My wife and I don't communicate well. My upbringing was great, hers was very disfunctional. Her Dad left her Mom because she is quite disturbing and probably needs meds. We've been married 8 years and have 3 kids, she is a good mom and I'm a great dad. When it comes to any "issues" she refuses to deal with them which she clearly learned growing up. I prefer to discuss them and try to make them better. I used the title "hopeless" because I truly am out of hope that anything will ever change. I don't feel loved, I feel no intimacy, she just now explained she is irritated with me most of the time but can't tell me why. I came out in 2011 with the attitude that I don't care if she doesn't want to try, that I will rise above and do things to make it better. I get no return on this investment however and I've given up. I need some serious brainstorming with all of you. I need to read and learn, read and learn. I'm in love with my family but very unhappy in my relationship with my wife and feel a huge empty hole.
Hi Hilltopper, welcome to Marriage Builders. Many of us have transformed our marriages into romantic, happy marriages by using this program. It sounds like communication is not the main problem, but that you have both fallen out of love. If you can fall in love again, the communication problem will be much easier to resolve.
Start here:
How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage
And then pick up this book:
Fall in Love, Stay in Love That is where I would start. If you find you can't do this without professional help, the Harleys have a counseling center that many of us have used with great results [they can do in 2-3 sessions what other counselors can never do - they are completely different from traditional marriage counselor] or the online program. In the latter, they send you all the materials, assign you a marriage coach who oversees your weekly progress and guides your lesson plans.
The fastest, most effective way to fall in love again is to schedule 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs of affection, recreational companionship, conversation and sexual fulfillment. Here is an article about it:
Policy of Undivided Attention Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other
So after thirteen days into 2011 you throw in the towel?
Follow melodylane's it will work but you can't guit after thirteen days.
So after thirteen days into 2011 you throw in the towel?
Follow melodylane's it will work but you can't guit after thirteen days.
That's what people do with the rest of their resolutions, lol.
It takes 21 days to form (or break) a habit, so you've got to get back to work! For something as big as MARRIAGE, I'd work at it a lot longer than that.
Thanks for the notes and suggestions. I'm not giving up, just regrouping and preparing. I need more knowledge to overcome this. You see my wife simply rejects anything she doesn't want to deal with. Because her mother abused her verbally her entire life, her self-esteem is incredibly fragile. As a defense mechanism, rather than accept shortcomings, mistakes, or deal with anything which make her feel bad about herself, she either rejects it entirely or makes an excuse to get her off the hook! Had a fight this morning before I left for work. She told me she hated me which is pretty common. This is a never ending story of repetition. I shut my mouth and just deal with what has become a dead marriage, we avoid conflict, and things at least don't rise to fighting and we can coexist. If I stick up for myself or suggest we work on our marriage it is met with antagonism and ultimately leads to a fight like we had this morning. I left the house in a daze, hurt and lost, then pulled over and sent her a text suggesting she go to marriagebuilders.com right now before she gets busy. Told her there is lots of similar stories from other people and free info and courses. I said a quick prayer that God helps her to make the right decision and not reject it yet again. I haven't gotten a text back that she did this. It will likely not ever be mentioned again by her. She'll simply reject it is my guess. How far does this rejection and excuse behavior go? Oh, you wouldn't believe it. It permeates virtually anything and everything from big things to completely insignificant things. In case you are wondering, her entire family follows the same behavior. Its always someone else's fault so I don't blame her for behaving this way, but I'm desperate for it to change or at least move in the right direction. I'd love to hear some stories from some others that can relate or have dealt with anything similar because I'm way over matched right now. I simply don't know what to say or do anymore and have ZERO control over any outcomes.
Thanks for the notes and suggestions. I'm not giving up, just regrouping and preparing. I need more knowledge to overcome this.
You are absolutely right. I would get that book MelodyLane recommended as soon as possible and in the meantime try to start reading every article you can on this website. Have you read the Basic Concepts, yet?
http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=pop4
Just finished Basic Concepts, forwarded it to my wife. I also ordered 3 of the books to arrive within 3-5 days. I'm a common sense guy, most of this makes perfect sense to me. I do have concerns about both of our ability to follow instructions and fill out pages on the workbook, but I'll cross that bridge when we get there. I'm an info hound, so reading is what I'll be doing a lot of. My wife said she "scanned" the site but then had to deal with the kids. At least she is curious. I guess when she sees the books arrive she'll know I'm deadly serious about all of this.
Hilltopper1972,
maybe you can get her to agree to read one story together a day and then have a 10 minute discussion about the problems and solutions provided.
start small...........I don't know what else to offer other than if you could convince her that you are not her mother and you have no intention of treating her the way she did and that she doesn't need to just check out when things get a little difficult.
good luck, hang in there.
She said she replied to my emotional needs email. I never got it, it magically got lost. I asked her to type again which she is now. Stay tuned.
You see my wife simply rejects anything she doesn't want to deal with. Because her mother abused her verbally her entire life, her self-esteem is incredibly fragile. As a defense mechanism, rather than accept shortcomings, mistakes, or deal with anything which make her feel bad about herself, she either rejects it entirely or makes an excuse to get her off the hook!
Don't most people reject anything that makes her feel bad about themselves?? I SURE WOULD!! You are not likely to attract her to anything if you approach her like that. Who wants to be around someone who makes them FEEL BAD?
Had a fight this morning before I left for work. She told me she hated me which is pretty common. This is a never ending story of repetition.
I would stop fighting with her; it takes 2 people to fight. Additionally, I would pick up the book LOVEBUSTERS and start there instead of Fall in Love, Stay in Love. If you are fighting with your wife, you aren't going to interest her in recovering your marriage.
Also, I would stop bringing up her family since it is irrelevant to the present. If you can stop fighting with her and attract her to your marriage, she can learn to overcome her verbal abuse.
You are right about learning this program inside and out. But also consider getting some of the services here if you can't get anywhere with that. Steve Harley is often very effective in motivating a reluctant spouse to get on board.
I'm an info hound, so reading is what I'll be doing a lot of. My wife said she "scanned" the site but then had to deal with the kids. At least she is curious. I guess when she sees the books arrive she'll know I'm deadly serious about all of this.
You are on the right track!!
So I'm back again after a couple of months. I bought 3 Harley books and finished one of them. I have put forth a decent effort with implementing some of the basic concepts with some success. I don't think my wife and I have any "major" issues in terms of how we want to raise our kids, etc. I think we let the "disrespectful judgements" and "selfish demands" get us in a bad place. I've asked my wife no less than 8 times to read just the Basic Concepts and be a part of this with me. She claimed today after me pleading that she read two paragraphs. I'm not judging or trying to recruit you to my side when I say the following. My wife grew up with a Mother who always told her she wasn't good enough. Her Mom uses judgements and demands with her husband quite literally 5 times an hour. This is all my wife knows. I don't like conflict but my wife seems to think it is quite normal. Its not all her fault but the pattern usually involves her jabbing me a few to several times a day until I get fed up and "fight back". When we get to this point I have no clue how to handle it. I feel a great inequity right now in terms of feeding emotional needs. I'm not the best at it but I try and she has admitted she sees my effort. We have a third child which is her typical excuse for anything including but not limited to "her mood", "her annoyance with me", "sex", etc. The "Great Blamer" as I call her never has to take fault for anything, quite literally anything! If it doesn't make her feel good, whatever it is, she rejects it, avoids it, won't admit it, or quite literally blames someone else for it. My kids here it and I've heard them doing the same thing. My four year old stepped on a toy and hurt his foot because he wasn't paying attention and said, "Taylor put the toy there and I hurt my foot!" I quickly told him "We don't blame other people for mistakes we ourselves make son." I need some perspective from some of you with more experience that I. I'm not desperate or giving up, I'm just frustrated and need to learn more.
Melody,
By the way there a couple of things that I could be wrong about but I thought I'd tell you how I see them. Know I don't think most people or all people reject all things that make them feel bad, I sure don't. In addition whoever said that I make her feel bad? It happens at times but most of the time I have nothing to do with it. She feels bad all on her own.
In regards to her relationship with her family(mother), how is this irrelevant to the present? If this is a common cause of how she deals with her/our problems which I've read so much about, how can it possibly be something that I/We just ignore?
Don't try to educate your spouse. That is a love buster on your part. Implement the MB system yourself as an example of how spouses can treat each other more lovingly. Let your example (not your words) show her the way.
Then call the Harleys. Let them do the educating and let them motivate her to take part in the program. They are more skilled and experienced at motivating reluctant spouses than you are. And when they educate her, it isn't withdrawing units from your account in her love bank.
Melody,
By the way there a couple of things that I could be wrong about but I thought I'd tell you how I see them. Know I don't think most people or all people reject all things that make them feel bad, I sure don't. In addition whoever said that I make her feel bad? It happens at times but most of the time I have nothing to do with it. She feels bad all on her own.
I was responding to your comment that she rejects anything that makes her feel bad. That is a natural reaction and if you ARE doing something to make her feel bad, I would stop that.
In regards to her relationship with her family(mother), how is this irrelevant to the present? If this is a common cause of how she deals with her/our problems which I've read so much about, how can it possibly be something that I/We just ignore?
I am not saying to ignore her behavior, but to ignore her
childhood. It has nothing to do with the present. I view this as a distraction because it is irrelevant to the present. Sure, maybe she picked up those traits from her mother, but so what? The solution is to change present behavior.
I agree with holdingon and think you would greatly benefit from signing up for the Marriage Builders program because they will assign you a coach who will work with your wife and guide your weekly lessons. Let THEM work on her instead of you. You would also have daily access to Dr Harley. They are trained coaches how know how to get people on board and teach them new behaviors. The cost is $995 and many of us have used this program with great success.
Sorry you are here but Welcome to Marriage builders.
Your wife sounds alot like mine was when i first tried to introduce her to the concepts and ideas here. MY wife was very reluctant to engage in the material here because it was writen by a "guy". I just vowed to my self to learn what emotional needs my wife had and learned to avoid the love busters and actually listen to her complaints.
Before my wife filled out the emotional needs questionaire (you can find that on the site here and print it out) I used her complaints as the answers for her questionaire. As I learned to be a better husband by listening to her complaints without getting defensive it began to work. By filling her needs for many months without expecting anyhting in return she began to see my efforts were in her best interest .. and not just some sort of manipulation to get my needs met. After a while it would back fire and we would be back to day one again tho. My wife and I then descided to go to marriage counseling. After we seen the bill from one session .. that sparked my wifes attention to look at other options. I then showed her I had his needs her needs book and had printed off some of the concepts here for her to read but began with the POJA. My wie at the time had descided that she had spent too much time on the PC and didnt ever visit the links i sent her. IT was only after i presented the POJA in paper over breakfast that she actually put any consideration to reading it. Once she did ... coupled with the fact that if we both worked on MB together, we would not need any more MC. We did 3 more sessions of MC before realizing it did us no good, other than rehash bad emotions and leave the MC in a worse state than when we went in, and convinced my wife that MB was the route to take. It took a while to prove to her that my actions were not manipulative to get my needs met right away .. it was only after i had done the change to better myself and make me be loveable to her that she came around and began to meet my needs almost effortlessly becasue i was able to learn how to plug the holes in our love banks and fill them up.
You can do this ... and it will not be an easy fix .. but SHOW her how its improving you and step up to the plate and make your self be more desireable. EXample. I started working out and when i got home I would start on domestice duties right after dinner and take my shirt off when i did dishes .. my excuse was i didnt like to get my shirt wet. She would exclaim "nothing is sexier than a man doing dishes with his shirt off!" and smack my butt and walk away with a grin on her face.
Keep at it ... become a better man and husband and dad for YOU and your family. YOur wife will notice .. maybe not today .. or tomorrow .. but in a few weeks she will see the consistancy of your efforts and fall deeply back in love with you. Mine has.
Wow MrNiceGuy, I really needed to read this post from you. I have taken the approach of fulfilling her emotional needs and not expecting anything in return which is very tough. I see a huge inequity and it is hard to rise above it and do it anyways. I do the dishes every night, feed the kids breakfast, cook dinner for her and the kids. I folded whatever clothes were in the laundry this morning which was something I normally don't do, hope she notices. I also folded the laundry yesterday and put sheets on the bed. She's not lazy by any means, there is just a lot to do and we have a four month old baby. I will make a commitment to keep fulfilling her needs even if she won't fulfill mine and take it for what it is. I hate to get frustrated and then "strike back" because you are right it literally can take 15 love units and drop it to 0 in 5 seconds flat.
It is just so tough(now I'm just venting) because of who she is. Reject reality. Make decisions and come to conclusions based on irrational thought. Have "conditions" for our marriage that must be met or there will be trouble. I feel like I have to achieve perfection to get anywhere and that scares the daylights out of me. It is a strange place to be. By the way my wife has it out for a lot of people these days so I know it is not just me. I love her though, and want to be fulfilled. I don't like this conflict.
Great Job Hilltoper! Keep that attitude going! ... IT will be difficult for the first while as you change your old habits into new habits until it becomes effortless and a normal part of your daily routine. Having a 4month old baby is very time consuming and very hard on your wife and also your UA time. It will get better though as your child grows. ALso since it was not that long ago that you had your child .. your wife may be depressed somewhat. ALOT of women go though that right after child birth. Her body is adjusting and may take a while to fully recouperate and for her to feel "normal" again. I am not sure if your interested or not .. but you could see if your wife was interested in a natural herb supplement that balances horomones. Its very effective. Both my wife and I use it and it has made a signifigant difference in my wifes energy levels and her "attitudes" lol. ITs called Macaroot. Check it out. (
www.macaroot.com www.macasex.com
www.macatalk.com ) IT takes aprox 5 days to kick in and its very safe to use (safe for breast feeding etc). I am in no affiliation of the product .. I am just a happy customer and so is my wife! So I tell everyone about it
if you do get it .. try to get it in pill form.. its much better than the starch form and works like a charm on horomones! But dont take my word for it .. just do some research then check out your local health food store.
Remember to be consistant in your efforts ... and do not let your "taker" be in charge for a while ... even if it starts to swell up and you begin to feel like your needs are not being met and your "taker" suggests you get aggitated or argue about it. If you end up in an argument of some sorts you will be back at day one and your wife will think it was manipulation the entire time and youll be back at day one. You have to change for YOU not her.
If you have the books "His needs her needs FOR PARENTS" ...and "love busters" .. possibly set aside some time with your wife to take turns reading it out loud together sitting in bed before you go to sleep at night. My wife loved that I would read out loud to her and as she listened .. we would stop and discuss it once in while. This was great bonding time.
Again .. keep up the good work .. and come vent here.
MnG
Thanks for the words and support! I got home let my wife go on a run while made dinner and tended to all three. You know what? She doesn't notice squat! Bought her three small gifts last week, nothing. I'm feeling pretty selfish right now because the door keeps getting slammed in my face. She won't read anything, I have all threeharley books and I'm on number two now. She has every excuse in the fir everything! I'm sitting here in front of the grocery store, angry, hurt, and I don't want to go home. I'll go home and she'll just insult me again, oblivious and seemingly impervious to everything! Geez, please help me get this woman to see or change even a tad!
I forget stuff quite easily. My forgetfulness = annoying habit, I know. She wanted me to go pick up a coupon for $10 at her Dad's house on the way. I totally forgot. I guess I was so focused on making sure I got every single item on the grocery list I forgot that part! I'm quite literally terrified at stuff like this. I can't make decisions anymore because she'll criticize it. So she called me on it of course, wasn't angry on the outside, but I know her and she was "irritated" at me. I can't go a day without messing up so I don't know what to do. Her annoying habits annoy me sure, but I don't hold it against her. That is just who she is. She loses everything, hoards stuff in the garage to the point where we can't park our cars in there. She threatens the kids with the ole "Do you want us not to go to the party?", even though they know she never means it. I guess I just don't get this whole game because that is just not me. Anyone else not really get to upset about annoying habits or things?
Should I be terrified to do things like shop for groceries for fear of making mistakes?
I forget stuff quite easily. My forgetfulness = annoying habit, I know. She wanted me to go pick up a coupon for $10 at her Dad's house on the way. I totally forgot. I guess I was so focused on making sure I got every single item on the grocery list I forgot that part! I'm quite literally terrified at stuff like this.
Hilltopper, as you can see, this approach is not creating love in your marriage. It is creating RESENTMENT on your part which will further erode the love in your marriage. The problem is not that you don't do enough housework, but that your wife is a freeloader in marriage and has no motivation to change. If you keep up this one sided giving for long, you will grow to hate her. I would try a new approach of radical honesty and tell her how unhappy you are. She is abusive and thoughtless and is destroying your marriage. She is killing your feeligs for her. Does she know that?
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.
Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.
Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
Should I be terrified to do things like shop for groceries for fear of making mistakes?
Have you asked her this? Hilltopper, I know a lot of men who get lost in the produce aisle of a grocery store because they
never do the shopping. I think that fact that you do is great! So you forget the bread? You can pick it up tomorrow! You forgot the milk? The kids won't die overnight from calcium deficiency! This is really not a big thing in the grand scheme. But it IS a sign that there is a bigger issue than forgetting something.
I grabbed this from another one of your posts, because I think it may play into things:
She's not lazy by any means, there is just a lot to do and we have a four month old baby.
How much time do the two of you spend together
alone? How often do you take the kids to grandma's for the weekend, or even hire a babysitter so you can get out of the house for a few hours?
I don't think this has anything to do with her childhood, or her mother, or anything like that. I suspect your wife is tired and resents just about everything in her life right now.
Can you come up with some ways to spend some time together alone?
Warning: you need to understand that you'll probably be the only one actively working on this until she starts seeing the benefit of getting away from the kids. Also, she may be initially resistant to doing so. Work on it anyway.
Keep a todo list. For those of us that have a million things going on, we just have to keep a check list or we forget.
You can always put your foot down on the abuse. When she starts to insult you, call her on it. Tell her you won't tolerate being spoken to like a child in a disrespectful manner.
Hilltopper,
The advice you are getting is spot-on, especially kilted_thrower's short but simple message: keep a todo list, and don't accept the abuse.
You should not have to be afraid of making a mistake while grocery shopping. It is okay for your wife to be bothered if you forget something at the store; it is not okay for your wife to punish you for it! If you make a mistake, simply say "I'm sorry." Don't add any explanations. If she becomes demanding, disrespectful, sarcastic, angry, abusive, or hysterical, just back off and remove yourself from the situation in an appropriate way.
Later, tell her that these behaviors (demands, disrespect, anger) are not acceptable to you and are a severe problem, and that you expect her to do something about it. I agree with MelodyLane's recommendation of radical honesty: you need to let your wife know that this is an extreme problem.
Do not succomb to the temptation to become demanding, disrespectful, or have an angry outburst, yourself. It is very hard when you are being abused not to become an abuser yourself. But if you engage in any of these behaviors, it will affect her emotions in such a way that it will become LESS likely that she will ever be motivated to change. You have got to learn how to NEVER react with one of these behaviors, no matter what she does.
Don't harp constantly on the behavior, but let her know periodically (maybe once a week or so), that the disrespect or angry outbursts or demands are still a problem for you.
Buy the Love Busters book and memorize it! You need to become a world-class expert in identifying Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts from yourself and from your wife. You can practice here by reading other threads.
Also, start practicing refraining from disrespectful judgments yourself when you post here. If you will strive to keep your writing free of disrespectful judgments, it will help change your thinking.
I commend you as a husband for doing the grocery shopping. A lot of men would respond to abuse for making grocery mistakes by saying "I have a simple solution. I'll just not do the shopping any more."
Any chance of starting to make some time together? Most women respond well when a husband puts forth the effort to plan an event together, make auxiliary arrangements like childcare so she doesn't have to, etc. The Undivided Attention time component of this program is nonnegotiable; couples that do well together, whether they do this program or not, are couples that spend at least fifteen hours a week alone together giving each other their undivided attention.
And hilltopper ... it's good to see you back!
She's not lazy by any means, there is just a lot to do and we have a four month old baby.
I know the feeling. We have a four month old baby, and five other children going up to age 6!
This is definitely a lot of work for my wife just to survive each day, and she rightly wants to have an escape once in awhile.
Dr. Harley says the key is for us to escape TOGETHER. (I need to escape, too.) If we make our escapes TOGETHER, and we spend 15 hours a week escaping together and giving each other our undivided attention, we will fall in LOVE.
Thanks for the words and support! I got home let my wife go on a run while made dinner and tended to all three. You know what? She doesn't notice squat! Bought her three small gifts last week, nothing. I'm feeling pretty selfish right now because the door keeps getting slammed in my face. She won't read anything, I have all threeharley books and I'm on number two now. She has every excuse in the fir everything! I'm sitting here in front of the grocery store, angry, hurt, and I don't want to go home. I'll go home and she'll just insult me again, oblivious and seemingly impervious to everything! Geez, please help me get this woman to see or change even a tad!
A couple of things to keep in mind:
If your wife's Love Bank is in the red (negative), then each deposit you make makes it "less red" but until it gets "into the black" , that is, above zero, you won't see the effects. So since it is below zero your wife will be in the state of Conflict and will be all snippy w/ you.
Make sure the things you are doing are ones that are important to your wife.
**edit**
Melody,
Thanks for the advice. I've wondered how it got to this point. I'm a strong person and yet I've become afraid and timid within this relationship somehow. I let her get to me and she probably instinctively knows I don't like conflict which works to her advantage. What I do need some advice on is how to become stronger without making the situation worse. In other words, I can't follow the Love Bank system if I discontinue trying to meet her emotional needs can I?
One more thing to be very clear. My wife is not lazy at all, in fact she is tireless and does a ton around the house. She gets easily overwhelmed by little things that don't bother me whatsoever. She also tends to "create" work and projects that simply are not necessary which stress her out.
So I feel like I need to toughen up my skin. Let her see that her little insults and slams don't bother me at all? I guess I'm wondering what you are suggesting I try? I know this is a process.
I think for now her own personal time is so hard to come by with the new baby that she values that more than anything. I suggest date nights but she turns them down as excuses. We got massage oils the other day and that night we each gave each other a massage, but since then she has turned down that offer each time as well. I wasn't asking to be intimate, just the massage to let her relax. The lack of intimacy and "date nights" has been a steady decline over the past 3-4 years I'd say. We don't even kiss even when she is in the mood. She keeps saying it is because she is not confident in herself, but it is hard for me to truly know that it isn't just another one of her excuses, you know?
I brought a grocery list, the coupon thing was just an oversight. Believe me I have numerous tools in my life to stay organized and remember things. As far as not accepting the abuse, what does that mean? If I say, "I won't let you speak to me that way", then what? In other words, what good will it do? She doesn't try and tear me down, it is the little disrespectful judgements and selfish demands all day that build up. She is crafty at using them so that they don't really sound like an insult with purpose, but yet we both know they are. Whenever I do call her on it she 100% of the time says, "You are just taking things the wrong way." She says it so much I start to wonder if I am until I reply it in my head and know for sure that they are insults. Are the insults meant to hurt me or rather to make herself feel better?
I let her get to me and she probably instinctively knows I don't like conflict which works to her advantage.
And paradoxically, she will not respect you for letting her do this.
I used to do that with my H. Make little snippy comments here, a couple of snide remarks there - I straightened my butt up when he looked me squarely in the eyes one day and said "I don't deserve to be spoken to like that." HUH?
I respected that.
And yes, I did apologize.
Melody,
Thanks for the advice. I've wondered how it got to this point. I'm a strong person and yet I've become afraid and timid within this relationship somehow.
That's a common response to abusive behavior like Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts.
I let her get to me and she probably instinctively knows I don't like conflict which works to her advantage. What I do need some advice on is how to become stronger without making the situation worse.
Hilltopper, you can learn to quit avoiding conflict when you have some better tools to handle it. Like maritalbliss says, this will result in more respect from your wife.
Conflict alone is not bad in marriage. It's not a problem merely to have different opinions about what fork in the road you should take. It is a problem to take one choice without regard for your spouse's feelings. And it is a problem to use Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, or Angry Outbursts if your spouse doesn't want to go the way you want to go.
But there is a better path of negotiation you can take for every conflict when the two of you pledge to be free of these love busting behaviors.
In other words, I can't follow the Love Bank system if I discontinue trying to meet her emotional needs can I?
Whoa, I hope nobody is suggesting that! You need to continue to try to meet your wife's emotional needs. In fact, you will likely need to learn to do a better job of it. Meeting emotional needs is a complex skill like playing the piano that you can (and should) get better and better at as the years go by.
One more thing to be very clear. My wife is not lazy at all, in fact she is tireless and does a ton around the house.
You made that clear in an earlier message.
She gets easily overwhelmed by little things that don't bother me whatsoever. She also tends to "create" work and projects that simply are not necessary which stress her out.
Okay, men and women are different. In fact, all people are different.
It is okay for her to be bothered by things that do not bother you. If you are not okay with this, you are disrespectfully judging her feelings. You see from the Love Bank model what that will do. It's an important part of this program to learn not to disrespectfully judge her.
Also, you are definitely judging her feelings when you say that the things she is doing are "simply not necessary." She feels that they are necessary; otherwise she would not do them. Knock it off, Hilltopper! If it bothers you for her to do something, tell her so, but don't tell her she is doing things that are not necessary. That is only YOUR opinion that they are not necessary, and her opinion that they are necessary is just as valid as yours!
Let her see that her little insults and slams don't bother me at all?
No, that's ridiculous. They do hurt you, and you need to be honest with her about that. This is what we mean by not tolerating abuse.
I guess I'm wondering what you are suggesting I try? I know this is a process.
Okay, I outlined the suggestion up there for you; do you need more detail? I said nothing like "show her it doesn't hurt you." I said you need to be Radically Honest with your wife and tell her that these behaviors (demands, disrespect, anger) are not acceptable to you and are a severe problem, and that you expect her to do something about it. I agree with MelodyLane's recommendation of radical honesty: you need to let your wife know that this is an extreme problem.
Here is my suggestion for what you should do, from above:
Later, tell her that these behaviors (demands, disrespect, anger) are not acceptable to you and are a severe problem, and that you expect her to do something about it. I agree with MelodyLane's recommendation of radical honesty: you need to let your wife know that this is an extreme problem.
Do not succomb to the temptation to become demanding, disrespectful, or have an angry outburst, yourself. It is very hard when you are being abused not to become an abuser yourself. But if you engage in any of these behaviors, it will affect her emotions in such a way that it will become LESS likely that she will ever be motivated to change. You have got to learn how to NEVER react with one of these behaviors, no matter what she does.
Don't harp constantly on the behavior, but let her know periodically (maybe once a week or so), that the disrespect or angry outbursts or demands are still a problem for you.
Buy the Love Busters book and memorize it! You need to become a world-class expert in identifying Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts from yourself and from your wife. You can practice here by reading other threads. smile
Also, start practicing refraining from disrespectful judgments yourself when you post here. If you will strive to keep your writing free of disrespectful judgments, it will help change your thinking.
I think for now her own personal time is so hard to come by with the new baby that she values that more than anything.
That is really common in new mothers. She may need to learn how important a good marriage is for her child's welfare.
I suggest date nights but she turns them down as excuses. ... She keeps saying it is because she is not confident in herself, but it is hard for me to truly know that it isn't just another one of her excuses, you know?
Okay, quit disrespecting her choice to decline your offers as "excuses." You can't read her mind and you shouldn't try to, and she has the right to decline any offer she doesn't like, for any reason.
You'll have to find an offer that she DOES like.
She might like to follow this program, if she found out what was in it for her. So think about what IS in it for her.
I brought a grocery list, the coupon thing was just an oversight. Believe me I have numerous tools in my life to stay organized and remember things. As far as not accepting the abuse, what does that mean? If I say, "I won't let you speak to me that way", then what? In other words, what good will it do?
Well, you have to become willing to back it up.
For starters, when the conversation turns ugly like this, STOP! Try to gently change the subject to something else. If that doesn't work, end the conversation. Go to another room if you have to.
Tell her at calm times what she is doing that offends you. Be honest that you do not like the way she is talking to you. Tell her you need her to stop and you know of a program that can help (Marriage Builders) and tell her what is in this program for her.
She doesn't try and tear me down, it is the little disrespectful judgements and selfish demands all day that build up.
Yes, those hurt terribly. The tiny little drains on your lovebank (or hers!) add up over time. It's the habits that are devastating, more than the one-time events.
She is crafty at using them so that they don't really sound like an insult with purpose, but yet we both know they are.
Whoa! No you don't! You can't read her mind, and proclaiming that you can is a disrespectful judgment. Do not disrespectfully judge her motivations. Do not get into a discussion with her about what she MEANT; that's fighting DJ with DJ. Instead, just tell her that it offends you.
That SHOULD be enough for her, if she truly cares about you. There should not be a need for a long drawn out fight over whether or not you have the right to be offended.
It goes both ways, too. She doesn't need a reason to feel a certain way; it needs to be enough for you, her husband, that she DOES feel that way.
Whenever I do call her on it
This route is almost sure to lead to an argument.
A better approach is to tell her once, at a calm time, being radically honest, how you feel: you are hopeless and out of energy and the reason you feel this way is her disrespectful judgments, and you need them to stop.
Then, start practicing the behavior I am describing above in not tolerating DJs and not responding in the same way yourself. Tell her periodically if it is still a problem and ask her to look for help to do something about it. Tell her you know of this program.
she 100% of the time says, "You are just taking things the wrong way." She says it so much I start to wonder if I am until I reply it in my head and know for sure that they are insults.
That's crazy for you and her to have to deal with, and can only lead to a fight.
Are the insults meant to hurt me or rather to make herself feel better?
Who knows? Who cares? It doesn't matter? Don't waste time trying to judge your wife's motivations (and offend her in the process).
If one of you feels offended by something the other says, no matter what the reason, then the other should stop saying it. See if you and she can come to agree with this.
I guess when she sees the books arrive she'll know I'm deadly serious about all of this.
Hilltopper, are you serious? Are you trying to just show her by buying books and leaving them around, or have you been radically honest and told her how unhappy you are?
I'm over my head, she is all over the board. She likes me to take the initiative to do projects around the house. I tell her I'm heading to home depot for a stake for a tree that fell down. Now she tells she doesn't want me to go. WTF? It is almost surreal and other worldly how bad we communicate, I'm clueless.
Here is what I told her tonight. I know it ain't perfect but its a start. I'm sure you'll all point out a DJ or two!
I actually feel empowered and sad at the same time:
The reason I don't speak to you or want to hang out with you is because you treat me bad. You judge me, disrespect me, blame me, make me feel bad. On top of that your mood swings are all over the map so I never know where I stand which is hard to deal with. You think everything is disgusting and say so frequently which is not pleasant to be around. You have issues with me and a lot of your friends and say so frequently which is scary to be around. You are irritated with me most of the time which makes me feel bad. I won't judge you or try to get in your head anymore on what your motivations are any longer for doing any of these things. All I know is that my feelings are real and after literally dozens of attempts in every possible way I know how to get through to you, I'm giving up. I DO love you very, very much but I refuse to subject myself to your abuse from here on out.
Let me know what you think!
My wife's reply. Let me/her have it.
First of all I don't treat you bad. It's a mechanism of irritation with you. I don't like being a nag. And of course like today you always have to be right. Its not my fault u like to close up and not speak. Do what u gotta do. I already knew the story today, women always have instincts. Oh and the sex thing, it's like the chris thing. Im so irritated and tired i have zero sexual feelings. We don't ever do anything fun anymore, forget the romance. And yes I'm tired. Do u know what it's like taking care of three kids, one being an infant, taking them to school, classes, playdates, poop, screaming half the day, gas, etc. I'm not saying it's like this everyday but I'm allowed to get emotional. I'm a woman, not a man. I'm drained. Forgive me for being a grump when I never have any alone time except for myself except the bathroom and shower there is always a kid there. Forgive me for telling u my feelings about friends, I'm allowed my opinion. I will be less grumpy and work on our marriage, but the older out baby gets I'm sure the better it will get. What ever happened to walks to Starbucks, cooking together, anything for that matter.
She has a few points, but most of it in my mind says, "Not my fault, I'm allowed to treat you this way." How do I respond to someone that says she doesn't treat me bad? By the way, did I mention anything about sex?
Here is what I told her tonight. I know it ain't perfect but its a start. I'm sure you'll all point out a DJ or two!
I actually feel empowered and sad at the same time:
The reason I don't speak to you or want to hang out with you is because you treat me bad. You judge me, disrespect me, blame me, make me feel bad. On top of that your mood swings are all over the map so I never know where I stand which is hard to deal with. You think everything is disgusting and say so frequently which is not pleasant to be around. You have issues with me and a lot of your friends and say so frequently which is scary to be around. You are irritated with me most of the time which makes me feel bad. I won't judge you or try to get in your head anymore on what your motivations are any longer for doing any of these things. All I know is that my feelings are real and after literally dozens of attempts in every possible way I know how to get through to you, I'm giving up. I DO love you very, very much but I refuse to subject myself to your abuse from here on out.
Let me know what you think!
I think this is the result of two people who don't communicate and have become resentful of each other to the point where they can't hold a conversation about anything other than mundane things without resorting to angry outburst and disrespectful judgments.
And I know you're already aware of that. I'm sorry it's gotten to this for you. I can't say that I totally blame you for your frustration, though. Your Giver is has been working hard. Your Taker feels it's his turn at bat.
And then what happened?
All true. I don't think I know what to say or how to say it then. I'm trying to not judge while being radically honest. I guess I need a lot more training on how else to say it. Here is my reply, and yes we are resorting to email tonight because I don't believe face to face conversations right now would make us communicate any better.
Reply:
This does not acknowledge any responsibility for anything at all, in fact it returns the blame on me, the kids, being a woman, Alex, being tired, and us not doing anything together. I'm not judging you I'm just reading your own words below. I admit that you telling me about your friends shouldn't be an issue, that was wrong of me, its just been a bit more frequent of late and I guess I pointed it out in error, so I apologize. Every other point however you accept no responsibility and because of this any hope of progress or change will cease to exist. Progress is simply not possible without acceptance. So either you are ok with how things are, or you are not ok with how things are, will accept that you make me feel the way you do and attempt to change the patterns. I took to heart your emotional needs email and read it frequently. I accept that I do not feed many of these emotional needs and as a learning process I'm trying to address that. It is a long, long process, but I know that you've seen some glimpses and there is more where that came from with some small successes and feedback from you. I'm not perfect honey, but I'm attempting to feed your emotional needs as best I can, but the opposite is not true.
Markos,
It started getting testy, so I went upstairs. I guess I'll keep trying this. She appears to be indifferent to any of though, always has been. Not judging her, but I'll be honest, with her mother growing up, your skin better be tough. Mine is weak and I'm going to attempt to learn and communicate here to change that.
In case any of you are wondering the big D word is not an option in either one of our books. At least not till they are all grown up. We have decided we have committed to raising first and foremost our beautiful children. My wife and I regularly congratulate ourselves on how our six and four year old have become fantastic kids. Call us old fashion at least in that sense, but believe me we both want this to work, I just think we are at a loss of how to do just that.
