairs on overnight trips, then you cannot trust them in any other way either and must keep them on a very very short, tight, painful choke chain and leash.


NO ONE can be trusted to not have an affair, if they fail to put in proper precautions. CWMI is capable of having an affair if her husband goes on overnights. Her husband is capable of doing so as well.

Trust is created by trustworthy behavior. Proper boundaries is what creates trustworthy behavior. Not going on overnights away from your spouse is a healthy boundary that reinforces trust, it is not evidence of a lack thereof.

Quote:
If you have to BE CRUEL to your spouse and pull the choke chain until they wince in pain to keep control of that beloved spouse, then your marriage is not worth much.


The cruelty here is in CWMIs husband's desire to ignore her needs and what she needs to feel safe in this marriage, because it is inconvenient to him. She does not desire control, she desires consideration in the decision making process. Not to be made to feel like a servant to his job, but to have value in his life. WHY? Because she is the partner he committed to love and cherish ABOVE ALL OTHERS, not second to his job and career, but BEFORE everything else.

That was the promise he made to her.

It doesn't seem that CWMI wants to bludgeon her spouse into doing things her way, she desires a REAL POJA Negotiation in which they can BOTH be enthusiastically satisfied. Her husband continually confirms her second-class status in his life by hiding and obfuscating the truth.

HIS desires, HIS standing and HIS job are more important to him than her.

And THAT is the real cruelty.

She isn't asking for the unreasonable. She is asking to be included in his life, and is rightfully disappointed and hurt when he dismisses, appeases or outright lies to her. Should she not be?

This isn't about the travel.

This is about the outright and blatant disrespect he affords her through his Independent Behavior. She requires certain needs be met for her happiness and sense of safety. If he is unwilling to meet those needs, he needs to move on. He keeps promising that he can meet those needs, to CON her into staying married to him - for his own benefit (NOT for her benefit). But he fails to meet the needs again and again.

Are things getting better? Seems like it. Could they continue to get better? I believe so.

However, the thing I find MOST troubling about this, is his attitude towards MB that has been revealed. He felt bullied into POJAing....think about that for a sec. He felt manipulated at the sheer FACT that he had to consider his wife's needs.

The cruelty isn't manifested in CWMIs behavior here, not by a long shot.
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 10/04/10 08:38 PM
It's too bad your husband won't post here. I think that could be helpful to him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 08:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa

However, the thing I find MOST troubling about this, is his attitude towards MB that has been revealed. He felt bullied into POJAing....think about that for a sec. He felt manipulated at the sheer FACT that he had to consider his wife's needs.

The cruelty isn't manifested in CWMIs behavior here, not by a long shot.


Exactly.

Daily dish: he's decided to go back to the failed attempt before of taking me with him if he must go out of town overnight. Yeah, he's not getting out of the trip. How's that for a heck no he didn't discuss this during the interview?

So he said that, that if he ended up having to go, he would certainly take me with him and that he needed me to BELIEVE him that he would follow through this time. So he emailed me the itinerary and asked me if he should purchase a ticket for me. ??? I responded, somewhat snarkily, "I know you'll keep your promise this time."

And...he's mad again. Went rounds with me about the kids, what was I going to do about the kids? I said, I'm not putting us in this position, why do you think I should take care of what to do with the kids? Then more threats, he'll just leave me and he'll keep the kids, so I said, okay, what would you do about the kids during this trip if I was out of the picture? And he said he'd just hire someone to stay with them while he was gone.

I said, why don't you do that now, and keep me? Doesn't that seem the best solution considering the situation?

I don't blame him for being mad. Having your crazy logic pointed out has got to sting.

He bought airline tickets for all six of us, at just under $1k. Sent me the confirmation. He is pissed about it. Can't say I'm real happy, either. The other five of us have other commitments, to school. Now there's a lose-lose situation.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: kerala
It's too bad your husband won't post here. I think that could be helpful to him.


I thought he would have back when I was being totally reamed here. He peeked into the forum a couple of times. I've asked him many times to post. I agree, it is too bad, I do think it would be helpful to him.

So far he has two people who he has spoken to who believe in MB, and nobody else. For that matter, I have very few people in my life who believe in this stuff--we live in a 'stuff happens' world, where nobody has control of their lives and 'go along to get along' is the norm. It's sad.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/04/10 09:34 PM
CWMI - I know that right now you are stuck in a negative cycle. I know there isn't much to do about it to FIX it, but this is a valuable opportunity for you to demonstrate love and care.

I know, it isn't fair your husband gets to bail on love and care, but you must be loving and caring because that is what a good wife does.

You need to work to foster an atmosphere of gratitude and appreciation to ENCOURAGE him to be loving and caring. If he puts forth ANY effort and his only guarantee is that he is going to be griped at, then next time he won't bother to put forth the effort.

You're in a crummy situation, but it's time to make lemonade.

Originally Posted By: CWMI
I responded, somewhat snarkily, "I know you'll keep your promise this time."


I know this probably felt good. But think for a moment. You felt good at your husband's expense.

Yes, he probably deserves it.

But this negative cycle will NOT STOP unless SOMEONE stops it.

Sucks that it has to be you, I'm sure it feels like it is ALWAYS you, but if you aren't willing to B/D, then you have to take responsibility for the consequence of that choice.

You don't get to stoop to his level and perpetuate the negativity.

Quote:
And...he's mad again.


Of course he is. He screwed up, big time. And he's alone with his screw up. His partner has turned into his enemy.

Yes, it is his own doing.

But just as he vowed to put you before all others, YOU vowed to love and cherish him. Not love and cherish him if he is nice to you, but love and cherish him.

You antagonizing and your enmity isn't going to help this situation, in fact it will make it MORE unpleasant, and will ensure that it probably happens again. You can't control him, but you can control YOU and use that control to respectfully persuade and influence him to better behaviors.

So use this as an opportunity to demonstrate love and care, to show him you are willing to be a partner to him, even when he screws up, even when he is neglectful and abusive.

You can say "Thank you for trying to fix this, I appreciate it." and not negate the fact that you are disappointed that the situation arose.

You punishing him is just as abusive as his IB.

Quote:
Went rounds with me about the kids, what was I going to do about the kids? I said, I'm not putting us in this position, why do you think I should take care of what to do with the kids? Then more threats, he'll just leave me and he'll keep the kids, so I said, okay, what would you do about the kids during this trip if I was out of the picture? And he said he'd just hire someone to stay with them while he was gone.


Why did this fight have to occur? Why did you let this situation disintegrate to this point? Because you are being governed by your emotions: anger, betrayal, disappointment. You are letting your emotions dictate your behavior.

Quote:
I said, why don't you do that now, and keep me? Doesn't that seem the best solution considering the situation?

I don't blame him for being mad. Having your crazy logic pointed out has got to sting.


THIS is evidence of the DJs we discussed in the now shut down thread. You are disrespecting him here. You have been love busting throughout this whole situation. You've been throwing fuel onto a raging fire to make yourself feel better....

Your kids are stuck in the house.

You relinquish control of yourself and your actions when you chose to REACT to your husbands LBs with LBs of your own, and your children are the ones hurt by all this.

Crazy logic is a DJ.
Interpreting his anger to analyze the reason for it is a DJ.

Instead of DJing him, ASK him why he is angry. ASK him what you can do to help remedy the situation. TELL him what it is you are feeling and thinking, straight out, no 'what if's' 'what would you do's'.

Simply stating "I am very upset and need to see some effort put forth. This situation needs to be resolved and I need reassurance from you that you care so I would appreciate you finding a solution to this problem."

You guiding him to the answer by asking "What would you do if you had the kids? Don't you think that's a good solution?" Is condescending and disrespectful. You treated him like a child while you were the adult with the answers.

It is clear why you do this. It is an attempt to regain power after he has rendered you powerless.

But your strategy is backfiring.

He doesn't want to engage with you because it is unpleasant.

Quote:
He bought airline tickets for all six of us, at just under $1k. Sent me the confirmation. He is pissed about it. Can't say I'm real happy, either. The other five of us have other commitments, to school. Now there's a lose-lose situation.


He fixed the problem.

Unfortunately, rather than use the situation to fix the damage done to your marriage, you have allowed him and yourself permission to FURTHER damage the marriage.

You can still turn this around though. You can thank him for finding a solution. Since you abdicated having input in the decision making process can you really blame him that you are unhappy with the result? Instead of being his partner to fix it, you left him alone to fix it. Yes, it was his mess to fix - but you're his partner, his companion.

Sometimes marriage is cleaning up other people's messes, because we love them.

I'd suggest you sit down and try to find a way to be positive about this. Mini-family vacation at least!

I want you to know, I'm not trying to beat up on you. I really am not. I can imagine your pain and how much this just stinks. I really do. But I want to help you, I want to help you stop this terrible, destructive, negative cycle you have slipped into. YOU have power here CWMI, power to affect positive change.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 10:19 PM
Positive: it's not in TX, as originally planned, but in good old N'Orleans. smile

I have asked him why he is so angry at me (You keep pushing me to do things I have no control over!) and what I can do to help (Just accept the REAL WORLD, cwmi!), and have told him how I'm feeling (this leaves me feeling uncared for and unprotected, and I need your care and protection) (to which he replies that he IS caring for and protecting me and I just don't see it).

I agreed, three? Four? Five? trips ago that I would be okay with it if he took me with him. It's been that many that he has not done so, after promising each time that he would. I don't even know how many times this promise has been broken.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 10:33 PM
omg, and here's another: now he wants me to go with him to take a car to his boss's daughter's homecoming game, and at first said that he would not do it if I did not want to go, but he thought it would make a great 'date night' for us.

I said I did not think that would be a good date for me and I would prefer to do something else that did not have anything to do with his work, just had to do with us.

Now he's saying he'll just go without me since I was invited.

What. The. You know.

I'm done. I'm married to someone who is clearly married to his job, and whatever job it is, does not matter. He'll marry any job.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/04/10 11:06 PM
This sounds reasonable. Why not go with him? It meets your requirements.

Except that you have decided YOU DONT WANT TO GO.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Duped - 10/04/10 11:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
If you cannot trust your spouse not to have affairs on overnight trips, then you cannot trust them in any other way either and must keep them on a very very short, tight, painful choke chain and leash.


Thats like saying you should trust me to go drunk driving. You shouldn't trust anyone to engage in risky behavior and that is exactly what traveling without your spouse is. That is how affairs start. You SHOULDN'T trust your spouse, it is too much trust that leads to affairs. Its not a lack of trust that is the problem but a lack of BOUNDARIES.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Duped - 10/04/10 11:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr Willard Harley
"One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve."
here
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/04/10 11:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
This sounds reasonable. Why not go with him? It meets your requirements.

Except that you have decided YOU DONT WANT TO GO.


Our last 'date night'--last Thursday--was spent babysitting a car for the business. I wouldn't be so opposed if was less often and had more 'just us' in between. I do not want to set up a lifestyle where 'our time' is spent on HIS JOB. I don't think that is unreasonable, to want weeks--or months--instead of days between 'events' for his job.

I think to ask your spouse to spend their recreational time with you doing extra stuff for work, is unreasonable. Occasionally, sure, I asked for that, I do want to be included in his work and seen as an asset. I do NOT want it to dictate our lives.

I'm blown away right now with how his work has consumed our lives for the past few days. I didn't think going last week with him was a big deal until all this other was thrown at me, and that is because I did trust him to not allow this to happen again. He thinks it is wholly better because 99% of the time, I'm invited to be consumed by his job as well.

I don't want to be consumed by his job. I want to live our lives together, doing things we both like. So now I'm really pushing it, eh? I don't want him to do events that I'm not invited to, but I also do not want him doing three outside events in ten days, either--I did NOT sign up for that. I did not agree to have my life dictated by his job. I agreed to the working hours, quarterly events, and no travel.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:06 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa

However, the thing I find MOST troubling about this, is his attitude towards MB that has been revealed. He felt bullied into POJAing....think about that for a sec. He felt manipulated at the sheer FACT that he had to consider his wife's needs.

The cruelty isn't manifested in CWMIs behavior here, not by a long shot.


Exactly.

Daily dish: he's decided to go back to the failed attempt before of taking me with him if he must go out of town overnight. Yeah, he's not getting out of the trip. How's that for a heck no he didn't discuss this during the interview?

So he said that, that if he ended up having to go, he would certainly take me with him and that he needed me to BELIEVE him that he would follow through this time. So he emailed me the itinerary and asked me if he should purchase a ticket for me. ??? I responded, somewhat snarkily, "I know you'll keep your promise this time."

And...he's mad again. Went rounds with me about the kids, what was I going to do about the kids? I said, I'm not putting us in this position, why do you think I should take care of what to do with the kids? Then more threats, he'll just leave me and he'll keep the kids, so I said, okay, what would you do about the kids during this trip if I was out of the picture? And he said he'd just hire someone to stay with them while he was gone.

I said, why don't you do that now, and keep me? Doesn't that seem the best solution considering the situation?

I don't blame him for being mad. Having your crazy logic pointed out has got to sting.

He bought airline tickets for all six of us, at just under $1k. Sent me the confirmation. He is pissed about it. Can't say I'm real happy, either. The other five of us have other commitments, to school. Now there's a lose-lose situation.



oh my goodness
uugghhh

This is such passive aggressive behavior on his part and nobody here at MB should even consider thinking that this is a legitimate solution to the problem the husband has gotten himself into.

5 people, 4 of them minor children, flying out to attend an event that CWMI's husband told her wouldn't be a part of his new job's position

He honestly believes that it is ok for his children to miss school for this.....he should know better. I'm sure he does know better, seeing that he's been able to become one of his company's top employees in a short period of time. he's no dummy.

I'm so sorry to read this CWMI.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:27 AM
RMJ, I don't know that he knows better. We went to visit his father last month when H had his first three-day weekend in our whole life together, and I had to remind him that the rest of us had school on Friday...he wanted to leave Thursday night.

I don't think he cares enough to consider any of us. He did agree to leave Friday for that trip, after I pointed it out, but why should a grown man have to be reminded that his kids are in school during the week? Never mind his wife...
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:33 AM
cwmi, I wish you guys peace and joy together as you look for the solutions you are both enthusiastic about as a team. You two have a lot of great momentum together.
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:36 AM
Huh??
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:39 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

I don't want to be consumed by his job. I want to live our lives together, doing things we both like. So now I'm really pushing it, eh? I don't want him to do events that I'm not invited to, but I also do not want him doing three outside events in ten days, either--I did NOT sign up for that. I did not agree to have my life dictated by his job. I agreed to the working hours, quarterly events, and no travel.


ok, you didn't agree to this. I hope I'm following your story correctly. You told Mr. CWMI what was acceptable to you when it came to employment. Before taking the job, he told you that this new position stays within the parameters that you both POJA'd. Four mos later, you're blindsided by Mr. CWMI when he tells you that parties, events, and overnight travel are now part of his job description? Mr. CWMI basically tells you to lump it or D? And now you feel like you're not certain how to proceed?


hmmmm, did you tell Mr CWMI what the consequences would be if he lied about what the job involved? (I assume that you didn't discuss any consequences because you naturally believed there was O and H POJA.)

I can't see any other way you could proceed short of Plan B. Because he knew what the boundaries were. He POJA'd these with you before accepting that job. The only thing that can be done is for him to tell his boss that he isn't available to do the events, parties, travel, etc. He could say to the boss to put those responsibilities on one of the other "top" employees who is willing to do it.

But he won't and that is your dilemma. If you re-negotiate at this point, or even if you are "nice" and let him go, then he will see your wants, needs, agreements, etc as something that can always be re-negotiated. Your boundaries won't be respected. In fact, he will get angry when you don't reneg. on your boundaries. And this is what's happening with his job.


In the past,I think you have made so many concessions where your wants, needs, boundaries are concerned that he honestly believes that he knows what you *need* more than you do. Not only does he know what you truly need, but he knows best on how that need should be met.

Like I've said before, you've got to say what you mean and follow through with the consequences you say will happen.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:44 AM
Quote:
Huh??


Sorry, I'd typed that earlier this evening, under an earlier post, and came back to the computer and hit post. I left it as is, because in the big scheme of things, there has also been a lot of good, too. I mean, what can I say? Any solutions I suggest are never even close, and don't prompt cwmi to talk about other solutions instead. So I can send them some good wishes, because regardless of the day to day circumstances, I still wish them happy, joyous lives. I would love it if that was together, but we do what we can.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:56 AM
I don't see any way to go except B, either.

Dam.
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:57 AM
Yes, that makes sense. Sorry, NED. That was actually very sweet.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/05/10 03:12 AM
cwmi, if you go plan B, from personal experience, I can tell you you'll know in your heart that you two have given the kids some wonderful happy memories of your life with their dad together this last year. I don't think a moment of your effort as a team was wasted, whatever the outcome.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/05/10 03:16 AM
cwmi, before you go Plan B, have you spoken to your pastor at church? That's a regret that I have, maybe they would have said something we needed to hear when we needed to hear it. Who knows.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 10/05/10 11:44 AM
Prisca and I have seen a lot of downturns this year, and every one of them has felt like rock bottom or worse. What I've found is that when something goes wrong we tend to go back to old habits, which include disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, independent behavior, and all the other things we've been doing to each other for six years.

It just blows my mind that your husband would start talking divorce over this. But then I remember that that is probably one of his old habits: trying to get his way in a conflict by threatening divorce (selfish demand), suggesting that you are overreacting and that the situation is not bad enough to warrant divorce and therefore not bad enough for you to be this upset about (disrespectful judgment). He hasn't had enough time yet to build the habits that will prevent him from using these strategies and cause him to try more loving, thoughtful, and productive approaches to conflict. I'm still working on it myself and have been working on it all year!

And we see your old habits returning as well; Vibrissa pointed out several of your disrespectful judgments, for example.

All of these things contribute to making what could have been a momentary conflict into the end of the world for you, your husband, your marriage, and your kids.

For the longest time it seemed whenever we had a downturn, Prisca was ready to bail on Marriage Builders. After all, she was seeing me love bust, and to her that meant that Marriage Builders hadn't worked. The truth was I had failed to build the new habits I was supposed to build; nothing about Marriage Builders had failed. But she didn't know that, and me trying to educate her about it was just a love buster. I had to show her continued improvement before she was really ready to believe and keep trying to stay on the plan all the time.

Unfortunately when Prisca was ready to pitch Marriage Builders, to me that meant she was giving up on me entirely, which hurt like hell. And my first instinctive response to that was to love bust. You can guess how much that helped the situation.

We're still working our way through the early part of the Love Busters course, but you wouldn't believe how much better things are now, with the abusive love busters mostly on their way out the door. When you don't have these options available to you, you tend to pick other options, and those other options tend to resolve conflicts more quickly, with less pain. Even conflicts that before would have seemed unresolvable. And if nothing else, we escape from the conflicts without having flamed each other to death.

I haven't updated my thread in a long time. What have I been doing since that time? Learning to hold myself to the rule that I will not selfish demand, disrespectfully judge, or angry outburst, no matter what Prisca does or says. I'm not there yet (she just handed me my angry outbursts worksheet for the week, and I'm grateful to see what is on it so I can refine my strategy), but she will tell you that it is much better. At the beginning of the year I would say we were having one fight a week. Not any more, thank God.

There really is a light at the end of the tunnel that you guys can head to to learn to handle conflicts, including this one, in a way that is thoughtful to you both. Of COURSE you can't go there by yourself, and of COURSE he has royally screwed up here and been completely thoughtless. The question is, would you guys like to handle it together and keep working toward a situation that will please you both?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/05/10 01:19 PM
cwmi, I hope y'all have kissed and made up now, but I'm wondering, if part of the problem is that you see your H as, I'm not sure the right word, but like flawed, and he already has trouble connecting with you, having empathy for you, because it gets in his way already, and then this dynamic just feeds that?

Like some folks do take off a day of school at your kids' ages, and college folks usually have Fridays with no class, just homework, and they do usually travel and make up their work or turn it in early and stuff. Y'all should have POJAd it, I know, but maybe he's not like a total imbecile about the trip?

And I'm not surprised your H doesn't post here, it could be one of 100 reasons. But he knows if he comes here, if you're harsh and resilient about calling him to the mat, well we'll multiply that by 100. Why would he sign up for that, when if he's just willing to wait it out, he still sees Plan C as the most likely outcome? It is easy for him to take the perspective that he has nothing to lose in his current actions, and everything to gain, throwing you back off balance. You've lived that way at least 10 years now, would two years here convince him the situation has changed? Apparently it hasn't.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/05/10 01:25 PM
I don't have a lot of comments because I'm not quite sure what to say. I see a marriage where both people are on edge around each other. Both of y'all have a vision of marriage and parts of it completely clash and neither want to meet each other half way. You think he's unreasonable with certain things and he thinks the same about you.

CWMI, is there a reason why you could not have made arrangements for the kids. He agreed to take you, you did not want the kids missing school, he is the breadwinner in the family, it seems like you could have spent some time making arrangements with the kids.


And I don't know why he would post on here either. Depending on the thread posted, either he gets railed or CWMI gets railed. In this thread he's been called disrespectful and selfish and etc. Why would he come here?
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 10/05/10 02:37 PM
CWMI-
I'm sorry you are going through this right now. I was "duped" as well, and I understand it's not a fun thing to go through.

Have you had a chance to make an appointment with Steve yet? To help you with your plan, whatever it may be?

I just get concerned, with all the emotional reacting that's going on right now. Emotionally reacting doesn't solve anything. It just escalates the situation, making it worse.

So, I'm wondering if there's anything you can do to call a time out, for the time being to catch your breath, while you get your plan together?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/05/10 05:14 PM
Everyone must decide for themselves how to prioritize aspects of their life. CWMI must decide how much to emphasize her marriage. As must Mr. CWMI. We would hope that both of them prioritize their marriage. But we cannot be certain that Mr. CWMI will do so.

Clearly, if CWMI wants a marriage in which she is romantically in love with her husband, she will need to set and enforce boudaries regarding her husband's career. That will likely trigger conflict with him. If she wants romantic love, she will have to work through that conflict. Which may require her to leave and find a new partner who shares her willingness to adopt romantic love as a highest order goal.

As someone who does not have romantic love in his life, and who fears separation / divorce, I sympathize with CWMI. Her alternatives are not pleasant. I hope she has the courage to hold to her convictions. And I hope that eventually she finds happiness; not merely peace. Good luck.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/05/10 09:21 PM
I'm reading, just wanted ya'll to know that.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 10/06/10 05:45 PM
We're pulling for you, CWMI.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 06:10 PM
I'm glad, cause all I'm pulling is my hair out. smile
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/06/10 06:37 PM
CWMI you really are in a tough situation. I hope you find your way out somehow.

I know what you want, ideally - is your husband to act like a HUSBAND and be a real partner to you. Lacking that - what is the next best thing? Is this it? This life you're leading right now?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 07:07 PM
No. Not at all. I just read an assignment for dd7, where she had to correct the GRAMMAR in this sentence:

It's ben siad, "Half a loaf is better than none." It means that sometimes people cannot have it all, so they must learn to be happy with less than everything. It is nicer too have a littel something, than nothing at all.

That is what school is teaching my 7yo daughter. My problems are minute compared to this crapola. SETTLE. OR HAVE NOTHING. Grrr...
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/06/10 07:11 PM
puke
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 07:16 PM
You ever feel like you're against the entire world? I'm having one of those days...
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 07:18 PM
Except you, V and the MB crew...felt the need to clarify that. smile
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/06/10 07:19 PM
Lol

Just gotta make it through today CWMI - one day at a time.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 07:32 PM
I gotta make it through tomorrow, too, if God grants me the pleasure. smile
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/06/10 08:10 PM
Hey, CWMI, have you sat down with your husband and asked him to spend about a page writing out exactly how he views a marriage should be? As in the roles of man vs woman and what is acceptable and what is not?

I just have this feeling that both of you have this 50/50 view of marriage where for about half the ideals you share the other half y'all are polar opposite. It sounds like he does not buy into part of what you believe and then the reverse is true for you also. However, neither of you feel you are in the wrong so y'all have this stand still where you're upset with having to settle and I have a feeling that he feels like he has to settle also.

I also have the feeling that he feels like he's ripping his hair out also. Of course, I'm not inside your husbands head but I very much doubt that he wants to be divorced. He just might feel your expectations of marriage are too much for him. He might even feel overwhelmed.

I think it might behoove you to ask him to write down exactly what's in his head.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 08:23 PM
I believe in marriage as laid out by MB, with all the EPs and care and protection and POJA and RH and, well, all of it.

You are correct, I do not buy into his view that we must live at the whim of external forces and just 'deal with it'.

kt, you have argued with me about the benefits of GNO and how you see no problem with your wife going out on a party bus for a night of drinking with her co-workers, so I do not put much credibility into your advice re: MB in general, nor my sitch in particular.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/06/10 09:56 PM
I think one of the hardest differences to overcome is if one spouse is dead set on achieveing all their life goals and the other feels it is OK if they never quite "get there". Very hard for a Type A person to accept that their spouse is not going to push hard all day every day to work toward mutual goals.

In the "old fashioned" marriage with typical male and female ENs, this will be even worse if the wife is the Type A person. That is the problem in my marriage. And I think it may be a problem for CWMI as well.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/06/10 11:35 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

kt, you have argued with me about the benefits of GNO and how you see no problem with your wife going out on a party bus for a night of drinking with her co-workers, so I do not put much credibility into your advice re: MB in general, nor my sitch in particular.


There was 2 posts with a total of 3 sentences about this. You said you disagreed with it. I'd hardly call that an argument.

I've read the same books, the same articles, interacted with teh same knowledgable posters. I have the same tools and knowledge that you do. The difference is I'm not having near the issues in my marriage that you are.

But that's fine. I'll stop posting to you then.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/06/10 11:49 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
The difference is I'm not having near the issues in my marriage that you are.


Ouch. To look over your last few posts to me, it sounds like you are suggesting that I lower my expectations in order to keep my marriage. Is that what you are saying?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/07/10 12:16 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Ouch. To look over your last few posts to me, it sounds like you are suggesting that I lower my expectations in order to keep my marriage. Is that what you are saying?


Absolutely not. Lowering expectations leads to unhappiness and resentment.

I know you want a happy marriage. And I can't imagine him not wanting a happy marriage either. But it seems there's a communication breakdown. You have put the MB program into place. And he seems enthusiastic about it. Then he suddenly isn't. So my question is exactly what does he see how a marriage should look and how does it differ from your vision of what a marriage should look like. This would open the way for communication.

It seems everything is at a deadlock. At this rate nothing positive will come out...only frustration. And I can't imagine that's good for either of you or your kiddos.

I'm sorry if my comment was out of line and hurtful. I was pretty put off in the way you would dismiss me so easily. And I know you and i don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. But I do want you to have a good marriage.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/07/10 12:56 PM
I'm sorry, too, kt, for dismissing you so broadly. I'm a bit touchy to any suggestion that I am at fault here. I feel like I have done everything I need to, above and beyond what I needed to do, and having all this falling around me is blowing a few connections in my brain...I simply cannot fathom it.

He told everyone else the same thing he told me: this job had NO TRAVEL and no events that I was not invited to attend. He's acting like he has no idea where I came up with that! Which is the bigger DJ: thinking that he is intentionally gaslighting me in order to keep me off-balance and drive me insane, or that he is truly that self-deluded to believe that he never said it to me or the several people I've spoken to whom he also said the same thing?

What he thinks a marriage should be depends on what he wants in the moment. For the last several months, he was all-in with a MB marriage--making decisions together, considering each other, spending lots of time together, connecting emotionally, being O&H (or so I thought...). He wants that until it interferes with something else. Then he wants a marriage where it is okay for one spouse to disregard the feelings of the other and it is the job of the disregarded spouse to be understanding and forgiving. He has said that: he believes the problem here is that I am not understanding and forgiving, and that I am ridiculous for expecting him to consider me when it comes to his job. What??? It's like he doesn't even remember WHY he changed jobs to begin with.

You know how he is about support for his job. I asked him the other day, "If you had to choose between being the best employee at your job, or being the best husband and father at home, which would you choose?" He said husband and father, of course! I told him that I would like it if he kept that in mind when making his decisions.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 10/07/10 01:03 PM
this job had NO TRAVEL and no events that I was not invited to attend.

As I understand it, the trip he is scheduled for includes you and the kids right?

The party he invited YOU TO, right?

Sounds like travel and parties DO INCLUDE the family so why do you keep saying they do not include the family? What is the problem?.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/07/10 01:33 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I'm sorry, too, kt, for dismissing you so broadly. I'm a bit touchy to any suggestion that I am at fault here. I feel like I have done everything I need to, above and beyond what I needed to do, and having all this falling around me is blowing a few connections in my brain...I simply cannot fathom it.


CWMI you just sound tapped out. You sound exhausted. I don't think this situation is your fault, at all! However, there is always room for us to improve. That was the direction my earlier post to you was trying to go.

You still have to work to be a good wife. However after a point it is just too much. It's hard to go into Giver mode when our Taker is screaming to protect us.

I was listening to past radio show segments yesterday and Dr. Harley was discussing Plan A/ Plan B in NON-affair situations. I think this may be appropriate for you if you don't think you can muster up a Giver anymore. I KNOW you don't want to go Plan B, but your continued presence in this marriage only teaches your husband that he can continue to disregard you without consequence - well you get peeved at him but he can deal with that.

Quote:
He told everyone else the same thing he told me: this job had NO TRAVEL and no events that I was not invited to attend. He's acting like he has no idea where I came up with that! Which is the bigger DJ: thinking that he is intentionally gaslighting me in order to keep me off-balance and drive me insane, or that he is truly that self-deluded to believe that he never said it to me or the several people I've spoken to whom he also said the same thing?


Ideally it isn't a choice between the lesser of two DJs, but NO DJs. You can't say for sure why he is doing what he is doing all you can say is he told you one thing in the past, it has turned out to be a lie and that hurts you and you don't like it.

CWMI I know you and your husband have counseled with the Harleys before. Would you consider one session JUST FOR YOU where you lay out where you are right now and see if you can get some direction on where you should go from here?

You seem at wit's end. Perhaps Steve (you counseled with Steve right?) can help guide and focus you towards your goal. Especially as he has had the benefit of actually talking with your husband.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/07/10 01:44 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
And I can't imagine him not wanting a happy marriage either.


Huge DJ. Of the sneakiest kind. Thinking well of someone. Assuming they have "good" intentions.
I want a happy marriage. Like I want to win the lottery. As in: it would be nice if it happens. But I can easily imagine Mr. CWMI not wanting it enough to do the required work. Not enough to be O&H or to ues POJA. Not when it interferes with IB.

Or maybe he simply is not interested in working as hard as CWMI wants him to work. Maybe he wants to be lazy. Maybe he is willing to accept that some of his ENs will never be met. And he expects CWMI to accept that some of her needs will never be met. That doesn't make him a "bad" person. But it makes him incompatible with CWMI, who seems dead set on constantly working toward meeting her ENS, and who expects her husband to work just as hard toward that goal. There are plenty of people in this world who are not motivated to "be all they can be". Which is OK. Unless they are married to someone who expects them to try harder. THAT is a difference that is very hard to POJA.

I agree that Mr. CWMI would prefer a happy marriage to an unhappy one. But that does not imply that he is willing to pay the price to get there. Which puts CWMI in a very unpleasant situation.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/07/10 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
And I can't imagine him not wanting a happy marriage either.


Huge DJ. Of the sneakiest kind. Thinking well of someone. Assuming they have "good" intentions.


True.

Man those DJs...they're everywhere. Once you get into the habit of spotting them it's like the world is full of them. I've discovered in my own life that about 90% of the time that I'm upset with my DH - there's a DJ on my part behind it. I get rid of the DJ and the upset feelings disappear. Stinkin' DJs!!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Duped - 10/07/10 01:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
this job had NO TRAVEL and no events that I was not invited to attend.

As I understand it, the trip he is scheduled for includes you and the kids right?

The party he invited YOU TO, right?

Sounds like travel and parties DO INCLUDE the family so why do you keep saying they do not include the family? What is the problem?.


Besides the betrayals and lies.... She should just be happy, right?

Bubbles, why are you making it your cause to smack CWMI down at every turn? Makes no sense to me! Sheesh
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/07/10 02:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa


CWMI I know you and your husband have counseled with the Harleys before. Would you consider one session JUST FOR YOU where you lay out where you are right now and see if you can get some direction on where you should go from here?

You seem at wit's end. Perhaps Steve (you counseled with Steve right?) can help guide and focus you towards your goal. Especially as he has had the benefit of actually talking with your husband.


I believe I am at the point where there is nothing I can do but B/D without my H's active participation. I don't feel like I need coaching to know how to do those, I'm pretty well-versed as it is. I just need to let my brass pair drop again, and do it.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/07/10 02:35 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I just need to let my brass pair drop again, and do it.

rotflmao

You can do it, hon.

I would, however, reconsider leaving your husband with custody of the children. I know WHY you want to do that, but if he doesn't want to be 'weighed down' by a family, I can't imagine him being a good father to your kids by himself.

I know - it isn't fair he gets to make a mess and then walk away from responsibility but you have to think about what is best for your kids. They aren't bargaining tools, and you aren't a judge dispensing justice on your husband from the bench.

You are a mother and a wife who has been put through the wringer.

I hope you would consider a reasonable custody split regarding the children. Perhaps discussion with a lawyer would be a good idea, if you consider going the legal separation route.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 10/07/10 04:12 PM
CMWI-

I second visiting a lawyer (or two) if you haven't already, to figure out the best way to deal with custody.

In my state, for example, physical and the other part of custody is granted 50% to each parent as the norm.

Also, in my state, there's no ability to legally separate.

And, in my state, the parent that leaves the martial home is considered to have abandoned the family, which obviously isn't a positive thing.

I also hope that you get a chance to really work through your finances before you implement Plan B. I'd just hate to see you and your kids suffer with basic needs being met.
Posted By: Gerberdaisies Re: Duped - 10/07/10 05:13 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I believe in marriage as laid out by MB, with all the EPs and care and protection and POJA and RH and, well, all of it.

You are correct, I do not buy into his view that we must live at the whim of external forces and just 'deal with it'.

kt, you have argued with me about the benefits of GNO and how you see no problem with your wife going out on a party bus for a night of drinking with her co-workers, so I do not put much credibility into your advice re: MB in general, nor my sitch in particular.


Good for you! If you read my history at the end of my post, you will see that I was duped by xwh with a coworker. It hurt like hell, left me with trust issues regarding men, and lowered my self esteem. Please stick to you guns on this one. GB
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/07/10 07:22 PM
Well, you all know how WS's get angry when BS's expose?

It's no different for LS (lying spouses). Turns out one of my 'pressurizers' I called has, erm, 'spread the word' and one of my H's old bosses showed up at his new place of business today to apparently sniff around. H is not pleased. Feels he is 'getting it from all sides!' Said I'm making his life very difficult and affecting his reputation! See, he lied to them, too, told them that he was quitting there because he'd found a new job that had no travel or spouse-excluding events. Made a pretty big deal about it, too.

I told him I was sorry that his life was more difficult. That I had hoped that the changes we made would make it easier and more fulfilling. Then I asked him if he would like chicken and broccoli alfredo for dinner.

IRC, Vibrissa, it would actually work out better for me financially if I kept the kids. My state has no legal separation, but you can file a separation agreement anyway, it's more like a legal contract than anything having to do with civil marriage. The lawyer draws it up and it is legally binding, enforceable only through breach of contract suit, though.

I think I would prefer to file D, and get temporary orders for custody and support and residency that are enforceable as violations of a court order. I like teeth and shiny brass things. smile As fun as it sounds to ride off into the sunset unencumbered and leaving him with this mess, ya'll are right.

He texted me an ILU after our conversation earlier. I just get so weary of the same-old same-old. I wish I had a solution that worked for both of us, but you know what they say, wish in one hand and poo in the other and see which one fills up the fastest? I've got fistfuls of BOTH, dagnabit.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/07/10 07:31 PM
CWMI at the end of the day he will have to face the consequences of his actions.

Quote:
See, he lied to them, too, told them that he was quitting there because he'd found a new job that had no travel or spouse-excluding events. Made a pretty big deal about it, too.


Further proof that he KNEW what the requirements for the new job were. I could understand his being upset if the job reversed a previous promise for no travel, etc., but he got no promise from them, just assumptions and wishful thinking.

His deceitful behavior (and I believed he deceived himself here too) has completely eroded your love for him. It has affected his career standing. These are the consequences of HIS decisions.

You can't protect a person from the consequences of their mistakes. It was his job to keep your love for him intact. He knew it was tenuous at best, he knew what he had to do to keep it as you were very clear and you now have outside confirmation of that from his old boss. He decided to do a shoddy job and now the consequences are here.

He loves you enough to want you around, but not enough to try to keep you happy while you're there. He loves you because you make his life better in some way, but that love doesn't inspire him to make your life better. That's why his mantra is for you to 'just deal' with everything. It seems his ideal world has you meeting his needs, leaving him free to meet your needs as they are convenient or when then can be bent around his true values: himself, his image, and his job. There's a word for that: Freeloader.

He needs to face the consequences of the Love Bank balance he has overdrawn in your account. You can't keep giving him loans. He never repays.
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Duped - 10/07/10 08:46 PM
I think you should do some plan "C"...but not the way he wants it. You are not being clear on your boundaries to him.
First of all I agree that he should have investigated more about this job. However, right now you are in the situation you are in.

He may be thinking that his boss' daughters homecoming game is a "work event" which he is inviting you to. He is trying to make the best of it by calling it a "date night". But you are turning him down. So you say you want to attend work events but then are saying no I don't.

He bought tickets for you to fly out with him on his trip. You said either no trips or you would be with him. He is making sure you are with him. But now it is not so important for you to be with him because it is a pain in the butt for you. So you want him to upset his professional life but you won't go on a trip with him?

I think you should consider putting your money where your mouth is and go with him in these situations to show how important this really is to you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/07/10 09:19 PM
But, but...Vibrissa, he wouldn't have to face consequences of his actions and decisions if I didn't tell people what he did! So it's MY fault! puke
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 10/07/10 09:32 PM
I'm not really sure that exposure is a good strategy against other offenses besides unfaithfulness. I often threatened to drag Prisca's failings before her parents or others whom I felt could pressure her to do things differently, and I have become convinced that doing so was one of the most hurtful things I could have done to her. It was an angry outburst on my part, punishing her for things she had done. It was a disrespectful judgment on my part, trying to educate her into the "right" way to do things (Marriage Builders). And it was a selfish demand: threatening punishment if I didn't get my way. It was all the abusive love busters rolled into one.

You read here long enough, you see what a powerful weapon exposure is, and if things aren't going well sometimes you wish you could use that weapon, too. But an affair is a more serious and more hurtful thing than anything I have ever experienced.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/07/10 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: wannabophim
I think you should do some plan "C"...but not the way he wants it. You are not being clear on your boundaries to him.
First of all I agree that he should have investigated more about this job. However, right now you are in the situation you are in.


I am in the situation I am in right now because we were BOTH clear my boundaries but somebody was being deceptive and crossed them. We had big issues about him spending off-time on work when it was not required of him. Homecoming is not required of him. He is not going. Well, as of right now he is not going, but there's always tomorrow, and he very well may change his mind several times between now and then.

Do you recognize any difference between required events and brown-nosing non-required events? The agreement was that if he was REQUIRED to attend any work events, I would be able to accompany him. Not that I would willingly follow him around once a week to non-essential semi-work stuff. Achieving a better balance between home and work was a major factor in the decision to switch jobs. He told SH that he could not make plans with me because of his job, and SH told him that if he was going to blame the job, he needed to get a new one that didn't require so much of his attention.

Going with him on trips is an old agreement (which never worked anyway), and was voided when the new agreement was made that he would take this job that required NO TRIPS.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/07/10 09:50 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
I'm not really sure that exposure is a good strategy against other offenses besides unfaithfulness. I often threatened to drag Prisca's failings before her parents or others whom I felt could pressure her to do things differently, and I have become convinced that doing so was one of the most hurtful things I could have done to her. It was an angry outburst on my part, punishing her for things she had done. It was a disrespectful judgment on my part, trying to educate her into the "right" way to do things (Marriage Builders). And it was a selfish demand: threatening punishment if I didn't get my way. It was all the abusive love busters rolled into one.

You read here long enough, you see what a powerful weapon exposure is, and if things aren't going well sometimes you wish you could use that weapon, too. But an affair is a more serious and more hurtful thing than anything I have ever experienced.


If you recall, I was the one being threatened with punishment if he didn't get his way. I asked a couple of close people to please speak to him about NOT destroying his family. At the time, he was refusing to speak to me at all.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Duped - 10/07/10 09:56 PM
Him threatening punishment doesn't mean you are incapable of it as well.

I figured you griped about the situation to someone and the grapevine did it's work.

The more and more I think about it Plan B is in order for you CWMI. I don't think you are capable (not from lack of ability, but from just trying for so long) of reigning in your Taker anymore.

Your Love Bank is deeply in the red.

Could you have done better? Probably.

Is there stuff on your side of the street you need to work on? I think so and I think you would agree with me.

You commit LBs, you could probably do better at meeting ENs. You're not getting a free pass on that, but I think it likely that you have done all you can do and suffered all you can suffer.

But you don't have to be PERFECT in order to be loved, you have to be trying. I don't think you can try anymore. I think you're tapped out.

Do you think it POSSIBLE you could muster up the energy for one last go - round? To take your family on this trip that has landed in your lap and try to make the best of it. Try to be loving and pleasant. Drop the attitude and eliminate the DJs for a couple of days? One last try to reconnect with your husband. Give him one last chance to meet your needs?
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Duped - 10/08/10 12:30 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Do you recognize any difference between required events and brown-nosing non-required events?


I do. Where I worked before, there were frequent happy hours at a nearby Irish pub that frequently went until 9 or 10 at night. I mean just about every night of the week. I was a defense contractor and the government employees would hold court network, and everyone was encouraged to kiss ass build relationships with our customers, so they would like us and give us more money and better assignments.

I almost never went, partly because my tiny engineer brain thinks that the job I do at work should speak for itself, and that I shouldn't have to brown nose to get ahead. I also disliked many of the government employees on a personal level, and the idea of standing around drinking with people I don't even like in the first place was foreign to me. Finally, my wife was a SAHM (still is) and looked forward to me coming home for dinner (still does).

My wife and I POJA'd that I'd go to two happy hours a month, and come home in time to help put the kids to bed (7 or so).

That said, I recognize that a certain amount of networking is required in many jobs, some fields more than others. I also recognize (in my field at least) that those who network better and build relationships do better than those who are technically superior. It's something I'm struggling with professionally, especially now as a project lead.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/08/10 06:03 PM
lol @ bit. I wholly agree with you that schmoozers a-kissers family-neglecters employees who take advantage of opportunities to network get farther faster in business than people who value relationships over money, success and recognition those who don't. You will get no argument from me on that point.

What I will argue is: people who value money, possessions, material success, and the admiration and recognition of a bunch of suits over the well-being and admiration of their own spouses and children have no business having spouses and children. I've been beaten up about this before on this board, but my argument stands: I did not marry a job or a paycheck. I married a man.

We had a pretty productive conversation last night, and I got answers to some of KT's questions. It was like pulling teeth to get it started, but it ended well. The tough part was getting him engaged, and that's so very frustrating to me. During the course of the convo he mentioned how connected to me he'd felt over the last several months after not feeling that 'for a long time' and how much he loved the feeling of connection.

Well, this is how it started: we'd just put the little ones down to bed and came out to the living room. I sat on the sofa, he sat in the chair and picked up the remote. I asked him if he would come sit by me, that I needed some physical affection from him. He said, "I gave you that this morning." I said I wasn't talking about sex, but physical closeness, he'd been away all day and things are tense and I would like to be able to rest into his body. He sighed, got up, put the remote down, and sat next to me, said, "Is this what you want?" I said yes, this is perfect, then I laid back against one armrest and put my legs up and patted for him to put his legs up, too, and just started chatting, and we stayed that way for a good hour.

And I'm thinking, THIS is how you 'feel connected', you REACH for it, you OPEN yourself to bids for connection...nobody is going to 'feel connected' if they close off connection over a fit of self-righteousness.

So, to KT's q about what marriage is to him, I got that kind of tangentially, it would take pages and pages to get to where we were in the conversation, but the short version is: he felt attacked and said that he could make a list of a 100 pages of everything I've ever done wrong, so I told him that I would love to see that list but if he was in the mood to make a list right now, I'd really like to see a list of what he thinks marriage is made of, a list of what marriage means to him.

He didn't write it down, I didn't either, but he said what I expected him to say given the MB education. Spending time together, growing a life together, being O&H, being BFFs, taking care of each other...the part that sparked the most interesting conversation (to me) was when he said TEAMWORK.

I asked him what he meant by teamwork. Did he mean working together toward a shared goal? Yes. What did he see as being our shared goal? What did he think he was doing toward working for it, what did he see me doing, where did he see me failing, where did he see himself?

My failings are not being happy about the new deal, changing my support of the new job, and asking others for help in what should be our personal problem.

His failings were not being O&H, but he doesn't feel that is a failing anymore since he told me about the event and trip as soon as he knew.

I love the guy, loved talking with him last night even though it was difficult to get started. I can't do anything about how he sees himself as not responsible for not feeling connected to me, nor how he feels not responsible for my diminished support and trust.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 10/11/10 07:07 PM
Quote:
THIS is how you 'feel connected', you REACH for it, you OPEN yourself to bids for connection...nobody is going to 'feel connected' if they close off connection over a fit of self-righteousness


That's right. And YOU did it, cwmi. You made that moment of connection, by asking for it gently and sweetly.

I'm not surprised he eventually felt comfortable talking with you.

You made it safe and pleasant for him so you could both move into harder topics.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Duped - 10/11/10 11:52 PM
Hi CWWI,

Kudos for asking him what he meant by teamwork. Some of the biggest arguments that I've had with my husband are because of misunderstandings about what words mean. When I say "I'm thinking about cleaning out the garage this weekend", that means I'll most likely do it unless something big comes up. Otherwise I wouldn't mention it.

To dh thinking about it means just that, thinking. It will rarely get to the point of action. However, lots of times when he does things he doesn't talk about it first. Action man --- gotta love it!
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Duped - 10/12/10 01:34 AM
CWMI:

What if your husband was right?

What if your husband DID have assurances that there would be no travel, or Non-spouses times? He didn't get it in writing, but he seems to have gotten some assurances.

Then his old employer shows up after being told that "the new job doesn't have travel or "Non-spouse" time. Evidence that you were not the only one he told that the new job was different.

How about your husband is so good at what he does, that even after four months, he has favorably impressed his new employer that he is moving UP in the organization and more travel and events are required?

Can you not see that he may be in the right here?

He tried to get new job that didn't require these things, and seems to have succeeded. And then things changed.

I understand that you feel whip-sawed, or that you didn't marry a JOB. My BW always felt that I liked my job more than my home life. I certainly thought that work was better. I got approval, admiration, and happy thoughts from work. I got disapproval, and disagreement at home.

My BW just wanted me to treat her and my family with more concern, and care, That meant that I described accruately my schedule for the week with her, so that she knew when I planned to work late, or had to be out of the office, and that I would call and let her know that I was leaving the office, or the plans had changed if something came up. That my concern was WITH HER, and considered HER first before I agreed to take a trip, or work late, or didn't come home on time.

This seems to be at the root of your issues. He agrees to do things at the office or for the office, then comes home and informs you of the decision.

And your evening last night seems so much farther than this:

Originally Posted By: CWMI
I responded, somewhat snarkily, "I know you'll keep your promise this time."


So your going in the right direction. He may not be the perfect husband, but he can certainly be trained. It won't happen over night. When you changed your approach, his manner changed. ANd that seemed to work. The "connection" occurred. And that doesn't mean that it is always going to "connect" but you can build on that.

(((CWMI)))

LG
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/12/10 02:39 AM
Originally Posted By: lousygolfer
He may not be the perfect husband, but he can certainly be trained. It won't happen over night.
LG


This really struck me. And maybe it's just me. But the way this is worded sounds absolutely horrible.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 10/12/10 04:30 AM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Originally Posted By: lousygolfer
He may not be the perfect husband, but he can certainly be trained. It won't happen over night.
LG


This really struck me. And maybe it's just me. But the way this is worded sounds absolutely horrible.


Unless, like me, you are one of those husbands who sincerely hopes to prove trainable. smile

I think it was supposed to be a humorous way of saying that being a good husband is learned behavior. That's a fundamental revelation for many folks.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/12/10 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: markos


This really struck me. And maybe it's just me. But the way this is worded sounds absolutely horrible.


Unless, like me, you are one of those husbands who sincerely hopes to prove trainable. smile

I think it was supposed to be a humorous way of saying that being a good husband is learned behavior. That's a fundamental revelation for many folks.
[/quote]
I suppose it's semantics. But saying a husband can bbe trained reminds me of how we talk about animals, and to some extent, children. I completely realize that becoming a good spouse takes some rewiring of selfish behaviors. And this goes for husbands and wives.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Duped - 10/12/10 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower

I suppose it's semantics. But saying a husband can bbe trained reminds me of how we talk about animals, and to some extent, children.


That's how I read it too. I can imagine the exploding heads if we said anything about training women to be good wives!

I'd rather learn or be taught to be a good husband, thank you!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/12/10 04:10 PM
I'm with Marcos. I would love to be trained.

But I can see how others would take offense. Different strokes for different folks.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 10/12/10 04:49 PM
I'll agree that if a wife tries to train her husband (or vice versa), it's a disrespectful judgment. She better not be trying to train him. smile

But he better be trying to train himself, with a good training program, and maybe a good coach.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/12/10 04:55 PM
Training, braining, whatever...

I just want someone who is motivated to learn and change BASED ON WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED.

Last night he told me that I was the rock, the center of this family keeping everything together.

I told him that I wished he would be the rock. I could really use a rock beneath MY feet, too. He didn't get mad, he just hugged me.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 10/12/10 08:14 PM
That sounds encouraging, and I hope it felt encouraging to you.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 10/21/10 08:24 PM
CWMI, I've been off the boards for awhile, just now catchng up on your story. I sure do hope things improve, and soon.

DTC
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 10/21/10 09:13 PM
I have also been off the boards since July and wanted to say I am sorry you are in this situation and I hope something positive comes out of this.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/22/10 04:02 PM
Thanks, ya'll. I'm pretty much in limbo...everything is going well between H and I, I'm actually pretty psyched about going to N'Orleans, we're staying riverside and have tons of stuff to see and do within a mile, and after looking at schedules, me and the kids will only be missing one day of school instead of three. The kids' school has 'professional development' days, and I don't have to attend my Tuesday class because it's part of 'speech day' rotation and I was able to speak this week, listen next, and not attend the third week.

"Limbo" because I've been apologized to I don't know how many times for his abusiveness and nastiness, and it's just flat now. His running to threats of abandonment is just so ugly and ridiculous and immature, and I know those are DJs but I don't really care anymore.

I'm reading that book schoolbus mentioned several times on SAA, "Leadership and Self-Deception" and it is so dead-on about my life. I don't know if H will read it. He saw me reading it and asked about it, but I had just started it and didn't have much to tell him, only that I'd heard it was about creating problems by your own self-deception and that I read the introduction online and thought I would enjoy it. I wish he'd ask again. Or pick it up. Because even though I know that I shouldn't be looking at other people's 'boxes', I know that MANY MANY issues would be resolved if my H would find his way out of his box. He gets so angry at others when he has done something wrong. Mostly, he gets hateful toward me if he's done something to betray trust.

I'm just living, not worrying too much about him at all, just focusing on my kids and my schoolwork and I'm really proud of some extra stuff I've done at school lately, creative work I was sought out for and now the finished product is up and it's awesome. smile

H says that he will never ever let things at this place get like they were at the last. I don't believe him, told him so, and told him that the reason why I DON'T believe him is because the first time it came up and I said I wasn't happy about it, he threatened to divorce me instead of changing anything at work. I think that's valid.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 10/22/10 04:22 PM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Originally Posted By: CWMI
He gets so angry at others when he has done something wrong. Mostly, he gets hateful toward me if he's done something to betray trust.


One can learn not to do this. I used to do this when I was in college. It took a long time of my classmates complaining (military school- they couldn't just ignore me) before I could actually see I was exploding in anger at people around me for things they didn't do. Or over-reacting to the little things they DID do.

Part of my "recovery" was taking responsibility for my own anger (someone can be stupid, but that doesn't mean I have to be angry about it). For example, guy cuts me off in the road. I can react or not react- it's my choice.

Another part of recovery was taking steps to resolve the things in my life that weren't right, whether they were my fault or not. For example, it's not my fault my dad was abusive and sent to jail for a few years. But until I dealt with that anger and grief that anger was spilling into other areas of my life. I was like the ocean after a storm- calm on top, but still a lot of angry energy under the calm waves so it didn't take much extra energy to stir me back up. Dealing with the event helped calmed the seas so I wouldn't over react.

I'm not giving these examples to threadjack, but to explain what I mean.

Hopefully your husband can 1) realize he needs to and then 2) actually get to the source of what's really bothering him about himself. I wonder if that will make him more willing to meet your needs.

Unfortunately, I don't think either one of those is a process you can speed up for him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/22/10 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2

Hopefully your husband can 1) realize he needs to and then 2) actually get to the source of what's really bothering him about himself. I wonder if that will make him more willing to meet your needs.


I think he is willing, but not able. I am honestly at the point where i believe that he knows what is right, and wants to do the right things, but has no idea how to reconcile that to societal demands and proceeds to do whatever it takes to ensure that the most people possible think well of him so that he may feel well of himself.

As I am a mere one of dozens of people he interacts with daily, I don't count for much on his grand scale. He handles me with appeasement. Just like he handles everyone else.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/22/10 07:34 PM
Hey, CWMI, I know last time you sat down with your husband and you guys did the "how do you see marriage, whatcha want from it, etc etc" questions.

I know you feel your husband has a lot of issues that he needs to work on. I'm curious. How does he view you?

Is he comfortable enough to be honest with you to say, "I don't like it when you X and Y and Z?"

I bring this up because how we see ourself is always a bit different (maybe not always though) from the way others see us. My wife and I do the occassional "how am I doing as a husband/wife in your eyes? And is there anything I can do that I'm not doing that you would like?"
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/22/10 07:50 PM
kt, In my experience with him, I am the most horrible person imaginable and incompetent as a wife and mother AFTER I've called him on something.

If things are going well (iow, he hasn't betrayed me lately, or I have offered forgiveness for a betrayal) then I am a Proverbs 31 woman and the most solid person he's ever known. I am a rock and he is so grateful and wants to be like me.

He has told me that most people are not as open and honest as I am, and that is why I have problems relating to people. They don't know how to take it. Society is not honest, and I should adapt?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/22/10 08:12 PM
KT, I do want to add...I've been turning circles on MY PART. Am I pretty enough? Am I smart enough? (Am I rough enough? Am I tough enough? I'm not too blind to see...don't let me be your beast of burden...lol)

The only things he would like me to do that I'm not doing is:

1. Be at the whim of his job

2. Not hate it when he jobs oversteps our family.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/22/10 08:48 PM
CWMI, I think you know what is going on here. He is ashamed that he cannot meet your need. He feels he cannot earn a standard of living that he can be proud of and also meet your requirements as to hours worked, business intrusion into personal life, business travel, etc. Instead of turning inward and searching for a way to satisfy the competing demands, he turns on you. And asks you to reduce your demands.