My wife can't tell me to turn the heat down without an attitude. Its not how I take it, its just plain rude. I told her it is because our six year old complained this morning about being too cold last night, she said, "Well I'll ask her tomorrow". Does she not trust me that our daughter said she was cold? My wife for the first time also had panic attacks around the last trimester of pregnancy which has somewhat continued. We have to sleep with the door open and she is sensitive to too much heat or confined spaces. I'm not saying that is any kind of issue with us, doesn't bother me at all really, but has anyone else dealt with any kind of similar issues that might relate to what we are also going through? Postpartum? Most of this has come to a fever's pitch sense the last trimester of pregnancy. Prior to that we still fought but we still dealt with things better than today. Today we quite literally can't speak.
This morning my wife asked me if I was having a bad day as if the conversations and emails we exchanged last night didn't even exist. I said calmly that until you start accepting some responsibility about our marriage, I don't think we'll be talking much. I know that wasn't quite the best way to go about it, but I felt that I needed to be honest with her which I was. This whole Radical Honesty vs SD's and DJ's is a fine line for me. Any insight would be amazing.
Hilltopper, both of your Takers are out and swinging. It's almost like watching a boxing match - feint, swing, retreat to the ropes, charge, swing.
Both of you have agreed that the kids come first. You've got to change that. This business of agreeing that you won't divorce until the kids are grown is completely selfish on both of your parts and shouldn't even considered. Saying divorce is not an option...until the kids are raised? This is faulty thinking. So, you think the kids will be hunky-dory with the two of you divorcing when they're 19 or 20 years old? Where did you get that idea? Your kids want their parents to be in love and happy with each other, not getting a divorce the second they're out of the house.
Have you tried doing the EN's questionnaire with your wife? The two of you are going to have to put your weapons down and meet in the middle to really heal this rift between you. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, or she's in the wrong, none of that. I'm saying it's time to start a real conversation, and I'd start with the EN's questionnaire to determine what both of your most important needs are.
We had a "breakthrough" this morning! Yeah! She accepted responsibility as did I for the state of our marriage. I guess the honesty thing works! She promised that if I could watch the kids that she'd go upstairs and read Dr Harley's book. Here was my note to her and I'm so very excited to begin the journey together. I know it will be rough and we'll make mistakes along the way but I'm prepared for that. Thanks so much to all of you for the wonderful advice, it helped me tremendously and I plan to visit this forum frequently to continue receiving help and then hopefully eventually helping others.
My note early this morning to her:
Thank you for this, it is so important in my mind that we BOTH accept responsibility for the state of our marriage. By no means does fault lie with one person or the other. I have accepted that I don't meet your emotional needs and have neglected them for a long, long time. As I began to research it and do some soul searching I eventually stumbled on MarriageBuilders.com. This was not the first website I came across, I've looked at a ton. It is however the biggest and the best and after reading quite literally dozens of stories of people that were in the place we were but now have marital bliss I became a believer. Most marriage counselors, especially the free kind, don't work. It does no good for us to sit in a room together with a counselor and sit there and debate back and forth trying to get the counselors to take our side. That is exactly how it always turns out which is why there are very few successful marriage counselors period. I believe that by reading and following the principles of Dr Harley like so many others have before us, we can rebuild love back in our marriage. The Love Bank we both have right now if in the negative for each other which is why we don't feel love. When we feel that feeling of love for each other it becomes much easier and in fact exciting to be with each other.
You talked about your motivations for hurting me below. I don't think either one of us makes a conscious choice to hurt or disrespect the other. A lot of times we probably don't even realize we've done it. Many times we view hurtful things in our own eyes rather than in the eyes of our spouse. Just because I don't find some of the little things that you like don't mean they are not important to you. Just because you don't feel that you are hurting me doesn't mean that you aren't.
You refer to my wanting to always be right and being vengeful, how so? I don't want to be right or vengeful, I just want for you to love me and for me to love you. If you see being so persistent coming back to the same things over and over again it is because it means a lot to me to have a good marriage. That is my motivation, nothing else.
I will watch all the kids tonight so you can go read upstairs and I thank you for starting this first step. I don't see myself as being better than you for finding this wonderful site that I truly believe will help us by the way. I was just lucky for having stumbled upon it. If you can learn and read and take action with me this will snowball. One love deposit from me leads to one from you which leads to a whole lot of them back and forth. I know it might seem hard to believe that you could actually love me and be excited for me to come home after work, but it is true. We will have our mistakes along the way but it is worth it all. Our kids need to see a mommy and daddy that love each other, don't disrespect or undermine each other. They need to see parents that are on the same side of the fence. You can grab the book or you can read the basic concepts right on their site. Link is below. Oh, and one more thing, I DO love you very much.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html
WAY TO GO HILLTOP!
It all starts with one deposit at a time. IF what you wote above is what you told her exactly, then you are on the right path my friend. I see no blame shifting .. and no DJ's in that message. If i was your wife I would see this message as a heart felt effort to show me that we are a team and that the breakdown of the marriage to this point is a JOINT effort and will be a JOINT effort to build it back up. I bet you your wife will not get defensive over this message, as it allows room for both of you to chew on what each of you have to do to accomplish your marital goals one little step at a time. Eventually as she discovers what it is she is mising and you plug the holes in your love bank so it stops drip draining .. the love will stay and continue to grow! I still suggest that before you go to bed at night that you possibly read the book together out loud sitting in bed next to eachother .. cuddling. Do it like this .. Get the kids to bed... get lunches ready .. put the dishes away emtpy the dish washer .. etc ... shower .. let her shower solo .. offer to rub her back and once shes relaxed .. ask her if she would like to read a chapter of the book with you. Tell her you will read it and she can cuddle and listen and provide some feed back or stop and have a discussion if something comes up that needs discussion.
Your doing a great job ... you have made your point clear (radical honesty) without a DJ and now since it did not drain her account becasue of the way you presented it .. shes considering it since she has seen a bit of a change in you.
Keep up the good work! ... over the next month you will notice a signifigant improvement if you guys continue on this path( you giveing her time to read and playing with your kids for her to wind down etc) .. and use the policy of joint agreement over everything! and learn to stop lovebusting (which your getting better at) .. you'll be back in puppy love again (both my wie and are back in puppy love ourselves and sometimes she makes me late for work! haha >.< and all your history will be rewritten back to into the positive light again.
Oh did i mention? ... GREAT JOB!
Well done, Hilltopper!
One suggestion, if I may: ask her to read sections at a time and then put the kids to bed and discuss those sections together.
Thank you both. She is at the mall, we've had a lovely day thus far once I got home. I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt that she'll go up and read a section, but I'm scared that she won't. I guess I'll take it one step at a time as I sense a little bit of reluctance in her voice.
Nice guy,
Wife is upstairs in the bathtub, with a plate of grapes and cheese, and candles, WITH, no kids. I also listened to her and let her show me the kiddy clothes she bought at the mall. Not the fake listening, the real kind, undivided. I did this kind of stuff before, but quickly gave up as there was nothing in return. I now know that consistency of my actions will show her my intentions and hopefully she'll reciprocate. Very exciting times thus far, very exciting indeed!
Everything derailed. It was great, then wife disrespected me, I told her honestly how it made me feel. She went straight for the "you take things the wrong way", then gloves came off so I went upstairs. Came back down and she said I ruined the night. I asked her to just please read love busters and then turned around and walked upstairs. How can I avoid this in future?
I think you did right in calling her on her disrespectful behavior. How did you state it? I don't think you can do anything to avoid her reactions to your honesty. However, you still need to stand your ground in a respectful manner.
Not that we're supposed to educate our spouses, but you might ask her how she would feel if she were to say how she felt and you dismissed how she felt with her being too sensitive, how would she feel about that. What that does is invalidate our feelings.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html Print that out and have her read it. It'll be an introduction to love busters and might not be so overwhelming as going and reading a chapter or a book at the start for her.
I think you two need to get the kids down to bed together and fill out the LB questionaire together.
During the summer, I might have up to 5 kids to watch all day and evening together by myself. And it's the same for thousands of people out there. However, that doesn't give me a right just because I've had a stressful day to start lovebusting my wife.
Everything derailed. It was great, then wife disrespected me, I told her honestly how it made me feel. She went straight for the "you take things the wrong way", then gloves came off so I went upstairs. Came back down and she said I ruined the night. I asked her to just please read love busters and then turned around and walked upstairs. How can I avoid this in future?
I think she played you like a fiddle.
Your wife likes things just the way they are. I was afraid of this. It sounded like she was agreeing much too readily.
I think your wife knew exactly what button to push, knowing you would get upset and then she could blame YOU for ruining the evening and derailing the reading idea.
You've got to rebuild the dike, Hilltopper. Try it again - and when she starts trying to manufacture an argument, leave the room. Tell her "I don't want to spoil your opportunity to read our book by saying angry things."
Repeat as necessary.
I also think just like in a physical recovery, we get to eager and hope for too much too soon so when we have a bad day, it sends us over the edge.
When my father had knee surgery he was excited to play tennis again. He felt great. Then, the next time he played, it didn't go so well and their was some pain. He was despondant because his expectations were so high.
It won't turn around over night. Maybe keep a calendar with happy faces and sad faces....after a month, see if the number of happy faces as increased. Don't just look at the previous day, look at the overall.
In a situation similar to mine .. I had read the book "his needs her needs" myself looking for answers. I read it prior to convincing my wife to read it. WHen an attempt to create an intimate mood failed she would throw the book back at me (knowing i had read it) when I would try to explain my self while frustrated at her negative reaction, she would say ..
Well see! Now your going back to your old ways again. OBVIOUSLY *rolls her eyes* that book is not even helping you and everything your doing for me is a lie!
Then my knee jerk reaction would be to convince her that my actions and affection are not manipulation, but that attempt to convince her i was being genuine would bring out the taker in me and proved to her, in HER mind (disrespectful judgement), that I was being my regular annoying self.
I do not know how it played out for you to ruin your evening. But when you said ..
... I told her honestly how it made me feel.
Did you tell her respectively? or could the tones of your voice indicated any frustration in your emotions when you reacted to her being disrespectful?
If its the latter... then she sensed it and it triggered her instinct to shut you down. As Marital said...
I think your wife knew exactly what button to push, knowing you would get upset and then she could blame YOU for ruining the evening and derailing the reading idea.
So then as you feel frusterated you do what marital suggested again ..
..and when she starts trying to manufacture an argument, leave the room. Tell her "I don't want to spoil your opportunity to read our book by saying angry things."
But state it with tone that makes her feel like it didnt effect YOUR mood. By doing so you will diffuse her instincts to shut you down becasue she didnt get your usual response when she presses those buttons. Then again as Marital said .. (wow marital .. your full of great advice!
It may not be exact marriagebuilders ... I dunno .. maybe it is. But thats what I had to do. It took quite a few months to get it right consistantly til she was able to see that I was actually different. (but what it really is, is getting better control of your taker)
I would mention what bothered me respectfully and briefly. Then leave the room. Think for a moment to change my thought patterns. Tell myself that she just "hasnt gotten it yet" and then walk back into the room with something else on my mind and change the subject while giving her no continued emotional reaction to the situation anymore and carry on like it never happened. You really only have to say something once to a woman becasue she is already globalizing things in her mind.
Or go do something else she might need me to do and leave her to think about it.
*shrugs*
I'm afraid you are correct. The other day it occurred to me she wants things to remain the same because she is being the Taker most of the time. It feels good in an instinctive way to be the Taker despite causing pain to someone else and not feeling a loving relationship.
As far as agreeing to easily, I'm not so sure about that. I asked her this morning if she'd be open to reading some more of LoveBusters and she said, yes I will tonight. On top of that the book had about 4-5 pages "dog eared" which is a good thing. Why would she do that unless she saw some things that really got her attention? I'm still optimistic and last night was good. I made sure to listen to her more and didn't take offense when she asked for some things. It is a fine line to figure out what a selfish demand is and if it truly is my wife gaining at my expense. If it something really little like a, "Oh the baby woke up early so I couldn't make a lunch for Tay" type of a thing. Does that really harm me? I usually make it anyways and it doesn't even bother me.
The biggest concern I have is the blame game. This is something that Dr Harley doesn't address directly from what I can tell. My six year old and four year old have started doing this as well and I called them both on it today. The blame game can be from big things to little things. The biggest one was her not taking responsibility for our relationship, it was my fault in her eyes. When I put my foot down, she accepted it just fine. I stayed home to work out of the house last week and observed her most of the day. She kept saying normally she doesn't watch this much TV, but I certainly doubt that. It is odd because by no means is she lazy, but she sure blames being busy an awful lot for any number of things not getting done. Then if she feels really bad then she'll blame me for not helping. I know you hate when I bring up her parents, but I must say, her mother blames her father incessantly to the point where it is hard to watch. I guess this means that her instincts tell her it is ok to do this for anything you want. I grew up quite literally on the other end of the spectrum so I see each of one these and it bothers me very much even if it doesn't harm me. I'm working on biting my tongue more when she does this blame thing but it is so difficult particularly when it involves her blaming myself or any one of our three children for no reason.
I'm getting better at this. I've learned that I need to rise above her game whenever possible, and yes she knows how to push my buttons. Can you help me come up with something other to say to diffuse her instinctive enjoyment from manufacturing a fight? I don't want to just walk away each time as that would seem that she kind of wins anyways. I also don't want to fight back as that is what she wants. Its like a chess game except what she doesn't know is that I have all of you great people helping me make my moves!
This is good stuff and yes I've implemented some of this already. I have a hard time not wearing my frustration on my sleeve. I admit I was honest and fired back a bit before getting a hold of myself and walking upstairs. I'm sure she didn't enjoy sitting by herself downstairs the rest of the night, particularly when I told her that it would be nice then if she could spend some time reading LB, and also that I told her I was going up to read Fall In Love Stay In Love! What happened, well she ended up reading which was a good thing. She clearly knows all about the giver and the taker, the Love Bank, etc.
She is gonna have a hard time with this, much harder than I will because her Taker has really been running unchecked for a long, long time. One thing I mentioned to her this morning as something I learned was that both of us were devaluing and not accepting each others feelings. We do it differently, but they are in essence the same thing. She won't accept my feelings of being hurt by her abuse, she just goes back to the "you take everything the wrong way" play book. She learned this probably 4-5 years ago, I kind of fell for it, maybe admitted that maybe I did so she's used it ever since. I on the other hand am disrespectful about what is important to her. I was promptly hand slapped in here for referring to my wife manufacturing projects and things to do around the house, then getting stressed when she can't get them all done as fruitless or not important. I'm extremely practical, she isn't so much. The fact that she spends countless hours shopping for stuff for the house even though the garage is full seems ridiculous to me, but I'll never disrespect her again about it. It IS important to her and if I judge her about it, then I am hurting her, that is a no no. Thanks again so much for the insight about your personal situation, it helps more than you know.
The amazing thing about the blame game is once I stopped participating in it, it has gotten MUCH better. I never really complained much to begin with UNTIL my DH started mentioning things I hadn't done THEN I was ready with my list of his shortcomings.
I decided that if something really bothers me then I owe it to him to talk about it when it bothers me....not save it up and wait till he is picking on me. The other side of that is admitting when I really don't care about something and not using it as ammunition anyway.
Likewise, when he is bothered by something not being done, I don't find excuses, I just validate his feelings and go from there. This is hard because I still feel like he is blaming me but often times he is just expressing his general frustration.
Great Job Hilltopper. Its great shes dog earing some pages. THAT is good progress. Compliment her about something .. then tell her that you noticed she had read some of the book and that you appreciated it. THen ask her if there is anything she wants to discuss from what she has read already. If not do not worry about it.. then mention again that you appreciate her taking the time to read it again and that you plan on giving her the space and time so she can continue reading it. Be the best hubby ever!
Did you ask if she is interested in reading the books out loud together in bed? That is great bonding time. make some nice herbal tea .. put on the bedside lamp and fluff up your pillows and cuddle and read. Let her know that you have no sexual intentions with it and that you just wana spend time reading together so you are both on the same page! yes even in the literal sense lol.
Even tho you got a bit testy from her initial disrespect, you are learning as well and your BOTH going to make mistakes along the way. So dont beat your self up too hard or take it too hard when either one slips up. This is where your taker TRIES to help you run out of patience with each other. Since you are the one that is here .. you will need to use extra grace for her as you both learn to validate each others feelings safely without creating tension and successfully negotiate around that.
Have you read all the basic concepts? In particular "instincts and habits?" Have you read any of the articles? In particular "Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other" If not .. take some time to review them and reflect on them. Maybe print out the 2nd one i mentioned and present it to your wife and fold it up and clip it to the back of the book as an "additional resource" with a paper clip. Do you have the book "His needs Her needs for Parents" ?? If not .. I would suggest getting that one as well .. as it goes hand in hand with "Love Busters" and provides many scenerios that will resonate with you and your wife as you take time to read them. It includes how to handle the kids and incorporate them into the marriage without sacrificing your Intimate time ... or at the very least gives you a sense of direction on how to achieve more time as a couple and what that entails.
You mention your wife and compare her to her parents .. and you mention that you see some of the same traits in your kids and have called them out on it. Good job! Those will be habits that you will have to help them all break. Your wife is a product of her parents which leads me to.. children are products of their environment! so they are a direct reflection of you both. Once both you and your wife are back on the same page again, and you two stand together as a unified front ("his needs her needs for parents" tells how to do this well) the children will see the change and even tho they may be reluctant at first to the changes in you two regarding parenting, you will see a change in them as well and their behaviour patterns. Both my children would be just as tense as my wife and I when we were in a state of conflict or withdrawl .. and once we finally got back into intimacy again, our children, after spending many minutes in time out for the first few weeks for behaviour we didnt like INCLUDING my 13 year old) they changed their ways as well because my wife and I became consistant with what we expected of them and did not make any decisions regarding them until we both had a chance to put the POJA into action. So as you rebuild your intimacy with your wife with MB you will be able to call your kids on any of their behaviours that may reflect your old ways.
Keep up the good work Hilltopper. Your doing fine. Just remember. Find out what her needs are ... become an expert at meeting them effortlessly (only the top 5, do not waste your efforts on the lowest 5). BE the example and she will follow. Correct as we have stated earlier and dont let your taker get in the way right now. Everything will fall into place and before ya know it you guys will be so in love again you will wonder how you had ever fallen out of love. Could be even better than when you first met since marriages dont come with instruction manuals. Just like kids dont either .. but Dr. Harley's marital research has been a GOLDMINE of wisdom to follow. I still can not thank him enough .. so I try to help others with his material more often. NOt so much here on the forums ... but in others around me as they see my wife and I transform from the biggest drama in the family to the ones everyone is coming to for support now (which i must admit i have to turn them down alot now to try and keep my 15hours a week for my wife)
OK .. sorry for typing so much .. im losing my train of thought now >.< and have to get some work done lol ...
I don't know about your wife, but this made ME cry. Often I see this here, on this site, one spouse truly wanting to make their marriage better, and the other fighting it tooth and nail. I also see where my marriage never stood a chance. And that is where I cry. Best of luck to you both.
We had a "breakthrough" this morning! Yeah! She accepted responsibility as did I for the state of our marriage. I guess the honesty thing works! She promised that if I could watch the kids that she'd go upstairs and read Dr Harley's book. Here was my note to her and I'm so very excited to begin the journey together. I know it will be rough and we'll make mistakes along the way but I'm prepared for that. Thanks so much to all of you for the wonderful advice, it helped me tremendously and I plan to visit this forum frequently to continue receiving help and then hopefully eventually helping others.
My note early this morning to her:
Thank you for this, it is so important in my mind that we BOTH accept responsibility for the state of our marriage. By no means does fault lie with one person or the other. I have accepted that I don't meet your emotional needs and have neglected them for a long, long time. As I began to research it and do some soul searching I eventually stumbled on MarriageBuilders.com. This was not the first website I came across, I've looked at a ton. It is however the biggest and the best and after reading quite literally dozens of stories of people that were in the place we were but now have marital bliss I became a believer. Most marriage counselors, especially the free kind, don't work. It does no good for us to sit in a room together with a counselor and sit there and debate back and forth trying to get the counselors to take our side. That is exactly how it always turns out which is why there are very few successful marriage counselors period. I believe that by reading and following the principles of Dr Harley like so many others have before us, we can rebuild love back in our marriage. The Love Bank we both have right now if in the negative for each other which is why we don't feel love. When we feel that feeling of love for each other it becomes much easier and in fact exciting to be with each other.
You talked about your motivations for hurting me below. I don't think either one of us makes a conscious choice to hurt or disrespect the other. A lot of times we probably don't even realize we've done it. Many times we view hurtful things in our own eyes rather than in the eyes of our spouse. Just because I don't find some of the little things that you like don't mean they are not important to you. Just because you don't feel that you are hurting me doesn't mean that you aren't.
You refer to my wanting to always be right and being vengeful, how so? I don't want to be right or vengeful, I just want for you to love me and for me to love you. If you see being so persistent coming back to the same things over and over again it is because it means a lot to me to have a good marriage. That is my motivation, nothing else.
I will watch all the kids tonight so you can go read upstairs and I thank you for starting this first step. I don't see myself as being better than you for finding this wonderful site that I truly believe will help us by the way. I was just lucky for having stumbled upon it. If you can learn and read and take action with me this will snowball. One love deposit from me leads to one from you which leads to a whole lot of them back and forth. I know it might seem hard to believe that you could actually love me and be excited for me to come home after work, but it is true. We will have our mistakes along the way but it is worth it all. Our kids need to see a mommy and daddy that love each other, don't disrespect or undermine each other. They need to see parents that are on the same side of the fence. You can grab the book or you can read the basic concepts right on their site. Link is below. Oh, and one more thing, I DO love you very much.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html
Sunny,
The blame game isn't a two way street in our house. It is a one way. My wife blames circumstances and other people for anything and everything. I don't. I'm no hero for it, it is just how I see life. I remember in high school, friends would get a bad grade on a test and rather than accepting the consequences, their parents would get involved and negotiate to retake it. I always had an issue about stuff like that.
Thanks so much for the advice! I feel good about where things are headed. We had a couple of encounters today that fizzled out rather quickly because we both have learned a bit. She DJ'd me a few times and I lashed out because she was just simply wrong to do so. It diffused though within a few minutes so things are improving. I pulled the book back out and she said, "Is that sign?" I said of course, we need to keep at it, she said ok fine I'll read some more tomorrow. We're both exhausted tonight!
I hear ya! My wife is the Taker and I totally understand why she is dragging her feet a bit. Makes perfect sense actually. she sees a change though and we've had some lovely moments in the last couple of days. I'll keep you all posted and thanks again for the great advice.
Hilltopper ... hows it going over there?? Was thinking about you today because I had a moment my self where I had to take my own advice and use it on my wife. So i had to review what i had said to you and put it into action myself. I guess it was time for some more "practice" lol
Anyhow, my wife was pretty snarky to me last night and this morning ... So i gently told her that I was frustrated with her attitude and she went off a bit how i caused it. I then told her that was a love buster. Then since the conversation was not going anywhere but starting to build resentment, I left the room for the remainder of the evening.
Then this morning ... I kissed her good bye on her forehead without saying anything(which woke her up) and got in my car and went to work. A few hours later she called me and apologized for love busting me last night. My frustrations lifted almost instantly when she did.
Hopefully your having some luck!
Mr Nice Guy,
Thanks for sharing above. It is definitely a tough situation for both of us one would appear. How'd you feel about leaving the room? It is difficult for me to do because I honestly feel that she wanted to fight in the first place.
As far as my situation since last time I checked in, things have improved in terms of minimizing the DJ's and SD's for sure. She read the first 20 pages or so of Love Busters, so she gets it. She still fires some daggers at me particularly when she is grumpy. My two real concerns are the following:
Emotional Needs: I told her a couple days ago that I intentionally hold back in meeting more of her emotional needs than I already have been because I feel a since of inequity in this endeavor. I clearly am putting in way more effort in meeting her needs than the other way around. In fact aside from it just being more pleasant around the house, I see almost no attempt to meet my emotional needs at all and it really bothers me. I also told her that she has been the taker long enough and I have no desire to be her "whipping boy" and do whatever she tells me to do anymore. I also said this WILL happen and she can work with me to make it easier on both of us.
Blaming: This isn't going away at all. My wife refuses to take responsibility for anything and its completely ridiculous. Here is an illustration of just how bad it is. I asked her if she would make dinner two nights ago if I went to the store and bought some stuff for tortilla soup and enchiladas. I do 98% of the cooking so this was unusual, but she agreed and was happy to do so. Btw, her cooking is not an emotional need for me at all. So the soup and enchiladas were both lousy on her own admission. I comforted her and said it was delicious, but eventually assessed it with her honestly because it wasn't really a matter of opinion if it was good tasting or not! So later that evening she said, "The reason the dinner was bad was because I was in a bad mood and the person that published the recipe online was an idiot."
This is how far she takes it all day every day. I don't know if it is just an annoying habit or not. It seems to me to be more serious than that. It makes marriage difficult when one spouse never takes responsibility for anything if she doesn't want to. Like I mentioned before when my four and six year old start to do it I hold them accountable at each turn and let them know it is unacceptable. So whenever we have a disagreement she projects whatever it is on to something or someone else, usually me. My wife goes through life knowing that she has an out or excuse for literally everything. She has time for gardening, lots of television, shopping online, etc, but she has no time for reading LoveBusters or her husband. But she says, "Its not my fault, the kids are with me all day."
I guess this is a process and I'm not discouraged to the point of not trying, but I need to demand(somehow unselfishly) that she join me in this goal of bringing love back into our marriage. She is the Taker so she's not in any hurry I suppose.
One more thing, how can stop doing everything she asks me without it being an obvious attempt at some form of equity in our relationship? She asks me to do all these things because lets face it, I do them. Why would she stop?
How'd you feel about leaving the room? It is difficult for me to do because I honestly feel that she wanted to fight in the first place.
So you think the best idea is to indulge her? Please rethink that.
My two real concerns are the following:
Emotional Needs: I told her a couple days ago that I intentionally hold back in meeting more of her emotional needs than I already have been because I feel a since of inequity in this endeavor.
Where is this in the MB literature? What plan is this? It's not MB, not at all. This is PUNISHING your spouse, you are selfishly demanding that she meet your needs, OR ELSE.
Blaming: This isn't going away at all. My wife refuses to take responsibility for anything and its completely ridiculous. Here is an illustration of just how bad it is. I asked her if she would make dinner two nights ago if I went to the store and bought some stuff for tortilla soup and enchiladas.
So the soup and enchiladas were both lousy on her own admission. I comforted her and said it was delicious, but eventually assessed it with her honestly because it wasn't really a matter of opinion if it was good tasting or not! So later that evening she said, "The reason the dinner was bad was because I was in a bad mood and the person that published the recipe online was an idiot."
This is how far she takes it all day every day.
Okay, Q #1: did she want to prepare soup and enchiladas? You may be better off requesting that she cook whatever she likes to make best. I could *demand* that my H make fried chicken and mashed potatoes for me, but if I want something tasty, I better ask for meatloaf.
Q#2: what would you think about trying to understand her form of communication? Once you understand, you'll be better able to not be irritated by it, AND you can gently persuade her to be more direct. I read your quote as her saying, "I didn't want to do this in the first place, and then I picked a bad recipe." Which is totally accepting blame imho. "I agreed to something I wasn't enthusiastic about, then I got sloppy because I wasn't enthusiastic." kwim?
One more thing, how can stop doing everything she asks me without it being an obvious attempt at some form of equity in our relationship? She asks me to do all these things because lets face it, I do them. Why would she stop?
In MB parlance, you should stop doing everything she asks that you are not enthusiastic about doing. Honestly enthusiastic, not the PUNISHMENT you described above. Don't refuse to do something purely out of spite.
You make some points here that I believe are assumptions on your part. You do have a few thousand posts on me here so I'll yield to your experience, however she made whatever she wanted for dinner, not me. I asked her if she wanted to make dinner, she said sure, she opened some cook books for ideas, and chose what she chose, I had nothing to do with it. She has no problems saying no if she doesn't want to do something.
In regards to to leaving the room, I should rephrase my comment to "It isn't difficult, but it makes me feel sad every time it happens."
In holding back meeting her emotional needs, it is not really a conscious intentional decision. It is more along the lines of not wanting to meet her needs because she doesn't bother meeting mine. This is instinctual and selfish I know this, but I have yet to see a change in her behavior as a result of a change in mine. She's still taking, I'm giving, and it is hard to do day in and day out without fail indefinitely. My Taker wants to come out and play and I keep shoving him down out of the picture. I can appreciate things taking time, but at some point there needs to be a shock to the system to make progress and this is the part I'm struggling with. She likes it how it is, I don't, and it has to change. I don't want everyday to be about me being brutally honest about how she makes me feel and how unhappy I am, this makes her resent me and lash out at me.
First, pay no attention to post count when determining if someone knows what they're talking about.
You said in your post I quoted that you *told her* it was intentional about meeting needs. Then you said it wasn't intentional. Which is it? What do you think she believes? If my H told me that he intentionally wasn't meeting my needs because I didn't meet all of his, I would consider him a self-serving jerk and would be LESS inspired to meet his needs. Because that would tell me that he was only doing things for me out of 'what's in it for him'. Not because he loved me and wanted to show me that. Be careful of the message you're sending. You want to be firm, and actionable, on what you want from her.
You've only been here two months. Have some patience. Change your side of the interactions, don't fall for bait, and for goodness sakes stop DJing her intentions.
Hilltopper as i previously mentioned, when you let your taker come into play while trying to win your wife over to taking on MB principals you are back peddling and that does not help your situation. You need to come out looking like a saint to show that MB is changing you. If you stop meeting her needs then it will be hard to convince her that MB is working for you because obviously she wants her needs met first.
You said shes read about 20 pages of "love busters" and that she "gets it" ... but having read only 20 pages doesnt really give a clear picture of what the love busters are. By creating a resentful environment and allowing your taker to move in she will DEF be unwilling to continue reading. My wife did this to me over and over again ... Let me remind you of my previous post to you that highlighted what your going through right now.
In a situation similar to mine .. I had read the book "his needs her needs" myself looking for answers. I read it prior to convincing my wife to read it. WHen an attempt to create an intimate mood failed she would throw the book back at me (knowing i had read it) when I would try to explain my self while frustrated at her negative reaction, she would say ..
Well see! Now your going back to your old ways again. OBVIOUSLY *rolls her eyes* that book is not even helping you and everything your doing for me is a lie!
Then my knee jerk reaction would be to convince her that my actions and affection are not manipulation, but that attempt to convince her i was being genuine would bring out the taker in me and proved to her, in HER mind (disrespectful judgement), that I was being my regular annoying self.
You asked .. "How did it feel to leave the room?" Well .. it never feels good. I feel aweful actually. But it is necessary to disengage and establish boundries to what is and is not acceptable. Lashing back and with holding on meeting EN's of the non conformed relcutant spouse, is not going to convince her at all .. and she will resent the program entirely until she sees a consistant change in you! Since you are the one that is here .. its up to you to be the example.. Dont tell it ... LIVE IT.
If you read my story, you will see the gaps between my posts. It took a long.. LONG time to get my wife on board. Coupled with alot of praying. I banged my head against the wall alot trying to convince her to do MB with me but keeping MY TAKER at bay was hard work. What your doing with your taker .. happened to me ALOT. And each time I let my taker take over, It was back to square one.
Did you ask your wife if she was willing to read with you if you got the kids to bed at a decent time? Get the daily chores done, Run a bath ... and wash her back and read out loud to her while she relaxes? Or sit in bed together after she gets out and read together? Maybe reading lovebusters first is nota good idea? try approaching her with some articles first .. ones that she can relate to before bringing up your own ... How about the book "His needs Her needs" first?
Keep at it ... you will hit your head on the wall many times and back peddle alot til you get your taker under control. I know I did ...
MNG
Edited for wording
Hilltopper,
CWMI has the right idea about need meeting. Think about parents of childen...we love to meet their needs...affection, support, admiration...the whole gambit. We never expect to get our needs met from them...
Do what feels right but not what makes you resentful. You shouldn't be keeping score.
I used to do that so I know.
An example is, I love to text/e-mail. I used to do it with my friends when I heard/saw something cute or funny. Very rarely with my husband because he didn't ever respond and I just got mad. Now, when I see or hear something and want to tell him about it I do. He responds a lot. If I count them, they are nowhere near equal but that is okay.
It's like I tell my kids...don't say I love you unless you mean it and if you mean it, it won't matter if he/she says it back.
Once she feels this from you, she will most likely fall in love and WANT to meet your needs.
This is all so tough what all of you said. I feel as if my "taker" comments are something I share with you all honestly. I don't disrespect her in person any longer, I express my feelings about that to you. I can't control my feelings, all I can do is choose not to express feelings or make comments that will hurt her. I keep waking up every day waiting for her to say something like, "I'm so sorry I don't deserve you. I'm so sorry for doing this to you all this time." I know that this sounds so self serving and egotistical. I'm gonna keep doing this thing as best I can with all my heart. What scares me is my instincts tell me she is either unwilling or incapable of making this change with me. I no longer mention her mother to her anymore which is of great concern to me. I feel that it is ok to mention to you that the situation she grew up in wasn't only horrific, but continues to this day. This lady is awful, friggin disgusting to my wife, her husband, etc. I don't even think my wife has control over her emotions or actions. Call me crazy, angry, or just frustrated, but I'm fighting a battle that is just ridiculous. I get excited at times and then get a door slammed in my face over and over again and I don't know how long I can keep taking it. Everybody in here keeps saying that if I lead by example then "she'll most likely fall in love with you again", but I'm sorry man I'm just not buying it as of yet. I'm certain it works for many but I have yet to see one ounce of return for my investment. Do I want to fill her love bank yes!!!!!!! More than you know, I don't do it just to fill my own pockets. But how long do you keep giving to someone that only benefits them forever? I need way more insight and advice here, I'm struggling.
don't say I love you unless you mean it and if you mean it, it won't matter if he/she says it back.
I'm with ya, Sunny, except for this part. That's really up to the listener, I think. It's very important for some people to hear that affirmation.
Hilltopper ... It seems as though your wife is just not allowing you to meet her needs (you do know what they are dont you? did you fill out the emotional needs questionaire?) If you know what they are .. and your doing your best to fill them .. and shes not responding in any sort of positivity I would suspect that their may be another man in the picture somewhere.
Do you go to work full time and is she at home all day? Do you have a household computer that you all share? Does she have facebook?
I would do some snooping to see who shes chatting to when your gone to work. Could be she may have some kind of affair going on. I know my wife kinda did ... but it was only EA. HOwever .. that is still bad becasue then she is getting her need for intimate conversation met by someone else other than you and that can put up an emotional barrier between you and her. Most women need deep conversataion to feel loved. NOt casual talk .. but talk about feelings .. etc.
I didnt even know that EA's (emotional affairs) existed until I came here. I had them myself without realizing it .. not to the point of falling in love with someone ... but sharing details of my marriage with other women .. and my wife did the same with guys she met online. Well .. that opens a HUGE can of worms and it wittles away at your love for eachother. ALL MARITAL ISSUES should be either communicated respectfuly to your wife and hers to you .. and the only other acceptable communication about your marriage issues should be to a friend of the SAME SEX. Our instincts tell us to indulge in this conversation with opposite sex friends becasue its "easier" or becasue your getting a point of view from the other sexes perspective .. but that is DANGEROUS.