Not MB behavior. Not loving and cherishing your spouse. But very common and understandable.

It doesn't matter whether he views your needs and boundaries as reasonable. You are entitled to want what you want. No reason for you to be enthusiastic about his falling short or his refusing to even try to meet your ENs. No reason for you to feel romantic love for him if he continues to behave the way he behaves.

But as you say, maybe he simply cannot do better. Or maybe he can, but he is so convinced he can't that he won't even try. Doesn't matter which it is. He has decided he is not going to meet your ENs. His choice leaves you with a very tough decision.

My wife has recently decided, at least as far as I can tell, to give up on my ever meeting her need for FS. She appears to be willing to stay with me and make the best of it even though I am unable to meet her need. You are not obliged to make the same choice. In many ways I would admire you if you decided to leave him. That would take guts I don't have.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/22/10 11:26 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
kt, In my experience with him, I am the most horrible person imaginable and incompetent as a wife and mother AFTER I've called him on something.


Is this something he has verbally stated as you have typed or how you feel?

Quote:
He has told me that most people are not as open and honest as I am, and that is why I have problems relating to people. They don't know how to take it. Society is not honest, and I should adapt?


I think most people are confrontation avoiders and so they don't speak their mind or are a bit more polite than needed. Now my wife is a type A personality. She was very at ease with telling people exactly what she thought when she wanted. However, her message didn't come across because she came across as very very rude and demeaning. She would say that she did not mean to come across that way but if people couldn't take it...oh well, wasn't her problem...people are just to sensitive.

Thankfully she's calmed a bit so that now she's honest without ripping their spine out.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/22/10 11:31 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
KT, I do want to add...I've been turning circles on MY PART. Am I pretty enough? Am I smart enough? (Am I rough enough? Am I tough enough? I'm not too blind to see...don't let me be your beast of burden...lol)


Have you asked him these things? I think we can internalize things about how our spouse might feel till we're exhausted and we still don't know if we're right or not.

Quote:
The only things he would like me to do that I'm not doing is:

1. Be at the whim of his job

2. Not hate it when he jobs oversteps our family.


Are these things he's said. Or are they how you think he feels?

p.s. Was your husband an only child? Was his dad a workaholic?

My dad was. Still is. He can't stay retired if his life depended on it.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Duped - 10/23/10 02:53 PM
CWMI:

I still beleive that you are locked in the same dance that my BW and I had.

Work first, all else second.

MB trained me out of that. How I could still do what I needed to do at work, but I provided my BW with the information she needed to run her life.

When the boss says I have to work late, or go away, or do X, Y and Z, I call my BW and tell her what is up, and then I go tell the boss what I can DO.

That puts you first. You feel that you are number 3, 4, 7, or 15 on the list. And NO wife should be in that space.

Work on THAT for a while. Just have him keep you in the loop about what is happening. A text message, or a quick phone call, "work till 6 2night" or "Sudden order, will leave @ 6:30" or "Boss says trip to Cleveland around Nov 5th, what's happenening?"

Get him trained on the simple things, of bringing you into the loop. THe bigger concerns will start to get addressed that way.

And no DJ's about: "I have told him to do that before!, and he doesn't!" "he isn't that concerned", etc.

Your looking for a better marraige. He wants you to be happy. You can't get happy until he starts treating you like an equal. So start small, and build from there.

LG
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/23/10 05:26 PM
kt, over and over again in our interactions, it begins with me stating that I'm not happy about something that he did or plans to do, and he responds with a list of things that I have done 'wrong' (the list of 100 pages??? still haven't seen that).

He has said he wants me to show more support of his career by doing exactly those things: adjusting our plans to fit the whims of his job and to do so happily. No, his father barely ever worked at all, they were extremely poor. Whether or not he was an only child is debatable. He has something like 20 siblings if you count all of his natural parents' children and the children of their various spouses over the years, so sometimes he lived with no siblings in the home, full siblings in the home, half siblings in the home, or step-siblings in the home. Varied month to month and year to year. ETA: sometimes he lived with other relatives, and even some non-relatives as well.

LG: "When the boss says I have to work late, or go away, or do X, Y and Z, I call my BW and tell her what is up, and then I go tell the boss what I can DO." How can I get him to do THAT? He does call and tell me what he is doing, after the decision is made. He considers that to be 'keeping me in the loop.' How do I get him to see that I need to be part of the decision-making process?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/23/10 06:57 PM
CWMI, it sounds like he's in a tit-for-tat mode in which you bring up something you are not comfortable with and he responds with something on your end or 2 things.

Aside from him thinking you should be okay with decisions related to his job, when he talks about the things you do wrong that is 100 pages wrong, does he go into specifics?

I could be wrong but it sounds like he has the typical traits a woman has (no offense to women) in which they store a bunch of stuff up and then just lash it all out at once when the man brings up something he is displeased with.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/23/10 07:51 PM
No, no specifics. He'll say something like, "Oh yeah? Well YOU make decisions and then tell ME that I just need to accept it!"

I'll say, "Like what? Give me an example of a time i did that."

And he'll say, "Well, I can't think of anything right now. But I'm sure i could list a hundred!"

Or he'll say, "YOU keep secrets, YOU lie!" I'll ask for a specific example, he'll have none ("can't think of one right now, but I will! Oh, you betcha I will!" or--even better--"oh, you know what I'm talking about, don't pretend you don't! I don't have to tell you, because you already know what I'm talking about, don't play dumb."). It would be hilarious if it wasn't my life.

It would be nice if he had specifics. Sometimes he does, but they're so way out from left field that it's hard to take the complaint seriously. I'll say, "I'm not happy about you buying a car without discussing it with me first." and he'll reply, "Oh yeah, well you spent an hour on the phone with your sister!" wth? Are these things related? Did he plan and execute the buying of a car during that hour-long conversation, and I was too busy to talk to? I would have gotten off the phone to discuss it! lol. This was not recent, btw, although we have had a recent discussion about car-buying--we agreed that barring an emergency, we would not purchase another car until the end of 2012. Then I caught him shopping for one online, narrowing his search down to our local area for a specific vehicle. He was offended that I would question him about his intention, after all, it was no different from me looking at multi-million dollar mansions for sale. Um, he has NEVER come home to discover that I have bought a $5mil mansion, I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.

*sigh*
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/23/10 09:31 PM
cwmi, when you talked with Steve, did you all have like a back-up plan? What to do when living with your H was making more withdrawals than deposits, and speaking to him wasn't bringing the win-win solutions?
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Duped - 10/25/10 12:54 PM
CWMI:

You stated this:

Quote:
I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.



How many times, really?

Once, twice, Three Times? I mean, how many cars has your family owned since you have been married? I ask because I want to caution about exaggeration in these matters. One time does not a pattern make. "You do it all the time!" and "Always!" are lovebusters...

KT mentioned something about the "list of wrongs" (my term) that a woman can store up. My BW certainly can come up with very specific, and detailed times that I have done something WRONG. And just like your husband, I can NOT detail the lovebusters and DJ's that come my way in quite the same manner. And I am not saying that talking to your sister equates to buying a car.

I am saying that ALL LoveBusters are bad. A number 10 LB'er hurts just like a #1 LB'er, regardless if your can cite time and place three years later.

Quit asking him for specifics. Start discussing lovebusters in general. And start trying to learn were you push his buttons, much like he pushes yours.

He might feel that he is a very successful person in the workplace, and a loser at home. And your description of his FOO and circumstances would seem to support my take on how he might see himself. I have four siblings, and a very poor background, so I can relate.

My BW never thought I doing all that well at this work thing either.....

So you gotta put away the scorekeeping lists. Your always going to win this one. And what does it do to move the convo forward? He shuts down, and you don't understand why he won't talk to you about his problems.....

As NED stated, it might be time for a little refresher with SH.

It can get better. Ours did. Yours can.

LG
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/25/10 03:00 PM
Originally Posted By: lousygolfer
Once, twice, Three Times? I mean, how many cars has your family owned since you have been married? I ask because I want to caution about exaggeration in these matters. One time does not a pattern make. "You do it all the time!" and "Always!" are lovebusters...


I like this. I'm not sure if you are quilty of this, CWMI. But I do know that my wife used to be quite often. And from witnessing numerous arguments between friends and family, it's not uncommon to hear "You always..." or some variant of it.

Quote:
KT mentioned something about the "list of wrongs" (my term) that a woman can store up. My BW certainly can come up with very specific, and detailed times that I have done something WRONG. And just like your husband, I can NOT detail the lovebusters and DJ's that come my way in quite the same manner. And I am not saying that talking to your sister equates to buying a car.




This sounds familiar what used to go on in my marriage. And this sounds familiar in much the way men and women operate. A lot of husbands would say, “I’m not sure what happened…she just dropped a bunch of complaints on me from out of nowhere. “ And then the husband would say something like, “Well, you’ve pissed me off too!” And when the wife asks for specific examples, the husband doesn’t have any. I would say your husband falls into the typical guy syndrome with this. You might ask him to be honest with you when you upset him at the time you upset him so he’ s not trying to scramble and bring up something. All he knows is that he’s been upset by you but doesn’t really keep the details in his head.

Here’s an example of not bringing stuff up when it should be brought up. Sunday my wife and I were supposed to go out and watch a movie and go out to eat for lunch without the kids. All week I was looking forward to it. Then Sunday rolls around and my wife has a change of heart and decides she wants to take the kids fishing and go to the park. And I had reminded her at least twice a day everyday T, W, Th, and F to ask her mom to watch the kids for a few hours so we could go out. Each time she said, “No problem. I keep forgetting to ask her. I’ll do it soon.” Well, she hadn’t brought it up to her mom it turns out. Now granted I had some homework due and the carpets needed to be cleaned. So I used this time to clean the carpets and get some homework done. But I would rather have sacrificed some sleep to do the homework and gone out on a date with my wife. But I didn’t say anything. And I still haven’t said to my wife, “you know, I’m really upset that we had made plans to go out and we didn’t.” I will though today when I shoot her a text in a bit. If not, then I start to think, “why would I bring something up that happened three days ago or a week ago” (or insert X amount of time). And when you’re upset with your spouse, one tends to be a bit more heightened and sensitive to other things that wouldn’t normally upset them…but do.

Soooo…that’s a long story short to say your husband just might not bring stuff up that upsets him when it does upset him and then time passes and doesn’t want to bring up old stuff. Pretty soon details start to fade but we do know that our wives have upset us. But we don’t have specifics and so it gets dismissed because we don’t have details. Meanwhile, the wives are bombarding the husband with very specific details.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 10/25/10 03:46 PM
Wow, this is right on for me. I think it is normal to be on the defensive when attacked.

My problem is that my husband denies things even as they are happening making me sound like a nag.

Last week he recieved a phone call from a friend of mine. He didn't tell me about it for 2 days. I informed him of my frustration nicely and he apologized. The next day, I called home several times expecting an important phone call about test results on our dog. When I expressed frustration on not having heard from the vet, he "remembered" that they had called before he left for work. Now I was very exasperated (needing to pick up meds after having been that way) I said, can you just let calls go to voicemail? in a not so nice voice.

He was hurt and angry and stated that it was only one mistake and I shouldn't be so upset...so....I reminded him of the other recent mistake. Please note that it is a standing joke with my close friends and family so that they always call back when he has taken a message but I didn't go into that...just the recent occurence.

What should I have done?

I empathsize with CWIM. Sure her husband probably hasn't bought that many cars but maybe he makes frequent big purchases without asking. If she states the obvious and he looks at her like she is crazy then of course she will want to give examples.

Having said that, I am now making a concerted effort to NOT bring up his shortcomings when I am attacked....you know like

"How could you forget the milk?" "Yeah well, last week you forgot toliet paper."

It isn't like this with my girlfriends. I have one who is always late, she knows she is always late and we make adjustments for that. My DH denies and is insulted when I suggest we make adjustments.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: lousygolfer
CWMI:

You stated this:

Quote:
I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.



How many times, really?

Once, twice, Three Times?


Seven.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower


Soooo…that’s a long story short to say your husband just might not bring stuff up that upsets him when it does upset him and then time passes and doesn’t want to bring up old stuff. Pretty soon details start to fade but we do know that our wives have upset us. But we don’t have specifics and so it gets dismissed because we don’t have details. Meanwhile, the wives are bombarding the husband with very specific details.


How does that have anything to do with me? If you, or my H, fail to speak up, how is that the fault of the wife? If you just know you're upset but don't know why, what are we supposed to do with that?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/25/10 07:39 PM
Well, you might ask him if he genuinely has complaints or is upset about something then bring it up as it happens or very shortly after rather than to say "Well, I have a ton of complaints about you toobut I can't remember any specifically. "

As an example, perhaps he really was upset about you spending so much time on the phone. And he doesn't say anything to you but stews on it for awhile internally. So, of course, you have no idea he's upset and the issue can't be addressed until it's brought out.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 08:33 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Well, you might ask him if he genuinely has complaints or is upset about something then bring it up as it happens or very shortly after rather than to say "Well, I have a ton of complaints about you toobut I can't remember any specifically. "

As an example, perhaps he really was upset about you spending so much time on the phone. And he doesn't say anything to you but stews on it for awhile internally. So, of course, you have no idea he's upset and the issue can't be addressed until it's brought out.


Do you mean educate him on RH?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 10/25/10 09:06 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Do you mean educate him on RH?


Yup. And I'm pretty sure you have since you've been integrating the MB program into your marriage for awhile. Sometimes we guys take a time or five before we get it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/25/10 09:17 PM
CWMI, I predict you are going to continue to be frustrated with your H. I do not think you are on the same page on some fairly major issues. And I do not think your H is prepared to be honest with you. Because he fears (and not unreasonably) that if he admits the truth, you won't want to remain married to him. I think it will be very difficult for you to motivate your H to adopt RH while he feels this way.

My wife and I have gone through this. She would not be honest about her attitude toward sex. I allowed her to continue to hold unreaslistic expectations of my career ambitions. In both cases, we refused to be RH because we feared that the other person would leave if we were honest.

I think you need to make a decision. You need to decide for yourself what you will and will not tolerate. Are you leaving if he refuses to be open and honest? Are you leaving if he admits that he has no intention of involving you in his work decisions? Are you staying either way, but you want to know where you stand so you can adopt appropriate coping mechanisms?

Radical Honesty is wonderful where both people are committed to building a fabulous marriage as a first order life goal. It is great when people get to the point where they view criticism from a spouse as valuable information, so that the listener can better meet their spouse's needs and avoid love busters. But that attitude requires that one believe they can succeed. I must have confidence that, with effort and accurate information about my wife's ENS, I can satisfy them.

I think your H lacks this confidence. I am guessing that he thinks he cannot succeed in his career if he adopts the restrictions you are suggesting. Which is why he wants you to loosen the restrictions. Not saying he is right. Not saying you aren't entitled to want what you want. But if he doesn't think he can provide what you want, he may well continue to press you to ask for less rather than stepping up and offering you (and demanding from outsiders) more.

I can remember many conversations in which I basically told Mrs. Hold "please do not ask me or express desire for anything I can't afford to buy you. It makes me feel incompetent and worthless." Yes, I know that goes against RH. I should want to know her desires so we can POJA a way to satisfy them. But I didn't believe any POJA was available (still don't), so I didn't want to hear her requests. Perhaps your H feels similarly?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 09:53 PM
Hold, the difference here is that I would be happier with less money and a less successful husband. I'm not asking for that which is unprovidable, I'm asking for consideration in decisions. Any healthy human being can give that. It's not a 'thing' it's a thought.

And I remind you, he threatened divorce over this, not me, so I don't see how you can figure that he won't be honest out of fear of me leaving? He was leaving me if I didn't just 'suck it up!' That's not someone who is afraid of being left, that's someone who wants to have their way. At all cost.

He did start reading Leadership and Self-Deception last night. You're right, Hold, I will continue to be frustrated with my H unless and until I pull the plug (which he won't, apparently, after so many threats to do so with no action).
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 09:56 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Do you mean educate him on RH?


Yup. And I'm pretty sure you have since you've been integrating the MB program into your marriage for awhile. Sometimes we guys take a time or five before we get it.


Two years???

How the *blank* does a guy who moves to the front of his company in four months not grasp the concept of BEING HONEST in TWO FLIPPING YEARS???

Sorry, exasperated, not fighting with you, but this 'he's a dude, we're stupid' crap doesn't fly with me.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Duped - 10/25/10 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
How the *blank* does a guy who moves to the front of his company in four months not grasp the concept of BEING HONEST in TWO FLIPPING YEARS???


Isn't he a car salesman?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 10:19 PM
lol. Yes, yes he is...

I was a bartender, I was still able to incorporate honesty into my core, even though my job was being the best bullslinger around. I made my best money telling outrageous stories and faking affection, attention, and basic caring. I can tell the difference between money and life. Do you think a car salesman cannot?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 10/25/10 10:27 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: lousygolfer
CWMI:

You stated this:

Quote:
I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.



How many times, really?

Once, twice, Three Times?


Seven.


LG: still think I'm exaggerating? I'm really curious if you think 7 cars in 10 years is too many to buy without your spouse's consent.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 10/25/10 10:39 PM
Well, for what's it's worth, I think buying 7 cars in 10 years is wasteful period, and extremely bad for the environment. I don't think I've owned 7 cars in my entire life.

But buying even 1 car without consulting with your spouse about it first is wrong.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 10/25/10 11:00 PM
Well, yes, if you have a H who prefers more time at work, more money, and less time with you, then your marriage has a BIG problem. If his entire sense of self and worth is tied into his job. And his marriage to you comes behind that. Then he will not choose to implement the MB system.

As you know, Dr. Harley will not counsel couples who refuse to commit to 15 hours of UA time. Because the MB system won't work without it. If your H prioritizes work over UA time and POJAing with you, you have your answer. Not a happy answer. But an answer. Refusing to accept his answer is likely to increase your frustration.

I have spent over 13 years refusing to accept my wife's answer. And she, mine. It has not lead to happiness for either of us. YMMV. And i hope it does.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 10/25/10 11:23 PM
Quote:
And I remind you, he threatened divorce over this, not me, so I don't see how you can figure that he won't be honest out of fear of me leaving? He was leaving me if I didn't just 'suck it up!' That's not someone who is afraid of being left, that's someone who wants to have their way. At all cost.


At the risk of both sounding like Captain obvious and telling you something you already know, Hold's quote was super-easy to apply to your situation. He would be resistant to RH because it stands in the way of him getting his way. And if it's choosing between you and getting his way, well, the answer is obvious.

I don't remember, have you read the When to Call It Quits article? The family in that article reconciled. If you have the choice of
  1. living the next five years like this and taking those steps and
  2. taking those steps now
what are the pros and cons of each? Maybe you're like the man dealing with no SF in the 3rd article, a soggy potato chip is better than no potato chip. BTDT! I guess it takes what it takes. I'm still praying and hoping for a happy outcome for you guys.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/07/10 07:43 PM
Well, still married. lol.

New Orleans was NOT what I expected...I don't know if it was the filth, bums, and unbelievable expense (really? $9 for a 2-liter soda and a 16oz bottle of water? No wonder there's so much poverty there) or the way my H was a complete a-hole while we were there. He said that *I* put us in that position of being there. He deludes himself much. I did correct him. (He: You're the one who wanted to come here! Me: Wait a dang minute. I never said I wanted to come here. I said I wanted you to get a job with no travel. Don't you dare blame me for the situations YOU put us in.)

It wasn't a total loss; we did see the St. Louis Cathedral, and the French Market, and all of Canal Street, and hit Harrah's. Spent about ten minutes on Bourbon Street and ran! Ick. I feel like I need penicillin just for being there.

Personally, I'm doing great. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I got the position of asst editor for my school's literary magazine, and last week I was invited into the honors program. So school is awesome. It is my element.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 11/07/10 09:46 PM
Hi, I am learning to be more positive about things and appreciate things and be grateful for what I have. Already I am enjoying everything about life more....I would like to practice my new attitude on your post here since it sounds quite negative.

Well, still married. lol.

Not too negative but a little, little sharp joke.

New Orleans was NOT what I expected...I don't know if it was the filth, bums, and unbelievable expense (really? $9 for a 2-liter soda and a 16oz bottle of water? No wonder there's so much poverty there)

Positive translation:

I enjoyed the trip to New Orleans with my husband mostly because he asked me to go with him.


or the way my H was a complete a-hole while we were there. He said that *I* put us in that position of being there.

Positive twist:

I liked being around my husband and spending time with him that we do not usually have available at home.


He deludes himself much. I did correct him. (He: You're the one who wanted to come here! Me: Wait a dang minute. I never said I wanted to come here. I said I wanted you to get a job with no travel. Don't you dare blame me for the situations YOU put us in.)

Positive spin:

There is no way to make this positive unless you did not correct him at all. This is too negative to change, you would have to change your personality and your deep negative attitudes, in order to change this statement since it is clear you treat your husband badly and are PROUD of it.

It wasn't a total loss; we did see the St. Louis Cathedral, and the French Market, and all of Canal Street, and hit Harrah's.

Positive spin: This is quite positive, no need to change.


Spent about ten minutes on Bourbon Street and ran! Ick. I feel like I need penicillin just for being there.

Positive translation:

Spent about ten minutes on Bourbon Street to see the old buildings, bars, and farmer's market.

Personally, I'm doing great. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I got the position of asst editor for my school's literary magazine, and last week I was invited into the honors program. So school is awesome. It is my element.

Positive spin not needed for this statement. It is OK on its own. If only you could love your husband this much, speak well of him, respect him and treat him well. I hope someday you can and will do that.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/08/10 12:40 AM
Been there, done that! Went sightseeing on Bourbon street with the kids, their dad, and four more grown relatives. All the adults except me had been there before, but only one had been with a kid, so none of us realized how totally inappropriate place it was to bring them. Everyone was like, oh, it's not usually like this, the next block iill be better, but no, it was more of the same, porn photos in the windows. I got more and more uncomfortable, until *finally* I got a smart idea and went went one block over, and who knew, it was the Gulf! NO embarrassing stuff! Peacful and scenic, like the vacation I had in mind smile I told the other folks, we have cellphones, I'll stay with the kids over here and call you later, but no, they came with us, and enjoyed the Gulf view, too. I wish I'd remembered you were going there, I would've given you the heads-up ahead of time.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/08/10 09:51 PM
Do you mean the Mississippi River? The Gulf is quite a ways from downtown New Orleans. We walked along the riverside park and watched the boats, *almost* got on the ferry to Algiers but the kids weren't as excited about that as I. smile

I was shocked at the pornographic/vulgar displays, not only on Bourbon, but in the little convenience stores, too. We went in one to buy sodas and they had a big display of "F'ing Hot Sauce" and "Generic Condoms for Cheap F'ers" (all spelled out, mind you), and that was way down at Canal and Tchapitoulus (sp? I kept calling it Chipotle, lol). What a strange town. Vegas never appeared so blatantly crude to me. Vegas is lovely and respectful in comparison!
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/08/10 10:00 PM
Vegas is lovely and respectful?

Must have changed since the last time I was there. Used to be you could walk down the street and see pamphlets full of naked women in positions that exposed things only an OB/GYN ought to see.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Duped - 11/08/10 11:44 PM
When my husband started having his business intrude on our home time I went through a lot of the actions you describe CWMI, and had a certain amount of what I figured was righteous indignation. DH just called it anger.

Anyway, I finally realized that half of what I was angry about was the way my husband was presenting these events. He knew I would be unhappy about him leaving, and this made him defensive about the way he would present things. He'd say "yeah, I have to leave in 2 days to go to [some remote site]. No I don't know how long I'll be gone, and they don't have cell phone service out there." End of story.

This left me incredibly frustrated and had me trying to reshuffle a weeks worth of plans to accomodate his ever, changing schedule. Drove me insane.

Finally I asked him to consider things from my point of view, which he said he did. And I asked him to present situations like this gently, and to let me know that he wished he didn't have to go, etc.

So then his rewording of the situations would be "you know that situation out in [ remote place x ], well I've gotta go sort it out, and it means that I'll probably miss Jr's concert (or whatever). I hate this part of my job, I'm probably gonna for gone for 4 days or so I can call you from the hotel each evening when I get back from the mine site."

That was much better, and made me feel appreciated even though I still was left as the single parent for a week or more sometimes.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 02:13 AM
I'm not trying to figure out how to just deal with it.

I am 100% not interested in a traveling man. I KNOW this. I have known this since before I met my H. And I told him when we got serious.

The only adjustment, make-me-feel-better thing that I see happening is either he doesn't travel, or I find a new man.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 02:16 AM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Vegas is lovely and respectful?

Must have changed since the last time I was there. Used to be you could walk down the street and see pamphlets full of naked women in positions that exposed things only an OB/GYN ought to see.


In comparison, imho. laugh
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Duped - 11/09/10 08:33 AM
So are you saying that the only type of marriage that you will tolerate is 0% travel?

What I mean is, are there acceptable circumstances where you would agree that you are willing to accept travel? If there are none, then I think you need to tell him this, and not just complain when it happens. It needs to be this is a deal-breaker, nope, I won't put up with it. Never, ever, or we do plan D.

Evidently from your posts, there is no way to poja this. And I hear you on that. Perhaps husband needs to as well. And perhaps you need to stick by your guns if this is the case. What I see is you laying down the law (figuratively speaking), husband going along with it in theory, his job getting in the way of this, him lying to hide it, finally coming out with it when he has no choice, you chewing him out for it, and then you both getting on with life.

Can you live this pattern for the rest of your marriage? I understand that Dr. Harley agrees with you that there should be no separated over-night travel. But does your husband?
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Duped - 11/09/10 10:33 AM
It does appear the problem here is that there is no "poja"

For "poja" there nneeds to be enthusiastic agreement.

To say the "husband is going along with it in theory" is somewhat overstating it. He clearly says he feels manipulated. Certainly not enthusiastic. More like goiing along with it under duress.

For a good working "poja" there needs to be consideration of the other spouse, from both sides. It appears to be similar in some ways to John Nash's (beautiful mind) theory on negotiation.

Each person needs to consider the other so that a win win situation developes. If there is no win win, then there is unlikely to be any enthusiastic agreement.

Some of the best results from "poja" come from when a dominant partner realises that to "poja" they need to consider the other person. This can have a transforming effect.

Due consideration is probably the fundametal basis for a good marriage.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 12:16 PM
And again, we're back to the whole situation where he changed jobs to one that he said had ZERO travel. SH TOLD him to do that. Not poja it, DO IT.

My H said that he has no choice. EVERY job has mandatory travel. That's ridiculous.

How (or why?) would I possibly poja something that I know will result in me hating my H?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/09/10 12:29 PM
cwmi, that makes sense, the Missisippi River, then. We've had similar experiences in Las Vegas, but you're right, the scale was entirely different. And I didn't do too good a job of being non-judgmental about it, either. I was all like, how could the put that stuff here?! But I was on their turf, they don't bring their stuff in my neighborhood, so why was I bringing my kids into theirs? Down here, you can spend days in the Keys or South Beach with the kids, and not run into anything embarrassing if you get the kids back to the hotel by bedtime. So it was something new to learn, that some places don't have kid-friendly daytimes.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 12:47 PM
It certainly didn't fit in with the 'family-friendly' atmosphere that the new boss touted they prided themselves in. I read that in an email, so I know he said it. "Oh yes, we're very family-centered and are quite proud of our morals! So we're sending you to one of the seediest cities on earth! Enjoy!"
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 11/09/10 02:58 PM
I know you mentioned it before. But how much/how often is his new job wanting him to travel?

I know that Dr. Harley says that we are the source of our spouses happiness but do you not think "hating him" is kind of extreme?
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 11/09/10 03:15 PM
CWMI-
I guess, what I don't get in all of this, is why your husband isn't respecting/following Steve's advice. Counseling with SH takes lots of resources, in terms of time and money. Why spend those resources for something that won't be used?

Has SH told your husband he can't cherry pick the MB program? That your husband can't negotiate which parts of SH's advice he's going to follow and which he won't.

Have you guys considered having a brush up session with SH?

Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/09/10 04:57 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
It certainly didn't fit in with the 'family-friendly' atmosphere that the new boss touted they prided themselves in. I read that in an email, so I know he said it. "Oh yes, we're very family-centered and are quite proud of our morals! So we're sending you to one of the seediest cities on earth! Enjoy!"


To me, this gives me some hope that your husband was told something different than what is now practiced when he was hired.

Still, I think he either has to tell them he will do no travel, or you have to cut him loose. Your feelings are unbending on this point.

It sounds like a dealbreaker to me. It wouldn't be for me, but I'm not you and you are the one who matters.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 05:05 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
I know you mentioned it before. But how much/how often is his new job wanting him to travel?

I know that Dr. Harley says that we are the source of our spouses happiness but do you not think "hating him" is kind of extreme?


I have no idea. Does it matter? Are you suggesting I tolerate occasional deal-breakers?

Hating probably is extreme, but I've been in a couple of situations with traveling guys before H. One of them I was essentially using, did not like him much but liked very much that I was able to live in his house for free and he was never there. (hey, I was young...)

The other I loved very much and planned to marry until he took a travel job and it was about six weeks into it that I said, nope, not for me, and broke it off with him.

So yeah, the only way I see me ever being okay with a relationship with a dude who travels is if I don't like him and he means nothing to me. Why would I want that?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
CWMI-
I guess, what I don't get in all of this, is why your husband isn't respecting/following Steve's advice. Counseling with SH takes lots of resources, in terms of time and money. Why spend those resources for something that won't be used?

Has SH told your husband he can't cherry pick the MB program? That your husband can't negotiate which parts of SH's advice he's going to follow and which he won't.

Have you guys considered having a brush up session with SH?



Again, I don't know why he's not following the advice. I can speculate, based on some things he said. smile He felt manipulated by Steve to do what I want, and the advice did not take into consideration Real World Situations. My H does not believe that people have choices. You do what The Man tells you to do (the man who signs your paycheck, not your guru or g-forbid your spouse).

I asked H if he would join me in getting w/SH again, that's when I found out he felt totally manipulated by the process. He cannot believe that SH agreed with me about H answering his phone when I call. SH told him that business people (at least moral business people, those who believe that marriage is precious and to be protected) RESPECT a person who excuses themself to take a spouse's call. H does not believe that at all. I even asked H about two scenarios: one where a client's phone rang and they looked and said, "Meh, it's my wife," and shut it off, and a client whose phone rang, they said, "It's my wife. Excuse me one minute," and which one he would have more respect for, which one he would come away thinking was the trustworthy person, and he said the one who excused themself to take the call. ??? I have no idea. I really think my H does not believe social rules apply to him.

He does answer his phone now, mostly, and if he doesn't, he texts me right away to tell me why.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 11/09/10 05:27 PM
Nah, I'm not suggesting giving into deal breakers. I was attempting to think there could possibly be a positive. Say hehe has to travel for one weekend once a month, you two could use it as a chance to get away and see a new city. Has your husband asked if the travel is mandatory?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 05:48 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Has your husband asked if the travel is mandatory?


I highly doubt it. At his last two jobs it actually wasn't...I knew the first job didn't require it, and he lied about the second, and now this one. Plus, we have four young children...a monthly weekend away doesn't work for our family, and this would all be mid-week anyway. Travel does not work for anyone in our family except my H, and only if he does not care to take responsibility for the rest of us.

Day before yesterday I told him that I felt like we needed to take the ENQ and LBQ again. He asked me what he was doing or not doing that made me say that. I was like, "Really? This whole situation with the new job and the way you acted in N.O. and you don't know why?" I went on to tell him that dishonesty, coldness and anger were still problems, I did not feel cared for or considered, but mainly I wanted to know what I was doing wrong or not doing right so that I can determine whether this is a problem that can be solved by me, or if it's simply his personality.

So now he's writing love notes on the mirror and washing my car and being really sweet, but I'm feeling like it's not what I need. I need THIS problem to go away, the overnight travel.

At none of his jobs has it been frequent. But when you're a 0 on the scale, 1 is too many.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/09/10 09:01 PM
Hi cwmi,

I guess I am emphasizing that this is a deal breaker, because I don't see any way for you guys to come up with a win-win scenario unless your husband gives up the travel entirely, you will not be happy.

I am not blaming you or faulting you for your feelings on this point. Only stating the obvious.

If you won't budge, and he won't budge, and there is no other way he can make you happy (or vice versa), then you should go to plan B (in my opinion).

He can strive to fill your lovebank in every other single way, but if this a deal breaker, then he has to know that. He has no chance to make you happy if the hole in your lovebucket is gaping as a result of travel.

If it's a dealbreaker, then it's a dealbreaker. You deserve to be with someone who gives you what you need, and he deserves to be with someone who gives him what he needs.

That's my opinion.
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 11/09/10 09:17 PM
I agree with Telly. **** or get off the pot time, methinks.

He really has no reason to take you seriously at this point. You're still there and that's all that matter, it seems, in terms of what your "real" boundaries are.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 09:34 PM
Divorce it is then! Thanks, marriagebuilders.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Duped - 11/09/10 09:59 PM
CWMI

I am wondering if you feel it is better if your husband hates you for maintaining a fixed position and forcing him to make further changes?

There are always solutions to problems.

UA is very beneficial for a marriage. This can be difficult to achieve with children always around. A perfect solution to this can be for a couple to get away by themselves for a few days every 3 or 4 months. It is even better if an employer helps pay for this.

Sometimes we think we can not leave the children due to circumstance. In reality this would just make people feel trapped and so appropriate changes need to be made to accommodate this.

Travelling with your husband seems the ideal situation to promote a healthy family. The problem now appears to be that your work situation is too inflexible to allow for this UA time away.

The question now is, are you prepared to change your job, to find something else more family friendly? Is family important enough to you, that you are prepared to make the necessary changes?
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 11/09/10 10:20 PM
I'm not sure what other response is possible.

This is a non- POJA issue for you.

SH has supported you in that.

Your H does not agree with SH. No one can force him to accept anyone's counsel.

Unless your husband changes his mind, you are stuck, unless you would be willing to POJA, which you are not.

The thing speaks for itself. Nothing anyone tells you can change that, and very little that anyone tries to tell you gets through if it deviates in the slightest degree from your own desires.

Unless one or both of you changes your position, your future is clear. You can either make him face more severe consequences, or you can accept your lot in life.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 11/09/10 10:42 PM
I don't think the MB program would say you have to go directly to divorce. You could go to Plan B. Break off direct contact with him. Give him a taste of what life would be like without you. And see if that motivates him to seek a job where there really is NO travel at all.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 10:56 PM
I'm in school, not working a regular job, and my schedule is flexible and currently set to avoid any child care. Child care by others, not me. smile

My H, sometimes, appears to hate me and the kids for simply existing, because we make messes and require attention. I'm not forcing anyone to make any changes, only providing information to assist in decision making. I don't throw down ultimatums, I say, I don't like this and here is why and this is what the result will be if it continues.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/09/10 11:08 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I'm in school, not working a regular job, and my schedule is flexible and currently set to avoid any child care. Child care by others, not me. smile

My H, sometimes, appears to hate me and the kids for simply existing, because we make messes and require attention. I'm not forcing anyone to make any changes, only providing information to assist in decision making. I don't throw down ultimatums, I say, I don't like this and here is why and this is what the result will be if it continues.


Just curious, but what would you do if your H said that he didn't want you to go to school anymore (ever again)? He didn't like you being away from the house and the kids and he wanted you to be a SAHM, and if you continued going to school anyway, he would leave (Plan B, Plan D, whatever) since this was a deal breaker to him? No POJA. No trying to find a solution that might work for both of you. Just stop going to school or it's over. How would you feel?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 11:15 PM
We POJAd me going to school, but he has said that, and I said I would withdraw immediately if he was serious. He was not.

He never POJAd taking a job with travel.

What's your point?

Are you trying to say that I, too, would put my personal desires over the needs of my family?

Have you MET me?
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 11/09/10 11:20 PM
As I understand it, personal needs must be met in order to have a successful marriage. Family is secondary.

What you have just described sounds like sacrifice.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/09/10 11:21 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
We POJAd me going to school, but he has said that, and I said I would withdraw immediately if he was serious. He was not.

He never POJAd taking a job with travel.

What's your point?

Are you trying to say that I, too, would put my personal desires over the needs of my family?

Have you MET me?


I wasn't SAYING that. I was WONDERING. That's why I asked.

How can your H POJA taking a job that involves traveling when you've already made it perfectly clear that you will not tolerate any travel whatsoever? There doesn't seem to be much room for POJA there.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/09/10 11:33 PM
Originally Posted By: kerala
As I understand it, personal needs must be met in order to have a successful marriage. Family is secondary.

What you have just described sounds like sacrifice.


I'm sacrificing? Oh nononono...I'm doing exactly what I find personally fulfilling in a way that does not interfere with my first focus: serving my family.

I *could* put school first and take classes whenever I want: nights, weekends...I take them when my kids are in school.

I *could* take advantage of a study abroad program over the summer. I *could* take internships and work on my days off from school instead of using that time to take care of my household.

I *could* be all memememe all the freaking time, but I'm not, and won't.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/10/10 01:19 AM
Originally Posted By: writer1

I wasn't SAYING that. I was WONDERING. That's why I asked.


What did you expect me to say? If you expected anything other than what I said, I'd like to know why.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/10/10 02:41 AM
Cwmi,

Are you willing to negotiate with your husband? Is there room for any work-related travel in your life together?

I'm hearing "no" as your answer. Again, this wouldn't be my answer, but I'm not judging you. Just describing what I hear you saying over and over again.

Is your husband willing to negotiate a "no travel" career/position? It doesn't sound like he is willing to do that.

Here are your options (as I see it), given your unwavering feelings on the subject:

1) Counsel again with Dr. Harley and see if he has any new suggestions for you.

2) Go to plan B (which is actually what I suggested--I did not suggest divorce).

3) Find some big carrot to dangle for your husband (so far you haven't been able to find one).

4) Punish your husband in some way when he travels in the hopes that you can deter him (this hasn't worked so far).

It seems to me that options 1 and 2 are your best bet as neither of the other choices have worked. Failing to meet with Dr. Harley, that leaves you with #2.

Beyond that, I don't know what you want us to do/suggest for you?

You are unwilling to change your position. You have a zero-tolerance policy for work related travel (unless I'm missing something). Even you going along doesn't seem to be workable or seem to improve the situation any.

Your husband seems unwilling to change his position.

Just what kind of advice are you looking for?


Edited to add:

You are obviously not looking for us to give you advice on how to tolerate/accept any situation where there is work travel in your life together. You have made that clear.

Are you looking for advice on how to persuade your husband on how important this is to you? If Dr. H couldn't do it in a meaningful/lasting way, I doubt we could. The only thing I can suggest is Plan B.

If this situation is so intolerable that nothing can make you happy with him, then you should go to plan B. It is rare, but people do plan B for situations like this.

Otherwise, you will obviously just go along and continue to make each other miserable, as you cannot accept his lifestyle, and he cannot accept yours.

Are you planning to talk with Dr. Harley even if he isn't on board?


Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/10/10 03:18 AM
I'm rambling, Tel. Venting. I'm highly po'd at being duped here. I don't know if I'm madder at him, or me.

I BELIEVED him.

That makes me feel stupid.

And I'm not stupid, but I also don't make decisions based on feelings. You know this. Logically, does it make sense for me to blow up my family because I don't like the way I feel, however temporary or long-term it may be? I have a long-term temporary feeling of not being okay with this. lol. You get that, right?

We were talking about me taking a job...I brought it up after the "every job requires travel" speech (btw, he tried to tell me the most ridiculous thing...that his boss' wife trains people for a big fast-food chain and they require that teenagers fly out for training, I flagged BS, how ridiculous, no 16yr old Mickey D new hire travels for training! omg...however stupid I feel, he must think I'm waaaay stupider!)

--anyway, I asked him, "So, you think the only jobs I can get after graduating are going to require travel?"

He said, yep!

I said, so you're cool with that?

He said, I'll have to be!

I said, so you'll be here to get the kids off the bus, cook their dinner, put them to bed, pack their lunch, get them back on the bus, sign all the school papers, wash their clothes and everything while I'm gone?

He said, Wait a minute, I didn't say all that...

LOL.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/10/10 03:32 AM
I do think a call to Steve is in order. H was ready to pay for his brother and W to talk to him. I'll bring that up if he flinches.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/10/10 03:40 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: writer1

I wasn't SAYING that. I was WONDERING. That's why I asked.


What did you expect me to say? If you expected anything other than what I said, I'd like to know why.


I think I was wondering if there is something specific about your H's line of work that is very important and meaningful to him that he doesn't want to give up, even if it does require some travel. I agree that your M should come first, but I think most people need something else in their lives to feel fulfilled. For many men, this is their career. And if your career provides your H with a sense of fulfillment, and he must travel to have this career, then he may fear that he will have to give up something that is very important to him.

I'm not saying I think travel is a good idea in a M. And I certainly don't agree that travel is required for all jobs. My H has never traveled for work in any of his jobs. I've never traveled for work in any of my jobs.

But I do think you need to find out why this particular line of work is important to your H and what needs it fulfills for him. Some jobs do require travel. I don't know what your H does for a living, but pilot comes to mind. If it was someone's lifelong dream to become a pilot, I would think it would be very difficult to fulfill this dream without traveling. And, if someone had wanted to be a pilot since they were a child, having to give up that dream might be very difficult and create a huge sense of sacrifice.

I have wanted to be a writer since I was 5 (literally, that's when I wrote my first story and knew that's what I wanted to do). If my H decided that he wasn't okay with my writing (for whatever reason) and he wanted me to give that up, I would have a really hard time with that. But my H would never do that, because he knows how much my writing means to me.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/10/10 04:04 AM
He sells cars. I would never have married a pilot. There is a HUGE difference between wanting your spouse to give up something like writing vs something like flying. Read up on Lydia Sigourney. People only get peeved when you step on them; if you get mad just for gettin mad, you're an idiot. If you can't follow dreams without killing the family you created, you're an idiot. jmho.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/10/10 04:09 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
He sells cars. I would never have married a pilot. There is a HUGE difference between wanting your spouse to give up something like writing vs something like flying. Read up on Lydia Sigourney. People only get peeved when you step on them; if you get mad just for gettin mad, you're an idiot. If you can't follow dreams without killing the family you created, you're an idiot. jmho.


I definitely think you need to find a balance. If your dreams are more important than a family, then don't have one (I know plenty of writers who chose this route). I also know plenty of writers (myself included) who believe that their families enrich their lives, and therefore, their writing.

I never knew that car salesmen have to travel frequently. I've known quite a few, and travel didn't seem to be a huge part of the job. Has your H always traveled for work, or is this a more recent development?

I probably wouldn't have married a pilot either. But if I did, I would have done so knowing that he wouldn't be around all the time and knowing that I would have to accept this.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/10/10 04:27 AM
I would not have fallen in love with someone who traveled. I don't think it would be possible. It is not in me to be left alone. I can BE alone, I can not be LEFT alone. Does that make sense to anyone but me?

I don't think it makes sense to my H. "You/re a big strong girl, you can be alone!" Of flipping course I can, but I chose not to, and you promised me that you wouldn't leave me alone. I can be alone, or not alone, but I cannot do both. It's one or the other.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 11/10/10 08:31 AM
What do you want to change about yourself? How can we help you?
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 11/10/10 03:44 PM
Pardon, I am a O.T. quarterback, but I believe a call to Dr. H may be in your best intrest.

Have you considered the root of this issue just may be control?

If this is true, job/travel will be only one of dozens of arguments you may have.

You will never POJA if the root of the issue is who is in charge.

The 40's may be a ripe age for changing marriage dynamics,
(this does not meant that two educated people can not learn the pitfalls and rewards of coping with this.)

Does not mean the MB can not help you, I think MB opened my thinking into learning about relationship dynamics.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/10/10 05:45 PM
CWMI, have you guys considered getting into the online program where you could ask Dr. Harley (not Steve) questions directly and have him involved in supervising and motivating both of you?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/10/10 11:04 PM
That's an idea, markos. We spent more than that on phone coaching.

Barbie, I think the root of the issue is consideration. For instance, when I was invited into Honors at school, I talked with my H before I accepted it. It's going to mean tougher classes and more work. I talked to him before I accepted the position with the magazine, because it involves time and more work. I wanted to make sure he would be happy with more of my time going toward school, that it was workable between us. I told him how much time it was going to take, told him how I planned to manage it, and we agreed that it would be a good thing for me and wouldn't be a problem for him.

But now he gets offered something, and he makes the decision alone and informs me of his decision after the fact. And if I don't like it, too bad for me!

It's NOT controlling to want to be considered. It's not controlling to want to be part of the decision-making process, in fact, that is a basic tenet of the MB program.

He's not controlling toward me in telling what to do or not do. He's been quite pushy on the DS, but I think Steve pretty well resolved that issue. If there's a control issue at all, I would say it is that H wants to be in complete control of everything that he does without having to consider how that may affect anyone else.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 11/10/10 11:29 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
If there's a control issue at all, I would say it is that H wants to be in complete control of everything that he does without having to consider how that may affect anyone else.


Perhaps. You know him better than me. But what you posted is a DJ nonetheless.

Perhaps he doesn't want to be in control. You may find he feels he has very little control. Over you. Over his job. You may find that he is driven to meet your needs. And that he feels incapable of meeting those needs in a manner you find acceptable. I don't know what he feels.

But I am confident he won't admit the truth if he feels he is going to be judged and found wanting no matter what he says.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 11/10/10 11:47 PM
This is so sad. And revealing. I read thru all these posts one more time. I observed that there was NOT ONE POSITIVE THING you said about your husband. NOT ONE THING.

It was all DJ'S. You even called him an ass hole once. That is pretty bad. You are seething with hostility toward him.

I was hoping it was 80% DJ's to 20% nice things. But it looks like you are DJ'ING 100% regarding your husband. You must really hate him. Even though YOU are the inflexible one. You wont even allow ONE TRIP a year if YOU GO ALONG! Why not? Are you not wanting to go with him on a trip? What is YOUR DEAL HERE?????
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 11/10/10 11:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
This is so sad. And revealing. I read thru all these posts one more time. I observed that there was NOT ONE POSITIVE THING you said about your husband. NOT ONE THING.


Not true. She did say he's not controlling towards her. I believe that counts as 1 positive thing.

Quote:
It was all DJ'S. You even called him an ass hole once. That is pretty bad. You are seething with hostility toward him.

I'm not sure about seething with hostility but there seems to be a certain amount of animosity towards your husband in your posts. Perhaps it's just the way you post that makes it seem like this. But I tend to think part of our personalities come out in our writing. Do you think some of this perceived typed animosity leaks out away from the keyboard when you are around him?
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Duped - 11/11/10 07:53 AM
Duped

Why would your husband need to ask for your opinion concerning his work situation when he already knows what your opinion is??

Because your opinion on his work situation is inflexable and not changing from week to week it would seem unnecessary and repitious to continue asking the same question.

I think your husband does consider his family. You have said, from his POV he is the glue that holds the family together.

Your husband has gone the extra mile for his family by, in good faith, looking for a different job that is more family orientated. I think he has found that. In this time of GFC I do not think many would have risked doing that.

Your husband should be given a lot of credit.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 12:49 PM
Just a correction, he said *I* was the rock holding the family together.

Re the new job: he was getting a lot of pressure from me and Steve Harley to find new employment. He looked at a few job postings online and refused to look for something else in his field. This new job was brought to him by an old co-worker, he didn't 'seek' it, it was plopped in his lap. I think he felt a lot of pressure to take it, since it is an advancement, but he was plenty mad about changing jobs. After I learned that he misled me about what it would entail (he came home from the interview stating that there was no travel and spouses are invited to all events), I asked him why did he put us through this? Why change jobs if it was essentially no different from the last one? Why be angry at me for weeks about 'having' to change jobs when he didn't even change to one that meets my needs?

I get full sick about being punished for his choices. He knowingly does things he knows I won't like, then gets mad at me for not liking it. IMHO, that's a bit crazy.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Duped - 11/11/10 01:54 PM
I just finished reading a book a couple weeks ago called, "Leadership and Self Deception". It's a modern parable style story. There's a husband/wife illustration in the story that goes through how the husband set the wife up to be at fault; the wife was doing the same thing but the book didn't go into her side of the story very much.

I think you'll see the dynamic that you and your husband have going. I wouldn't recommend you have him read it; he already feels pressure from Steve that he's at fault and he's to blame (which he is - but that's not working to fix the core of the problem right now). But it will help you start to break your patterns of blaming him. It may be scary to take this step because if you let him off the hook and start owning how you set him up, then he gets to do the thing that requires you to sacrifice instead of him. Sacrifice is a destructive thing in your marriage. For either of you.

I realize that the travel thing is non-negotiable. With the exception of traveling to a manufacturing facility for training, I don't see why a car salesman ever has to leave home. EVER. He's not the one hired by the company to go out to auctions to find used cars. So he has no reason to travel. He's volunteering for extra duty because he has discovered that he has an emotional need to travel. It's the only way to explain how his taker took over and forced you to sacrifice your emotional need for him to NOT travel.

He can't speak to his desires because you are so very against it. He feels he can't be true to his aspirations because you've taken it off the table. He fears divorce because of children and love for you, but that love becomes less and less with each sacrifice he makes.

So while travel is non-negotiable for you, what is it for him? Do you love him enough to dare ask the question and be civil as you discuss the root causes of this betrayal?

A wise man speaking to a very large congregation about marriage said that we try to give others the benefit of a doubt, yet ascribe the worst of intentions to our spouse. "Assume the Good and Doubt the Bad".


I think if you want to save your marriage, you should find a way to ascribe the best of intentions to your husband instead of the worst. Even if his behavior seems to have the worst of intentions toward you, it may be that his own emotional needs which you are not meeting, either by intention or ignorance - have gone unmet for so long that his taker is in full control.

If you want to recover your marriage, it's time you start looking at the withdrawals your own needs are making on him. Start from there and see what happens.

The tough thing right now is the lack of ability to POJA on this issue puts you at odds with each other's emotional needs. It requires one of you to sacrifice. Right now, your husband seems to be at an emotional extremity, so he forced the sacrifice you are asking him to make, back on you by taking the choice out of your hands.

Sacrifice puts your marriage at risk. Neither of you should sacrifice.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 02:50 PM
I've already read the book, and he is reading it now. He's about halfway through it.

I have asked him why he volunteers to travel. After denying that he actually does volunteer (if it's not required, how can it be anything but voluntary? I don't know why he doesn't seem to understand that), he has said things from "I deserve it!" to "I had no choice! What do you want me to do, work at McDonalds?" But according to him, even staff members at Mickey's must travel, which is so mind-blowingly ridiculous, they don't send 16-year-olds out of state to learn to use the fry vat!

It is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with him when he throws out ridiculous stuff like that. Last night he said, "I'm going to do things that may look like I'm not taking you into consideration, but I don't take you for granted." What do you say to THAT? My translation is: I'm going to continue to hurt you in premeditated ways that I know are going to hurt you, but I appreciate you sticking around and taking care of me.

Selfish!

I do NOT get the mentality that you should just do whatever you want because you have some sort of entitlement complex. That's all fine and well for the single person with no children, but once you marry and have children it is cruel, heartless and clearly a path to self-destruction and the destruction of your family.

Travel is not an emotional need because him traveling does not create love for me. He does not love me more when he travels, he enjoys HIMSELF, perhaps, but it does not make him love me so therefore is not an EN.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Duped - 11/11/10 02:56 PM
CWMI:

You were gone for a while, and I am glad you enjoyed (?) your trip to Naw'Leans.

7 cars in 10 years? Then you say he sells cars, that would not sound that unusual. But, you say he took this job in the dealership, so he just started selling cars, right?

I could have a new car every year. Flamingo has had 4 in her life time, I have had over 12 now. At one time, she still owned three of them.... She likes to keep stuff, and I like to trade them in. I have had basically the same car for 8 years now. It suits are purposes. And I had the oppurtunity when the old one was wrecked last year to get whatever I wanted, and I bought the same type of car again. I have quashed my desires for something exciting, for what made sense for the long term for my family. That is something new for me.

With that, Is your husband GOOD at his new job? Its not part of this question, whether he travels, or doesn't come home, but is he GOOD at it? Can he move METAL?

Does he make a good salary?
Does he spend quality time with the kids?
Does he do anything right?
Has ANYTHING changed about him in the past two years?

Should you spend more time with SH? You shouldn't, your Husband Should. Let him talk to SH a number of times without your input. Maybe he won't feel "maniupulated" becasue he will just be able to discuss what HE feels he needs to discuss with SH. And maybe, SH can get your H more fully on board with giving you the active consideration of what is important to you.

Knowing what is going on in his life, as soon as possible after he finds out, so that you two can make plans where it impacts things going on in your life.

It really not the travel. Its the lack of consideration about what HE is doing and how it affects you. He learns on the 2nd of the month that he needs to go overnight on the 15th. He tells you on the 14th. So, you had no time to be prepared, and since there was X event in your life on the 15th, the support you thought you had isn't there. And there is nothing you can do about it, and you have to scramble to fill the hole. And your H goes to his travel skipping lightly...

And that builds resentment in you...

If the travel is a deal breaker for you, then you have to break the deal. And get D'ed.

If you felt that he gave you the consideration FIRST, over everything ELSE, and then his job, his travel, and his cars, then, you might actually have a shot at a good marriage. I think SH can help with this. Let your H talk to SH, and let them talk a number of times, and let SH guide him and show him a new way of doing things. A way that makes your H comfortable when the "man" imposes a work issue on him, and also you, becasue your H works WITH you, and not seemingly against you.

And one thing that Flamingo learned after 45 years. You can choose your attitude. Are drinks expensive when you travel? Yep. So you search for bargains, or bring your own in the future. In N.O. dirty and smuty? Yep. So, you reserach MORE the places you are going, or realize that this isn't the place for you, and find something else to do. Was your H an A-hole? Maybe, but what was he presented with? A happy person, or an angry person? Choose your attitude.

LG
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Travel is not an emotional need because him traveling does not create love for me. He does not love me more when he travels, he enjoys HIMSELF, perhaps, but it does not make him love me so therefore is not an EN.


While it may not be an EN in the typical sense of the word, it could still be a need for your H. The EN's, as I understand it, are needs that can be met by our spouses, but that doesn't mean those are the only needs that we have.

For me, writing is a need. It fulfills me, gives my life a sense of purpose, helps me understand the world around me. It may not be an EN that my H can fulfill, but it is still a need, and he can support that need by supporting my writing, giving me time to devote to my art, encouraging me, etc.

I do not believe that the top 10 EN's are the only things that we as human beings need in life, and I don't think the Harley's intended them to be.

Have you asked your H what needs are being fulfilled by traveling? What this ability to travel adds to his life? Maybe trying to understand why he wants to continue to travel will help you to discover a solution to this impasse you two seem to be stuck in.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 03:23 PM
He's been in the car business the whole time I've known him, LG.

I did go with a good attitude. My attitude failed a bit after a few things happened--he didn't do anything about getting us from the airport to the hotel, so I researched it and found that we had three options other than renting a car: 1. taxi ($34 for two, additional $14 each for other four, each way) 2. shuttle (flat $38 per person round-trip) 3. public bus ($4 each, round trip). He agreed to just take the bus (and I even got the bus driver to let us off at a non-stop on her loop around the Dome because it was closest to our hotel) and complained and glared at me about it every time it stopped, looking at his watch, saying, "This was a horrible idea. I should have just taken a cab!" Notice the "I" statement? I did.

The first night he and I went out for a little bit, across the street to the casino and then in the downstairs bar. The second night he came back from the seminar and went straight to bed. Never mind that we had plans to go out again. And we're in a hotel room, right? So he made us turn off the lights and the TV, none of the rest of us had a choice but to go to bed, too. At 7pm. I wasn't about to take the kids out at night, or go out by myself.

The next day we left, we missed the bus because he went across the street to the bathroom, so we had to wait for another one, about 20 minutes. That was my fault, too. He stood away from us with his arms crossed, pissed. Self-deception, yep!

I LOVE the idea of him talking to SH by himself. Many of our conversations were like that, we'd both chat for a while with him then Steve would talk to H alone. H didn't like that, felt he was 'targeted' as 'the problem'. Well...
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

He's not controlling toward me in telling what to do or not do. He's been quite pushy on the DS, but I think Steve pretty well resolved that issue. If there's a control issue at all, I would say it is that H wants to be in complete control of everything that he does without having to consider how that may affect anyone else.

This is classic control.

Each partner feels that they know what is "right" for the relationship. One or both act on this well intentioned, but misguided belief.


He feels controlled, he acts out in passive ways. (the bathroom, the job itself, the 7:30 lights out)
You feel that you are NOT incontrol of your life, due to choices he makes. You push, he pushes, the escallation begins.

Here is a hint. WHENEVER you hear namecalling, sarcasm or putting down the other partner in a relationship, there is an issue of control being exherted <- sp?.
That statement sent my marriage/myself into a total spin.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:23 PM
So what do you suggest I do, Barbie?
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:25 PM
By the way......
There is nothing wrong with being a alpha or passive person.

I have often been called "Martha Stewart on crack!" I thought I was doing GOOD! (I admit, I kind of still do.)

In healthy relationships, partners accept and encourage this differnce. They compliment each other.
But when the balance gets out of whack-- control issues can tailspin into abusive behaviors.

The job and travel issues may not be the underlaying cause of your current problems. Just think about that for awhile.

Also, in control related issues, it is never one partner over the other. NO one is submissive all of the time. I think both parties share the alpha role. Sometimes you can get a tug of war.

Just my honest opinion

Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:33 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
[quote=CWMI]
For me, writing is a need. It fulfills me, gives my life a sense of purpose, helps me understand the world around me. It may not be an EN that my H can fulfill, but it is still a need, and he can support that need by supporting my writing, giving me time to devote to my art, encouraging me, etc.

I do not believe that the top 10 EN's are the only things that we as human beings need in life, and I don't think the Harley's intended them to be.

Have you asked your H what needs are being fulfilled by traveling? What this ability to travel adds to his life? Maybe trying to understand why he wants to continue to travel will help you to discover a solution to this impasse you two seem to be stuck in.


I have an artistic need as well. It's my outlet, how I cope with life.

BUT, I don't let my artistic needs come before marital needs. My artistic needs are only elevated when they help fulfill the other emotional needs. For example, with one of my artistic outlets, I can make twice as much money per hour as my husband can. So, in this case, my artistic need is elevated because it also provides FS.

Or, we might attend an artistic event as part of RC. But, this is POJA'd. If my husband didn't agree, I wouldn't push for it, or even attend events on my own, even if he didn't agree.

Otherwise, the marital needs (and my kids needs) have higher priority over my artistic needs.

And, actually, pursuing my artistic needs in the wrong time or place can actually allow others to begin to fulfill my emotional needs, rather than my husband.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:43 PM
Inrecovery: I agree completely that artistic needs cannot come before marital needs. The problem I see for CWMI's H is, this need he has to travel (and I'm not sure that this is even a need for him, so I'm going off the assumption that it may be) is not respected or supported at all. There is no real way for him to POJA a situation where CWMI has already clearly stated that she is not okay with him traveling for business, anywhere, any time.

It would be the same as my H saying he isn't okay with me writing, ever again. It's a deal breaker for him. If I continue to write, then the M is over.

If traveling means as much to CWMI's H as writing does to me (and I have no idea if this is true or not) then there is no win-win situation that I can see here. Either he gives up something he dearly loves (traveling) or he loses his M.

Honestly, I would have a very difficult time accepting this if my H gave me a similar ultimatum, mostly because he knows how much my writing means to me, and to ask me to give up something that is so important to me would tell me that he doesn't care very much about me or really understand anything about me at all.

All I asked CWMI to do was to consider what it is that her H gets out of traveling. Try to understand why this might be so important to him. Maybe it isn't even that important to him at all, and that's what she would discover. But I get the feeling that she hasn't really talked to him about his feelings regarding this. I get the feeling he's afraid to really share his feelings with her because he already knows what her reaction is going to be.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:44 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
Originally Posted By: writer1
[quote=CWMI]
For me, writing is a need. It fulfills me, gives my life a sense of purpose, helps me understand the world around me. It may not be an EN that my H can fulfill, but it is still a need, and he can support that need by supporting my writing, giving me time to devote to my art, encouraging me, etc.

I do not believe that the top 10 EN's are the only things that we as human beings need in life, and I don't think the Harley's intended them to be.

Have you asked your H what needs are being fulfilled by traveling? What this ability to travel adds to his life? Maybe trying to understand why he wants to continue to travel will help you to discover a solution to this impasse you two seem to be stuck in.


I have an artistic need as well. It's my outlet, how I cope with life.

BUT, I don't let my artistic needs come before marital needs. My artistic needs are only elevated when they help fulfill the other emotional needs. For example, with one of my artistic outlets, I can make twice as much money per hour as my husband can. So, in this case, my artistic need is elevated because it also provides FS.

Or, we might attend an artistic event as part of RC. But, this is POJA'd. If my husband didn't agree, I wouldn't push for it, or even attend events on my own, even if he didn't agree.

Otherwise, the marital needs (and my kids needs) have higher priority over my artistic needs.

And, actually, pursuing my artistic needs in the wrong time or place can actually allow others to begin to fulfill my emotional needs, rather than my husband.






Exactly. If you're putting your personal needs, not matter how noble or moral they may be, over the needs of your marriage, why are you married? Why bother torturing another person by shoving your personal fulfillment on them against their will?
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
Originally Posted By: writer1
[quote=CWMI]
For me, writing is a need. It fulfills me, gives my life a sense of purpose, helps me understand the world around me. It may not be an EN that my H can fulfill, but it is still a need, and he can support that need by supporting my writing, giving me time to devote to my art, encouraging me, etc.

I do not believe that the top 10 EN's are the only things that we as human beings need in life, and I don't think the Harley's intended them to be.

Have you asked your H what needs are being fulfilled by traveling? What this ability to travel adds to his life? Maybe trying to understand why he wants to continue to travel will help you to discover a solution to this impasse you two seem to be stuck in.


I have an artistic need as well. It's my outlet, how I cope with life.

BUT, I don't let my artistic needs come before marital needs. My artistic needs are only elevated when they help fulfill the other emotional needs. For example, with one of my artistic outlets, I can make twice as much money per hour as my husband can. So, in this case, my artistic need is elevated because it also provides FS.

Or, we might attend an artistic event as part of RC. But, this is POJA'd. If my husband didn't agree, I wouldn't push for it, or even attend events on my own, even if he didn't agree.

Otherwise, the marital needs (and my kids needs) have higher priority over my artistic needs.

And, actually, pursuing my artistic needs in the wrong time or place can actually allow others to begin to fulfill my emotional needs, rather than my husband.






Exactly. If you're putting your personal needs, not matter how noble or moral they may be, over the needs of your marriage, why are you married? Why bother torturing another person by shoving your personal fulfillment on them against their will?


Aren't you kind of shoving your will onto your H as well?

Again, I see no desire from you to sit down with your H and actually listen to how he feels about this. You seem to have no consideration for his feelings at all, and then you get angry when he doesn't consider yours.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Inrecovery: I agree completely that artistic needs cannot come before marital needs. The problem I see for CWMI's H is, this need he has to travel (and I'm not sure that this is even a need for him, so I'm going off the assumption that it may be) is not respected or supported at all. There is no real way for him to POJA a situation where CWMI has already clearly stated that she is not okay with him traveling for business, anywhere, any time.

It would be the same as my H saying he isn't okay with me writing, ever again. It's a deal breaker for him. If I continue to write, then the M is over.

If traveling means as much to CWMI's H as writing does to me (and I have no idea if this is true or not) then there is no win-win situation that I can see here. Either he gives up something he dearly loves (traveling) or he loses his M.

Honestly, I would have a very difficult time accepting this if my H gave me a similar ultimatum, mostly because he knows how much my writing means to me, and to ask me to give up something that is so important to me would tell me that he doesn't care very much about me or really understand anything about me at all.

All I asked CWMI to do was to consider what it is that her H gets out of traveling. Try to understand why this might be so important to him. Maybe it isn't even that important to him at all, and that's what she would discover. But I get the feeling that she hasn't really talked to him about his feelings regarding this. I get the feeling he's afraid to really share his feelings with her because he already knows what her reaction is going to be.


See, I don't agree. If travel is a need, why is Business travel the only way for Mr CWMIs need to be met? If travel is a need, why isn't he whisking CWMI and their family on vacations, long weekend get-aways, etc? Why wouldn't Mr. CWMI's need for travel be part of RC?

Now, I'm presuming that your husband knew about your writing before you got married. What if he had said "Writer, I support you 100% on your writing," and then after marriage and children said "Nope, sorry Writer. For what ever reason, I'm not supporting you on your writing anymore. Oh, and I'm not sure I really ever supported your writing 100% of the time. I just went along with it in the beginning, because, well, I did. And now, I actually don't think I ever really liked you writing. Opps, I guess I misrepresented myself. Too bad, so sad"

Then, writer, what would you do?

Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:10 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
See, I don't agree. If travel is a need, why is Business travel the only way for Mr CWMIs need to be met? If travel is a need, why isn't he whisking CWMI and their family on vacations, long weekend get-aways, etc? Why wouldn't Mr. CWMI's need for travel be part of RC?


Exactly.

You may think you "need" something, but if you are getting it over the objections of your spouse, you are getting it at their expense, and costing yourself the chance of having a marriage of passionate love.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:12 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1

Aren't you kind of shoving your will onto your H as well?

Again, I see no desire from you to sit down with your H and actually listen to how he feels about this. You seem to have no consideration for his feelings at all, and then you get angry when he doesn't consider yours.


I am not demanding that he tolerate my solo activities that he disapproves of, writer. That's what I mean by shoving your personal fulfillment down an unwilling partner's throat.

I'm asking him to place the precaution in our marriage of not spending the night away from home. Do you think that is me shoving my will on him??? Oh no, watch out for that controlling woman, she expects care and protection! Oh no! MOST women don't need that! /sarcasm
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow

See, I don't agree. If travel is a need, why is Business travel the only way for Mr CWMIs need to be met? If travel is a need, why isn't he whisking CWMI and their family on vacations, long weekend get-aways, etc? Why wouldn't Mr. CWMI's need for travel be part of RC?

Now, I'm presuming that your husband knew about your writing before you got married. What if he had said "Writer, I support you 100% on your writing," and then after marriage and children said "Nope, sorry Writer. For what ever reason, I'm not supporting you on your writing anymore. Oh, and I'm not sure I really ever supported your writing 100% of the time. I just went along with it in the beginning, because, well, I did. And now, I actually don't think I ever really liked you writing. Opps, I guess I misrepresented myself. Too bad, so sad"

Then, writer, what would you do?



I'm not saying his need for travel couldn't be fulfilled by family travel. Ideally, it could. Maybe this is something they could explore.

In the case of CWMI's H, he probably could stay in the same line of work and not travel as well. Some occupations, such as my previous example of an airline pilot, that simply wouldn't be possible. If it was his dream to be a pilot, and his wife wasn't happy about him traveling, then some sort of sacrifice would have to be made by one spouse, and sacrifice is never good. CWMI's H has a job that doesn't seem to require travel, and yet he chooses to do it anyway. I don't know why, but I think it is something she should explore. What is he getting out of traveling for business? Is there some other way to fulfill this need that would be mutually agreeable to both of them?

As far as your other question, yes my H did know about my writing before I married him, and he did support that. If he changed his mind now and said he would no longer support it, or that he never really did, then our M probably wouldn't have much of a chance at succeeding. It isn't something I'm willing to give up. Luckily, my H knows this and appreciates it. My love of writing is one of the things about me that he loves, because it is one of the most integral things that make me who I am.

That doesn't mean that we don't have to POJA certain things about my writing. We POJA lots of things: writing time, budget for books and other supplies, if/when I attend conferences and other writing related events.

But a flat-out, no, I don't like this, I don't want you doing it, I won't ever agree to it under any circumstances doesn't really leave itself open much to the POJA, does it?
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:18 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: writer1

Aren't you kind of shoving your will onto your H as well?

Again, I see no desire from you to sit down with your H and actually listen to how he feels about this. You seem to have no consideration for his feelings at all, and then you get angry when he doesn't consider yours.


I am not demanding that he tolerate my solo activities that he disapproves of, writer. That's what I mean by shoving your personal fulfillment down an unwilling partner's throat.

I'm asking him to place the precaution in our marriage of not spending the night away from home. Do you think that is me shoving my will on him??? Oh no, watch out for that controlling woman, she expects care and protection! Oh no! MOST women don't need that! /sarcasm


Actually, the sarcasm is perhaps one of your biggest enemies. I don't think it's so much WHAT you are asking of your H, but HOW you are asking it. You come across as very negative, attacking, and defensive here. If you are approaching the issue with your H in the same manner, then that may be half of your problem right there.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:23 PM
We do travel together.

Business travel makes him feel important and relevant. Are there other ways to get that feeling? Absolutely, but he's like a petulant child (nods to barbie, I see what I did there) who sets his sights on the one and only way and digs in.

Horse with blinders.

Uncreative.

Writer, I think you are highly discounting the fact that I told him before we got married that I could never be with a traveling man. He never traveled before we got married, and the job he had did not require it. So add up: 1)I was open and honest about this need 2)It was not an issue when we married, and 3) he is now forcing the decision on me to D or put up with it.

I am not at fault here.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:28 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Writer, I think you are highly discounting the fact that I told him before we got married that I could never be with a traveling man. He never traveled before we got married, and the job he had did not require it. So add up: 1)I was open and honest about this need 2)It was not an issue when we married, and 3) he is now forcing the decision on me to D or put up with it.

I am not at fault here.


I didn't know that you had clearly stated that travel was not something that you would tolerate before you even got married.

And I never said you were at fault. I just think that the way you are handling the situation is making your H feel very defensive. I see a lot of DJ's in your posts about your H. Certainly, he can see them too, and I don't think it's helping the situation at all.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1

Actually, the sarcasm is perhaps one of your biggest enemies. I don't think it's so much WHAT you are asking of your H, but HOW you are asking it. You come across as very negative, attacking, and defensive here. If you are approaching the issue with your H in the same manner, then that may be half of your problem right there.


Sarcasm is a device to make a point.

I have approached this problem in the best manner possible: via third party (Steve) after my own efforts were unsuccessful. Have you read the OP? Do you know why this is an issue right now?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:31 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Writer, I think you are highly discounting the fact that I told him before we got married that I could never be with a traveling man. He never traveled before we got married, and the job he had did not require it. So add up: 1)I was open and honest about this need 2)It was not an issue when we married, and 3) he is now forcing the decision on me to D or put up with it.

I am not at fault here.


I didn't know that you had clearly stated that travel was not something that you would tolerate before you even got married.

And I never said you were at fault. I just think that the way you are handling the situation is making your H feel very defensive. I see a lot of DJ's in your posts about your H. Certainly, he can see them too, and I don't think it's helping the situation at all.


Well I hope it sheds a new light on the situation I am in.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:33 PM


I'm wondering, though, CWMI-what your plan of action is?
See, because with my husband, if he behaves in a way that's a deal breaker-well, I have to follow through on my consequences. Otherwise my word is just as good as an addicts.

So, if your husband traveling is really a dealbreaker, what's preventing you from following through on your boundaries? Have you made an appointment with SH to get started on a Plan B?

Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Business travel makes him feel important and relevant. Are there other ways to get that feeling? Absolutely, but he's like a petulant child (nods to barbie, I see what I did there) who sets his sights on the one and only way and digs in.


Okay, you see what you did. An obvious DJ. Certainly not something Steve would have told you to do. So are you going to stop doing it now that you recognize it? Because if you're saying things like this to your H, it isn't going to get you anywhere, no matter who is in the right on the original issue.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:35 PM
CWMI, your H knows how you feel about the travel...this is nothing new. What are you willing to live with if he is unwilling to protect you and your marriage? That is the bottom line.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
[quote=writer1]
I'm wondering, though, CWMI-what your plan of action is?
See, because with my husband, if he behaves in a way that's a deal breaker-well, I have to follow through on my consequences. Otherwise my word is just as good as an addicts.

So, if your husband traveling is really a dealbreaker, what's preventing you from following through on your boundaries?


This is what I don't understand either. I don't get the feeling that it really is a deal-breaker. He's been traveling for work for quite some time now, and she's still there. Her actions are showing her H that it isn't a deal-breaker at all. She may complain about it, but she isn't going to follow through with anything.

If my H said, either stop writing or it's over, then I'd pretty much say, okay, see ya. I'm sure you would do the same thing if your H started up with his addiction again. Those are deal-breakers for us. Right now, traveling for work really isn't a deal-breaker for CWMI. Her actions prove that. And her H knows he can continue doing it without suffering any real consequences for his actions.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: barbiecat
[quote=CWMI]Each partner feels that they know what is "right" for the relationship. One or both act on this well intentioned, but misguided belief.

WHENEVER you hear namecalling, sarcasm or putting down the other partner in a relationship, there is an issue of control being exerted <- sp?.
That statement sent my marriage/myself into a total spin.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 05:54 PM
He took me with him, which was the deal before this new job, that's why I'm still here. I'm horribly nervous about next time. I don't know when it will be, or if it will be, this was a completely wasteful trip that could have been easily replaced by giving each employee a copy of "The Fred Factor."

None of you who have not left cannot say for certain what is your deal-breaker. Writer, I told you before to read up on Lydia Sigourney, her H told her to stop writing, she has a very interesting story, and although there is a lot of deception involved in what she did, she managed to meet her H's needs while still pursuing her craft on the sly and rescued her family because of it after her H's business failed. It's a very interesting story that speaks to the hypothetical situation you've been presented, and how a person can unobtrusively chase dreams. Her H no longer supported the time she put in and how that affected her domestic duties, and he resented her growing fame. So she upped her DS, wrote when she could do so without affecting the meeting of her H's needs, and published anonymously. She lied, basically, but I still think it's a great story of creatively 'having it all'.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

None of you who have not left cannot say for certain what is your deal-breaker. Writer, I told you before to read up on Lydia Sigourney, her H told her to stop writing, she has a very interesting story, and although there is a lot of deception involved in what she did, she managed to meet her H's needs while still pursuing her craft on the sly and rescued her family because of it after her H's business failed. It's a very interesting story that speaks to the hypothetical situation you've been presented, and how a person can unobtrusively chase dreams. Her H no longer supported the time she put in and how that affected her domestic duties, and he resented her growing fame. So she upped her DS, wrote when she could do so without affecting the meeting of her H's needs, and published anonymously. She lied, basically, but I still think it's a great story of creatively 'having it all'.


Well, I can read up on it, but I don't think that lying is the best approach. Essentially, she was still doing the thing her H didn't want her to do. If an addict starts drinking again, but he only does it away from home and manages to keep it from his spouse, he is still an addict. I don't buy into the adage that what you don't know can't hurt you.

Creatively "having it all" means (for me at least) being able to successfully meld all aspects of my life - family, marriage, writing,etc. - in a way so that none of the elements detracts from, or suffers in the hands of, another. It isn't easy, but I think it is possible. I may not always succeed at it, but I certainly try.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: barbiecat
Originally Posted By: barbiecat
[quote=CWMI]Each partner feels that they know what is "right" for the relationship. One or both act on this well intentioned, but misguided belief.

WHENEVER you hear namecalling, sarcasm or putting down the other partner in a relationship, there is an issue of control being exerted <- sp?.
That statement sent my marriage/myself into a total spin.


Is there something else you wanted to put here? If this is your answer to my question about what you suggest I do, I'll need more active verbs.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1

Well, I can read up on it, but I don't think that lying is the best approach. Essentially, she was still doing the thing her H didn't want her to do. If an addict starts drinking again, but he only does it away from home and manages to keep it from his spouse, he is still an addict. I don't buy into the adage that what you don't know can't hurt you.

Creatively "having it all" means (for me at least) being able to successfully meld all aspects of my life - family, marriage, writing,etc. - in a way so that none of the elements detracts from, or suffers in the hands of, another. It isn't easy, but I think it is possible. I may not always succeed at it, but I certainly try.


I don't think lying is a good approach either!

I totally agree with the bold. You seem to think I should willing to suffer for my H's business travel. Am I wrong?
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

I totally agree with the bold. You seem to think I should willing to suffer for my H's business travel. Am I wrong?


Absolutely not! I just think you may need a different approach, because the one you are using now doesn't seem to be working.

You need to set up some boundaries and then stick to them. You can say, I am not okay with you traveling for business, and if you continue to do so, then this is what I am going to do. Then, stick to it. Right now, your H knows your boundaries are weak. He knows you don't mean what you say.

Is your H willing to counsel with Steve again? If so, that would be a good place to start.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI


None of you who have not left cannot say for certain what is your deal-breaker.


Well, CWMI, I haven't left because my husband hasn't relapsed. So, I have no reason to leave.

I do know for certain that I will not stay in a marriage where my husband can pose a threat to my physical health. I feel very strongly that no man is worth me getting sick and dying over. I know I will not stay in a marriage where my husband can be arrested for his behavior.

But, if he does relapse, I'll be able to take the kids and move out as soon as I can get a place to rent. When I considered moving out the first time, I had no problems finding a place to rent over the course of the first few days after d-day. I've already spoken to a lawyer, so I know how long the divorce process will take. I have the numbers of support folks (my old therapist and the 12 step group for spouses). I know when meeting times and locations are for my 12 step group.

I've got a plan in place to get me and the kids through about the first 4-6 months after my husband relapses.

I hope to heck I never have to use it. But, should that trigger be pulled I'm ready.

And, I've been very upfront with my husband about my response his relapse. He knows where the money for setting up another household and retaining a lawyer exists. He knows I've seen a lawyer. My therapist has her office quite literally in the room next to his.

We are done-so very stick a fork in it done- with any secrets, lies, misinformation, deception or what have you in our marriage.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

None of you who have not left cannot say for certain what is your deal-breaker.


And I haven't left (nor do I have so much as an inkling of a plan in place to do so) because my H has never given any indication that he would ask me to stop writing. He's very supportive of my writing. He's often the one who has to remind me that it's time to go write, since I tend to be a bit of a procrastinator.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:46 PM
Did everyone at his company go to NO? Was it a team building exercise? I can imagine "the new guy" isn't going to want to refuse to attend.

Or was this a reward for good performance? Did only the best performers get invited? In that case, you asking him not to go may feel to him as undercutting his accomplishment.

Again, not saying you should accept business travel. You feel how you feel and you are entitled to set your boundaries wherever you need them to be.

But I can imagine several scenarios where he would feel a substantial lack of support for his career. Doesn't mean he is entitled to ignore your feelings. Just saying that you need to be mindful fo his, as well.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 06:59 PM
Nobody else from his dealership went, hold. It was basically a 'how to not be an a-hole seminar', so may be they did pick him special, lol. Have you read Fred?
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 07:04 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: writer1

Actually, the sarcasm is perhaps one of your biggest enemies. I don't think it's so much WHAT you are asking of your H, but HOW you are asking it. You come across as very negative, attacking, and defensive here. If you are approaching the issue with your H in the same manner, then that may be half of your problem right there.


Sarcasm is a device to make a point.


CWMI, trust me, sarcasm is a painful disrespectful judgment. There are other more pleasing ways to make whatever points you want to make. I hope I learn them and make them into habits some day in the near future.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 07:14 PM
Markos, I have tried plain English. I have tried logic. I have tried 'feeling' statements. I have tried SH.

I'm out of try.

I tend to be a bit more abrupt with people here who have missed pertinent information when doling out advice, I know this, I get sick of being made out to be the bad guy here when I'm not the one being deceptive or uncaring.

I care very much that my H finds his life fulfilling. I don't want some rote guy who lives at my whim, and I don't want to be that girl who lives at his. MB has, imho, the BEST program for bringing out the best in both spouses without any of it being at the expense of the other. That's all I want.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 07:28 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, I have tried plain English. I have tried logic. I have tried 'feeling' statements. I have tried SH.

I'm out of try.


I know that feeling, CWMI, and I'm just here to tell you it still doesn't justify any abusive behaviors, including disrespectful judgments.

Quote:
I tend to be a bit more abrupt with people here who have missed pertinent information when doling out advice,


Well, I know that feeling, too. smile And it is technically true that the person you need to spare from all DJs is your husband. But practicing with other people helps. And when you start to view DJs as abuse you start asking yourself when it is ever okay to use them on anyone. (I don't know the answer to that question. Prisca has a saying on that topic that I find delightful: "But some folks in life are just crying out for disrespectful judgment!")

Quote:
I know this, I get sick of being made out to be the bad guy here when I'm not the one being deceptive or uncaring.


I don't think you are the bad guy at all. I think it is just about as straightforward as you are describing it: you thought you had an agreement with your husband, and it doesn't seem to be working out like you expected. I believe you (and he) should get what you want out of your marriage.

I think that just like from the beginning you will always be getting some advice here that does not line up with the Marriage Builders concepts. So keep them in mind always as you scrutinize everything.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 07:45 PM
CWMI, I'm sorry I didn't read every one of the 200+ posts on your thread before offering advice. It gets a little overwhelming to log in and see hundreds of new posts on various threads from the last time I logged in yesterday. I have a very active 2-year-old and a lot going on in my own life, so it just isn't possible for me (or probably most others) to spend hours on the site everyday reading every single post. But if you are only looking for advice from those who can, then I will stay off your thread.

I don't think I offered any advice that wasn't inline with MB principles. I certainly didn't do so intentionally.

I wish you all the luck in the world and I truly hope things work out for you. Just remember, you can't control someone else's actions. The only person you can control is yourself. You can control how you respond to your H's actions, but you cannot control him.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/11/10 07:51 PM
The trouble is, even the best decisions reached by POJA will sometimes crumble.

And then it is time to renegotiate... If it is not possible to POJA a new arrangement successfully, then it's time to consider whether or not you can sustain the marriage.

Fwiw, I still believe that your husband may have actually thought this job would not require travel, and that spouses would be welcome. Didn't you even say you had an e-mail where his new boss said one thing and later did another?

Further, didn't you say your husband had received a promotion, and this is why he is traveling?

I say all this, not to ask you to change anything... but because I hope that no matter what happens, you can see that your husband may not have been lying to you. I guess it falls along the lines of "thinking the best" about him.

Ultimately, you guys may not be able to work this out. You may not be able to reach a new agreement that you both can be enthusiastic about, and it may lead to Plan B or even Plan D.

If that happens, I would be sad for both of you.

In the past, I have suggested that you consider getting help so that being "left alone" is not so devastating for you... In that way, perhaps you would feel that travel once of twice a year is not worth ending a marriage over. You did not like that advice.

I wonder if there is any way for you guys to come up with any sort of agreement that doesn't mean him either changing jobs again, or refusing this promotion, or entirely ending travel, if that isn't something HE wants to do.

You don't want him to travel.
He doesn't want to give up travel.
You want him to do anything (including changing careers, avoiding promotions, etc) in order to avoid travel.
He doesn't want to change a career in which he is successful.

You don't know what is going into his feelings about all of this. Perhaps he is afraid he won't be able to make the same kind of money doing something else. I know that this doesn't matter to you, but it DOES matter to him.

Perhaps he is sincerely convinced that other positions involve travel.

You might be interested to know that there IS travel requirements for upper management at McDonald's corporation. And your husband simply doesn't strike me as the kind of man who would be able to remain at a low level. He is an upward-mobile kind of guy, and that would follow him wherever he went. He is successful.

I don't know, cwmi.

This may really be beyond the capabilities of this board. What kind of timeline do you have for reconnecting with the Harley's?
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
I don't think I offered any advice that wasn't inline with MB principles.


For the record, I don't have anyone specific in mind in my remark above on this subject. All of the posts on this thread are very much a blur to me and I don't remember who said what.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 08:15 PM
Upper Mickey management, yes. I used to work for a chain I'll call crapplebees, lol. I was offered a position with them after a year employment that would require travel. Most of it would be revamping their training program and working with a crew that I already was helping in the corporate office...but I was a bartender. I turned it down. I was 22. I didn't want the disjointed life then, I don't want the disjointed life now.

He was not given a promotion, he has simply moved up the product line in the same position.

Quote:
In the past, I have suggested that you consider getting help so that being "left alone" is not so devastating for you... In that way, perhaps you would feel that travel once of twice a year is not worth ending a marriage over. You did not like that advice.


Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 08:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Telly
The trouble is, even the best decisions reached by POJA will sometimes crumble.



Especially those reached without RH. Those are doomed from the start. Agree?
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: Telly
The trouble is, even the best decisions reached by POJA will sometimes crumble.



Especially those reached without RH. Those are doomed from the start. Agree?


Yes, those crumble, too, but those are not the best decisions Telly was speaking of. Those are some of the lousy decisions.

Even decisions made with enthusiasm and honesty are made by people who may feel different later. I asked Dr. Harley about this recently, and he said:

Quote:
Markos:

The POJA provides an interesting solution to the problem of unfulfilled agreements: It encourages spouses to let each other off the hook when one spouse wants to bail at the last minute. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse" focuses on the doing, not the planning. The reason, of course, is that if you care about each other, you should not gain at your spouse's expense. At the time of the original agreement, it may have seemed as if both spouses would gain, but as the even draws closer one spouse may see a problem. When that happens, the agreement should be scrapped and a new agreement, with the problem acknowledged, should be negotiated.

The point of the POJA is that everything you do should benefit both of you. And if you can't think of a way for that to happen, you should do nothing until a solution is found.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


Here's the link, for anyone who can get there:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...993#Post2439993
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 08:54 PM
Do nothing. So it is reasonable in MB parlance for my H to not travel if it does not meet my enthusiastic agreement, even if I previously agreed to accompany him?

And that does not make me a controlling witch monster?

Hm...

Interesting.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Quote:
In the past, I have suggested that you consider getting help so that being "left alone" is not so devastating for you... In that way, perhaps you would feel that travel once of twice a year is not worth ending a marriage over. You did not like that advice.


Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?


I don't think you are out of line wanting your husband not to travel without you. That's Dr. Harley's own standard! No nights apart, anyway; I believe he has no problem with day trips apart, so long as all the other conditions for a good marriage are followed, of course, like the POUA, the POJA, and the PORH.

Demands, disrespect, and anger will make it impossible to get this goal achieved long term, of course.

The marriage builders premise is that easier for one of you to change is behavior than for the other to change her emotional response to that behavior. (And vice versa, of course!!!) Now, if you rethink things and it does change an emotional response, that is helpful. But it isn't always easy.

For the record, Prisca hates to be left, too; if she had her way I wouldn't even work outside of our home. (And I'd love that.) She puts up with it only because somebody has to pull in a paycheck, I think. I love that she loves me that much. But I hate that just going to work can be a love bank withdrawal. Mark always says you're going to get stuck with bumps of life like that that make withdrawals no matter what, so you better be making massive deposits every day.

Of course, Prisca and I love to travel. Practically anywhere. She would've loved to tag along with me on a short business trip, even if all she got to do was hole up in a hotel room with all the kids and see me in the afternoons and evenings.

Quote:
This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?


Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 11/11/10 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?


Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 09:25 PM
SH told us that he attended a men's retreat one weekend before our appt, this was following the church group fiasco with GNO. He asked me if I was surprised by that. I said no, that I imagined he had a pretty solid marriage that allowed for that. My H said, "Ah-ha!" SH went on to explain to my H that he would not have gone if his wife had objected to it at all, and that there was a man he knew (it was a church thing) whose marriage was struggling, who was there, and Steve was thinking, man, what are you doing HERE? You should be HOME.

I would not want my H home all the time. I do want him to sleep here. I do not think this is wrong or misguided or controlling.

I'd like some opinions on something else he said last night. He said that it would be easier on him if I got all-out angry when I'm displeased with something he's done. My usual MO of being loving and telling him I love him while telling him what displeases me confuses him and he does not know how to react. He said he thinks I don't love him when I'm complaining, so for me to act as if I do confuses him, and he doesn't know how to react. I told him that I do love him even when I'm unhappy with him. He doesn't understand how that is possible.

He's PD?

He said it is easier for him to feel loving during a disagreement if we do the holding-hands thing during the discussion, but like I said before, it is a long struggle to get him to participate. I know you folks can't diagnose, but this sounds so black-and-white, he doesn't understand how you love someone and still be angry with them? I do not see him being so cut and dried with others, but I rarely ever see him get angry with others, only with me and the kids. It has to be some form of PD to not be able to see how you can be frustrated/angry with someone and still love them.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 09:28 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?


Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?


SW, Telly has *edit* me up one side and down the other and laid the onus in my lap on numerous occasions. She can answer her own questions.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 09:42 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?


Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?


Seriously, what do you expect me to say? "Oh, you're so right, I've been so foolish to think that my feelings mean anything here, you're so correct that I should change them to suit what my H wants, after all, it is all on me, so I'll change my feelings post-haste and thank you so much for pointing out my error! I'm SOOOO happy now!!!111!!!"

lol.

That would be great if I was a didtz.

eta: or ditz. YSMV. smile
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 09:46 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I would not want my H home all the time. I do want him to sleep here. I do not think this is wrong or misguided or controlling.


Prisca would like me home all the time, and I don't think it's wrong or misguided or controlling. I think it's AWESOME!!!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 10:01 PM
smile

My H has said that he thinks I want him home all the time, and he thinks that is horrific. What he thinks I want is for him to be under my magnifying glass 24/7. *red flag*

I wish he saw what I want as wanting HIM, not control of him. I already told him it would drive me nutz to not have an hour a day to myself, I'm a creative type and I need the downtime. I don't want him up my rear. I want him to come home with stories I haven't heard. I want his help with our home, and his warmth when I sleep. Oh lawdy, how selfish I am! lol.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 10:04 PM
Originally Posted By: markos

Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.


How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 11/11/10 10:42 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: markos

Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.


How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.


I know I said I wasn't going to do this, but geez! Do you know how many people you have snarked at, disrespected, and been rude to? And that's just today.

I think pretty much everyone here would like you to have a happy M. This is a MARRIAGE BUILDERS site! I personally would love every single person on the planet to be deeply, passionately, and romantically in love with their spouse, you included.

But the only advice you seem to want is for everyone to tell you how to fix your H and get him to do what you want him to do. Guess what? We can't do that! No one can. The only person who can change your H's behavior is him. We can give you some suggestions on how to deal with his behavior, but we cannot tell you how to change him. In the end, he has to want to change, and so far, he doesn't seem to want to do that. So people are giving you advice on how to deal with his reluctance, and you pretty much spit in our faces, because it actually requires YOU to do something.

Tell me, do you really expect anyone on this board to be able to tell you how to change your H? Are you willing to do anything at all to change something about the way YOU are doing things? Because really, it's only possible to help the person who is here, and in your M, right now, that happens to be you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/11/10 10:51 PM
2.

No.

Yes.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/11/10 11:24 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: markos

Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.


How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.


Well, to some extent that's true, but I have usually found Telly very helpful. She was the first person here to point out to me how I was LB'ing Prisca. I'd hate to see her shot.

And then there's that thought that no behavior deserves abuse as a response. If disrespectful judgments (including sarcasm) really are abuse, are they ever appropriate anywhere? I still don't know.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Duped - 11/11/10 11:38 PM
I think you may be focusing on a symptom and not the root problem. Your husband seems to see any decision of yours that conflicts with his as an unacceptable level of control. Perhaps he likes traveling because then he gets to act like a man with no ties.

You mentioned that even the good Dr. says that your husband has an aspect of OC about him (chairs must be in a certain place, etc). This seems like more the issue than travel. He has the excuse that "this is for work", so nyah, nyah, nyah, can't beat this.

Maybe rather than focusing on the downstream aspects, travel, see if he is willing to focus on the upstream stuff, fear of control. I can see that you are very frustrated, as many would be.

But if you can't help feeling unhappy about the travel, and you aren't willing to go to Plan B, I think you need to find another way around this mountain. Not giving up, or sacrificing, but consider this as a long-term situation that might not get resolved at this moment.

I think you've made a rod for your own back by insisting that your husband take you on all travel instances. Its expensive, and unpleasant as you learned by this trip to NO. Perhaps you can come up with another solution? What happens if the next time he has to travel you or the kids have big things on at uni or school. This doesn't seem like a viable long-term thing.

I do have sympathy with you on this, as do a lot of people. We are trying to come up with solutions, but ultimately you are the one that has to determine a plan of action that is suitable.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Duped - 11/11/10 11:40 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.

I know that you have experienced strong criticism at times on your threads, but I don't think it is fair to say that we are not all on the same team.

I think we are all on MB to help support marriages, yours included. I don't think anyone wants to see your marriage fail.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 11/11/10 11:40 PM
I have said this before and I will say this again. I think CWMI and her husband differ on a crucial characteristic. And I am not convinced their marriage can survive this difference.

I think CWMI holds herself to a very high standard. And she is constantly striving to live up to that standard. And she wants to see her husband striving to live up to that same standard.

I think CWMI's husband feels "good enough is good enough". He is content to stop striving once he gets to good enough. He is content if CWMI stops striving when she gets to good enough. And he wishes that CWMI could be happy with him when he gets to good enough.

But she can't be happy with that. And I do not know how to bridge that gap. Because I don't see CWMI's husband becoming enthusiastic about putting in the effort to reach CWMI's standards. From my perspective, I think the only hope for their marriage is for CWMI to go to Plan B. Because I don't think her husband will step up to the challenge otherwise.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Duped - 11/11/10 11:43 PM
So what is the plan CWMI?
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/12/10 12:18 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I have said this before and I will say this again. I think CWMI and her husband differ on a crucial characteristic. And I am not convinced their marriage can survive this difference.

I think CWMI holds herself to a very high standard. And she is constantly striving to live up to that standard. And she wants to see her husband striving to live up to that same standard.

I think CWMI's husband feels "good enough is good enough". He is content to stop striving once he gets to good enough. He is content if CWMI stops striving when she gets to good enough. And he wishes that CWMI could be happy with him when he gets to good enough.

But she can't be happy with that. And I do not know how to bridge that gap. Because I don't see CWMI's husband becoming enthusiastic about putting in the effort to reach CWMI's standards. From my perspective, I think the only hope for their marriage is for CWMI to go to Plan B. Because I don't think her husband will step up to the challenge otherwise.


That's what I think.

I think it would be grossly unfair if CWMI had to compromise on her standards.

But if she isn't interested in traveling regularly with her husband, and she isn't willing to allow for some travel in their marriage, and (importantly) HER HUSBAND ISN'T WILLING TO STOP...

Than what other option is there?

That's why i keep saying that she may need Dr. H's help again. This seems to be a real standstill, to m.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/12/10 12:20 PM
Quote:
He said that it would be easier on him if I got all-out angry when I'm displeased with something he's done. My usual MO of being loving and telling him I love him while telling him what displeases me confuses him and he does not know how to react. He said he thinks I don't love him when I'm complaining, so for me to act as if I do confuses him, and he doesn't know how to react. I told him that I do love him even when I'm unhappy with him. He doesn't understand how that is possible.

He's PD?


Saying this stuff is working for him, because he is getting what he wants, when he wants it, how he likes it served up. Just like the trip.

You're managing your anxiety, and trying to manage his feelings and reactions. Sounds frustrating! All I can say is, things will continue to get more clear to you. With the exception of the trip, in general, it sounds like things have gotten more peaceful. School's going well, the kids are getting older and easier.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/12/10 12:25 PM
PS. Thank you markos!

CWMI, you and I have butted heads in the past. BUt I stick around here, because I really do want you to succeed.

And I think your marriage really raises the question of what do you do when your spouse seems unwilling to respect your non-negotiables.

Me? I tend to give in to some extent. That's probably not healthy, and I agree it's not completely MB.

That doesnt' mean I don't agree with MB or want peopel to fully implement it.

It DOES mean that I would rather be married to my H than not, even if there are one or two things we can't perfectly resolve. I guess that means to date, the things we can't resolve don't make large enough withdrawals from my LB.

In any case, I am trying to think WITH you. I have apologized in the past when I have gotten angry, or been hurtful, or unhelpful.

If the only way you see your marriage succeeding is for your husband not to travel away from you at all, and your husband (for whatever reason HE thinks is important) is unwilling to accomodate that in his decisions, than what options do you have?

I see only plan B or D. Unless you talk to Dr. H and see what he thinks.

Your H knows how you feel. Right now, that doesn't seem to be enough. God knows it would be nice if it were... That all spouses should be more like Markos has become "if it bothers my spouse at all, I won't do it."

Some spouses aren't like that. And then you either compromise, or you get out (at least as far as i see it).

edited to add: I wish someone would swoop in here and say "Cwmi, here's what you do/say to help your husband understand and accomodate your needs." I don't see that happening.

Maybe Dr. H would have better ideas. maybe he would be able to get through to your husband (again?). I don't know.

I sure hope you guys are able to resolve it, and if you don't mind I"ll continue to talk with you about it.

But if me merely posting things that you don't like/want to do is upsetting you (perhaps based on the fact that we have fought in the past), then do you want me to stay off your thread? Is it so unhelpful to you that I see things differently, or might sometimes have advice you won't take that I shouldn't post to you?

Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Duped - 11/12/10 02:53 PM
CWMI:

Maybe I am in one of those enemy helicopters...

I like what Hold had to say about your standards. How high they are, and maybe, your husband isn't able to "get there"

However, one thing we know now, (at least I just found out..) is that your husband in a used car salesman.

His standards will NEVER be that high, because he gets to swim in the cesspool everyday. And this has continued for thier entire marriage.

It provides the home and a lifestyle that allows CWMI to go to school and do her artist stuff.

Does this make him a BAD PERSON? No, it just makes him a Used Car Salesguy. Who happens to be very good at what he does, such that his former employer comes looking for him after the fact, and the new employer has moved him thru the ranks fairly quickly.

If it is a fairly large dealership, then the dealership has ALL sorts of incentives that are funded by the manufacturers, and the dealership, when goals are met or exceeded. And some of those goals may be travel related. It might mean you go to a new model release, or finanacing deal workshop, or something, that NOT all the salespeople can go to.

Its that admiration thing. Sales guys (and gals) if they are any good, are motivated by the goals that are set by thier employers... Trips, dollars, salesperson of the month, etc.

He gets a HUGE amount of admiration for what he does at his job. He doesn't get much at home. So he works. And works. And looks for reasons to escape.

So, CWMI, you have decided that travel is your hill to die on. However, you do not climb to the top of that hill and start fighting. And maybe dying. Which would be the end of your marriage, because its a hill that you just not going to be able to win.

As far as I am concerned, a guy who leaves a good job at an auto dealership in this enviornment, and goes to another, in the hope that maybe he won't travel, after being promised at the interview time that he won't be, has sacrified ALOT. He has put in danger MANY THINGS. The new job may not have been what it was represented, and sales may not have been as promised, nor the goals as attainable, and there is no going back (at least in the beginning). This put the entire family at risk.

Its a hill to charge up, but your NOT GOING TO.

So you have to decide to accept, adjust, or stew.

Accept that he is going to have travel, and try to make it as palatable as possible. Meaning taking the family and going with him. Arranging sitters, or whatever to make it happen, so that he isn't "Alone" in these other places and looking for OW.

Adjust. He is going to travel. Becasue he is good at what he does, and in sales, that is what happens eventually.

Stew. Decide that the anger and resentment that is building up in you is yours to deal with. HE IS GOING TO DO THIS. So, you stew, or change it. Which apears to be Divorce.

That is why I propose that HE talks to SH. And works thru how to meet you halfway on this in a manner that makes sense to him. He feels maniupulated when you talk to SH, and then he talks to H. So, it is his turn to talk with SH a nember of times, and to learn MB in a way that his salesguy brain can deal with.

Then maybe, he learns how to get you into the right place in line, in first place, and to make sure that you are in the loop. So that when something comes up, you are told. And you accept that you have been told, and your voice is heard. You don't immediately "SAY NO!" to everything. You listen to him, because you are involved earlier in the process. SH can teach him more about this. You can't, I can't. But SH may be able to, if your H feels that it isn't coming from CWMI.

Just my .02

I feel for you CWMI. I really do, its a tough place to be.

LG
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 11/12/10 04:28 PM
Sarcasm is immature, (about a 12-14 year olds forte)
not a good way for grown up people to communicate.
Let me guess, you call names too?
...but only ones you feel justified using.

You are the alpha in your family. It takes a lot of nards to do this. You should be respected for leading.
but.
but

This marriage formula, for whatever reason, is not working anymore.
It will mean the death of your union if you do not change this dynamic.
MB is about love bank and meeting needs. It is so simple, but in practice it is hard to do, at first at least.

Check my sig, if you request, I can send you some information about overcoming control issues, for the alpha, it is hard to read.
But if you are going to justify your sarcasm, general nastyness and name calling (I would hate to be called the names you throw out at your H on a daily basis) there is really no point, because that s one of the the first steps alphas must accept NOT to do in this material.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 11/12/10 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: barbiecat
Let me guess, you call names too?


Isn't this sarcasm, too?

I think sarcasm is wonderful and delightful so many times, but for a married person it is really a nasty habit to be in.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 11/12/10 05:03 PM
CWMI,

I love sarcasm...my H and I employed it on each other on a regular basis. My friends and I still do. It is the way I talk. I didn't really realize it's damage until my sweet, sensitive DD pointed it out to me. I began to realize how much I hated being around my H...how awful I felt...how nasty we were to each other. I would find teachers using it in the school I work and imagine my daughter in that class.

It was awful and hearbreaking.

I had an affair..

After it was over and exposed the most amazing discussion was with our friends...they weren't that surprised...not because I am an awful slut...but because we were so mean to each to each other...they began telling us we made them uncomfortable to be around each other...my friends, his friends, my family...

it was enlightening.

I am now biting my tongue a lot and it is getting easier

I like your straighforwardness and I can tell you totally love your husband. It is clearly evident....to me, but, then again, I'm fluent in sarcasm.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 11/12/10 05:51 PM
No, my intention was to stress the second part of the sentance, not the first.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 11/12/10 07:22 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: barbiecat
Let me guess, you call names too?


Isn't this sarcasm, too?

I think sarcasm is wonderful and delightful so many times, but for a married person it is really a nasty habit to be in.


I didn't read sarcasm in barbie's post.....

Many of CWMI's posts are full of sarcasm and general nastiness. What someone pointed out as her holding herself to a high standard....to me only comes off as arrogant and dismissive. A high standard is relative. What is important to her is not necessarily important to her dh.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 11/12/10 07:37 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?


Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?


Seriously, what do you expect me to say? "Oh, you're so right, I've been so foolish to think that my feelings mean anything here, you're so correct that I should change them to suit what my H wants, after all, it is all on me, so I'll change my feelings post-haste and thank you so much for pointing out my error! I'm SOOOO happy now!!!111!!!"

lol.

That would be great if I was a didtz.

eta: or ditz. YSMV. smile


See- you did it again. You replied to me in an insultingly dismissive manner. The thing is, *I* don't care. I'm not married to you, nor are you my sister, or my neighbor, or my friend, or my in law....or anyone that I EVER have to deal with.

My question was directed to you btw--I wasn't attempting to answer your question to Telly (the substance of which has nothing to do with my point). My question is 'Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general--including your dh?' I said nothing to you about your feelings not 'meaning anything.' I was trying to kindly point out that you are harsh. Ugly talking. Arrogant.

People don't like those qualities.


When I first came here in 07, LA tried to get me to see this about myself. I was so wrapped up in my self-righteous holier than thou mentality that I would not bend....until one day she said, 'I give up.' to me. I was crushed. I suddenly saw myself as others must see me.

The thing is, my now XH turned out to be a WH and he wasn't worth keeping. Maybe that is how your situation will turn out to be. However, your general tone toward all of us is yours to own. I would want to address that if I were in your shoes regardless of whether the marriage makes it or not.

YMMV
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 11/12/10 09:32 PM
****edit****
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/13/10 03:54 PM
I think the whole point here has been lost in a sea of personal attacks on my communication style. I am extremely frustrated, there is no doubt about that. I don't believe it is my communication style that is the problem in my marriage.

For instance, I asked him about that harsh thing he said the other night, when he said he would continue to do things that appear he is not considering me, but he doesn't take me for granted. To me, those two things don't even make sense together. I found out why. He said that 'considering' someone means to appreciate them. I had to show him the dictionary to convince him that that is not what it means. Considerate: mindful of the needs, wishes, and feelings of others. Considering: taking something into account (mainly the needs, wishes and feelings of others, lol). It is a maddening way to communicate.

Last night, he came home and said his truck was acting up and he was going to take it to the shop this morning, if he could make it, the truck was acting like it was going to stall out. So he left this morning and I told him to just call me if he didn't make it. He didn't call, so I phoned him and said, "I suppose you made it okay, then?"

He said, "Nope! The truck is at the shop now."

I said, "Oh no, did you have to get towed in?"

He said, "No, I made it there."

WHAT??? Didn't I just ask you that? Didn't you just answer no? Maddening! Is there anything that can be done about an unclear communicator? How can I tell him that the way he miscommunicates is a problem without him feeling attacked? I think he knows this, but he doesn't see it. It's been a problem for a long time.

TELLY: of course you can talk to me.

LG: I don't know if this makes any difference in your "cesspool" perception, but my H sells extremely high-end cars, most of them cost more than our house. He does sell some used ones, consignment mostly. Still cost more than our house, lol.

His communication style probably does have a lot to do with his business.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 11/13/10 08:41 PM
I don't know, CWMI. Depending on the prominant side of the brain, people communicate differently. He seems to come from a connotative side and you're a denotative style. So he means what he says but it might not be the actual dictionary literal translation.

We get a lot of this with our foreign exchange students when they don't understand slang or casual/conversational English. I typically deal with 7-9 different nationalities other than Americans every year on the soccer team. So communication is pretty big and can take some creativity, patience, and humor in dealing with this situation.

My wife and I are completely differnt temperaments, personalities, and conversational/explaining styles. We have had to learn to repeat and reitterate what we thought the other one said...often what I or she said is not is how it is perceived.

I think when you're operating in a corporation or in an environment like I work in...everyone needs to be on teh same page as far as terminology goes. But I don't think it necessarily has to be that way in relationships. I don't think you have to lead someone to a dictionary to demonstrate that your meaning is more right than the other persons because that's not going to fix anything except possibly make the other person feel belittled. Just so you know, since I have an English degree, I'm very much a literal meaning of the word kind of person...my wife is more of a "you know what I meant" kind of person.

I do think that perhaps in situation like the above if you have an idea of where he is coming from and the meaning of certain words might be different, clarification will go a long way.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Duped - 11/13/10 09:06 PM
CW:

This line:
Originally Posted By: CWMI

WHAT??? Didn't I just ask you that? Didn't you just answer no? Maddening! Is there anything that can be done about an unclear communicator? How can I tell him that the way he miscommunicates is a problem without him feeling attacked? I think he knows this, but he doesn't see it. It's been a problem for a long time.


So what.

He didn't say it exactly like you wanted. Did you get what you needed to know? That he made it to the shop?

Yes you did. Leave the rest.

Really.

If you think he is pathological, and trying to keep you confused all the time, then that is a different problem.

I mean, I get the the convo was a little wierd, but, did you find out what you needed to know?

And if he gets angry when you ask for clarification, then that is on him. You shouldn't respond with snark back at him, but be calm, (like it sounds you did here...) and then maybe your interactions will get a little calmer.

So he sells High End cars? I would expect serious travel on his part, if he is in any way any good at his job. The high end manufacturers want thier dealers to have exceptional knowledge about the cars they are selling. Even if the buyers have no more ability to process this info than: "Well, this IS the more expensive model than the Jones'"

LG
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/13/10 09:11 PM
It's hard when someone is accusing YOU of misunderstanding when the fact is, they misspoke. And then they argue with you about how you misunderstand everything. The least he could do is be apologetic about what he literally said instead of foisting it on me.

I never listen.

I misunderstand everything.

etc.

Does your W get exasperated about how you have to repeat what she said for clarity? My H would prefer I say nothing and I don't know, soak up his true meaning by osmosis or something.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 11/13/10 09:27 PM
Or perhaps he was looking for you to catch the larger idea, rather than the exact meaning of the word.

I'm sure you grasped that he was saying you are important to him, he cares about you and you matter to him?

I'm sure this is all more frustrating when you are facing major issues, and are disconnected. I know that's often how it works with me and my husband. Something that would be mildly annoying becomes really troubling when we are divided.

I'm sorry things are so tense right now...
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/13/10 09:52 PM
Thanks, Tel...

It's frustrating because I don't need that...admiration and praise is not high on my list of needs. It's like he has me confused with him, he ascribes his needs to me instead of paying attention to what my needs actually are. Now if he did say that I was important to him and that I mattered and my feelings mattered, that would be one thing--I'd appreciate that very much! What he said was that he appreciated everything I do FOR HIM, for the house, for the kids, and he's proud of how well I'm doing in school.

I told him I was having a ton of anxiety about travel still weighing on us. He said that he did not want to travel, he knows how difficult it is for our family and even though he thinks I should trust him and allow it, he understands that he busted that by lying about it in the past and also behaving inappropriately while on trips.

Let me back up...I told him about the anxiety, and he said that I had a mental problem. I asked him if he thought it was a mental problem to not want your spouse staying out all night drinking in another state on a business trip? Are 'normal' people okay with that? Would HE be okay with that? Then back to the last paragraph...

..and on to him stating that the next time it came up, he would tell his boss he couldn't do it. I asked him about telling his boss that now? This trip we just got back from wasn't 'required' in that it certified him or that the entire team was required to do it or anything, and not going would not have cost him his job. He said he would talk to him now. Honestly, I would be shocked if he did. He's already lied to him (or one of us, or all of us) and said that he never had the understanding that there would be no travel. I asked him to tell his boss the truth and get the matter settled.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Duped - 11/14/10 12:21 AM
Your husband has conceded business travel, to avoid the aggravation.