Has your wife ever said .. "your more like a brother to me" or .. I LOVE you but i am NOT in love with you" or anything along those lines? If so .. get snooping! Meanwhile ... you continue plan A and be the best Hubby you can be until you find out whats going on and why your on the bottom of the importance list.
Once my wife eliminated the online scene ... and ended all communications with her online buddies she was grouchy for a while .. but soon realized that feelings follow actions and as we read his needs her needs .. she began to realize what it was we were missing. And more specificly what it was she needed from me after she got a better mind set on the whole marriage builders concepts.
To do this .. I would suggest you put a keylogger on your home PC. This will get you passwords and everything for all her internet activity. Your Wife sounds VERY foggy especially since shes not responding very well to your Plan A. Head over to the Operation investigate area of the forum .. and check out some of the tools they post over there to snoop. I use
www.desktopshark.com for a keylogger becasue its free and is not detectable by my antivirus.
If you find something questionable.. DO NOT LET HER KNOW! DO NOT CONFRONT! .. Gather your evidence .. and save it all somewhere safe then come back here to form a plan with us and continue your plan A.
MNG
p.s. Have you read his needs her needs yet?
(you do know what they are dont you? did you fill out the emotional needs questionaire?)
Million dollar question, to which I'll add: does she know yours?
ETA: unless you thoroughly fill out the questionnaires, it's all shooting in the dark. "I need more sex," for instance...easily met by ramping up from 0 times a month to once, right? Or completely unmeetable because 'more sex' means five times a day. Without the information as listed on the Q's, stating a vague need ("More conversation" rather than "30 minutes of conversation once a day") is useless.
I went through the phone records, email, etc. Nothing there, I even asked her and she gave a resounding no. I don't think it is in here values to be a cheater, sexual or other. Besides we have a 4 month old, a 4 year old and a 6 year old so I just don't see it being possible. I'm very confident in her answer and will move past it and get back to LoveBusters.
We each know each other's emotional needs and I read them frequently. She gave me the most common 10 but never told me which ones were the most important. Being a practical dude I went straight for the ones like taking care of kids, making lunches, doing laundry, etc. We had a fight last night and a long, long talk this morning. It revolved around a few things which I'll get into later, but as it relates to EN's, she ranked the most important ones. First on her list was romance and I was shocked to say the least. Either she makes me feels stupid or I just feel stupid when I do romantic stuff. I feel like she is laughing at me behind my back. I told her that I would work on this and that it would be great if she gave me feedback about things. See for me I can't help but want to know that what I'm doing is making an impact and we struggle with this. She doesn't communicate as good as she thinks she does so I'm constantly guessing. Any feedback on romance would be amazing cause I'm ready to dive in. I want to feel confident that what I'm doing is being enjoyed by her. I WANT to make her happy in this way.
The next emotional need on the list was as a father. I'm a great father and I guess I raise our children how I was raised. Our daughter is six and is scared to ride her bike. I ask her if she wants to give it a shot about once a week and she turns it down out of fear. I guess I prefer not to "push" my kids into anything, but rather introduce them to things. If they get into it then they get 100% support from me all the way. I asked my wife her motivation for this, was it for our daughter's sake or hers? In other words, is she embarrassed about it? She said it wasn't the reason why and I guess it really doesn't matter. It would make her happy if I put a little more emphasis on the bike thing so I will.
Lastly she wants me to be more "handy". This isn't going away. She knows I'm not the greatest with a drill, but I want to put in the effort. I'm perfectly ok with not being mr fixit and she doesn't expect me to start building cabinets in the garage, but she gets annoyed when things are broken around the house. Money is tight and has been for a long time so I feel like I'm automatically against spending money regardless of what it is for which causes a lot of my inaction. I set a reminder for me every Sat morning to "fix something that is cheap." I can't do the big stuff and we can't afford it, but the little things I'm perfectly capable of so I'll keep doing so until they are all done.
I am concerned about her reluctance to try more. She fully admits to being in Taker mode and being selfish. I get easily discouraged when I do my best to meet her emotional needs but the same effort is not coming back the other way you know? I let her know that if nothing else I want to see a solid effort. What else besides being a parent is more important than our marriage. Our children need to see a loving an affectionate mommy and daddy too and that we'd be foolish to think they don't see it or sense it on a regular basis.
Hilltopper .. Are you sure you read the emotional needs on this site? Has your wife read the emotional needs? The ones your describing (romance) (father) (handyman).. those are not terms of MB but I will help identifiy them for you.
Romance - This need of your wife for romance falls under the 2 top emotional needs of women generally. Those being "affection"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html and "intimate conversation."
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html To meet these needs you need to have 15 hours a week together aprox to fulfill this. (its 15 on MB but even i have a hard time with 15hours sometimes its 10 .. sometimes its 12 sometimes its 8. Her side of the "romance" is all non sexual .. make sure your affection does not have a sexual undertone in it otherwise its just displaying your need for sexual fulfillment.. there is a fine line there.
Here is the link to the emotional needs questionair!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.htmlPrint it out .. x2 .. then fill them out .. and exchange them. It makes it pretty simple.
Father - Your wifes need for you to be a father is her need for "family commitment"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3345_fam.html Herre is a tip for you to teach your daughter to ride a bike .. and i used it on my own kids. Get a 2 wheeler that is too small for her .. remove the pedals and the shaft that goes in between .. and lower the seat so she stands higher than that bike. then get her to practice "coasting" and runing on it while sitting on the seat. My son and daughter both learned this way .. and it only took a few days with lots of encouragement and positive reinforcement from me.
Handyman - Your wifes need for you to be more handy falls in the category of "domestic support"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.htmlRead the links and print out the emotional needs questionaire and do them together and then exchange them and discuss.
I think her reluctance to try more is deriving from the focus on love busters. Get her on board with what resounds with her. Maybe print out some of the concepts for her that revolve around what she wants you to do and let her see if your doing them by compaing your "doing" with what Dr. Harley says falls into those categories that interest her. She may be more open to MB approcahing from it from what she will get out of it rather than focusing on the bad side of things. REading His needs her needs will really expand on the "good stuff" more so than the bad stuff like love busters does. I think with the love busters book ... its putting pressure on her to change bad behaviours .. but i think due to its negative undertone she is taking with it she is being reluctant because she cant see the light at the end of hte tunnel. Make it more about her and how your goin to do what Dr. Harleys articles suggest and point out her needs to her through Dr. Harleys terms. Then she will recognize more so what your doing .. and be able to compare your efforts to what the dr. Prescribes.
You could bring up her need for romance .. and show her the articles on conversation .. and affection. And being with those to open the door to being the hubby she wants you to be.
Keep up the good work ... With my wife I had to point out more and more about what was in it for her and how I was to change rather than show her what she needed to change.
MNG
p.s. Vets If i am getting this wrong or mixed up .. plz let me know .. my posts get a bit long winded so i lose my train of thought often lol.
edit for spelling and a messed up link
Hilltopper .. Are you sure you read the emotional needs on this site? Has your wife read the emotional needs? The ones your describing (romance) (father) (handyman).. those are not terms of MB but I will help identifiy them for you.(Yes I've read them all!)
Romance - This need of your wife for romance falls under the 2 top emotional needs of women generally. Those being "affection"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html and "intimate conversation." (The affection is there from me, not from her. I make efforts to hug, kids, tell her I love her daily, she doesn't at the current time need any more affection.)http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html(I've made an effort and I told her this to look her in the eyes when she talks and take an interest in what she is saying. Its been better, but I'm still working on improving.)
To meet these needs you need to have 15 hours a week together aprox to fulfill this. (its 15 on MB but even i have a hard time with 15hours sometimes its 10 .. sometimes its 12 sometimes its 8. Her side of the "romance" is all non sexual .. make sure your affection does not have a sexual undertone in it otherwise its just displaying your need for sexual fulfillment.. there is a fine line there.(I hear ya on this point. I offered a massage which likely had a sexual overtone, btw there is no sex whatsoever, zilch. We spend about 2 hours at night after the kids to to bed, most of the time it is in front of TV watching the shows we both like together because we are so exhausted. I suggested scrabble instead but she kind of was down on the idea. I'm not confident right now knowing when to just "do things" vs "ask things". Maybe next time I won't ask I'll just setup the table and see how it plays out.)
Here is the link to the emotional needs questionair!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.htmlPrint it out .. x2 .. then fill them out .. and exchange them. It makes it pretty simple.(will do, we have the workbook)
Father - Your wifes need for you to be a father is her need for "family commitment"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3345_fam.html Herre is a tip for you to teach your daughter to ride a bike .. and i used it on my own kids. Get a 2 wheeler that is too small for her .. remove the pedals and the shaft that goes in between .. and lower the seat so she stands higher than that bike. then get her to practice "coasting" and runing on it while sitting on the seat. My son and daughter both learned this way .. and it only took a few days with lots of encouragement and positive reinforcement from me.(Good idea)
Handyman - Your wifes need for you to be more handy falls in the category of "domestic support" http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.html(Domestically I'm a champ, I do more than any dad I know around the house. She has a specific desire for me to be good at fixing or building stuff. She never lets it go and often times "belittles" me about it because she knows it hurts me I assume. I can get better here.)
Read the links and print out the emotional needs questionaire and do them together and then exchange them and discuss.
I think her reluctance to try more is deriving from the focus on love busters. Get her on board with what resounds with her. Maybe print out some of the concepts for her that revolve around what she wants you to do and let her see if your doing them by compaing your "doing" with what Dr. Harley says falls into those categories that interest her. She may be more open to MB approcahing from it from what she will get out of it rather than focusing on the bad side of things. REading His needs her needs will really expand on the "good stuff" more so than the bad stuff like love busters does. I think with the love busters book ... its putting pressure on her to change bad behaviours .. but i think due to its negative undertone she is taking with it she is being reluctant because she cant see the light at the end of hte tunnel. Make it more about her and how your goin to do what Dr. Harleys articles suggest and point out her needs to her through Dr. Harleys terms. Then she will recognize more so what your doing .. and be able to compare your efforts to what the dr. Prescribes.(All of this is great and yes I'm sure she feels the negative undertone because she is guilty about not making the effort? I dunno, I guess this doesn't matter either. She mentioned actually getting two jars out that represents our love banks and putting notes in each time we do something that fills it up. That way it is easy to see who is doing what and I'm sure she'll feel bad if hers is full and mine is mostly empty you know? Any issues with this?)
You could bring up her need for romance .. and show her the articles on conversation .. and affection. And being with those to open the door to being the hubby she wants you to be.
Keep up the good work ... With my wife I had to point out more and more about what was in it for her and how I was to change rather than show her what she needed to change.
MNG
p.s. Vets If i am getting this wrong or mixed up .. plz let me know .. my posts get a bit long winded so i lose my train of thought often lol.
edit for spelling and a messed up link
If you want to also show me how to quote stuff properly I'd be grateful for the instruction. My answers are in brackets above.
When i do multiple quotes ... what I do is log in to MB .. then open a second tab with MB in it again .. this way it leaves my reply open on one .. while i chop up quotes from the other one and copy and paste them into my posts/replies. So for instance .. lets say you want to just quote a small piece of my post .. you would open MB in a seperate window and find my post .. and hit QUOTE. This opens the reply box again but you just cut out all the stuff you do not want in the quote move the BB code quote commands around to where you deem fit.
the quote commands look like this but no spaces: [ quote=username ] text here [ /quote ] all the quoted stuff goes in between the commands where it says text here .. so if you do it right it would look like this
You can actually look up BB codes on the net and use a wide assortment of them including bold texting ... colours ... size ... etc. all with BB codes. All the codes go in between the [ ] and to end the code so it goes .. you have to have the / in the second command like for instance I could bold this text
BOLD using [ b ] bold [/b]
get it?
You can learn all sorts of BB codes here ..
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcodeKeep at it ... get those questionairs filled out .. and until she is more onboard with MB dont dwell too much on the negative or the lovebusters. Woo her into MB by showing her whats in it for her ... keep the topics short. Like one article a day .. or sit down over a cup of coffee and read out the affection one to her or the conversation one to her .. etc .. keep it simple. Babies dont start with solid food .. so you give them milk until they grow. Your wife is in the same boat .. give her the "milk" of MB by showing her the easy stuff, the stuff that allows her to see your changes and helps her understand her needs (my wife didnt even know her needs until it was all laid out to her in baby steps. After you do the questionairs .. then focus on her needs and the articles and info that surrounds them. I would get right off of love busters since she is being reluctant .. and go for the mushy stuff .. like his needs her needs .. its more focused on the happy side of marriage rather than the side that could be taken as a bit offensive until they see the entire picture.
My wife and I started with the POJA article (that got the ball roling and my wife lit up after reading it and said
Ha ha! This is a double edged sword!
... then after she got ideas in her head how she could get what she wanted using POJA we read His needs her needs ... and the ball just continued to roll from there. The LAST one we did .. (just 2 weeks ago) was love busters ... it was easier to chew on becasue my wife already understood the other "milk" topics that I fed her.
Keep it up ... you will break through to her. Just a matter of time .. and finding the right chord that strikes her.
Also ... to comment on her idea about 2 jars.
She mentioned actually getting two jars out that represents our love banks and putting notes in each time we do something that fills it up. That way it is easy to see who is doing what and I'm sure she'll feel bad if hers is full and mine is mostly empty you know? Any issues with this?
I don't think thats such a good idea as of yet. It may backfire on you and cause more resentment. Because what she THINKS should give you a deposit may not and vise versa and then to see efforts not working especially in light of a jar .. may cause a back slide and then the "taker" in each of you will notice the scores not even and try to convince you to get what you need by any means possible. I could be wrong .. Maybe it would work .. But if you were to do that .. suggest she read His needs her needs FIRST! to get a better idea at what all the needs are. THen let HER put that plan into action. Not you. You could mention it to her like this " thats a great idea hunny, I think that would be great! Lets work together at identifiying all DR. Harleys Ideas on what emotional needs are .. then that way we can figure out what to put notes in the jars for!"
To make that work ... SHE would have to put something in HER jar if you did something that made her feel loved etc. and you put something in YOUR jar if she did something that made you feel loved. The note could contain exactly what it was that caused the deposit.
*shrugs*
Edit for more details.
Thank you both, I have His Needs Her Needs on my nightstand, read about a chapter or so. I'll go get it right now. The intention of the jar is how you mentioned it at the end. We fill up our jars when someone fills or takes away. She is in charge of hers, I'm in charge of mine. Because feedback is such a problem this will give us the ability, particularly me, to know what she like or didn't like. It will also allow me to know when I've taken away when I probably to this day don't even know that I do! I find myself feeling sick to my stomach right now. She is sick, I brought her some chicken soup, bought four jars for our experiment on the way home. Why do I feel stupid that I'm so obviously giving her what she asked for? Did anyone else feel this way at first? I don't yet at this time feel confident that it will change to be honest. I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she does want to get love back in her marriage. She's admittedly been in taker mode for so friggin long, it is gonna take a bit to break out of it. This is so exhausting. After our big talk today she was obviously stressed and told me she was going out with her friend for the night. She never does this so its not a big deal other than the fact that her first instinct had nothing to do with my emotions or state of mind. She went straight to what will bring her spirits up you know? I told her that I had hoped we would spend time together tonight. She still isn't feeling well so that just might happen. All in all I guess there is progress but I'm still terrified her effort just won't be there. What do I do then? Don't answer that I'm sure you'll tell if we need to cross that bridge.
I'm downstairs early. We started the jar thing unofficially last night. She told me I had made two deposits and one withdrawal. The withdrawal was an annoying habit. I told my wife she made one withdrawl. I don't know how to classify it, I brought down the laundry basket to fold laundry and she quickly rejected my help, is it a DJ? Anyway, baby woke up about 4am, the heat was on cause it is cold out here, she snipped at me half asleep about the heat being on(its on every night, but for some reason when she is grumpy or uncomfortable she has me as her target). So this was one withdrawal. Second one was just a bit ago. She feeding baby, I'm lying on my side of the bed, she pushes my foot out of the way because she wanted to stretch her foot to my side of the bed. No big deal right? Well being that my number one emotional need which I've clearly stated to her is to be affectionate to me, this was completely the opposite which was "get away from me". This little gesture hurt and was clearly a big withdrawal. So after a big talk yesterday, working through some things, promising to "read every night" Dr Harley's books, she went straight to bed, didn't read, the made two withdrawals all before six am. I'm hoping once she wakes up and gets some coffee in her she'll remember her commitment and adjust to make some deposits down since I'm already 0-3. I prayed last night that God would open her heart and mind to all of this stuff.
I don't know how to classify it, I brought down the laundry basket to fold laundry and she quickly rejected my help, is it a DJ?
Can you expand on this? What was said?
When she pushed your foot out of the way did she push it away and then withdraw? I push my dh's leg over all the time so I can put a leg on his side, but I want him to stay touching me, just in a way thats comfortable to me.
Are you reading into her intentions the most negative or positive possible explanation?
It was a quick, look you don't need to be perfect here and do the laundry. I know I have a pattern of assuming what my wife's intentions are, but I assume in this case that she was feeling guilt? Since the last post, we kind of had a mini-tif. I'm not good at hiding my annoyance with my wife, she spots it every time and asked me, so I told her. I told her the things that were withdrawals to my LB, she went by instinct to the "you're reading into it and I didn't mean it that way", which I quickly reminded her that those are my feelings and you can't tell me how I'm supposed to feel. She actually did say "I get it" which is a good thing. I also said I was concerned because no sooner did we just have a talk and agreed commitment that she pretty much ignored it starting with last night, early this morning, and then now. She did kiss me on the cheek which was nice, but I'll be honest my feelings being damaged as they were I assumed it was just a show. I won't make that mistake again, if she is trying, then I'll accept her affection no matter how she gives it. We continued our talk and she was going for a run for two hours. I have no problem with her getting away, she needs it, but I do have a problem with her automatically looking to do things that make her feel good without regard to me, you know? She said, "What is wrong with me running and getting exercise?" I said nothing, but that in our current situation I would thing some activities should be put on hold so that we can read and spend time together. She went running anyways. By the way I made her her favorite coffee, made breakfast for the kids, cleaned the dishes from the night before, tried to hold baby after we had our tif which she rejected which is bizarre. I can tell this morning she is feeling the inequity which might or might not be a good thing. So since about 4am she has withdrawn about 8 times with the 1 kiss coming in as a deposit. Mine is the opposite. I knew this would happen.
When she pushed your foot out of the way did she push it away and then withdraw? I push my dh's leg over all the time so I can put a leg on his side, but I want him to stay touching me, just in a way thats comfortable to me.
Are you reading into her intentions the most negative or positive possible explanation?
She pushed it away and pulled it back. We used to touch legs in bed all the time, but now she doesn't want to touch me at all. She told me that. This behavior and reluctance on her part to deal with issues is nothing new, she does it in every aspect of her life and I don't know why. She used to be in charge of the bills, but would put entire stacks of bills in the drawer out of site out of mind until we'd be paying late charges or getting accounts cancelled. She procrastinates all the time and I suppose this is no different. Due to the gravity of the situation I would think this would be different you know?
Ok knock down drag out fight just now. I told her I was gonna leave her. She must have a tough exterior because she almost looks like she enjoys this stuff. She said I ruined her day which is unbelievable. She is literally crazy I think, distorts everything, blames me for it all, its insane! Someone help me please I'm so lost, so upset, so sick to my stomach, and I don't know what to do. Not sure if there is anyone I can talk to on a Saturday but if there is I'd be willing to figure something out.
Hill, how did you react to her saying you didn't have to do the laundry? The way you post, I assume you had something along the lines of a hissy fit.
Why did you tell her you were gonna leave her? Are you? If you're not, why would you say such a thing? And then call her crazy???
Why don't you slow down, stop fighting with your wife, stop threatening her, and read the book?
I've read a book and a half man! I tried to get her to do the workbook with me, she keeps putting it off, everything is put off. Look I believe in the principles of this forum and Dr Harley, but you don't know what I'm up against. She won't try, period! I'm tired of pretending to make her feel better about ourself that "we are both responsible" for our current state. That is crap and a lie. SHE is responsible for this, has always been, and if nothing changes will be responsible for a divorce which hurts us and our three beautiful children. Selfish or not I demanded her to change starting NOW, now pushing it off for this or that. Yes I threatened my wife and I can appreciate the theory of not doing that and showing her what change looks like, but as I've said for years about this woman, nothing matters. I cannot control any outcomes or behavioral change no matter what I do on my end and never had. I'm sitting here terrified, hurt, scared about divorce, scared that she'll just push off something this serious again. Her Dad has let that vile mother of hers hurt him for 40 years of marriage, only having the courage to leave her about five years ago, only to come back after six months. I refuse to be helpless about my situation and let her do the same thing to me.
What exactly is she doing to you?
What is it that you want her to do now? Exactly?
You're full of BS that she is solely responsible for the state of your marriage, and until you ACTUALLY change that mindset, you're not going to get anywhere.
Threatening her makes you VERY UNATTRACTIVE. You realize this, right? If you stopped the threats, stopped engaging in arguments with her, you might be able to get somewhere. No action required on your part, only inaction! Can you do that? My H and I used to have huge arguments that would go on for days. You would be amazed at how that has simply *stopped*. You know how? I quit falling for it! Most of our arguments would be about me complaining to him about something he had done. He would bow up and get angry and start attacking me, and off we'd go! Now, I still complain if something bothers me, and sometimes he still bows up--but now instead of playing that game, I just say, "I only wanted to let you know that [whatever] is not okay with me. Now you know. We can talk about it if you'd like, but I will not be spoken to that way. If you raise your voice again, I'll leave the room and we can talk when you calm down." EASY. Try it.
You can search for the "When to call it quits" article. I wouldn't threaten divorce unless you really plan on doing something. There's nothing wrong with saying "I refuse to be in a marriage that involves X, Y, and Z" But I don't think you need to get mad and say, "That's it! I can't take it anymore...I'm divorcing."
I think it's perfectly okay to set forth what you will and will not accept in the marriage. You don't have to fight with her. Do drive by honesty. When she snips at you, "I don't appreciate you saying...." "I don't appreciate it when...." Do it right then and then drop it.
I don't think you're giving this enough time. Do Plan A. If nothing changes, go Plan B.
But, remember, you can't make your spouse do anything. If she's picked up these habits and has been doing them for years, it's going to take more than a couple of days for her to change. This is a process. And weeks/months later you're still working on them.
There's nothing wrong with expecting your ENs to be met back and for LBs to quit being thrown your way. You better make sure you're doing the same though.
ehm,hmm.
While reading your thread some questions came to mind.
- If you think your wife is a mean, egoistic, disfunctional character, why did you marry her? Did someone tie you to the altar and force you to say yes?
- If that is not the case, could it be possible that she is worn down (having a 4-month old and two other children and a husband who also wants things from her)
- You come across as being right most of the time and when you are not right, you admit it of course (you don't want to be so immature as your wife is)
- have you done anything fun lately? Because bugging her about reading HNYN or if she is irritated, saying I am going upstairs to read love busters.... is sure not going to make her fall in love again with you. It also is not going to make her mood better.
- you seem to be a smart person. come on. Sweep her off her feet a bit. Allthough... I had a depression though, after my 4th child, and the things which would be fun normally were very disappointing. If you are having feelings of despair yourself, could it be that the current stresses of your life are affecting you too? Because if that is the case, you may see thing differently when you are your own self again. Just think about it. If she is the person you willingly married, and you are going through a stressfull time, it is possible that it is affecting you in ways you do not realize. Please do something fun together which the two of you used to love. And no problem talk pleeeeaaaase. Just something fun. And if you do not have fun where you used to be thrilled, than you need to look a little deeper into the depression thing. Babysitters can be life saving!
You can do it. If baby gets 6 months old it will be a little better. If it is 1,5 years old it will get better still. And if it is 3, you will be back to normal again, or better of course. Hang on. You can save the family! Ride the storm out!
Oh, and please stop teaching her, or change your screen name to Mr. Wiseguy.
Being a know-all who tells her how to think is not sexy.
So you are saying if I read correctly, just do my thing filling up her love bank regardless of anything indefinitely? In the mean time I walk away from all fights , tell her when she hurts me nicely, and hope that she'll change? No offense to you all but prior to finding this forum I had unknowingly Bern the giver and her the taker for a long long time. By no means am I perfect but I'm a pleaser and I've worked a long time doing just that as it us my nature. My concern with this program is that my wife learned growing up that she doesn't need to accept responsibity fir her actions. every time I let her know she hurts me she just rejects it so how I compete with that?
Hill, how about giving Steve a call? He can help you organize a plan and get your wife on board. My marriage is far from perfect, but I don't think I'd still be married if I hadn't brought Steve into it. My H thought much like your W, that if I had a problem, it was my problem. He recognizes OUR problems now.
I agree completely with CWMI. I think investing in a few counceling sessions with Steve would be a good idea. Most of the women on here that have talked with him like talking to him and the way he relates to them. He seems to be pretty successful with 'breaking through' to people.
And no one is advocating sitting indefinately in an unhappy marriage.
My question is if you were to walk away right now, would you be 100% sure that you did all you could do to clean up your side of the fence and give the marriage 100% ?
And, yes, you call the spouse on all LBs when they do it.
I'll think about that. Yesterday started out rocky, but we did something fun with the kids, had lunch, etc. If nothing else it got the conversation started. We got to bed opened the workbook and she said she would let me read it to her. I read many of the LB's and EN's section and she wasn't mean about it, but I'd definitely say a little sarcastic about it. I got to the sexual fulfillment part and she blurted out, "that isn't gonna happen any time soon." This was like a dagger to my heart I realized later that night as I was trying to fall asleep. Why would she intentionally withhold one of my EN's? To be honest it made me consider the "other man" thing again. I definitely struggle with the honesty thing, but she was sleeping already and I'm scared to bring it up this morning. Everybody deals with their problems differently. I guess it also bothers me that she doesn't lose sleep at night over any of this stuff, or at least appears not to. I on the other hand am in agony about it all, can't eat, sick to my stomach. She did say that its "almost all my(her) fault about the affection thing" yesterday which was good. Anytime she admits anything it means we've made some progress. So here I sit this morning with the best of intentions, yet scared to even respectfully tell her that she hurt me last night with that comment and her somewhat sarcastic attitude about the workbook. Why wouldn't she want to participate with enthusiasm? In regards to the sex thing, its gotten worse over the years, we stopped kissing about 5-6 years ago when she had a tooth that had gone bad. The "breath" thing means its an automatic "no". This hurts. The "hop on" thing or "don't take too long" has been happening for a long time as well. At least it was something, now it is nothing at all with no sign of anything changing soon. I will say my persistence with this entire thing has caused there to be conflict so I'll consider the Steve thing, btw, who is Steve? I only know the name William Harley, right?
We talked a bit this morning about her "no sex anytime soon comment.". This makes me insecure big time. She said she "has no feelings for that yet" which I understand to some degree. I've never been insecure in this relationship until recently. Any ideas in how to not assume the worst about her lack of affection and desire for sexual fulfillment? Any ideas fir this insecure feeling in my stomach about the no sex thing? I wish no one brought up the other man thing otherwise I never would have considered it.
I agree completely with CWMI. I think investing in a few counceling sessions with Steve would be a good idea. Most of the women on here that have talked with him like talking to him and the way he relates to them. He seems to be pretty successful with 'breaking through' to people.
And no one is advocating sitting indefinately in an unhappy marriage.
My question is if you were to walk away right now, would you be 100% sure that you did all you could do to clean up your side of the fence and give the marriage 100% ?
And, yes, you call the spouse on all LBs when they do it.
I'll consider, $225 for 40 mins is probably worth it, but no an expense I can throw caution at the wind at. Believe me, I won't blow it off. How would I go about getting her to talk to Steve anyways?
What exactly is she doing to you?
What is it that you want her to do now? Exactly?
You're full of BS that she is solely responsible for the state of your marriage, and until you ACTUALLY change that mindset, you're not going to get anywhere.
Threatening her makes you VERY UNATTRACTIVE. You realize this, right? If you stopped the threats, stopped engaging in arguments with her, you might be able to get somewhere. No action required on your part, only inaction! Can you do that? My H and I used to have huge arguments that would go on for days. You would be amazed at how that has simply *stopped*. You know how? I quit falling for it! Most of our arguments would be about me complaining to him about something he had done. He would bow up and get angry and start attacking me, and off we'd go! Now, I still complain if something bothers me, and sometimes he still bows up--but now instead of playing that game, I just say, "I only wanted to let you know that [whatever] is not okay with me. Now you know. We can talk about it if you'd like, but I will not be spoken to that way. If you raise your voice again, I'll leave the room and we can talk when you calm down." EASY. Try it.
I'll use this approach and you have it correct it is 90% of the time me having issues with something she has done or said to me, or doesn't do to me that is an EN. I won't fall for the fights because every time I do, she goes into Taker mode and won't let me in.
ehm,hmm.
While reading your thread some questions came to mind.
- If you think your wife is a mean, egoistic, disfunctional character, why did you marry her? Did someone tie you to the altar and force you to say yes?
- If that is not the case, could it be possible that she is worn down (having a 4-month old and two other children and a husband who also wants things from her)
- You come across as being right most of the time and when you are not right, you admit it of course (you don't want to be so immature as your wife is)
- have you done anything fun lately? Because bugging her about reading HNYN or if she is irritated, saying I am going upstairs to read love busters.... is sure not going to make her fall in love again with you. It also is not going to make her mood better.
- you seem to be a smart person. come on. Sweep her off her feet a bit. Allthough... I had a depression though, after my 4th child, and the things which would be fun normally were very disappointing. If you are having feelings of despair yourself, could it be that the current stresses of your life are affecting you too? Because if that is the case, you may see thing differently when you are your own self again. Just think about it. If she is the person you willingly married, and you are going through a stressfull time, it is possible that it is affecting you in ways you do not realize. Please do something fun together which the two of you used to love. And no problem talk pleeeeaaaase. Just something fun. And if you do not have fun where you used to be thrilled, than you need to look a little deeper into the depression thing. Babysitters can be life saving!
You can do it. If baby gets 6 months old it will be a little better. If it is 1,5 years old it will get better still. And if it is 3, you will be back to normal again, or better of course. Hang on. You can save the family! Ride the storm out!
Of course nobody forced me to marry her, I just didn't know what I was getting, or she evolved into this person over time. Yes, the new baby has thrown a wrench in the program, but this is something that has been getting worse over time and will continue to get worse. We did something fun with the family yesterday and it got the conversation going a bit. It started rough, usually with me asking a question and her doing a one sentence answer. I hugged her on the way out the door today and although it was heart felt from me, it was a one arm lightly around my neck from her. She used the word "disgusted" referring to how she feels about me the other day. I'm sure you know how much that hurts to be felt about that way from a spouse. She doesn't disgust me at all, she is frustrating, but I do love her. She clearly has fallen out of love with me and it hurts so bad. If she is not in love with me anymore that would tell me or someone from the outside that I have made it so.
I politely sent her an email about how her being sarcastic about the workbook last night and making a comment about how sex, "ain't gonna happen any time soon" was a bit hurtful. I also stated two things that were nice that she did to balance it out. She sent me a one liner from her phone that said "Sorry about number 3 and 4". That was it no other explanation. I'll take the sorry I guess? Then I get a frantic text that was fairly lengthy about all the hotels being booked for some trip we are going on. So from my perspective spending time reading and replying to my concerns have taken a back seat to travel arrangements in May. I asked her specific questions in the email one being, "Was your sarcasm about the workbook just you putting up a tough exterior? I would appreciate you explaining if that is all it is so that I can "get you" better in the future." Why do I feel as if she is almost laughing at me behind my back?
Although it's hard, try not to fret too much over your W's responses to the overtures you're making, and what they might or might not reveal about her inner thoughts. You can quickly drive yourself crazy wondering and worrying about that.
Focus your energy on your own thoughts and actions -- the things you have control over. Maintain your own integrity. Continue with your program to build the relationship. Try to let your attitude be "I have decided what kind of man I want to be, and I'm working to achieve that goal." That won't keep you from being hurt, but it will help you avoid making yourself crazy by analyzing every little thing your W says and does.
You might tell her that the program works best when both people jump in head first. It means she meets your needs and you meet hers and both of you stop LBing immediately.
I don't know if I'll catch flack for this or not. But you might also tell her that you had not intended on living in a sexless marriage. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty.
Although it's hard, try not to fret too much over your W's responses to the overtures you're making, and what they might or might not reveal about her inner thoughts. You can quickly drive yourself crazy wondering and worrying about that.
Focus your energy on your own thoughts and actions -- the things you have control over. Maintain your own integrity. Continue with your program to build the relationship. Try to let your attitude be "I have decided what kind of man I want to be, and I'm working to achieve that goal." That won't keep you from being hurt, but it will help you avoid making yourself crazy by analyzing every little thing your W says and does.
Good point!
You might tell her that the program works best when both people jump in head first. It means she meets your needs and you meet hers and both of you stop LBing immediately.
I don't know if I'll catch flack for this or not. But you might also tell her that you had not intended on living in a sexless marriage. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty.
I've made more than a good effort at being incredibly honest about both of these things. Believe me she knows, but she is not yet willing to put forth the effort in her eyes. She keeps pointing back to being tired with kids about the "effort" in Dr Harley's principles. I can't control what she does so I'll keep focusing on doing what I can control and when I get frustrated with the inevitable inequities there, I'll come here instead, ok?
Absolutely tell her that you do not intend to live in a sexless marriage! BUT, also tell her that you're willing to stop the LBs that have eroded her love for you and meet her ENs in a way that makes her feel loved and valued. Otherwise it sounds like a threat.
To get her to talk to Steve (I assume you know who he is now?), try this: "My goal is to have a marriage where we both are madly in love with each other. I've read a lot about this Marriage Builders program and I think it is right for us because I think it works. I understand that you may be a little skeptical and I respect that. However, I am asking that you join me for a conversation with Steve Harley before you make a final decision about whether this is for us or not. Just a chat on the phone, how about it?"
My H initially said no, no more counseling...I said it wasn't counseling, it was coaching...he said no...I said well I have an appointment with him on [date and time I knew my H would be available], I don't know what to do here and *I* need a coach, but I do wish you would join me so he can get both sides. Oh yeah, he was there to give his side, bwa-ha-ha. H was READY for SH to straighten me out.
Absolutely tell her that you do not intend to live in a sexless marriage! BUT, also tell her that you're willing to stop the LBs that have eroded her love for you and meet her ENs in a way that makes her feel loved and valued. Otherwise it sounds like a threat.
To get her to talk to Steve (I assume you know who he is now?), try this: "My goal is to have a marriage where we both are madly in love with each other. I've read a lot about this Marriage Builders program and I think it is right for us because I think it works. I understand that you may be a little skeptical and I respect that. However, I am asking that you join me for a conversation with Steve Harley before you make a final decision about whether this is for us or not. Just a chat on the phone, how about it?"
My H initially said no, no more counseling...I said it wasn't counseling, it was coaching...he said no...I said well I have an appointment with him on [date and time I knew my H would be available], I don't know what to do here and *I* need a coach, but I do wish you would join me so he can get both sides. Oh yeah, he was there to give his side, bwa-ha-ha. H was READY for SH to straighten me out.