Are you now not happy ??
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 11/14/10 01:34 AM
Originally Posted By: Jackblack
Your husband has conceded business travel, to avoid the aggravation.

Are you now not happy ??


Did you even read any of this thread before posting this? Can you take a few minutes to actually read through everything before posting?

Because if you did, you'd realize that a week ago or close to that, he (they) just took a trip for business.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Duped - 11/14/10 08:49 AM
KT
The business trip did not escape me. It also did not escape me that the trip was a disaster for the whole family, including CWMI's husband.

I could be wrong but I think her husband has since made a significant shift in his thinking towards business travel.

My question as to whether she was happy about this was meant as it was written. I would expect there would some sort of relief about this but I was not sencing it in her post. There could be many reasons for this. Maybe I read it wrong.

When the dust settles she probably will be happy. Why wouldn't she be?





Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/14/10 01:26 PM
I've heard it before, jackblack. Many times. Hasn't worked out.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 11/15/10 03:55 PM
CWMI:

You and your husband are having trouble communicating. Since it bothers you, please consider changing your "style". I "hear" you to jump to conclusions while you are listening to your H. Then when more facts come out, you find that your conclusions were false. And then you blame him for not being clear.

How about you not jump to conclusions (which are DJs)? How about you allow him to explain himself before you accuse him of confusing you?

I know this isn't easy. Most of us are thinking 3 steps ahead when we listen to other people. It is hard to train yourself not to do it. So I don't want to give the impression that I think this is a quick fix. But I think it would help.

My wife does this. More so lately than years ago. She interrupts everything I say partway through. She does it to the kids too. And I must say, she is usually WRONG in what she thinks. Mostly, when she interrupts us, she is heading in the wrong direction. Because she has not allowed us to make our point. The kids have started complaining to her. She apologizes, but she keeps doing it.

You already know that you and your H have very different communication styles. So you know that your first impression of what your H says is likely to be wrong. Instead of getting angry with him for misleading you, why not get angry with yourself for leaping to false conclusions? After all, as we say often around here, the only person you can control (change) is yourself. Good luck.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/15/10 04:59 PM
I have a great church. Yesterday's message is not up yet, but I'll link it when it comes online. I can not speak for the whole congregation, but EVERY woman I could see from where I sat was in tears, and most men (including mine) were sitting arms-folded. It is a sad, sad testament to the mentality of people.

I wish it was up now.

What was said that had women dabbing their eyes was: Jeff (the speaker) was meeting with a mentor and going on and on about how wonderful things were going with his preaching, the excellent feedback, all the new projects and how excited he was about GOOD THINGS, and his mentor said, "Get your wife on the phone with me." (paraphrasing)

So Jeff dialed his wife, mentor-man spoke to her and said, (again, paraphrasing, if anyone sees something different from my interpretation here when I link the video, PLEASE let me know!) "So Jeff is telling me about this and that which is going great, and I wanted to ask you: how is he doing at making sure that you and your children are a priority?"

THAT is where my life falls down, and apparently the lives of many wives around me in church. I am not perfect. I fail at a lot of things. I'm not a perfect wife or mother--I don't achieve perfection in the housekeeping department (there is a sandal under the sofa that I can see from where I'm sitting now) and I give my kids cookies instead of fruit in their lunches. I have lots and lots of other imperfections. I forget to buy something at the store--toilet paper, or lunch bags, or I buy too much of something--we once had three cartons of lactose-free milk for my H, because I didn't check and did not want to be out of it.

But my family would never say that they felt they didn't come first with me. Sure, my H took us with him on this trip. He did not want to, and made sure we knew that, what a pain it was.

Jeff also said, "THIS is your greatest calling, to be the husband and father that God has called you to be."

*teary, again*

Why don't guys get this? I can be all forgiving on something once, maybe twice, but dang...this morning I got in my car and was baffled at WHY I was still smelling the putrid stank of my ds13's friend's deodorant from Sunday morning? (he spent the night and went to church with us, I honestly thought the smell was from his over-use of deo, because him being in the car was the first I smelled it) I found out today, my H stuck air-fresheners in my vents--ones he has stuck in there twice before and I complained about the smell. I don't like it. It's a baby-powder scent, which smells, to me, like diapers. I don't want to drive with diaper smell, no matter how 'clean-diaper' it is--I don't like it! I laughed about it and told him how I thought it was a lingering deodorant smell that I find unpleasant, and that I appreciated the gesture, I would just prefer a fruity or linen scent if he was going to slip air fresheners into my car.

Anyway, I'll go see if the link is up now...it is very good. Brownsbridge.org--messages--Game Plan--listen if anyone wants to see the whole series, it's really good.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/15/10 10:35 PM
here we go..."A word from the coach"

http://www.brownsbridge.org/messages

ETA: hit "Game Plan" icon, then 'watch'.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Duped - 11/15/10 11:24 PM
CWMI,

I think in many ways, men are wired to be "providers"; whether that is socially or even biologically motivated really doesn't matter. It's easy to get wrapped up in the provider role to the exclusion of almost everything else. I wish there was an easy way to make your husband or other career obsessed men understand what that obsession does to a family but I suppose there isn't. Not all of us are like that but that's little consolation to those who aren't getting their needs met due to his/her spouse's career. I'm with you though; it took my wife going bat-snot crazy to realize where my priorities really should be and were.

Travis
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 12:35 AM
cwmi, I saw something today, that I thought would be *really* relevant for you. If you are willing, please send me an email at [edited out]. Please let me know once you got the email, or decided you don't want it, so I can take it down, thanks!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 01:23 AM
Can't you just post it here? I haven't had the best luck with sharing email from this board.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 02:11 AM
Let me know when you got it, or decided not to get it, and I'll take the url down. I am not posting this to confuse new folks, you've been doing what you've been doing for a while, and I trust you to take what you like and leave the rest. It's specifically about this cycle you and I have lived of the H threatening divorce when the wife brings her H&O to her H about a choice the H doesn't want to change. Threatening divorce, instead of working together. The W caves, as she's done before, as she will do again. Reverts back to being a Renter, accepting the temporary peace. Because being a Buyer, standing up for the marriage in the face of the threats, proves too much. Until at some point the W doesn't care about the M anymore, either.

No, I can't post the link, it was censored out.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 02:13 AM
cwmi, are you on the MB private forum? If so, the story is there, too, but I don't have access, to get you the link. I
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 03:43 AM
No, I don't, but I'm open to hearing you tell me a story...

if you have time.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Duped - 11/24/10 11:03 AM
Oooo... can I? Once upon a time there was a midget, a wrestler and a NASCAR pit crew chief.... never mind. Carry on!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 11:48 AM
cwmi, like you said, I don't need a link to tell you a story. It's someone else's story, that you "know" from here, but I guess that's besides the point. The point is she googled "husband threatens divorce," and 100 results came, all telling the same story, that the H is attempting to gain control back of the situation, without negotiation. And it works. The woman gives up the things she knows she needs, because she doesn't want to divorce.

In MB language, this person is a Freeloader. "If we're meant to be, it means no change will be required on my part. If I'm being asked to modify my behavior, then we must not be meant to be together." How can you negotiate with a Freeloader? Any thing they say they will do different is a lie, because they don't think they need to change anything. They makes themselves angry with you for suggesting it, and that's the justification to break Rule Of Protection over and over again. Because "you don't deserve protection, you mean controlling wife you".

The advice she was given (not by me), was to stop doing the same thing. Consult an attorney, find out what her rights are.

All I'm asking, cwmi, is to try that google search. Take a good look at what you're up against, so that you're not so surprised and angry next time. Consider having a plan ready. I hope there's no next time. I still have hope for you guys. Have you told Steve about the divorce threats?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 12:33 PM
Quote:
From Dr. Willard Harley http://www.lifetimefitness.com/magazine/index.cfm?strWebAction=article_detail&intArticleId=257

Freeloader and Buyer

Freeloaders and Buyers rarely get together in new relationships, but when they do, the Buyer is likely to get seriously burned. The Buyer is exclusively and permanently committed, and the Freeloader is not. He or she may be cheating on the Buyer, or may even be openly pursuing other relationships. (Think of rock stars and their groupies.)

Most often, Freeloader-Buyer combinations are actually remnants of relationships that once connected two Buyers. If a Buyer becomes a Freeloader, it’s usually because he or she had an affair.

The relationship between a Buyer and Freeloader is a disaster for the Buyer. While infidelity is the most obvious problem, simple neglect can also make the relationship impossible for the Buyer: A Freeloader tends to live his or her life as if the Buyer didn’t even exist.

A Buyer can set an example for a Freeloader of how romantic partners should treat each other. But in the end, if a Freeloader is not converted, the Buyer should terminate the relationship to avoid a painful life of neglect and codependence.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 12:37 PM
What do you think, cwmi, am I close? Is this guy a Freeloader? I know he changed jobs, and I'm not discounting that. In your house, on a day to day basis, what's going on? Is it he usually looks out for the best interests of the family, and the travel thing is an aberration, a result of the fears a bad economy brings? Or day to day, does he make decisions without thinking about you all?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 01:42 PM
I would say he has definitely improved from when I first arrived here, talking with SH had the biggest impact. Remember him taking a crowbar to our fireplace when I was in the bathroom? Or stripping down our patio umbrella while I was at the grocery store? Stuff like that does not happen anymore. Thank God.

And he talks more, tells me about stuff going on, but then there's some icky stuff there...yesterday he told me about a situation at work, and long story short, he told me had decided to handle it in, imho, an unethical way, with deception by omission. You know what a problem I have with that, and it's beyond just not liking it when it's done to me, but when someone practices it in general life. I don't respect people who do that. So anyway, after he told me his plans, I asked him, "Is that how you would like to be treated if this was reversed?"

In my head, I was thinking, he just went to that customer service seminar, he's read Leadership and Self-deception, The Fred Factor, the Speed of Truth, and he just doesn't 'take' to any of it. There's a lack of introspection and absorption and application. I didn't *say* any of that, but that's what I was thinking as he was telling his story.

Anyhoo...he got mad when I asked him that question and told me I was telling him how to do his job. I calmly said I had only asked him a question, and if he didn't want to answer it, that was fine. End of discussion, until later in the day.

He said he was conflicted, that he felt he needed to do what he planned to do to support the family. Then I had the chance to say that I felt that the Bible teaches us to guard our support, our sustenance, by following the word of God, and if we do good things, right and moral acts, then we will be provided for, but doing wrong and immoral acts will certainly put us at risk of losing provision. He *heard* that.

He had another situation not long ago where he was faced with something similar, and he did the 'right' thing and was completely up front about it, and it worked out very, very well. I don't know why he doesn't build on his own experiences--"When I deceive, it ends up bad. When I am truthful, everything goes well."

And this current situation is not in any way of his doing. He was going to be deceptive to cover for SOMEONE ELSE'S MISTAKE. I do not get this mentality!!

What I get really exhausted about is the initial conversations go poorly, and he needs hours and hours to calm down and be rational. It is exhausting! I feel like the mother/coach/psychologist, and I just want to be the wife. I want to be able to have discussions with my H that don't end up with him melting down.

He's having migraines again, too. I speculate that these are tied to the times in his life when he is conflicted between doing the right thing, and following his nature to say eff it, I'll do what I think is going to benefit ME the most!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

And this current situation is not in any way of his doing. He was going to be deceptive to cover for SOMEONE ELSE'S MISTAKE. I do not get this mentality!!



Actually, I do get this. Not for myself, but for him. It fills his need to be liked. He probably thinks that if he covers for this person, they will like him. What he doesn't seem to care about is if they respect him. I should ask him if he thinks being liked is the same thing as being respected.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 01:59 PM
I'm hugely grateful you see progress. I didn't come here to try to tweak your program. I know how awful I felt when my x threatened me with divorce, and when I saw the pattern another poster picked up on, I thought it may speak to you, too. I'm glad he came home and shared with you yesterday. There may be some DJ stuff in there, about how quickly you may expect he will get to total honesty with everyone, not just you, but you two are working the program, and will get there; I'm relieved and happy for you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 02:21 PM
Like kt said on another thread, "Good people aren't dishonest."

I know I'm not the only person who thinks that. Who thinks the opposite? It drives me nuts, it really does. Being honest is a decision that can be acted upon immediately and consistently. Why would someone need to build up to it? You either are, or aren't.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 11/24/10 02:55 PM
CWMI, I'm fully supportive of spouses giving advice to each other. I think that we should. However, do you think in that moment he was just looking to talk?" I'm referring to the "is this how you'd want to be treated (responded? I forget the actual wording of you response to him. Now I have no idea the conversation so maybe he did want advice. But I'm just thinking about how a lot of times wives talk about their day or situations and the guy trys to start giving advice/solving the problem/etc and the wife just wants the husband to listen.

But I do think you're right that people should be honest 99.99999% of the time...even when that truth is hurtful...like when you tell me you hate my shirt. JK JK JK. I didn't say 100% because I still believe in letting my younger kids think there's a Santa Clause smile Does lying about Santa Clause count as being dishonest?

You know, CWMI, I used to have a lot of the actions your husband does. I would put off telling my wife about a situation until the last second that I knew she might not like so I wouldn’t have to hear her gripe. And, you know, it’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission (as the saying goes). I would omit information to avoid conflict and then do the “oh! I forgot….” Then she’d get upset and I’d get mad that she was mad and then we’d all yell at each other and have one big unhappy afternoon. Now, I don’t know if this is applicable to you or not but my wife would freak out when she heard something she didn’t like. She was very quick to fly off the handle and so I knew anytime I had news she wouldn’t like, she’d start getting very loud and disrespectful and so I’d put things off not to get the reaction.

That was years ago and I’m eternally grateful that I have learned that ‘honesty is the best policy’ in all cases…specially dealing with my wife. I decided that regardless of how a person will respond, it should not dictate whether I’m honest or not. I won’t lie and say it wasn’t a relief and made it easier when she stopped having her AOs. But for her to quit having AOs I had to be very honest about how I wouldn’t tolerate her behavior. Anyway, I have no idea if any of that helps you at all or if I just rambled on for no reason . lol
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 03:24 PM
I think it would be dishonest of me to not let him know that his decision about how to handle it caused me to lose respect for him. I didn't actually SAY that specifically, though, but I did say that I respected people who were upfront.

I think it depends on your/my H's definition of 'fly off the handle' as to whether or not I do, or my H perceives me doing so. I don't think I do, and I don't think I ever have as an initial response. I know in the past I have gotten all-out POd and resorted to yelling, as a frustration response to not being heard, but I don't have to be louder anymore to feel like I've said what I needed to say, and I don't own 'not being heard' as within my control. I say what I have to say calmly. Listening is someone else's job. smile

I can see the advice-giving point if I'd said that I thought he should handle it another way. I asked him if he wanted to be treated the same way. What if he said Yes, that is exactly how I'd want to be treated? What could I possibly say from there? There is no advice to be given from that point. My intention was only to encourage him to be INTENTIONAL himself, and honest with himself about who he intended to be in this interaction.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 11/24/10 08:59 PM
Quote:
Like kt said on another thread, "Good people aren't dishonest."

I know I'm not the only person who thinks that. Who thinks the opposite? It drives me nuts, it really does. Being honest is a decision that can be acted upon immediately and consistently. Why would someone need to build up to it? You either are, or aren't.


I agree with all of this. I know folks like this, too, and it gets my attention, too. I understand your disappointment. I'm trying to think of a better suggestion for you, and I'm drawing a blank. What's your plan for when that stuff happens?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 09:57 PM
Call attention to it. You're right, to a point, that it's a habit that people need time to consciously break. I get uber frustrated when he attempts to argue that it is the right thing to do (excluding the santa thing, of course!), I'm like, "Since when? Says who?"

lol...it only damages your integrity if people find out, right? omg...
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Duped - 11/24/10 10:49 PM
CWMI, I wonder if some of your anger over your husband being dishonest at work is that you fear he will be dishonest at home as well. That is my fear when I hear the my dh has been "less than honest" at work.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/24/10 11:09 PM
No, my fear about him being dishonest at work is a whole conglomerate of things:

1. He'll invite the wrath of God (okay, perhaps a bit dramatic, but I do believe this!)

2. He'll get fired, jeopardizing our income.

3. He'll ruin his reputation and be unbearable. If he's not liked, he's not happy!

4. He'll feel guilty and be unbearable. Was it you who read Leadership and Self Deception, about how people lash out and make themselves into victims after they have done something against their own values? Yeah, that's tough to deal with.

5. It is an indication that he will never, ever change, and never, ever, be an honest person. Going back to point #1, I don't want to share that karma.

I'm not fearful that he will be dishonest at home. I pretty much expect it. I'm not angry about him being dishonest at work. I'm disappointed, and worst of all, I kinda pity him. How awful is that? I pity him like he's Willy Loman. I should invite him to see that play, but he'd never recognize himself. I better hush now...
Posted By: ItsTemporary Re: Duped - 11/28/10 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Call attention to it. You're right, to a point, that it's a habit that people need time to consciously break. I get uber frustrated when he attempts to argue that it is the right thing to do (excluding the santa thing, of course!), I'm like, "Since when? Says who?"

lol...it only damages your integrity if people find out, right? omg...


As someone who is himself working through dishonesty I know how hard it is to break out of that habit. I identify myself as a "stay out of trouble liar". I have no idea when or how it started but when I look back at my life I can see the pattern reaching back to childhood. It is HARD breaking up the old pattern and creating a new one. But reading about your husband's problem at work makes me think that he is trying to do that. I think if he didn't know he had a problem with dishonesty, or if he knew but didn't want to change, he wouldn't have told you about the work issue at all. By telling you about the problem and telling you what he planned to do he was probably looking for permission to continue his old pattern, but maybe also looking for help in doing the right thing. He may have been trying to talk it out with you to help him change his course of action without even realizing it. It's easier to go with the old pattern because it's what we have the most practice with. Even though we know it's wrong. We find ways to make ourselves feel it is right.

Recognizing this kind of pattern in oneself and beginning work on it is really difficult. When I see it in myself it is so embarrassing. I feel so childish. My big fear is often how judgmental my wife will be, not about anything related to a lie itself. And then when I'm honest hearing "See?! See how easy it is? I told you so," is really awful, too. "I told you so" is infuriating.

I hope he "does right" in this work situation you described. And if he DOES, tell him you're proud of him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/29/10 09:05 PM
I can understand "I told you so!" as an infuriating thing. Tell me, is it because you were given good advice and didn't take it, so therefore you feel, er, short-sighted? Or is it something else, like a perception that your advice-giver feels superior? Would you say the aggravation is more from you feeling inferior or a perception that they feel superior?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/29/10 09:06 PM
Ah, and we're down to the wire on the situation at work. Final outcome should arrive in the next day or two. Should I even ask how he handled it?
Posted By: ItsTemporary Re: Duped - 11/29/10 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I can understand "I told you so!" as an infuriating thing. Tell me, is it because you were given good advice and didn't take it, so therefore you feel, er, short-sighted? Or is it something else, like a perception that your advice-giver feels superior? Would you say the aggravation is more from you feeling inferior or a perception that they feel superior?


It's the last bit- a combination of both feeling inferior and a perception that they feel superior. And "infuriating" is the wrong word, in retrospect, but I think you understand my meaning. I know that being honest is always the right thing but there are times that I find it difficult to be honest about really small, stupid things. I have this inner conflict about "why can't I just tell the truth about this?!" I feel like I'm hijacking your thread with my own issue here, forgive me. I just found myself relating to your husband's dishonesty problem and the posts about "good people don't lie" struck a chord with me.

As for asking him how the work situation went, yes you should definitely ask him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 11/29/10 09:46 PM
Don't worry about hijacking. Maybe you can help me understand my H, and maybe I can help you understand what it is like to live with a 'get out of trouble' liar...or any kind of liar.

What kind of trouble do you think you'll get in when you tell the truth? With my H, I think he ascribes motives to me that I don't have; they're motives I *think* he has, so he (maybe?) thinks everyone must think that way. For instance, that my aim in complaining is to punish, when really it is to incite change. I am thisclose to believing that he thinks 'getting one over' on someone is an admirable trait, something to be envied, as though it means the person 'getting it over' has some sort of special ability. Like it's a game.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 11/30/10 12:57 PM
CWMI-
I'm going to do a bit of t/j-ing as well.

You asked about "I told you so!"- In my family "I told you so meant the following:

1) The person who said "I told you" was right, and the other party was wrong. See, someone in the marriage always had to be "wrong" or "bad". And, as I learned, it was the wife who was doling out the "Told Yous" and the husband and child who were wrong and bad.

2)The person who says "I told you so" was preventing others from making mistakes. Because making mistakes is a shameful thing.

3) The person who said "I told you so" implicitly knows other people best. That means, that if I were in a conversation and got told "I told you", that meant, that essentially I was stupid and that my feelings and emotions weren't real or valid. I MUST be mistaking how I'm thinking or feeling.

As for the lying. Another habitual fibber here as well. I also learned it as a coping mechanism. I have a borderline parent. At any given moment, a borderline can rage. You don't know when it's coming. And, well, being dishonest was easier than putting myself out there to be raged at. Besides lying, I also used self- injury as a coping mechanism.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/08/10 08:36 PM
You fibbers really boff up people's lives, ya know that? Not just yours. smile

The last couple of days I've been struggling a LOT with this fib: my H told me quite a while ago, while we were doing really poorly, that he only said he wanted to have babies with me because he thought he was sterile and didn't think he'd have to follow through.

I'm trying to reason myself into thinking that he said that because he was being a full-out doodie-pie and didn't mean it, after all, we had another one after that who was planned. Never mind baby #4 who was post-op.

But then I remember him saying, in another doodie-pie moment, that he never thought our first child together was his, because I went out after work one evening the week before Christmas (he was invited) and ran into an old (platonic) friend, and he thought that could be the night that ds was conceived. That child was born at the end of the following November. *crazy*

So, putting together that 1) he thought he was sterile, and 2) he thought our first child together was not his, I can see how he could continue his charade into our baby #2 (my third). Our third (my fourth) was in nobody's plans except God's. smile

Anyhow, I'm feeling kinda borderline and ragey right now, thinking how in the F could someone 1)lie about wanting children 2)not disclose that they believe themselves to be sterile 3)accuse their spouse of gestating for eleven months 4)bring SO MANY PEOPLE into their little boffed up head-games? My word!

It's why I get so furious at people like TomOlympus...I feel like I'm living a totally twisted life, EVERYTHING I KNEW IS WRONG, it is a horrible way to treat someone, especially little children who are brought into this world based on a LIE you told. I hope none of the posters on my thread have been so horrible.

People, just do what you think is honorable and live it. If other people don't like it, well, why you trying to get everyone to like what you do anyway? Don't you know that will be a FAILED effort, no matter how hard you try? Not everyone is going to like you, and if you can only affect other people's reactions by deceiving them, all you have succeeded in doing is deceiving. If that is your end goal, have at it.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 12/08/10 08:39 PM
Here Here
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:06 PM
Sorry to pick up on something that is SO not the focus of this post, but

Originally Posted By: CWMI
Never mind baby #4 who was post-op.


What op? Not the snip? You were one of the tiny percent that conceives after this?

Oops!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:10 PM
His snip, and yes.

Fun conversation, that, and all the other didn't come out (thought he was sterile, baby not his) until #4 was three or four years old.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
His snip, and yes.

Fun conversation, that, and all the other didn't come out (thought he was sterile, baby not his) didn't come out until #4 was three or four years old.


Wow. Just wow. Not just to this post but to the big long one you first posted today.

That sounds EXACTLY like something my XH would say to me. Well, he DID say it to me....before the wedding he wanted kids...then years passed and he kept putting it off for one reason or another--usually something *I* wasn't doing right---then after 16 years when I finally convinced him to have unprotected sex and I got pregnant he tried to convince himself it wasn't his....yeah, sounds familiar.

Ugh. Sorry CWMI. You have my sympathy. Liars are the worst. Eventually I don't think they even know what the truth is.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:28 PM
I would rather he told me either that he didn't want them, or inform me that he thought he was sterile. Either one of those would have allowed me some input on decision-making.

GRAPHIC WARNING:












He would lay on top of me and say, "I'm gonna put a baby in you. You want me to put a baby in you? Yeah? Yeah? Oh yeah!!!!"

What. the. indeed. He shoulda *really* faked it, would have screwed up fewer lives that way. smirk
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:33 PM
Quote:
He would lay on top of me and say, "I'm gonna put a baby in you. You want me to put a baby in you? Yeah? Yeah? Oh yeah!!!!"
rotflmao rotflmao I'm sorry, CWMI, but this is just priceless. How you managed not to burst out laughing is beyond me. rotflmao
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:40 PM
*I* was in lurrrrrve, wanting to give my son a sibling, so I found it quite enticing.

I also like, "I'm gonna spank you, you bad girl" and other laughable lines, lol.

What? whistle
Posted By: ItsTemporary Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:42 PM
You say these lies were told quite a while ago (and they're nutty, by the way). What made you start thinking about them? Does he actually think these things still? Was he drinking or something? Even a bad liar would realize this kind of talk would set off the BS detector.

This must be so frustrating.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Duped - 12/08/10 09:59 PM
Quote:
I also like, "I'm gonna spank you, you bad girl" and other laughable lines, lol.
OOO, baby! rotflmao
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/08/10 10:16 PM
Well, I'd have to say I never stopped thinking about it. I thought things were going great until the topic that started this thread, and ever since, I just...think about things. I guess the catalyst was Sunday when church put out another Great Date pamphlet, designed for husbands to create great dates for their wives. After the announcement, I told him I'd like it if he picked it up and took me on it, we had such a good time the last one.

And then he didn't. Pick up the pamphlet.

Then last night, I'm setting the table for ds13's (now ds14's) B-day dinner, and H is coming behind me moving the plates to be about 1/2 inch closer to the edge of the table. It annoyed the crap out of me. I said, "Is that necessary?" He looked sheepish and walked off, I finished serving and we ate...

So later he said, "We need a date night. What would you like to do?"

I said, "I'd like to go on the Great Date our church has out. Why didn't you pick it up?"

He asked me why didn't *I* pick it up, and I kinda, er, went off. "I didn't pick it up because our church doesn't put it out as a way for WIVES to instruct their HUSBANDS, but to give guidance to the husbands themselves! Why would I want to be the only wife in a line of MEN picking up instructions for MY OWN DATE?"

He said that he doesn't like to make plans for us because he always gets them wrong.

I said, "Like the way I set the table wrong? Should I just NOT do it then because I can't do it right?"

He said the point was taken, but like many points I've made over the years, I think he doesn't get it and just wanted me to shut up.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 12/08/10 10:22 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
"I'm gonna put a baby in you. You want me to put a baby in you? Yeah? Yeah? Oh yeah!!!!"



This... this I find... *shiver*... creepy.

The spanking thing?

Hmmmm... to each their own, and each thing in it's given situation and intention.

Not TMI from me today, no sir.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/08/10 10:26 PM
lol. I shouldn't've told ya'll eh? laugh

C'mon, don't you guys talk a little smack in the sack? lol.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 12/09/10 04:44 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Well, I'd have to say I never stopped thinking about it. I thought things were going great until the topic that started this thread, and ever since, I just...think about things. I guess the catalyst was Sunday when church put out another Great Date pamphlet, designed for husbands to create great dates for their wives. After the announcement, I told him I'd like it if he picked it up and took me on it, we had such a good time the last one.

And then he didn't. Pick up the pamphlet.

Then last night, I'm setting the table for ds13's (now ds14's) B-day dinner, and H is coming behind me moving the plates to be about 1/2 inch closer to the edge of the table. It annoyed the crap out of me. I said, "Is that necessary?" He looked sheepish and walked off, I finished serving and we ate...

So later he said, "We need a date night. What would you like to do?"

I said, "I'd like to go on the Great Date our church has out. Why didn't you pick it up?"

He asked me why didn't *I* pick it up, and I kinda, er, went off. "I didn't pick it up because our church doesn't put it out as a way for WIVES to instruct their HUSBANDS, but to give guidance to the husbands themselves! Why would I want to be the only wife in a line of MEN picking up instructions for MY OWN DATE?"

He said that he doesn't like to make plans for us because he always gets them wrong.

I said, "Like the way I set the table wrong? Should I just NOT do it then because I can't do it right?"

He said the point was taken, but like many points I've made over the years, I think he doesn't get it and just wanted me to shut up.


So.....

He suggested a date night, and you used the opportunity to blast him about what he did wrong?

How was that helpful?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 12/09/10 12:57 PM
cwmi, just because he says now that he didn't want kids then, doesn't mean that at the time he didn't want kids. You already know
  1. his memory is like a sieve
  2. he has a habit of lying to you about what he thought in the past
  3. he makes up stuff to make you feel bad and or get you off his case
If it helps, I had BTDT, H also told me a few years ago that he didn't think he could get a woman pregnant, and that's why he didn't choose to use protection when I got pregnant with DD14. And that he only married me because I was pregnant, even though we were already engaged before that. He said a year after that, when we were reconciling temporarily, that he not only didn't say that, but he never would have said that. And I remember how painful all that was at the time. But life moves on, water under the bridge, this, too, shall pass. At some point, cwmi, I think you're not going to care anymore. But I'd be happy to support you here in any way I can until then.

So, you said how you handle it is to call him on his stuff. Did you ever hear how LA describes it, lovingly handing their words back to them? Not a shame thing, just reminding them you're not playing that game anymore, "let's pretend to get all upset as if you and I believe what you just said." He's simply doing what he does, because it had a payoff for him at the time. Are y'all working a plan that will address that over time?

I think he may have married someone like you, because he likes to be the rebellious bad boy, and feel like he's getting away with something. Renter thinking, not realizing these patterns are unsustainable. But that's neither here nor there. How can you make a plan of attack that doesn't add to these huge withdrawals this behavior already brings? Or maybe you do already, it's hard to read tone. When you mentioned about that Great Date thing, were you getting exasperated on the inside, or calmly remembering this is just what he does, tries to make you feel bad, because that's more important to him than building a strong marriage? His choice, not about you, you are making an awesome life for yourself and your family, with or without him?

If you were calm, I think you may think, you know, it doesn't matter if we follow the Great Date plan or not. Sure, it'd be nice, but he's not a failure if he doesn't pick up that paper. It's just a suggestion, take it or leave it. What do you think?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/09/10 01:20 PM
How are you holding up, ned? Don't worry about me, unless you need the distraction...
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/09/10 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
So later he said, "We need a date night. What would you like to do?"

I said, "I'd like to go on the Great Date our church has out. Why didn't you pick it up?"
He asked me why didn't *I* pick it up, and I kinda, er, went off. "I didn't pick it up because our church doesn't put it out as a way for WIVES to instruct their HUSBANDS, but to give guidance to the husbands themselves! Why would I want to be the only wife in a line of MEN picking up instructions for MY OWN DATE?"

He said that he doesn't like to make plans for us because he always gets them wrong.

I said, "Like the way I set the table wrong? Should I just NOT do it then because I can't do it right?"

He said the point was taken, but like many points I've made over the years, I think he doesn't get it



Oh he gets it.


Originally Posted By: CWMI
and just wanted me to shut up.


But yes, he just wants you to shut up.

I struck through some text above....things you could have kept to yourself....what do you think you could have said instead? When he said,

Originally Posted By: CWMI
'he doesn't like to make plans for us because he always gets them wrong'


Could you have looked at him and nodded to acknowledge his point (even if you don't agree with it AT ALL). And then said, 'well. You asked what I'd like to do...that is what I'd like to do.'

And then leave it. Would that have worked?

I see patterns of myself in you. Saying too much. Trying to educate. Wanting a truth that you may never get...because I am not sure your dh knows his Truth, so how can you know it? But you can live with him--as the man he is...at his core...IF he will do the ACTUAL things you need. Is that possible?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 12/09/10 06:28 PM
cwmi, distraction is right. I have houseguests coming, and I'm one of those folks that has a hard time staying calm when everyone else is upset. It's enough work to keep putting one foot in front of the other as it is. I'll go update on my thread.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/09/10 09:41 PM
Hang in there ned. Lots of prayers for you, such a shocking and brutal time.

We did discuss the kid thing last night--he, of course, just like your H, denied ever having said it. It was a good conversation otherwise. He said he knew he's said a lot of awful things over the years, but he doesn't remember saying that or feeling it. I told him I wished I had his memory of it, cause mine stinks and makes him look like a jerk, and me like a fool. smile

SW--I was too irritable and ready to lash out. He's not the intentional turd he was, but he still isn't...well, here comes a big DJ: he lacks competence in the relational department. Sex is good, he's a great financial supporter, if he wasn't OCD he'd be an awesome Domestic supporter, but there's more to life than sex, money, and spiffy cribs.

I'm cranky right now, so I'll stop...I'm in finals at school, and am disputing a grade. I had five graded assignments in this class and scored a 93, 94, 92, 94, and 94, and my prof gave me a B. wth? He lacks competence, too??? lol. I'm hoping it's just a mix-up and he recorded it wrong on my transcript. I sent him a very nice email even though I wanted to say wth can't you add???

Lord grant me patience today!
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/09/10 09:55 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SW--I was too irritable and ready to lash out. He's not the intentional turd he was, but he still isn't...well, here comes a big DJ: he lacks competence in the relational department. Sex is good, he's a great financial supporter, if he wasn't OCD he'd be an awesome Domestic supporter, but there's more to life than sex, money, and spiffy cribs.


I hear you CWMI...if you are like I was in my last marriage, I felt like I responded correctly 90% of the time, but when I would come on here and share the details of the other 10% I would get hit hard with the 2 X 4s.

It was not until I began seeing my now dh that I realized just. how. hard my first marriage had been. Most of that was because WXH had ZERO interest in really making it work. Part of it though WAS because he just didn't get some things...

So you have the advantage of your dh wanting to do better.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/10/10 11:46 PM
Well now I'm just piggly pleased. My prof responded well to my email and adjusted my grade (to what it was supposed to be!) and I finished my final final for the semester and still have my 4.0.

There's more to life than grades, though, too.

Still...*squee*

Validation, that's apparently a big need of mine, eh?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Duped - 12/11/10 03:15 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Well now I'm just piggly pleased. My prof responded well to my email and adjusted my grade (to what it was supposed to be!) and I finished my final final for the semester and still have my 4.0.

There's more to life than grades, though, too.

Still...*squee*

Validation, that's apparently a big need of mine, eh?
hurray Gotta give you a little somethin' on that. Well done!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/12/10 09:32 PM
Thanks. smile

I'm so done, I'm blistering in the heat. He's been gone all day, and has another Wed evening engagement, he claims today is required but W is not, and I'm forked. Done.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 12/12/10 10:46 PM
Please today, just today, refuse to be mean or speak badly to your husband. Try and be nice or kind to him.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 12/13/10 12:41 PM
Sugarcane is right.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Duped - 12/13/10 12:43 PM
I think we should help people here, and not post snide comments about them.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/13/10 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Thanks. smile

I'm so done, I'm blistering in the heat. He's been gone all day, and has another Wed evening engagement, he claims today is required but W is not, and I'm forked. Done.


He was gone where all day yesterday?

Why are you so upset about it?

What is the Wed evening engagement? Does it involve smoozing clients over cocktails and you aren't invited? Is that why you are upset?

Just trying to understand.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/13/10 04:15 PM
work, SW. It's always work. They held an event, making for a 13-day work week without a day off.

A while ago, we had a discussion after he'd had two events in the same week and wanted my blessing to do a third. He thought he could schmooze me into it by 'allowing' me to go, but since I'd already gone to one that week, I had no interest in going. He tries to play them off like 'dates' for us--I want real dates, not stuff revolving around his job. I don't want to have to tag along with my H to one event after another just to spend time with him. I want him to make time for ME, special. Anyway, back then (this was early November, I believe) he said he would not volunteer to do any more of these 'extras'. Events were a big problem at the last job. This one is worse.

So I'm po'd that he volunteered to do this event Wed, and how he went about it. He called me and said he might *have* to go and if he did, would I be interested in going with him? I said if you HAVE to be there, okay. So then he ran to his boss and told him that he'd volunteer to be their guy for it. What part of *have to* is that??? He said he talked to me about it and I agreed! Crazy. I said, "If you had called me and said you were thinking about volunteering to do this, I would have said no, I didn't think that was a good idea, especially given the Sunday event this week."

Just same old, same old.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Duped - 12/13/10 04:55 PM
same old independent behavior. Sorry this is happening to you, CWMI. frown

As a person who fights with my own tendency towards IB, I recognize the tactic he used to get his own way:

Quote:
He called me and said he might *have* to go and if he did, would I be interested in going with him? I said if you HAVE to be there, okay. So then he ran to his boss and told him that he'd volunteer to be their guy for it. What part of *have to* is that??? He said he talked to me about it and I agreed!
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 12/14/10 07:50 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
work, SW. It's always work. They held an event, making for a 13-day work week without a day off.

A while ago, we had a discussion after he'd had two events in the same week and wanted my blessing to do a third. He thought he could schmooze me into it by 'allowing' me to go, but since I'd already gone to one that week, I had no interest in going. He tries to play them off like 'dates' for us--I want real dates, not stuff revolving around his job. I don't want to have to tag along with my H to one event after another just to spend time with him. I want him to make time for ME, special. Anyway, back then (this was early November, I believe) he said he would not volunteer to do any more of these 'extras'. Events were a big problem at the last job. This one is worse.

So I'm po'd that he volunteered to do this event Wed, and how he went about it. He called me and said he might *have* to go and if he did, would I be interested in going with him? I said if you HAVE to be there, okay. So then he ran to his boss and told him that he'd volunteer to be their guy for it. What part of *have to* is that??? He said he talked to me about it and I agreed! Crazy. I said, "If you had called me and said you were thinking about volunteering to do this, I would have said no, I didn't think that was a good idea, especially given the Sunday event this week."

Just same old, same old.


This is exactly how it goes on my end, as well. I understand, however, that with my H's job it is more required and he does not EVER volunteer himself for more time than he already has to put in, but good grief, he puts in SO much time.

He will ask me to go to some of the functions and play it off as a date for us, as well. Sometimes I will go simply because I have not seen him for more than 30 minutes on any given day of the work week, and I want to get any time that I can. Mostly, though, I get ignored and stuck talking to people I do not want to hang out with.

This morning as he was heading out the door was when he decided to tell me he will be out every night this week (so work all day and then a night even each evening). I asked him why he was just NOW telling me, to which he replied that he did (he did not, but this is what he does). I think I would remember something like that. Our son has 3, two hour sports practices this week, so I guess I will shlepping kids to and from school and practices this week by myself with not much notice.

So tired of it, I want to SCREAM.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 12/14/10 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
same old independent behavior. Sorry this is happening to you, CWMI. frown

As a person who fights with my own tendency towards IB, I recognize the tactic he used to get his own way:

Quote:
He called me and said he might *have* to go and if he did, would I be interested in going with him? I said if you HAVE to be there, okay. So then he ran to his boss and told him that he'd volunteer to be their guy for it. What part of *have to* is that??? He said he talked to me about it and I agreed!


This is my H's tactic, too. I call him out every time I see it, but he just keeps doing it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/14/10 08:45 PM
hehe...does he also say silly stuff like, "Well when I talked to you about it I didn't KNOW I was going to volunteer, so how could I mention it?" lol...he has NO IDEA how dumb that sounds. He thinks it is very clever, and I'm the dumb one.

He's right, though. I am the dumb one. I spent a while this afternoon browsing my posting history and after two years, along with six months of counsel with SH, I'm in exactly the same crappy marriage that brought me here to begin with. Being manipulated, lied to, or ignored. None of that has changed, except for that brief period right after this job started. He said to me, "Yeah, you were happy when you thought everything was just right, weren't you?" (in a nasty tone)

I said, "Yep, I sure was. Funny how that works."
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 12/14/10 09:03 PM
frown I just did the same thing. There will be a great day or weekend we had, then months and MONTHS on end before I have another day where I feel we are in a real marriage. Reading back makes me sad. After almost 2 years of counseling, the tools we have and how nothing ever lasts...

I am dumb, too.

And yes, he pulls those same stupid stunts on me, as well.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Duped - 12/14/10 10:14 PM
Thread jack and pointless observation but I'm struck reading this thread that there are soooo many people on here who hate that their husband puts in long hours, dedicates his life to his career, etc, etc. The counterpoint to that is my marriage where my STBXW has encouraged me to work longer hours, lots of overtime, etc where I don't get compensated for it (military). All because she didn't want to spend that much time with me. I wanted to spend time with her but that apparently was a LB. I didn't have my "own life".

So at this point in my life, I think it's enlightening and interesting that there are women out there like yourselves that actually WANT to spend time with their spouse. Why on earth your spouses don't see, understand and want to enthusiastically comply with that is absolutely MIND BOGGLING. No JOB is worth more than family. [/rant]

Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 12/15/10 01:15 AM
TC, I totally get CWMI and the women that want more time with their husbands. I've said on numerous occassions to my wife, "I'm sorry I don't make more money." To which she replies, "I'd rather have you home than have you make more money."

To my wife and wives like CWMI, family time is more important than a few more bucks in the account.

I know I shouldn't apologize to my wife. I make a decent salary; I'm a school teacher with coaching stipends. But it sure would be nice to be able to buy her nice jewelery, run off on vactaions, have 10K sitting in the bank just in case, and so she wouldn't have to work until all the kids are in school fulltime.

But her top needs are FC and DS...so even if I was making a million a year, I'd be working really long hours and she wouldn't be happy.

Sory for going off topic for a bit CWMI.
Posted By: stretch123 Re: Duped - 12/15/10 05:26 AM
I have been thinking lately that we would be happier if we moved into a much smaller house and paid a much smaller mortgage. I think we would be happier with less crap.

A couple months ago -- I did not get a promotion I was going after. The kid who worked for me got the job. Younger kid, I brought him on, taught him.... he's excellent. Really like the guy. But then he becomes my boss. And (you can't make this up) I was actually called with this news ON MY 40th BIRTHDAY! "Hey! Happy 40th! You didn't get the job. But your employee jumped over you and he got the job."

What a punch in the gut.

But, you know what -- he is working his ass off and I am spending more time at home than ever ! I am good at what I do and I am finding it easier and easier.

I think getting laid off and moving into a small apartment would make us happy.

So all that being said.... Ladies -- you really need to sit down with men and talk about this work thing. Its not easy out there. There is a ton of stress involved in providing for the family. In being a bread winner. In witnessing HIGH unemployment. In raises not coming through... bonuses getting cut... seeing your colleagues lose their job. Its been rough out there and the job is not guaranteed. Sometimeswe have to do more and more and cannot just clock off at 5:00. I had a buyer that was at his desk at 6AM and didn't leave until past 6PM. And usually wanted to have drinks after work. As much as I wanted to cut back... leaving the house at 7:30AM and getting home at 6:00 PM and never checking blackberry all night or weekend really made me a slacker compared to other people.

All that being said... I really started to realize that it was killing the relationship at home -- which I wanted to strengthen. Little things make a big difference. Communicate. Make a call home. Figure out when your wife likes to get a phone call and make a fully focused phone call for ten minutes. No distractions. Go into a conference room if you can.

Also, text'ing is a great invention. I like to text my wife throughout the day. Just silly stuff and important stuff. Its important to stay connected even when you're really busy and really must be away.

Right now however, I wish my wife would take the initiative to save money. Cut back on something. I mean really pick some things we don't need and get rid of them. Too many cable channels... some magazines... some community center activities for the kids... sell old clothes at Once Upon a Child to make some dough. Sell some crap on CraigsList. Bust our butts together on a garage sale (I did the garage sale all by myself last summer) Cut a cell phone plan. Cut the nasty high sugar expensive snacks in the pantry. Don't go out to every new release movie in 3D or IMAX.

Really sit down and have a conversation about this work thing with husbands. It defines us. Its impressive how hard we can work. Its amazing how much we can provide. But it becomes a trap. Wouldn't be surprised if some of your men don't feel trapped by it all and have a lot of anxiety about being able to provide and keep that job.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 12/15/10 05:51 AM
Originally Posted By: stretch123
I have been thinking lately that we would be happier if we moved into a much smaller house and paid a much smaller mortgage. I think we would be happier with less crap.


Right now however, I wish my wife would take the initiative to save money. Cut back on something. I mean really pick some things we don't need and get rid of them. Too many cable channels... some magazines... some community center activities for the kids... sell old clothes at Once Upon a Child to make some dough. Sell some crap on CraigsList. Bust our butts together on a garage sale (I did the garage sale all by myself last summer) Cut a cell phone plan. Cut the nasty high sugar expensive snacks in the pantry. Don't go out to every new release movie in 3D or IMAX.


Just for arguement's sake, how do men NOT know-or take the time to figure out-if their wives are spenders or savers before marriage? Or, is it bait-and-switch sort of thing? Or is it because needs change over time?

I'm a woman and the breadwinner.I'm a saver, and so is my husband. Being a saver (amongst other things) is a quality that we specifically looked for in partners.
Posted By: stretch123 Re: Duped - 12/15/10 07:17 AM
Good question.
Easy out answer is: most people between 20-25 really don't know who they are, why they're getting married.

I don't remember looking for "spender" or "saver".

My wife figured I would be a good bread winner. I had potential anyway -- and she wanted to take some years off work to raise the children. We did have that discussion at least.

But my older sister pointed out to me recently that she knew 15 years into being a homemkaer my wife was going to wake up and say, "Hey! Who Am I? Why did I do this? I'm not happy with this deal."
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/15/10 03:21 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
Just for arguement's sake, how do men NOT know-or take the time to figure out-if their wives are spenders or savers before marriage? Or, is it bait-and-switch sort of thing? Or is it because needs change over time?

I'm a woman and the breadwinner.I'm a saver, and so is my husband. Being a saver (amongst other things) is a quality that we specifically looked for in partners.


How old were you when you married?

I just married for the second time at age 45. I had an actual 'top ten' list that I had created some years ago of qualities I wanted in a mate. On that list is ability to provide for a family and willingness to live within one's means.

My dh is so much like me in this area. It sure makes life easier.

You can't tell early 20 somethings this stuff though. I'm trying to teach my son to be conservative....
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/15/10 03:29 PM
Originally Posted By: stretch123

Really sit down and have a conversation about this work thing with husbands. It defines us. Its impressive how hard we can work. Its amazing how much we can provide. But it becomes a trap. Wouldn't be surprised if some of your men don't feel trapped by it all and have a lot of anxiety about being able to provide and keep that job.


Stretch, after having this conversation many many times with just he and I, we had many more with Steve Harley. Six months worth. Lots of $$$ was spent having these conversations. This is the result--my H volunteering to spend more time at work. There isn't anything left to say.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/15/10 03:52 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: stretch123

Really sit down and have a conversation about this work thing with husbands. It defines us. Its impressive how hard we can work. Its amazing how much we can provide. But it becomes a trap. Wouldn't be surprised if some of your men don't feel trapped by it all and have a lot of anxiety about being able to provide and keep that job.


Stretch, after having this conversation many many times with just he and I, we had many more with Steve Harley. Six months worth. Lots of $$$ was spent having these conversations. This is the result--my H volunteering to spend more time at work. There isn't anything left to say.


Stretch's point is well made, but probably doesn't apply to your situation CWMI. From this side of the computer screen it feels more like your dh gets his affirmation from work and co-workers. That kind of external affirmation is more important to him than your happiness or approval.

Maybe.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 12/15/10 04:43 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
From this side of the computer screen it feels more like your dh gets his affirmation from work and co-workers. That kind of external affirmation is more important to him than your happiness or approval.


Maybe. Or maybe work approval is more predictable. And less subject to being withdrawn over a single word or deed. Not sure that Mr. CWMI prefers Admiration received at work to Admiration received at home. More likely he feels more confident that if he expends energy at work, he will receive Admiration. Whereas he fears that efforts expended at home will be "wasted" since CWMI won't provide Admiration no matter what he does.

Not saying this is true. Not saying CWMI is unwilling or unable to provide copious amounts of Admiration. But I have gotten the impression that CWMI has very high standards. Not necessarily unreachable ones. But I can understand if Mr. CWMI fears he won't be able to reach them. Whereas he feels that the standards at work are far more attainable.

I understand that the ethos of MB is that a happy is marriage is worth whatever effort it requires. And those people who have attained one all seem to say it is, so I will take their word for it. But for those of us who have never experienced it. And who fear we never will. When asked the question "are you willing to do whatever it takes to create a marriage in which your spouse feels romantic love for you most of the time"? The answer may well be "no". If I were someone dead set on having a fulfilling marriage, I wouldn't want to be married to one of us, either.

Not assigning blame on either side. Simple unhappy fact. In order to feel fulfilled, one spouse may require their partner to put forth an effort that the other spouse simply is not willing to expend on a persistent basis. It is like being married to a Renter. When the rent gets too high, they bail. Very sad when the couple does not realize this until years or decades later.
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 12/15/10 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: stretch123


Really sit down and have a conversation about this work thing with husbands. It defines us. Its impressive how hard we can work. Its amazing how much we can provide. But it becomes a trap. Wouldn't be surprised if some of your men don't feel trapped by it all and have a lot of anxiety about being able to provide and keep that job.


I completely understand this, I really do. I KNOW my husband is defined by his career. It is who he is to the core. He *used* to make those calls, texts, come home and have conversations with me. Now, I am lucky to get a call and the texts have stopped, as have the conversations when he gets home from work. He plugs right into this laptop and works until bed time. He has had this career before I came along. Back during dating, he was available to take the time for me, but as the years have passed, he chooses to put more time into work and less into his home life. I see this as a choice. It does NOT mean us wives do not understand how hard, stressful and burdening it is to be the breadwinner. Men still have a choice to cherish their wives and not put every ounce of effort into work. I see a lot of men making the WRONG choice and a lot of wives waiting for them to come home some day and treat them with the care they did before.
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 12/15/10 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: stretch123

Really sit down and have a conversation about this work thing with husbands. It defines us. Its impressive how hard we can work. Its amazing how much we can provide. But it becomes a trap. Wouldn't be surprised if some of your men don't feel trapped by it all and have a lot of anxiety about being able to provide and keep that job.


Stretch, after having this conversation many many times with just he and I, we had many more with Steve Harley. Six months worth. Lots of $$$ was spent having these conversations. This is the result--my H volunteering to spend more time at work. There isn't anything left to say.


Stretch's point is well made, but probably doesn't apply to your situation CWMI. From this side of the computer screen it feels more like your dh gets his affirmation from work and co-workers. That kind of external affirmation is more important to him than your happiness or approval.

Maybe.


I think for her H and my H, this is a DEFINITELY, not a maybe. It is very sad, frustrating and a sock to our self esteem (sorry CWMI if that is not how you feel, just assuming here, since we seem to be in a similar boat).
Posted By: Retread Re: Duped - 12/16/10 05:33 PM
CWMI,

I have been away for 7 months, and came back today to see what was going on. I was so disappointed to read your post. After the first page, I skipped to the last one.

None of us know enough to really know what is going on in your husband's mind or in your mind. From this distance, and the perspective of being away, it seems obvious your husband needs to change the type of employers, coworkers, and clients he has.

His whole business is focused on people whose egos are not solid. They have to reassure themselves by spending money foolishly on expensive toys, and having other people fall all over them, providing service and praise.

Your husband, because of his childhood, has some need of the same things, just not the huge income to buy these toys. He gets to play with other people's toys, and works like a dog to have them praise him, reassure him.

It is a treadmill, going nowhere. Like the sled dog at the back, the view never changes. Sooner or later, he has to jump off, or he will fall down and it will dump him off.

Know that he is struggling with this every day at work, especially in this economy, with so few places to go. What he needs is to know that you understand the demons that drive him, that you support what he needs, not more beating him up for not giving you what you need.

This is where so many couples fail, at compassion, at understanding, at asking to be understood, asking for help in changing their lives into a seeking of positive things, rather than running from old fears. He isn't likely to volunteer his true thoughts, because that is a sign of weakness. It makes him vulnerable. You have to let him know that you understand something is wrong, something is troubling him, creating conflicts which he expresses diametrically opposite from what he really feels about you.

Right now, he is living selfishly, but it is out of worry, pressure at work, his self-image and insecurity. You are reacting by going to the same individual mode. Both of you need to return to a level of intimacy in conversation that will enable him to find what truly makes him happy, so he can better serve you. I suspect that will be with a clientele more down to earth, who work very hard for the much fewer dollars they have. He can respect them.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/16/10 05:58 PM
I think it's pretty clear what he really feels about me, Retread.

BTW, I've missed your presence here.

Here is some stuff from the last couple of days: I went with him to the Co Christmas dinner Tuesday. We had a great time, then went to a local watering hole afterwards, where a man sitting next to us (within a group of three--2 dudes, one gal) said, after we'd engaged in conversation with each other, that he was surprised we were married to each other for ten years, we acted more like lovers who were married to someone else. I said, "That's so sad, that you think that of marriage."

Then Wednesday came.

I did not go to the event--at an art gallery, to sell cars?--and told H that I did not feel the need to honor an agreement that I made without RH from him, and it was up to him if he was going to go. He said that he was going to go to honor his agreement to his boss, but it would be the last time evah that he would volunteer to do this stuff. I said, "I have no reason to believe that."

So he got home at 10pm and I haven't spoken to him since. Like I said before, I'm forked. Done. I am doing nothing else for this marriage.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/16/10 06:52 PM
Oh! I forgot this morning! He called a couple of weeks ago and said that he got an iPad (spiff), but didn't want it, could swap it for money, but if I wanted it for my Christmas present, he'd authorize it. I said heck yeah (long story short, he bought me a computer a couple years ago for Christmas, 'upgrading' to a much heavier one that he thought I'd appreciate more, when what I wanted was mobility, I already had a heavy laptop).

Anyway, I say all that to say I wasn't honest when I said I hadn't spoken to him. He was opening the iPad box this morning (it arrived via fedex yesterday) and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"

FORK. ME.

I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/16/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"


Ouch.


Originally Posted By: CWMI
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile


Yes you do.
Posted By: Retread Re: Duped - 12/16/10 08:36 PM
CWMI,
After being away for 7 or 8 months, I did not plan to post twice i one day, but since you just posted, I will keep a dialogue going with you.

I am not saying you should not feel sore at your husband. He is slipping back into what appears to be the same old behaviors which hurt you in his old job. It is very easy for current behaviors to be triggers for old feelings, too easy to feel like you felt before, when it maybe isn't the same behavior, or the same situation, nor nearly as bad.

You didn't address any of my comments, so I guess you are to steamed to shift your point of view from your own feelings to his feelings, to what is driving him, about which I speculated.

I would recommend a book about anger that has been discussed here before, but that is what got me expelled last Spring. You and your husband are both dancing, reaction to each other, a sort of chain reaction.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/16/10 08:46 PM
Retread, I understand his feelings very well. He needs validation and approval from his workmates. He works very hard for that. I support his effort there.

What I do not support is his lack of seeking validation and approval at home. I am ready, willing, and able to smother him with admiration, support, and approval. I have been doing this for years. I am, perhaps, responsible for his ginormous head.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/16/10 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: CWMI
and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"


Ouch.


Originally Posted By: CWMI
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile


Yes you do.



I would like more than one-word responses. S'planation, por favor?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/16/10 10:01 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: CWMI
and I said, "WTF are you doing opening my Christmas present???"


Ouch.


Originally Posted By: CWMI
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that. smile


Yes you do.



I would like more than one-word responses. S'planation, por favor?


Well, easy enough for me to just say, 'stop that.' Ha!

I can't quite figure out the relationship you two have. In one post you detailed an evening with your husband where a stranger thought you two didn't seem 'married'. What was the stranger's actual (although done in poor tasted to suggest you were having an affair) intent? Was he saying you and your dh seemed into each other? In love? That is a compliment, right?

And if that is what the stranger was picking up from you two...I feel intimacy between you and your dh....conflict too...constant nearly...but definitely intimacy.

Trust me---you do not want to 'feel nothing.'

However, you can choose to stop feeling hatred for him. That is yours to own.

Is it just possible that you are not going to get what you want from your dh? If so, will you divorce him? I can't fathom divorcing a man over working too much. Perhaps he will let that working too much devolve into something else, a slippery slope that ends in an affair....but perhaps not. Perhaps if you can see him as he is as a flawed man who loves you and loves his children....but still as he is.

Could you let go of the hatred then?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/16/10 10:31 PM
WTH, SW? You can't see divorcing a man who works too much? To whom? What constitutes 'working too much' in your book?

45-50 hours is my limit.

You may be fine with 70, but I am not. wth?
Posted By: Retread Re: Duped - 12/16/10 10:34 PM
CWMI,
I want to be sure of what is bothering you so much.

1. He needs validation from his work more than he needs it from you?

2. He receives validation from his work more than he does from you.

3. He doesn't validate or respect you and your needs.

I also see now that he is working 60 and 70 hours a week, another slippage from what this job was supposed to be. I have been in that situation, where the management slowly turns up the heat, and has everyone competing to work unpaid overtime. That's a tough one to fight, in this economy.

Back to my original suggestion - the two of you chill out, back up, and get him to brainstorm, blue sky, clean sheet of paper, what he would really like to be doing, what would really make him happy - not how he would tune his current job or career.

Let him talk it out. Then you do the same for what you would like in your ideal world. Don't limit your thinking to your present world.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/16/10 10:45 PM
Retread, you're talking like we haven't been through SH counsel yet. We have, I've done all I'm willing to do, I'm finished! I'm not doing anything else until I file. I'm done. Nobody can talk me into doing anything more except H, and I don't believe a word coming out of his mouth.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/16/10 10:49 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
WTH, SW? You can't see divorcing a man who works too much? To whom? What constitutes 'working too much' in your book?

45-50 hours is my limit.

You may be fine with 70, but I am not. wth?


Well, I was just giving you my opinion. My more than 'one word' explanation.

Sounds like you have drawn a line in the sand.

Shrug.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 12/16/10 11:46 PM
Well, CWMI, good luck to you in the future. Divorce is tough...if you do go down this path. I think the hardest part of this is going to be telling the kiddos and watching them cry and then be resentful towards both of you for a long time. At least that's how it's been in my situation when I was divorcing from my exwife and from those I've been around that have been divorced (and we know how high the divorce rate is). My 12 year old is still pretty uspet and vocal about it that her mom and dad couldn't stay married and that was over a decade ago. My 14 year old isn't quite as vocal but still mentions it.

I do think you might get all the honesty from him that you ever wanted when you file. I think when you do, he's going to be angry enough to finally be honest with you and drop the 'list' of complaints that he has about you but is afraid to be honest with you about.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 12/17/10 02:11 PM
Quote:
I need to feel something other than hatred. I need to feel nothing. God will not grant me that.


He will grant it it you. State of Withdrawal. Actually, you know by now your H is responsible for how you feel about him. And you're on the Road from State for Conflict to State of Withdrawal, where you feel nothing.

What do you think about a Plan B separation before going to D? I wasn't able to make that happen, but for you, do you think you could get your H to move out?

What do you think about a Plan B letter, so you don't take him back too soon, before you two are set up for success?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 03:03 PM
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
What do you think about a Plan B separation before going to D? I wasn't able to make that happen, but for you, do you think you could get your H to move out? What do you think about a Plan B letter, so you don't take him back too soon, before you two are set up for success?


I am astounded that anyone would think this man should move out of his family home because he works more than his wife wants him to.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 12/17/10 03:23 PM
SW, you know it is way, way more complex than that. This statement is an unfair characterization.


CWMI - what are you thinking today?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: barbiecat
SW, you know it is way, way more complex than that. This statement is an unfair characterization.


CWMI - what are you thinking today?


I will admit I haven't read every single post. Part of the time CWMI has been here I've been off dealing with a WH who destroyed our family. I do see that she has negotiated with him over this work issue and he has gone back on his word. I do understand that she doesn't believe his promises. I understand how distressing that is.

I still do not believe it is grounds for asking him to leave his home. JMO.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 12/17/10 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman


I still do not believe it is grounds for asking him to leave his home. JMO.


CWMI's husband could be considered a workaholic. Do you think it's not fair to ask him to leave because having work as his first love isn't "as bad" has having another woman, alcohol, or drugs has his first love?

I learned very early on, actually, that being a workaholic was a very acceptable method of escape from my family. It became one of my go-to coping mechanism for life. Sure, I was able to accomplish good things, but I don't think that using work to escape or cope is really "good" under any circumstances.

SH didn't make much of an impact with CWMI's husband..Sometimes we need to pull out the big guns, so to speak, with respect to boundaries.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 04:56 PM
Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
CWMI's husband could be considered a workaholic. Do you think it's not fair to ask him to leave because having work as his first love isn't "as bad" has having another woman, alcohol, or drugs has his first love?


I do not equate workaholic with adultery, alcoholism and drug addiction.

I will however, agree with this

Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
I learned very early on, actually, that being a workaholic was a very acceptable method of escape from my family. It became one of my go-to coping mechanism for life.


Sometimes people turn out to be different than what we thought they would be. Life is like that. Marriage is like that. Sometimes one of the mates will not make changes the other one wants. I do not believe that is grounds for divorce.


Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
SH didn't make much of an impact with CWMI's husband..Sometimes we need to pull out the big guns, so to speak, with respect to boundaries.



Over on SAA I've seen a man (SOL) post that he has been adviced by SH or other counselors affilitated with this site to not leave an adulterous wife...one that is pretty much in his face about her affair and her unwillingness to save their marriage. So I can't believe it would be the thing to do to leave a man because work issues cannot be POJA'd.

Again just me. As a BW who has watched my child go through he** and myself suffer because of the divorce I sought due to WXH's adultery...I know I would NEVER divorce over workaholism.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 12/17/10 05:18 PM
Smiling Woman,

Three years ago, I would have agreed with you. That thought seems utterly ridiculous. The problem was the thought of living in a marriage where you are not put first (or second or third or tenth)is draining.

It seems to me, she has several options

1. Request and receive the best counseling available (check)

2. Continue to live in a relationship that she finds disrespectful and dissatisfying (check)

3. Seperate or divorce

Right now she is as number 2. I was there. My DH's "other woman" was his work and all the "fun" activities that were related to his work. I did complain but I felt ridiculous...how could I even consider leaving because he (gasp) works too hard.

So, I didn't consider it. I was good with boundaries around coworkers and old friends....until I wasn't.

I am in no way suggesting that my affair was justified...quite the contrary. I am saying that CWMI often gets berated here for stating what she will not tolerate. She is told that leaving or making him leave is ridiculous. SHE IS DOING IT RIGHT where I was doing it all wrong.

I went into withdrawl...from there an affair wasn't really that much of a stretch...we already had seperate activites/vacations/interests. I felt like as long as I was there to meet his domestic needs/have sex/ and provide well behaved children to smile on our Christmas card, I was good. I actually continued to provide all of that during my affair.

Turns out of course I couldn't have been more wrong. I should have made my needs clear and defended my boundaries like CWMI is doing. Maybe she isn't as subtle and kind as she could be but she has been doing this awhile

AND she is in conflict which means she hasn't withdrawn

Yet.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 05:40 PM
Originally Posted By: sunnydaze53
Smiling Woman,

Three years ago, I would have agreed with you. That thought seems utterly ridiculous. The problem was the thought of living in a marriage where you are not put first (or second or third or tenth)is draining.


I certainly know this is true. I lived it myself. Lived with a man for 26 years who is 20 times worse than CWMI's dh on his worst day. I would have loved it had his biggest fault been that he worked too much. I would still be married to him and my son's FOO would be intact.

Originally Posted By: sunnydaze53
It seems to me, she has several options

1. Request and receive the best counseling available (check)

2. Continue to live in a relationship that she finds disrespectful and dissatisfying (check)

3. Seperate or divorce

Right now she is as number 2. I was there.


My DH's "other woman" was his work and all the "fun" activities that were related to his work. I should have made my needs clear and defended my boundaries like CWMI is doing. Maybe she isn't as subtle and kind as she could be but she has been doing this awhile

AND she is in conflict which means she hasn't withdrawn

Yet.


I am not suggesting CWMI should NOT make her needs known to him. Or that she should begin pretending that she is good with how things are.

However, I do think that divorce is hard. It is hard for everyone and everyone loses so much more than they would by just putting up with one another's faults--to a point. And I guess that is where my opinions differ. I took a lot off my WXH, but when I found out about his affairs I divorced him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/17/10 05:51 PM
SW, you came here 'hating' your H before you knew about any affairs. It was the title of one of your threads: "Hate my husband". Are you really saying you would have continued being married to him, hating him, refusing to have sex with him, if he remained just as he had been when you got here? For the rest of your life? You may say yes. I would say, for me, no, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a loveless, or hate-filled, marriage.

I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.
Posted By: Gdar Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SW, you came here 'hating' your H before you knew about any affairs. It was the title of one of your threads: "Hate my husband". Are you really saying you would have continued being married to him, hating him, refusing to have sex with him, if he remained just as he had been when you got here? For the rest of your life? You may say yes. I would say, for me, no, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a loveless, or hate-filled, marriage.

I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.


Amen and Merry Christmas.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SW, you came here 'hating' your H before you knew about any affairs. It was the title of one of your threads: "Hate my husband". Are you really saying you would have continued being married to him, hating him, refusing to have sex with him, if he remained just as he had been when you got here? For the rest of your life? You may say yes. I would say, for me, no, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a loveless, or hate-filled, marriage.

I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.


I did not refuse to have sex with him. In fact we continued having sex right up until the morning I found out about OW. I did hate him at times....I vented here a lot. I got a lot of 2 X 4s too. I worked very very hard to be the best wife I could to him even though he was viscious to me on many levels. It was definitely to a level of abuse that I would not encourage anyone to tolerate. He cursed me constantly, belittled me constantly, lived an entirely seperate life from me and ds. Is that really the kind of marriage you have with your dh?


I also did not come here hating him before I found out about any of his affairs. I first came here in the summer of 07 when I accidentally discovered he was trying to hook up with the wife of one of his oldest friends from High School.

So to answer your question about ME specifically....I wish I had not spent so many years working so hard. I wish I had not required proof of his seriel cheating before I kicked him to the curb. And as bad as it was it wasn't all bad. I would not say it was totally hate filled and loveless.

Is that how you really feel about your marriage? Because I don't see your marriage that way.....maybe it really is...but I don't read that in your posts. If my XH ONLY worked a lot...had ONLY disconnected from us like he did....but been kind to me...I would not have divorced him.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:05 PM
CWMI, I think you are doing the right thing (which ought to scare the crap out of you). I think you should insist on your boundaries, even if it means the end of your marriage. I don't think you will be happy with your life otherwise, and I think you do have the capacity for happiness.

I hope I am proved wrong in thinking your marriage will end in divorce. I hope your husband steps up to the plate once you draw a firm line on what you will not accept. If not, his loss.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.


Wouldn't that cover any fault that you wanted changed that he refuses to change?

And you are free of course to divorce anyone you want. I certainly wish my very unhappy XH had divorced me instead of cheating on me for years.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman

Is that how you really feel about your marriage? Because I don't see your marriage that way.....maybe it really is...but I don't read that in your posts. If my XH ONLY worked a lot...had ONLY disconnected from us like he did....but been kind to me...I would not have divorced him.



You haven't read the posts. Is it kindness to tell your wife that you only said you wanted kids because you thought you couldn't have them? Is it kind to manipulate agreements by leaving out important pieces of information? How about moving out in the middle of the night while your family is sleeping, or going out of town for days and refusing to answer the phone, coming home drunk? How about screaming over chairs 'off the mark', or in your face about telemarketers ("I AM A NICE PERSON!!!!" he screamed in my face after refusing to tell a telemarketer--for me, she kept hanging up on me when I said it--to take our number off their list)? Is it kind to repeatedly lie to your spouse? Allow your parents to say cruel things to them? Tell people who are complimenting your wife that you disagree with them? Is that kind? How about going in early and staying late at work for an entire week while your wife is sick with the flu, can't get out of bed, and the kids are out of school? Then calling and asking what's for dinner and coming in and complaining about the mess?

I've put up with a LOT of BS. I'm not here trying to change anything because he is so very kind to me...
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:56 PM
Is it kind to bring up every fault your husband ever did or said in your short marriage????

NO. You are appearing to be UNKIND. And it appears you are not open to any kind of marriage improvement idea or solution.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:58 PM
You know what? We dont know half of what really happens in your marriage. If you are anything like this (even a little bit) to your husband as you are on this board then...........well you can figure out what I am trying to say here.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 12/17/10 06:58 PM
We can only lead the horse to water, we cannot ram solutions down it's throat.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 12/17/10 07:37 PM
If you agree that she should make her complaints known and enforce her boundaries then please explain how she is to do this if she isn't willing to leave?

I'm not trying to be snarky because I haven't figured that out yet for myself.

And Bubbles, maybe you are right, maybe she is DJing about future events and his motivations. How does one stop doing that when it has been proven to be true again and again?

If you read Charlie Brown, Lucy always removes the football before he can kick it. How long is he supposed to keep trying?

The reason I feel so attached to this situation is because I still feel like she is doing right what I did wrong. After my A, everyone, friends and family alike told me I should have left if I was unhappy, HOWEVER, knowing my friends and family like I do, I would expect a similar response to what CWMI is doing.

Here everyone assumes that if a woman is leaving or has left her husband, there must be another man. That is a documented fact that most women leave for that reason. Maybe that is because it is so drilled into us that leaving for any other reason is unacceptable. We mitigate the pain we are in by delving in to fantasy land....is that better?

With some people IRL, I sincerely believe they are more understanding of me having an A than if I had just left AND that is sad.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
You haven't read the posts. Is it kindness to tell your wife that you only said you wanted kids because you thought you couldn't have them? Is it kind to manipulate agreements by leaving out important pieces of information? How about moving out in the middle of the night while your family is sleeping, or going out of town for days and refusing to answer the phone, coming home drunk? How about screaming over chairs 'off the mark', or in your face about telemarketers ("I AM A NICE PERSON!!!!" he screamed in my face after refusing to tell a telemarketer--for me, she kept hanging up on me when I said it--to take our number off their list)? Is it kind to repeatedly lie to your spouse? Allow your parents to say cruel things to them? Tell people who are complimenting your wife that you disagree with them? Is that kind? How about going in early and staying late at work for an entire week while your wife is sick with the flu, can't get out of bed, and the kids are out of school? Then calling and asking what's for dinner and coming in and complaining about the mess?

I've put up with a LOT of BS. I'm not here trying to change anything because he is so very kind to me...



I admitted I've not read all your posts. What you describe above is FAR different from the general picture you've been painting lately. The above contains some abusive treatment.

So WHY has your hill to die on been the work issue?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:02 PM
Much of that is work-related, SW. Even the telemarketer thing can be tied to him working so much that he wasn't here for weeks while that lady repeatedly called harassing me. She'd call on his day off, but he wasn't here to take it--he was at work. She'd call in the evening, but he wasn't here--was working late. She'd call in the morning, but he wasn't here--went in early. His parents were here visiting, mouthing off to me, while he was at work. He invited people to come stay in our home, and promptly left them with me. Everything except the babies thing can be tied to work, but he did say that after I complained about...work taking him away so much and leaving me to raise the kids alone! ta da! smile
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:06 PM
Originally Posted By: sunnydaze53
If you agree that she should make her complaints known and enforce her boundaries then please explain how she is to do this if she isn't willing to leave?

I'm not trying to be snarky because I haven't figured that out yet for myself.

And Bubbles, maybe you are right, maybe she is DJing about future events and his motivations. How does one stop doing that when it has been proven to be true again and again?

If you read Charlie Brown, Lucy always removes the football before he can kick it. How long is he supposed to keep trying?

The reason I feel so attached to this situation is because I still feel like she is doing right what I did wrong. After my A, everyone, friends and family alike told me I should have left if I was unhappy, HOWEVER, knowing my friends and family like I do, I would expect a similar response to what CWMI is doing.


It isn't an either or situation. You didn't have to leave or have an affair. You could have made your life with a man who was not an ideal husband. And just because MY marriage failed doesn't mean all of those kinds of marriages have to fail. If you had recognized your lonliness and therefore potential for an affair you would have put EP in place. It is what I did when I was married to a man who I felt put me last. I raised my son, I worshipped my God, I loved my family and friends, I associated with my congregation.

I used to have what I called 'kindness dreams.' Without fail every time my then husband would be mean to me I would go to sleep and dream another man was kind to me. I would wake up and be so amused. It helped me be aware of how he was affecting me.

Originally Posted By: sunnydaze53

Here everyone assumes that if a woman is leaving or has left her husband, there must be another man. That is a documented fact that most women leave for that reason. Maybe that is because it is so drilled into us that leaving for any other reason is unacceptable. We mitigate the pain we are in by delving in to fantasy land....is that better?

With some people IRL, I sincerely believe they are more understanding of me having an A than if I had just left AND that is sad.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:20 PM
I do not want to teach my daughter that is okay for her to be disregarded and disrespected, nor do I want to teach her to have an affair to deal with it.

I was a conflict avoider. I am learning different. I want that for my daughter. I would be proud if she were more like CWMI.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:21 PM
If both spouses are abusive to each other, which one has to move out of the family home? Which one gets the kids? ( I know CW has threatened to leave the kids with her husband in order to get her way in the marriage.)
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: sunnydaze53
I do not want to teach my daughter that is okay for her to be disregarded and disrespected, nor do I want to teach her to have an affair to deal with it.

I was a conflict avoider. I am learning different. I want that for my daughter. I would be proud if she were more like CWMI.


It isn't working for CWMI though is it? She isn't happy.

I think you can state loud and clear what your needs are. Repeatedly. If your mate refuses to accomadate your needs then I guess you need to decide if it is bad enough to leave over.

CMWI is saying it is bad enough to leave over. I don't think this is over work though. I they are sorely mismatched...and they will either have to figure out how to co-exist peacefully....or divorce. They will not ever be what the other needs.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:36 PM
CWMI, I know you are at a breaking point, and I wish I had a magic answer. All I could give is a virtual hug.

But I will say that nothing about any of the MB program says a spouse should "suck it up" and just deal with a miserable M. Any advice in that vein is way out of MB parameters.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Duped - 12/17/10 08:42 PM
I agree with you and that is where I am stuck. If she had just come here complaining about her husband and not looking for solutions then I would agree it a selfish reason to divorce; however, they have counseled with the best.

If she is not willing to leave then what possible motivation would he have to change anything?

My DH and I actually had a discussion about his lack of affection and non interaction with myself and the kids. He stated that that was "just the way I am." We also discussed his unwillingness to be involved in things important to me like church. Once again, "I don't believe that stuff."

After my A, he attends church regulary (even teaches Sunday School), is home by bedtime 6/7 nights. Only goes out with friends (male) once or twice a month as opposed to 3-4 times a week. He is by no means the "ideal" husband but one I am happy to work with. The problem is of course, he may never recover from my A and I am always a bit resentful to learn he is capable of trying...just wasn't willing

Maybe a plan B will work, and if it doesn't, then she knows she is better off.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 12/27/10 08:42 PM
Update?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/27/10 10:48 PM
hahahaha...um, nope. Not a good one, anyway. I'm not in Plan Anything (unless floating is a plan). There is something seriously wrong with me, I SHOULD just go ahead and blow up this life and start a new one already.

He got peeved with me a few days ago, wanted my blessing and commitment to go to an event on the 29th, I just looked at him like he was crazy and laughed. He told me I am 'always so negative about everything', I told him I felt that unfair--I'm negative about after-hour work functions, and just because that's the only thing he approaches me to do, it does not mean I'm negative, always, about everything. It means I am always negative about one thing, the one thing he keeps bringing me. So maybe he'd like to knock it off.

Ah, but then there's the trip coming up, too! *squee* Yeah, I don't know much about it except that he sent me a memo, and I responded, "Why are you sending me this? I don't need this." He called and said, "So what are you saying?" I said, "I'm not saying anything. I've said the same thing for years, if you haven't heard me yet, you're not going to. So why say it again? Is that what you called for? I'm kinda busy."

Sad, huh?
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Duped - 12/28/10 05:10 AM
CWMI - have you read the article by Harley on "When to Call It Quits" part one? You can find it here

I've been keeping up on your situation thinking if there was ever a time for a Plan A/Plan B strategy that didn't involve infidelity, this was it.

Since you're well on your way to emotional divorce anyway, what do you have to lose?

He knows this is a deal breaker for you, yet here you are, having these kinds of conversations. In other words, he either doesn't believe you, or he doesn't care. Either way, Plan B will snap his head around - and since you really mean it, you're done - then Plan B will work for you.

What do you think?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/28/10 08:43 PM
I think I should have planned B'd immediately after starting this thread. I was SO HAPPY, so in love, so thrilled with the changes, short-lived as they were, I should have severed at that point to save it. Now I just think he's dumb as a box of rocks. Useless save for cash, which I can get from him without being married to him. He told me that I make him feel stupid.

I told him I thought he was.

It saved me from thinking of him as heartless and cruel.

After so many years of the round and round about the same thing, I had to think he was either stupid or cruel.

Anyway, I don't think I want to save it anymore. I'm amiable to it, I do still think it's best, but I don't want to lift anymore.

I dropped into his work today with the littles, I took the oldest to the airport this morning to fly off to see his dad, and the littles (H's children) wanted to stop at his job since he'd invited us. The guy who took pictures at the company Christmas party was there, and came up to me and said, "You looked fabulous in all the shots, but your husband there ruined them; he looked so tacky." And I thought, yes, tacky. His fake smile...he's such a faker. I have one. He looks like he's snarling. That's his fake smile.

Oh, I see much potential in him if he loses his tacky salesman fakeness. I don't think he's a bad guy. He lacks authenticity, though. Honesty, authenticity, realness instead of his fakey-fake view of how the world works...man...if he would just rest in his worth, as a man, and have good values of worth as a man...he could really be something. I've given ten years, don't see my input having any bearing.

Yes, I told him I thought he was stupid. I've also told him that he underestimates his worth to his employers. He doesn't have to chase empty leads, he is a veritable force who brings profit, NONE of these events have led to profit deals, he can wreak havoc within his daily sched and anyone would be a FOOL to let him go.

So, anyway, if I move on, it's Plan D, I don't see any other way. He'll think B is just a ruse, and there's the stability of the kids--if I leave, kids are with me, so he should leave the home. But I can't make him go unless I really piss him off, and I just don't care enough to!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/28/10 09:29 PM
wth, kt...ask for an update, no comment?

Typical man...
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 12/28/10 09:53 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
wth, kt...ask for an update, no comment?

Typical man...


Lol. Knew you'd get me with that comment did ya? Hold on a sec, Madam. I just got out of the dentist office after over a 2 hours visit, and now I'm walking into the gym. Lemme eat my postworkout cow and ilI'll be back with ya. Promise I won't be late.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Duped - 12/29/10 12:04 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
wth, kt...ask for an update, no comment?

Typical man...


He's being a good listener and not rushing to give advice on how to fix your situation. Isn't that what women want? whistle
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 12/29/10 01:09 AM
Originally Posted By: bitbucket

He's being a good listener and not rushing to give advice on how to fix your situation. Isn't that what women want? whistle


lol! Nice response.

CWMI, I don't really have any insightful comments like I'd like to have. You guys are at a stand still. You have an intolerance in your marriage, which you have tolerated.

And it seems like he feels his work situation is more important than how you feel. It seems you can either do Plan Hold in which you chug along content to forego happiness or you can Plan B to see if that changes anything.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 12/29/10 01:50 AM
Hey, I resemble that remark! wink
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 12/29/10 01:10 PM
Cwmi, I was hoping those changes back then would last. It seemed to simple, it was all in place, set up for success.

I don't think it's stupidity. I think it's Renter mentality. "I'm willing to make some limited repairs, but if something really needs fixing, it's not my job." I don't understand why it came back. And darn it if nothing else, for the kids' sake, I wish the good days would have lasted longer. Build up some good memories for them. I don't know, maybe you all did that already.

Do you remember ForeverHers? He called it an issue of pre-eminence - who rules your life? Me or Thee.

The one regret I have, cwmi, is that I never went to my church, my pastor, for help. Years ago, I confided in one staff member there when I was concerned about x's drinking, and she prayed with me about that. But when I was ready for Plan B, the only thing I did was ask for prayers for unity in my family. I never told them where I was, and asked them to reach out to H. I didn't want to be a "bother." My church had just lost it pastor, and was searching for a replacement. I had my pastor's email, could have spoke to him anyway. But I figured they had bigger issues to work on. It was depression talking. Kids losing an intact family is a big deal, and in retrospect, seeing how they have rallied around my family after my Dad's death, I have no doubt they would have reached out to us when we were facing the divorce, too.

Maybe you have spoken with your pastor or elders already.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/29/10 04:30 PM
Originally Posted By: bitbucket
Originally Posted By: CWMI
wth, kt...ask for an update, no comment?

Typical man...


He's being a good listener and not rushing to give advice on how to fix your situation. Isn't that what women want? whistle


Not this woman. smile I would LOVE to complain about something and have a man swoop in and fix it. omg, I would love that SO MUCH.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/29/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay


Maybe you have spoken with your pastor or elders already.


I have never minded being a bother. I did talk with our CARE ministry, but they were no help for me. It's really messed up--the sermons are fantastic, Stanley himself is awesome and our other pastors are also on the same page with me and how I think, but get down into one-on-one with the regular joes at our church, and it all falls apart. Work is #1, personal happiness trumps commitment...I would love to get my H hooked up with Andy S, or Jeff, but I have no clue how to do that within our flock. We attend the 3rd largest church in the country, weekly attendance of over 20,000. It's not like the pastor shakes everyone's hand after service. I love our church and I wouldn't go to another, but dang...remember how our community group reacted to my feelings on GNO??? There's a great message being delivered, but not heard by a lot of people involved.

Anyway, the care minister told me to respect my husband and follow his lead. I asked him to speak with my husband about being a leader and loving his wife, and he said unless my H initiated the contact, he couldn't speak to him. I said something along the lines of what good are you then, I'm telling you that my husband is leading this family into ruin and you won't do anything to redirect that, you CAN'T? You tell me to FOLLOW him into the destruction of this family? Wow. WWJD? Not what that guy did.

Love my pastors, love the messages, but there is a very small percentage of the population who agrees with MB, POJA, RH, and love as a verb.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 12/30/10 04:29 AM
cwmi, I'm sorry to hear that. Reminds me of the scripture that says if you have a problem with your fellow man, bring two others to speak with him. Something like that.
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/30/10 10:48 AM
My biological father is a used car salesman. The psychologist thought he had anti-social personality disorder. Seems its very common among salesmen and car salesmen in particular. They are very good at telling people what they want to hear and putting on a show, especially for strangers. But inside they don't care about anyone else and don't have a conscience. They blame others for problems. Its never their fault. They have superficial charm but lack empathy for others.

I wonder if MarriageBuilders even works with someone who has such a personality disorder. Posters that have advised you, and even DrH, assume that people feel guilty or are motivated for the same reasons that most people are. But science shows that anti-socials are motivated by money. Not even pain. They put some anti-socials in an experiment where they were electrically shocked for wrong answers or lost 25 cents. The anti-socials had no learning improvement from the shocks...unlike normal people who learn to avoid pain. BUT...they learned much better than normal people when the loss of money was at stake. People like this are drawn to sales because the more they act nice and fool the customers, the more commission they are paid. Anti-socials don't care if they lie to customers, or cheat, or turn in false papers. They care if they loose money.

So how does a program like MB, which assumes people have a conscience and guilt, work when the other party feels no compunction about abusing others or cheating as long as it produces more money? What if your husband has anti-social tendencies? He is a great salesman...he seems to be able to act nice when he wants to...doesn't seem to have any guilt about what he does....fake salesman smile. Look up anti-social personality and see if it fits for him. You have lived with him for years...if any of it rings a bell, please take it seriously. This is not a disorder that has ever been cured.
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/30/10 11:14 AM
>>You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here. <<

I have read this entire thread...fascinating. I have to agree with your statement. My emotional reaction to the posts by one person in particular are very negative. I feel offended big time by whatever this person writes.

This forum is full of people who don't suspect that there are people out there without consciences. Such a thing does not occur to them. Maybe they even believe such a thing is not possible. After reading and absorbing all the things you have said about your husband, I would bet that he has a personality disorder and lacks empathy, and feels no guilt about lieing or "using" other people, you included. I don't think it is a case of "poor misunderstood and mistreated man" encountering so many disrepectful judgements and love busters from you as at least one obvious enemy helicopter on here at least implies.

If I am right and he is an anti-social, he will respond more to the threat of loss of money than anything else. Maybe the factor of divorce that would be most offensive to such a person would be having to pay spousal and child support ;-)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/30/10 11:23 AM
He could just be an a-hole, though. OCD is pretty clear, without a doubt, and his co-workers have always chided him on it--a long time ago he was fired for it because he was caught cleaning and neglecting his own job. But yet, he doesn't think he has a problem, it is GOOD to be super-clean, and it is other people, the ones who DON'T obsessively clean who have the problem. Like me. I'm a disgusting little sloth. lol.

NPD, BPD, AHD (a-hole disorder! lol)...who knows. If he won't seek out help and good advice, nothing will change. He said he took the advice of SH, and look where that got him! BLIND, I swear, just blind.
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/30/10 10:58 PM
I myself have OCD. Since my male parent is anti-social, there is probably a brain chemistry connection between the two disorders. Does MB work for people with brain chemical disorders? There is no cure for anti-social disorder. Counseling doesn't work, there are no medications that work, electric shock doesn't work, jail doesn't help.... The other disorder often called a$$ h disorder is Aspergers Syndrome. But people with Aspergers are socially inept so I doubt that is his problem! I don't think your husband is just a run of the mill ah after reading your thread.
Posted By: Living2Love Re: Duped - 12/30/10 11:06 PM
wow i wish i had time to read this whole thread. i stumbled into the wrong forum and saw this and i am amazed at all the kinds of problems there are besides affairs. i wish i had some really good advice for you, but does H know about MB? if he does, has he been willing to accept the concepts and make them his own? Does H see that there are problems within the marriage that are disturbing to you?

one thing that disturbs me about your situtation is when you tried to get your church involved. it isn't right that the pastor or whomever you asked for help to approach your H said he wouldn't or "couldn't". this just isn't like ANY church i have ever attended or been a member of. i know you said that attendance is in upwards of 20k people and you mentioned something about a CARE team. what have they said about approaching your husband? And if your husband is involved in the church as well, why wouldn't it be possible to schedule an appt for both of you to attend? just the fact that you were told that they wouldnt help you because H had to contact them, just totally boggles my mind. to me that is not a properly funtioning church, no offense. the church we chose to become members of, they become our family, and they should treat eachother as such. and most will help with anything they are physically able to. my church has helped me out tremendously, they even bought new locks and changed them when i got a restraining order on my H and had 3 dollars to my name because H wiped out my acct. I am so saddened that your church and it's elders are not willing to take such a simple step as you have asked. im so sorry. i hope it works out for you. God Bless
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/31/10 12:46 AM
I want to say that I followed your link to the Game Plan video and watched and it was very helpful to both my husband and I. I was saying that I wished I lived near and got involved with a church like that. Then the last poster reminded me that they wouldn't get involved without the husband's request. What is up with that? I don't get it. They seem like such a great church and I was even getting a bit jealous that I could not be a member. I guess not for abused or neglected wives...
Posted By: Living2Love Re: Duped - 12/31/10 04:09 AM
Originally Posted By: ManResa
I myself have OCD. Since my male parent is anti-social, there is probably a brain chemistry connection between the two disorders. Does MB work for people with brain chemical disorders? There is no cure for anti-social disorder. Counseling doesn't work, there are no medications that work, electric shock doesn't work, jail doesn't help.... The other disorder often called a$$ h disorder is Aspergers Syndrome. But people with Aspergers are socially inept so I doubt that is his problem! I don't think your husband is just a run of the mill ah after reading your thread.


rofl! my husband probably has anti-social disorder and he defanitely has a$$ hole disorder, but i dont know if it is really aspergers.
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/31/10 10:54 AM
Asperger's is on the autism spectrum. People with this disorder are commonly thought to be a$$ hs because they lack the ability to recognize emotion in people's faces. You can't empathize with something you don't recognize, and they come across as major jerks. They are also so literal in their interpretation of language they sound like androids, don't get jokes, puns, etc.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/31/10 12:37 PM
L2L, we coached with Steve Harley for six months.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/31/10 06:59 PM
Originally Posted By: ManResa
I want to say that I followed your link to the Game Plan video and watched and it was very helpful to both my husband and I. I was saying that I wished I lived near and got involved with a church like that. Then the last poster reminded me that they wouldn't get involved without the husband's request. What is up with that? I don't get it. They seem like such a great church and I was even getting a bit jealous that I could not be a member. I guess not for abused or neglected wives...


You can watch all the sermons online, though, which is the best part. smile You can 'go' every week. I sent an email to them today, asking specifically for Jeff to call my husband. See, that's the thing, my H says he DOES put me first and I just don't appreciate it. Said it this morning. I asked him if he remembered Jeff's sermon, how Jeff's friend didn't ask JEFF if he thought he put his family first, but asked JEFF'S WIFE. And why he thought that was.

He didn't know.

I told him because it was the wife's perspective of where she was in pecking order that mattered. Jeff could say all day long that he put his wife and kids first, and really believe that, but if his wife and kids didn't FEEL first, then what he said didn't hold any weight. His wife and kids wouldn't think they mattered to him, regardless of what he could assert. And that's where we are. He thinks I should concede time for money, even though he knows money is not important to me (except like air, of course...if there isn't ANY, that's a problem, but enough to live is fantastic and all I truly need).

And there's the sociopathic stuff...HE thinks money is more important that people, so he doesn't get why I don't understand that and beleive that too, because if I understood it and the pressure he is under (puts himself in? Please, we're still set up to live on 36k a year) I would be APPLAUDING all the time he puts into work.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 12/31/10 07:23 PM
NED:

"If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16
13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/31/10 11:19 PM
Well, so he does think money is more important than people. Seems to fit the psychological profile. Then loss of money is going to be his most important motivator. Dr. Harley wrote another book that discusses how men who divorce have less overall net worth on average than men in intact marriages. He should be made aware of that at least. Maybe when you are unhappy you cost more too, in medical bills, psychologist bills, etc.
Posted By: ManResa Re: Duped - 12/31/10 11:23 PM
Social pressure is not going to matter to such a person who is motivated by money (anti-social tendencies). They will just put on a show when seen and behave rottenly when not observed. Guilt is not an issue. They don't have it. So no guilt that they are not following God's laws. I really would like Dr.H to address what to do with a anti-social personality. My bio father was somewhat helped by his third wife's care so that he at least behaves more lovingly. Not that he feels anything inside, but the behavior is there, even if it is an act.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 01/01/11 04:17 AM
Thanks for the citation, cwmi, Matthew 18:15. It sounds like you're not rushing into anything, and from out here that looks like a prudent course of action.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 05:45 PM
How are you doing, ned?

I'm a big old meanie, a controlling witch who deserves to be spited, myself. *yawn* I'm practicing detached detachment and it has my H considering divorcing me again. *double yawn* He told me that he finally "Figured it out! Between the last job and this job, the common denominator is YOU!" I lol'd and said, "Not the travel?"

Oh, but my detached detachment also has my H up my butt, bringing me coffee and blankets and attempting to snuggle up against me and kissing my head and MAKING DINNER and I gave him his same, "Gawd, give me some room to breathe here!" What a sickening dance.

I wish I was only making decisions for myself, I would be in the Caribbean right now. I was at the airport yesterday picking up dsOldest, and it did hit me...I could jump on a plane and be gone.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:01 PM
There is a possibility that if your husband did not have the travel issues for you to complain about and worry about, that there would be another thing he is doing to not meet your expectations that you could focus on and complain about.

There is always something to complain about. He probably knows that if he cuts out all the travel, you will still not be happy with him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
There is a possibility that if your husband did not have the travel issues for you to complain about and worry about, that there would be another thing he is doing to not meet your expectations that you could focus on and complain about.

There is always something to complain about. He probably knows that if he cuts out all the travel, you will still not be happy with him.


really? Because you or he or anyone (including me) could look back to the four months where I believed travel was a non-event and say differently.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:16 PM
Oh, but you know what, you may be right, Bubbles, I would never be happy with his stringent rules on housekeeping. We talked about this last night. He asked what housekeepers do. I did this for a short while (>1yr), as a sub-contractor and as a business owner, and I told him what I did and what my contractor required for so-many-dollars. Going rate here is $75 for a two-hour clean, including a full bath clean and kitchen surfaces, dust, sweep, vacuum, and mop of the entire house. He wanted it done three times a week, but was not willing to pay $225/week for it. He'd rather abuse me about it, like he deserves it, for some odd reason.

Like I don't already provide him a once a week service.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:37 PM
Plus childcare, which would run $150 per child in our area, per child, per week...down to $50 per child per week while they are in school...so I've basically been providing $450 per week of childcare (nevermind OT, which the daycare centers charge $5 per 15 minutes, so some days would have OT of $20 per hour, for four hours, $80) plus $75 per week of housekeeping (minimum), nevermind the cost of chef services and accounting...or at minimum, $225 per week of services he would have to pay for from anyone but his wife, plus fix his own meals and do his own books.

Which I did books, too, at $50 a week for general household stuff.

All this stuff he would have to pay for, or do himself.

But I'm useless.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:37 PM
LOL! I like to provide once a week service too!
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:42 PM
Don't you guys do the kitchen and sweep, mop, and vaccuum the entire house daily anyway?

Here's what has to be done at my house everyday (mainly cause kiddos are messy critters) vaccuum the rooms, mop/sweep the kitchen and entry way of the front room, clean the kitchen table, stove, counter tops, dishes, pick up all dirty clothes. And we have to complete at least 1, if not 2 loads of laundry a day or it's just piled up crazy.

Bathrooms are fully done on Sat or Sun along with dusting.

Isn't that what most people do? This was teh way it was done for me growing up whether I was living with my grandparents or my parents. And of course all lawn work was done on Sat or Sun
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:52 PM
I'm not a crazed clean freak, kt.

So, no. My house is STILL cleaner than anyone else's I've been to save the OCDs (who are the stay-home parent) or childless couple. WAY cleaner than a single person's home. Including my H's, when he was single.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
LOL! I like to provide once a week service too!


Do you think I should up it to his 'requirement'? He told SH that he wanted me to spend three hours a day on cleaning, outside of regular DS of laundry, meals, and general upkeep.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:55 PM
I was just thinking about the chef services. My wife thought it would be nice to make my lunch one day. Of which I thanked her for. She decided to make my lunch the second day. I have no idea why since I have never asked her to. I think she just thought she was being nice. On the third day, I stopped her. I told her "lemme take care of my lunch."
Her: "Why? I can do it."
Me: "Because you're not making it the way I like it."
Her: "What's wrong with it."
Me: "You didn't way out the protein portion. And the romaine lettuce is too wet and in too large of pieces. The cucumber is chopped to small and you removed the skin. There wasn't near enough green olives in there and they werne't chopped. You used yellow onion instead of red onion and you left them too large of sections. I think you only put a half of abell peopper in there instead of a whole one. And there was too much blue cheese dressing and not near enough balsamic vinegar. And that's for starters."

So we went back to me making my lunches and all was happy again. She finally understood why it took me 30 min to prepare a meal for the next day.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:57 PM
So you are anal and you don't expect your wife to be so? Will you talk to my H?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 06:58 PM
I WILL SEND YOU HIS PHONE NUMBER!!!
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I'm not a crazed clean freak, kt.

So, no. My house is STILL cleaner than anyone else's I've been to save the OCDs (who are the stay-home parent) or childless couple. WAY cleaner than a single person's home. Including my H's, when he was single.


Oh. Well, maybe it's just traditional for me then to do it this way. And if I/we don't do this on a daily basis with having so many young children, the house looks dirty and cluttered. All the shoe scuffs on teh tile, kids getting food on the carpet even though we don't eat outside of the kitchen. I do know that during teh summer when I'm not working, the cleaning can take a good 2-3 hours. Of course it's 20 min here and 20 min there. Thankfully the 8 year old is big enough to take out the bathroom trashes and the 4 year old can pick up her own room now.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:01 PM
jeje...I can still scream on teh interwebz...

I don't really want you, kt, to counsel my H. The reason being is that you are not where I want to be in my relationship. I don't want a H who thinks it is fine if I go on a drinking party bus for the night without him. I want a more protective H than you are.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
I was just thinking about the chef services. My wife thought it would be nice to make my lunch one day. Of which I thanked her for. She decided to make my lunch the second day. I have no idea why since I have never asked her to. I think she just thought she was being nice. On the third day, I stopped her. I told her "lemme take care of my lunch."
Her: "Why? I can do it."
Me: "Because you're not making it the way I like it."
Her: "What's wrong with it."
Me: "You didn't way out the protein portion. And the romaine lettuce is too wet and in too large of pieces. The cucumber is chopped to small and you removed the skin. There wasn't near enough green olives in there and they werne't chopped. You used yellow onion instead of red onion and you left them too large of sections. I think you only put a half of abell peopper in there instead of a whole one. And there was too much blue cheese dressing and not near enough balsamic vinegar. And that's for starters."

So we went back to me making my lunches and all was happy again. She finally understood why it took me 30 min to prepare a meal for the next day.


Hmmm... Can anyone say OCD?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
So you are anal and you don't expect your wife to be so? Will you talk to my H?


lmao! No. And I don't really consider myself anal...hahahahaha!!! Really, CWMI, I'm pretty easy...physical intimacy a couple times a week and an hour or 2 a night where we just hang out and talk, laugh, throw water ballons at each other (jk on the water ballons) and I'm pretty satisfied. Basically her not love busting through AOs, interruptions, and DJs and it fills my love bank smile

Okay, I'll leave that comment alone. I started cleaning more because my wife has a DS EN and I wanted to meet her needs. So I started doing more around the house...dishes after supper, vaccumming after the dishes were done, folding laundry while watching evening TV, etc. It just got to be a routine.

I do most of the cooking because I love to cook. After supper, I usually tackle the kitchen while my wife bathes the kids and gets em ready for bed. She hates doing laundry, so I do that> I don't really like doing the bathroooms, so she usually does those on Sunday.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:08 PM
There is nothing wrong with my home. I would invite you in, and be proud of it. I already spend a couple of hours a day on the house, and my home is not cluttered in the least.

I'm not going to sweep and mop everyday, because it does not NEED it. My H needs it, so I told him to BUY it. But he wants it for free, or at my expense. Does that sound MB to you?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:08 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
jeje...I can still scream on teh interwebz...

I don't really want you, kt, to counsel my H. The reason being is that you are not where I want to be in my relationship. I don't want a H who thinks it is fine if I go on a drinking party bus for the night without him. I want a more protective H than you are.


And that's fine. I think everyone deserves to have the relationship they want/need. I don't think you'd be hip on your husband going and playing indoor soccer on the weekend nights. I think you reserve those for date nights.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1

Hmmm... Can anyone say OCD?


ha! Already been through this. And, yes, I was told I'm OCD about my meal preparations. And it's okay to me because I make them for myself. I realize I'm high maintenence when it comes to meal prep and so I don't ask others to do it.

I weigh out my food. I eat a certian number of fruits and vegetables a day. I have a daily intake of protein I want. I want my vegetables to be a certain size and I don't want too much dressing or it ruins the flavor of the food.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:15 PM
You have, though, kt. You had a thread about it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:15 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
I was just thinking about the chef services. My wife thought it would be nice to make my lunch one day. Of which I thanked her for. She decided to make my lunch the second day. I have no idea why since I have never asked her to. I think she just thought she was being nice. On the third day, I stopped her. I told her "lemme take care of my lunch."
Her: "Why? I can do it."
Me: "Because you're not making it the way I like it."
Her: "What's wrong with it."
Me: "You didn't way out the protein portion. And the romaine lettuce is too wet and in too large of pieces. The cucumber is chopped to small and you removed the skin. There wasn't near enough green olives in there and they werne't chopped. You used yellow onion instead of red onion and you left them too large of sections. I think you only put a half of abell peopper in there instead of a whole one. And there was too much blue cheese dressing and not near enough balsamic vinegar. And that's for starters."

So we went back to me making my lunches and all was happy again. She finally understood why it took me 30 min to prepare a meal for the next day.


Hmmm... Can anyone say OCD?


Me! Pick me! smile
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:21 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
[

Okay, I'll leave that comment alone. I started cleaning more because my wife has a DS EN and I wanted to meet her needs.


Okay, counsel me this, swami...my H says that he cleans for ME. I've told him that his cleaning is a LB to me, it is an annoying habit and results in AOs from him where he berates not only me but the children for being, in his words, 'filthy'.

But he still insists he does it for me.

So I won't have to.

Ya know, do something I wouldn't have done to begin with.

Is that good, iyho?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:25 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

I'm not going to sweep and mop everyday, because it does not NEED it. My H needs it, so I told him to BUY it. But he wants it for free, or at my expense. Does that sound MB to you?


That's fine. I have to sweep and mop or there is literally shoe scuff marks, food on the floor from supper. The main reason I sweep and mop (we don't have a large kitchen or dining room) is because I'm afraid my 2 year old will get sick from his mouth being on the floor or picking something up. So I take 4-5 min to sweep and mop the kitchen. I konw your husband likes teh chairs pushed in a certain way and all that and I think that's a bit much.

As far as what's reasonable pertaining to MB and domestic services is kind of up to each couple. I have no idea about buying or doing things for free. All I know is what I do and what has been done in my family and the friends I've visited as a kid and as an adult. Pretty standard was vacuumed living room, kitchen swept and mopped, counter tops cleaned off, dishes down, table wiped down and clean. Then any clutter or kids toys were returned to rooms rather than lying on the floor and bathrooms presentable if company came over (no dirty clothes on teh floor, no toothpaste all over teh sink).
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:33 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Okay, counsel me this, swami...my H says that he cleans for ME. I've told him that his cleaning is a LB to me, it is an annoying habit and results in AOs from him where he berates not only me but the children for being, in his words, 'filthy'.

But he still insists he does it for me.

So I won't have to.

Ya know, do something I wouldn't have done to begin with.

Is that good, iyho?



No. Cleaning is something that he’d have to do for himself if he were single. He doesn’t clean for you…he cleans because it’s just what has to be done when you live in a building. For me, I don’t clean FOR my wife. I clean because it has to be done and I clean because it fills an EN of my wife. I know she hates doing laundry and I don’t mind it. So I tackle the laundry because she hates it…it’s really a division of chores. Like with the kitchen, I do it because my wife would prefer to spend the time bathing the kids. So I tackle the kitchen so we can spend time together.

I don’t think any insulting should happen. I don’t think children should be insulted like that. And I don’t think a spouse should ever berate another spouse in front of the children. I also don’t like LBs. If I’m doing something that is an LB to my wife, I stop it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:35 PM
It's pretty standard at my house, too. Doesn't mean I deserve to be verbally beaten if a kid spit toothpaste on the sink and it was still there an hour later...

A day later, maybe, or clean it up yourself, hey that's a thought! And exactly what SH suggested.

In my house, I abhor clutter. I spend much of my time cleaning it up, or telling my kids to clean it up, since my detritus is books and they are shelved. My H's detritus is dust bunnies. Which he was convinced was caused by carpet.

Dust is from people.

So new dust is planted every day.

And he thinks I should keep on top of the DUST, instead of the PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT. I'm much more interested in people than the dust they make. However, he focuses on the dust. He has cleaned a table in our home and been BESIDE himself when a dust layer settled again. It just SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.

Yeah, good luck with that...six people + dog = daily dust.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:40 PM
lol, you mentioned the toothpaste. I was thinking to myself last night before I went to bed as I noticed some toothpaste on the counter top...if that's still there when I get home from work tomorrow, I'll wipe it up.

For some reason it just wasn't that important right then. And I seriously need to change the air filters and dust.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:54 PM
Why are we talking about DS again?

Our home could be SPOTLESS, not a mark on it, like nobody even lived in it, and my H would still hurt me with travel. So why bother? BTDT, ate myself full of resentment for it.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:55 PM
Thought I'd ask you guys..

How often do you have a company come out and vacuum out the duct work?

Is there a time of year that's better to have this done???

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 07:58 PM
Are you seriously cluttering up my thread with duct cleaning questions, you overtanned bs'er???
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:01 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Originally Posted By: writer1

Hmmm... Can anyone say OCD?


ha! Already been through this. And, yes, I was told I'm OCD about my meal preparations. And it's okay to me because I make them for myself. I realize I'm high maintenence when it comes to meal prep and so I don't ask others to do it.

I weigh out my food. I eat a certian number of fruits and vegetables a day. I have a daily intake of protein I want. I want my vegetables to be a certain size and I don't want too much dressing or it ruins the flavor of the food.


I guess that's fine, except it would probably be an LB for me if my H spent a great deal of time every night doing something like this. But then, that's probably because we have a 2-year-old and I would be the one who would have to watch her while he did it, and we already don't get enough UA time. So yeah, it might be a problem if my H spent 30 minutes every night making his lunch.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:02 PM
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Thought I'd ask you guys..

How often do you have a company come out and vacuum out the duct work?

Is there a time of year that's better to have this done???

Mr. Wondering


You're supposed to vacuum the duct work? Who knew?
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Why are we talking about DS again?

Our home could be SPOTLESS, not a mark on it, like nobody even lived in it, and my H would still hurt me with travel. So why bother? BTDT, ate myself full of resentment for it.


I'm kind of wondering about this too. What does this have to do with her issue with her H's traveling?
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:06 PM
I found this.

We will probably get ours done this year before spring starts. DS3 has asthma and it's probably good for us to keep the ducts cleaned out. North Texas has a long allergy season; something is always putting out pollen.

My wife likes for me to change the air filter once a month too.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:08 PM
bit, please don't feed my trolls. Start a new duct cleaning thread.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:09 PM
DUCT CLEANING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MARRIAGE IT IS HOME MAINTENANCE. FIND A HOME MAINTENANCE BOARD LIKE FLY LADY OR SOMETHING ELSE BUT IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS FURNACES GET THE EFF OFF MY THREAD I'M HURTING HERE AND YOU JACKHOLES ARE TALKING ABOUT CLEAN DUCTS.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Are you seriously cluttering up my thread with duct cleaning questions, you overtanned bs'er???


nevermind
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:14 PM
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Are you seriously cluttering up my thread with duct cleaning questions, you overtanned bs'er???


nevermind


I thought so.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:16 PM
Okay, to get back on track. CWMI, you don't want your H to travel for work and your H refuses to get a job that doesn't require him to travel.

So, does anyone have any suggestions about where she ought to go from here?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:18 PM
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Thought I'd ask you guys..

How often do you have a company come out and vacuum out the duct work?

Is there a time of year that's better to have this done???

Mr. Wondering

What's duct work?
dance2
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
[

Okay, I'll leave that comment alone. I started cleaning more because my wife has a DS EN and I wanted to meet her needs.


Okay, counsel me this, swami...my H says that he cleans for ME. I've told him that his cleaning is a LB to me, it is an annoying habit and results in AOs from him where he berates not only me but the children for being, in his words, 'filthy'.

But he still insists he does it for me.

So I won't have to.

Ya know, do something I wouldn't have done to begin with.

Is that good, iyho?


Hey, CWMI, have you taken a look at the Harley plan for dividing up domestic support tasks? I think it might help out a lot here. (We're going through it ourselves, at the moment. smile )
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:31 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
[

Okay, I'll leave that comment alone. I started cleaning more because my wife has a DS EN and I wanted to meet her needs.


Okay, counsel me this, swami...my H says that he cleans for ME. I've told him that his cleaning is a LB to me, it is an annoying habit and results in AOs from him where he berates not only me but the children for being, in his words, 'filthy'.

But he still insists he does it for me.

So I won't have to.

Ya know, do something I wouldn't have done to begin with.

Is that good, iyho?


Hey, CWMI, have you taken a look at the Harley plan for dividing up domestic support tasks? I think it might help out a lot here. (We're going through it ourselves, at the moment. smile )


Hey, markos, we did! Through SH himself. He said for us to make lists detailing what was important to each us, and each of us do what was on our lists.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:34 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Okay, to get back on track. CWMI, you don't want your H to travel for work and your H refuses to get a job that doesn't require him to travel.

So, does anyone have any suggestions about where she ought to go from here?


Plan D! Plan D! Pick me! smile
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:36 PM
I'm curious to see if your detaching plan will motivate him to quit traveling.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:37 PM
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Thought I'd ask you guys..

How often do you have a company come out and vacuum out the duct work?

Is there a time of year that's better to have this done???

Mr. Wondering

What's duct work?
dance2


Duct work is where they stuff people who are useless for any other purpose.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:40 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: writer1
Okay, to get back on track. CWMI, you don't want your H to travel for work and your H refuses to get a job that doesn't require him to travel.

So, does anyone have any suggestions about where she ought to go from here?


Plan D! Plan D! Pick me! smile


Well, considering the fact that you have quite a few young children, I was thinking something a little less jarring. But it is your life.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:42 PM
Plan B would seem to be next. I never had the guts to go there. But that is what MB says to do when you no longer have the strength to continue Plan A. The idea is to preserve what little love you have left for your spouse. Sounds like CWMI has dangerously little left.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:43 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
I'm curious to see if your detaching plan will motivate him to quit traveling.


It won't. Counseling hasn't worked, talking hasn't worked, coaching with SH hasn't worked, improved relations from the removal of it hasn't worked, threats of punishment haven't worked, nope, have no delusions that detachment will work.

Except for me.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Hey, markos, we did! Through SH himself. He said for us to make lists detailing what was important to each us, and each of us do what was on our lists.


Okay, I've been wondering about this. What if you have a truly slothenly spouse who pretty much puts nothing on his/her list? Obviously, there are things that simply HAVE to be done. No one can live (healthily) without ever cleaning anything. So what do you do in this case? Does the spouse who actually cares about not living in a pigpen have to do absolutely EVERYTHING, simply because the person they're married to doesn't think any work around the house is important?