Yep considering very much the chat with Steve. For now I'm trying to avoid LB's at all costs, even more so than the EN's. Fights equal 48 hours of starting over at ground zero every time. I can't afford that so for now I'm trying to make it pleasant enough to where I can work on the next step. Because the LB's from her are typically so frequent that we literally don't speak unless she's insulting me, I'm letting her know politely about each one about every other LB. This may not be the right way, but for now I need some momentum and if I call her on each LB, then it will inevitably lead to so much irritation that we'll never get anywhere.
I did call to plan a date night with babysitters and everything today. It was a weeknight date which she's never had a problem with, but she shut it down and pushed it off to a weekend. Instead of getting upset and looking at it as yet another push off, I took a deep breath and said, sure! A date on Friday is more important than nothing, in fact it is great despite her intentions.
Today was pretty pleasant all day. I'm just letting off the gas and giving her some space and letting things happen a bit more. I definitely think some of my own stress has creeped in her a bit. I have no life. I have friends, but none that I do anything with anymore. If we hang out it is always when our families and kids all get together. On the flip side my wife has a dozen friends she does stuff with. this is my mistake and I'm gonna make sure I call up some buddies and get some outlets as well. The only buddy I really can talk to about this now is getting a divorce so I don't think he's the best for advice at this point!
Thanks for everything I'm learning a lot and am in a good place tonight, I plan on it lasting but don't hesitate to slap me around if need be, ok?
Just be sure that you schedule your 15 hours with your wife FIRST.
Just an idea here, to disarm her insults/complaints: she says something snarky, and you respond with a smile, an "I love you. I'll work on that," and an affectionate gesture like squeezing her hand or kissing it. Then go work on it! I don't know what she's saying. Of course, if she's just viciously tossing out names, an "Ouch," is quite effective. Just "Ouch" and walk away.
But if it's something like, "Can't you take out the trash???" or "Why do I have to do everything around here???" or even "You don't know anything about Dostoevsky!", a smile and an ILU and a promise to work on it followed by action will be incredibly effective. With an added bonus of confusing the heck out of her if she's accustomed to you being her sparring partner.
Definitely don't turn to divorced/divorcing people IRL for advice. My H was in the habit of talking to single people, cheaters, and divorced people for marital advice. BIG mistake. Of course, the folks on here are better educated on MB than your regular run-of-the-mill IRL folk, even if they are divorced or former cheaters, so give them an ear.
A great piece of advice I heard in church was to only seek advice from people who already are where you want to be.
Just be sure that you schedule your 15 hours with your wife FIRST.
Just an idea here, to disarm her insults/complaints: she says something snarky, and you respond with a smile, an "I love you. I'll work on that," and an affectionate gesture like squeezing her hand or kissing it. Then go work on it! I don't know what she's saying. Of course, if she's just viciously tossing out names, an "Ouch," is quite effective. Just "Ouch" and walk away.
But if it's something like, "Can't you take out the trash???" or "Why do I have to do everything around here???" or even "You don't know anything about Dostoevsky!", a smile and an ILU and a promise to work on it followed by action will be incredibly effective. With an added bonus of confusing the heck out of her if she's accustomed to you being her sparring partner.
Definitely don't turn to divorced/divorcing people IRL for advice. My H was in the habit of talking to single people, cheaters, and divorced people for marital advice. BIG mistake. Of course, the folks on here are better educated on MB than your regular run-of-the-mill IRL folk, even if they are divorced or former cheaters, so give them an ear.
A great piece of advice I heard in church was to only seek advice from people who already are where you want to be.
Great advice! Yesterday was good all in all. This morning was pretty good, I made her coffee and put a note on there that said "you are appreciated". I got a "thanks for the coffee" from upstairs. She made one semi-snarky comment this morning about a bill that we owe that suggested that it was somehow my fault for some late charge that we incurred. It was something really small so I just let it go and the rest of the morning was ok. I called her friend this morning to see if she was free to come pick up my wife one night this week to get out of the house away from the kids and relax for a couple hours. Hopefully she'll appreciate that. I know that I need to get her time with me but for now she is just so tired and not in a place where she wants to even do that thus far. I can't force her to spend time with me right so I'm gonna have to take what I can get. The 15 hours a week rule is pretty challenging with a 4 month old baby needless to say.
Sorry I havent been around in a while .. been spending my much needed UA time with my wife lately in the evenings ... and works been busy, so I havent had a chance to get on here much.
Wow Hilltopper your sure stepping up to the plate! Your getting some great advice from some of the other vet posters. Looks good on you that your taking initiative and focusing on being the hubby your wife wants you to be and not letting your wifes negativity get to you too much. I know sometimes it can be frusterating .. but your doing all the right things. Your wifes love bank is most likely still in the red .. but as you keep filling it up she will eventually begin to respond to you in a much better manner as it approaches the neutral zone .. and then into the GREEN zone!
Keep it up!
Sorry I havent been around in a while .. been spending my much needed UA time with my wife lately in the evenings ... and works been busy, so I havent had a chance to get on here much.
Wow Hilltopper your sure stepping up to the plate! Your getting some great advice from some of the other vet posters. Looks good on you that your taking initiative and focusing on being the hubby your wife wants you to be and not letting your wifes negativity get to you too much. I know sometimes it can be frusterating .. but your doing all the right things. Your wifes love bank is most likely still in the red .. but as you keep filling it up she will eventually begin to respond to you in a much better manner as it approaches the neutral zone .. and then into the GREEN zone!
TY sir! Yes it is frustrating, but I WILL NOT blow up or fight with her despite her best efforts to make that happen. Its almost like if I let it get to me and fight then she is "off the hook" so to speak. I don't want her to be off the hook, I want her to see what I'm trying to be and have no excuse but to return the favor. I still see her reaction to many of the nice things I do such as the note I wrote her with her coffee as being short and not appreciative. I let her know the other day that these things are not with strings attached or alterior motives. Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Keep it up!
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it
which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine?
Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.
I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well.
Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.
Recreational inventoy link -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.htmlDo you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about?
Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.
She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.
She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.
SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.
So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.
p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine?
Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.
I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well.
Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.
Recreational inventoy link -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.htmlDo you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about?
Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.
She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.
She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.
SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.
So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.
p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!
Thanks for the great news from your marriage, hopefully that is me months from now or sooner. To answer your question about my wife and I doing fun stuff together, she kind of pushes it away to be honest. I was trying to arrange for babysitters during the week for us to go out but she kind of shut it down as too much of a pain with the kids, school, etc. I don't automatically assume that this is because of me, I think a lot of it has to do with dealing with two kids and an infant and she's just tired. In fact a lot of this has to do with the birth of our third child. It kind of made it boil over as the little EN's I might have been getting were completely shutout as that attention was thrown to the baby. I guess I woke up one day thinking to myself, what has this become? We have no marriage whatsoever. The fighting started getting worse because I was demanding change and it was the absolute wrong time to do so with a new baby on our hands. All of it makes sense I guess and although I'm still very, very unhappy and unfulfilled at least I'm better prepared and have a plan in place. My wife still isn't reading LB yet, she has twice so far so maybe two chapters so the advice of suggesting that we do it together keeps getting pushed away so I'm backing off just a tad and am focusing on zero LB's which is very, very hard. I get unhappy, I stew about stuff, then I get silent, she knows it, then I tell her how I'm not getting this or that or that she hurt be, etc. I hugged her this morning cause I wanted to, she dropped her arms to the side and didn't hug me back(It's been this way as long as I can remember). I told her, "it would be great if you could hug me back when I hug you" and left it at that. Normally I would press her on it and come to conclusions about how she is feeling, why she does it, etc. I have a habit of getting in her head and she gets pissed deservedly so. The truth is it doesn't matter why she doesn't hug me back, it only matters that I express this form of affection as an important EN for me politely and respectfully. I have a hunch we'll get somewhere, but the patience side of me struggles after about 48 hours which is how long its been since our last big fight. I'm gonna be a good boy and be nice and avoid the LB's all day today and tonight. I'll check in later!
So I snooped on my wife's cell phone bill to see if there was anything concerning to me in terms of some kind of EA or other. I haven't found anything, but while looking at her statement I noticed something that concerned me big time. Yesterday she spent a total of 2.46 hours on the phone with various friends. The day before was a modest 1.7 hours of talk time. This doesn't include text time which happens all day as well. I've known for years my wife likes to talk and many women I know do in general. Should or could this be a red flag of sorts about her seeking others to fulfill her EN's? Do any of you women in this forum spend 2+ hours a day on the phone if not for work purposes? I need to get good at meeting her EN's, really good. I have no confidence in this area. She sent me her list and I sent her mine. She is not meeting any of mine as of yet and although I'm not ok with that, I just have to take the lead and rise above it. Her list is SO overwhelming to me I just don't know where to start. She mentioned Romance as a part of her Affection EN. I'm very affectionate in general physically, but I guess not any other way and I know this. I'm having a hard time not feeling stupid when it comes to this. What I'd really like to do is tackle romance and affection first and foremost before moving on to the rest, but I will be aware of them the other EN's as not to cause a LB. Help me be romantic! Here is a quote of her EN for Affection so you can read it for yourselves and come up with some suggestions for me:
"Affection: Where is the romance? Hmm I don't think you were even romantic when we dated and it's never really been your strong point. I'm not talking about flowers. I'm talking about follow through with a sweet idea, make a bath for me, a note, set up massages for us. Have the kids make me something and frame it. The most unromantic thing is I just have to have my needs met no matter what today, I don't care what else happens. Every girl likes a little romance or creativeness."
So I've done two baths, and three notes of late. I bought her some lotto tickets a couple times cause she digs that stuff. I ordered some new underwear from Victoria's Secret which she wears. I want to keep being thoughtful, insightful, and unique if at all possible. I definitely don't want to be cheesy! Do I feel stupid about the romance thing because of my own insecurities or lack of confidence? How do I get past that?
The simplest thing to do would be to ask her for more specifics on romance. The better thing to do would be to pay attention. The sneaky thing to do would be to VR her conversations with her friends.
Whatever she ranked as her #1 EN is where you need to start.
Have you filled out the LBQ?
The simplest thing to do would be to ask her for more specifics on romance. The better thing to do would be to pay attention. The sneaky thing to do would be to VR her conversations with her friends.
Whatever she ranked as her #1 EN is where you need to start.
Have you filled out the LBQ?
Have I or have both of us? I have she has not, like I mentioned before between the infant and her being disgusted with our marriage she's been very hesitant and standoffish about this whole thing. I'm not sure what you mean about VR(voice record?) her conversations with her friends. To find out about romance or to find out if she is fulfilling her EN's with her friends first?
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine?
Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.
I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well.
Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.
Recreational inventoy link -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.htmlDo you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about?
Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.
She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.
She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.
SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.
So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.
p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!
I read a consistently theme in here which is the use of the word "we" as it pertains to reading the books, working the program, etc. I'd love there to be a "we" in all of this and there might be one day but for now I think I am so far in the negative in terms of her LB that I'm just not gonna get that commitment like I want it. Things are pleasant the last two days, but the workbook during our last fight was thrown to the ground by her. I won't take too much offense to it. I think it has more to do with me pressing too much and "teaching" her about Dr H's program which cause her, not an outright rejection of the principles, you know? I've gotta get out of the red and into the green before I can push her to dive into this with me. I would love to do the 15 hours with her but I don't think she wants to with me. This is hurtful. If anyone can think of some other ways to get her more likely to read the books I'm all ears.
I'll work on that. Good day yesterday one thing bothered me, she said I love you, I sat down next to her put my hand on her leg and gave it a squeeze, she said take your hand off my fat so I did. Does that sound like "don't touch me" or "I'm a little insecure after having baby?"
Insecurity. Be more sensitive to this and touch non-jiggly parts, like shoulders (especially where they meet the neck--that may be just me but I love that) and dish out verbal compliments on other parts to build her confidence for touching later. "Your legs look really good in those shorts." Let her catch you checking out her rear-end in an approving way. Come up behind her and run your finger down her spine and stop just above her bum. If you come up behind her to give her hug, try to embrace in the skinniest part--just below the breast. If she's sitting with her feet up, run your finger down the curve of her foot, unless she's really ticklish.
I could just ask her flat out and let the cards fall as they may! I guess I won't know if I try. I've been preaching so much however that she's tired of it, probably feels guilty maybe? I'm buying a little time in just avoiding LB's right now. This is day four so far and it feels good. My wife doesn't like to be rushed on anything in life, going somewhere, getting ready, deciding things, etc. I think I'll avoid 100% of all LB's the rest of this week and then casually almost nonchalantly suggest a call. Would this be a joint call or just a call with Steve and my wife? I guess I'm not clear on that.
Insecurity. Be more sensitive to this and touch non-jiggly parts, like shoulders (especially where they meet the neck--that may be just me but I love that) and dish out verbal compliments on other parts to build her confidence for touching later. "Your legs look really good in those shorts." Let her catch you checking out her rear-end in an approving way. Come up behind her and run your finger down her spine and stop just above her bum. If you come up behind her to give her hug, try to embrace in the skinniest part--just below the breast. If she's sitting with her feet up, run your finger down the curve of her foot, unless she's really ticklish.
I love my wife's body, it is great, she is just hard on herself. She has a great bum and she knows exactly to a tee how I feel about it. Compliments on how she looks are fairly common coming from me but they don't always have a good effect. I think my wife at this time thinks that any effort of any kind to fill a need, make a compliment, or touch her in anyway has but one motivation from me, sex. Believe me I'm dying to have sex with my wife, but most of all I want to feel loved by her and affection has a lot to do with that feeling for me at least. What I have learned here and from experience is that I can't try hard for 48 hours and get what I want out of this. That is my nature and that is how I handle things in my company, which is immediately. This is a relationship and far different from that strategy. In my mind I believe that consistency is key here so she knows that I will just compliment her, buy her a little something, hug her, kiss her, and make an obvious attempt at romance or one of her EN's because I want to make her happy, not because all I want is sex. There is no desire for sex and every time I think a good evening might turn into something she always rolls over and falls asleep. I don't even get a "maybe tomorrow night" courtesy comment brush off anymore. I don't ask anymore because it makes it worse.
Hill, in my marriage, getting an enthusiastic yes to sex often meant it was preceded by "Good morning" instead of "Good night", kwim? I don't have babies anymore, but I'm still beat by the end of the day. Perhaps a time-of-day adjustment would help your approach?
Hill, Get your wife some MACA ROOT! After I got my wife to try it (takes a few days to work, aprox 5 days actually) she will not be without it now. Absolutlely LOVES it. I take it too. Its a super food and whats called an Adaptogen. Do some research on it .. its very effective and DEF does all it says it does.
Heres what it did to my wife that i DEF noticed. She could attest to it if she posted. And yes she was very reluctant at first and skeptical but it surprised her.
1. First it totally helped her energy levels.
2. It reduced her stress by alot
3. It increased her libido a good fair bit.
4. It has made her mood during PMS weeks alot more tolerable.
Heres is the negative that she mentioned and so far only 1 thing.
1. Makes her period a fair bit heavier as the product claims to increase fertility so it takes a few days longer for her period to come than she used to.
Here is some links to do some reading on it...
www.macaroot.comwww.macatalk.comwww.macasex.comAlso check the wiki on it ... it has a great write up on it.
MNG
p.s. for me .. Maca root has decreased my recovery time when i work out. and it has lowered my stress levels .. and lowered my sex drive a bit so im not so ancy if its been a few days. Its a natural hormone balancer. It does NOT add horomones to your system .. but it allows your system to rebalance itself so if some of your endrocine system is exausted (such as child birth etc) it gives the proper nutrients to all your glands and allows them to produce the proper amount again. Or if your over producing it will allow it to cut back. etc.
p.s.s If you do descided to get it .. get it in capsule form ... NOT the powder form. The capsule form has all the starches removed.
Lol. Mr. Maca!
So, gave in, did some academic search;
Lepidium meyenii (Maca) is a cultivated root belonging to the brassica family
used in the Andean region for its supposed aphrodisiac properties. We carried
out a double-blind clinical trial on 50 Caucasian men affected by mild erectile
dysfunction (ED), randomised to treatment with Maca dry extract, 2400 mg,
or placebo. The treatment effect on ED and subjective well-being was tested
administrating before and after 12 weeks the International Index of Erectile
Function (IIEF-5) and the Satisfaction Profile (SAT-P). After 12 weeks of treatment,
both Maca- and placebo-treated patients experienced a significant
increase in IIEF-5 score (P < 0.05 for both). However, patients taking Maca
experienced a more significant increase than those taking placebo (1.6 � 1.1
versus 0.5 � 0.6, P < 0.001). Both Maca- and placebo-treated subjects experienced
a significant improvement in psychological performance-related SAT-P
score, but the Maca group higher than that of placebo group (+9 � 6 versus
+6 � 5, P < 0.05). However, only Maca-treated patients experienced a significant
improvement in physical and social performance-related SAT-P score
compared with the baseline (+7 � 6 and +7 � 6, both P < 0.05). In conclusion,
our data support a small but significant effect of Maca supplementation
on subjective perception of general and sexual well-being in adult patients with
mild ED.
Zenico, T. T., Cicero, A. G., Valmorri, L. L., Mercuriali, M. M., & Bercovich, E. E. (2009). Subjective effects of Lepidium meyenii (Maca) extract on well-being and sexual performances in patients with mild erectile dysfunction: a randomised, double-blind clinical trial. Andrologia, 41(2), 95-99. doi:10.1111/j.1439-0272.2008.00892.x
We sought to determine whether maca, a Peruvian plant, is effective for selective-serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)-induced sexual dysfunction. We conducted a double-blind, randomized, parallel group dose-finding pilot study comparing a low-dose (1.5 g/day) to a high-dose (3.0 g/day) maca regimen in 20 remitted depressed outpatients (mean age 36+/-13 years; 17 women) with SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. The Arizona Sexual Experience Scale (ASEX) and the Massachusetts General Hospital Sexual Function Questionnaire (MGH-SFQ) were used to measure sexual dysfunction. Ten subjects completed the study, and 16 subjects (9 on 3.0 g/day; 7 on 1.5 g/day) were eligible for intent-to-treat (ITT) analyses on the basis of having had at least one postbaseline visit. ITT subjects on 3.0 g/day maca had a significant improvement in ASEX (from 22.8+/-3.8 to 16.9+/-6.2; z=-2.20, P=0.028) and in MGH-SFQ scores (from 24.1+/-1.9 to 17.0+/-5.7; z=-2.39, P=0.017), but subjects on 1.5 g/day maca did not. Libido improved significantly (P<0.05) for the ITT and completer groups based on ASEX item #1, but not by dosing groups. Maca was well tolerated. Maca root may alleviate SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction, and there may be a dose-related effect. Maca may also have a beneficial effect on libido.
Dording, C., Fisher, L., Papakostas, G., Farabaugh, A., Sonawalla, S., Fava, M., & Mischoulon, D. (2008). A double-blind, randomized, pilot dose-finding study of maca root (L. meyenii) for the management of SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. CNS Neuroscience & Therapeutics, 14(3), 182-191. Retrieved from EBSCOhost.
Those are from peer-reviewed journals.
NOW my curiosity may be piqued.
Hill, in my marriage, getting an enthusiastic yes to sex often meant it was preceded by "Good morning" instead of "Good night", kwim? I don't have babies anymore, but I'm still beat by the end of the day. Perhaps a time-of-day adjustment would help your approach?
Morning sex hasn't happened since we were dating. She doesn't feel like it ever. I'm one horny guy, probably more so cause I never get any. I'd do it anytime anywhere, but my wife is more cautious. Maybe it is a hormone thing or low libido and I'm being too hard on myself and her? I'll take a look at Maca root, can you buy it at the drugstore?
I'll take a look at Maca root, can you buy it at the drugstore?
Any health food store.
I'm one horny guy, probably more so cause I never get any.
Bingo!
And the level of satisfaction achieved when you do also contributes!
LoL ... I cant help it. It had such a dramatic effect on my wife that I have to tell everyone about it.
Withholding sex is intentional no?
I want to understand sex in the eyes of both men and women. I must fess up, SF is right up there with Affection to me in terms of EN's. My wife as you know makes excuses and the sex one is pretty bad. I thought about it yet again after being turned down last night. She is intentionally withholding sex from me right? This isn't like a bad habit or not being an affectionate person in general right? She is making a conscious decision each and every day not to have sex with me. SF is an emotional need for me that speaks volumes about who the other person feels about me and loves me. After being turned down last night I expressed myself about it the best way I knew how without trying to make a SD. I said, "if another week goes by and the excuse about sex continues, I'll know that it isn't that your tummy hurts or that you're just tired any longer." She is running this morning, she wasn't too tired for that right? I think being SF would allow a lot of things to fall into place. By the way, we snuggled for 2 mins before bed which was quite nice. How she approached it wasn't though. It was a version of the "hop on and be quick" with sex. She said, "Ok hurry up I'm tired you got your two minutes of snuggle time." So we curled up and the body to body connection felt great to me. Then she rolled over and said ok i'm going to sleep. So I rolled over too, then I hear her checking her facebook account, then sending a text back to her friend about running tomorrow morning. I said, "I thought you were tired?" She said, "I am, geez your annoying."
In other news, its been pretty good. We got into it at first on Friday morning but talked much more than fought. I expressed my feelings much better and we learned more about the other. Its kind of like, "who is this person I'm married to?" I expressed frustration that I was just about perfect all week and although things were pleasant for the most part she's still reluctant to work as hard at this as I am. She admitted both things to me. She simply said, "I'm not you ok? I can't shift gears and be a different person tomorrow like you can." This is true I have the ability to make a decision, come up with a plan, and execute that plan almost immediately. Things are much more convoluted I suppose for my wife. She could tell I was annoyed this morning and I am. I'm watching baby at 5 in the morning while she goes running with her friend. I don't mind the need for bonding with her friends and we did spend time last night together watching a movie on the couch last night. It is kind of more of a priorities thing. My priority is her and getting our marriage back on track, I make no bones about it and she knows that. She says she wants things better, but she still has time for a ton of activities that don't involve me. I'm not a jealous person but I suppose this is either IB, or me just not being a person who can fulfill her recreational companionship needs. I got bad knees I can't run and we have 3 children so even if I could it would be tough. What I struggle with this morning is being completely honest with how I feel so often. Isn't there a fine line about shutting up here and there and choosing your battles?
Be honest with her. "I feel unimportant because you won't have sex with your husband because you are tired. However you can stay up and check your facebook and then get up early the next day to go running with your friend. And I did not sign up for a sexless marriage."
I'm just now having my morning coffee so I can't word it correctly but without DJing her you need to let her know that it is not okay to not take your needs as valid and try to meet them just because they are not her needs.
A lot of people try and meet the other persons needs that they think they should have. For example, a husband might lavish his wife with gifts. However she wants some communication from him. If he doesn�t spend some time verbally connecting with her, he could buy her a boat and it wouldn�t fill her #1 EN and he�s spinning a lot of wheels. And he�s prob. Fulfilling the ENs that he wants met rather than what she wants. Or he�s just stabbing at what he thinks she wants (I mean girls like gifts, right???). But then all we�re doing is throwing rocks at a target with our eyes closed and hoping we hit it.
After awhile of not getting our needs met, we get irritated and resentful. We feel neglected. We then want to stop doing for the other person.
You should ask your wife to post on here.
[censored] I think I messed up. My wife went to run this morning early, I go upstairs to do laundry and notice my wife's underwear on the ground. She changed her underwear before going on a run? This is bizarre so I sent her a text about it. She got home and I'm feeling zero trust at this point so I told her that I'm not sure I trust her because she gives me no reason to. She freaked out, dropped an f-bomb in front of my kids and ran upstairs. I pursued her, she said don't talk to me, is freaking out, hopped in the car and drove away.
It was a version of the "hop on and be quick" with sex. She said, "Ok hurry up I'm tired you got your two minutes of snuggle time."
This would insult me. She's giving you crumbs and you're taking them. Don't take the crumbs; a spouse deserves better. Let her know that you feel insulted by her 'offering' you two minutes.
She simply said, "I'm not you ok? I can't shift gears and be a different person tomorrow like you can."
This is simply refusing to work on herself and coping out. Be respectful but let her know this is just an excuse.
I'm watching baby at 5 in the morning while she goes running with her friend.
So don�t do this. It is not a need for to spend time with her friends away when she isn�t meeting any or very little UA time. The next time she wants to go for a run with her friend(s) and leave you with the kids, well, you have something else to do.
It's time for you to put a keylogger on the computer and put some recording software on her phone.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.
Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?
Well, good luck to you then.
And many of us on here haven't had infidelity just not great marriages that we have used MB to make them great marriages. I haven't had infidelity in my current marriage and at one point was dealing with a lot of the same issues you are. Not anymore.
Regardless if you think there's infidelity or not, you're going to get resentful about your needs not being met and it's going to poison the marriage. But that's up to you if you keep allowing yourself to be a doormat. A doormat=she basically does what she wants, says what she wants, and dismisses how you feel or what you need and you support it while you're just meeting her needs.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.
Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?
Um...
Who
told you to march up to her and tell her "I don't trust you!"
?
Really?
Anyone?
Did anyone here tell you to confront her because you found out she changed her underwear before she went running?
?
No?
Anyone?
Nobody here told you to puppy dog her, and confront her at every turn. That is what you decided to do on your own. That was NOT the advice you were given.
Nor would it be to install spyware on her phone, and then question her about every phone call after you hear it, which is what you would seemingly do, and then blame the board for giving you the advice.
So begins the same post many posters previous to you have made; it just ain't happening guys, you are wrong!
Within the next year, it will be "I'm back guys, and you were RIGHT!"
Which is too bad, because there will be a lot of wasted time in between.
You told your wife that you don't trust her? Why would you do that? Telling your wife you don't trust her is a LB, even if it's true.
Steve Harley told me "Trust, but verify." Any spouse who has nothing to hide will welcome being checked up on. A spouse who has nothing to hide would react to being checked up on by saying "You think I'm cheating? What am I doing to make you think that? Here, my life is an open book. I am completely open. What can I do to reassure you? What can I do?"
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
Wonderful.
Welcome to MB. I'm so glad you are here as often (like in my situation) the MB principles and guidelines are much more easily adopted if BOTH spouses are here posting and learning together [Mrs. Wondering posts here too].
MB is WAY better than traditional marriage counseling.
Unless you choose to buy the book (which are really cheap if you get them on amazon used) MB is much cheaper than traditional marriage counseling.
You say you've wanted your husband to go to counseling for years which is an indication that he's been the reluctant spouse in the past...well, I don't think he's as reluctant about MB so this is really sounding like a win-win.
I'm so glad you aren't having an affair as rebuilding a marriage is impossible with a third person in it. You have such an advantage over many of us here that arrived after infidelity crushed our marriages. It may not be roses but it is a starting place.
Again...welcome and please share more of your side of the story.
Mr. Wondering
tgrace, what we have been feeding him is getting you two to try and implement meeting each others ENs and getting rid of the LBs and spending some alone time together.
If you would read through this thread you would see that he is trying to become a better husband but is becoming resentful in teh marriage because he feels neglected, disrespected, and unimportant.
It seems as though you don�t feel his needs are important because they are not your needs. Yes, sexual attention and affection are needs�and they are important because he cannot go anywhere and get these needs taken care of without cheating. Essentially he is starving and you have the chance to feed him.
Saying that he won�t get sex because of this and that is using sex as a tool and a weapon.
How would you feel if he said, �you know, because of the way you acted the last two days, I�m not watching the kids so you can go on your runs or exercise� You would feel hurt and upset.
The goal here is simple. You two meet each others needs, stop irritating each other (love busters), and get in some alone time. Yes I know you have young children�most of us do. And the alone time is doable.
And, yes, we are only getting one side of the story. It would be nice if you posted here so we could get the whole story.
I'm in love with my family but very unhappy in my relationship with my wife and feel a huge empty hole.
This is from your husband's first post. I presume the reverse is likely pretty true as well...that being, YOU, too, also love your family but feel unhappy in your relationship with your husband and a huge empty hole.
These are complaints. Complaints in marriage are GOOD.
MB can help you fix this problem. MB is NOT counseling. It won't delve into your family of origin issues or draw out your inner child. It won't merely focus on fixing your communications problems like so many other marital programs due such that you end up being able to communicate with each other at the divorce court. It is a simply behavior program. Dr. Harley studied the behaviors and patterns of married couples that enjoyed enduring loves that lasted a lifetime. He then prescribes we learn and adopt those behaviors over the course of ONE year and see what happens. The idea is that by undertaking the actions of a loving couple will result in the couple being a loving couple.
Feelings follow action.
It's really pretty simple.
Please click on and review the "basic concepts" link at teh top of this page and out on the main marriage builders website. Give MB the chance. It's so easy and your husband is already here and somewhat familiar with it so there is no time like the present to work on rebuilding your marriage. If not for yourself or your husband...do it for your kids who deserve better than you both are giving them right now.
Mr. Wondering
Also...with jobs and three kids (including an infant), MB is much easier to schedule. The forums and the main website with a plethora of FREE information are available 24/7.
Counseling once a week at some office is so 1985.
With MB you don't even need a babysitter.
Mr. W
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
How long ago did this happen? I'm betting this has been troubling him losing a close friend he felt very connected to. Once he was gone (moved away...not totally gone per se) I bet the "dark hole" he felt in your marriage expanded for him.
I love him very much and will make an effort.
Awesome. I think you should start your own thread. My wife and I both posted here and it's very difficult to share a thread. The forums aren't really set up to referee your disputes. We can help YOU and we can help him. It's peer coaching...NOT peer counseling. He will have people helping/coaching him and you will have other "online friends" coaching you. With both of you here a lot of context is added but again...we are not good referees. You have to let his feelings and perceptions be his and yours yours. Very tough to do. But doing MB
together made all the difference for Mrs. Wondering and I.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
Unfortunately, most people that show up here ARE dealing with affairs and infidelity and unless and until such extramarital relationships are over and done with...complete "no contact" there is no "how to fix things". Ruling out and/or ending affairs is STEP NUMBER ONE here at MB. Again...I can't express how happy we all are for YOU and Hilltopper that there is not an affair. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy. Lets move on from the snooping and underwear fiasco and get down to business. Start a new thread and share your thoughts and feelings about your marriage.
Mr. W
p.s. - Happy to see you want to try MB. Have you and Hilltopper printed off and completed the Emotional Needs survey yet?
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
Welcome to MB, tgrace.
It would be a good idea for you to start your own thread and stay off your husband's. Posting on his thread just leads to the two of you arguing on the thread!
Please remember that people have been trying to help your H with the problems he described in your marriage. Marriage Builders is not your enemy, and it is not causing the problems in your marriage.
No one said you shouldn't be able to go on a run. However, when the two of you are having issues scheduling quality/alone time together, that's where the emphasis should be.
And I totally get it. I do my running/exercising early in the morning before anyone is up or late at night after everyone has gone to sleep. But if my wife and I never or very rarely had any alone time together and I was out exercising, she would feel resentful and wonder why I can make time to exercise but I can't figure out time for the two of us to spend time together. The key here is to schedule time together for the two of you and then schedule everything else.
And we don't believe that this is one sided at all. Both spouses are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. He's just as accountable as you are for meeting needs, eliminating love busters, and scheduling the alone time.
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
This board operates on the story of the one present.
If both are present, they are encouraged not to post on each other's threads.
Jealousy is a natural response to a marriage that is in a state of crisis or threat, not a problem.
Transparency, and checking on spouses is defending a marriage, not "being jealous" or "being controlling."
"Giving each other space" creates independence, which is harmful to the marriage.
You are here now, so get this; this program is about creating romantic love and an interdependent relationship.
It is not just for couples who have or are experiencing infidelity, and in those cases, may help avoid it in the future.
You two are at the tip of the slippery slope which leads to marital meltdown, and "marriage counseling" won't do much to fix it. In fact, a lot of these "counselors" empower one spouse or another into the very behavior that will DESTROY a marriage every single time.
You won't find people here encouraging, or preaching tolerance for abusive or independent behavior.
You both have some work to do.
If she were enthusiastic about having sex with you, this would not be a problem. Women need 2 things to feel enthusiastic about sex, an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. What has happened in your marriage is that your relationship has been given such a low priority in your lives, that you have both fallen out of love. With her lovebusters and your comments about her body, I see that spiralling downwards.
The 2 main areas I would address immediately would be 1. lovebusters and 2. spending 20+ hours a week of UA time. If you can't or won't do that, then this will never work. Period. I know its hard with little children, but many folks here manage to get in their UA time with careful planning.
Nagging your wife about sex is not the solution, though. The solution is for both of you to fall in love again.
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement."
hereAnd I would strongly advise your wife to get on board here, HT. I don't think she understands that she is losing her husband. And if she doesn't do something to stop this bloodbath, she is headed to divorce.
Do you hear me, grace? You think you are getting away with mistreating your husband, but you are not. He is almost at the point where he has given up. When that happens, it is VERY HARD to turn it around. Do you want to be a single woman raising all those kids and holding down a 60 hr a week job? When a wife works this hard to push her husband away,
she will eventually succeed. Think on that..
Welcome to MB, grace. We are all happy to see you!
Hill, if you have concerns about the advice you've been given on this board, please do get with Steve Harley, both you and grace. My experience between the board and SH was quite different, mainly because SH heard both mine and my H's side. I highly recommend him.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here.
Hilltopper, I'll bet if you look closely you'll see that the issues in your M are no different than before. You're just starting to confront them with your wife.
I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls.
How do you figure this would cost you your marriage? My H can do all of that and more. He could follow me around with a tape recorder and I wouldn't care. He could hire a PI and I would drive slow enough to keep the PI close when he's tailing me. I couldn't care less if my H wanted to confirm that his trust in me is not misplaced. Do you think your wife can say the same things?
The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap.
No offense taken, Hilltopper. And yes, my experiences absolutely taint my consciousness now. Thank God! I'll never go back to the blind way things were before.
You sound exhausted and overwhelmed, Hilltopper. I'm sorry to hear that. Take a breather.
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
Welcome, tgrace - good to see you here! Would you consider starting your own thread? It's usually better for us to interact with the two of you separately. And you're not having an affair! Excellent! Would you say that you would be interested in learning about the tools on this site that will help you have a fantastic, passionate marriage?
I'll have to go back and re-read Hill's beginning posts, because I'm missing the part about you running. Is this an issue for him? Do you run alone? With a group? I ask because I am a runner, too. I run by myself whenever I can fit it in to our day. I just ran yesterday after work - my H had a work function, so I had a few hours before he got home. So I'm sure you'll appreciate that I threw those running shoes on the second I got in the door!
tgrace, I went back and scanned through about 6 pages of posts, and I'm not seeing where anyone thinks you're having an affair. Someone may have suggested it at some point, because unfortunately it is a common thing to see here. We'll ask that pretty early in as a way of tailoring our responses to the poster.
I DID see a lot of disconnect between the two of you - not a tough thing to resolve. I noticed that you said you would give MB a try - excellent! I would suggest you start your own thread and give us your marital story as you see it.
And by the way - we are volunteers here. You're going to see a lot of people encouraging you to post here and read Dr. Harley's books. This info is priceless and has saved and renewed countless marriages. We get nothing from this but a good feeling if we can pay it forward and help someone else do the same. Just letting you know that up front - some new posters assume we're employed by Marriage Builders and get paid to be here. Nope.