Please note, I'm not talking about my own M. But my mother is extremely lazy when it comes to housework and I grew up in a very filthy, unsanitary environment, so I know those people exist. I certainly don't think the answer to such a problem would be to make the spouse who does care about their living environment do everything while the other person contributes nothing at all. So what would be the solution when dealing with such a person?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: writer1
Okay, to get back on track. CWMI, you don't want your H to travel for work and your H refuses to get a job that doesn't require him to travel.

So, does anyone have any suggestions about where she ought to go from here?


Plan D! Plan D! Pick me! smile


Well, considering the fact that you have quite a few young children, I was thinking something a little less jarring. But it is your life.


Well, I'm trying the whole NGAF (Not giving a ...) but he's been blowing up my phone...I still don't GAF, but this would be a lot easier if he would leave me alone like he asked me to do for him. I could go for years without GAF, and just nod and smile and buy groceries and do my thing...problem is he wants me to GAF about him while tolerating him NGAF about me, and that will not happen.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:53 PM
Originally Posted By: writer1
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Hey, markos, we did! Through SH himself. He said for us to make lists detailing what was important to each us, and each of us do what was on our lists.


Okay, I've been wondering about this. What if you have a truly slothenly spouse who pretty much puts nothing on his/her list? Obviously, there are things that simply HAVE to be done. No one can live (healthily) without ever cleaning anything. So what do you do in this case? Does the spouse who actually cares about not living in a pigpen have to do absolutely EVERYTHING, simply because the person they're married to doesn't think any work around the house is important?

Please note, I'm not talking about my own M. But my mother is extremely lazy when it comes to housework and I grew up in a very filthy, unsanitary environment, so I know those people exist. I certainly don't think the answer to such a problem would be to make the spouse who does care about their living environment do everything while the other person contributes nothing at all. So what would be the solution when dealing with such a person?


OMG, I hope like hell you're not talking about how I must be. My H is OCD. There is a far, far, cry between OCD and filth. SH recognizes it, without ever stepping into your home.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Duped - 01/03/11 08:59 PM
Sounds like you are giving him the "silent treatment">

This is a hostile game to punish a spouse and try and get your way. It is a power game.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 09:10 PM
Really? It sounds like I'm not LBing him, not talking talking talking or getting in his space, like he asked me not to.

I'm not ignoring him, every time he has approached I've told him why I'm not interested. "You want breathing room, and I'm giving it to you. If you want me to be in love with you, stop traveling. Good night!"
Posted By: writer1 Re: Duped - 01/03/11 09:22 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: writer1
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Hey, markos, we did! Through SH himself. He said for us to make lists detailing what was important to each us, and each of us do what was on our lists.


Okay, I've been wondering about this. What if you have a truly slothenly spouse who pretty much puts nothing on his/her list? Obviously, there are things that simply HAVE to be done. No one can live (healthily) without ever cleaning anything. So what do you do in this case? Does the spouse who actually cares about not living in a pigpen have to do absolutely EVERYTHING, simply because the person they're married to doesn't think any work around the house is important?

Please note, I'm not talking about my own M. But my mother is extremely lazy when it comes to housework and I grew up in a very filthy, unsanitary environment, so I know those people exist. I certainly don't think the answer to such a problem would be to make the spouse who does care about their living environment do everything while the other person contributes nothing at all. So what would be the solution when dealing with such a person?


OMG, I hope like hell you're not talking about how I must be. My H is OCD. There is a far, far, cry between OCD and filth. SH recognizes it, without ever stepping into your home.


Absolutely not!

I had this question when you first mentioned Dr. Harley's advice about chores, and I've been wondering about it ever since.

I was in no insinuating that you didn't think that any housekeeping was necessary. Sorry for the confusion.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/03/11 09:35 PM
Steve's advice about that was probably the only positive about our sessions. He does not bitch about the house anymore. He does still square the chairs and sofas and tables as soon as he walks in the house, and I typically respond, "I tried. I know how you like it, and I really did try to make it so." And he gives me his BS about how difficult he knows he is, and he appreciates it, and I feel like carp.


And more and more, I understand...
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 01/03/11 10:11 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Hey, markos, we did! Through SH himself. He said for us to make lists detailing what was important to each us, and each of us do what was on our lists.



Okay, I think that's step 1 and 2, or just step 1. There's more steps after that. smile
Posted By: Deacon_Blues Re: Duped - 01/04/11 12:25 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Steve's advice about that was probably the only positive about our sessions. He does not bitch about the house anymore. He does still square the chairs and sofas and tables as soon as he walks in the house, and I typically respond, "I tried. I know how you like it, and I really did try to make it so." And he gives me his BS about how difficult he knows he is, and he appreciates it, and I feel like carp.


And more and more, I understand...

I feel for you on this. My husband has some strong OCD tendencies that are very difficult to live with. It has taken me twenty years (and a counselor) to objectively recognize that things like him pulling the bandaid wrapper out of the trash to put it in the recycling are not really about me but about him. However, since he has a very black and white idea of how the world "should" be (chairs squared?), it makes me (in his eyes) wrong because bandaid wrappers SHOULD go in the recycling. So while I understand that it gives him the heebie-jeebies on a massive scale just knowing it's there, it is very very very hard to live with. I haven't folded a pair of his socks in 19 years because he told me one too many times that I did it wrong, wasn't matching them by color, age AND thickness. At which point I developed a severe case of blue/black/brown color-blindness that remains uncured to this day.

I'm unclear, though, from some of your posts if you find this stuff more tolerable when it isn't COMBINED WITH the traveling? Sometimes you speak of that in-between period being a peaceful one (although presumably his behaviors in that respect have been consistent throughout), and sometimes it seems like these things are dealbreakers unto themselves.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Duped - 01/04/11 01:06 AM
CWMI, I read your thread but don't often comment because I feel I wouldn't know how to help. I do feel for you. I do not have things like you to deal with, but I know the pain of the ONE thing you are dying for from your spouse being the ONE thing they won't do (or stop doing). I know that hurts.

I also know there comes a point when it has gone on so long that - at least for a season - the only thing you can think to do is detach so you won't say the really angry things you wish you could say. yeah, I'm terrible enough to admit to having angry thoughts sometimes....the horror smile

I have heard people, namely quoting Harley himself, say over and over that UA time is paramount and that couples shouldn't travel away from each other. So it seems to me that what you are wanting is MB 101 type stuff. I'm sorry that it isn't happening.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 01/04/11 03:51 PM
There is no love left. Plan B now. Or live in misery until one of you snaps. Your choice. but if you stay, remember that your unhappiness is not your H's fault. It is by your own choice.

As you know, I have chosen to stay in an unhappy marriage for years. I do not suggest you follow my path.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 01/04/11 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
I'm curious to see if your detaching plan will motivate him to quit traveling.


It won't. Counseling hasn't worked, talking hasn't worked, coaching with SH hasn't worked, improved relations from the removal of it hasn't worked, threats of punishment haven't worked, nope, have no delusions that detachment will work.

Except for me.


Forgive me if I missed it, but is there a recent incident that has caused you to be so upset....did he tell you he is going to travel or do more evening events?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/04/11 04:27 PM
Yes, SW. More events, more travel. Who was it, Jackblack? who took me to task for not being happy after my H said he would tell his boss NO MORE TRAVEL, asked why I wasn't happy and I said because I didn't believe him?

I was right not to believe him. here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2459790&page=41
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/06/11 01:49 AM
CWMI,

Do you believe your husband's perspective is more problematic for your family than just the events/travel issue?

I have to admit that your post about him shutting the hotel room lights off and making everyone go to bed at 7 pm during his New Orleans jaunt really bothered me. His level of detachment toward his own kids is disturbing. It was down-right mean for him to do that. There was no reason for it.

Don't you feel like you are the one keeping the relationship between him and the kids going? What type of father is he to his children at home? Does he engage them in healthy and fun ways? Or are they kinda like "just there" to him?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/06/11 01:29 PM
Quote:
Do you believe your husband's perspective is more problematic for your family than just the events/travel issue?


Yes. There are many problems, and his perspective that recreational companionship is something you get from friends, not spouses, is a biggie. It's difficult to deal with when I think your romantic partner should also be your best friend and favorite companion, and he thinks the nature of the very relationship makes that an impossibility. Like you shouldn't be friends with a lover. Weird.

He'll snuggle with the kids while watching TV, play computer games with them, he's not all detached or angry. I have my moments where I'm thinking, "Ugh, can I have a little time to myself???" too, where I just want them to settle down and leave me be, so it's hard to condemn him when really, I get it...four kids is a lot to handle, and even though I've handled it mostly by myself as the SAHM, I do try to think of what it is like to work all day and come home to NOT QUIET. lol.

I do want him to do something about his anger, and not just because it's hurtful to all of us when he AOs, but because of his perspective that you can't love someone and be angry at them at the same time. That hurts worse than any old AO.

He read this entire thread the other night (Monday), and hasn't said a WORD about it except that he's having lunch with his boss today to tell him, fer realz, that travel is an absolute no-go. I so want to believe him this time. I'm such a sucker.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Duped - 01/06/11 03:16 PM
Recently, my DH read some posts I made on a forum. Because I didn't have the fear of rejection factor, I had been a lot more....blunt about my feelings. When DH read it, his first instinct was to be hurt and mad....but after that settled and he really started processing just what he read.....some things clicked that didn't seem to click when the two of us talked. Maybe that will happen for your DH. I hope so.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/06/11 08:52 PM
Ugh. Who knows. He called to say that it happened, he had the lunch meeting, it went well, he told boss that he promised me that he would not do any travel and he's not going to hurt me with it anymore.

But he also said that the old co-worker of his who wanted me to do his taxes last year called him to ask if I'd do them this year, after I refused to do them for him last year because I don't like the guy, he was giving my H VERY BAD advice and was the one who took him in when he moved out on us in the middle of the night. I want that guy far, far away from my family. And H knows this. But asked me on his behalf anyway. And when I said, "I refused to do it for him last year, why would he think I'd do it this year?" he started pressuring me. That's why the guy didn't ask me, right? He has (or had) my phone number and my email addy. No, he went through my H because I would say no, but if he has the chance to make my H think I'm a b*, he'll take it. Jerk. Anyway, it's his and one other guy's, so I doubled the price that H&R would charge and told H if they'll pay it, I'll do it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/06/11 09:29 PM
And scratch that. I emailed the dude and asked him to not go through my H again, to deal with me directly. So he asked me, and I told him no, just like last year, and asked him to remember it for next year so he doesn't inadvertently start any arguments between my H and I again. Ugh.

H is po'd...thinks I threw away money, I asked him if money was more important than my feelings and he said no, so I asked him why was he pressuring me and saying, "Think of it like this: it's someone you don't like, so you may as well take their money."

H said, Why didn't you tell me no to begin with? I said I did! I did say no, not interested, don't like the guy, don't want to do anything for him. Then came the money-from-people-you-don't-like comment, then the guilt trip about cigarettes and how much they cost.

I really don't need this today. I handled this wrong, I should have stuck with the solid no I started with.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 01/07/11 12:18 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I should have stuck with the solid no I started with.

Indeed.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/08/11 11:21 PM
Oh, CWMI, there are so many boundary issues in the way you and your DH handle things. Good that you set the ex co-worker straight, but to bad it wasn't done as a united front...you and DH together telling the dude you aren't interested in doing business with him.

Your poor hubby definitely received mixed messages from you. But you get that, so no 2 x 4's.

About my earlier question regarding DH and his children, you answered tv/snuggle time and computer games. There has to be more, right? I'm asking what hands-on activities does he consistently do with each child and with the kids collectively? I'm trying to get a better view of what is going on.

Also, you seem like you aren't sure if your DH is being honest about the travel conversation with his boss. Ask your H to tell his boss that you will be calling to say "thank you" for being understanding of the travel issue. Have him also ask, "What will be a good time for my DW to call." Lovingly make it clear to H that the boss will be getting a thank you call from you, so you want to know when it's convenient for the boss,that if not, you'll have to stop by the office to say thanks. Heck, even better, maybe you should run by the office to say a personal thanks and bring them lunch.

I'm suggesting this because you and DH need to have an united front in your marriage. From reading your thread, I don't get the impression that you and your H even put on a show of being a couple united, standing steadfast against outside forces.

I think both of you are afraid to say/do something out of fear the other will get frustrated/angry/offended. The individual boundaries aren't firmly established. A "no" can become a "yes" and vice versa, for both of you.

That leaves you in a very weak position with each other and to outside forces. He doesn't know when he can absolutely say "yes" or "no" personally for himself, or for you, if need be. And the same applies to you with him.

You're going to have to begin with you and put in place a policy of absolute consistency at first. This will empower your DH to stand firm because you are firm in your approach. He won't be afraid that he's going to make a wrong choice that will ultimately upset you. He will know right where you stand on things.

He does seem to be trying, I give him mega credit if this is the case.

Steering the M in a different direction takes time and practice. You as a couple have the knowledge to do it. If you both can communicate with each other better and remain firm in your resolve, it will get better.
Posted By: kerala Re: Duped - 01/09/11 06:07 AM
Originally Posted By: RareMamaJewel
Also, you seem like you aren't sure if your DH is being honest about the travel conversation with his boss. Ask your H to tell his boss that you will be calling to say "thank you" for being understanding of the travel issue. Have him also ask, "What will be a good time for my DW to call." Lovingly make it clear to H that the boss will be getting a thank you call from you, so you want to know when it's convenient for the boss,that if not, you'll have to stop by the office to say thanks. Heck, even better, maybe you should run by the office to say a personal thanks and bring them lunch.



1. Shouldn't this be POJA'd?
2. The motive is also pretty transparent, which seems to contradict the requirement of O/H and possibly to be a SD. (I'm talking specifically about calling your spouse's boss to discuss his or her terms of employment, not the boundary of no travel).

If my spouse did this, it would be a big LB.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/09/11 05:14 PM
RMJ, the most telling thing for me about the whole travel issue/conversation was that H was a bit testy the first day. By the end of the second day he was jovial again, affectionate, so I mentioned that he seemed in a much better mood, why was that? and he said that he felt much better having gotten it off his chest in having that convo w/his boss.

We don't have a united front, and that is huge, you are correct. He still, to this day, insists that travel *should not* be a problem, and told his boss as much...what he told me he told boss was that the two of them could believe all day long that it was not an issue but *I* am hurt by it, so he is not going to hurt me with it anymore. I did ask him, so you think it shouldn't be a problem...has it ever NOT been a problem? No, he admitted, it has always been a problem FOR ME. I asked him, it hasn't been a problem for you then? He said no. So I said, it's never bothered you to upset me then? He totally separates my feelings from his actions, even though I know he's been educated to the contrary.

No, I can't say he does many 'activities' with the kids...occasionally, but nothing on a regular basis...mostly it's him letting them help him with his projects. He'll assist with bedtime rituals and things like that. He just took two of them to help him get a load of wood in prep for a snowstorm heading our way. He'll be with them this afternoon while I'm at a babyshower. We all went to a friends' house last night for movies, pizza, and games.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/10/11 05:32 AM
I would think that you would be happy that he did have this talk with his boss and has agrees/decided on no more travel. That is why we stop LBs... because it hurts our spouse, not because of how the one committing LBs feels. Dr. Harley has stated that it's easier to change action than feelings.

I think that's porn example come to mind because I read a lot ofof threads on here where the wife is being hurt by the husbands porn viewing. The husband has to stop watching porn because he understands that it hurts the wic an therefore hurts the marriage. Ho he personally feels about the subject isn't really the point.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/10/11 03:58 PM
kt, what I was saying was that he hasn't bothered to stop before because he doesn't see our arguments about it as a problem for him. Me being hurt by his actions have not been, and still aren't, a problem for him. It's the lack of empathy and lack of ability to understand how other people are affected by your choices. If he can behave his way out of that, and really REALLY start considering me and the kids, for the long term, then that's wonderful. Like the porn example, the H has to CARE that he's hurting the wife and marriage, or he will not be motivated to stop the behavior.

If I am offended that he presented it to his boss as uniting in belief with the bossman and I'm just a naggy harpy who is tying his hands on the issue, then I'm offended, and I don't think that's an irrational feeling given the long history. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy he finally got it out there, just a bit bugged that he said he did that a long time ago, and a bit apprehensive that this time is a lie, too. Boy who cried wolf and all that...you keep lying about the same thing over and over, and people end up not believing you when you're being truthful cause your credibility is shot.

So...I'll believe it when I see it in a couple of weeks.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/10/11 10:36 PM
My apologies. I misunderstood. I really do hope he goes through this time and sticks with what he said he'd do.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 01/11/11 12:32 AM
cwmi, do you think this is his way of sticking it to you? Like a power struggle? It amazes me how effective he is at flabbergasting you. I would love to see you detangle yourself from all that.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/14/11 03:42 AM
Kerala,

MB principles would say POJA, but CWMI has been put into a position of either being lied to by her DH or being told if she doesn't like the way things are that D is acceptable to her DH. So she isn't very trusting of her DH right now. If you read her response to Kilted, you can see that she still wonders if her DH is lying about speaking with his boss.

I figured that her DH will be more truthful if he knows there is going to be a certain level of verification and that she will know the truth sooner than later.

She's ready to call it quits and her DH doesn't seem overly concerned about it. CWMI's lovebank is busted. frown
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/14/11 04:00 AM
CWMI,

Gotta say in my situation, my DH has severe detachment (diagnosed by more than 1 counselor and attributed to the violence he witnessed as a child). For many years, if something upset or bothered me or our kids, it was our "problem" to deal with. With my own IC, I came to the conclusion that my problem was that I was there in my M. She agreed and told me when I state my negative feelings or issues that involve him, my DH doesn't see himself as part of equation. The issue is mine to own because in his mind it has no bearing on him nor he on it.

I was just reading your response to KT to my DH, he was able to jokingly laugh that detachment is like,
"If I don't have time for my emotions, what makes you think I have time for yours?"

I'm not saying your DH has detachment. I'm no counselor. But your thread resonates with me, so I'd thought I'd share my perspective with you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/14/11 03:41 PM
RMJ, are you saying that you match his detachment with detachment of your own?

I am a fiercely loyal and loving person...on the flip side, I can also be fiercely unloving and completely not give a hoot (knock the dust from my shoes, walk away w/o a second thought). I don't think I'm capable of being in a marriage where I am detached from my spouse without finding an attachment elsewhere.

We've been snowed in all week. H didn't return to work until yesterday, so he was here for four straight days and it was really nice.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 01/14/11 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
RMJ, are you saying that you match his detachment with detachment of your own?

I am a fiercely loyal and loving person...on the flip side, I can also be fiercely unloving and completely not give a hoot (knock the dust from my shoes, walk away w/o a second thought). I don't think I'm capable of being in a marriage where I am detached from my spouse without finding an attachment elsewhere.

We've been snowed in all week. H didn't return to work until yesterday, so he was here for four straight days and it was really nice.


I understood RMJ to be saying that her problem was that she was/is present in her marriage and her dh is not. That if they were both more detached there would not be a problem. ? Don't know....curious now to hear what she says.

CWMI in my previous marriage I came to the conclusion I was never going to get what I wanted from him. I did detach somewhat...and I focused on other areas of my life....other people...while maintaining good boundaries with other men. If he hadn't cheated on me I would never have divorced him. However, I can not believe how wonderful a good relationship is. It does make me a little angry that I went without a good marriage for so many years. But I did what I felt was right, so I don't regret my decision to stay so long.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/14/11 10:31 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
RMJ, are you saying that you match his detachment with detachment of your own?

I am a fiercely loyal and loving person...on the flip side, I can also be fiercely unloving and completely not give a hoot (knock the dust from my shoes, walk away w/o a second thought). I don't think I'm capable of being in a marriage where I am detached from my spouse without finding an attachment elsewhere.

We've been snowed in all week. H didn't return to work until yesterday, so he was here for four straight days and it was really nice.


Oh, I definitely don't match his detachment, but I don't fret over his detachment like I used to, now that we know what is happening with him. Plus, he's working on trying to "feel" his emotions. As a child he learned to "stuff" his emotions as a survival/defense mechanism. From an MB perspective, he has a difficult time with O and H because he denies to himself what he is truly feeling. In the past few months, he's been able to begin acknowledging to himself just how angry he is over a number of things, where at one time he would have denied anger at all. Kinda like, "nothing's wrong, so there's nothing to deal with". But oh boy, he is annngggrryy. (Not necessarily at me.)

Like you I am loyal and loving. I refuse to be in a M with someone who is detached but not working on self. Fortunately, my DH is working on it. It is an extremely slow process, but given his experiences, completely understandable. I did have to create a safe environment where he can express himself freely and have to admit it hasn't been easy. MB has some great techniques on how to avoid LB's, DJ's etc and that has helped immensely in creating a safe place for my DH.

I personally would never recommend intentional detachment by a partner unless it's for Plan B, S or D. Intentional detachment, from what I've learned here, would be a slippery slope to an affair. I guess the MB principles are aimed at couples who are fully capable of intimacy as spouses. With some disorders, true intimacy is a challenge or might not even be attainable. In my M, my DH wants the emotional intimacy and he's willing to work hard to have it. For me, I accept that what my husband gives me emotionally is a big thing for him. It might not seem like a lot to me, but it is for him. That means very much to me.

With my DH's detachment, it's like comparing someone who is healthy to someone who is on oxygen. A healthy person can do everyday tasks with no problem, but a person on oxygen becomes exerted by doing normal activities. It's like that, but in the emotional realm.

What do you want CWMI? You mentioned earlier in your thread that Dr H recommended your DH see someone else. What if your DH is given a diagnosis of some type of personality disorder? What, if anything, are you willing to deal with in that spectrum? (you don't have to answer these ??? here, but they are questions an IC would ask you to think about)

For me in my own situation, I have decided to make a go of it even though my DH struggles with detachment. I had to figure out for myself what I was willing to deal with in my M and define what would be to me, a love bank attaboy, a love buster, a DJ, etc.

It's nice to hear that you enjoyed the time your hubby was home. That's a very positive sign.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/14/11 10:44 PM
Oh Smiley, I'm sending the love.

There was a point that I knew if my DH didn't make some internal changes, that we didn't have a chance. I don't want a mediocre M, I want a wonderful M. My DH wants that too. He was willing to get help for himself so we can have a better M. It wasn't easy on him to rehash childhood stuff, do EMDR,and still face more EMDR. But he's willing to do it to improve himself and be a better DH and father. This kept my love bank open for business.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/14/11 11:04 PM
What I want is POJA, UA, RH, MB101 stuff, I haven't quite hit my threshold of enough to demand IC/whatever of addressing his issues of IB/detachment. He does a good job of pushing me *sofar* and then backing off and giving me just enough to sate me.

I'm hopeful, but guarded.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 01/15/11 09:45 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
What I want is POJA, UA, RH, MB101 stuff, I haven't quite hit my threshold of enough to demand IC/whatever of addressing his issues of IB/detachment. He does a good job of pushing me *sofar* and then backing off and giving me just enough to sate me.

I'm hopeful, but guarded.



I don't know if you should label his IB along with detachment, unless Dr H said it was that. But you'll know when you've had enough. Unfortunately when that happens, your love bank will likely be closed. So be very careful.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/18/11 06:42 PM
Okay, ick. I picked up the package of info on getting a Hope Mentor through our church, and it has questions about my parent's relationship, to me and to each other. I'm okay with answering, but don't want to spend my time with someone 'sorting that out', I get it already, my father was a [censored] and my mother a ho.

I want to write on the front page, "I would like a female mentor of 60-80 years of age who has been in a happy marriage of 40+ years."

Should I? smile
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 01/19/11 03:23 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I want to write on the front page, "I would like a female mentor of 60-80 years of age who has been in a happy marriage of 40+ years."

Should I? smile


You could. But their idea of a happy marriage might not be yours. For example, let's say my wife and I had been married for 45 years happily. However, you're not hip that my wife goes out with her friends on occassion and I'm okay with that. And I go to a once-a-year coaching conference out of town that leaves me away from home for 4 days at a time. So in that scenario, even though my wife and I have been married for that many years and very happily, you wouldn't want the type of marriage my wife and I have.

Not saying there aren't a ton of things you couldn't learn and pick up from the wisdom of being married happily that long. But you may not agree with the marriage being what you'd consider happy for yourself.


Just food for thought.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 01/20/11 12:15 AM
Excellent point KT. The essence of MB is to become the person that your spouse wants to be married to. Not the person you want to be married to. Or the person someone else's spouse might want to be married to. The tricky part is to find ways to be enthusiastic about becoming that person.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Duped - 01/20/11 01:22 AM
CWMI, could you attach a little note saying you have reconciled/come to terms with your FOO and need support in other ways? I am all for letting a counselor mentor know what YOU need. When you said that about 60-80 years old, the first thing I thought of was the passage in Titus 2.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 01/20/11 02:26 PM
kt--I keep thinking about what our pastor Jeff said about seeking counsel from people who already are where you want to be. So yes, you are correct, I would not want the counsel of someone who is in a place where her and her H have separate social lives and are happy with that, because it's not where I want to be.

T, that sounds do-able.

I do think his reading this thread has made an impact on him and his attitude.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Duped - 01/20/11 02:31 PM
I had a pastor Jeff once....pastor Jeff's tend to be pretty smart.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/25/11 11:34 PM
I decided to forgo the mentor. Possibly a big mistake. Possibly a big mistake averted. When in doubt, do nothing, right?

VENT WARNING


My H is sick with a terrible strain of flu, like I had a year ago Christmas. I love him, I care for him, he's in the bed right now after being tended to with food, beverage, and drugs.

And I'm furious/weepy/conflicted. I'm still mad about being left for dead a year ago Christmas when I was 103 temp and could barely move and he yelled at me about being a controlling B for asking him to stay home from breakfast with the guys, and punishing me for that by staying gone from 7am-8pm the entire week following.

I told him that still bothered me. He said he was sorry but what did I expect him to do then, stay home? I said that not yelling at me would have helped, and yes, being home would have helped, too. It would take so long to get into the conversations we've had over the last several months, but the end result is...I've had no REAL apologies. He still justifies, he still gets defensive, he still thinks that everything was beyond his control. TOTAL DJ, but I'm jealous that he has a spouse who takes (ETA: CARE, I mean care of him, and I most certainly mean when one is unable to care for self or others, i.e. when down with illness) of him, and I don't. But I haven't been that sick, so maybe? Ugh, I don't want to get that sick to find out.

Next vent, less painful for me, kinda wth:

He has put his foot down on travel. No more! YEAH! I agreed to events so long as they are not frequent, one every 3-4 months outside of work hours (most are in). So last weekend, he went to one, a shooting shindig with rich peeps, and came home and complained that he had to stay with the cars and wasn't able to shoot.

And what do I find on teh interwebz?

A piccie of my H shooting at the event.

He said, "Well, I meant I didn't get to shoot skeet with the rest, I did get to fire off a couple of rounds at the end. I'm sorry you misunderstood what I meant by saying I didn't get to shoot."

Um...okay...number one, why lie about that? and number two, bwa-ha-ha, do I look stupid? Has he totally missed my literal interpretations over the years, and thought I believed that you can shoot a gun but not be shooting? Bwa-ha-ha!

"I had a drink, but I wasn't drinking."

"I drove the car, but I wasn't driving."

"I shot the gun, but I wasn't shooting."

"I lied, but I'm not a liar!"

/vent

Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 12:15 AM
I'm voting 'born liar', what do ya'll think?

I mean really, "I did shoot, but I wasn't shooting," kind of does me in.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:01 AM
Do you "love and care" for your husband because it's "love and care" for it's own sake? Or are you doing it because you expect something in return?

Are you angry at him for the way he treated you? Or are you angry at *you* for putting up with it?

Unfortunately, your husband does not see any problem with how he goes through life. He thinks he is correct in his approach to situations. Even after doing MB counseling, he still sees no need to meet your needs, much less your wants. I think that's why Dr Harley recommended that your DH see an IC. It's not normal for someone who wants to be married to reject outright what his or her spouse needs and refuse to negotiate a solution that makes both partners happy.

Your husband doesn't have any problems, CWMI (from his perspective). You have the issues, (from his perspective), so you are the one with the problem. And the problem is that you are there. He doesn't change. In fact, he treats you poorly, you (from his perspective) cry and whine and gripe about his treatment of you, and then you turn around and do those very same 'nice' things for him that he refuses to do for you.

If you've given him food, beverage and drugs, don't cry over it. You chose it of your own free will and out of love. He likely thinks your being a B and throwing it in his face for revenge, not because you love him.

What you get from him is what you get, kwim? I can't understand why you didn't leave the kids with him and head out for a girls night out. No food, bevs, or drugs, just a "I've gotta go, it's girl's night out". And if he got mad about it, well, then you'd know what a jerk he is and if he didn't get mad, well, then you'd know he is just plain ol' detached.

I can't say he's a liar. People have different versions of truth. What's his? If you aren't going out for the weekend, then put his idea of truth to the test. Next time he is due for food, bevs, drugs, get the item ready, but leave it some place that he has to get up and get it. Tell him something like, "I got your gatorade for you, it's in the cup on the kitchen bar."

If he accepts that as getting it for him, then maybe you don't have a liar on your hands, rather, someone who sees things differently than you. If he calls bogus and says that because you didn't bring him the item, it means that you didn't get it for him, then you'll know he's a liar.

I'm sharing this because he might just have a strange approach to truth. No better time to find out his "truth" style than when he's in need due to the flu.

but you really need a definite conclusion on his truth style...he could be that clueless.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:14 AM
RMJ, he doesn't care if I bring him anything or not. I want to take care of him, because I love him and I promised to take care of him. It's what I do...someone I love goes down, and I start lifting.

I thought about taking off, and then thought that the only reason I would do that would be vindictive. And I don't want to be anywhere else anyway. Why would I abandon my kids with an incapacitated parent??? Then I really get angry...

I wouldn't lift a finger to prove to anyone that I'm a B. Do people really do that? Help people so they can throw it in their face? I don't get that kind of thinking. I'm way too lazy to expend energy doing something that I could convey with a flip of a finger.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:23 AM
Quote:
I'm way too lazy to expend energy doing something that I could convey with a flip of a finger.


rotflmao

Sounds like your resentment is reaching critical levels. Go back and read your very first post on this thread. What exactly has changed?

You can either continue to exist with things like they are or do something different.

What would different look like?
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:31 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
RMJ, he doesn't care if I bring him anything or not. I want to take care of him, because I love him and I promised to take care of him. It's what I do...someone I love goes down, and I start lifting.
Maybe he doesn't realize the "caring" that is a natural part of love. Healthy people care for one another when someone is down.

I thought about taking off, and then thought that the only reason I would do that would be vindictive. And I don't want to be anywhere else anyway. Why would I abandon my kids with an incapacitated parent??? Then I really get angry...

Hmmm, digging a bit deeper. When you were sick, did he just "leave you alone" to care for yourself? Or did he also leave the kids with you while you were incapacitated? btw, I don't think you should leave the kids, I'm just trying to gauge the situation

I wouldn't lift a finger to prove to anyone that I'm a B. Do people really do that? Help people so they can throw it in their face? I don't get that kind of thinking. I'm way too lazy to expend energy doing something that I could convey with a flip of a finger.
yep, those 'martyr' types do things and throw it in peoples faces. it isn't done outta love. yuck!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:45 AM
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
Quote:
I'm way too lazy to expend energy doing something that I could convey with a flip of a finger.


rotflmao

Sounds like your resentment is reaching critical levels. Go back and read your very first post on this thread. What exactly has changed?

You can either continue to exist with things like they are or do something different.

What would different look like?


stickout

He got rid of travel. That's changed. For realz this time, because the last trip he was supposed to be on was a couple of weeks ago. And he was here, telling me his boss's boss told him that H's stand on it was 'making the right decision.'
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 02:03 AM
RMJ, to answer your initial q, I'm angry at him for refusing to take care of me and ours when I asked him to. He wouldn't ask me to take care of him. He would assume I would take care of the kids. I would assume he wouldn't take care of anything except what was important to him at the moment...work, dust, refrigerator gaskets...so when I told him I NEEDED him to take care of people and he yelled at me about it, yeah, I got angry and today brought it back to mind, because I know how he feels, and I would never want him to feel that bad AND be piled with hatred and neglect on top.

I can't imagine what kind of human being could do that.

I can...but he passed a polygraph.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:06 PM
Why are you holding onto the resentment from something that happened a year ago?
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Duped - 02/26/11 01:48 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Why are you holding onto the resentment from something that happened a year ago?
I will take a swing at this one.

Because when you are sick/weak/hurting/emotionally burdoned you are vunerable>sp? in ways you are not used to operating by. It is scary, even if you admit it to yourself or not.

To realize that your spouse disregaurds your pain and discredits your condition only erodes basic foundation survial trust.
(If he/she dumps me in my current state for the "little things", what is going to happen in a serious scanario?)
It is no coincidence that the vows say "In sickness and in health."

This situation taps into some deep emotions. I understand it... but I agree KT, this "vent" may be needed to be looked at more closely by CWMI and dealt with.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/26/11 08:07 PM
I totally understand what your husband meant.

To me, the fun of skeet shooting would be doing it with the other people. Doing it by myself at the end wouldnt' be fun, and wouldn't feel (to me) like it counted--especially if I didn't even get to do the skeet part.

Sure, it would perhaps be more accurate to say "I didn't get to shoot until the very end, when everyone was already done. It wasn't even SKEET shooting, though".

But if I'm telling the story to communicate my feelings about how the day went, saying "I didn't even get to shoot" could well paint a more accurate picture of how I EXPERIENCED the event.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 02/26/11 08:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Telly
I totally understand what your husband meant.

To me, the fun of skeet shooting would be doing it with the other people. Doing it by myself at the end wouldnt' be fun, and wouldn't feel (to me) like it counted--especially if I didn't even get to do the skeet part.

Sure, it would perhaps be more accurate to say "I didn't get to shoot until the very end, when everyone was already done. It wasn't even SKEET shooting, though".

But if I'm telling the story to communicate my feelings about how the day went, saying "I didn't even get to shoot" could well paint a more accurate picture of how I EXPERIENCED the event.


This is exactly what I thought when I read it. It doesn't SEEM like a lie to me.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 10:04 PM
Ladies, this is how I put it to him when he began backtracking with, "That's not what I meant, you misunderstood..."

I said, "imagine I had gone to an event where alcohol was served, and I came home and told you that I did not drink. Then you found a picture on the internet, of me at the event, with a beer to my lips. And I started explaining to you that what I meant was that I hadn't drank during the event, but slammed four or five at the end."

Someone who has his history of being untruthful and claims to want to restore the trust he has broken ought to be a bit more careful in his statements, don't you think? The problem here is that I don't know what the truth is. He told me he didn't get to shoot. I find a picture of him shooting. Was it popping rounds at the end of the day? Or was it earlier with the rest? I don't know what to believe because I was told he DID NOT SHOOT, and was only told the other after I discovered different. Do you get it now?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 10:38 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Why are you holding onto the resentment from something that happened a year ago?


Clearly, I am not over it. It's not something I've thought about for a long time. But seeing him sick and imagining what I would have to feel in order to walk out on him and leave him with a bunch of rambunctious kids--to go socialize, or put in an extra 20 hours at work--I would have to be a monster to do something like that. I would have to want him to just die, I would have to want everyone in my family to know that I just DESPISE them. Ouch, ouch, ouch. It breaks my heart. What the heck was he thinking???
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 02/26/11 10:46 PM
you know, CWMI, your alcohol/event example reminds me of some volunteer work when I was young. I'd do special events for vets. Of course, with Nam vets, the alcohol flowed freely. The help didn't drink during the event, but there were many beers after the event ended and clean-up was done. If the question had been put to me, I probably would have said "no I didn't drink" meaning during the event. So he might not be lying, it might just be a high level of abstraction of speaking on his part. He communicates in the general, where you are specific.

btw, liars usually use general speak when lying. But generalities don't necessarily equate lies.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/26/11 11:02 PM
You abstract people are weird. smile

I feel like I was deceived. I was told something that was not true. If i had spoken to someone else who had gone to the event and said, "H was so disappointed that he didn't get to shoot," I imagine they would wonder why I said that, since they saw my H shoot.

He was a half hour late leaving to head home. He told me that was because they had to take down the banners and it took longer. I find picture. He tells me that was AFTER the other shooting, so I asked him if that was the real reason he was late. He said no, that picture was taken well BEFORE the end of the event, it didn't hold him up.

Sorry, I don't believe him.

I have NO IDEA what the truth is, but I do know that he would hide 'having fun' from me especially if it was the reason why he wasn't keeping his word to be home at a certain time.
Posted By: Isabeau Re: Duped - 02/26/11 11:11 PM
Forgive me - I'm not familiar with your history. Was he like this when you were dating?
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 02/26/11 11:19 PM
I'm not like that anymore. Living with my high abstraction DH has made me quite low abstraction. I say to him, "You're being to general, I'm not following you, please be more specific,"

And he basically admitted that he shot during the event. That's not good. There's no solid foundation for M when a spouse lies.

(((((CWMI)))))
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/26/11 11:47 PM
Quote:
I do know that he would hide 'having fun' from me


Why do you think he would feel the need to hide having fun from you?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/27/11 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Telly
Quote:
I do know that he would hide 'having fun' from me


Why do you think he would feel the need to hide having fun from you?


In this case? Because he made a big stink about not wanting to go, and how he and one of the other guys told the boss they were leaving at *exactly* 5pm and not hanging out to mingle with the guests because they were already spending 6 hours with the guests, which was more time than their own families would have with them that day. He forwarded me the email saying so.

So if he told me that he did decide to stay after and have fun, then he'd have to admit that he really didn't mean it that spending time with us was more of a priority.

What do you think? I'm sure you think it's my fault, Telly. But you're wrong.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 02/27/11 12:31 AM
Cwmi, you're looking at it from how you think you would have to feel with the whole being left while you're sick. Being selfish does not equal being a monster and hating someone. Is it right what he did? No. But being a hateful monster sounds extreme.

I always get the feeling that you two have totally different communication styles and both of you get frustrated with each other. The other thing that strikes me is neither of you trust each other on feel safe with each other

Cwmi, it seems you think that evenings and weekends should never be spent away from spouse and family. And if they do, you seem to think that's abusive. And that the person doesn't value the family. I'm curious, when is it okay for him to see or spend time with friends?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/27/11 01:01 AM
He goes out to lunch with friends. The only time he has to spend with the family is evenings and Sunday--and he spent all last Sunday (9am until 7pm) at that event, so you tell me: if a guy spends 8am-7pm at work or commuting m-f, then 9-6 on saturday doing the same thing, then 9-7pm on Sunday doing the same thing, how many of the leftover hours should be spent with friends instead of his wife and children?
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/27/11 03:00 AM
***Edit***

I don't think anything is your fault. I really don't.

Do I think it's possible that you and your husband create a dynamic between the two of you that isn't as good as it could be? Yes. But I don't think either of you are "at fault"
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Duped - 02/27/11 03:41 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
how many of the leftover hours should be spent with friends instead of his wife and children?


That would depend on how many hours his wife can enthusiastically agree to?
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/27/11 01:46 PM
Well, there is an author out there who has written articles about how people can learn to relate to one another without one having to be "right" and the other "wrong".

Since I can't write his name, I'm sorry to say that I will have to leave you guessing, lol!

In any case, I do think that one of the ways you and your husband could improve things is to try to understand how the other experiences a situation, vs. seeing it always in black and white. Right and wrong.

It doesn't change what you need from him, but it can both help you have compassion as you work through HOW you each get what you need. (In MB terms, it helps you to see some very important and sneaky DJ's that you may be overlooking)

At this point, what would you think about re-viewing the Myer's Briggs personality assessment as it relates to both of you and how you interact with each other?

I think it just might be easier to come at POJA, and PORH, and ALL the wonderful MB principles if you are doing so without judging each other in the process. Sometimes people actions are more complex and complicated than they seem... And it can help you to stop judging each other OR yourselves, because you can better understand why the other person is doing what they are doing (you and your H both seem to do this to each other, to me).

Also, if admiration is important to your H (have you determined whether or not that is the case? I forget what you reported to be his top EN's beyond DS, which may be more of an LB when not met than an actual EN when met), then how are you doing at admiring him for putting his foot down regarding travel?

I am finding opportunities to admire my H about all sorts of things, and I see it making him so happy, open and content. But that is truly one of his EN's, and I don't know if it is for your H--or if he is even letting you meet his EN's.

FWIW, I am now meeting all of my H's EN's (since I lost a lot of weight) and I see how much MY failure to do so in the past made it hard for him to move towards me in the way that I needed.

We still have bad days (had one last week, actually), and I still tend to blow those out of proportion in my own mind (thanks to my family of origin patterns that I learned), but when I am not overreacting, I can't help but be happy.

Last night, we went out on a date night, and were both weeping by the end because of our gratitude for one another and all we have been through. It was a love fest!

I want that for you (well, not the bad day part!)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/27/11 02:21 PM
I fail to see the DJ on my part in believing he didn't shoot, coming across evidence to the contrary, and telling him what I found and requesting an explanation. Please stop trying to talk me into 'understanding' deception rather than putting a stop to it. It's an LB, it must stop.

Here's another one that you'd probably like to chalk up to his way of communicating: last week, he told me that one of his old co-workers sent him a customer and that HE would be there to test drive on Friday. I went through his phone. Customer was a SHE. So I asked him, "Why did you tell me that was a guy?" He explained that oh, well, her husband was also going to come to the drive, so he used he. But the customer was the she. I told him it looked suspicious that he would lie about the gender of a customer, and he could have just used 'they' if that was the truth. I asked him what he would think if I told him that I had a meeting with a professor at school and would meet HER at 4pm, and he later found out that it was a guy. Would he wonder why I switched genders? He said yes, that would worry him, why would I hide that? I said EXACTLY. When he convolutes things because of some weird sense that his 'lie' will be better received than the truth (which is so far from the truth it's not funny), he makes things worse and further damages trust.

I told him I'm trying to forgive him for the past and he's making it very difficult by continuing with the little deceptions because that keeps the wounds open.

Of course I'm pleased about the travel. He is surprised and relieved at how easy it was.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/27/11 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: bigkahuna
Originally Posted By: CWMI
how many of the leftover hours should be spent with friends instead of his wife and children?


That would depend on how many hours his wife can enthusiastically agree to?


After FC and UA time is met, no problem! That schedule barely leaves enough for those, though...
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 02/27/11 04:17 PM
I'm lost. So he said a guy would test drive the car and it is a that is test driving? However the one purchasing the car is a female (sounds like they're purchasing the car since they're married)? I'm not sure if your analogy is correct since he's still meeting with a male.

It seems he might have been fishing for admiration on the potential to sell a car. I agree with you on why didn't get say the wife was purchasing the car and the husband was test driving

The two of you have completely different communication styles and a way of relating
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/27/11 04:43 PM
They didn't show, so it's moot, but she was coming to drive and buy and was bringing her H with her, supposedly, but all H had spoken with was the W and the only contact information he had was the W's. The 'he' in the equation was basically an abstraction, lol.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/27/11 04:47 PM
IOW, H never spoke to or dealt with or even knew the name of the 'he'.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/28/11 03:31 PM
I think there is a difference between understanding and acceptance.

The reason I urge you to strive for understanding is not so that you can endure it better--but so that you guys can talk about it differently.

I guess I would imagine that your husband has his reasons for lying--even if they aren't good ones.

But how does talking about it in that way (you are lying and there is no excuse for it) allow him any way to move forward without feeling defensive?

I think that sometimes these persistent problem areas in marriage can reflect where a person needs to grow... or be healed (notice I am not saying "stay where they are").

I think you are on this journey together, and you guys have to figure it out together.

Maybe you don't agree. Maybe you don't feel it's your job to help your husband in his weakness... to help him with his flaws/faults... I don't know.

To me, understanding your personality types gives you a way into those discussions that can really help you each move forward. Him, to learn to be more truthful and direct, you to (possibly) accept the process a little more peacefully.

I do NOT think you ought to accept him lying. And I don't think that's what understanding brings. I think it brings people together so they can move forward as they make their marriage what want it to be. It gives them a gentle, loving, and peaceful way to talk about it without compromising what they need/want/expect from one another.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/28/11 05:46 PM
He can stop lying, Telly. That'd solve the whole problem. He can make that choice. I can't make him.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 02/28/11 06:13 PM
No, but you can make the surrounding circumstances more or less condusive to his making that choice. You may feel you shouldn't have to "bribe" him to tell the truth. He may feel he shouldn't be punished for telling the truth. Do you want to be "right", or do you want him to be truthful?
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/28/11 06:48 PM
My husband has STOPPED being deceptive with me (unintentional or not). He has STOPPED.

I am convinced that one of the reasons he stopped was because I approached him in a way that was about us each of us understanding where the other was coming from.

I don't think my H is any more or less interested in my marriage than your H is interested in yours.

I also do not think he is inherently more honest (not at ALL!!!).

He lied for some of the same reasons your H does... It wasn't important enough to have a "whole big discussion". He was trying to anticipate what might upset me. Frankly, it was just easier to lie.

I remember one day, he decided to go work at a coffee shop rather than his office, but he baldfaced lied to me when asked, and didn't tell me that he was going there until he was already there.

Well, I knew that was where he was going by the way he dressed. I was also able to figure out his other activities that day (shopping, etc).

Eventually he came clean, but it was painful for both of us.

THat kind of stuff used to happen to us ALL THE TIME. It was almost always over stupid stuff, and it drove me crazy.

It doesn't happen anymore.

I don't think it was my fault that he lied AT ALL. It was his choice, his decision, and his problem. I think he had been choosing the easy road for years, with all sorts of people.

Only then it became my problem... Or, more accurately, OUR problem.

So I worked WITH him to understand him better, and have him understand me better, so WE could conquer OUR problem.

I did whatever I could to help him change this pattern in his life (our life) until now I can report the problem is gone.

GONE.

At least with me. Sometimes I still hear him stretch things with other people, when I think the truth is just as easy.

Not my problem. I only care that he is completely, utterly, and totally honest with ME.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/28/11 07:38 PM
Hold, I don't punish him for telling the truth.

Telly, the difference between your H and mine is that mine was counseled by Steve Harley for six months and he's still lying. Want to know the brand-new, less than an hour old lie?

He told me that there was no way to access his work email from home. That he checked for me and with this new job, it just wasn't possible. LIE! I found out today, when he logged onto it from home. He's been out sick and since he NEEDED to, now, he did. Probably would NOT have told me if I didn't find out myself.

How's that? I'm furious. He's on the way to the lawyer. Again.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 02/28/11 08:08 PM

Why did you want him to check his e-mail from home?

Given that you have e-mailed people he worked for/with in the past, do you think it was possible he was nervous about giving you access?

Or is there some other reason he would not want to e-mail from home (aka "an affair")?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/28/11 10:31 PM
I wanted access, Telly. He said he would give it to me, IF ONLY HE COULD, sorry, he checked, wasn't possible, the company had no remote web access to email, it was held on their own servers.

It was all the ruse about being totally open with me, no more hiding.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 02/28/11 11:31 PM
Then he went on to say that he hadn't pursued it farther back then because he didn't think it was a big deal to me, since I stopped asking for it. Um, I stopped asking because he told me it was impossible to give. I believed him.

That was the reason he gave for pursuing access today, and not having done so back then.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 03/01/11 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Then he went on to say that he hadn't pursued it farther back then because he didn't think it was a big deal to me, since I stopped asking for it. Um, I stopped asking because he told me it was impossible to give. I believed him.

That was the reason he gave for pursuing access today, and not having done so back then.


So was the lie that he never really checked on it?

Some of his 'lies' seem like perception to me...(like the shooting). But some seem like, well lies. I was married to a liar. It was maddening. And then he turned out to be a cheater.

Hope that is not your reality.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 03/01/11 01:32 PM
Okay, you wanted access.

I don't know that you can entirely trust the reasons he gives you for the lies right now. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't.

If he felt comfortable being honest about WHY, he would probably not need to lie in the first place.

That's why I'm asking if you think it's possible he is nervous about you e-mailing people from work the way you did at his last job.

If I remember correctly, you actually wrote/called someone to check up on him (is he really with a client), as well as to reveal "lies" that he had told, and to intervene in one of his relationships with a guy you felt was using him. Am I correct in my memories?

My H would not want me to have access if he was worried that I was going to send ANY e-mails to ANY of his coworkers. Or that if I read things, we were going to fight about the choices he was making at work. And there was a time when he would have lied, rather than argue with me about his real feelings.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 03/01/11 01:40 PM
Have you guys ever talked about how he felt about when you've contacted people from his work and/or critiqued decisions that he made when he was going to work?

Is that something Dr. Harley approved of? I've often wondered... Because personally, I can't see how thinking that your spouse is going to intervene in work matters would lead to increased transparency.

I remember when I managed residence halls, and my husband made a couple of calls to people he thought should be taking care of a few things instead of letting me handle it.

I was humiliated and angry. It felt like a violation to me, and I am a pretty flexible person.

I can only imagine how your husband felt, when we know he is an "image management" person.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 01:49 PM
I can email his co-workers without access to his inbox. I can pick up a phone, I can show up. Blocking me from access does not change that. Blocking me from access only creates a place where he can receive filthy joke emails from young female coworkers (which he has none now) and photographs of young female coworkers scantily clad from stupid male coworkers (of which he has none of those now either).

The relationship I intervened on was using me, my family's resources.

Telly, maybe you should go back to when he changed jobs and what HIS intention was in doing so. At least, his stated intention.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 01:57 PM
You don't understand POJA, do you, Telly?

Steve told my H to POJA decisions about where and how much he worked, and yes I violated POJA by going straight to Dude about my problems with him borrowing our stuff all the time, but H also violated POJA by agreeing to it against my will. We were BOTH wrong. The SOLUTION is to get agreement.

So...he did agree to give me access to his inbox at work. He said it was important to him to show me that he had nothing to hide. Then he hid it. Durr.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 03/01/11 02:51 PM
CWMI, I am not going to talk about your husband's flaws. I'm not going to commiserate with you about what an awful person he is, and how terribly he has managed every decision, and how he is the reason your marriage is horrible.

I'm just not. Plenty of other people will, and that has it's place.

I'm going to focus on you, and what you are contributing. I'm going to talk about how your behavior may be interpreted in such a way that it doesn't help you get what you want. Which is honesty and successful POJA with your H.

Focusing on you does not in any way take away from anything your husband has or has not done.

With that in mind...

Have you actually tried to POJA your access to his work/e-mail etc? Have you ever talked to him about how he feels with regard to your past involvement with his work situation? Has he ever told you how he felt when you e-mailed Dude/called the secretary to check up on him/e-mailed his boss?

I cannot imagine him being enthusiastic about you ever doing that. I can also imagine him being nervous about it happening again. Can't you?

I would be. Even if the call to Dude was "about you", because it was "your families resources", it crossed a line. You know that, Dr. H already told you it was wrong.

But that wasn't the only time you stepped in, right?

Can you see how it might not feel safe for H to share open access with you? Can you see how he might not want to risk that again? Can you also see how it's possible that even talking with you about it would be hard? (Well, if he hadn't handled it that way, I wouldn't have had to do what I did...)

Furthermore, it is very hard to talk with someone who, even when they do something wrong, insists it is still your fault. It's hard to ever want to talk about anything openly and frankly.

If you want to POJA everything and anything with your husband, you MUST try to understand where he is coming from better. It can't be all about you and what you need (even if you think what you need is superior to what he wants, even if it IS superior), or you will never never never come to agreements that you both are GENUINELY enthusiastic about. And the arrangements will be destined to fail.

Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 03:05 PM
Yes, we POJA'd access. If we HADN'T, I would have harped on him until I got my way, don't you think? I'm not above strong-arming my way. I'm not above 'going over his head'. My problem here, with access, is that I DIDN'T, I believed him, and that bit me in the butt.

Yes, we talked about how he felt about me checking up on him. He did not like it. People who want to maintain a life separate from their spouse NEVER like being checked up on. So? What's your point? I should be happy for him to keep secrets from me, to maintain a secret life separately? You're nutz. smile

You seem very protective of his IB, Telly, and I can't imagine why.
Posted By: Telly Re: Duped - 03/01/11 03:15 PM
Well, now you know he has e-mail access. How are you going to POJA the use of it between you? What are some of the things you are going to come to agreement on?

In my house, one of the things we actually include in POJA is his USE of e-mail (he likes to be on e-mail almost as much as I like to be on MB! LOL!).

Also, you want to agree with how the information you obtained is going to be used, right? What are you going to do, what kinds of conversations you are going to have about things you read there. I mean, are you going to try to influence work choices he is making based on what you read? Does he fear that? If so, how can you help each other feel good about it.

You have to make sure you are both completely on the same page in terms of you using his e-mail for any purposes. If he's nervous about that, can you alleviate his fears in any way?

Any thing else you think should be covered as you POJA the whole issue now that you know he does have e-mail access from home?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 03:27 PM
My ONLY concerns, my ONLY reasons for wanting access, is to confirm that what he tells me about events is the truth, and to know how he portrays himself and is seen as a husband (man?) outside of our home.

He tells me the truth, and corrects any false perceptions that he is anything other than a man devoted to his wife, and there is zero problem for me.

He welcomes inappropriate sexist emails, exchanges any correspondence about deceiving me, we have a problem. And rightly so. Regardless of how he 'feels' about it. It's a problem, and one I have the right to know about.

Do you think he has a right to privacy in regards to sexually explicit emails from coworkers?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 03:33 PM
Telly, listen, hon...I have never gone to anyone else without speaking with H first. No, he didn't agree to me telling other people how I felt. I'm not going to sit here and allow my H to not care how I feel and say NOTHING to others involved. He has his chance to handle it.

Honestly, what you are saying to me sounds an awful lot like telling a BW that unless her H agrees to exposure, she shouldn't do it. As far as I have been able to determine, I'm not a BW--the inappropriate emails were not personal from that girl, they were forwarded jokes. But again, I've been blocked access to a lot of contact that I could have been given access to. Inappropriate emails + future blocked access through deception of possibility = suspicious.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 03:43 PM
"False Perceptions"---I also mean to say that I need to know if he is portraying himself *truthfully* outside of our home as someone who is NOT devoted to his wife.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 03:59 PM
Well, 'not devoted' is pretty apparent in the fact that he drove down to a lawyer's office yesterday, even though he did not follow through, eh?

I think that pretty well falls into 'mental and emotional abuse', unlike telling someone you are highly ticked off that they lied to you. Mmm?
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 03/01/11 04:08 PM
Originally Posted By: RareMamaJewel
Are you angry at him for the way he treated you? Or are you angry at *you* for putting up with it?


Hi CWMI, I'm still catching up on your thread, but this post stopped me in my tracks- how true it is that often we aren't as much mad at the other person as we are mad at our self, feeling like we've disrespected ourselves, for putting up with it.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 03/01/11 04:31 PM
Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
Originally Posted By: RareMamaJewel
Are you angry at him for the way he treated you? Or are you angry at *you* for putting up with it?


Hi CWMI, I'm still catching up on your thread, but this post stopped me in my tracks- how true it is that often we aren't as much mad at the other person as we are mad at our self, feeling like we've disrespected ourselves, for putting up with it.


I told him this last night...I've told him this before. I have no delusions about how STUPID I feel for believing him, how ANGRY I am about my choices, and how helpless I feel to change the situation short of blowing up my family. I am angry at me for thinking that I could even try to trust him--he knows this. I am mad at me for being gullible.

I am MADDER at him for putting me and our children in this situation. I don't think it is wrong for a wife to try to trust her H when he's given his word to be honest, even when that means a major change. I believe in giving a person the benefit of the doubt and I believe a person can choose different behaviors. So while I am mad at me for my own choices here--to stick around, to trust, to believe--I don't think the attempt was wrong on my part.

I DO think his follow-through was poor, and I am mad that he misled me and wasted my efforts.
Posted By: Fireproof Re: Duped - 03/01/11 10:39 PM
Locked at OP's request.
Posted By: Ariel Re: Duped - 04/27/11 07:00 PM
Unlocked at OP's request.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 04/27/11 08:18 PM
Unlocked by same request. smile Thanks!

So, just a quickie update from 'where we left off'.

Nothing terrible found in H's email, most horrible thing was a forwarded email by his BOSS with a link to a music video titled "Hard to kiss the lips at night that chew your a** out all day long", sent as a mass email to all the married guys with a note that he was sure they could all relate to it. Nice. WTH is wrong with people? I, of course, chewed my H's a** out about it.

Kidding.

I did ask him what his thoughts on that were. Still non-committal, 'didn't pay attention to it', he ended up mass-emailing his co-workers to not send any non-work-related emails to him.

Boss sent another video with a subject line of "Work Related Video, must watch!" and it was something banal about men's underwear. Where are the adults? Anyone? I am in school with 18-21yo's all day and THEY are more mature than this.

Oh, too, I found out after-the fact that H contacted a teenage boy over the internet and our family paid (gifts, actually) this kid to make a video for H's work. Long story, but ends with me saying that I felt that being above reproach was the important thing here and perhaps the best way to do that would be to not buy gifts in exchange for services from teenagers one meets on the internet.

And H finally admitted to reading this thread saying, "I didn't think it would bother me, but it did. It really bothers me what they said about me." Well...he also said that I didn't represent it 'right' and he thought about posting rebuttals and I told him, "Please do. I think that's a fantastic idea." And...nothing.

Circling back around to the last topic on this thread...when the teenage boy stuff came out, H said he was angry at me for 'never giving him the benefit of the doubt.' I told him, "I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you told me that you could not get email access from home." He looked like I'd smacked him. He certainly couldn't argue that I hadn't. (given him the benefit of the doubt--not smacked him. smile )

He's been super the last several weeks except for one short AO one morning when I asked for clarity about something I was unclear about (where my car was going to be taken...my car ended up not going at all because he screamed at me that I never listen and he was NOT going to tell me again--he'd told me two different places prior, and I honestly didn't know!). He called and apologized; I told him to just knock that crap out. So far, so good, but man, I'm getting worn. I think I should be sensitive to his LBs, but sometimes it just feels like police work--is he IBing? Is he lying? Is he going to jump down my throat if I ask him a question? UGH...

Just venting/updating. All is not fantastic in CWMI-land, but it's not yet hopeless, either. I feel pretty good about my side of the street. Maybe H will post and straighten that out, though. smile He did say that everything is perfect for him at home and he doesn't know what the heck his problem is.

I have a theory, but that would be a DJ. lol.

Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/02/11 06:29 PM
More talking to myself:

lol

I just rang my H; he's out to lunch with some guy, I knew he was going but thought he'd be back well before now. So he says, "I'm still finishing up my lunch with [guy], can I call you back in a little bit?" I said "Sure!" and then...the line stayed open and I heard him telling the guy that he had to learn to answer my calls so I'd leave him alone and he loves it cause it works.

So...do I give him an a-hole of the year award, or never call him again?

I'm voting...BOTH. What a jackhole.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 05/02/11 06:45 PM
Eh. Disrespectful chest pounding.

Just tell him you don't appreciate
A)being disrespected to others
B)leaving the phone on long enough so you can hear him be disrespectful about you to others.

That should be enough to embarass and get your point across.
Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Duped - 05/02/11 06:55 PM
That sucks!!! I'd be really upset, too.

I agree with Kilted. I would probably just let him know via text that he left his phone on and I heard what he said and then let him sit on it all day feeling stupid.

If you go on offense he will automatically go on defense.

Let him come home with his tail between his legs rather than giving him a reason to turn it around and be mad at you by calling him an a-hole.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/02/11 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Eh. Disrespectful chest pounding.



It's just not cool, or manly!

No EH about it. NOT COOL, not by a longshot.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/02/11 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Penni4Thoughts
That sucks!!! I'd be really upset, too.

I agree with Kilted. I would probably just let him know via text that he left his phone on and I heard what he said and then let him sit on it all day feeling stupid.

If you go on offense he will automatically go on defense.

Let him come home with his tail between his legs rather than giving him a reason to turn it around and be mad at you by calling him an a-hole.


Penni, your H reminds me a lot of mine. Thing is, we've done 6mos of coaching with Steve Harley, and my H still thinks of appeasement than any action of love. I think he's hopeless. I've remained hopeful for far too long. He does not love me, he wants me to leave him alone.

He's a curmudgeon! Our 9yo asked him the other day, "Why don't you ever laugh?" H said, "I laugh!" Our 6yo said, "No you don't, you sit there like this," and made a stony face [blank stare]. I keep on hoping sometime, someway, something is going to get through to him...

We went out Friday night, and I encouraged H to call a friend who is going through a tough divorce to meet up with us because the band was a new incarnation of a band we used to all go see together, way back when H and I were dating. It was Dude (kt knows who this is)...H and I were reminiscing and Dude was brought up, and even though I haven't physically seen him in a couple years and had issues with him, I don't hate the guy at all and feel bad for him, because his wife cheated, and I've known him longer than H anyway and we got a lot of our issues out and agreed that we just wouldn't interfere...and since H still talks to him, I said yeah, why the heck not?

So Dude shows up and is surprised that I am there, which is reasonable since we'd agreed to stay the heck away from each other, but then he says he can't believe I look so good (AWESOME, is actually what he said). I said, "Why? Did you think I'd devolved into some old hag or something?" and he said YES, and gave my H a wtf? look.

I blew it off at the time because we were having fun, but now I'm mad. He's telling people I'm an old hag that won't leave him alone. I'm his WIFE. And I'm freakin' SMOKIN HOT and I deserve a man who WANTS to hear from me.
Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Duped - 05/02/11 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Penni, your H reminds me a lot of mine. Thing is, we've done 6mos of coaching with Steve Harley, and my H still thinks of appeasement than any action of love. I think he's hopeless. I've remained hopeful for far too long. He does not love me, he wants me to leave him alone.


I agree, there is definitely similarity in our H's. I haven't read your whole thread but from what I have read, I can relate. It's hard to persist when you feel like the other person doesn't care. And, it makes you wonder if they would care if you left. They probably would, but they don't realize that right now.

My H's top needs are SF and RC. He gets all of the SF he desires from me and he makes it a point to spend his most enjoyable RC time with his friends. Sometimes I wonder if I should just cut him off from SF, if that would wake him up. I doubt it, it would probably just lead to an affair.

Anyway, I can relate to your frustration - if you find a solution, let me know!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/02/11 08:10 PM
My H would care a LOT if I dumped the household chores and the kids on him. My H told me that he didn't have a need for RC because "That's something you get from friends, not your wife!"

I told him I heard it all. He said I took it out of context. lol. Okay, put it in some context, then. He said he wouldn't 'get into that with me', then texted that he hates fighting and ILU, I texted back Try Again.

Sorry, guys, you don't get to diss your wife, tell her she took it wrong, then get forgiveness over and over and over again. Listen up!
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 05/02/11 11:25 PM
Does your husband have a high need for RC?

I think every husband and wife should get some time alone with the kiddos. I remember my wife thinking how awesome it'd be that I got to spend the summer with 'em and show me how hard it can be (which is weird because I had previous children and took care of them and I have a patience level near that of Job). She never quite got the "see how I feel!" (she's never been a fulltime SAHM save for that six weeks off for maternity leave). However after a couple weeks and realizing that I was singing Noggin TV station songs, not changing my clothes, or really doing anything adult related she told me to go get cleaned up and go find an adult friend to go have a beer with.

I remember the conversation when she came home one day. Teh house had been immaculate and the kids well-cared for. Well one day she came home and the house was a wreck and I was in 3 day old clothes of not changing.
Her: "Hi Honey. Ummm..when's the last time you had a shower?"
Me: "Ummmm...what day is it?"
Her: "Thursday. And based on that, you need to go take a shower, shave, and go out and have a beer and get some adult conversation."
Me: "Why?"
Her: "Because you've been around kids too long and need to get away from the house."

I learned I don't do well without a schedule and don't keep myself busy.

I don't think you can ever put into an appropriate conversation dissin' on your spouse...ever. It's just something you shouldn't do. It's bad form and disrespectful.

Soooo...ummm...how is Dude doing?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/02/11 11:29 PM
Dude is hurting.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 05/03/11 02:38 AM
What do you think you are teaching your kids by holding onto a man who doesn't value or respect you?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/03/11 06:04 PM
I hate it when divorced people start encouraging everyone else to get divorced, too.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 05/03/11 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I hate it when divorced people start encouraging everyone else to get divorced, too.


Well, I am divorced and happily remarried...I lean toward encouraging people to keep families intact--especially if there is no abuse or infidelity.

Your dh does remind me of my XH. He too just wanted me to leave him alone. And he too distorted our relationship to others. So I don't know how you get that changed. I never could.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Duped - 05/03/11 09:51 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I hate it when divorced people start encouraging everyone else to get divorced, too.

Amen.

Markos should've divorced me a long time ago according to some. I'm the "dud" laugh
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 05/03/11 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I hate it when divorced people start encouraging everyone else to get divorced, too.

Amen.

Markos should've divorced me a long time ago according to some. I'm the "dud" laugh


Well, Prisca, that might be a two way street.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 05/03/11 09:59 PM
Oh I had more to say but got distracted.

My XH wanted me to leave him alone, but he didn't want a divorce. He just wanted me to shut up and 'get off his a$$'.

I came to a place of acceptance about that. I certainly 'let go' of any dream I had of having a good marriage with him. I would have ridden it out and made the best of it and been appreciative for the good parts of my life. I had a hole in my life, but I was not unhappy. My life was mostly full....I would have done my best to stay out of his way---the adultery pushed me over the edge.

Once I got to MB (after one of the OW incidents) I realized that our 'disconnect' was the way he ended up in an affair.

So, now, I counsel my friends to honor their marriage vows even when unhappy and even when they can't get their spouse on board to have a happy marriage...but I can't shake the feeling that a lot of those marriages will ultimately end up in divorce due to adultery.

I hope that is not the case with you CWMI.

What do YOU think you should do?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/03/11 10:25 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman


Please go away and leave me alone CWMI. You never 'get' anything I am trying to say.




In case you're waiting for a reply, SW, this is why one won't be coming.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 05/03/11 10:44 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman


Please go away and leave me alone CWMI. You never 'get' anything I am trying to say.




In case you're waiting for a reply, SW, this is why one won't be coming.


Oh, yeah. Shrug. I doubt I could say anything that would help you anyway. I do wish you and your family peace.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 02:36 PM
Yep, well, complete and total lack of empathy is confirmed. He stated that it is impossible to feel what another person is feeling. The conversation started with me requesting that he knock off the stuff about explaining why I shouldn't feel a certain way when I tell him that he's hurt me, and that I would like for him to simply recognize that I'm hurting and apologize for hurting me even when that was not his intent, *listen* to what I say hurts me, and not do it anymore. He argued that if *he* didn't feel it was hurtful, then he won't apologize and he will 'state his case' for why it isn't hurtful. Um, yeah, okay, good luck with that!

Anyway, the conversation evolved into 'putting oneself into another's shoes', and he explained that it is impossible to understand another person's feelings unless you have personally experienced them yourself. Not just some like them; the exact same feeling, brought about by the exact same event. I mentioned the tough time of having all the littles (our three youngest kids) when they were all in diapers, and all very needy, and how worn out I was everyday from giving, giving, giving and it was all I could do to keep my head above water with the constant demands on my physical and emotional strength, and asked him if he could understand what that was like for me. He said, "Nope. Never did it myself."

So I tried literature. I read a lot, and what I enjoy most about reading is experiencing things I could only experience through literature, and properly rendered literature does create emotion in me as if I were experiencing these things firsthand. H does not read much, but there is one novel we have both read that stirred a lot of emotion in me. "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy. Did it stir any in him? Nope. He enjoyed the book, but he did not go along on the emotional ride, according to him. I told him about my feelings of anxiousness, calm determination, disgust, and others while reading that book. He thinks that's CRAZY. And said that nobody can feel an emotion just from hearing about someone else's experience. It's impossible.

Huh.

So I'm nobody, then. A nobody married to a sociopath. Nice! smile

I already knew all this, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. You can't fix sociopath.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/04/11 03:43 PM
It's interesting that you would label him a sociopath.

It tells me you no more understand him, or accept him than he accepts or understands you.

On one hand, you want him to feel and accept what you feel. OK, I get that. But then how can you be unwilling or unable to give him the same consideration and further label him a sociopath?

You complain about his characterizations about you to others, but still have no problem not holding yourself to the same standard. You are here calling him a sociopath, but complain that he's given others the impression you are a nag.

You are getting exactly what you are giving, and complaining about it.

Just because you can understand and get emotionally touched by a book doesn't mean your husband is going to be the same way. It's not wrong for him to be that way. It's not wrong for you to be that way.

But from this vantage point on the interwebs, it looks like you want him to be like you, but you are unwilling or unable understand that he is not you and will not see, feel or think the same way you do.

I know this isn't the first time I've suggested this. In many ways, I think you are doing yourself in. He accepts his limitations, and I think he is being honest about his ability or anyone's ability to REALLY understand what another is feeling.

For example, until you've been betrayed by a spouse, it's unlikely that you will REALLY understand from an emotional perspective how that feels. You can understand mentally how you think it would feel. But until you've lived it, you likely cannot say you understand how it feels, or feel it yourself.

If he says that, and I think that's the general format of what he's saying, then why are you trying to talk him out of it, or saying he SHOULD be able to do this and if he can't then he's some sort of sociopath?

You are basically saying he should or shouldn't feel the way he does. You criticize him for that, but then you turn around and do the very same thing to him.

So why not accept that he doesn't believe anyone can feel that way from reading a book or experiencing something, without seeking to put the label sociopath on him?

You are who you are, he is who he is. Stop trying to mold him into the man of your design. He's not that man, and he will (rightly) resist your attempts to do so.

He may not be right about WHY he thinks you are crazy, but he MAY be right that you are crazy given that you hold yourself to a different standard than you hold him, and you seek to change him into someone he is not.

I believe it was Einstein who said the definition of insanity is doing the same things again and again and expecting a different result.

Would you agree you are still doing many of the same things with respect to your husband and expecting a different result? From his vantage point, you probably do look a bit crazy.

If you want empathy and understanding, why not offer him the same and knock off labeling him as a sociopath.
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Duped - 05/04/11 03:53 PM
I think i have said this before but I don't think he is a sociopath but has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder.

Persons with OCPD are typically deeply entrenched in their dysfunctional beliefs and genuinely see their way of functioning as the "correct" way. Their overall style of relating to the world around them is processed through their own strict standards. While generally their daily experience is such that "all is not well," they tend to be deeply committed to their own beliefs and patterns. The depth of ones belief that "my way is the correct way" makes them resistant to accepting the premise that it is in their best interest to let go of "truth owning." Yet letting go of truth is paramount in their recovery. For the purposes of this article "truth" is defined as a person's rigidly held belief which s/he feels is universally applicable.

So no, empathy would not be a strong suit! They have determined the "correct" way to think about something, so why would anyone else think another way?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:06 PM
I understand how it feels to be betrayed by your spouse.

I was asking for him to stop LBing me in a particular way. He explained to me why he would NOT, and it is from a lack of empathy on his part. He doesn't feel he should because he doesn't feel as I do, and can't. And if he can't feel like me, he doesn't think he should care enough to stop.

FYI, he just canceled our anniversary weekend, citing a conflict with work. Nevermind that he told me he had secured the weekend off months ago (February), and now is saying that he never did and can't get the weekend off. He suggested that we simply go out that evening instead, I convinced him to just take another weekend instead. But I'm still upset, because I was looking forward, AGAIN, to something that I was promised and is not going to happen, because he LIED about securing the time. He already told me about the hotel and where we'd eat dinner and how much he wanted to do this for me because I'm so special...NONE OF IT HAPPENED. He didn't have a hotel, he didn't have dinner reservations, he didn't even have the weekend off. It was all wishful thinking, spoken of as a done-deal.

Sorry about the labels. But damn, quacks like a duck...
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:08 PM
Or perhaps CWMI is the one with OCP since she seems to expect her husband be like her, and because he's not she labels him as a sociopath.

That's the danger I see in this. I don't think there is only one entrenched person, but perhaps two. One has an idea about how to think about something, the other has an idea regarding the correct way to feel about something.

Both missing the reality of the other person.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:11 PM
Originally Posted By: wannabophim
I think i have said this before but I don't think he is a sociopath but has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder.

Persons with OCPD are typically deeply entrenched in their dysfunctional beliefs and genuinely see their way of functioning as the "correct" way. Their overall style of relating to the world around them is processed through their own strict standards. While generally their daily experience is such that "all is not well," they tend to be deeply committed to their own beliefs and patterns. The depth of ones belief that "my way is the correct way" makes them resistant to accepting the premise that it is in their best interest to let go of "truth owning." Yet letting go of truth is paramount in their recovery. For the purposes of this article "truth" is defined as a person's rigidly held belief which s/he feels is universally applicable.

So no, empathy would not be a strong suit! They have determined the "correct" way to think about something, so why would anyone else think another way?


That could easily describe me. I do believe in a truth that says if someone tells you that you hurt them, you should believe them, and unless you're a total turd, you should care about that. smile
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:13 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I understand how it feels to be betrayed by your spouse.


How do you understand, by experience? If so, then you are in lock step with your husband's point, that it takes experiencing it to really know what it feels like.

If not, then can you accept that you may understand, or may THINK you understand, but he doesn't, nor does he think he can understand unless he experiences something?
Originally Posted By: CWMI


I was asking for him to stop LBing me in a particular way. He explained to me why he would NOT, and it is from a lack of empathy on his part. He doesn't feel he should because he doesn't feel as I do, and can't. And if he can't feel like me, he doesn't think he should care enough to stop.


But I'm not talking about his unwillingness to stop love-busting you. I'm talking about your unwillingness to accept his statement as truth regarding what he feels and thinks? After all, you called him a sociopath. Now perhaps I'm wrong. However, labeling your husband as a sociopath doesn't strike me as accepting him for who he is.

You want him to accept you, but here is an example where you are not willing to do the same.

What message does that send your husband?
Originally Posted By: CWMI


FYI, he just canceled our anniversary weekend, citing a conflict with work. Nevermind that he told me he had secured the weekend off months ago (February), and now is saying that he never did and can't get the weekend off. He suggested that we simply go out that evening instead, I convinced him to just take another weekend instead. But I'm still upset, because I was looking forward, AGAIN, to something that I was promised and is not going to happen, because he LIED about securing the time. He already told me about the hotel and where we'd eat dinner and how much he wanted to do this for me because I'm so special...NONE OF IT HAPPENED. He didn't have a hotel, he didn't have dinner reservations, he didn't even have the weekend off. It was all wishful thinking, spoken of as a done-deal.

Sorry about the labels. But damn, quacks like a duck...


Then divorce him if you can't accept him. Good grief, you have every right to, so why are you hanging on to him?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
Or perhaps CWMI is the one with OCP since she seems to expect her husband be like her, and because he's not she labels him as a sociopath.

That's the danger I see in this. I don't think there is only one entrenched person, but perhaps two. One has an idea about how to think about something, the other has an idea regarding the correct way to feel about something.

Both missing the reality of the other person.


EE, the problem here is that I don't have respect for someone who ignores another's emotions, especially when that person is the inciting element of them. I don't prescribe that a person should feel a certain way, only that they should have feelings...like guilt, elation, love, disappointment...and should express them.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:21 PM
So there is no room in your world view for folks who don't feel as strongly as your standard, or don't express as strongly as your standard?

By saying someone SHOULD feel, you are saying they should feel a certain way. Why do they have to feel at all? What if their primary means of navigating life is not via feelings but via their thinking? So instead of expressing emotions, they express thoughts?

Are you unwilling to accept the legitimacy of such a personality?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:37 PM
If they want to be married to me, they need to stop LBing me regardless of their own feelings about it. He told me he just doesn't FEEL, and because of that, he will NOT stop LBing me.

I take issue with that.

I do see legitimacy in such a personality. They are certainly around. They are the serial killers and terrorists in our world. Yes, I just equated my H to a serial killer and terrorist! Gah, I am so stupid, stupid, stupid...
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
FYI, he just canceled our anniversary weekend, citing a conflict with work. Nevermind that he told me he had secured the weekend off months ago (February), and now is saying that he never did and can't get the weekend off. He suggested that we simply go out that evening instead, I convinced him to just take another weekend instead. But I'm still upset, because I was looking forward, AGAIN, to something that I was promised and is not going to happen, because he LIED about securing the time. He already told me about the hotel and where we'd eat dinner and how much he wanted to do this for me because I'm so special...NONE OF IT HAPPENED. He didn't have a hotel, he didn't have dinner reservations, he didn't even have the weekend off. It was all wishful thinking, spoken of as a done-deal.

Sorry about the labels. But damn, quacks like a duck...


Go over your past week; would you be looking forward to spending time together if you were him?

I can hardly imagine the facial expressions, body language, or tone of voice you have had with him when you are struggling to even like the guy right now.

SWAG is that he did have it secured, lied about not doing it because he just got beat up and doesn't want to spend the time, or is cancelling as a way of "punishing" you.

Is he being a turd? H-E-double-hockey-sticks yes.

Are you being a turd?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex

Then divorce him if you can't accept him. Good grief, you have every right to, so why are you hanging on to him?


As blatantly and honestly as I can express, I don't want to be a 40-year-old single mother of four young children.

I know I'll get beat up for that, and I deserve to.

I didn't get into this life by myself, and I am ill-equipped to go it alone. H and I talked about that last night, too. I told him I resented him taking my years and not loving me, I thought it was stealing. He asked why I hadn;t left, I said I was a 40-year-old woman with four young children, I didn't exactly have a life set up for dating. He asked why I would need to date? I said because I want to have a partner in my life, I find life more fulfilling with someone to share it with. Then he went off on how I never want to go on bike rides, and what did I expect him to do with me? It's just dumb stuff like that, asking me to go on a bike ride in the middle of fixing dinner or getting the kids ready for bed that makes me go, "Really??? Did I put 'bike riding' on the RI? Would you take a look at it and ask me to do the things I LIKE doing, we have 33 areas of compatibility! Ask me to do some of that, when I'm not busy with the DS and FC you demand!"

Ugh, grr, I'm having such a bad day...

But I aced my final exam this morning.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
FYI, he just canceled our anniversary weekend, citing a conflict with work. Nevermind that he told me he had secured the weekend off months ago (February), and now is saying that he never did and can't get the weekend off. He suggested that we simply go out that evening instead, I convinced him to just take another weekend instead. But I'm still upset, because I was looking forward, AGAIN, to something that I was promised and is not going to happen, because he LIED about securing the time. He already told me about the hotel and where we'd eat dinner and how much he wanted to do this for me because I'm so special...NONE OF IT HAPPENED. He didn't have a hotel, he didn't have dinner reservations, he didn't even have the weekend off. It was all wishful thinking, spoken of as a done-deal.

Sorry about the labels. But damn, quacks like a duck...


Go over your past week; would you be looking forward to spending time together if you were him?

I can hardly imagine the facial expressions, body language, or tone of voice you have had with him when you are struggling to even like the guy right now.

SWAG is that he did have it secured, lied about not doing it because he just got beat up and doesn't want to spend the time, or is cancelling as a way of "punishing" you.

Is he being a turd? H-E-double-hockey-sticks yes.

Are you being a turd?


I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.

His history? I believed he lied from the start. He said he did. He won't admit to lying, but he admitted that he told me it was a done deal because he didn't think there would be a problem with it. The man is a liar. But doesn't see saying, "I talked to boss, got that weekend off, made plans for us!" as a lie when it should actually be stated as "I picked a weekend, will ask later, and here's what I'd like to do!" To him, there is NO difference in those statements.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:17 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
FYI, he just canceled our anniversary weekend, citing a conflict with work. Nevermind that he told me he had secured the weekend off months ago (February), and now is saying that he never did and can't get the weekend off. He suggested that we simply go out that evening instead, I convinced him to just take another weekend instead. But I'm still upset, because I was looking forward, AGAIN, to something that I was promised and is not going to happen, because he LIED about securing the time. He already told me about the hotel and where we'd eat dinner and how much he wanted to do this for me because I'm so special...NONE OF IT HAPPENED. He didn't have a hotel, he didn't have dinner reservations, he didn't even have the weekend off. It was all wishful thinking, spoken of as a done-deal.

Sorry about the labels. But damn, quacks like a duck...


Go over your past week; would you be looking forward to spending time together if you were him?

I can hardly imagine the facial expressions, body language, or tone of voice you have had with him when you are struggling to even like the guy right now.

SWAG is that he did have it secured, lied about not doing it because he just got beat up and doesn't want to spend the time, or is cancelling as a way of "punishing" you.

Is he being a turd? H-E-double-hockey-sticks yes.

Are you being a turd?


I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.

His history? I believed he lied from the start. He said he did. He won't admit to lying, but he admitted that he told me it was a done deal because he didn't think there would be a problem with it. The man is a liar. But doesn't see saying, "I talked to boss, got that weekend off, made plans for us!" as a lie when it should actually be stated as "I picked a weekend, will ask later, and here's what I'd like to do!" To him, there is NO difference in those statements.


So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:19 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.


Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:27 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.


Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?


This makes no sense to me. Would you elaborate?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:32 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...


Who took a chunk out of whose backside? Wouldn't that make him a narcissist, to have the action of, "Oh, that hurt? Well here, let me do it again, HARDER, just to prove that I don't hurt you"?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:34 PM
.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:36 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.


Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?


This makes no sense to me. Would you elaborate?


To use your wording here, if he showed some semblance of emotion, you might feel a little less like you married a "sociopath."

Or, it could be quite infuriating that the man has been purposely hiding any and all feeling from you.

The "stone face" isn't pleasant to live with, and I only dealt with it for 2 weeks.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...


Who took a chunk out of whose backside? Wouldn't that make him a narcissist, to have the action of, "Oh, that hurt? Well here, let me do it again, HARDER, just to prove that I don't hurt you"?


Uh, yeah. That's why I asked.

Does he have a habit of retracting his interactions with you when you call him on his bull?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 06:04 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.


Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?


This makes no sense to me. Would you elaborate?


To use your wording here, if he showed some semblance of emotion, you might feel a little less like you married a "sociopath."

Or, it could be quite infuriating that the man has been purposely hiding any and all feeling from you.

The "stone face" isn't pleasant to live with, and I only dealt with it for 2 weeks.


Thank you. I understand that! I'm game for all-out. I'm already furious, I can deal with infuriating stuff since I learned to control my AOs. I'm game for growth. Bring it! laugh

It wouldn't be like it was the first time he deceived me. I would be relieved, actually, if he owned an emotion, and if he would admit to any ownership of my feelings or experience? Elation is what I would feel. Even if it was "Hell yeah I wanted to hurt you, I wanted to drag your soul into hell." I would feel relief and elation that he owned anything at all.

That's so sad!

Immagonna own something right now...already owned it to H...after he told me about the cancellation of our anniversary, I didn't want to talk to him. He's rang the phones (both cell and home) a dozen times, leaving nasty messages about me not answering. That's terrible of me. I don't like it when it's done to me, I shouldn't do it. I hung up on him when he started yelling at me about how he hadn't lied about planning the weekend, he *assumed* (see first post in this thread for full explanation of why I don't buy that), I was so mad that I just stopped and was done with it. I eventually returned his calls and told him that I couldn't talk to him. So, that's me, that's what I did. I don't see anything positive coming out of this unless he will admit that he misled me to believe that the weekend was secure and that we already had plans for it.

He thinks it's okay to lead someone to believe something, and then change it. The weekend it is changed to is the weekend before my maymester finals. He told me back in February that he needed to pick a weekend to have off before June, but he'd convinced his boss to give him the first weekend IN June off for our anniversary. I would have chosen another weekend, earlier this year, had I been given the chance. I'm full out of good weekends, and he typically leaves me like this: with no good choices left. I hate that.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...


Who took a chunk out of whose backside? Wouldn't that make him a narcissist, to have the action of, "Oh, that hurt? Well here, let me do it again, HARDER, just to prove that I don't hurt you"?


Uh, yeah. That's why I asked.

Does he have a habit of retracting his interactions with you when you call him on his bull?



He has a habit of deflecting blame, either claiming that [whatever] was taken wrong, or that something was misunderstood. He rarely makes plans with me, but yes, when he does, they are rarely kept. Calling on bull is a theme, but is not present in all of those.

We do spend a lot of time together, but most of it is unplanned. We'll decide Friday morning to go out Friday night, neither of us really plans anything else that keeps us apart, and usually we're good about planning for work or school events that step into the regular family time of evenings and Sunday, and let each other know. The anniversary w/e is something outside of the regular schedule. I'm just pissy because I was told I had a special weekend planned, and it was only a fantasy "If".
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
CWMI....your lack of empathy is what upset me so much on my thread.

And you come across this computer screen as very unyielding.

No one wants to be divorced at age 40, however, I was surprised at the relief I felt to have my now XH out of my life. Not just because of his adultery... day to day life with him was very difficult.

I am amazed daily at how wonderful and easy life with my dh is. Even with the issues of a blended family we get along so well. My dh's mother told him a few years ago, regarding his now XW...'Mr. SW, she just does not bring out the best in you.' That phrase has stuck with me because I can see how it applied to me and my XH too.

I would not have divorced him though. I also would not encourage anyone to get divorced over issues like that. I did however, give up on the marriage being a great marriage. That is probably not very MBish...but it worked for me. I found a measure of peace and I enjoyed the other parts of my life A LOT.





Maybe I wasn't clear? Don't post to me. Leave me alone.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/04/11 07:12 PM
CWMI, when was the last time you two filled out ENQs and LBQs and exchanged them?

Have you ever tried to go through Dr. Harley's workbook together?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 07:36 PM
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 07:44 PM
I honestly and truly don't think he has the capacity to consider someone besides himself. He's a fantastic salesman, though, and sold me through marriage and several children. He's very good at mirroring, and making people think he is just like them. I certainly thought he was a different person than he has turned out to be, and other people see him completely differently than I do...he is interested in different things depending on who he is talking to. I think sales fits him. He is very good at faking caring.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I honestly and truly don't think he has the capacity to consider someone besides himself. He's a fantastic salesman, though, and sold me through marriage and several children. He's very good at mirroring, and making people think he is just like them. I certainly thought he was a different person than he has turned out to be, and other people see him completely differently than I do...he is interested in different things depending on who he is talking to. I think sales fits him. He is very good at faking caring.


This is so outside of my pay-grade.

I take it he is not just "good," but a rather successful salesman?

Bleh. He sounds like a status-seeker who found a trophy, and can't even bother himself with taking the time to take care of it.

I don't want to sit here and bash your H, there has to be a redeeming quality somewhere... anywhere... I don't know.

But I can't tell you how to make him value his marriage and his family. It also seems that whatever you try, he doesn't get it.

... reverse psychology? The bigger the turd action, the more EN-meeting you pour on?

I. Don't. Know.

My head would explode.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/04/11 08:44 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.


Could you tell him, honestly, that continued participation in this program is a requirement for you?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/04/11 09:50 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.


Could you tell him, honestly, that continued participation in this program is a requirement for you?


Honestly? It would have to be the online program. And I'm not ready to divorce if he doesn't.

I must be sick in the head!!! No wonder he doesn't take me seriously. If i slip into D-land, I won't come back. If I separated, it would be permanent. I can't love someone and block them out. If I block someone out, it's permanent. I had one boyfriend that I got back together with, and never again! Gah, it's worse the second time around. When I'm done, I'll be done and there won't be any discussing it. I'm not *there*. That's my problem. I can't put him out until I'm fully done with him, and I can't get him to take me seriously unless I put him out. At which point I won't care if he wants to please me, because I will be thousands of miles away (at least emotionally).
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/04/11 11:55 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.


Could you tell him, honestly, that continued participation in this program is a requirement for you?


Honestly? It would have to be the online program. And I'm not ready to divorce if he doesn't.

I must be sick in the head!!! No wonder he doesn't take me seriously. If i slip into D-land, I won't come back. If I separated, it would be permanent. I can't love someone and block them out. If I block someone out, it's permanent. I had one boyfriend that I got back together with, and never again! Gah, it's worse the second time around. When I'm done, I'll be done and there won't be any discussing it. I'm not *there*. That's my problem. I can't put him out until I'm fully done with him, and I can't get him to take me seriously unless I put him out. At which point I won't care if he wants to please me, because I will be thousands of miles away (at least emotionally).


Would I be terrible to tell you that you are absolutely nuts?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/05/11 12:38 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


Would I be terrible to tell you that you are absolutely nuts?


hahaha....no.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 05/05/11 03:56 PM
CWMI-

I hear that you don't want to be a single mom to 4 kids. Personally, I wouldn't either.

What can you do, so that when your husband behaves like he has, again, that it won't affect you so much?

You know the quip about the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. How will you stop your insanity?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/05/11 06:16 PM
I could drink copious amounts of alcohol or have a steamy sordid affair with an 18-year-old freshman at my school. Or both! laugh

I'm kidding, of course. I have no idea. If he is a sociopathic narcissist, there's nothing I CAN do but remove myself.

He makes no sense to me, at all! With the overheard conversation thing, he was back to his benefit-of-the-doubt plea, that if only I would give him the benefit of the doubt, everything would be fine. Then two days later, I find out another thing I gave him the benefit of the doubt on--planning our anniversary weekend--blew up all over me. I mean, it makes sense that someone without empathy would argue that the problem is that the other person is disappointed, not that they themself disappointed anyone, because they are perfect and wouldn't DO something like that. That makes sense in an 'understanding personality disorders' way.

I am also terrified of NOT being around when he has the kids, assuming he would actually take them, and I think he might as many other people have reported that their ex suddenly wanted to be father of the year, and his public image rests a lot on him being able to say this or that about his kids. If we lived apart, he wouldn't hear about anything to relay to others, he would have to actually participate. Right now he can get away with an hour every evening, but if we hit visitation there would be full days where he would have them, maybe even full weeks. It almost seems that the thing to do with a PD parent is to maintain the ability to be present for all interactions with the kids. He hasn't done anything that would warrant a court ordering supervised visitation, and the kids are too young to have a say. KWIM? It's not like he beats them, but as I asked him the other day, "Did you just use sarcasm as a discipline tool with a 6yo?" AFAIK, that's not illegal or deemed dangerous to a child. It's just ugly and non-productive.
Posted By: Retread Re: Duped - 05/06/11 04:42 AM
CWMI -

I have not been here much, but see you have reactivated this topic of yours. I don't know how to get your husband to do it, but he should try something besides sales, something totally different, to force himself off the path of least resistance for his personality. What I am saying is that it sounds as if he has gravitated to a vocation which is easy for him, but my guess is it is not satisfying for him. He would rather be doing something else.

Have you explored that with him? Very few wives are brave enough to help their husband transition from a lucrative line of work to something which makes both husband and wife happier by being something really satisfying, something they always wanted to do or to be. You sound like that kind of woman. Ask him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 11:12 AM
I asked him to take a persoanlity disorder test I found online (one of the non-jokey ones) and it resulted in Very High for narcissism and histrionic, High for OCD. The others were all low, it checks for markers of about ten different PDs.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 11:43 AM
I don't mean to dismiss your suggestion, Retread. I just don't think it will work. He will attention-seek no matter what he is doing, and won't care, no matter what. You can't treat NPD.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 12:28 PM
CWMI, I've been musing for a couple of days on how to ask you something. I can't quite figure out the words. I guess what I want to know is -- are you still wanting to try to keep your side of the street clean? Because there are lots and lots of Disrespectful Judgments coming through, here. As a king of Disrespectful Judgments, myself, I know how hard it is sometimes to be aware of them when we are talking and writing to and about our spouse.

Prisca hit a point last year where she wanted to give up on the Marriage Builders program. One major reason for that was a feeling of lack of progress. We had done all this work and reading and discussion about love busters -- and I was still having them! I was still having angry outbursts! In fact, I was AOing with increasing frequency and intensity using our lack of progress as my excuse. Of course that was no excuse for abusing my wife. The fact that she was still massively DJing me was also no excuse. But it did allow us to blame each other as we watched our marriage descend in flames.

When you have a "reluctant spouse," what brings them on board is the feeling that they are going to GET SOMETHING out of Marriage Builders. And they should get something! They should see the Love Busters diminish and disappear; they should see their needs met with increasing regularity and finesse.

If they see the DJs or the AOs continue without letting up substantially, they may rightly conclude that they were being manipulated and that there is nothing for them to gain out of this program.

Remember the foundation of Respectful Persuasion? Show your spouse what's in it for THEM if they adopt your belief? (i.e., your belief that this program could help your marriage if followed)

I'm pretty sure you know this, but you are constantly DJing your husband, here.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
If you are thinking, "I'm right and you're wrong," watch out! You are just an utterance away from disaster. The Love Buster, disrespectful judgments, will not straighten your spouse out, as you hope. Instead, it will drive your spouse away from you. At first, you will develop emotional distance with your tactics. ... Your spouse's point of view is worth considering.


I can think of some great reasons for you to adopt a policy of no tolerance towards disrespectful judgments from yourself in your marriage:
* It might persuade your husband that this program helps and is worth following.
* Disrespectful judgments are abusive, no matter what abuse your target may have committed.
* It's only fair. You wouldn't like to be subject to DJs. Do unto others?
* Taking DJs out of your vocabulary makes you a better parent. In fact, it makes it easier to relate to people of all ages, no matter what you want to do in life.
* You will never get what you want with DJs. They simply do not work. They make the problem worse. It's like scratching an itch until you've drawn blood and continuing to scratch it instead of putting some kind of ointment on it.
* Even if nothing else ever changes, it will make you a lot happier in life.

It is some work to eliminate DJs. But it is not a sacrifice. It makes you a better you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 12:49 PM
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Duped - 05/06/11 01:43 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.


This is true...MB won't work with someone who has an underlying personality disorder.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:26 PM
Originally Posted By: wannabophim
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.


This is true...MB won't work with someone who has an underlying personality disorder.


Right, where's it say that? smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:31 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I asked him to take a persoanlity disorder test I found online (one of the non-jokey ones) and it resulted in Very High for narcissism and histrionic, High for OCD. The others were all low, it checks for markers of about ten different PDs.


Could you forward a link? I would love to take that test.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:46 PM
CWMI-

Just a few things. First, online tests aren't a good indicator of anything. According to online tests, my recovering SA husband likely didn't have addiction issues, and I'm likely BPD (borderline.) As it turns out, my husband really does have addiction issues, and I learned how to behave like a person with BPD without actually having it, thanks to being raised by a parent with BPD.

That said. How about you find a local chapter of NAMI? Does your college have counseling services? How about you ask them for resources on dealing with NPD.

I can give you some about BPD, but not sure they would relate very well.

You also may consider shopping around for some resources for your children. They are going to be affected by your husband. Speaking from experience, I would have much rather dealt with the fall out of a parent with a PD when I was younger, rather than balancing dealing with the PD on top of marriage, work, and raising a family. And, likely, I would have never married my husband.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:46 PM
Originally Posted By: wannabophim
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.


This is true...MB won't work with someone who has an underlying personality disorder.


Dr. Harley says the opposite. He says he has seen no hopeless cases due to "personality disorders." Some may have a more difficult time applying MB, but they are not hopeless. They are born thoughtless, but "they can rise above their personality type and become thoughtful people."

Dr. Harley talked about this on his radio show. You can listen to the segment from January 12, 2007.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:47 PM
Dr. Harley talks about personality disorders

ETA: Yes, Prisca looked that up for me. smile I didn't realize she was posting it.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:49 PM
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Top need is admiration?

Hallmark of NPD (according to the DSM IV); requires excessive admiration.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:51 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing.


CWMI, do you want help to clean up those DJs?

It is my belief that this is the main reason your marriage is not progressing and that there's still a lot you can do for your marriage on your side by cleaning this up.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 02:53 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Top need is admiration?

Hallmark of NPD (according to the DSM IV); requires excessive admiration.


"Excessive" is kind of a judgment call, isn't it?

Aren't there a lot of women who feel like their husbands require excessive sex? And men who feel like their wives need excessive conversation? And formerly wayward spouses who feel like their betrayed spouses need excessive openness and honesty?

Dr. Harley says emotional needs simply aren't rational. When you are dealing with some area where your spouse does not seem to be rational, you are probably dealing with an emotional need.

It helps noone to judge your spouse's needs as excessive.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I asked him to take a persoanlity disorder test I found online (one of the non-jokey ones) and it resulted in Very High for narcissism and histrionic, High for OCD. The others were all low, it checks for markers of about ten different PDs.


Could you forward a link? I would love to take that test.


This is the one: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv

I took it as well. I ranked moderate in schitzoid, however you spell the paranoia one. I asked H if he wanted to see my results. He said no, like a true narcissist who doesn't care about other people, lol. I think that result reflects me well, I do worry that people are saying bad things about me, and by people I mean my H and by bad things I mean those I overheard personally or were told by others. lol.

I would like for him to care enough to go to a doctor and get a real diagnosis. I realize online tests are not definitive, but when his SELF REPORTED answers match MY OBSERVED experience, I tend to lend them a little more weight.

And remember, Steve Harley suggested that he get evaluated for OCD. I'm not the only one waving the crazy flag here.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 03:14 PM
"There are no hopeless cases, but there are those where the person has chosen not to follow the program." From the radio show.

Hy H has chosen to see the program as a manipulation tool and discarded it on that basis after six months of working directly with SH. I'm done putting lipstick on a pig. He does not think he should have to consider my feelings, because doing so is manipulating and controlling.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 03:17 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I'm done


I see. frown
Posted By: Prisca Re: Duped - 05/06/11 03:31 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Hy H has chosen to see the program as a manipulation tool and discarded it on that basis after six months of working directly with SH. I'm done putting lipstick on a pig. He does not think he should have to consider my feelings, because doing so is manipulating and controlling.

Sounds like you've found a great excuse to continue to DJ your husband.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/06/11 03:36 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Top need is admiration?

Hallmark of NPD (according to the DSM IV); requires excessive admiration.


"Excessive" is kind of a judgment call, isn't it?

Aren't there a lot of women who feel like their husbands require excessive sex? And men who feel like their wives need excessive conversation? And formerly wayward spouses who feel like their betrayed spouses need excessive openness and honesty?

Dr. Harley says emotional needs simply aren't rational. When you are dealing with some area where your spouse does not seem to be rational, you are probably dealing with an emotional need.

It helps noone to judge your spouse's needs as excessive.


If it were excessive to everyone involved with a person, it's not much of a judgement call.

This is a medical definition, as well.

Quote:
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

4. Requires excessive admiration

Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume.

5. Has a sense of entitlement

Translation: They expect automatic compliance with their wishes or especially favorable treatment, such as thinking that they should always be able to go first and that other people should stop whatever they're doing to do what the narcissists want, and may react with hurt or rage when these expectations are frustrated.

6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends

Translation: Narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring about the cost to the other people.

7. Lacks empathy

Translation: They are unwilling to recognize or sympathize with other people's feelings and needs. They "tune out" when other people want to talk about their own problems.
In clinical terms, empathy is the ability to recognize and interpret other people's emotions. Lack of empathy may take two different directions: (a) accurate interpretation of others' emotions with no concern for others' distress, which is characteristic of psychopaths; and (b) the inability to recognize and accurately interpret other people's emotions, which is the NPD style. This second form of defective empathy may (rarely) go so far as alexithymia, or no words for emotions, and is found with psychosomatic illnesses, i.e., medical conditions in which emotion is experienced somatically rather than psychically. People with personality disorders don't have the normal body-ego identification and regard their bodies only instrumentally, i.e., as tools to use to get what they want, or, in bad states, as torture chambers that inflict on them meaningless suffering. Self-described narcissists who've written to me say that they are aware that their feelings are different from other people's, mostly that they feel less, both in strength and variety (and which the narcissists interpret as evidence of their own superiority); some narcissists report "numbness" and the inability to perceive meaning in other people's emotions.

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him

9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes



Call it a judgment call if you like, but a need for excessive admiration is what is also used to make a clinical diagnosis.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing.


CWMI, do you want help to clean up those DJs?

It is my belief that this is the main reason your marriage is not progressing and that there's still a lot you can do for your marriage on your side by cleaning this up.


Sure. I disagree that the failure of progression in my marriage is because I am hurt by what he says to other people, or that I am bothered that he neglected to secure our anniversary weekend, or that I reported he tests to have a VERY HIGH likelihood of being narcissistic. The reason we are not progressing is because he doesn't care if those things bother me.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 05:27 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Sure. I disagree that the failure of progression in my marriage is because I am hurt by what he says to other people, or that I am bothered that he neglected to secure our anniversary weekend,


CWMI, I said nothing of the sort. You have a right to be bothered.

He also has a right to be bothered by the way you are talking about him.

I can choose the way I respond when I am bothered. I can communicate about it in a respectful way, and I can communicate about it in a disrespectful way.

There's one more thing here you could do to make your marriage better, and you're choosing not to do it. So why are you placing 100% of the blame on him when there are things you BOTH aren't doing?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 05:36 PM
What one more thing? Separation?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 05:51 PM
markos, are you going to offer the DJ help or not? Cause I want to read it, if you are so inclined.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 05:51 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
What one more thing? Separation?


No, eliminating disrespectful judgments.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
markos, are you going to offer the DJ help or not? Cause I want to read it, if you are so inclined.


First of all, do you realize that you are DJ'ing your husband all over this thread?

Did you know Dr. Harley says the most important thing for a wife to do with an OCD man is not to judge him?
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
"There are no hopeless cases, but there are those where the person has chosen not to follow the program." From the radio show.

Hy H has chosen to see the program as a manipulation tool and discarded it on that basis after six months of working directly with SH. I'm done putting lipstick on a pig. He does not think he should have to consider my feelings, because doing so is manipulating and controlling.


Again, why should he see the program as anything but manipulation? After all, you come here time and time again saying how broken (my paraphrase) your husband is. So why wouldn't he see the program as nothing more than your attempt to fix your husband?

Furthermore, since you perpetrate on him the same sorts of things you complain about, why would he see this as anything other than manipulation?

I believe you are trying to manipulate us, saying how bad your husband is so we will side with you.

So I can totally understand why your husband would view this as manipulation. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your husband. It means he's more perceptive than you give him credit.

You cannot complain about his behaviors on one hand and excuse the same types of behaviors when perpetrated by you. If your standard is you want him to accept how you feel, then you have to also be willing to accept and permit him to feel and think differently.

You are not willing to do that based on what I've seen you write.

You blame him for not wanting to do the program. But what have you demonstrated as a benefit to him of participating in the program?

Have you picked something you think he wants, or have you picked from his list of things he wants and said the program will address your complaint about X, Y or Z?

It's likely he has chosen not to participate in the program because he finds YOUR application of the program to be manipulative and of little or no benefit to him, or provide no hope to address his complaints about the relationship.

Even if he's all the things you say about him or more, wouldn't he be willing to engage in the program if you made a credible case about how it would improve his life? Of course it would. If he's all about himself, then you have the perfect carrot to offer. The program will address things in the marriage that he complains about, making things better for him.

Since he doesn't see the program in that fashion, and sees it as manipulation, he sees the program as you viewing him as defective and that all the work and none of the benefit goes to him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
markos, are you going to offer the DJ help or not? Cause I want to read it, if you are so inclined.


First of all, do you realize that you are DJ'ing your husband all over this thread?

Did you know Dr. Harley says the most important thing for a wife to do with an OCD man is not to judge him?


No, was not aware of that second point. Radio show?

First point? I thought I was doing pretty well at reporting actual statements made by him, and actual actions--for the most part. I'm sure my opinion slips in there. Straitening him out? I would LOVE to, I would love to be able to get through to him that being thoughtful is in his best interest. He said HIMSELF, "Things at home have been awesome, I don't know what my problem is." Are you just supposed to leave a mentally disordered person alone to figure it out? Ain't gonna happen!

Has Dr. H ordered you to anger management?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:05 PM
EE, if what a person wants is independence and to not have to consider anyone else, there is NOTHING in MB to offer them that.

Nothing.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Call it a judgment call if you like, but a need for excessive admiration is what is also used to make a clinical diagnosis.


None of us here are clinicians, and trying to diagnose what's wrong with our spouse is absolutely counter to Marriage Builders.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
EE, if what a person wants is independence and to not have to consider anyone else, there is NOTHING in MB to offer them that.

Nothing.


Then again, why are you staying with him if you know that's what he wants and you are unwilling to give it to him?

If you've judged things to be impossible, then why do you remain? Sure it's tough to be a single mom. But it doesn't seem easy to be his wife either. So what is it that prevents you from taking this step?

On the other hand, is it really independence he wants, or not to be bothered by you? After all, if he wanted you to get married, what's changed? If he wanted to get married, I doubt he was all about independence then.

So is his apparent changed position due to what he's experienced in his marriage with you? If so, what do you need to change such that marriage with you is more appealing than independence?
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
markos, are you going to offer the DJ help or not? Cause I want to read it, if you are so inclined.


First of all, do you realize that you are DJ'ing your husband all over this thread?

Did you know Dr. Harley says the most important thing for a wife to do with an OCD man is not to judge him?


No, was not aware of that second point. Radio show?

First point? I thought I was doing pretty well at reporting actual statements made by him, and actual actions--for the most part. I'm sure my opinion slips in there. Straitening him out? I would LOVE to, I would love to be able to get through to him that being thoughtful is in his best interest. He said HIMSELF, "Things at home have been awesome, I don't know what my problem is." Are you just supposed to leave a mentally disordered person alone to figure it out? Ain't gonna happen!

Has Dr. H ordered you to anger management?



Ordered, no, but he told me my problems weren't going to get any better until I got into anger management and did something about the situation.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:24 PM
EE, I've already answered that. Married, I can be with the kids everyday and diffuse situations. Divorced, I can't do that.

About getting married in the first place...I thought I had chronicled that conversation at some point on this board. He told me that he felt that getting married and having children was something that happened TO him. Not something HE did. It HAPPENED TO HIM. Do you understand that? I sure don't. All I can do is repeat what he said. I sure thought we were getting married because he asked me and I said yes. Then there was the conversation where he said that the only reason he told me he wanted children (after giving birth to his third child) was because he thought he couldn't have any. Um???? wha?????

I told ya'll at the beginning of this thread I was stupid...
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:37 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: CWMI
markos, are you going to offer the DJ help or not? Cause I want to read it, if you are so inclined.


First of all, do you realize that you are DJ'ing your husband all over this thread?

Did you know Dr. Harley says the most important thing for a wife to do with an OCD man is not to judge him?


No, was not aware of that second point. Radio show?


Yes, I'm looking for segments for you.

Quote:
First point? I thought I was doing pretty well at reporting actual statements made by him, and actual actions--for the most part. I'm sure my opinion slips in there. Straitening him out? I would LOVE to,


The following are disrespectful judgments you have recently posted:

"He will attention-seek no matter what he is doing"
"he won't care, no matter what"
"you can't treat [him]"
"you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not"
"If we lived apart, he wouldn't hear about anything to relay to others, he would have to actually participate"
"I honestly and truly don't think he has the capacity to consider someone besides himself"
"He said no, like a true narcissist who doesn't care about other people, lol"
"Hy H has chosen to see the program as a manipulation tool "
"I'm done putting lipstick on a pig"
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
He told me that he felt that getting married and having children was something that happened TO him. Not something HE did. It HAPPENED TO HIM. Do you understand that? I sure don't. All I can do is repeat what he said.


Can you learn how to be respectful towards his point of view even when you don't understand it and even when you think it is outrageous?
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:20 PM
CWMI,

I think it's very unfair to attempt to armchair diagnose your spouse from internet sites.
Posted By: wifetobe Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:24 PM
CWMI
1. NPD is being removed from a new revision of DSM IV.
2. No, you cannot diagnose a person based on questionnaires.
3. You berate your husband here but justify it by his behaviors you want to change and at the same time you are angry he talked inappropriately about you to his friend. Mirror, mirror on the wall...
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:30 PM
What's unfair is telling your spouse that they shouldn't be disappointed that you lied about planning an anniversary weekend, and if they're going to insist on being disappointed, then you just won't do anything at all. Ever.

"Yeah, you don't like that? Well here, I'll do it again...harder!"

I'm give out, ya'll.

FWIW, I'd like to go on the record as simply requesting that he take that quiz, I did NOT demand it at all, and the results are from his self-reported answers. This is the FULL EXTENT of my request, WORD FOR WORD: "Will you take this test and answer honestly? *link*"

That is the entire conversation pre-test. Every last word of it. It was an email.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: wifetobe
CWMI
1. NPD is being removed from a new revision of DSM IV.
2. No, you cannot diagnose a person based on questionnaires.
3. You berate your husband here but justify it by his behaviors you want to change and at the same time you are angry he talked inappropriately about you to his friend. Mirror, mirror on the wall...


My conversations here are open to my H, he has read my thread. He is welcome to say anything he'd like to about it, I VALUE HIS INPUT and have asked him for it. Seen him? His conversation was meant to be private and I was not ever to know of it. I think there's a difference.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:37 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
What's unfair is telling your spouse that they shouldn't be disappointed that you lied about planning an anniversary weekend, and if they're going to insist on being disappointed, then you just won't do anything at all. Ever.


Yes, that's unfair, too.

Do two wrongs make a right?

You've probably heard some people here use the word "deflection." That's what happens when you come to your husband to tell him about something that bothers you, and instead of addressing the issue you raised, he starts talking about something else that bothers him. It's something people do for some reason that I guess makes them feel better, but it makes it impossible to solve problems.

Anyway, deflection is what you just did. People are trying to show you a very real problem, something you can change. And without looking very closely at the issues they are raising, you brought up the wrong things that he is doing, again. You could do some work here and eliminate some disrespectful judgments. You did agree that those judgments are a problem in marriage.

Your husband is certainly guilty of some pretty mean and nasty stuff.

Disrespect about him from you won't make the situation any better at all, though. It just hands him the perfect excuse not to ever fix anything.

You do believe in Marriage Builders? You want to do things the Marriage Builders way?