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it
which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.
This is the first post that I can find that mentions the possibility of infidelity in Hilltopper's marriage, and it is Hilltopper who mentions it. In his next post he goes to to say that he spied on her phone.
What did I miss? Hilltopper, why did you blast this board for causing the outburst you directed at your wife?
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it.
Thought you would find this interesting, Hilltopper:
"I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe." Dr. Willard Harley
And he talks in the infidelity video (on the home page here and on youtube) about a lady that was upset with him for making her paranoid after reading his book "His Needs Her Needs How to Affair-Proof Your Marriage"... He basically says that you SHOULD be worried about an affair because unless you are protecting against one (boundaries, transparency, having an integrated lifestlye, meeting each other's ENs, etc) you WILL be the victim of an affair.
If your M is not in a good place and you are lovebusting each other, now you can't really blame that on us, can you? You two need to own your actions and lovebusters and get them under control...not blame them on other people.
anyway, hope you two will stick around. I think the MB forums are awesome and could really help you! Good luck!
Well, good luck to you then.
And many of us on here haven't had infidelity just not great marriages that we have used MB to make them great marriages. I haven't had infidelity in my current marriage and at one point was dealing with a lot of the same issues you are. Not anymore.
Regardless if you think there's infidelity or not, you're going to get resentful about your needs not being met and it's going to poison the marriage. But that's up to you if you keep allowing yourself to be a doormat. A doormat=she basically does what she wants, says what she wants, and dismisses how you feel or what you need and you support it while you're just meeting her needs.
I agree and I am resentful of my needs not being met, my wife knows this and will no doubt read this which is fine. All I can do is speak from the heart and let my wife know how I feel. I thought a lot about replying to these posts and although I have a part of me that wants to "keep the peace" and not offend her, I know the right thing to do is just be honest and see if we can come to some agreements on what is important in meeting each other's EN's.
I don't think my wife treats me like a doormat and does whatever she wants, I do however think that I neglected her EN's for so long during the first part of our marriage that she had to find alternate sources to find them. That would be her friends, running, etc. She is running right now in fact, but she let me cuddle a bit with her this morning before she left so its a small victory. She gave up wanting to meet my EN's but I really think I started it!
Either way we know where we stand and although it will be a lot of work I am excited at the possibilities.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.
Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?
Um...
Who
told you to march up to her and tell her "I don't trust you!"
?
Really?
Anyone?
Did anyone here tell you to confront her because you found out she changed her underwear before she went running?
?
No?
Anyone?
Nobody here told you to puppy dog her, and confront her at every turn. That is what you decided to do on your own. That was NOT the advice you were given.
Nor would it be to install spyware on her phone, and then question her about every phone call after you hear it, which is what you would seemingly do, and then blame the board for giving you the advice.
So begins the same post many posters previous to you have made; it just ain't happening guys, you are wrong!
Within the next year, it will be "I'm back guys, and you were RIGHT!"
Which is too bad, because there will be a lot of wasted time in between.
I'm not gonna justify that response. Read the entire thread, you can see some very clear cut advice to "get snooping" among other things.
Hill, I can't find what you're talking about. Regardless, snooping on an emotionally distant spouse is never a BAD idea. You're just supposed to keep quiet about it instead of blowing up and accusing them of things you are merely suspicious about. I don't know how you approached it, but if my H asked me why I'd put on clean underwear, I'd simply tell him.
tgrace, what we have been feeding him is getting you two to try and implement meeting each others ENs and getting rid of the LBs and spending some alone time together.
If you would read through this thread you would see that he is trying to become a better husband but is becoming resentful in teh marriage because he feels neglected, disrespected, and unimportant.
It seems as though you don�t feel his needs are important because they are not your needs. Yes, sexual attention and affection are needs�and they are important because he cannot go anywhere and get these needs taken care of without cheating. Essentially he is starving and you have the chance to feed him.
Saying that he won�t get sex because of this and that is using sex as a tool and a weapon.
How would you feel if he said, �you know, because of the way you acted the last two days, I�m not watching the kids so you can go on your runs or exercise� You would feel hurt and upset.
The goal here is simple. You two meet each others needs, stop irritating each other (love busters), and get in some alone time. Yes I know you have young children�most of us do. And the alone time is doable.
And, yes, we are only getting one side of the story. It would be nice if you posted here so we could get the whole story.
Well said Kilted. I can't get my needs filled elsewhere and frankly I don't want to. I do feel neglected and I think not only are my needs no respected by my wife, I think there is a lot of society in general that feels husbands should feel wrong or guilty for wanting sex from their wives, no?
Alone time is tough with three kids but I'm committed to making this happen. My wife and I had a discussion about EN's getting met more quickly. I think there is a disconnect here. I see stopping LB's and meeting each other's EN's as something you do immediately because we both have the ability to. Feelings of deep love will come later of course, but for now we both can make a conscious choice to do what is necessary right? I'd like some input here from anyone about the subject.
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
My wife IS withholding sex from me, she said this was just a typo so I needed to point that out, not to have anyone take sides, but because it is relevant to the meeting of EN's that is all. On the flip side I've admitted to intentionally not meeting her EN's specifically because I felt an inequity which is just as wrong and selfish. I can see "running time" being your own time and I'm ok with it. What I'm not ok is with the argument from my wife that she "doesn't have time" to do this frequently. If she has time for running and a variety of other things then she has time for me, she just chooses not to. We discussed this last night as well and I think she knows how I feel about it. On top of that I've never had a problem with any of her activities and I will likely get behind her a lot more with them if and when many of my EN's are met, you know?
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
This is true, I debate well and my wife not so much. It is a big reason communication can be so tough. All she needs to know is that I don't ever mean to make her feel silly or bad about herself while discussing anything. She has said countless times that I make her feel stupid with my tone. I'll be honest I have a hard time seeing it, but the fact that she says it means its there one way or another. I can work on this more with immediate feedback when it happens I think.
No one said you shouldn't be able to go on a run. However, when the two of you are having issues scheduling quality/alone time together, that's where the emphasis should be.
And I totally get it. I do my running/exercising early in the morning before anyone is up or late at night after everyone has gone to sleep. But if my wife and I never or very rarely had any alone time together and I was out exercising, she would feel resentful and wonder why I can make time to exercise but I can't figure out time for the two of us to spend time together. The key here is to schedule time together for the two of you and then schedule everything else.
And we don't believe that this is one sided at all. Both spouses are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. He's just as accountable as you are for meeting needs, eliminating love busters, and scheduling the alone time.
Thanks I made this point earlier. Alone time is tough, but not if we make it a priority in our lives. If it becomes a priority it WILL happen.
I want to reread what you wrote. She LET YOU cuddle for a few minutes and now she's off running. This is what I call living off crumbs. This is her putting her selfish wants before the marriage.
I will say that I'm very fitness minded. I applaud those that keep fit and healthy. However, here is key time that you two could have that alone time talking, touching, cuddling, loving each other.
So she�s out running while you�re sitting wishing she�d spend more time with you. More than likely you�re going to hate it when she goes on those runs and it�s going to become a source of conflict. And what happens if you decide you want to do something at 5am for yourself? Then what? Then you two have a big fight about who gets to do what because you both feel entitled. I used to run off and play indoor soccer. However this was taking time away from my wife and from our time to connect together. When she brought up that she wished I�d stay home to hang out with her, I�d get mad. The problem here is I wasn�t looking to accommodate our marriage (POJA)�the marriage wasn�t a priority. I mean, I was just going to go and play an indoor game for an hour�what�s the big deal?! After I/we got on board with both of us looking at what we can do to improve the marriage, one of the things I had to do wasI change my indoor soccer playing time to really late at night on the nights she had been working long shifts and would be passed out and I�d be sitting on the couch doing nothing. So I changed my recreational activity time to one that didn�t take away from time for us.
Here�s what I would do tonight. Both of you tag team and get the kids in bed together (my wife usually bathes them while I clean up the after-supper kitchen mess). Then fill out the lovebusters sheets and discuss them together. Be honest with each other. Do not get mad at what the other person says�how they feel is how they feel. It is what it is; it isn�t right or wrong. The purpose is to stop doing things that irritate each other. But if one of you or both of you get mad about what makes the other person mad, it defeats everything. Then if you have time fill out the ENs stuff and discuss that. And finally schedule your 15-20 hours of alone time together.
The solution is for both of you to jump in this head first. I know you�ve heard it before but call Steve Harley at least for a couple sessions.
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
This board operates on the story of the one present.
If both are present, they are encouraged not to post on each other's threads.
Jealousy is a natural response to a marriage that is in a state of crisis or threat, not a problem.
Transparency, and checking on spouses is defending a marriage, not "being jealous" or "being controlling."
"Giving each other space" creates independence, which is harmful to the marriage.
You are here now, so get this; this program is about creating romantic love and an interdependent relationship.
It is not just for couples who have or are experiencing infidelity, and in those cases, may help avoid it in the future.
You two are at the tip of the slippery slope which leads to marital meltdown, and "marriage counseling" won't do much to fix it. In fact, a lot of these "counselors" empower one spouse or another into the very behavior that will DESTROY a marriage every single time.
You won't find people here encouraging, or preaching tolerance for abusive or independent behavior.
You both have some work to do.
Wow this might be tough to hear for my wife. Independent behavior can definitely harm a marriage, I never thought of it that way. I admit that my wife probably began doing other things in response to me not fulfilling her EN's during the first part of our marriage. Although her instincts tell her that she "needs" to do this stuff, I think the plan here is to minimize it and focus on getting some Undivided Attention with each other asap! In my book this means focus on us first and when appropriate and there is time left then run or whatever, not the other way around.
If she were enthusiastic about having sex with you, this would not be a problem. Women need 2 things to feel enthusiastic about sex, an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. What has happened in your marriage is that your relationship has been given such a low priority in your lives, that you have both fallen out of love. With her lovebusters and your comments about her body, I see that spiralling downwards.
The 2 main areas I would address immediately would be 1. lovebusters and 2. spending 20+ hours a week of UA time. If you can't or won't do that, then this will never work. Period. I know its hard with little children, but many folks here manage to get in their UA time with careful planning.
Nagging your wife about sex is not the solution, though. The solution is for both of you to fall in love again.
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement."
hereAnd I would strongly advise your wife to get on board here, HT. I don't think she understands that she is losing her husband. And if she doesn't do something to stop this bloodbath, she is headed to divorce.
Do you hear me, grace? You think you are getting away with mistreating your husband, but you are not. He is almost at the point where he has given up. When that happens, it is VERY HARD to turn it around. Do you want to be a single woman raising all those kids and holding down a 60 hr a week job? When a wife works this hard to push her husband away,
she will eventually succeed. Think on that..
Melody,
I'm not sure what comments about my wife's body you are referring to you. I can assure you this is not a problem, I think my wife and her body are incredibly sexy as do others! Its not a matter of opinion of my wife being attractive or not!
In regards to your comments about my wife getting away with mistreating me and stopping this bloodbath, that is friggin intense. This is not a "see I told you so moment" for me to point out to my wife. I just think it makes it that much more real to have an outside perspective on what is going on. I've given up many times already and I'm scared that one day I won't want to pony up again, in fact terrified. I don't think my wife is "working hard at pushing me away" is she? That doesn't make any sense, why in the world would she want to do that?
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here.
Hilltopper, I'll bet if you look closely you'll see that the issues in your M are no different than before. You're just starting to confront them with your wife.
I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls.
How do you figure this would cost you your marriage? My H can do all of that and more. He could follow me around with a tape recorder and I wouldn't care. He could hire a PI and I would drive slow enough to keep the PI close when he's tailing me. I couldn't care less if my H wanted to confirm that his trust in me is not misplaced. Do you think your wife can say the same things?
The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap.
No offense taken, Hilltopper. And yes, my experiences absolutely taint my consciousness now. Thank God! I'll never go back to the blind way things were before.
You sound exhausted and overwhelmed, Hilltopper. I'm sorry to hear that. Take a breather.
I agree with you actually now that I think about it. The problems are coming to a head because I'm forcing the issue. Yes it is uncomfortable for both of us but I don't think anything would get resolved had I not explored this all. As I've said before this doesn't make me less culpable in the marriage for where it is today and in fact doesn't really matter. We are here now and that is all that matters.
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it
which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.
This is the first post that I can find that mentions the possibility of infidelity in Hilltopper's marriage, and it is Hilltopper who mentions it. In his next post he goes to to say that he spied on her phone.
What did I miss? Hilltopper, why did you blast this board for causing the outburst you directed at your wife?
Yes you are missing something Sugar. I was confused by his comment about infidelity and thought he was referring to my situation when he was really referring to his own, that is all. I'm not blasting the board about the decisions I made all on my own to investigate infidelity at all, that was my doing. What I'm concerned about is a fairly quick jump from an unhappy marriage to a possible affair. You all have more experience than me, I took the advice, and checked it out. I think the jump to infidelity if nothing changes after a few months might be more appropriate is all.
I want to reread what you wrote. She LET YOU cuddle for a few minutes and now she's off running. This is what I call living off crumbs. This is her putting her selfish wants before the marriage.
I will say that I'm very fitness minded. I applaud those that keep fit and healthy. However, here is key time that you two could have that alone time talking, touching, cuddling, loving each other.
So she�s out running while you�re sitting wishing she�d spend more time with you. More than likely you�re going to hate it when she goes on those runs and it�s going to become a source of conflict. And what happens if you decide you want to do something at 5am for yourself? Then what? Then you two have a big fight about who gets to do what because you both feel entitled. I used to run off and play indoor soccer. However this was taking time away from my wife and from our time to connect together. When she brought up that she wished I�d stay home to hang out with her, I�d get mad. The problem here is I wasn�t looking to accommodate our marriage (POJA)�the marriage wasn�t a priority. I mean, I was just going to go and play an indoor game for an hour�what�s the big deal?! After I/we got on board with both of us looking at what we can do to improve the marriage, one of the things I had to do wasI change my indoor soccer playing time to really late at night on the nights she had been working long shifts and would be passed out and I�d be sitting on the couch doing nothing. So I changed my recreational activity time to one that didn�t take away from time for us.
Here�s what I would do tonight. Both of you tag team and get the kids in bed together (my wife usually bathes them while I clean up the after-supper kitchen mess). Then fill out the lovebusters sheets and discuss them together. Be honest with each other. Do not get mad at what the other person says�how they feel is how they feel. It is what it is; it isn�t right or wrong. The purpose is to stop doing things that irritate each other. But if one of you or both of you get mad about what makes the other person mad, it defeats everything. Then if you have time fill out the ENs stuff and discuss that. And finally schedule your 15-20 hours of alone time together.
The solution is for both of you to jump in this head first. I know you�ve heard it before but call Steve Harley at least for a couple sessions.
Ok maybe I was keeping the peace. My wife will likely reply with a "whats the big deal" so be it. I want to make an immediate change in our lives to spend as much time together as possible period.
Ok maybe I was keeping the peace. My wife will likely reply with a "whats the big deal" so be it. I want to make an immediate change in our lives to spend as much time together as possible period.
Women don't respect men that just keep the peace. You need to let her know exactly how unhappy you are. That you want a better marriage...a great marriage. That you want to become a great husband.
Let her read through the rest of this thread. Then ask her to create her own thread. It really helps when we have both the husband and hte wife posting seperately.
In regards to your comments about my wife getting away with mistreating me and stopping this bloodbath, that is friggin intense. This is not a "see I told you so moment" for me to point out to my wife. I just think it makes it that much more real to have an outside perspective on what is going on. I've given up many times already and I'm scared that one day I won't want to pony up again, in fact terrified. I don't think my wife is "working hard at pushing me away" is she? That doesn't make any sense, why in the world would she want to do that?
Are you saying that her lovebusters along with the fighting is drawing you CLOSER? How would you characterize it?
She's prob not intentionally pushing you away. But her continued behaviors and actions are pushing you away.
It'd be good if she posted her because we'd see both sides of the fence.
Ok maybe I was keeping the peace. My wife will likely reply with a "whats the big deal" so be it. I want to make an immediate change in our lives to spend as much time together as possible period.
Women don't respect men that just keep the peace. You need to let her know exactly how unhappy you are. That you want a better marriage...a great marriage. That you want to become a great husband.
Let her read through the rest of this thread. Then ask her to create her own thread. It really helps when we have both the husband and hte wife posting seperately.
Just told her now that I "stewed" at her running for 2 and 1/2 hours while I sat here with the kids. She told me "we'll spend time together then fine!" Hardly the attitude of someone that really wants to. She told me I was the cause of her not wanting to spend time with me. This is friggin bad news man, she displays behavior of not being will to do what this takes for one reason or another. Melody Lane is right, the way this is going she is gonna push me away until I leave her, she'll be in an apt with all three kids that I visit, etc. But hey, at least she won't have to deal with me wanting a better relationship, what a pain that is! What kind of a selfish jerk am I for wanting a better marriage? I'm gonna be honest at every point of this day and every other day. Its gonna be rough because I have issues with how she treats me pretty much all day. There is no concern for husband in this relationship at all. A couple of kisses and a peaceful day yesterday isn't enough for her to leave me with the kids for 2 1/2 hours this morning on a run. Its my fault for telling her that I thought she shouldn't go. Its also my fault for not telling her it was ok to go to bed cause she was tired and not read the workbook. I was honest with her just now and she looked at me like I was an alien. I told her I didn't care about anything else we do as long as we get to spend time together while the kids are all napping, reading this forum, talking, cuddling. Her attitude was clear, SHE DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH ME! She'll do it to keep the peace but unless I initiate or force the issue it simply won't happen. I hope she reads this and I hope she does her own thread, and I hope she takes this deadly serious because I'm not messing around anymore. She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
[She told me "we'll spend time together then fine!" Hardly the attitude of someone that really wants to. She told me I was the cause of her not wanting to spend time with me.
That is a good start! You can start by asking her what it would take to make you more enjoyable? Are you unpleasant to be with? Ask her what she would like to do the most when you are together. Ask her what you can do to make your time more enjoyable. This is the kind of open, honest communication that will help you both become more attractive to spend time with.
She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
Wow. Go look up SELFISH DEMANDS, Hill.
Then call Steve.
I have a question about the run: did you tell her before she went that you didn't want her to go? Or did you say nothing and then punish her when she got back?
She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
Wow. Go look up SELFISH DEMANDS, Hill.
Then call Steve.
I have a question about the run: did you tell her before she went that you didn't want her to go? Or did you say nothing and then punish her when she got back?
Punished later.
Well,
as I seem to be the only one who thinks to understand the wife's side, here goes: (my own very subjective opinion)
The wife is annoyed and irritated and doesn't feel her needs are being met. The husband: also annoyed and irritated and also feels his needs are not being met.
Hill, you remind me a bit of my husband (I know, subjectively)
You are obviously a person who thinks about things, and likes to analyze things, and you seem to be earnestly trying to understand her side as well. (which is good, but...)
On the other side, you seem to be telling your wife your take on things, and are telling her what she does wrong and what you are doing to improve things, while she isn't.
I know you are also aware of your own mistakes.
Your wife , on the other hand, seems to have zoned out, for whatever reason, may it be post-baby-stress (come on people, she has a 4-month old and on top of that a special needs kid), needs not met for a long time, broken nights, long-term stress, feeling the husband doesn't carry his weight, may it be true or not.
The sex thing:
I am going to point this out for you: l love sex. love it, love it love it, can't get enough of it. Cannot endure going without it for whatever time period. Period. Would love to do it 5 times a day and more, wherever, whenever, OK.
That's not the point. and I love my husband to bits. Cannot imagine a more perfect husband, honestly. And I never thought I would say something like this, but he is a person who likes to lecture. He can go on and on about things, and is always right, well, most of the time anyway and he is someeone who can see his own mistakes.
Well if we look at each other like 'that' as we often do, and go upstairs (or not) and he starts to lecture me, well I never thought I could be a person not to want to have sex, but it kills my mood. Really does. Instantly. And me being a person who is always in the mood. I have yet to refuse to have it, because I do not believe in that, but my enthousiasm needs time to bild up again. For me it maybe takes half an hour or a few minutes, or he is sorry, but now imagine I would not be such a sex freak......
Just hate to be lectured. Like he is my daddy, or teacher or something. Cannot stand it.
And eveything Hilltopper has said to this point, points out one thing. He is the lecturing type (subjective I know, forgive me when I am mistaken)
You cannot make a woman fall in love with you, by telling her what to feel, what to do, what she should have been doing all along and that she should not be feeling what she is feeling.
On top of that, from your responses, Hiltopper I get the impression, that your mood is a bit unstable at the moment. One moment you are full of hope, and everything is going in the right direction, and the other moment you want to quit marriagebuilding because it doesn't help.
Hold on a sec. You have a 4-month-old-baby too. You also have the broken nights and the stress and a stressed wife, as your wife has a stressed husband.
This will not work wonders whithin a week. Think long-term, and secondly, both of you need a break. It may not be possible now, but you have to have som other subject to talk about besides the marriage not going so smoothly at the moment.
Be realistic and if you are lecturing your wife, please stop it and let Steve H. lecture the both of you.
God bless, happyheart
Hey, Hill, ML is very right ... if you want a good marriage, if you want your wife to spend time with you, then you need to plan to work VERY hard to make that time enjoyable. You sound pretty sarcastic and frustrated here. I can empathize with frustration, and I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, too, but sarcasm and frustration are not attractive. I strongly encourage you to work on putting a lid on this stuff and focusing on what you can DO to make yourself enjoyable to spend time with. When you are enjoyable enough to spend time with, you probably won't have to demand that your wife spend time with you, because she will WANT to!
I do encourage you to keep tabs on your wife enough to rule out any sort of an affair. Odds are, she just wants to get away from you because she perceives you as a demanding, sarcastic person who is no fun to be around. But if she's got a close male acquaintance out there he will make it impossible for you to be attractive to her, ever, by comparison.
HOWEVER, do
NOT ever go confront your wife again about this without evidence, okay? NOBODY here will advise you to do this. This is just a way to become a jerk. And if you want to save your marriage, you are going to have to learn how to not be a jerk. IF you find evidence of an affair, please come back here and bring us what you have and ask for some help to figure out what to do, okay? Please rely on the good and helpful folks here instead of reacting to your emotions and rushing in without a plan and torpedoing your chances.
And tgrace, I know you may still be reading ... please start your own thread, okay? We know this isn't all on you and that your husband has a lot of work to do. He can be helped with that ... and you can do your part as well, but the first thing is probably going to be to make sure that you are open and transparent with him without fighting with him. Fights are absolutely detrimental to a marriage. (Ask me how I know.
) BOTH of you have some work to do to learn to eliminate fights, so I encourage both of you to stop spending time pointing fingers and start learning what you individually can do different to change the tenor in your marriage.
She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
Wow. Go look up SELFISH DEMANDS, Hill.
Then call Steve.
I have a question about the run: did you tell her before she went that you didn't want her to go? Or did you say nothing and then punish her when she got back?
Punished later.
Great honesty, Hill! Let me encourage you to go put your arms around your wife (if she'll let you) and apologize. Plan on having a talk about her runs LATER, for now just focus on apologizing for punishing her.
Yeah, Hill, that was really unfair for you to withhold your feelings about the run until after she'd done it. I can kinda understand--you don't want to keep her from enjoyment, and maybe you didn't even realize how much it would bother you until she was gone. Here's how you can deal with that:
Recognize that she didn't do it to punish you. She didn't even know you wanted her to stay home.
When you did decide to tell her that it bothered you, BE KIND. "i know you love to run and i love for you to do it. I want you to be happy. I was a little more funked out than I expected when you left this morning. Can we talk about adjusting your running schedule so that I'm happy with it, too? I was thinking if I had another hour of your attention before you left, I'd be happy to deal with the kids when they got up. And if I could get a chat over coffee when you get back, I'd spend the entire time looking forward to it, rather than funked out and grumpy."
Is that doable, Hill, for the future? Regardless of her response? You need to be loving toward her, otherwise all you will get is her defensiveness, and you will never know what her rational response is. Like markos, ask me how I know.
Why do I keep agreeing with CWMI? Now only if she'll be enthusiastic about that loud Hawaiian shirt :p
I do like the way she worded about your wife's jogging habits. That is the first step toward becoming skilled at POJA. Hopefully she'll agree to chop off an hour so y'all can have an hour together and she'll still get an hour and a half running time.
Come to think of it, how exactly far is she jogging in 2.5 hours? That's a ton of road time.
Why do I keep agreeing with CWMI? Now only if she'll be enthusiastic about that loud Hawaiian shirt :p
I'm quite enthusiastic about bold clothing! I am not your wife, though...so...I don't think it matters. :p
(psst...one of the gals from our community group once commented on how my bold colored clothing was too 'look at me!'...right before booting me for not wanting to particiapte in GNO at bars, lol.)
Total chaos after the run this morning. Not sure I'm a mind reader, but I was on the receiving end of punishment. Just had an hour talk which seemed to really help. Thank goodness my head hurts!
Just an update to say I'll be starting my own thread tomorrow.
Total chaos after the run this morning. Not sure I'm a mind reader, but I was on the receiving end of punishment. Just had an hour talk which seemed to really help. Thank goodness my head hurts!
Just an update to say I'll be starting my own thread tomorrow.
Please start that thread, grace. I'd like to reply as a fellow runner. I'll wait til you've put up your thread.
HIlltopper .. I just wanted to apologize if anything I said contributed to your feelings of craziness. I only offered you my opinion from my perspective on how I used marriage builders and what I did to win my wife back over. I also understand your frustrations towards your reluctant spouse. I gave examples and mentioned that this is not going to be a fast fix .. it took many years to get to here and it may take awhile to get back to the way you want things. I believe it was once said that this is a marathon, not a 50yard dash. I understand you have a 4 month old and a few other children .. and that is VERY taxing on your wife. So I understand that aswell and how that affects your wife .. she probably feels "touched out"
AFter reading your replies after my last post, especially after your frustrated blow up blaming post .. I began to wonder if what I had said had any value or impact at all.. I am kinda new to advice giving and can only provide you with my own point of view from my own experiences.
Vets: Thank you for saving this one ... I didnt even know how to respond at first, so I stayed away to think about it .. but you guys chimed in with all the right stuff ..so i am thankful of your awareness.
Hilltopper ... Its also great to see that your wife descided to post and is willing to start her own thread. Stay on track .. follow the MB plan. These hard times will eventually all be in the rearview mirror if you stay the course and follow the advice.
MNG
Well,
as I seem to be the only one who thinks to understand the wife's side, here goes: (my own very subjective opinion)
The wife is annoyed and irritated and doesn't feel her needs are being met. The husband: also annoyed and irritated and also feels his needs are not being met.
Hill, you remind me a bit of my husband (I know, subjectively)
You are obviously a person who thinks about things, and likes to analyze things, and you seem to be earnestly trying to understand her side as well. (which is good, but...)
On the other side, you seem to be telling your wife your take on things, and are telling her what she does wrong and what you are doing to improve things, while she isn't.
I know you are also aware of your own mistakes.
Your wife , on the other hand, seems to have zoned out, for whatever reason, may it be post-baby-stress (come on people, she has a 4-month old and on top of that a special needs kid), needs not met for a long time, broken nights, long-term stress, feeling the husband doesn't carry his weight, may it be true or not.
The sex thing:
I am going to point this out for you: l love sex. love it, love it love it, can't get enough of it. Cannot endure going without it for whatever time period. Period. Would love to do it 5 times a day and more, wherever, whenever, OK.
That's not the point. and I love my husband to bits. Cannot imagine a more perfect husband, honestly. And I never thought I would say something like this, but he is a person who likes to lecture. He can go on and on about things, and is always right, well, most of the time anyway and he is someeone who can see his own mistakes.
Well if we look at each other like 'that' as we often do, and go upstairs (or not) and he starts to lecture me, well I never thought I could be a person not to want to have sex, but it kills my mood. Really does. Instantly. And me being a person who is always in the mood. I have yet to refuse to have it, because I do not believe in that, but my enthousiasm needs time to bild up again. For me it maybe takes half an hour or a few minutes, or he is sorry, but now imagine I would not be such a sex freak......
Just hate to be lectured. Like he is my daddy, or teacher or something. Cannot stand it.
And eveything Hilltopper has said to this point, points out one thing. He is the lecturing type (subjective I know, forgive me when I am mistaken)
You cannot make a woman fall in love with you, by telling her what to feel, what to do, what she should have been doing all along and that she should not be feeling what she is feeling.
On top of that, from your responses, Hiltopper I get the impression, that your mood is a bit unstable at the moment. One moment you are full of hope, and everything is going in the right direction, and the other moment you want to quit marriagebuilding because it doesn't help.
Hold on a sec. You have a 4-month-old-baby too. You also have the broken nights and the stress and a stressed wife, as your wife has a stressed husband.
This will not work wonders whithin a week. Think long-term, and secondly, both of you need a break. It may not be possible now, but you have to have som other subject to talk about besides the marriage not going so smoothly at the moment.
Be realistic and if you are lecturing your wife, please stop it and let Steve H. lecture the both of you.
God bless, happyheart
I do lecture, I fully admit that, big fault and LB of mine. I guess I get so frustrated at a lack of progress that I force the issue incorrectly. I know I can't lecture her into love. My mood unstable, how'd you guess?
Its more than unstable, I'm a wreck. I go from hope to despair almost hourly. I'm gonna make an attempt to stop the lecturing stuff as I know it doesn't make this go any quicker.
No attempting. You just do it. If lecturing her is an LB (and to whom wouldn't it be) then stop.
Remember it's taken you two years to get to this state of conflict. It's going to take awhile to get out of it.
Stop the LBing completely. If your boat has holes, you're still sinking unless you plug them up. The LBs cause holes for her love towards you to sink out.
Go to your wife tonight and ask her nicely if you two can sit down and fill out the LB and EN sheet and talk about it. Tell her you're sorry for pushing things so hard, you just want the marriage to be great but you've been going about it the wrong way. Don't lecture her why she should be or why you two should be doing X and Y. Let her know you want to be a better husband, the husband she deserves but the only way you can do that is for her to tell you and show you what she needs/wants from you/from the marriage.
This is not a race; it's a journey.
HIlltopper .. I just wanted to apologize if anything I said contributed to your feelings of craziness. I only offered you my opinion from my perspective on how I used marriage builders and what I did to win my wife back over. I also understand your frustrations towards your reluctant spouse. I gave examples and mentioned that this is not going to be a fast fix .. it took many years to get to here and it may take awhile to get back to the way you want things. I believe it was once said that this is a marathon, not a 50yard dash. I understand you have a 4 month old and a few other children .. and that is VERY taxing on your wife. So I understand that aswell and how that affects your wife .. she probably feels "touched out"
AFter reading your replies after my last post, especially after your frustrated blow up blaming post .. I began to wonder if what I had said had any value or impact at all.. I am kinda new to advice giving and can only provide you with my own point of view from my own experiences.
Vets: Thank you for saving this one ... I didnt even know how to respond at first, so I stayed away to think about it .. but you guys chimed in with all the right stuff ..so i am thankful of your awareness.
Hilltopper ... Its also great to see that your wife descided to post and is willing to start her own thread. Stay on track .. follow the MB plan. These hard times will eventually all be in the rearview mirror if you stay the course and follow the advice.
MNG
Thanks for the kind words. Can I ask you all something? Have you seen so many thousands of posts where one spouse swears about not cheating only to come crashing down down the road? About 20% of you won't let this infidelity thing go? It keeps coming back over and over. This is a recurring problem and is not allowing my wife and I to move forward to some degree. The "keep tabs on your wife" thing keeps coming back repeatedly and it bothers both of us tremendously. My wife said nothing is going on, she was horrifically destroyed for having me even consider it and as a result we can't get past it. I have no proof nor do I believe anything of the sort is going on, but many of you keep bringing it up. At this point I have to wonder why, do some of you not believe my wife at all, if so why? No sex? Is it something she said? As we sit here now, my wife has asked me to do whatever I need to do to make myself feel secure that nothing is going on. She appears to have nothing to hide, no fear of anyone "finding out" anything at all. Can we leave it at that? I want to get to feeling hopeful more than one hour at a time ok? I would appreciate if the suggestions focus on this goal from here on out. I love my wife, I don't think she is cheating at all.
No attempting. You just do it. If lecturing her is an LB (and to whom wouldn't it be) then stop.
Remember it's taken you two years to get to this state of conflict. It's going to take awhile to get out of it.
Stop the LBing completely. If your boat has holes, you're still sinking unless you plug them up. The LBs cause holes for her love towards you to sink out.
Go to your wife tonight and ask her nicely if you two can sit down and fill out the LB and EN sheet and talk about it. Tell her you're sorry for pushing things so hard, you just want the marriage to be great but you've been going about it the wrong way. Don't lecture her why she should be or why you two should be doing X and Y. Let her know you want to be a better husband, the husband she deserves but the only way you can do that is for her to tell you and show you what she needs/wants from you/from the marriage.
This is not a race; it's a journey.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
About 20% of you won't let this infidelity thing go? It keeps coming back over and over. This is a recurring problem and is not allowing my wife and I to move forward to some degree.
To be honest before you told us that she freaked out and said she hated you for "not trusting her", I don't think that many people said anything about any affair outside of just to double check...which is prudent advice given your independent lifestyles and given that A's happen in over 60% of M, which probably is lower than the true # considering that many affairs go undiscovered.
But then after you told us of her reaction, I think it created some more interest because Dr Harley says that getting angry and offended when being questioned is typically a smokescreen of a cheating spouse.
Regardless, the answer is for you two to be transparent and to open all areas of your lives to each other and start spending more time together. It wouldn't matter if 100 people on this board started telling me that my H was cheating on me, it wouldn't upset me and I would feel confident that that wasn't possible because we spend all of our free time together and I have access to all areas of his life.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
ps ~ Conversely, if my H accused me of cheating or told me he didn't trust me, I would go to whatever lengths to show him that wasn't the case for as long as it took.
But again, he would most likely feel pretty confident that that wasn't possible because our lifestyles are so integrated and has access to every area of my life.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.
Fact of the matter is, that if something doesn't change then the weakening of your marriage can lead to one or both of you falling into the trap of infidelity, or divorce.
I've been right where you are now, HT. And I didn't go looking for help, I just silently imploded.
It's not an easy thing to be prioritized at the bottom of our spouse's list of priorities. And the more we allow that to happen, the further down the list we can fall.
The sad truth of the matter is, that it is in the best interest of our children that we put our spouse first, so that they can be raised in a loving, supportive home.
The reason that your posts are causing fights is because you are taking these posts as an opportunity to educate each other.
KNOCK IT OFF.
If you can't handle implementing the concepts without using the advice of posters as fodder against each other, then go to individual phone coaching through the coaching center on this site.
Do not read each others threads, do not post on them. At this point you can hardly act like civilized human beings toward each other.
Each of you needs to understand that your threads are about
you, and not the other spouse.
Nice evening right now! My wife kissed me on the lips I enjoyed it very much!
Fight again! Just kidding, believe it or not we are sitting side by side playing a game on our iPhones together. It's coming together I think, hope.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.
Fact of the matter is, that if something doesn't change then the weakening of your marriage can lead to one or both of you falling into the trap of infidelity, or divorce.
I've been right where you are now, HT. And I didn't go looking for help, I just silently imploded.
It's not an easy thing to be prioritized at the bottom of our spouse's list of priorities. And the more we allow that to happen, the further down the list we can fall.
The sad truth of the matter is, that it is in the best interest of our children that we put our spouse first, so that they can be raised in a loving, supportive home.
The reason that your posts are causing fights is because you are taking these posts as an opportunity to educate each other.
KNOCK IT OFF.
If you can't handle implementing the concepts without using the advice of posters as fodder against each other, then go to individual phone coaching through the coaching center on this site.
Do not read each others threads, do not post on them. At this point you can hardly act like civilized human beings toward each other.
Each of you needs to understand that your threads are about
you, and not the other spouse.
Last night after talking we settled into a groove and spent some time on the couch together side by side. My wife displayed affection to me for the first time in a long time and I think we had a pretty good time. No sex afterwards but that doesn't bother me because the effort was there. What I learned after a pleasant evening and pleasant morning is that despite an effort to show me affection, my instincts tell me it may not continue and that scares me. In our discussion last night my wife had me read a paragraph out of the book about how meeting emotional needs, particularly sex is difficult if she doesn't feel like it. She doesn't feel like it because we fight all the time. Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.
If you both work, she will get past it. Telling you about it is the first step...not comfortable but can't be skipped if you want to move foreward.
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
Hilltopper - here's the cool thing about all this - it can all turn around for the better!
I fell into a funk or fog or whatever you want to call it for about 4 yrs. During that 4 yr period SF was pretty much non-existent. When I woke up and started to realize the neglect and I started applying MB principles, it was hard to sit around and be told no everytime I initiated. I originally took it as - dang - rejected again. In my wife's mind - it was why won't he leave me alone - doesn't he know I love him and I just can't turn on the SF feelings immediately?
We've gotten past this finally. I kept filling and keep filling her love bank. It's one of my top priorities! She knows where I stand and she fills mine by being more receptive and not saying no all the time and we did settle on a minimum of SF monthly that was mutally acceptable - dang it - did we just POJA???!!!!
For my wife and I - it's been a time of healing past hurts and straightening out current problems and sometimes just going with the flow and being there with the UA time as much as we can now. We now flirt and play with each other daily whereas for a long long long time our marriage and relationship was dead.
It's good your wife is here. Mine still thinks MB is a bunch of kooks but she dies like the positive changes so I guess we are not all bad.
Good luck on your journey and keep those love busters down to a minimum. Talk with your wife and don't hesitate to inquire and ask what she thinks about things. Just like you can't read her mind - she can't read yours either!
God bless you both and Good journeys with MB!
Hilltopper - here's the cool thing about all this - it can all turn around for the better!
I fell into a funk or fog or whatever you want to call it for about 4 yrs. During that 4 yr period SF was pretty much non-existent. When I woke up and started to realize the neglect and I started applying MB principles, it was hard to sit around and be told no everytime I initiated. I originally took it as - dang - rejected again. In my wife's mind - it was why won't he leave me alone - doesn't he know I love him and I just can't turn on the SF feelings immediately?
We've gotten past this finally. I kept filling and keep filling her love bank. It's one of my top priorities! She knows where I stand and she fills mine by being more receptive and not saying no all the time and we did settle on a minimum of SF monthly that was mutally acceptable - dang it - did we just POJA???!!!!
For my wife and I - it's been a time of healing past hurts and straightening out current problems and sometimes just going with the flow and being there with the UA time as much as we can now. We now flirt and play with each other daily whereas for a long long long time our marriage and relationship was dead.
It's good your wife is here. Mine still thinks MB is a bunch of kooks but she dies like the positive changes so I guess we are not all bad.
Good luck on your journey and keep those love busters down to a minimum. Talk with your wife and don't hesitate to inquire and ask what she thinks about things. Just like you can't read her mind - she can't read yours either!
God bless you both and Good journeys with MB!
Being told no really sucks. After a while I just assumed it was a no and pretty much stopped asking. I hate that it has gotten to this point but there is nothing I can do now but just move forward and fix it. I'm thrilled my wife is here on this forum with her own thread. After getting some positive, but apparently a lot of negative feedback she said something along the lines of, "I'm done with it. I'll read but I won't spend time on this forum." I respectfully encouraged her to stay. I think the curiosity alone will keep her coming back. You all smacked me around too when I first came here and it was hard to take. I think many times our expectation of what to expect here is different from the reality. When I first came here I thought I'd get a "Ohhh, poor Hilltopper, what he has to endure from his wife every day...." Instead it was more of a "stop behaving like an [censored] and LBing your wife all day". Makes me laugh now and I'm sure my wife is just rebelling against getting slapped up side the head a bit. Keep at it with both of us!
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.
Okay, Hill, will you do me and yourself a favor? Act on the positive actionable things she says, and ignore the rest for now. You can get so busy being positive that you don't have time to berate, so get busy, sir.
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.
Use these;
Emotional Needs -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdfLove Busters wifes -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdfhusband's
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdfFill those out, work from there.
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.
Use these;
Emotional Needs -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdfLove Busters wifes -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdfhusband's
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdfFill those out, work from there.
We have the workbook at home. We signed the contract and identified LB's and EN's, marked the top five for each. I started on the "avoiding SD's part" yesterday. I'll ask my wife if she can do a section or two with me tonight.
Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.
It may not be a true sexual aversion, HT, but rather it could be that there are too many lovebusters going on. Dr Harley says when couples learn not to lovebust and meet ENs, most bedroom problems go away.
If you are having any AOs, that is the FIRST thing I would focus on, HT. Dr Harley has said nothing else can be fixed if there are AOs.
I think it would help you two tremendously to review the enemies of conversation.
The Enemies of Good Conversation
The conversation you and your wife once shared was enjoyable for both of you. You looked forward to talking to each other. But lately, it's not at all pleasant. In fact, it's something you often do out of duty rather than choice. That's because you have developed habits that make your conversations unpleasant. I call those habits Enemies of Good Conversation.
The First Enemy of Good Conversation is using conversation to force agreement to your way of thinking. It's okay to negotiate with your spouse, but it's not okay to be disrespectful. Negotiation should start with a problem and end with a mutually acceptable way to solve it. When disrespect enters the picture, you not only fail to solve the problem, you leave with hurt feelings.
If you are thinking, "I'm right and you're wrong," watch out! You are just an utterance away from disaster. The Love Buster, disrespectful judgments, will not straighten your spouse out, as you hope. Instead, it will drive your spouse away from you. At first, you will develop emotional distance with your tactics, as your superficial conversation demonstrates. But eventually it will lead to physical distance -- separation or divorce.
Instead of trying to force agreement to your way of thinking, discuss your differing perspectives with respect. Your spouse's point of view is worth considering. After you fully understand it, you may be persuaded to her way of thinking.
Quite frankly, couples are easily influenced by each other when they are respectful. Their joint wisdom is more profound than the wisdom of either of them separately, and they know that. But that wisdom is uncovered only through respectful persuasion, never through disrespectful judgments.
Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.
It may not be a true sexual aversion, HT, but rather it could be that there are too many lovebusters going on. Dr Harley says when couples learn not to lovebust and meet ENs, most bedroom problems go away.
If you are having any AOs, that is the FIRST thing I would focus on, HT. Dr Harley has said nothing else can be fixed if there are AOs.
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure. I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking. I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration. My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
I wasn't sure and that's why I also posted the enemies of conversation link for you as well.
I had to work on my own AOs (emotional ones) and learn to walk away when I am upset or getting frustrated and in the opposite way also walk away when I see my H starting to get upset or frustrated as well. It helped tremendously when we stopped this cycle!
Keep reading and working. You guys are on the right track. It will take some time for you two to both break your bad habits (pls see Dr Harley's link on instincts and habits!) But once you form new habits, it will all be almost, well, easy. Hang in there
Hilltopper ... I do not think your wife has an "aversion to sex" per say .. but a lack of an emotional connection to you. Bring back the connection first and build it up ... and stop with the sad eyes when you do not recieve what your hoping for.
Be glad your wife is here. And give it TIME for the MB community and advice and books to grab a hold of her.
Basicly .. SLOW DOWN and stop being so emotional and just continue to meet her needs without expectations for now ... and get back to reconnecting at an emotional level without sex for now.
MNG
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.
Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.
She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.
Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.
Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.
HIll, if your wife has told you to your face that you have a temper .. and you dismiss her complaint by saying .. "well so and so has temper" that is a disrespectful judgement on your part.. She is TELLING you that you do .. and in her eyes .. its causing love bank withdrawls. IF she says you have a temper .. then you do! We all do in fact. Its possible that your wife is more sensitive to your "temper" than you realize because you dismiss her feelings about it.
I did that to my wife too .. she would say the same thing to me. "honey your yelling at me" And i would exclaim "no im not im simply trying to get my point across!"
The point is ... in HER mind .. I AM yelling .. becasue she is not me ... and is on the recieving end. She has better hearing than I do .. so what I precive as yelling .. and what she precieves as yelling are 2 very different situations. So I had to learn to adjust my own tone so I didnt come across as yelling .. even if i was frustrated. Why? Because she was sensitive to my frustrations and regardless if i thought i was yelling or not .. it was withdrawing love units faster than i could replace them because it WAS yelling TO her.
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.
Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.
She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.
Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.
Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.
I hold things in because bringing them up historically gets shot down with my spouse telling me, "you are reading into things", or "you are overreacting", or "you shouldn't feel that way." In other words it has historically been pointless to bring anything up that bothers me so I just hold it in. If that means I'm dishonest and avoiding conflict, can you blame me? I am working on this clamming up however. I haven't seen that movie so I don't know what anger issues Adam Sandler had in that movie, maybe you can explain. Ever since someone on this forum suggested that "its not ok for her to tell me how to feel" I've felt good about it and empowered a little bit. My feelings about EN's or LB's are my feelings, no one else's.
You can be open and honest regardless of what anyone else is doing. It's a choice. As is being kind and loving. Your choice, Hill. So yes, you are to blame for being dishonest and a conflict avoider.
HIll, if your wife has told you to your face that you have a temper .. and you dismiss her complaint by saying .. "well so and so has temper" that is a disrespectful judgement on your part.. She is TELLING you that you do .. and in her eyes .. its causing love bank withdrawls. IF she says you have a temper .. then you do! We all do in fact. Its possible that your wife is more sensitive to your "temper" than you realize because you dismiss her feelings about it.
I did that to my wife too .. she would say the same thing to me. "honey your yelling at me" And i would exclaim "no im not im simply trying to get my point across!"
The point is ... in HER mind .. I AM yelling .. becasue she is not me ... and is on the recieving end. She has better hearing than I do .. so what I precive as yelling .. and what she precieves as yelling are 2 very different situations. So I had to learn to adjust my own tone so I didnt come across as yelling .. even if i was frustrated. Why? Because she was sensitive to my frustrations and regardless if i thought i was yelling or not .. it was withdrawing love units faster than i could replace them because it WAS yelling TO her.
Sorry I'm a very literal person and I tend to debate things in literal terms. I do not have a temper at least in the dictionary sense of the word, but my wife gets offended when I hold things in rather than expressing myself, and then when she asks what it is I tell her not only the most current issue, but the previous 5! That is not fair to drop a bomb like that once a day or so I'm discontinuing that and not sweating "the small stuff".
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.
Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.
She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.
Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.
Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.
I hold things in because bringing them up historically gets shot down with my spouse telling me, "you are reading into things", or "you are overreacting", or "you shouldn't feel that way." In other words it has historically been pointless to bring anything up that bothers me so I just hold it in. If that means I'm dishonest and avoiding conflict, can you blame me? I am working on this clamming up however. I haven't seen that movie so I don't know what anger issues Adam Sandler had in that movie, maybe you can explain. Ever since someone on this forum suggested that "its not ok for her to tell me how to feel" I've felt good about it and empowered a little bit. My feelings about EN's or LB's are my feelings, no one else's.
Her reactions are Disrespectful Judgments.
Clear enough.
It's also not Ok for you to tell her how she should feel.
For instance;
Sorry I'm a very literal person and I tend to debate things in literal terms.
This puts you in a DJ position with your wife. Because you are "literal and debate things in literal terms," you place the expectation on her to do the same. That is a Disrespectful Judgment.
You are here, this is your thread, you keep YOUR SIDE of the street clean, capice?
Additionally, you have to address a the "previous 5" things because you are a conflict avoider, and you have 5 unresolved issues digging at you as well as whatever the current issue is.
How has that strategy worked for you so far?
Not so well.
Hill, I'm a very literal debater as well, with the added bonus of NOT being a conflict avoider. I'm a flipping JOY to live with, lol. One piece of very valuable advice I got from Steve Harley was to SLOW DOWN--I can state my complaint, and even if I have a hundred workable solutions already figured in my head, I need to back off and give my H room to work out some solutions for himself. Perhaps this would be valuable to you, as well.
Complain, once. Then wait.
State your opinion. Then shut up.
What you are doing is "kitchen-sinking" your wife. You've both learned some bad habits over the years, and now is the time to start un-learning them.
One of the biggest is this idea that you either need to have an argument over something, or hold it in. There is a middle ground that CWMI described, and if she can do it (a woman who I can tell LOVES debate), then I bet you can do it as well.
Something that may help with this, is doing a drive-by. Walk up to her, say something nice, and then "honey, when you did X yesterday I felt really hurt. Could you please not do that anymore?" And then walk away. If she follows to argue, don't let it get started. Acknowledge anything that she says, but disengage.
If your wife is an arguer (as I am) she may try to give a reason (excuse) for her actions, but you need to stand firm without getting angry. Say "yes, I understand you have reasons for doing that, but I'm just letting you know that it hurts me."
The harder part of this is the reverse where she complains to you about something you've done. You need accept the information and let her know that you will do something about it. And no "yeah-butting". Yeah I did do that, but you deserved it because...
Rough night with grumpy baby tonight! We are trying to rally and get her down to hang out. We are fine just buying our time to get her down man!
Hill, I'm a very literal debater as well, with the added bonus of NOT being a conflict avoider. I'm a flipping JOY to live with, lol. One piece of very valuable advice I got from Steve Harley was to SLOW DOWN--I can state my complaint, and even if I have a hundred workable solutions already figured in my head, I need to back off and give my H room to work out some solutions for himself. Perhaps this would be valuable to you, as well.
Complain, once. Then wait.
State your opinion. Then shut up.
T/J, borderline O/T;
I had a communication strategy passed on to me by one of my instructors.
The presenter was talking about communication in marriage, and the difference between her and her husband.
She was very knowledgeable and expressive, where he was succinct and fact-driven.
So, she could deliver a five-minute dissertation on a sink full of dirty dishes, the history of dishes, and how they affect society.
For him, it was simple; DISHES. DIRTY. STOP.
To facilitate communication between the two, the following advice was given - HE should; listen for five minutes. SHE should; get to the point, and avoid the dissertation on the social history of fine dinnerware.
Of course, this doesn't bleed into casual conversations and discussion - but, when communicating between two people, it's often best to bring a solution that facilitates both parties.
HHH, in our case, a problem was that I would complain, offer a soluition, and my conflict-avoidant H would agree to it, then PA'ly go against the solution be cause it wasn't his. So I had to back off and let him find his own. I don't much care how something gets solved, so long as it does, so this was quite effective for us.
HHH, in our case, a problem was that I would complain, offer a soluition, and my conflict-avoidant H would agree to it, then PA'ly go against the solution be cause it wasn't his. So I had to back off and let him find his own. I don't much care how something gets solved, so long as it does, so this was quite effective for us.
Ah ha!
I get that.
Did you ever offer a solution before identifying something as a problem?
Drove me nuts when FWW would offer me solutions for things I was doing that she identified as a problem - it was usually because I wasn't doing it the way she would.
Ugh.
Don't miss that.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real.
Well. I would say this was a real downer for your W to hear! Talk about rating a performance!
Hilltopper, we
do initially look for infidelity when a new poster comes on board. Because it is, sadly, normal to find out that there is an active affair that is creating the marital problems. When that is the case we have to advise the poster in a completely different way that requires some urgency. That's why we ask that first, as opposed to spending a lot of time on addressing what needs aren't being met. The affair becomes the primary target that needs to be attacked.
When there appears to be no affair we start working on ways the couple can come back together in harmony. I am assuming this is the case for you and tgrace.
Hilltopper, STOP making reference to an A. If you are suspicious then quietly snoop. Don't make her feel bad or feel under scrutiny. GOSH! She was trying to meet your needs and you should have rewarded that effort!!!!
Apologize for saying that and reassure her that you will stop bringing up an A.
Hilltopper, STOP making reference to an A. If you are suspicious then quietly snoop. Don't make her feel bad or feel under scrutiny. GOSH! She was trying to meet your needs and you should have rewarded that effort!!!!
Apologize for saying that and reassure her that you will stop bringing up an A.
I totally agree, I don't know why I got so paranoid. I take that back, I know why I got paranoid, but it is no longer relevant to our marriage. There is no affair period, never was. My wife kind of shut me out emotionally, with no affection nor sex. What I have a hard time with in this form is the suggestions you make. "If you are suspicious then quiely snoop?" Why? Geez, I told my wife this morning that there is a part of me that doesn't want to look like a fool so I wanted to be certain nothing is going on. I love my wife very, very much. She made an amazing effort early in the game to have sex with me which was awesome and I threw it back in her face. What a jerk! On another note, my wife keeps bringing up wanting to have "intervention" with either some parents or friends? I told her I don't get this at all. I thought maybe she was just trying to help and she would drop it, but she just sent me an email asking us to go speak with my parents, preferably my Dad? I'm of the opinion that this is a horrible idea, even worse than a marriage counselor. I think she feels wronged for having me be suspicious in the first place and wants to get it out on the table that she has never cheated on me. She also mentioned that a close friend of hers did something similar which is likely where she got the idea. I'd like to respectfully decline this idea, but I need some suggestions on how to approach it.
Its a good thing I got her a card yesterday afternoon and wrote some nice words in so that she can read this morning!
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
"You all?"
In both of your threads, most mentions of it go to you and the Mrs. there, mister.
Quite making asinine statements.
How do you get past it? You quietly observe for concrete evidence, and don't try to "call her out" for stupid crap like changing her underwear.
If you don't have concrete evidence? Well then shut your yap. Quit accusing her with such poor observations.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
"You all?"
In both of your threads, most mentions of it go to you and the Mrs. there, mister.
Quite making asinine statements.
How do you get past it? You quietly observe for concrete evidence, and don't try to "call her out" for stupid crap like changing her underwear.
If you don't have concrete evidence? Well then shut your yap. Quit accusing her with such poor observations.
Not a subtle point you're making here, thanks! My wife shot me a note apologizing for making me "that insecure". I apologized back for behaving the way I did. It might take several hours for her to feel good once again about the progress we've made but I'm sure she'll come around.
Hill ... lets stop referencing an affair. I believe that your wife is faithful ok? I am pretty sure we have that established now.
In regards to questioning her "orgasm" WHY would you do that? You have been working very hard at achieveing some intimacy and you threw your recent efforts away. You SHOULD have complimented her and or rewarded her .. not berate her! I would have said something along the lines of "WOW, Honey that was great! Your an AMAZING wife! I really enjoyed your affection! Did you enjoy it as much as I did? Was there anything I could have done better for you to make it more enjoyable?"
By complaining about her performance, your only going to make her want to do it even less! I know this becasue I did it too! I understand your concerns about her being not as tight as you might expect, but GEESH man .. she JUST had a baby! Her body will not be totally repaired yet! SLOW DOWN!
Did you offer her Oral sex? Reason I ask is because more often than not .. women do not orgasm by intercourse alone.
I used to act just as you .. and if i felt my wife was not enjoying it .. I would get upset. I felt guilty like i was using her. But after much negotiation (and many arguments about sex and performance) we came to an agreement that if the sex is just for me .. thats fine .. because she gets enjoyment from my pleasure and she told me that she would tell me (radical honesty) if she wants an orgasm too so I do not put any pressure on her to have one. Women dont (often) need it as much as men do so please understand that .. and STOP with the pressure for her orgasm. Let her get comfortable being intimate first ... you need to get into her MIND and bond emotionally. She made a GREAT effort and stepped out of her comfort zone to work on intimacy with you.
I would apologize to her ASAP ... tell her your sorry for complaining about her performance and making her think her efforts were not good enough. Reassure her that shes the only one for you and that you now believe her that your the only one for her. She did AWESOME as far as I am concerned and you need to thank her for that and tell her how much you appreciated it. Do something special for her.
MNG
My wife shot me a note apologizing for making me "that insecure". I apologized back for behaving the way I did.
THATS GREAT HILL! Build on that ... thats great progress! Buy her some flowers on the way home from work today and then if its nice go and use those pointers on bike training i gave you in an earlier post and take some pressure off your wife to show your appreciation.
MNG
My wife shot me a note apologizing for making me "that insecure". I apologized back for behaving the way I did.
THATS GREAT HILL! Build on that ... thats great progress! Buy her some flowers on the way home from work today and then if its nice go and use those pointers on bike training i gave you in an earlier post and take some pressure off your wife to show your appreciation.
MNG
Thanks, apologizing feels good. I got her a card and wrote some nice words yesterday and there will be more of the same today. I don't care if I make obvious attempts to do nice things any more and furthermore I won't read into how it is received! How's that?
I don't care if I make obvious attempts to do nice things any more and furthermore I won't read into how it is received! How's that?
Excellent decision!
I totally agree, I don't know why I got so paranoid. I take that back, I know why I got paranoid, but it is no longer relevant to our marriage.
Being paranoid isn't an excuse, OK? You have folks posting to you that actually ARE recovering from an affair and many of us have good reason to be paranoid, and yet we follow the rule to refrain from bringing suspicions up no matter how paranoid we may be feeling. If we can do it, so can you!
As far as having an intervention for your W to air this issue out in front of family members, well, that's just a bad idea and going to inflame the situation. I would not agree to that. If she brings up the idea again, I would CALMLY ask her if the two of you can come to an agreement that you will not talk about an A anymore because it has become a drain on your LB$s.
Hill ... lets stop referencing an affair. I believe that your wife is faithful ok? I am pretty sure we have that established now.
In regards to questioning her "orgasm" WHY would you do that? You have been working very hard at achieveing some intimacy and you threw your recent efforts away. You SHOULD have complimented her and or rewarded her .. not berate her! I would have said something along the lines of "WOW, Honey that was great! Your an AMAZING wife! I really enjoyed your affection! Did you enjoy it as much as I did? Was there anything I could have done better for you to make it more enjoyable?"
By complaining about her performance, your only going to make her want to do it even less! I know this becasue I did it too! I understand your concerns about her being not as tight as you might expect, but GEESH man .. she JUST had a baby! Her body will not be totally repaired yet! SLOW DOWN!
Did you offer her Oral sex? Reason I ask is because more often than not .. women do not orgasm by intercourse alone.
I used to act just as you .. and if i felt my wife was not enjoying it .. I would get upset. I felt guilty like i was using her. But after much negotiation (and many arguments about sex and performance) we came to an agreement that if the sex is just for me .. thats fine .. because she gets enjoyment from my pleasure and she told me that she would tell me (radical honesty) if she wants an orgasm too so I do not put any pressure on her to have one. Women dont (often) need it as much as men do so please understand that .. and STOP with the pressure for her orgasm. Let her get comfortable being intimate first ... you need to get into her MIND and bond emotionally. She made a GREAT effort and stepped out of her comfort zone to work on intimacy with you.
I would apologize to her ASAP ... tell her your sorry for complaining about her performance and making her think her efforts were not good enough. Reassure her that shes the only one for you and that you now believe her that your the only one for her. She did AWESOME as far as I am concerned and you need to thank her for that and tell her how much you appreciated it. Do something special for her.
MNG
Her performance was great and she DID orgasm. I in a horrifically paranoid state asked her if it was real and offended her deeply. When we do have sex my wife can orgasm pretty easily so I'm not worried. I have expressed that all the other things like oral sex and stuff that we used to do I'm TOTALLY into, but she isn't feeling good about it or her body after three kids I think. She did do awesome and I'm kicking myself for not leaving it at that. I love her so much and want to stop the LB's so that we can string together more days in a row. I feel like if we can go 1 day we can go 2, if we can go 2 we can go a week, if we can go a week, we can go a month or more. A week straight of no LBing and attempts to fill EN's and I'm fairly certain we'll be madly in love.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real.
Your wife delivered your third child less than six months ago. Things will fit together differently FROM NOW ON!! Get over it.
Also, is your wife breastfeeding the new baby? If so, she may go through a time of being "touched out" just because of all the little people pulling at her right now.
I am not one of the MB experts. However, I AM an expert in what it's like to have a bunch of little kids. One of the most difficult times in my life was when my third child was born. It is very, very hard to have all those tiny little people needing a piece of you all day every day.
I noticed that the very first time you posted here was around the time your youngest baby was born. Is there any chance that your marital problems are because you are jealous of the time your wife is spending caring for your children? Are you helping her around the house and with the children? And if you are helping, what's your attitude about it?
P.S. Yes, you were a real jerk.
Hill, can you control your paranoia? If your emotions get the best of you and keep you from working this logical plan here, you are not going to make it. Trust me.
Face the logic for a minute:
* Women can enjoy sex without orgasm
* Your wife can tell you if she's not enjoying sex and if she'd like you to do something different. You don't have to obsess over that. Let her worry about it.
* Men can enjoy sex without their wives orgasming
* YOUR WIFE IS WILLING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
Relax and have a good time. Trust your wife to let you know if there's a problem, and express your willingness to help her if she ever feels like there is one. Relax. Have a good time.
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
You know, I about died reading that sentence. It was embarrassing to read. Intensely personal. I'm sure your wife doesn't want your sexual difficulties broadcast here. And I'm sure it was indescribably horrible for her to hear it from you in person.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
That was your first mistake.
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
Hill, do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plans to help your marriage get better?
If so, let me remind you on what the Marriage Builders plan is if you suspect an affair: snoop, find evidence, and do not confront until you have evidence. You've been told this a number of times, and yet you've already confronted your wife multiple times without evidence.
A different "fit" after pregnancy is not evidence.
We're talking evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
Do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley, Hill? Or do you want to follow the hilltopper plan from hilltopper?
(Want to hear how badly things go when I follow the markos plan instead of the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley? It's not a pretty sight!)
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real.
Your wife delivered your third child less than six months ago. Things will fit together differently FROM NOW ON!! Get over it.
Also, is your wife breastfeeding the new baby? If so, she may go through a time of being "touched out" just because of all the little people pulling at her right now.
I am not one of the MB experts. However, I AM an expert in what it's like to have a bunch of little kids. One of the most difficult times in my life was when my third child was born. It is very, very hard to have all those tiny little people needing a piece of you all day every day.
I noticed that the very first time you posted here was around the time your youngest baby was born. Is there any chance that your marital problems are because you are jealous of the time your wife is spending caring for your children? Are you helping her around the house and with the children? And if you are helping, what's your attitude about it?
P.S. Yes, you were a real jerk.
She had a c-section, and yes it could be possible that it came to a head once the third child was born. Problems have been there much longer than that though. Fights have become more frequent, sex less frequent, just kind of a general you do your thing and I'll do mine attitude developed. I stopped caring because despite my infantile desire to "fix things" it never mattered what I did. I got to the point where I couldn't control the outcome of the day, her feelings, our relationship, anything. I've learned a lot here on how to do things right and I'm working on it. I'm a hands on dad and my wife would let you know that not do I help with all three children and the house I have taken it to another level. I make breakfast, make lunches for school, take the oldest to school on the way to work, pick her up from cooking class, do the grocery shopping, make dinner every night, do the dishes, and hold the baby constantly(because I love to do so).
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
You know, I about died reading that sentence. It was embarrassing to read. Intensely personal. I'm sure your wife doesn't want your sexual difficulties broadcast here. And I'm sure it was indescribably horrible for her to hear it from you in person.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
That was your first mistake.
My wife requested that I tell you all verbatim what I said no doubt because it was preposterous in her eyes and assumed you'd all tell me I'm a jerk which I am. I don't know any of you however which is why I feel so free to speak my mind. I think that is in a way the beauty of learning in this format.
Hill, can you control your paranoia? If your emotions get the best of you and keep you from working this logical plan here, you are not going to make it. Trust me.
Face the logic for a minute:
* Women can enjoy sex without orgasm
* Your wife can tell you if she's not enjoying sex and if she'd like you to do something different. You don't have to obsess over that. Let her worry about it.
* Men can enjoy sex without their wives orgasming
* YOUR WIFE IS WILLING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
Relax and have a good time. Trust your wife to let you know if there's a problem, and express your willingness to help her if she ever feels like there is one. Relax. Have a good time.
Something is off here with the sex part. The sex was great for both of us and my paranoia had little to do with the act itself. It was me reaching for things that just aren't there not expressing that any part about the sex at all performance or other existed.
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
Hill, do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plans to help your marriage get better?
If so, let me remind you on what the Marriage Builders plan is if you suspect an affair: snoop, find evidence, and do not confront until you have evidence. You've been told this a number of times, and yet you've already confronted your wife multiple times without evidence.
A different "fit" after pregnancy is not evidence.
We're talking evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
Do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley, Hill? Or do you want to follow the hilltopper plan from hilltopper?
(Want to hear how badly things go when I follow the markos plan instead of the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley? It's not a pretty sight!)
Yes I want to follow the plan and it kills me when I stray from it. Worse than that its like a "reset" with the progress we've made. There are many things that are going right. My wife is reading the book, I've read two of the books. We come here and post and learn. We have the workbook. We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away. I post here more frequently than anyone. My wife is a different person that I don't understand, go figure. I stare at her frequently with a perplexed look on my face because I just don't know what she wants. She's a walking contradiction at times and I don't know how to deal with it. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean I can't keep up with her mind. First it is A, then it switches to B a minute later. I hate having to "guess" at everything and hope that I hit the mark. When I do hit the mark it is great, we get each other and have a good time. When I hear a "sigh" that signifies that she is irritated with me. I get a lot of "sighs" folks. I just want to be confident in meeting my wife's needs and not walk on eggshells and feel clueless. By the way my wife is definitely from Venus, perhaps even another galaxy!
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
You know, I about died reading that sentence. It was embarrassing to read. Intensely personal. I'm sure your wife doesn't want your sexual difficulties broadcast here. And I'm sure it was indescribably horrible for her to hear it from you in person.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
That was your first mistake.
My wife requested that I tell you all verbatim what I said no doubt because it was preposterous in her eyes and assumed you'd all tell me I'm a jerk which I am. I don't know any of you however which is why I feel so free to speak my mind. I think that is in a way the beauty of learning in this format.
Good. At least she trusts us to kick your backside!
Hill, can you control your paranoia? If your emotions get the best of you and keep you from working this logical plan here, you are not going to make it. Trust me.
Face the logic for a minute:
* Women can enjoy sex without orgasm
* Your wife can tell you if she's not enjoying sex and if she'd like you to do something different. You don't have to obsess over that. Let her worry about it.
* Men can enjoy sex without their wives orgasming
* YOUR WIFE IS WILLING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
Relax and have a good time. Trust your wife to let you know if there's a problem, and express your willingness to help her if she ever feels like there is one. Relax. Have a good time.
Something is off here with the sex part. The sex was great for both of us and my paranoia had little to do with the act itself. It was me reaching for things that just aren't there not expressing that any part about the sex at all performance or other existed.
There is also the fact that you have this unresolved issue, and post-coital you can be emotionally raw. SF requires BOTH SPOUSES to be emotionally vulnerable with each other. If our fight-or-flight response is up, the last thing our body wants to do is have sex (which seems counter, since we can get an "adrenaline rush" from sex).
My wife requested that I tell you all verbatim what I said no doubt because it was preposterous in her eyes and assumed you'd all tell me I'm a jerk which I am.
That is awesome, Hill! My wife has benefited here often in exactly the same way!
We can shoot straight with you and tell you things that your wife cannot.
And we will. Some of us, you can't stop us from shooting.
By the way my wife said she is never coming back here which bothers me. I asked her the following but haven't heard back, "If you could once again give MB a chance, post in your thread, read the books, do the workbook, I think everything will be great. It is not a scam, it is totally legit, and these people have already helped our marriage more than you know." She also acknowledged she got the card I wrote her but nothing further, guess she is still mad at me.
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
By the way my wife said she is never coming back here which bothers me.
I think she's said that about seven times already, and both of you just got here. Calm down and forget it.
She also acknowledged she got the card I wrote her but nothing further, guess she is still mad at me.
I'd still be mad, too.
So would you, probably.
Hill, you insulted her vagina.
A card does not make up for that. It is the START of making up for that. Show some follow through.
What have you done nice for her, lately?
Yes I want to follow the plan and it kills me when I stray from it. Worse than that its like a "reset" with the progress we've made.
You are correct. This is the voice of reason. Listen to it.
Hill, you are a really emotional man.
If you want to have happy emotions in your life, you are going to have to let your reason and your logic guide you to do the things that will bring about happiness.
Focus on logical facts like this: "When I accuse my wife of things, I am being disrespectful. When I am disrespectful, I screw up all the progress that we have made and we both have to start over again. In pain."
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
I'll just chill then. I called her this morning and told her, "If you are feeling up to it, call me and we can chat more." She's obviously still mad and doesn't want to talk so I won't force the issue despite my desire to do just that. I'll get her something or do something nice on the way home.
Hill, you insulted her vagina.
A card does not make up for that. It is the START of making up for that. Show some follow through.
For a touch of lightness; I don't even want to know what a card apologizing for that would look like...
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
She's referring to the affair accusations.
Can you do that? Can you shut up about it and just move on and do nice things to meet her emotional needs?
I agree with you Markos! ... it is my belief as well that there is not affair going on.
Its time to drop the "A" word from your vocabulary and move on to being the best hubby you can be.
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
She's referring to the affair accusations.
Can you do that? Can you shut up about it and just move on and do nice things to meet her emotional needs?
Also, note that she's saying this even dispite your completely insensitive comment last night.
You are one lucky man, Hill.
Thank that woman tonight for putting up with you, okay? Tell her, "Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me."
I agree with you Markos! ... it is my belief as well that there is not affair going on.
Its time to drop the "A" word from your vocabulary and move on to being the best hubby you can be.
Yep that is the exact plan!
Hey, Hill, we do a little something here at home when one of us wants to DJ or otherwise say something dumb. We each knows what it means, so we kinda get our point across without actually saying it, and it's a gentle lead-in when something really ought to be discussed. Plus, it serves as a great reminder of the Greater Point. It's three little code words: "I love you."
Maybe you could try that with grace. Talk to her first about it, so she knows it is not an avoidance thing. She says, what's wrong? And you say, I love you.
Here, my husband will come up with some plan I think is a bad idea. He'll say, "hey, I thought I'd rip the front porch off the house on Sunday, what do you think?" My immediate thought would be "are you nutz?" But my immediate words are, "i love you." and he knows I mean he's nutz.
It's like shorthand for "give me a minute so I don't say something I'll regret."
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
She's referring to the affair accusations.
Can you do that? Can you shut up about it and just move on and do nice things to meet her emotional needs?
Also, note that she's saying this even dispite your completely insensitive comment last night.