Are you open to having us call you on it when you are expressing disrespectful judgments about your husband here on this board?
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: wifetobe
CWMI
1. NPD is being removed from a new revision of DSM IV.
2. No, you cannot diagnose a person based on questionnaires.
3. You berate your husband here but justify it by his behaviors you want to change and at the same time you are angry he talked inappropriately about you to his friend. Mirror, mirror on the wall...


My conversations here are open to my H, he has read my thread. He is welcome to say anything he'd like to about it, I VALUE HIS INPUT and have asked him for it. Seen him? His conversation was meant to be private and I was not ever to know of it. I think there's a difference.


Okay. Are you saying this is the reason why you want to continue to engage in disrespectful judgments?
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:44 PM
By your willingness to stay, you demonstrate to your husband you will tolerate his behavior.

With your behaviors, doing many of the very same things, you tell him that such behaviors are really OK.

What ACTIONS are you taking, not just words, but real actions, are you taking to say that such behaviors are neither acceptable, nor will you tolerate them any further?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:45 PM
Absolutely, markos. I believe in MB, and I believe it takes two to work. My H *pretends* to meet my needs "There's no travel! I can't get online access! I booked our weekend away!" and it's LIES, markos. I'm not talking about some guy who flounders or forgets to pick up milk. I'm talking about someone who consciously and intentionally lies to continue a fantasy where he is perfect. Yes, that's a DJ. It is also sadly, my life.
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/06/11 07:54 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Absolutely, markos. I believe in MB, and I believe it takes two to work.


You're absolutely right about that, no bones about it. It doesn't work unless both people come on board.

Quote:
My H *pretends* to meet my needs "There's no travel! I can't get online access! I booked our weekend away!" and it's LIES, markos. I'm not talking about some guy who flounders or forgets to pick up milk. I'm talking about someone who consciously and intentionally lies to continue a fantasy where he is perfect.


You're absolutely right, that is what HE is doing that is ruining your marriage.

But again, can we talk about what YOU are doing? The problem with having a reluctant spouse is that you can't get them on board when you've got blind spots that justify continuing in the behaviors that are bothering them.

Quote:
Yes, that's a DJ. It is also sadly, my life.


The thing about disrespectful judgments is that there was always a respectful way to say the same thing, without being disrespectful or judgmental at all. You have a choice. You can talk about the problems and the things he is doing wrong without committing a DJ. You don't have to show us how bad it is by your language. We know how bad it is. You can talk about it without going over the top.

As an example, I thought that paragraph was pretty good, but "continuously" is hyperbolic. When I get hyperbolic like that, I know that Prisca is going to feel that I am being disrespectful. Because I am!

And "to continue a fantasy where he is perfect" is your own judgment of his motivation. No matter what tests you have given him, it is disrespectful to try to tell someone what they think like that.

Instead of
Quote:
I'm talking about someone who consciously and intentionally lies to continue a fantasy where he is perfect.


You can instead say:

Quote:
My husband has repeatedly lied and is telling me all the blame in our marriage lies with me, and I am hopping mad about that.


No assertion that he continuously lies. No judgment of why he's doing it. Just a relation of cause and effect: he has lied, he is blaming you, and it makes you mad.

If you tell yourself that you have no choice but to be disrespectful, you will continue to justify your abusive responses to his behavior. But it's not true that you have to respond this way, and it's not true that you have to talk this way when you describe your marital problems.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 08:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
By your willingness to stay, you demonstrate to your husband you will tolerate his behavior.

With your behaviors, doing many of the very same things, you tell him that such behaviors are really OK.

What ACTIONS are you taking, not just words, but real actions, are you taking to say that such behaviors are neither acceptable, nor will you tolerate them any further?


This isn't saying anything I haven't already said myself, EE. I know what I need to do. The only actions I'm taking at this point is attending college.

Okay, took a break from posting this, the phone rang, it was H. I asked him if he had booked anything yet for the second-choice weekend. He said no. I told him that I was struggling with the disappointment of him doing this to me again (more on that later) and I wasn't willing to accept seconds on something I had looked forward to so much, that I didn't think I'd be able to properly appreciate it because of my disappointment so I'd rather plan something new, how did he feel about planning a family weekend instead? He said okay, he understood, he was sorry.

My biggest issue here is the timeline, if that makes sense. Here is my 'more on that': the standard timeline is that he assures me of changes that I've requested, I believe him, everything is great for a while, then wham! I find out months later that what he told me wasn't true. It wasn't true that the new job had no travel or spouse-excluding cocktail parties, it wasn't true that he could not give me online access to his email, it wasn't true that he had booked our weekend away. So it's the in-between time when things are great that bothers me, because all this while HE knows it's based on a lie, but I don't. So I question my happiness; I was happy because we were getting along well and enjoying each other, but the whole time he knew about this timebomb in his pocket. So I was only happy because everything I knew was wrong. It's absolutely maddening.

I hope I get approval of the board for planning something new for the new weekend instead of allowing him to shift me around at his convenience again. Good? Bad? I don't know what else to do, all I know is I would have hated to settle for second.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 05/06/11 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The reason we are not progressing is because he doesn't care if those things bother me.

CWMI, I’m really feeling your frustration over all of this. I was reading your thread religiously back when I was really struggling through the end of my marriage, but I will admit I’ve missed a few weeks so correct me if my observations are off…

It sounds like everyone one really wants to help you, and I hope you see that I want to help too. I just remember when I first came here I didn’t realize how often I DJ my ex. And here’s the kicker: since I was reared to be the “submissive wife.” I rarely *voiced* any of my DJs toward my husband but the disrespect I felt for him was evident in the way I carried myself, the tone of my voice when I talked to him, things like that. I never meant to be that way, it was how I was. And I couldn’t see it, but others could. So I mean it with the utmost care and respect for you when I say, I honestly think toning down the DJs is a good starting point for you. It might not change your husband the way everyone says it will, but it may help reduce your personal level of anger, stress, and frustration.

That radio snippet Markos posted talks about how some people are born to be thoughtless and finding a motivation (that means something to them) that is strong enough to help them overcome this tendency.

It seems like you have observed that he will not change. At the same time, leaving your husband is unacceptable for you because a) you think it gives him freedom from the responsibility he took on when he married you and had 4 kids, and b) you are concerned that you won’t be able to as effectively manage/provide for the kids if you divorce, and c) you are pretty sure you’d effectively become a single mom because his past behavior indicates he wouldn’t be very involved if you and the kids moved out. Life stinks but divorce would make it stink worse.

So it sounds like you are stuck. And you don’t know how to make things better. Because he isn’t going to change. And you feel justifiably angry and frustrated that you’re in this place.

Let’s just say he doeshave NPD. Then what? I know you didn’t actually SAY he didn’t care, you said “He said no, like a true narcissist who doesn't care about other people, lol." But let’s just say he REALLY doesn’t care about people. Or, more specifically, let’s say he cares about pleasing others outside the home but doesn’t care and won’t ever care about making CWMI happy.

If you’re going to stay with him for the next 5, 10 years… How are you going to make YOUR life better? How are you going to make things easier, less frustrating, more fun for CWMI. Forget about the marriage for a quick second: if he’s not going to change… what can you do to make CWMI less stressed?

What is one thing you can do today that even if your husband never changes will make CWMI’s life better tomorrow?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/06/11 08:36 PM
Daisy, the one thing I'm doing today (well, not technically today) is going to college, which I find terribly fulfilling and stressful in the most wonderful way. I've secured THREE scholarships for next year, which nets me an income. One is a state scholarship for my GPA, it pays 100% of my tuition, and the other two are from the department of my major. I am the student leader of our literary organization and will be in charge of many events over the year (besides putting out the magazine), many of which I was assistant on for the last year. I love all this!
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 05/06/11 08:56 PM
so glad to hear that!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/07/11 08:33 PM
markos--are you converting my word 'consciously' to 'continuously'?

Is it a DJ to say someone is conscious? He did say he knew about the weekend thing; he said he talked to his boss and got a verbal okay for the weekend in question, so that's why he told me he had it off. But he never got it in writing, something he knew was required <<his words. I asked him, nicely, "Did you talk to boss and remind him that he gave you a verbal?" No, he did not. He just put in for a replacement weekend since he 'knew he would never get that one approved now with the scheduled event.'<<his words.

His words: "I know I screwed up."

My words: "Yeah. Stop it."

What do you think of the change in plans? Planning something new rather than trying to have a romantic weekend knowing I've been pushed aside for work--again? We're taking the kids camping.

I don't know how I'm going to get through the day of our anniv. knowing he's at a big work event instead of with me, like he promised. I'm madder cause the whole thing was his idea. The event is during normal hours, I would have been deliriously happy with planning an evening out instead, if I had only been informed. Now an evening out is a HUGE LETDOWN from a romantic weekend in a swanky hotel--we already asked my brother to come keep the kids!!! omg, I need to call him...no, H needs to call him. Right.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 05/08/11 04:13 AM
In some ways, we have similar husbands, CWMI. I've heard the same remarks about "feelings" from my DH that you hear from yours.

But with your anniversary, I believe your DH made a genuine mistake. I think he had all intent to go on that romantic weekend. I believe he got a verbal ok and forgot to do a written follow-up and set the plans in stone. He probably figured he'd take care of wrapping up the details in the short term, and things fell off the radar.

I think he forgot to secure the plans,and once it was too late, he realized his error and felt sheepish about it.

And I also believe he is afraid of hurting you and of your wrath over his forgetfulness.

But if he was just blowing you off way back in Feb. and didn't intend to go, your brother wouldn't have been asked to come keep the kids. NPD's wouldn't make that type of move, only to have egg on their face. Neither would a sociopath.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 05/08/11 04:55 AM
Btw, my DH recently had a major "ah, stink" moment. Our anniversary is this month, but we decided to celebrate at a concert in June. DH and DD got a promo code discount for tix and this concert event is/was going to be a combo DD's 15th bday gift, DS' 1st bday gift, and our anni gift/ celebration. We purchased the tix several weeks ago.

Well, last week DH called me from work to tell me there is no PTO from the last week in May until the last week in June. I stayed calm with him over the phone, but had to get out the house for a good cry after relaying the message to DD. No PTO = no concert for my DH. They are all hands on deck during that PTO black-out.

Lo and behold, at the time when my DH had called me about the PTO situation, he didn't even remember the concert. He was just letting me know about no PTO. When he got home after work, and I wasn't home, he called my cell to see where I was. (I had told the kids I was going to pay some bills.) I said I was in a parking lot crying, and he said "Parking lot crying? That's weird! Btw, I'm home." I told him that I was sad about the change of plans for the concert and that I'd be home soon.

You know, my DH was thinking "Oh, crap, I forgot about the concert" when I told him in the tearful phone conversation from the parking lot. (He just let me know this as I'm writing to you.) Also, (he just admitted this to me as I inquired) my DH hadn't secured the PTO several weeks ago when he originally ordered the concert tix. (He says he was planning for putting in the PTO, but forgot.) So, here I've been thinking this past week that my DH's original call about the PTO was to let me know he wasn't able to attend the concert. When it was just him letting me know there was a company wide PTO black-out. Silly me. wink

He just said, "You're mad, aren't you?" My reply, "Nope. I'm not mad." And I'm not. I'm used to it. No need to kick a guy in the nuts when he's already feeling sheepish. But it does make me, as I write this, wonder how much I do assume in my convos with my DH and how often he allows me to believe whatever it is I'm assuming, even when he knows my assumption is incorrect or off.

I have to say, I can really relate to what you're going through at times, CWMI. Just thought I'd share my crazy anniversary situation with you.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/08/11 05:42 AM
Originally Posted By: RareMamaJewel
Btw, my DH recently had a major "ah, stink" moment. Our anniversary is this month, but we decided to celebrate at a concert in June. DH and DD got a promo code discount for tix and this concert event is/was going to be a combo DD's 15th bday gift, DS' 1st bday gift, and our anni gift/ celebration. We purchased the tix several weeks ago.

Well, last week DH called me from work to tell me there is no PTO from the last week in May until the last week in June. I stayed calm with him over the phone, but had to get out the house for a good cry after relaying the message to DD. No PTO = no concert for my DH. They are all hands on deck during that PTO black-out.

Lo and behold, at the time when my DH had called me about the PTO situation, he didn't even remember the concert. He was just letting me know about no PTO. When he got home after work, and I wasn't home, he called my cell to see where I was. (I had told the kids I was going to pay some bills.) I said I was in a parking lot crying, and he said "Parking lot crying? That's weird! Btw, I'm home." I told him that I was sad about the change of plans for the concert and that I'd be home soon.

You know, my DH was thinking "Oh, crap, I forgot about the concert" when I told him in the tearful phone conversation from the parking lot. (He just let me know this as I'm writing to you.) Also, (he just admitted this to me as I inquired) my DH hadn't secured the PTO several weeks ago when he originally ordered the concert tix. (He says he was planning for putting in the PTO, but forgot.) So, here I've been thinking this past week that my DH's original call about the PTO was to let me know he wasn't able to attend the concert. When it was just him letting me know there was a company wide PTO black-out. Silly me. wink

He just said, "You're mad, aren't you?" My reply, "Nope. I'm not mad." And I'm not. I'm used to it. No need to kick a guy in the nuts when he's already feeling sheepish. But it does make me, as I write this, wonder how much I do assume in my convos with my DH and how often he allows me to believe whatever it is I'm assuming, even when he knows my assumption is incorrect or off.

I have to say, I can really relate to what you're going through at times, CWMI. Just thought I'd share my crazy anniversary situation with you.




I'm sure my own W could come up with stories like these.

It's not NPD, not Sociopathic... it's the fact that I live life by the seat of my pants.

W is a very detailed planner. She refers to herself as OCD.

Again, this comes down to two different types of people, two different types of planners.

If it comes down to it, you have to help each other even out without treading LB waters. This can be difficult - remind pleasantly.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 05/08/11 07:33 PM
I had many experiences like this with my ex, with companies that are now bankrupt. B doesn't even use these folks as references. Momentary gains for now-gone companies, but now my kids will grow up in a broken home. Such is life. I hope like in the When To call it quits article, the one with the sexless marriage, you are able to find the outside help to get the message across while you are still enthusiastic about making it work. Whatever you think.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 05/09/11 01:01 PM
Originally Posted By: cwmi
I hate it when divorced people start encouraging everyone else to get divorced, too.


What a nasty, untrue comment to make. How many folks do you help IRL make their marriages better in tangible ways like watching their kids so they can get time alone together?
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 05/09/11 01:51 PM
This isn't about 2 different types of planners. Although I have to agree it's about flying by the seat of one's pants (which both my DH and I do). And it isn't necessarily that we don't plan. We just have that many proverbial "pots on the stove".

I also have to say that normally I wouldn't have cried over a concert. I usually take things in stride...I've had way worse anniversaries....but the thought of not having my DH with me makes me very sad. We've had a very rough past 18 mos dealing with a handful of serious issues and I was looking for a good get away from reality for a few hours.

However, I think CWMI's situation is much different from mine in the way her husband approaches things. In the case of their anniversary celebration, I believe this time he was genuine. But in the past, he's been happy to tell her one thing while doing something different. That New Orleans trip she had to jump through hoops to go on this past autumn is a good example of what she is dealing with normally.

So CWMI does try to plan together with her DH, only to find out at the last moment, her husband has run a different itinerary than the one he led her to plan with him. If she doesn't like it, too bad, he's sticking with his itinerary and CWMI better change her ("their") plans to accommodate what he has known all along, but kept from her. Crazy-making if you ask me.

It's also the reason so many her have told her to plan S with D. But CWMI isn't ready for that. And we can't tell her to detach, because that's going to leave her in a very vulnerable position (one that Dr Harley says is ripe for an A). As long as she's angry, she's still invested in the M.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 05/09/11 02:00 PM
CWMI, your academic achievements are awesome and it's great that you have income from the scholarship(s). know what? When I read that post, it dawned on me those are the types of achievements and go-getter perspectives that you and your DH have in common.

If you want any chance of salvaging your M, then you are going to have to find the common ground that you and your DH share. And share it.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 05/09/11 03:39 PM
Hey CWMI, I can't get on here as often as I like, so I don't really understand all the flame stuff, but there's some info on the hey daisy thread I thought would be good for you... if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to repost it here...?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/09/11 04:03 PM
We actually had a really good day yesterday. He had the little ones paint pictures for me, and ds14 did a pencil drawing of the word MOM with four little hands built into the letters (well, three little and one 'Sasquatch' hand--he plays guitar and definitely has the hands built for it) with a really nice letter attached. H made breakfast, we packed up a picnic and went to a nearby waterfall and ate and hiked, then went out for dinner, then sat on the back porch for HOURS talking after the kids were down. We had a bottle of Dom in the fridge that H brought home from one of his events that he suggested we save for our anniv.--we drank it last night, lol. I told him it was the best Mother's Day I'd ever had, and he cried. So he's not completely unfeeling.

I *think* he may be ready to deal with issues with his father. I'm trying to encourage without pushing. He was the one who brought up the topic, but yeah, I think a lot of our issues can be tied back to the rage H feels.

He's also enraged about one old friend of his who he never hears from. Yeah, he was wide open last night, it was wonderful. Anyway, he was saying how much it bothered him that this guy never calls, never inquires into H's life, after all, "He saved my life!" I looked at him and said, "So now he owes you?" bwa-ha-ha, that sounds so heartless writing it down, it would be hard to relay the entire conversation, it was really a good moment of clarity for both of us.

It was a great day.

About the 'two types of planners' thing--I'm with RMJ, this isn't about a pantser with a planner. This is about withholding relevant information. He just sent me a calendar that he received at the beginning of the year from the owner with dates that they are closed for holidays and dates that nobody may request off. Our anniv. is on there as a blacked-out date for time off. He said he was SURE he'd sent me that calendar when he'd gotten it. We went through my email, no calendar. I know I've never seen it. Why he didn't consult it, I have no clue. But now I know he was told he could NOT have that weekend off--in writing--a few weeks before he told me he had gotten it off.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/09/11 04:06 PM
Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
Hey CWMI, I can't get on here as often as I like, so I don't really understand all the flame stuff, but there's some info on the hey daisy thread I thought would be good for you... if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to repost it here...?


If you'd like to post to me, I have this shiny thread here, ready for it.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 05/09/11 09:27 PM
Ok, here it is:

Quote:
Sometimes I hear myself yelling after my son, and I stop and say to myself, "Did I really just SOUND like that???" My speech to him (and his dad every couple months when he calls, lol) is MUCH better and MUCH more respectful now.

We really don't realize how harsh we can be.

Do I think I was justified in some of my judgments, disrespectful as they are? sure I do. The man quit his job (for no reason other than I don't want to work anymore) when we already couldn't paid bills with our two incomes, then ran up both our cards (behind my back) buying into "business opportunities" and wining and dining people who thought he was a millionaire, lost six figures of home equity loans (I don't know what happened to the money), tried to drug me, and beat my kid senseless. Told me he knew I'd find a way to cover all these bills b/c if not I'd lose my security clearance, hence my job. And he was right. Even on active duty military I still worked another job on commission (making the same as my military salary) and then a 3rd job and still couldn't cover the expenses he was running up. And then, after the divorce, I found out that he'd had an EA with one of my best friends. My mom tried to tell me about it while we were married, but I thought she was just being paranoid.

So yeah, when I criticized him internally, I think I was justified.

But even people who fail their families and marriages are still people. And deserve to be treated with respect. As bad as he was, I still could have cleaned up my side of the street.

And in cleaning up my side of the street, I have made a MUCH better life for myself. I never would have believed you if you told me that getting rid of the DJs (as right as they may seem) helps to keep my blood from boiling. I kinda now live with the knowledge that people do dumb things, disrespectful things, mean things, selfish things. They do me wrong. And while I try not to be that way myself, every once in awhile I am. So I let them have their moments. "live and let live." My stress levels are WAY down.

So I was hoping I could explain to CWMI is that she has the power to make her life better for herself and her kids. Not perfect, if her husband never comes around the way she wants, but BETTER. And who knows, if he enjoys being around her more, if she finds away to meet that need for admiration that he is so very motivated to get from the workplace, then maybe he will begin to soften to her. But even if she doesn't, her life can be so much less frustrating.

A funny thing is, now a days I actually see MORE times when *I'm* the selfish/dumb/mean one, but not in a "beat myself up" kind of way... more like a, "Oh wow, I cut that guy off when I made my turn. I didn't see him. Oops" where as before I would not have realized I was in the wrong and would have thought to myself "what a loser, why is this guy honking at me? he needs to learn to drive."

Don't worry if you think I'm crazy, I already realize my mind is still a work in progress, lol!

Unfortunately, even though I'm better at DJs, I still have a problem with "big mouth itis." This thread has my name in it, so this is not a T/J is it? Lol! See, I love to tell funny stories about myself. Being in the ministry so long, I have a very transparent life. Very few secrets, and none that would make anyone blush. Unfortunately, I sometimes forget that other people generally DON'T like people to tell funny stories about their lives. I was out with a group of girls tonight, including the cute/nice guy from church. I was in the middle of telling them a story about the last man I dated when I remembered what a girlfriend and I had discussed after the last time: He's probably not asking you out one-on-one because he doesn't want to end up as one of your stories!!!

One of these days I'll get it right!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/10/11 12:40 PM
It is not a DJ to tell your spouse that they are LBing you. The stuff about him lacking empathy are WORDS FROM HIS OWN MOUTH. The NPD stuff is from his own self-reported quiz. That I did not demand he take.

I don't think I really need to get into his DJs, his attempts to 'straighten me out.' When he says these things to me, I respond with things like, "I just told you that it hurt me. Why would you say it didn't?" That's not a DJ.

It's not a DJ to desire that your spouse get help if they need it, and thoughtfully request that they do. He had a tough day yesterday, so he came home and vacuumed the top of the door frames. I'm torn--I do think we should have self-soothing strategies, and there are certainly worse ones than cleaning, but it has so often come with verbal abuse that I brace when he takes out the cleaning stuff. He's read up enough on OCD to know that it's a self-soothing thing, so I'm frustrated that he still claims he can't relax because we/I neglected to leave the bathroom spotless or didn't dust the top of the door.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/10/11 03:37 PM
For whom are you circling back on that?

I kinda handle you with a ten foot pole attached to a ten foot pole, CWMI.

But, there is one thing burned into the front of my brain in this whole thing - the proud way you will let people know that "Steve Harley said my H is a jerk." Or however it works. How glaringly satisfied you are to place it all squarely in his lap.

That's fantastic.

How's it working for you so far?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/10/11 03:54 PM
I never said that SH said any such thing.

Daisy posted what she was saying about me in another thread, I read it as saying that I needed to drop the djs even if they are 'justified', and I was responding to her.

It was wonderful to me for SH to suggest OCD. I had driven myself crazy trying to meet the housekeeping needs of a person who would never be satisfied because he has to do it himself as a soothing mechanism. It was a relief, HHH. Now H can go off and instead of feeling inferior and trying harder to p,ease him, I can refocus on telling him not to speak to me that way. So far, he's done nothing about dealing with OCD, which is actually fine with me so long as he doesn't blame the rest of us. Life is messy, clean it up. Lol.

I don't see why you needed to make the ten foot pole comment. If you feel you must stay away from me, please try harder! Lol.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 05/10/11 06:34 PM
Hi CWMI, I'm not telling you to drop the DJs for your husband's sake. I don't know if that would impact him the way everyone keeps telling you it will if he really has a disorder.

I say that because my ex has not been formally diagnosed, but he is the kind of guy who I’ve never seen (in 12 years of marriage plus 3 years of dating) exhibit remorse for having hurt someone. I’ve seen him be sad about things not working out for him, but that’s not the same thing. So I tried all the “fix your marriage” stuff but you can’t fix NPD. The person has to be motivated to fix it themselves.

The reason I’m asking you to look at some of your feelings and frustrations about your H, is for YOUR sake. For your own peace of mind. To see if there’s a way you can view it that causes less frustration, less stress, less anger for YOU. I don’t care about your H. He sounds like a selfish jerk to me. Wait... is that a DJ? lol! I’d probably still be married to my own ex-jerk if he hadn’t lost his mind. But by changing my internal dialogue, I was able to come to greater peace and less frustration until we actually divorced. I hear an extreme amount of frustration in your posts, and I don’t think you should be doomed to that eternally just because your H won’t change.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Duped - 05/11/11 05:50 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I never said that SH said any such thing.

Daisy posted what she was saying about me in another thread, I read it as saying that I needed to drop the djs even if they are 'justified', and I was responding to her.

It was wonderful to me for SH to suggest OCD. I had driven myself crazy trying to meet the housekeeping needs of a person who would never be satisfied because he has to do it himself as a soothing mechanism. It was a relief, HHH. Now H can go off and instead of feeling inferior and trying harder to p,ease him, I can refocus on telling him not to speak to me that way. So far, he's done nothing about dealing with OCD, which is actually fine with me so long as he doesn't blame the rest of us. Life is messy, clean it up. Lol.

I don't see why you needed to make the ten foot pole comment. If you feel you must stay away from me, please try harder! Lol.


Sometimes I fail to be as honest and direct as I should be in observations. So, balancing hrdwr observations with the risk of being shut out completely requires that long pole.

Should I mention this? Is it worth the probable cost?

So, no. I don't want to run, I just want to preserve the opportunity to offer help. Battling the "people pleaser" in me.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 05/11/11 01:36 PM
I agree with Daisy that you'll have to learn reduce your frustration with your DH in the meantime.
Posted By: RareMamaJewel Re: Duped - 05/11/11 02:46 PM
Btw, CWMI, I'm happy to read that you had a great Mom's Day. I liked the spontaneity of drinking the Dom, instead of saving it for the anniversary. I think it mellowed the moment so you two would relax and let your guard down.

As far as the calendar, that stinks. But your post makes it seem like he thought he had sent it to you, but was mistaken. It also shows that he is flying by the seat of his pants at work...he isn't looking at that calendar for reference, he's going along on auto-drive.

But those are my assumptions.

Just because someone is successful in business doesn't mean they are successful in personal relationships. Oprah's a perfect example.

OCD aside, this could be a lack of understanding how to balance work life and home life on your DH's part. These skills have to be learned somewhere and it sounds like they weren't modeled to your husband by his parents. If that's the case, he doesn't know how to combine a work and personal life. Work is in the "work" compartment and "personal" is in its compartment. He knows how to do his work successfully and success is measurable: sales, bonuses, income, reviews, accolades, etc. He's successful at work and work is probably the top thing that translates success into his personal life. His work provides for the financial and material well-being of his family. Since it's this way, he will focus more on work (and doubly so if the work environment is where he gets an admiration or recreational EN met).

In many ways, you are competing against that very same thing which provides for your life and your family's life. And you're going to have to sell your husband on why it's in his best interest to make changes, esp if what he's doing allows his family to have/be so different from that misery that I perceive he grew up in.


Sell the salesman.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/11/11 08:07 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


So, no. I don't want to run, I just want to preserve the opportunity to offer help. Battling the "people pleaser" in me.



smile

Battle away. I only chase off people who have told me not to post to them, but then post to me.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/11/11 08:21 PM
RMJ, there are lots of speculations that may be made. I know he wants something entirely different from what he grew up with.

Right now, I just started Maymester today, and I'm going to be intensely busy for the next three weeks.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/11/11 08:23 PM
Oh, too, want to add: I did hire SH to 'sell' him. I don't think I can be any more successful than Steve was--I'm an amateur, after all. If six months of talking to Steve didn't work, I don't think anything can.

Back to busy, busy...homework up the REAR!
Posted By: markos Re: Duped - 05/15/11 07:31 PM
But you didn't do everything you needed to do as part of the plan. You didn't eliminate disrespectful judgments. They are still going on. There's no way Steve or anyone else could bring your husband on board if you're not following the plan. In that respect, you ARE a better persuader than Steve, or at least you have the potential to be, for your own husband.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/15/11 08:13 PM
From the DJ article of the basic concepts:
Quote:
I'm not saying that you can't disagree with your spouse. But I want you to respectfully disagree. Try to understand your spouse's reasoning. Present the information that brought you to your opinion and listen to the information your spouse brings. Entertain the possibility that you might change your own mind, instead of just pointing out how wrong your spouse is.


That's what I do, markos. The whole empathy conversation was that.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 05/31/11 10:07 PM
Good news: finals tomorrow and Maymester is done!

Bad news: I'm annoyed. smile

I think I mentioned the hunting thing before. Short version: H came home when the youngest child was just a couple weeks old and announced he was 'taking up hunting again'. Surprised me, I never knew he hunted to begin with. Never mentioned it, none of his friends or family mentioned it, he had no equipment, not even a camouflage cap...anyway, this was pre-MB, but I attempted a POJA, didn't work because he agreed to it then did what he wanted to anyway. It was a horrible experience. He sold all the new equipment he bought and it's been a non-issue since then.

Til today. smile Same guy he was with during The Phone Call (earlier upthread) sent him an email about his hunting property and an offer: "I'll take you in Oct/Nov". My initial reaction was something like, "The he** you will." H's response to the email was non-committal and didn't reference the invite at all.

Here's where I'm annoyed: H didn't meet this guy until several years after the 'hunting incident'. But obviously he's been talking about hunting with this guy and has indicated an interest in doing the activity. Further annoyed because I talked to H about it and he denied ever indicating that he had an interest in it. Huh, wha? Okay, I said, then why don't you decline the offer? He said: "I haven't really decided whether I would want to go or not."

Fair enough. Problem is, I can't think of a single thing that would make me enthusiastic about my H taking up a hobby like hunting. Before MB, I attempted to 'sacrifice' to make him happy but I'm not going to do that now! I don't want to be married to someone who goes off on hunting trips. Good Lord, we've had enough issue with business trips. I've already told him before that I never would have married a hunter. I'm resentful over trying to give him what he wanted before and getting taken advantage of. I still have no interest in a person who goes hunting, or on any other overnight activity, and I don't trust him NOT to stay overnight because we've made that agreement so many times before and I got screwed every. freaking. time. I want it back to non-issue.

So, for POJA, I'm okay to stick with not-enthusiastic-ever-nevah stance, right? I was NOT enthusiastic before when I agreed to him going. I am much, much less enthusiastic now. It would take less than one season for me to not love him. I would seethe with anger the first minute he was out the door just remembering that night he abandoned me with a newborn+2 babies+7yo.

Okay, this might work for POJA: take us with him, and hunt with his sons. I could agree to that. Good? He wants to talk about it later.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 12:06 AM
I don't understand the seething with anger at anything besides child abuse, molestation, and infidelity. Oh and the fact that if you're black you have a different set of standards (lower) to recieve public assistance in Oklahoma than if you're white. I'm on the phone tomorrow to cause a storm and picket in front of DHS until this racism is noticed.

Okay, so that didn't help at all with your post.

Anyway...I think everyone going would be a great idea.

Anyway, I wasn’t enthusiastic about camping. But I could see that it would mean so much to my wife and the kids wanted to go. So what the heck…24 hours out camping aint going to kill me. So we went. They even had a rapids ride so it was slightly better. Except I can’t remember if the water was so high or so low that there were no rapids so I was stuck in this little raft with my mom and my 8 year old for like 2 hours slloooooooowly drifting down this river. That sucked. So the kids at some point forgot to zip back up the tent and it poured down. We get back to the tent all drenched and most of the tent is filled with rain except for the main part of it. So there’s like 7 of us sleeping in this 1 area that’s meant for 2-3 and we couldn’t leave it open because it was pouring down like a civ. I had an absolutely horrible time. I think the worst time is I griped the entire time and made it very clear I was miserable. Talk about a joy kill. You know what I regret the most about that? Being a jerk about it. It meant so much to the kids and my wife to go on this camping trip. So I’ve agreed to go again when we take off down to San Antonio in a couple weeks. But I’m going to be happy and pleasant about it. My unhappiness or whatever you want to call it about not wanting to be camping will be very short lived but my wife and kids will have a very long term happy memory. Anyway, I know that a lot of us have preconceived notions on what we would love and hate. I thought, “eh…I’ll try this camping thing…maybe, just maybe I’ll like it.”

Anyway, I’m just kinda’ rambling. Your situation kinda’ reminded me of the whole camping thing. If camping/hunting doesn’t repulse you, this might be a great family thing if all of y’all go.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 12:19 AM
We just went camping over the weekend. laugh

I love camping, now that the kids are older. Babies + camping = no fun. frown

But this weekend was a blast!

I seethe with anger over abandonment, kt. He left me against my will *overnight* (no overnight was the agreement we made) with a newborn, a 1yo, and a 2yo. The oldest wasn't demanding at that point, but the rest were. Yes, seething is the correct word, and anger is the emotion I mean to convey. I was mad as hell. Compounded by his nyah-nyah-not-answering-the-phone thing. WTH? They are his children, too. How do you just disappear? Who does that kind of thing?

ps--just remember not to call it "reverse racism." The standards should be equal. Are there black people in Oklahoma? Why? ATL is THE place for upwardly mobile African Americans. Send them here!
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 12:37 AM
Yeah, I might POJA the camping trip to wait for another year or two since our 2.5 year old wouldn't have fun and that would take a lot of extra work and stress to chase him around in the woods.

My idea of camping is when we go to the lake and get to sleep on the family house boat which is docked about 50 yards from the lake house which we can run in and get a shower and have food cooked on a stove/grill in the AC smile Don't get me wrong, I like the outdoors so long as it's not sharing public showers and bathrooms and sleeping outside with critters that crawl and slither.

I was just thinking...that anger that you've been holding onto have you thought about letting it go? That was many years ago? Like 5 or so ago? I think eventually you have to forgive or the resentment continues to eat at you.

I only say this because my exwife used to have abandoning activities quite frequently and I held onto that resentment and anger for so long. It affected teh way I viewed others (like if someone did something in their marriage that I wouldn't like they were a bad spouse and it would make me angry and how could they treat their spouse taht way). When, really, if their spouse is okay with it then why am I angry.

Anyway, yes...we have a few black people here. My wife called them and asked if she could get food stamps while she was in school aand they asked if she was black. Because she's not, she wasn't okay to receive benefits. We also found out that even with as much as we make, we'd be able to receive food stamps if we were black. Seriously?! You mean those people getting fodo stamps that drive Cadiallacs are only getting them because they're black?! Now htat makes my blood boil.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 12:50 AM
They asked her race??? That's so crazy wrong. I don't think we have anything like that here. I'd move. laugh

Actually, I'd go down there and apply, and get it IN WRITING if there is racial discrimination going on. Get a REASON for the decline. She might have talked to someone who isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer. Civil servants aren't generally well-paid, so the profession draws a mix of dedicated people and those who simply take an available job.

I HAD let my anger go about that incident, but it bubbles up when triggered. It's not something I'm angry about all the time, and I'm not angry right now...I'm cautious, and bracing. I feel a selfish moment coming on, and I hate those. He hasn't decided? How much time does one need to decide whether or not to do something they know their spouse abhors???
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 03:22 AM
Ah, so, the whole 'talk about it later' thing didn't go well. He said, "Don't worry, I'm not going to go." I said, "So tell your buddy that." He said he would. I asked him what he was going to say. He said he would just say thanks but no.

I want a little more than that. *sigh* I'm so demanding! I want the story I know to match the story everyone else involved knows. He already told the guy that he was "happy to learn how to answer his phone so I wouldn't call him so much"; I want him to tell him the truth about why he will not be joining him on a hunting trip. Apparently there's more of a relationship there than I thought--I've never met the guy.

I just want openness and honesty in my life. I would NEVER entertain the thought of going on a trip with someone else, much less with someone my H had never met. I would never think to invite someone else's spouse on a trip with me. People are just so wrong...
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Duped - 06/01/11 11:52 AM
cwmi I totally understand why you're upset and why you want your H to line up his words to outsiders to the values that you and your H share sometimes. All that stuff has upset me too over the years. But you've been here long enough to know that there is nothing anywhere in MB that says you get to decide what he says to other people. How open he chooses to be with other people or not.

I see the issue as a split in values between you two. The tool for that is the respectful persuasion. But there is no guarantee that your H is going to come to share your values.

Have you ever watched the movie Fireproof together? It's a great movie that shows the kind of heart change it sounds like you're looking for.

Maybe this can be a growth opportunity together.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 06/01/11 02:36 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I HAD let my anger go about that incident, but it bubbles up when triggered.


In my life, when I have things that make me angry all over again when something new-but-similar pops up, I have found that I really haven't let it go. I may have let the incident itself go, but I have not let the hurt, anger, feeling disrespected and unloved go. When a new similar incident comes back, so do all those old feelings.

I can't even begin to tell you how to let it go because it hurts you so bad that he would even consider going on these trips without you.

Two other things came to mind when I read this:

1. Your hubby didn’t immediately say “no” but his response to the guy who asked him also didn’t say “yes.” “H's response to the email was non-committal and didn't reference the invite at all.” I interpret that as a political/polite way of being noncommittal until he could make up his mind. I know that probably sounds crazy, because I’m the direct kind of person who will never say “yes” to something I already know I won’t do, but LOTS of people do this just to be polite. Especially if the last hunting trip was bad, and if this guy’s relationship might be good for business down the line.

2. If I’m hearing you right, it sounds like you aren’t happy with him just saying “thanks but no” because you want him to tack on something that honors you and reflects that you disapprove of such trips. I’m not a guy, but I think most guys would have a very hard time doing that because a) they don’t want to be rude or look less manly and b) your H does not appear to feel the same way you do about these trips (seeing as he takes so many of them). I’m honestly thinking your H had a good (though maybe not the best) response.

Originally Posted By: CWMI
that night he abandoned me with a newborn+2 babies+7yo.


If I just read this most recent incident alone, without knowledge of the above, I would wonder why you’re so explosively angry over such a non-issue. He didn’t commit, and after you talked about it, he said he was going to tell the guy no.

My heart hurts for you, because it seems like you get so very frustrated over things you cannot control, and I have no concrete suggestions to help you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 05:37 PM
Ugh, I forgot how totally depressing anniversary cards are...I would really like to be able to buy one of them that says, "You are my rock, you have always been there for me and loved me so thoroughly, etc..." They just make me cry. I did find an apt one, though; it's about dreams for the future and sharing and waking up every morning beside him for the rest of my life.

I've been thinking a lot about why it's important to me that he let this guy know the truth of the situation. I already know they talk about their marriages with each other (um, heard it!), so it's not like it would be a new topic of conversation, so that would lessen any awkwardness about bringing it up. I'm thinking of it like 'peer pressure', something that happened a lot with the old group of guys H worked with. The guys (mostly young, single, and childless) would talk about their adventures, and my H ended up feeling like he was missing out. So me and the children were villianized as the THINGS keeping him from THAT life, that big fun one everyone was talking about.

So, he knows I'm a no-go on hunting. Let me back up a second to last night...he said that he never told me about hunting because he didn't have any friends here who hunted, he'd gotten rid of his equipment when he moved here (he probably should have checked out the local culture and held onto it, lol), so it was a non-issue, and besides, "It's a guy thing so I wouldn't have talked about it with you anyway." (!!! Funny, I don't remember a whole lot of times that he started conversations about shopping and manicures in order to talk about 'girl things' with me, lol. I digress...)

Anyway, so he knows I'm a no-go on it, but he's engaging in conversations about it, and even though I know it's a DJ to predict the outcome, I do have it on pretty good authority of experience that the more he talks about it, the more he will want it, and then he will vilify me as keeping him from what he wants so much to the point where I'm dehumanized in his eyes. So it seems the best thing to do would be to avoid it, like an alcoholic would avoid friends who invited them to bars. kwim? An alcoholic can have friends who drink, but they have to be aware of the problem and be supportive...not encourage the alcoholic to drink. If this guy doesn't know the damage that may be brought from encouraging my H to go hunting, he won't know how to be supportive of our marriage. I would like for my H to surround himself with people who support our marriage, and avoid those who don't. I don't think this guy is unsupportive. I just think he doesn't know.

Does that make sense?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 06:35 PM
And the blows keep coming...

Just discovered that the event this weekend (the one that trumped our anniversary get-away he promised) involves professional cheerleaders. wth? Really? Can my H find a job that does NOT involve objectifying women? Happy effing anniversary to me. I'm going to go cry now.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 06/01/11 06:44 PM
That makes sense. AT the same time, though, it’s kinda out of your hands. The singles group at my church is mostly younger never-marrieds with no kids. They just don’t understand what I go through when it comes to rearing my son, and when they (even the guys) talk about future marriage they are soooooo far off the mark but I’ve given up trying to educate them. I will admit, even though I KNOW the swinging single life isn’t all that great, rather than say so and offend everyone I will beg out on account of my son.

I think the difference is in how he feels. Does he really feel like your family is keeping him from living the life he wants to live or is he just acting that way to go with the flow. And if it’s acting and it still bothers you (NOTHING wrong with that) does he understand that it bothers you (note, I didn’t ask had you told him, but does he understand).

Now if he really feels like you all are holding him back from a big, fun, life that’s a whole separate subject! When my marriage was crumbling, I will admit I made my hours longer and longer at work because coming home was so painful. Even to the point of picking up my son and bringing him to work with me. Being at work was so easy and less stressful. I was GOOD at work. At home all I got from my H were constant reminders that I was not GOOD.

Since your H appears to crave the success and admiration he gets from work, but either can’t figure out how to get that from you or isn’t willing to put forth the effort, I don’t know what to tell you if that’s the case (ie his eyes are fixed on what he’s missing out on). You are right that he would be better to surround himself with marriage-friendly, supportive, people. But how can you motivate that change? And how will you keep CWMI happy if he doesn’t?
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 06/01/11 06:45 PM
Another thought from watching what just happened in my office: Your H may not have anyone supportive in his environment. Where I work there are two men who have what I observe is a good marriage. One guy is the boss, so no one gives him a hard time about it. But the other guy is constantly being teased about not being “the man of the house” because he won’t commit to outings with the guys without spousal approval and a lot of times skips our weekly office lunch because his wife called him at the last minute. As the only female, I think it’s awesome. But I could sooooo totally understand how a man in that kind of environment wouldn’t want to admit to choosing his wife.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
"It's a guy thing so I wouldn't have talked about it with you anyway." (!!! Funny, I don't remember a whole lot of times that he started conversations about shopping and manicures in order to talk about 'girl things' with me, lol. I digress...)


I think this is prob. normal. I like to play video games when I have free time (which is very rare). My wife can careless about video games, so I don't talk to her about video games. I might bring up that there's a new system out and that I'd like to look into buying one because of the increased graphics processor blah blah blah. But htat's only to describe why I'd like to make the purchse. I might even find a new game and go "oh man! Come look at teh graphics on this game!" I'll talk to my guy friends though about video games because it's a guy thing typically. As far as manicures and girl stuff, our convesations on that are she'd like to get a manicure or her hair cut....okay, cool. But I don't want to have a conversation about it because I don't really want to talk about 'girl' stuff. Well, aside from "I think your hair might look good like this style"

Quote:
I do have it on pretty good authority of experience that the more he talks about it, the more he will want it


I think you're on target. I learned long ago that if my wife was adverse to me doing X and Y and I knew that I wouldn't be able to but kept thinking about it and talkinga bout it, I'd only be disappointed later. It's much easier to say, "Sorry...I won't be able to." and then it's done with.

Quote:
I would like for my H to surround himself with people who support our marriage, and avoid those who don't. I don't think this guy is unsupportive. I just think he doesn't know.

Does that make sense?


I agree. When you have goals, it's important to surround yourself with people that share like goals or will at least support those goals.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 06:55 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
And the blows keep coming...

Just discovered that the event this weekend (the one that trumped our anniversary get-away he promised) involves professional cheerleaders. wth? Really? Can my H find a job that does NOT involve objectifying women? Happy effing anniversary to me. I'm going to go cry now.


I'm completely sorry about the anniversary issue. That really sucks. I hope your day gets better. Feeling terrible is a horrible feeling.

I do fail to see how being a cheerleader objectifies women.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 06:58 PM
Daisy, that sucks for that guy. Far more people are married than not married where I work. And those that aren't married completely understand about getting spousal approval before committing to anything. And then they understand that plans may change as family stuff comes up.

Everyone knows if I get asked to do something away from work the first thing I'll say is, "lemme get back to you after I check with my wife to see if that's cool with her."
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:06 PM
The vodka models wore more clothing. :p

Remember the whole conversation about how this place doesn't use women at events, and would never ever do such a thing? And spouses are encouraged and welcomed at events? Before I knew about the cheerleaders, I asked H if he planned to extend an invitation to our family for this. It actually involves children.

Yes, cheerleaders at a child's event. Anyhoo...

He said, "Come if you want to, I don't care!"

Nice, eh? DS14 goes to school with a girl whose father works there, and I know she attended last year and told my son how much fun the kids of employees have at this event. So why he hadn't invited us was a mystery to me...until I found out about the cheerleaders. Now it makes sense. He knows I wouldn't like it. It's not a sporting event where cheerleaders are appropriate.

Cheerleaders on a football field = appropriate use of cheerleaders.

Cheerleaders on a car lot = objectifying women.

If there is no team to win, there is no need for cheerleaders, imho. You don't need models to give away free vodka, either, now that I think on it. smile
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Daisy, that sucks for that guy. Far more people are married than not married where I work. And those that aren't married completely understand about getting spousal approval before committing to anything. And then they understand that plans may change as family stuff comes up.

Everyone knows if I get asked to do something away from work the first thing I'll say is, "lemme get back to you after I check with my wife to see if that's cool with her."


Why are you even here, kt? You two sound like you have such an awesome marriage (GNO on drunkbuses excluded). What brought you here? Do I need to look up your first posts? smile
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
Another thought from watching what just happened in my office: Your H may not have anyone supportive in his environment. Where I work there are two men who have what I observe is a good marriage. One guy is the boss, so no one gives him a hard time about it. But the other guy is constantly being teased about not being “the man of the house” because he won’t commit to outings with the guys without spousal approval and a lot of times skips our weekly office lunch because his wife called him at the last minute. As the only female, I think it’s awesome. But I could sooooo totally understand how a man in that kind of environment wouldn’t want to admit to choosing his wife.


That is a respect issue, that the boss gets no crap but subordinate does. Do you respect the sub? Do you see how the other guys don't? Do you think kow-towing earns respect? I don't.

I don't know how to answer your other questions from your previous post. I've seen him develop interests based on what other people are interested in, and he even claimed an ethnic heritage I had no clue about and am still unsure of, since nobody else in his family claims this heritage and it's a questionable situation involving a crime that was never reported...anyway, that was nuts and he was angry at me for asking for clarification on what he was saying, since I *thought* at that point I knew his family history, but all of a sudden he was Hispanic because the person we were with was Hispanic. Um, wha??? My head spins. He YELLED at me, "My mother's father was Hispanic!" and I responded, Your mother's maiden name is IRISH. So he told all of us that his grandmother was raped by a Mexican. Was news to me, would have liked to get that in private. I think he would have liked it that way, too. He does tan very well, unlike me, who is Irish and has no raped grandmothers.

Anyway...as far as what he really wants? I kinda think he does want to be unencumbered and free to do as he pleases, at his whim. We are messy, and he is OCD. We interfere with his life. If he was married to a golddigger, he'd be a perfect husband. He told a therapist before MB that he thought his contribution to the family was money, and that's it. What should be EXPECTED as his contribution, that is.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:37 PM
Ahhhh...very enlightening reading KT's first posts...

laugh
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:38 PM
I had horrible IB going on—throwing twice a week, indoor and outdoor soccer during times that took away from family, martial arts 4-6 hours a week, I barely knew my kids names, I had inappropriate flirty conversations with other women on occasion, never helped around the house (well rarely and that was begrudgingly…I thought mowing the lawn on Saturday was good enough), I would agree to do things I knew my wife wouldn’t like and then lie about it, I had a drinking problem, etc. Basically I was just a huge jerk, a terrible husband, and really not a good dad. And my wife was the queen of AOs and DJs.

My wife and I decided we were going to split up. When I told my son that Dad and Mom were going to be living separately, it tore him up. I mean he broke down fiercely. I had already been divorced (and so had she) and my two daughters from my previous marriage were still (years later) upset that their parents weren’t together. I decided right then that I didn’t want to do any more damage to my kids. So I said, “no we’re not going to get a divorce, we’re going to make this work.” She was hesitant but agreed for the sake of the kids. I can’t remember if our 4 year old had been born yet or she was pregnant with our 4 year old or not at this point. I had no marriage skills. I asked what she needed from me as a husband and we went from there. And it was really rocky but I started doing the things she asked from me. Granted I screwed up a lot but things were getting better. I started googling stuff. I came across The 5 Love Languages first. I took the book to her and said something like, “hey…I want to have an awesome marriage. Can we take this test and try and meet these needs the book talks about?” She agreed and we went from there. Then I found Marriage Builders and we started with the ENs questionnaire. Then we started reading the Love Busters book together as UA time.

Granted we’re not MB poster children. I don’t think Dr. Harley would approve of me playing on a co-ed soccer team. And I don’t think he’d approve of my wife going on the bus with drinking. Occasionally (rarely)we sacrifice and do activities that we really don’t want to do (like me agreeing to going camping). We get in 10-20 hours of UA time together, we meet each others ENs (on a consistent basis anyway…we might have a down week here and there), and we rarely LB each other.

That’s it in a nutshell.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:47 PM
Thanks, kt.

Do you think your wife's AOs and DJs were directly related to your IB?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:54 PM
I'd say that my IB sure didn't help. I'm sure she didn't feel very loved. It wasn't until fairly recently that I got her into a psychitarist and it was discovered that she has bipolar with an anxiety disorder. Medication has helped tremendously.

The other thing is she grew up with a mom that was all about AOs and DJs. The husband was simply a paycheck and if he did something the mom didn't like, it wouldn't be uncommon for verbal or physical abuse to occur. And husbands were disposable.

The husband worked and the mom sat around drinking and doing drugs all day and night. The birth dad would (when they lived with him) allow for the daughters to have boys spend the night, buy them cigarettes, and supply them with drugs and alcohol. There were times they got pawned off on the grandparents.

One of my biggest changes I made on my self was to really make an effort to meet her need for FC and DS. It's made a world of difference.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 07:55 PM
kt, to this post: do you think your wife could have known you for years without knowing you had an interest in video games at all?

Because that's what I'm talking about. Not just not having conversations about it, but being completely unaware that it was an interest, after several years of marriage and ALL the children were born.

To me, being completely unaware is different from not discussing every new development in the hobby.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Duped - 06/01/11 08:01 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
kt, to this post: do you think your wife could have known you for years without knowing you had an interest in video games at all?


No. I've always owned a gaming system. I don't play very often--like I might get on there for a couple hours a month if that. But she does know I like to play video games on occassion.

Now with throwing, I had always had an interest in it but had no idea where to even start with it. So I never really said anything about it until I met (whose now my best friend and throwing coach) my buddy J. When I started, we didn't POJA it, I think I said sojmething like "Hey! I met a guy that throws in the Highland Games, I want to start practicing wtih him so I can compete." She said okay. I think she thought it was kinda weird at first.

But J's family would come out to the park with him when he threw so I kinda threw at her, "hey, bring the kids to the park when we throw, his wife and kids come." She liked this. And then she started going to the Games with me and she realized that most of the guys that throw are married andd have kids and they all travel together. So she really likes it now as it's a family environment. And a lot of the times the wives and kids will all go do somethign together while the husbands are competing.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 08:20 PM
Ha! My husband has the answer to our problems. For me to GET A JOB. That's so nice, that he's willing to pay $1800 a month for childcare and take days off work if the children are ill and can't go. Oh wait, he means for ME to do that! hahahaha...

He can pay ME $1800 a month in child support. Azz.

How can I encourage him to not be so reactionary with anger? I know I'm way more sarcastic here while venting than I am in my dealings with my H. I don't know how to convince you all of that, but i am much more measured and reserved when talking with H, and I do take into account his need for admiration. But yeah, I'll use it against him. "Thank you for your support in my pursuance of a career. I'm so happy to know I can depend on you to be there for the kids when I can't." I'm actually serious in the sentiment, but majorly doubtful about his commitment.

I told him earlier that I was having a tough time dealing with him canceling our anniversary weekend away. He DENIED having done so. Really? There's a touch with reality that's missing, imho.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Duped - 06/01/11 08:27 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I know I'm way more sarcastic here while venting than I am in my dealings with my H. I don't know how to convince you all of that, but i am much more measured and reserved when talking with H

If you can't talk respectfully about him, then I doubt very seriously you are talking respectfully to him.

You may think you are being "reserved," but more than likely your true feelings are shining through.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Originally Posted By: CWMI
kt, to this post: do you think your wife could have known you for years without knowing you had an interest in video games at all?


No. I've always owned a gaming system. I don't play very often--like I might get on there for a couple hours a month if that. But she does know I like to play video games on occassion.

Now with throwing, I had always had an interest in it but had no idea where to even start with it. So I never really said anything about it until I met (whose now my best friend and throwing coach) my buddy J. When I started, we didn't POJA it, I think I said sojmething like "Hey! I met a guy that throws in the Highland Games, I want to start practicing wtih him so I can compete." She said okay. I think she thought it was kinda weird at first.

But J's family would come out to the park with him when he threw so I kinda threw at her, "hey, bring the kids to the park when we throw, his wife and kids come." She liked this. And then she started going to the Games with me and she realized that most of the guys that throw are married andd have kids and they all travel together. So she really likes it now as it's a family environment. And a lot of the times the wives and kids will all go do somethign together while the husbands are competing.


I love this. The first overnight business trip H took, I wanted to go. He said that people don't take spouses on these things. I knew better, having been married before to a business traveler. So I said, "Go. See." Sure enough, every married person had brought their spouse. He promised to take me on the next one, that he hadn't known. (ummm...I told him, but I get NO RESPECT as a knowledgeable person apparently)

But no, next one not only did he not arrange to take me, but lied to me in order to get an extra day there. I found out beforehand. I had three days of HELL, followed by YEARS of hell after finding out that a woman he worked with was there, also.

I can't go back and find out what happened. He passed a polygraph after that. But I think he believes his own BS. So of course he would pass. I just don't know. I love every part of my life right now except for who I am married to.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Duped - 06/01/11 08:50 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
kt, to this post: do you think your wife could have known you for years without knowing you had an interest in video games at all?

Because that's what I'm talking about. Not just not having conversations about it, but being completely unaware that it was an interest, after several years of marriage and ALL the children were born.


CWMI, the more I read about your husband, the more I agree with whoever suggested Asperger's awhile back. One key of AS is "special interests" that for a time period become all consuming. For some, it’s a lifetime love. For others, it develops when around others who highlight that interest. I know you’ve tossed out NPD as well. Neither of those mean he can't adjust his behavior to be less hurtful, however...it just makes it harder to find a way to motivate him to do so.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 09:03 PM
I think I fit Asperger's much more than my H does. I am much more likely to blurt out inappropriate comments than he is, and more likely to misread social cues...because I'm an introvert. I don't notice and/or don't care about reactions I get. I don't temper my response to anything based on expected reaction. I say what I mean, mean what I say.

H tempers and solicits certain responses. At least with those not close to him.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Duped - 06/01/11 09:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I know I'm way more sarcastic here while venting than I am in my dealings with my H. I don't know how to convince you all of that, but i am much more measured and reserved when talking with H

If you can't talk respectfully about