You are one lucky man, Hill.
Thank that woman tonight for putting up with you, okay? Tell her, "Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me."
I have thanked her, apologized, and will continue to do so. Got her a card, sent her an E-Card, replied to her email, sent her a text a few hours ago. No response to any of it and frankly I can't make her respond. This is the communication thing I struggle with, I never know during good times or bad where I stand. I'm pretty sure I'm in the doghouse as of now, but the non-responding, or selective responding is difficult to read. I mentioned this to her yesterday. I send her a thoughtful text about wanting to get her something yummy to eat at the store, she ignored it. She sent me a different text which was a picture of the baby awhile later. She has the three kids and things get busy, but the communication breakdown makes it very difficult to even do something nice, you know? So today same thing, she emailed me and I replied. I sent her a text asking if she was doing ok and that I got blasted for my behavior on this post. No response. If I knew what she wanted whether it be super important or not so much, it would make things a lot easier because I'm still walking on eggshells. She has expressed irritation with some of my family members, some of her friends, some of our friends, etc. I can understand the stresses of the baby being a big cause of this and I've even told her that. Communication or lack there of and a lack of feedback on things I do good or bad means I'm operating in the dark. Pin the tale on the donkey. When I'm not clear about something I often ask her what she meant which is mostly answered with being irritated. The tone is, "well stupid you should have just known what I meant, get it fool?"
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
Why not call into the radio show or send Dr. H an email and he will answer it on his show (I believe you send it to his wife at jharley@marriageubuilders.com)?
Tell him exactly what you are going through, why you are suspicious and what you and your W have/have not done in order to calm your fears.
I'm inclined to believe that you will believe a professional on this and not stop obsessing until he gives you direction.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
Why not call into the radio show or send Dr. H an email and he will answer it on his show (I believe you send it to his wife at jharley@marriageubuilders.com)?
Tell him exactly what you are going through, why you are suspicious and what you and your W have/have not done in order to calm your fears.
I'm inclined to believe that you will believe a professional on this and not stop obsessing until he gives you direction.
Thanks for the suggestion I'll think about that. The A thing is over. I see no reason for it and I've moved past it. My wife has been open and honest with me about everything. I think other Vets on this site have seen that she has nothing to hide either. I struggled for awhile because I was encouraged to "snoop" on many occasions. I wasn't getting any affection or SF. Then my wife was asked once or twice is she was being truthful about having an affair. I described my wife's reaction to the first time I confronted her, and especially the second as "angry denial". This description caused more Vets to think something was up. It was just ridiculous from the beginning and still is. All you need to know is that it is over, I trust my wife is being truthful, I've told her this. It doesn't mean she won't be mad or hurt for whatever time frame that takes for her, but it does mean that there is no doubt whatsoever that my wife wants to meet my EN's and me hers. This is a process and admittedly as a very impatient man I will hour by hour and day by day do what I need to do in my yard as that is all I can control. From what I've seen I think she intends on doing the same.
Have patience Hill ... yes shes mad at you and rightfully so. She will need a few days to re collect her thoughts on your behaviour from last night.
DONT hound her ... DONT glare at her .. No DJ or AO or SD's. And DO NOT give her your "stewing face" Just let it all slide off your back right now OK? Keep being nice and meeting her needs. Maybe pour her a bath and bring her some wine and put on her favorite CD in the bathroom for her and lite some candles in there too ... then YOU put the kids to bed ... read them bed time stores .. and rock the little one to sleep. If ya got a baby swing ... use that! .. Both my kids loved the baby swing and had many naps in it! This will give her a chance to wind down ... dont ASK her if she wants you to do this .. just do it! And when she gets out offer her a backrub to help her relax and let her go to sleep with no "alterior motives" ok?
Time to SLOW DOWN and let the MB program help your wife shift gears.
My DH accused me several years ago of sleeping with someone else. I would classify my response as total horror that then went to angry denial. And, he stewed over my transgression for a WEEK before he brought them up. Once I got over the pain I was pissed.
We moved past it, but it took me a while.
Have y'all POJA'ed the response time to your contact? My DH and I did - if I'm at work and he calls on my cell, I call back at the next break. If he calls on my work line, I answer, because it's an emergency. If he emails me at work, I answer within 30 minutes, if he emails me at home, then it's within 24 hours. Calls on my cell when I'm not at work are answered or if he has to leave a message I get back with him within 15 minutes unless I've told him I'll be out of touch (i.e. riding my horse, traveling somewhere that service is patchy, etc...). It made him a lot more comfortable with the time it takes me to respond. And, I always let him know my schedule for the week - If I'm going to be away from my desk all day at work then he knows that, or if I'm going to be riding my horse all day and not have my phone, he knows that.
His calls are my #1 priority when I'm not at work, at work if he needs me then he's still #1.
By the way my wife said she is never coming back here which bothers me.
Hey, Hill,
let me just point out to you,
your wife is still posting here.
I just wanted to point that out.
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Just a phrase I use man, no need to read into it. And no, I'm typically not bothered by much at all really.
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Just a phrase I use man, no need to read into it. And no, I'm typically not bothered by much at all really.
The king of "stewing" gives the advice "no need to read into it."
Come on, guy.
And no, I'm typically not bothered by much at all really.
Then why do you say it? I'm not trying to split hairs, but you may unknowingly be saying this a lot more than you realize. "It bothers me" is usually the beginning of a negative statement. Your listeners hear it and may accordingly begin to prepare their defense against this thing that bothers you as soon as they hear that phrase. Drop it if it's just a figure of speech. It won't help you.
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Markos, not trying to be snarky in any way� just want to understand� how, unless someone points this out to us, do we learn what little things that bother us that wouldn�t bother most people?
I ask because I am learning that about myself. My best bosses are the kinds of guys whose nitnoid habits (like wanting their stuff a certain way) annoys my coworkers but I love because I totally understand what the bosses want being that I�m the same way. And I don�t have a problem with them telling me how they want something. So these two bosses love my work. Until I got in this situation, where I constantly hear my coworkers complain about XYZ, I never realized that things I want or the way I like to do things is annoying to others. Or that the things that bother/annoy me about others wouldn�t bother �most other people.�
So how would Hilltopper even know if things that bother him don�t bother most other people? He says "It bothers me," a lot, but then says very little bothers him. Maybe, like me and my bosses, he doesn�t realize how he appears to others (and his wife), or how very much these "little things" bother him?
It doesn't matter one bit whether anything bothers 'most people'. Hill and grace are in this marriage, and the ONLY thing that matters is what bothers them.
It doesn't matter one bit whether anything bothers 'most people'. Hill and grace are in this marriage, and the ONLY thing that matters is what bothers them.
QFT
I am not finding fault with him being bothered, or with him saying he's bothered!
My theory is that he genuinely IS bothered and that it's not just an expression.
More later, I hope, gotta run ...
Look I'm just trying to avoid LBs and meet ENs in my backyard, that's all I can do. It takes some forethought and discipline which I can do.
Wife said she's still mad. I don't blame her but I think it best to give her some space for a night until she's ready.
Wife said she's still mad. I don't blame her but I think it best to give her some space for a night until she's ready.
Or make yourself available for her to express her feelings, shut up and listen, and let her talk. DO NOT OFFER YOUR OPINION OR ADVICE. DO NOT OFFER ANYTHING YOU ARE READING HERE.
Just listen!
Wife said she's still mad. I don't blame her but I think it best to give her some space for a night until she's ready.
Or make yourself available for her to express her feelings, shut up and listen, and let her talk. DO NOT OFFER YOUR OPINION OR ADVICE. DO NOT OFFER ANYTHING YOU ARE READING HERE.
Just listen!
I understand.
A quick rundown. She ignored my text to her asking her if she was "ok" at 11am all day, she finally emailed me at about much later with the following, you'll see my replies:
Her:
I hope u hear this clearly I WILL communicate with you when u get home. Stop trying to fix things on the dot and put pressure on everything. U did something wrong, I'm getting over it and I will be ready when u get home. I would like I to have more patience.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to? If you're ok I'm gonna work a little later as I don't think it would be wise to speak right now, ok? If your mood changes let me know. I love you.
Her:
I'm just letting u know I've told u more than once I would like to speak with u when u get home. I feel like u try to force responses and get annoyed. I'm not trying to have any attitude and of course I FEEL like you are reading into my email. Simply stated talk later. I held back every ounce of my body from telling staci everything. She is a good friend and watched Alex so I could run. There are little people with ears here. I will gladly see u when I get home.
Me:
Please reread my email again. Specifically what did I read into and what did I force? Are you reading my thread? I sent you a text at 11 am asking if you were ok in a respectful loving concerned manner. That is all I did, does that bother you? I thought it was nice. I'm glad you want to chat later, we can spend time together. Luv you lots
Her:
I'm normally glad for u to send me text messages other than today when I was extremely mad and hurt by u for basically calling me a whore. So yes I am mad and willing to move on but I will have my own stew for one night. Yes I do luv u but I'm still extremely still hurt and overwhelmed. We can still watch movies and hang tonight but please don't have any expectations that I'm going to desire to be affectionate tonight considering the circumstances.
We haven't spoken all night nor made eye contact. I went into the other room to read the book, she went up to take a shower so I put the kids down. I've apologized to her and publicly on this forum numerous times but it is gonna take a lot more time for her to get over this as near as I can tell. She is hurt and I get that and at a minimum I'm not LBing anything I suppose but we are in a state of withdrawal at the moment.
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
A quick rundown. She ignored my text to her asking her if she was "ok" at 11am all day, she finally emailed me at about much later with the following, you'll see my replies:
Her:
I hope u hear this clearly I WILL communicate with you when u get home. Stop trying to fix things on the dot and put pressure on everything. U did something wrong, I'm getting over it and I will be ready when u get home. I would like I to have more patience.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to? If you're ok I'm gonna work a little later as I don't think it would be wise to speak right now, ok? If your mood changes let me know. I love you.
Her:
I'm just letting u know I've told u more than once I would like to speak with u when u get home. I feel like u try to force responses and get annoyed. I'm not trying to have any attitude and of course I FEEL like you are reading into my email. Simply stated talk later. I held back every ounce of my body from telling staci everything. She is a good friend and watched Alex so I could run. There are little people with ears here. I will gladly see u when I get home.
Me:
Please reread my email again. Specifically what did I read into and what did I force? Are you reading my thread? I sent you a text at 11 am asking if you were ok in a respectful loving concerned manner. That is all I did, does that bother you? I thought it was nice. I'm glad you want to chat later, we can spend time together. Luv you lots
Her:
I'm normally glad for u to send me text messages other than today when I was extremely mad and hurt by u for basically calling me a whore. So yes I am mad and willing to move on but I will have my own stew for one night. Yes I do luv u but I'm still extremely still hurt and overwhelmed. We can still watch movies and hang tonight but please don't have any expectations that I'm going to desire to be affectionate tonight considering the circumstances.
We haven't spoken all night nor made eye contact. I went into the other room to read the book, she went up to take a shower so I put the kids down. I've apologized to her and publicly on this forum numerous times but it is gonna take a lot more time for her to get over this as near as I can tell. She is hurt and I get that and at a minimum I'm not LBing anything I suppose but we are in a state of withdrawal at the moment.
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
Uh, you picked a fight there dippey-doo!
Her red = something going through your ears/eys like wind in a tunnel - she is stating that she cannot carry on the conversation comfortably and you keep forcing it.
Shut yer yap and LISTEN TO THE WOMAN.
Your red = disrespectful judgments. You are trying to educate her about her own feelings, or making assumptions about how long it should take her to "get over it."
Knock it off!
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
It will take her time to get over your comment yesterday. At least she's sharing a house with you, I think that's pretty generous given the circumstances.
Give her some time, peace, and meet her needs as best you can until she's ready to move on. Quit pushing her so hard.
MB doesn't work over night. It's not a majikal cureall for all marriage ailments. It takes time, work on yourselves, commitment, and changing some normally entrenched beliefs. Give it time, be patient. Someone told me to form a plan, give it a set amount of time, and reevaluate at the end of that time. It worked out pretty well for us. We still struggle, but a lot of that is situational and not the fault of the program because we're not using it 100% (DH still travels 5 days a week).
I believe that stewing and then blowing up is really hard for both parties to get over. My DH has always been really, really bad about it and since we've been using MB and the trust and intimacy has grown he's feeling safe enough to share with me before we get to the stewing/blowing point. It's really changed the dynamic of our relationship.
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
Waaaa Waaa Waaaa.
Uh, you picked a fight there dippey-doo!
Her red = something going through your ears/eys like wind in a tunnel - she is stating that she cannot carry on the conversation comfortably and you keep forcing it.
Shut yer yap and LISTEN TO THE WOMAN.
Your red = disrespectful judgments. You are trying to educate her about her own feelings, or making assumptions about how long it should take her to "get over it."
Knock it off!
Listen to HHH.
Dude, you have treated the woman like DIRT. You are lucky she didn't do something worse than delay responding. She is trying to gather her emotions and instead of giving her some space you are demanding immediate forgiveness.
She said that she wanted to talk to you when you got home, so you decided to work late?!?
You called the mother of your children a slut, didn't respect her wishes, hounded her because she didn't respond to your texts in a time frame that you found acceptable, but you feel sad and lonely. Throwing in an occasional "I love you" in the middle of that garbage doesn't erase the negative, rude, hurtful things you said. Have you tried to consider how your wife feels?
Is the baby sleeping through the night yet? Has your wife been able to rest enough to recover from the major abdominal surgery that was needed to deliver your child safely? How does she feel about having to have a c-section this time after having two previous vaginal births? Do you even know?
Hilltopper, you are coming across as a self-centered, childish jerk.
Kirby with all due respect you don't know what you're talking about. If you hate me I really don't care I'm not here for you I'm here for my marriage.
Huh? How did a "are ok ok?" turn into me picking a fight? She emailed me and I replied to her email respectfully. Whoever that other idiot was that assumed my expression of love was not true or real can take a hike. I didn't press a thing. Where did I force her to talk to me in any way?
Kirby with all due respect you don't know what you're talking about. If you hate me I really don't care I'm not here for you I'm here for my marriage.
Sure doesn't sound like it dude.
I mean, if you really can't look at your text exchange and see how wrong it was, how disrespectful you are being, how unbelieva-frigging ENTITLED...
Wow. Just....WOW
You are lucky she will even let you into the house. IMHO.
For the love of Pete when did I demand forgiveness either?
Kerala same for you, how about you just hate me from a distance? I'm here with my wife she doesn't even hate me as much as you. Best of luck to you.
What, we aren't allow to disagree with you? Disagreement does not equal hatred.
Dude, you're shooting at the relief helicopters. These are folks who have been there/done that. The things that piss you off the most are usually the things you really need to pay attention to.
And FYI, I'm quoting what people were posting to ME when I first arrived on this website two years ago. They were right, and once I figured that out, things got better.
These folks are on your side -- you just haven't figured it out yet.
Her:
I hope u hear this clearly I WILL communicate with you when u get home. Stop trying to fix things on the dot and put pressure on everything. U did something wrong, I'm getting over it and I will be ready when u get home. I would like I to have more patience.
HT, you should have just let it go with this text. Stop trying to force your W to react the way that you want her to react. Please read up on DJs and the friends and enemies of conversation.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to?
This. Removing the tude is really disrespectful. If my wife said something or texted me something like that, I would be very angry. She's still upset with you, slowly getting over it and you keep pushing this having to communicate about it right then.
Just stop. If she says she wants to talk about it right then, then drop it till you get home. You're hounding her. What if she wanted to talk about something and you absolutely did not right then. So she follows you from room to room saying "why won't you talk to me....talk to me!" You'd get really annoyed.
Huh? How did a "are ok ok?" turn into me picking a fight? She emailed me and I replied to her email respectfully. Where did I force her to talk to me in any way?
there have been several posts on your threads about your wife not responding to your texts as quickly as you'd like and then you continue pressing the "why aren't you responding?!" When she says she'll talk to you at home and you keep sending her texts or emails, that is not respectful...that is hounding and irritating.
You're picking fights because of the continual getting mad because she's not answering you quick enough.
Kerala same for you, how about you just hate me from a distance?
Get over yourself. No one hates you; we don't even know you. If we're responding to you it's because we're seeing something and trying to help you. But this 'hate me from a distance' stuff is childish, immature, and if you say stuff like this to your wife, is not attractive coming from a man to a woman.
If you don't like what someone has to say, then don't respond. We're taking our time to try and help your marriage. if you're going to whine, self-martyr yourself, and lash out at those helping you, then don't seek help.
If you get called a jerk, so what. If a bunch of people are seeing the same thing, stop being defensive and ask why. All you're going to do is get people to stop responding to you. I certainly would not want to post to someone that is having a "stop hating me" pitty party.
Seriously. Maybe asking why someone has a POV that they do would be better than getting snappy to people trying to help you.
A quick rundown. She ignored my text to her
Hilltopper, let's start right there.
If you would like to have a better marriage, then I think you have here a belief that strongly needs to change, and fast. Can you come to accept that your wife doesn't have to respond to everything you do? That she can make her own choice about that?
What I hear when you say she ignored you is what someone else heard: you feel ENTITLED to an answer. You feel like she SHOULD answer you.
And that is how marital abuse occurs: this path starts with demands (answer me) and disrespectful judgments (you are ignoring me) and eventually goes down to angry outbursts. Don't go there. Start with accepting that your wife can make up her own mind on whether or not she should answer you, and that her opinion on that subject is VALID and must be RESPECTED by you, even if your opinion is different.
So you felt like she should answer. She felt different. Does your opinion outrank hers?
A caring husband accepts his wife's right to decline his requests, because he cares about her feelings and recognizes that if she had done what he wanted, then he would have gained at her expense. When you make a request (send a text as an invitation to talk), if your wife doesn't feel like granting your request (respond to the text), think about what conditions might cause her to feel enthusiastic about granting your request. If you can't think of any right away, withdraw your request for now.
Guess who told me that? His name is Willard Harley.
Gotta disagree, markos, based on what Steve Harley told us. Your spouse calls, you answer, even if it is just to say that now is not a good time. Ignoring your spouse because you are either too busy for them or just don't feel like dealing with them at the moment is murder on a marriage.
I do think Hill was being a jerk in those texts. He should have answered her first onewith a hearty, "great! Looking forward to this evening."
Hill, when you get what you're after, stop!
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.
Assuming that she is ignoring is a DJ, and a severe problem.
Gotta disagree, markos, based on what Steve Harley told us. Your spouse calls, you answer, even if it is just to say that now is not a good time. Ignoring your spouse because you are either too busy for them or just don't feel like dealing with them at the moment is murder on a marriage.
I think you should tell grace that, not Hill. There are things we can tell grace that Hill should not. It's not his job to tell her she's passive aggressive or decide that her behavior is the death knell of the marriage. Her lack of availability may be a problem, but if he starts disrespectfully judging her about it, that'll be an even
bigger problem!
They are both here; if you see a problem in her behavior, go share it with her.
I did. Yesterday.
It may be wise to always respond to your spouse, and a great way to show your care, but Hilltopper has no control over whether or not his wife chooses to respond to him.
Assuming she's ignoring him, and treating her poorly because of that, is an attempt to control her. It is abusive.
It may be a totally innocent mistake on her part. Or, by not responding, she may be attempting to control her own DJs and AOs.
It would be good for him, at a later date when things are calm, to let her know "In the future, I would like it if you would respond and let me know you're busy." But she still has the right to say no.
CWMI, do you agree that you are responsible for doing what you should do even when your spouse is refusing to do what they should?
Absolutely, did you read my whole post? I didn't let Hill off the hook about going off on her.
It's not his job to tell her she's passive aggressive or decide that her behavior is the death knell of the marriage.
I had to come back to this. I agree that it's a bad idea for him to call her PA, but it IS his decision on whether her behavior is harming their marriage, and it IS his job to tell her so. He is currently doing this in a destructive manner, which needs to change, but it still is his job to let her know when she hurts him--complaining in marriage, RH, etc.
Absolutely, did you read my whole post? I didn't let Hill off the hook about going off on her.
Can we talk language and context? I'm defensive because several people called me a jerk for hounding my wife. I know I do this which is why I sent her one text at 11am literally saying "are yo ok?" and left it at that. I didn't freak out because I didn't get an answer or contact her back in any way. She emailed me four hours later, not the other way around, with a response to something I didn't do(hound her). Only thing I can figure is she trolled my thread which was active of me seeking advice on what to do or how to behave if or when my wife responds to some things and completely ignores others. On top of not hounding her and in fact doing the opposite of giving her space to talk when she is ready, I get another 2-3 people berating me for insulting my wife's vagina, also out of context. There is a reason I began to feel the way I did and consider the possibility of an A, we've all made that clear. We had a long talk, I realized I have nothing to worry about and we moved on. Sincere apologies have flowed out my mouth for a day and a half. My wife needs time and I'm giving her all the time she needs.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to?
This. Removing the tude is really disrespectful. If my wife said something or texted me something like that, I would be very angry. She's still upset with you, slowly getting over it and you keep pushing this having to communicate about it right then.
Just stop. If she says she wants to talk about it right then, then drop it till you get home. You're hounding her. What if she wanted to talk about something and you absolutely did not right then. So she follows you from room to room saying "why won't you talk to me....talk to me!" You'd get really annoyed.
Again, when did I in any of this force conversation with my wife? She emailed, I replied, she emailed again, I replied. Please, please reread what transpired, maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I have had a history of "hounding" but I didn't yesterday. When a person tries to change his behavior, does exactly that, then gets advice repeatedly to stop hounding when he did nothing of the sort, it is confusing.
There is a reason I began to feel the way I did and consider the possibility of an A,
Whoa! How did we get back to discussing
that again?? I thought we were talking about text messages.
we've all made that clear. We had a long talk, I realized I have nothing to worry about and we moved on. Sincere apologies have flowed out my mouth for a day and a half. My wife needs time and I'm giving her all the time she needs.
Okay, what are you doing nice for her? Can you take this woman to dinner some time soon? She recently went out of her way to have sex with you to proclaim her love and commitment to you. What a great lady. What are you planning to do nice for her, next?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
Also, note that she's saying this even dispite your completely insensitive comment last night.
You are one lucky man, Hill.
Thank that woman tonight for putting up with you, okay? Tell her, "Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me."
Hill, did you go to your wife last night and say this? She needs to hear it. You have been difficult to live with, and she need to hear that you appreciate the fact that she is putting up with you.
Look I'm just trying to avoid LBs and meet ENs in my backyard
Hey, what ENs are you meeting, and how?
Again, when did I in any of this force conversation with my wife? She emailed, I replied, she emailed again, I replied. Please, please reread what transpired, maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I have had a history of "hounding" but I didn't yesterday. When a person tries to change his behavior, does exactly that, then gets advice repeatedly to stop hounding when he did nothing of the sort, it is confusing.
And this is what scares me about you. Multiple people have read your exchange and told you that you hounded her.
Why don't you believe it?
Instead of being willing to accept the fact that you made a mistake, you argue and declare that what you did yesterday wasn't bad because you've done MUCH WORSE in the past.
In your posts on this thread you say that your wife "ignored" your first message. That's a lie. She took 4 hours to respond. That's not ignoring you.
You, sir, have the mindset of an abuser. I don't know if you have ever hit your wife in the past, but IMO, you have to potential to do so.
Abusers are: controlling, entitled, disrespectful of their partner, and manipulative. They feel justified and deny and minimize their abuse. They are usually insanely jealous and accuse their partner of having an affair for no reason.
You need help for YOUR issues before the marital problems can be addressed.
I get another 2-3 people berating me for insulting my wife's vagina, also out of context.
There was nothing out of context about it. You were beyond insulting, but you are still trying to defend it as having been justified somehow. Not taking responsibility for yourself, your reactions, your responses, etc. Is not cleaning up your side of the street.
She wasn't interested in talking with me, made it clear so no I didn't last night but I did with a sorry card in the morning, a sorry ecard a couple hours later. I sent her that text hoping it would solicit a response, didn't work. Got home but the silence was deafening so I grabbed some tea and read the book. This morning is mostly silence.
It's probably time to quit saying sorry. All you're doing is reminding her of your insensitivity.
Look at the suggested message I gave you again, please. It's very important. Notice that it is not even about your clueless comment? It's not about that at all! It's a positive comment of admiration.
Listen, Hill, your wife has a tough job to put up with you. You have got to understand that and believe it, and you have got to let her know that you appreciate it and admire her for doing it.
I mean ... you subjected her to some pretty shocking and insensitive remarks when you went off on your flight of fancy. You reacted from emotion, impulsively, without focusing on a plan, without thinking about how it was going to affect her. You sound like the kind of guy who tends to verbally leap before you look. You can learn to calm that down, but until you do SHE'S GOT A BIG LOAD TO CARRY. Thank her for carrying it.
Even if your wife is "not interested in talking," you can probably still walk up to her and say:
Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me.
She will probably listen to that. She may not believe you really feel this way, which is fine. But she will probably listen, and she will probably start watching to see evidence if you really feel this way.
She needs to feel appreciated, Hill. What are you doing to accomplish that? What ENs are you meeting, and how? What are you doing nice for her, lately?
So, let me see if this is straight
You send her a text, she doesn't respond.
4 hours later, she sends you an e-mail.
You respond, she responds, you respond, she responds.
And, again, you are baited into an argument, and YOU ENTER IT WILLINGLY.
In my reply, I highlighted in red where she said "We will talk when you get home."
Hello?
At that point, it's a simple response; "Ok, dear. I apologize, we will talk about it when you get home. How is your day going so far?"
Disengage the argument, change the subject... anything but continue it on. I don't care if she is baiting you into that conversation, when it is going to be a fight, you have the choice to not engage. So... DON'T.
The angry silent treatment is... a setup, and just as bad for
"punishing" or "controlling" behavior, though the ladies won't call out on that one if it's one of their own favorite tactics.
And there IS a difference between not conversing and the silent treatment.
So, in that sense, kudos to you for not falling into it. The silent treatment is often employed as a way to bait an argument.
"I'm mad, so I'm not going to talk to you! Hmph!"
Okay, then... I'm uh... gonna go read a book. Good luck with that not talking thing!
Grace and Hilltopper, instead of spinning your wheels discussing a SPECIFIC conflict on this board, which is a distraction from learning the skills to resolve conflict on your own, please take the time instead to read this article by Dr Harley:
How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage
So, let me see if this is straight
You send her a text, she doesn't respond.
4 hours later, she sends you an e-mail.
You respond, she responds, you respond, she responds.
And, again, you are baited into an argument, and YOU ENTER IT WILLINGLY.
In my reply, I highlighted in red where she said "We will talk when you get home."
Hello?
At that point, it's a simple response; "Ok, dear. I apologize, we will talk about it when you get home. How is your day going so far?"
Disengage the argument, change the subject... anything but continue it on. I don't care if she is baiting you into that conversation, when it is going to be a fight, you have the choice to not engage. So... DON'T.
The angry silent treatment is... a setup, and just as bad for
"punishing" or "controlling" behavior, though the ladies won't call out on that one if it's one of their own favorite tactics.
And there IS a difference between not conversing and the silent treatment.
So, in that sense, kudos to you for not falling into it. The silent treatment is often employed as a way to bait an argument.
"I'm mad, so I'm not going to talk to you! Hmph!"
Okay, then... I'm uh... gonna go read a book. Good luck with that not talking thing!
A sucker is born every minute! Thanks for reminding me of this, I need to better more aware of what is occurring and avoid it at all costs. I think calling Steve for coaching is in our very near future, gotta pay the mortgage first, but then after that it should be a problem. How far out does he usually schedule calls? I also plan on listening to MB Radio to and from work each day to get some insight and focus on more of the positive stuff.
Ok, I want to additionally back ML here;
It may be a good idea for you two to step back from the forums for a bit.
Let's not post conflicts any further.
This post is going on both of your threads.
Shopping list;
1 - 3 Ring Binder
1 - 3 Hole punch
2 - Highlighters
Make sure your printer has ink and paper.
Print the suggested articles, and read them
separately, highlighter in hand. As you read through, highlight the portions you feel relevant to your marriage, and make marginal rotations.
After each of you have read the article and made your marks and notations, go over them
together.
Then file the completed articles in your binder.
Your binder should also include;
The Policy of Undivided Attention Read it as the other articles, and sign off on it.
The Policy of Radical Honesty Again, read it, highlight and notate, each sign off. Include the sections on Emotional Honesty, Historical Honesty, Current Honesty, and Future Honesty.
The Policy of Joint Agreement(PoJA). Same as the other two policies.
Work no more than 1-2 articles, concepts, or policies per day, and follow it with pleasant UA time.
You might also include the article for each Emotional Need and each Love Buster.
You can do your emotional need and love buster questionnaires, and file them in your "marriage binder" as well.
Set an increment of time after which you will review or redo the questionnaires.
For instance, do them today, then again in one month, then three months after that.
As you eliminate Love Busters and meet each others Emotional Needs, you will see the answers on them evolve, and the order of importance of those needs may shift.
In the case of my FWW and I, when we first completed them in August 2010, SF was #3. It is no longer even in my top 5. Do note, however, that SF is one of the 4 intimate emotional needs to be met during UA time - which also includes Affection, Conversation, and Recreational Companionship.
Your posts from that point should begin to address how to integrate the concepts, and how to use those concepts to address conflicts.
Time to get to work!
We got on his schedule within a couple of days, and we had a tight schedule to work in when we would both be home and kids wouldn't. I know you can't do the 'no kid' thing. Ours typically went where we would both be on the phone during the first ten minutes and the last ten minutes, and surprise, the calls often go much longer than expected. I don't think we had one in six months that went under 70 minutes. Steve is awesome in that he does not say, hey, time's up, gotta run, ttyl. He finishes. He's awesome smart and a NO BS kind of guy.
Is the baby sleeping through the night yet? Has your wife been able to rest enough to recover
don't know if this applies in Hilltopper's case, but just for the record... and I have friends who also had this experience, so I'm not the only one...my ex thought my son was sleeping through the night in his first month. I nursed him for over a year and I can tell ya, he didn't start sleeping through the night until about month 6-7 when we introduced solid food. But my ex would brag about how his son was sleeping. What was really happening, is, my ex was sleeping so soundly he didn't hear the baby. :-)
heh, not to add fuel...my now 9yo didn't sleep more than two hours at a time until he was 9mos old, and I'm pretty certain that I got pregnant with dd the night my H finally got up to tend him after I'd screamed at him that I was going to DIE OF EXHAUSTION if I didn't get a break and I PLANNED TO TAKE HIM WITH ME IF HE DIDN'T GO GET THAT SCREAMING CHILD THIS INSTANT. I was THAT grateful.
lol. funny now, but man, not at all funny at the time.
Thankfully, the rest of them ranged from 1/2 to three months on all-night sleeping.
I haven't heard any complaints about Hill being non-involved, so I just share that as a 'crazy woman' story.
Is the baby sleeping through the night yet? Has your wife been able to rest enough to recover
don't know if this applies in Hilltopper's case, but just for the record... and I have friends who also had this experience, so I'm not the only one...my ex thought my son was sleeping through the night in his first month. I nursed him for over a year and I can tell ya, he didn't start sleeping through the night until about month 6-7 when we introduced solid food. But my ex would brag about how his son was sleeping. What was really happening, is, my ex was sleeping so soundly he didn't hear the baby. :-)
Baby has been excellent sleeps from about 7pm till 4am or so. Feeds a bit then falls back asleep till about 630am. We're both up during that time as I'm an extremely light sleeper so I hear everything. The children wear both of us out, not just my wife. I cut off an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening from work. The hour in the morning is taking care of the big kids and getting daughter to school each day. The hour in the evening is to come home early, give my wife a breather, and make everyone dinner. We do a lot of things right and have for a long time, but the big one that has brought us to this point is neglecting our marriage entirely. I do it, she does it, period and I'm sure it is unbelievably common.
We spoke a bit this morning about "forward motion" and not posting every little reaction on these forums. It is a great decision(POJA kind) so that we can make some progress with our marriage. I think you'll find that both my wife and I are much more reasonable than has been portrayed by our behavior and responses to our behavior on this forum. We kind of chuckle at the level of intensity of some of the other members that exceeds that of my wife and I!
I love it when POJA is used ... Good job Hill. It will get easier the more you practice it.
[We spoke a bit this morning about "forward motion" and not posting every little reaction on these forums. It is a great decision(POJA kind) so that we can make some progress with our marriage. I think you'll find that both my wife and I are much more reasonable than has been portrayed by our behavior and responses to our behavior on this forum. We kind of chuckle at the level of intensity of some of the other members that exceeds that of my wife and I!
You will be ok if you stick to the LESSONS and avoid posting conflicts. That is a disaster! You did great in your "POJA!"
Ok so UA is a big problem for us. Not only do we have an infant that is still breast feeding, but our daily kids and work schedules mean we only get UA at night after 8pm which means were both exhausted typically. This is not the ideal situation to focus but I guess it will have to do. 20 hours is an average of almost 3 hours a day. Currently we get about an hour to two hours at night exclusively watching our favorite shows on TV. Yes I know this is not the best thing to cultivate our EN's but I'm just being honest about what is truthfully going on. So I guess we are spending our time watching other people on reality shows and other stuff and not learning about and enjoying each other, I get it not remotely healthy, uggggh. I'm not surprised at all! I remember back when we were dating(no kids), we'd usually go to dinner, then the bookstore, get wine and snackies with no tv, hang out, cuddle, and of course lots of SF! Go figure we were hot for each other and madly in love. Fast forward 8 years, now we don't do any of those things, and our recreational activity revolves around spending time with other couples with kids our age as well. It is clear to me this needs to change like yesterday. I know its not that many of you haven't told us this, it is more there was so many things we were told to "do" or "not do" it was hard to prioritize and we just ignored that one and postponed it for later. We'll have to come up with a POJA on how to do this as it means our current nightly habits and social arrangements will have to change in order to make our marriage any kind of a priority in our lives. Sounds simple enough so why am I feeling intimidated about it right now?
We'll have to come up with a POJA on how to do this as it means our current nightly habits and social arrangements will have to change in order to make our marriage any kind of a priority in our lives. Sounds simple enough so why am I feeling intimidated about it right now?
You are right, you need to find a way to make this happen. You can see the result of putting your marriage LAST. That is not good for your kids. What is best for your kids is to have parents who are in love, because that produces a secure marriage.
TV does not count as UA time. You can count it, but it will not achieve what you are trying to achieve. It should be deducted. I would start hiring babysitters 3 to 4 times a week and find ways to make this work. If you can find a way to cut corners on UA time, I applaud you. But I have been here for 10 years, am in a romantic marriage and have not found a way to do it. Like Dr Harley says:
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."
It's incredible how many couples have tried to talk me out of their spending more time together. They begin by trying to convince me that it's impossible. Then they go on to the argument that it's impractical. But in the end, they usually agree that without time for undivided attention, they cannot re-create the love they once had for each other.
And that's my point. Unless you and your spouse schedule time each week for undivided attention, it will be impossible to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So to help you and your spouse clear space in your schedule for each other, I encourage you to follow
The Policy of Undivided Attention:
Give your spouse your undivided attention
a minimum of fifteen hours each week,
using the time to meet the emotional needs of
affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation, and recreational companionship.
First, I recommend that you learn to be together without your children. This can be very difficult for many couples, especially when children are very young. They don't think that children interfere with their privacy. To them, an evening with their children is privacy. While they know they can't make love with children around, the presence of children prevents much more than sex. When children are present, they interfere with affection and intimate conversation, two very vital needs in marriage. Besides, affection and intimate conversation usually lead to lovemaking, and without them, you will find that your lovemaking suffers.
But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again.
Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other.
Caring for Children Means
Caring for Each OtherWillard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.
Children desperately need parents who stay married to each other, and love each other. Their future depends on it. Yet, their parents are very likely to lose their love for each other after they arrive, because they forget why they married.
They didn't marry to raise children -- they married to meet each other's intimate emotional needs. And the presence of children tends to make them think that they don't have time and energy to meet those needs anymore. When that happens, they lose their primary motive to be married -- their love for each other.
A man and woman usually decide to marry because they have formed a very successful romantic relationship -- they are in love with each other and are meeting each other's intimate emotional needs. They want to make that romantic relationship last a lifetime, so they marry. At the time, they are optimistic about keeping their love for each other alive, and they don't expect anything to threaten that love -- least of all, children. But if they were to understand how their love was created, and how it is sustained, they would immediately see why children are such a risk.
The two essential ingredients of a romantic relationship -- being in love and meeting intimate emotional needs -- are inseparable. A man and woman love each other because they meet each other's intimate emotional needs, and they meet each other's intimate emotional needs because they love each other. If either one of those factors suffers, the other suffers as well. That's why it's relatively difficult to keep a romantic relationship on track -- it's very fragile.
If living conditions make the meeting of intimate emotional needs more difficult or even impossible to provide, the love a couple has for each other is at risk. They usually don't see their loss of love coming, because they think their love is based on chemistry (they are made for each other) or their willingness to be in love (their love for each other is a decision) -- factors they think guarantee a lifetime of love. But what really sustains love in marriage is neither of those. It is their effectiveness in meeting each other's intimate emotional needs.
continued here
Wife and I declined another offer to hang out with some other friends tonight. In fact we declined two offers that normally we would have accommodated. Its not because we don't want to go hang out with friends, its that we need to be smart and spend that time together. Tentatively we are putting kids down at 730, drinking tea, and reading the workbook, then maybe some scrabble on a Friday night. She asked me about her running Sat morning, I told her the truth that I felt this was not a good idea because it would postpone us spending time together on a morning where nobody works and there is no school. She said, "ok how about I get up really early?", I said sure. At this point I'll have a positive attitude and see if she'll honor that commitment, because if she has a hard time waking up and goes running anyways, that would be a massive LB on a couple of levels. I'm gonna make sure we both go to sleep early tonight so that it is a bit easier for her.
How are the finances?
Go buy a baby jogger stroller, and start thinking about running together.
Improving health and fitness while improving your marriage?
Win/win.
Or, would there be any chance of joining something like the YMCA?
DH and I can't run together (I'm a 5.7mph pace and he's a 4.2mph pace, it just doesn't work. But, we can certainly run side by side on different treadmills.
And, the YMCAs around here have childcare for free.
Or, would there be any chance of joining something like the YMCA?
DH and I can't run together (I'm a 5.7mph pace and he's a 4.2mph pace, it just doesn't work. But, we can certainly run side by side on different treadmills.
And, the YMCAs around here have childcare for free.
We are members and we used to go all the time before baby. I have bad knees from playing basketball my whole life. I've expressed lifting weights together but she doesn't want to. Not a huge deal, and I understand that. We used to walk quite a bit while pushing stroller which was nice, but she is into something more intense.
Why can't you walk on one treadmill and she run on the other? Or on ellipticals next to each other?
Or swimming? Water Aerobics? One on One Basketball? Table Tennis?
There's so many things you can do together, and on the treadmill/bike/elliptical machines you don't have to go the same speed.
And, it's free babysitting. LOL
She's open to the working out, gonna investigate it. That would be incredibly sexy and meaningful on my end. Wife might take a bit to come around though.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
Hey, Hilltopper:
Stop stewing. Your wife says it's a real problem for her, so knock it off, Bud!
Apparently this is still a present problem. She can see when you're feeling this way.
Let me tell you what causes the stewing: it's when you feel like your wife should be doing something, and she's not. Or she's doing it a different way, or she's doing something you think she shouldn't do. In other words, you feel just a little bit like you've got a right to control her, or you are pointed in that direction.
Have more patience with your wife, friend, or this is not going to work. She is very much on board with the concepts here and with posting here and with working with your marriage. She is going to need some time to learn everything. Be patient with her.
You are going to need her to be patient with you, too. You probably need to realize that you are not an easy man to live with and have a romantic relationship with. You should probably express some gratitude to your wife for dealing with that. I'll bet it would go a long way.
If you expect her to be patient with you for your faults and slips (you have some of those, right?) then you are probably going to need to extend the same kind of patience to her. New habits take time to form.
So, what are you doing nice for your wife today?
She's open to the working out, gonna investigate it. That would be incredibly sexy and meaningful on my end. Wife might take a bit to come around though.
PoJA workout!
Brainstorm ideas for how you can work out together at a pace and/or intensity that would be pleasant for you both.
Multiple solutions!
Work through those solutions to find the one that you both
enthusiastically agree on.
Don't waffle, don't "compromise." It's
enthusiastic agreement.
I won't whack you on that one, as I'm guilty of just giving in to whatever the wife wants, and it's her that really pushes me - "You don't seem too enthusiastic..."
No stewing bro but when I mentioned this my wife mentioned why you likely wrote this. Wife sent me an unprovoked stinger cause kids were a little rough so I gave the "huh I don't get it face". We worked through it in two mins flat, learned some things, and are enjoying lovely day with kids. Thx for staying on me I understand where and why you are coming from!
so I gave the "huh I don't get it face".
Don't do that any more.
So, what are you doing nice for your wife today?
Hey, Hill, this was not a rhetorical question....
Hill, you two have a chemical issue at this point. Running and weight lifting are great to help reset. UA isn't all day. When would you be cool with her taking some time Saturday? I agree with HHH, take the baby in a stroller and leave the kids at the neighbor and take a stroll together, too. Not either -or. What do you think?
so I gave the "huh I don't get it face".
Don't do that any more.
Yeah tell me about it, this is bigger than you think. We talked it through some more and realized that my faces are a big problem and she never figured it out until this morning. On the flip side when she says things that I take literally but she meant another way it causes problems as well. She asked if I could stop the faces and I said, "sure"! I asked if she could say what she means and mean what she says, and she said "sure"! So no more faces for Hill and communicate clearly for tgrace. Bing, bang, boom, two more LB's to put to sleep.
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.
I sent her three complaints I had and asked her to send me hers yesterday morning. This was specific to your advice you gave me on the "Love Bank" thread. I haven't even mentioned it since I wrote it. One of the specific issues I addressed was coming up with a POJA about appropriate times to get back to a text, email, phone call, etc. Technically we haven't agreed to an acceptable time on any of it, and I haven't mentioned it all day. I find it tough to initiate repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, we've had a great day, just having a hard time understanding the lack of urgency is all and want some insight.
By the way, dday to kids asleep 2 hours! Then its hubby/wife UA time, very excited. Don't take the comment above as "stewing", especially you Markos.
Ask her for a time to discuss it. I found it a pain in my heart to have my calls ignored, and now that my H actually takes them, my urgency about them is so much less. So answering you will actually work in both of your favors. You'll be less anxious and less likely to call or text, she'll be interrupted less, you'll both be happy. Come to the discussion with an ideal that would make you happy, ask her to come with her ideal, and negotiate a workable solution. Ihad the benefit of a Harley telling my spouse to answer the phone already! You may want to do that.
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?
Ask her for a time to discuss it.
And be prepared (for any issue, in general) not to resolve all conflicts immediately with one discussion. It is very important to plan for "incubation time." The first solutions you come up with will not be your best solutions. Carry a notepad (or mobile device) with you to write down ideas on all the time, and write down ideas for a week once you've both shared your perspectives. Then discuss the issue again in a week and look for ideas that both of you think would be great.
Hill, have you read this article yet:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.htmlPOJA is a noun. FGSN is the verb that gets you there.
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?
CWMI is right, Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to make it as safe as possible for you to share complaints and information with each other. Your accounts in each other's love banks are low right now. Your main goal is to build them back up; staying within the structure of those forms is a good way to try to pass information without starting a fight.
Ask her for a time to discuss it.
And be prepared (for any issue, in general) not to resolve all conflicts immediately with one discussion. It is very important to plan for "incubation time." The first solutions you come up with will not be your best solutions. Carry a notepad (or mobile device) with you to write down ideas on all the time, and write down ideas for a week once you've both shared your perspectives. Then discuss the issue again in a week and look for ideas that both of you think would be great.
Hill, have you read this article yet:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.htmlPOJA is a noun. FGSN is the verb that gets you there.
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?
CWMI is right, Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to make it as safe as possible for you to share complaints and information with each other. Your accounts in each other's love banks are low right now. Your main goal is to build them back up; staying within the structure of those forms is a good way to try to pass information without starting a fight.
Yes I've read that link actually. Good night last night, good day today. No "faces" thus far as I'm very aware of it and my wife made a point on a few occasions to communicate a little more clearly to make sure whatever she said was not interpreted differently. Lovely day, lovely day.
Great job, Hill! Keep up the good work!
Wow when it "clicks" it "clicks", things are going well. There is a lot of work to be done and I want to be aware of that feeling of not trying and losing some progress as a result. LB's are mostly gone right now and we'll keep doing that. EN's are better but we have a lot of work to do here. More to come.
Affection is still not good from my wife. This was my #1 EN and she knows that but yet when I hug her, I initiate always and she has this habit of dropping her arms to her side when I do. The other thing she does is do the "push off" when we hug as if to say "Ok, 3 seconds is enough". Body language is pretty powerful. When we kiss it is only a peck on the lips because, "my breath is bad". When we snuggle on the couch, unless I say, "lets spoon", she'll like down by my feet. Obviously no SF either, but that I realize will take some time. Clearly affection doesn't come easy for her and I don't know if that is how she is with everyone or just me. I don't think it is selfish to want my wife to want to be affectionate with me rather than going through the motions right? The no affection thing isn't a post-baby thing, its been going on for a long time. I plan on asking her about affection in general and see how she feels about it and why her body language speaks volumes. It hurts and creates no security on my end in this relationship. The strange thing is affection is one of her top 5 EN's.
Patience, Hill, patience. The first thing you are going to need is to strongly reinforce your patience.
Your wife will feel more affectionate after she receives a LOT more care from you. A LOT!
Hill, we don't have to look too far back to see a number of love busters on your part. You've busted some holes in your account in your wife's love bank, and it's going to take a little while to fill it back up. And of course, filling is going to be impossible if you continue to make holes through love busters.
That is why I keep encouraging you to focus on making large love bank deposits, and I keep asking the question (which I notice you don't often answer): "What are you planning to do nice for your wife today?"
Hill, we don't have to look too far back to see a number of love busters on your part. You've busted some holes in your account in your wife's love bank, and it's going to take a little while to fill it back up. And of course, filling is going to be impossible if you continue to make holes through love busters.
That is why I keep encouraging you to focus on making large love bank deposits, and I keep asking the question (which I notice you don't often answer): "What are you planning to do nice for your wife today?"
I'm not dodging the question about doing nice things for my wife. Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it. I got out some rolls and crackers and we ate it together. The reaction is what I want to point, she appears indifferent to nice things almost as if she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of a complement or thank you. I got her a very nice bottle of wine to drink at my parents house because she loves pinot noir and my parents don't carry that. She liked the wine, but again, no reaction. I'm not looking for her to grab my hand and run upstairs to the bedroom by any means, but her body language and comments appear to me as her being either indifferent or oblivious to the attempt. I'll be doing something nice again today after work and I hope that my efforts are having an impact but that she isn't expressing herself when they do.
As far as LB's go, none for three days, and on a few occasions when I wasn't certain I asked her and she said no. Our avoidance of LB's on both sides has much, much better because we know what to look for.
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Yup.
In fact, stop expecting
anything. Just do.
Write her a nice little note, and include things that she has done in the past that felt affectionate to you, that you liked.
I had to write FWW a list of affectionate gestures, because somehow she had brainfarted affection away.
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Blind faith is tough when your experiences and history tell you otherwise. I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me. I hope this confidence and belief changes over time however so don't give up on me. It is very difficult for me knowing that I can't do anything but work on myself and let the chips fall as they may.
I'm not dodging the question about doing nice things for my wife. Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it. I got out some rolls and crackers and we ate it together. The reaction is what I want to point, she appears indifferent to nice things almost as if she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of a complement or thank you. I got her a very nice bottle of wine to drink at my parents house because she loves pinot noir and my parents don't carry that. She liked the wine, but again, no reaction. I'm not looking for her to grab my hand and run upstairs to the bedroom by any means, but her body language and comments appear to me as her being either indifferent or oblivious to the attempt. I'll be doing something nice again today after work and I hope that my efforts are having an impact but that she isn't expressing herself when they do.
Hill, you are doing great. Don't stop. Keep doing nice things for her, because it will have an effect. Your job is to become a nice guy. HER nice guy. A guy who cares for her. All the time, no matter what.
Here is a post that was shared with me awhile back about what is happening. It contains some comments a previous Marriage Builders poster received from Steve Harley over the phone:
We also need to remain nice and communicate with our Ws. We should not LB or DJ no matter what. We should work towards giving affection to our Ws. Yes, I know you'll may say that W will not let me whatever..., but SH means the kind of affection that is under the radar. Things like notes, gestures, maybe little presents etc.. go a long way. His theory is called "rocks in a river" and it is something I hold onto EVERYDAY!
Rocks in a River: You find yourself on the bank of a wide river. It is too wide to jump across, and yet you still need to cross it. What do you do? You start picking up rocks and throwing them into the river. (These rocks are each small affectionate thing you do for your W). For the first 499 rocks, you see the rock hit the water, and then it dissapears. These rocks are sinking and landing on the bottom of the river. Eventually you get to rock #500 and it hits the water and part of it is sticking up above the surface. You now realize you are getting somewhere. You can finally see progress. For the first 499 rocks, you knew they were stacking up, but you had no proof other than common sense telling you that they were building up. We have to approach our relationships now as if every piece of affection is one of those rocks. We will not see any progress until a number of rocks have been thrown. However, just because we are not seeing these first 499 rocks does not mean they are not having an impact. Believe that they are, because they are.
(Original here, but it's embedded in a longer post:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659425#Post1659425)
Keep tossing rocks in the river!
As far as LB's go, none for three days, and on a few occasions when I wasn't certain I asked her and she said no. Our avoidance of LB's on both sides has much, much better because we know what to look for.
Rather than asking her, stick to Dr. Harley's worksheets. Ask her if she'd be willing to fill out the SD, DJ, and AO worksheets and give them to you every week. If you don't get any one week, then ask her if she has a worksheet for you. Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to help keep you guys from getting into fights over it. And you need to avoid fights at all costs!
It sounds like you are making great progress. She may not react for awhile, and that is OKAY!
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Blind faith is tough when your experiences and history tell you otherwise.
Whoa, nobody's pointing you toward blind faith! Have you reread the Basic Concepts recently? Specifically, the Love Bank? The Love Bank model is not blind faith, it's based on tons of evidence acquired through Dr. Harley's clinical psychology practice. It has worked for literally thousands of couples, on this forum, through books, through Dr. Harley's counseling and practices that followed the same principles.
Every thing you do has an effect on your wife. That is the Love Bank model. No blind faith here; solid decades of Dr. Harley's experience.
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
Not after three days, no!
It is very difficult for me knowing that I can't do anything but work on myself and let the chips fall as they may.
I know what you mean. A lot of men find this hard to deal with. We want to fix things, we want to make things get better, we want to force a solution.
And if we are not careful, that desire will lead us to do things that are seriously damaging to our relationships with our wives.
You are going to have to relinquish control and come to grips with the fact that it is not all up to you. And you are going to have to let your logic and reason dictate a rational plan that you will stick to (making love bank deposits), rather than letting your emotions drive your actions.
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
I'm guessing she's not feeling any confidence that your efforts to fill her love bank are going to have any sticking power either.
Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it.
Do you want a ticker-tape parade? You've done a nice thing. Whoopee. I have no doubt she's done nice things for you in the past that have been unappreciated, as well. So now that you've done one (or two or three) it's supposed to be all hearts and roses and "gee what a swell guy"?
Unless you are a master actor (and based on what I've read, I really do not think you are inscrutable), your wife now knows that her reaction wasn't
good enough for you.
Mozarella Napolean +1
Implicit Criticism -1
As a lovebank-drained wife, I'll tell you there's a strong undercurrent of "prove it". And when the balance is so low, the burden of proof is is awfully high.
Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience.
Hill, there are some great suggestions here for you to incorporate into your plan to make love bank deposits:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.htmlIt doesn't have to be expensive fancy wine every night. The little things count, too.
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
I'm guessing she's not feeling any confidence that your efforts to fill her love bank are going to have any sticking power either.
Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it.
Do you want a ticker-tape parade? You've done a nice thing. Whoopee. I have no doubt she's done nice things for you in the past that have been unappreciated, as well. So now that you've done one (or two or three) it's supposed to be all hearts and roses and "gee what a swell guy"?
Unless you are a master actor (and based on what I've read, I really do not think you are inscrutable), your wife now knows that her reaction wasn't
good enough for you.
Mozarella Napolean +1
Implicit Criticism -1
As a lovebank-drained wife, I'll tell you there's a strong undercurrent of "prove it". And when the balance is so low, the burden of proof is is awfully high.
Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience.
What implicit criticism? I didn't say a thing nor give any reaction at all to her at all, I simply pulled out the bread and crackers to enjoy the moment. Sorry, do you know my wife? Furthermore do you know that she feels that her reactions are not good enough for me? That was a pretty big assumption. There is a big difference between a reaction not good enough and no reaction at all, wouldn't you agree? And as a lovebank-drained husband the sense of urgency to create love in my marriage is very much present.
I see you have the situation well under control and that my perspective is of no value to you. I wish you all the best in recovering your marriage.
Fantastic article and yes I specifically tell my wife I love her multiple times per day. I hug her, kiss her on the way out the door. I send her a text once per day saying, "Have I told you I love you today?" I do the dishes most nights, I bath the kids frequently so she doesn't have to. I may not have painted the appropriate picture as it pertains to affection. My affection for my wife is overflowing. I come from an affectionate family is this is just how I do things. From your perspective if all I do is one nice thing per day and expect some great reaction I totally understand where you are coming from, but this is not at all what is going on. I feel compelled to kiss and hug my wife and tell her I love her, not because a book told me too, but because I want to. Does that change things a bit more? If you show love and affection to someone all the time and you get none or very little in return how should I feel? My affection is not an act and it certainly isn't full of conditions that have to be met. My frustrations and concerns have one source, and that is to have my wife feel love for me and show that love.
Hill,
Markos probably understands where you are coming from more than anyone else. He is a very emotional, affectionate man, and needs affection very much. Affection comes easy for him.
No one expects you to not feel hurt when your wife is not affectionate. It does hurt. I don't believe your affection is false or an act to get something.
BUT, when markos engaged in horrible LB toward me (especially the AOs and DJs), my desire to be affectionate with him disappeared. Why would I be affectionate to a man who hurt me? Your wife is withdrawn and non-affectionate because you have HURT her.
Keep doing what you're doing. It is getting through, although it doesn't look like it at this point.
Keep listening to Markos. He's been right where you are. Very recently, in fact.
Hill,
Markos probably understands where you are coming from more than anyone else. He is a very emotional, affectionate man, and needs affection very much. Affection comes easy for him.
No one expects you to not feel hurt when your wife is not affectionate. It does hurt. I don't believe your affection is false or an act to get something.
BUT, when markos engaged in horrible LB toward me (especially the AOs and DJs), my desire to be affectionate with him disappeared. Why would I be affectionate to a man who hurt me? Your wife is withdrawn and non-affectionate because you have HURT her.
Keep doing what you're doing. It is getting through, although it doesn't look like it at this point.
Keep listening to Markos. He's been right where you are. Very recently, in fact.
I am listenting to Markos, he is my right hand advisor!
I know you'll say it is because we are just different people, but why then do I not really withdraw when my wife AO's, SD's, and DJ's me? I mean I do for like an hour, but then I really don't enjoy the crunchy environment, and typically pursue her. She can withdraw for days if need be and it pains me.
Hilltopper1972,
I was in your shoes a year ago after my husband's affair, I was in Plan A and was doing all the work, I did everything I could, I said what I wanted to say, I made our home a safe place for him to be........
I listened, I cooked for him I told him I understood his feelings and I was accountable for my part.......
I was lucky that he would allow me to hug him every day........he didn't hug back for a long time, but eventually I think he also looked forward to that physical contact between us, it felt right ...........
I would touch him when I walked by..........I would touch his arm when I spoke to him.........I would look right at him when I spoke, it took about 4 months of withdrawal from the OW and all my love deposits to turn things around, now it's him that is working harder than I am in this recovery..........It takes one persons strength and leadership in a situation like this that can turn things around, right now you have to love enough for the two of you.........
Go for it, that's what I did, I looked at it as an opportunity to have the relationship I wanted and I wasn't just lying down and letting it all fall apart.......
I said in the beginning that what the OW didn't take into account in her plan to steal my husband was ME!
All you need is a good solid plan and a lot of patience.........
All the time spent on being a better you and husband will pay off in the end, and look what you will have a woman that will be so madly in love with you. she will be the one making the moves and making you a happy man.....
It does hurt I know I felt that rejection a lot during my process as well........you are strong, keep an eye on the big picture and do what I did, just really enjoy the little bit of physcial you can the hugs, the words........the little touches.....that's good for now..........
Don't rush it, do it right this time..........
jessi
Hilltopper1972,
I was in your shoes a year ago after my husband's affair, I was in Plan A and was doing all the work, I did everything I could, I said what I wanted to say, I made our home a safe place for him to be........
I listened, I cooked for him I told him I understood his feelings and I was accountable for my part.......
I was lucky that he would allow me to hug him every day........he didn't hug back for a long time, but eventually I think he also looked forward to that physical contact between us, it felt right ...........
I would touch him when I walked by..........I would touch his arm when I spoke to him.........I would look right at him when I spoke, it took about 4 months of withdrawal from the OW and all my love deposits to turn things around, now it's him that is working harder than I am in this recovery..........It takes one persons strength and leadership in a situation like this that can turn things around, right now you have to love enough for the two of you.........
Go for it, that's what I did, I looked at it as an opportunity to have the relationship I wanted and I wasn't just lying down and letting it all fall apart.......
I said in the beginning that what the OW didn't take into account in her plan to steal my husband was ME!
All you need is a good solid plan and a lot of patience.........
All the time spent on being a better you and husband will pay off in the end, and look what you will have a woman that will be so madly in love with you. she will be the one making the moves and making you a happy man.....
It does hurt I know I felt that rejection a lot during my process as well........you are strong, keep an eye on the big picture and do what I did, just really enjoy the little bit of physcial you can the hugs, the words........the little touches.....that's good for now..........
Don't rush it, do it right this time..........
jessi
Wow great story, I'm so happy for you and your H. I see a change in my wife which is good and I'm thrilled to get anything I can get. The "affection blow off" thing as I call it takes the wind out of my sails so easily and I shouldn't let it but I do. Thanks Jessi!
Hill, are you doing the things that your wife said make the greatest impact on filling her LB$?
They should be well spelled out on her ENQ. If making her snacks isn't on there, you're wasting effort on things that don't fill her up.
Have you two reached an agreement on the 'making faces' issue? I don't know that her saying STOP and you saying OKAY is going to cut it, because I'm assuming that you were not intentionally making faces, it was more about not being aware you were. Ask her to tell you EVERY TIME you do it. Perhaps keep a pocket mirror handy, so you can immediately see what she sees...or have her snap a picture, lol. Oftentimes to change an annoying bad habit that is mindlessly done, we need the help of those we annoy.
Hill, are you doing the things that your wife said make the greatest impact on filling her LB$?
They should be well spelled out on her ENQ. If making her snacks isn't on there, you're wasting effort on things that don't fill her up.
Have you two reached an agreement on the 'making faces' issue? I don't know that her saying STOP and you saying OKAY is going to cut it, because I'm assuming that you were not intentionally making faces, it was more about not being aware you were. Ask her to tell you EVERY TIME you do it. Perhaps keep a pocket mirror handy, so you can immediately see what she sees...or have her snap a picture, lol. Oftentimes to change an annoying bad habit that is mindlessly done, we need the help of those we annoy.
I have her list and I've implemented about half of the 13 things she likes. I have plans for some more of the expensive one's next month, so for now just the little things. Its bizarre, she told me what she likes, I do those things, then she behaves indifferent to it anyways? Oh well, I'll guess I'll just have to trust it is doing its job.
We agreed that there is no place for faces in our relationship and it was a massive LB each time I did it. They were not intentional and I'm so glad she figured it out because she could never explain what I did that annoyed her. I stopped the moment she told me, haven't done it since. I'll slip I'm sure here and there but the POJA is "NO FACES!"
Hilltopper,
I am really impressed at your progress. One day at a time! Your doing great! I know it may seem difficult for the first while .. and that your wifes response is not as you hope, but keep working at it .. and eventually she will come around. Her love bank for you is obviously still in the red, but each deposit brings you that much more out of debt.
Sorry I havent been around that much. I needed to step back as I didnt think my advise was being much help. It was similar to what alot of the others who came in after me .. but i think they worded it far better than I did. I realized my own tactics that i used on my wife was not helping you and from that I was stuck on how to continue helping you. I am also very new at advice giving since it was not that long ago i was in your shoes.
How was your easter? Has your wife made any effort or any noticiable changes? even if very small ones? Any progress is great progress.
Keep up the good work! I will chime in ocassionaly if i feel I may have more to contribute. But as of now I think your on the right track after we slapped you around a bit.
MNG
Hilltopper,
I am really impressed at your progress. One day at a time! Your doing great! I know it may seem difficult for the first while .. and that your wifes response is not as you hope, but keep working at it .. and eventually she will come around. Her love bank for you is obviously still in the red, but each deposit brings you that much more out of debt.
Sorry I havent been around that much. I needed to step back as I didnt think my advise was being much help. It was similar to what alot of the others who came in after me .. but i think they worded it far better than I did. I realized my own tactics that i used on my wife was not helping you and from that I was stuck on how to continue helping you. I am also very new at advice giving since it was not that long ago i was in your shoes.
How was your easter? Has your wife made any effort or any noticiable changes? even if very small ones? Any progress is great progress.
Keep up the good work! I will chime in ocassionaly if i feel I may have more to contribute. But as of now I think your on the right track after we slapped you around a bit.
MNG
Thanks for the note. It got heated in this thread as well as my wifes. I think that was part of the process. I have a hard time not expressing my frustration at some of the posters that came here, made up their mind about who I was and what I was all about, and clearly offered nothing of value, just hate. You were not one of those so don't feel bad. My wife and I are doing amazing actually, last night was the best night in a long, long time. We stayed up till midnight just hanging out, talking, and having fun against our better judgement. We've figured out a tremendous amount of stuff in a very short period of time about each other and I've seen dramatic changes in her almost daily. This thread may not be as juicy as it once was, but hey, what needed to happen is happening with my wife and I and it feels good. Thanks again for everything.
I have her list and I've implemented about half of the 13 things she likes. I have plans for some more of the expensive one's next month, so for now just the little things. Its bizarre, she told me what she likes, I do those things, then she behaves indifferent to it anyways? Oh well, I'll guess I'll just have to trust it is doing its job.
We agreed that there is no place for faces in our relationship and it was a massive LB each time I did it. They were not intentional and I'm so glad she figured it out because she could never explain what I did that annoyed her. I stopped the moment she told me, haven't done it since. I'll slip I'm sure here and there but the POJA is "NO FACES!"
I don't know if that's a woman thing, or whatever Hill. The ladies could answer that.
But, I can tell you that my wife is constantly trying to read my face, or more importantly, my
eyes. The dang things give me away - they change color with my mood. Makes sense when you consider thing like blood flow and muscular contraction, or dilation etc effecting the refraction of light in the iris.
Because of this, she totally hates when I wear sunglasses.
Part of it is that she is holding me accountable to be emotionally honest.
You have a feeling, your body reacts, and you make a face, or an expression hits your eyes, and they KNOW "that look." After years of courtship and marriage, they learn to read your face, read your eyes.
Anyway, it's awesome that you guys listed out ideas (for each other, right? you gave her a list, too?). The article here is great, but it's like training wheels. Eventually you are going to have to ride on your own, and having her TELL you how she likes her needs to be met is paramount. Her list represents the links in the bike chain, and without those links you will pedal and go nowhere.
Keep it up!
Your very welcome ... I take it that you guys have progressed from withdrawl... then you moved into conflict (hence the heated 2 threads) then your wife finally joined you in conflict and now your bobbing in and out of intimacy?
I am so glad things are going well for you. Your threads are better off to be less "juicy" becasue that will mean that your gaining ground towards intimacy! Once both spouses are on board it almost takes no time at all .. and once its fully implimented and new habits develop, you guys will be madly in love again and will hardly be able to keep your hands off eachother. I am just glad it didnt take as long for you as it did my wife to come around for me. Now that you got 3 kids have you considered a vasectomy? THAT will really help in the intimacy department especially since you wouldnt have to worry about getting your wife preggo again! THat was one of the best things I ever did for my wife. Did it on a friday ... sat on a bag of frozen peas over the weekend. Wife waited on me for entire weekend and then went back to work on monday. IF your worried about it .. the anticipation was FAR worse than the procedure. If not .. o well . just thought I would throw that in there.
Your doing great Hilltopper. Hopefully your wife will update her thread so we will know how shes doing from her side of the street.
MNG
I have her list and I've implemented about half of the 13 things she likes. I have plans for some more of the expensive one's next month, so for now just the little things. Its bizarre, she told me what she likes, I do those things, then she behaves indifferent to it anyways? Oh well, I'll guess I'll just have to trust it is doing its job.
We agreed that there is no place for faces in our relationship and it was a massive LB each time I did it. They were not intentional and I'm so glad she figured it out because she could never explain what I did that annoyed her. I stopped the moment she told me, haven't done it since. I'll slip I'm sure here and there but the POJA is "NO FACES!"
I don't know if that's a woman thing, or whatever Hill. The ladies could answer that.
But, I can tell you that my wife is constantly trying to read my face, or more importantly, my
eyes. The dang things give me away - they change color with my mood. Makes sense when you consider thing like blood flow and muscular contraction, or dilation etc effecting the refraction of light in the iris.
Because of this, she totally hates when I wear sunglasses.
Part of it is that she is holding me accountable to be emotionally honest.
You have a feeling, your body reacts, and you make a face, or an expression hits your eyes, and they KNOW "that look." After years of courtship and marriage, they learn to read your face, read your eyes.
Anyway, it's awesome that you guys listed out ideas (for each other, right? you gave her a list, too?). The article here is great, but it's like training wheels. Eventually you are going to have to ride on your own, and having her TELL you how she likes her needs to be met is paramount. Her list represents the links in the bike chain, and without those links you will pedal and go nowhere.
Keep it up!
I don't think it is a woman-thing, I think it is a "me thing". I have been told at the office by some staff that occasionally I make them "feel stupid" at times. I never could figure out why, because verbally I don't do it, it is the facial expressions I think. I wear my heart on my sleeve even at work and if I'm annoyed by a question that is very elementary I tend to express a look of annoyance which is wrong. I'm trying to use some of the same MB principles at the office too.
We both have a list and are trying to implement them as best we can to start and I assume this will get easier. I'm working on trying to be more thoughtful and think about things before doing them rather than just going through the motions. An example would be picking out a nice card versus picking out a card that has a special meaning for the two of us. She also likes surprises and I assume this will get easier. I have a lack of confidence in doing romantic things for my wife right now. This perpetuates the problem so I'm making an effort to take the time to think things through and listen carefully to what she is telling me, then react accordingly. I'm getting smarter and have a few tricks up my sleeve which I'll keep to myself.
Your very welcome ... I take it that you guys have progressed from withdrawl... then you moved into conflict (hence the heated 2 threads) then your wife finally joined you in conflict and now your bobbing in and out of intimacy?
I am so glad things are going well for you. Your threads are better off to be less "juicy" becasue that will mean that your gaining ground towards intimacy! Once both spouses are on board it almost takes no time at all .. and once its fully implimented and new habits develop, you guys will be madly in love again and will hardly be able to keep your hands off eachother. I am just glad it didnt take as long for you as it did my wife to come around for me. Now that you got 3 kids have you considered a vasectomy? THAT will really help in the intimacy department especially since you wouldnt have to worry about getting your wife preggo again! THat was one of the best things I ever did for my wife. Did it on a friday ... sat on a bag of frozen peas over the weekend. Wife waited on me for entire weekend and then went back to work on monday. IF your worried about it .. the anticipation was FAR worse than the procedure. If not .. o well . just thought I would throw that in there.
Your doing great Hilltopper. Hopefully your wife will update her thread so we will know how shes doing from her side of the street.
MNG
Yes vasectomy is in the works actually, thanks for the tip. In regards to my wife updated her thread, I hope she does too, I noticed it isn't even on page one anymore. I'm making sure that our little bit of success doesn't make me work less hard at this. I want to be diligent in coming here daily if possible and learning and in the future even helping. The way I see things is that I can get my wife to love me again which is the ultimate goal, or I can try and achieve the greatest marriage on the planet which is even better! Shoot for the stars!
Don't worry too much about her posting. If she is doing the things she needs to be doing, it's all well and good.
Some people just aren't forum people, and that's OK.
Don't worry too much about her posting. If she is doing the things she needs to be doing, it's all well and good.
Some people just aren't forum people, and that's OK.
Yep, you are totally right.
Don't worry too much about her posting. If she is doing the things she needs to be doing, it's all well and good.
Some people just aren't forum people, and that's OK.
Yep, you are totally right.
Hill, a little reading on the pleasure of delayed gratification;
http://artofmanliness.com/2011/03/06/delayed-gratification/
Vasectomy was a great decision for me. Easiest 45 minutes of my life and then a few days of sitting on the couch and drinking beer.
Vasectomy was a great decision for me. Easiest 45 minutes of my life and then a few days of sitting on the couch and drinking beer.
Did wife agree to the vasectomy AND beer drinking? Another fantastic night of avoiding the LB's and meeting each other's needs. It led to some awesome SF and she initiated. What a fun night I must say. I got her some running related stuff on the way home and support her running as long as we agree when and where. I walked in to a perfectly cooked turkey my wife made me for dinner. Kids to bed, more UA, and affection. She mentioned that we can "go to the gym together" after work so I think this is a POJA on working out together, but I must ask because I'm not sure. She had mentioned that we workout different things and I'm aware of that so I'm gonna see if we can agree on what and I don't want her to feel awkward in doing so. The only thing going bad in our lives is staying up WAY too late and being exhausted the next day.
Vasectomy was a great decision for me. Easiest 45 minutes of my life and then a few days of sitting on the couch and drinking beer.
Did wife agree to the vasectomy AND beer drinking? Another fantastic night of avoiding the LB's and meeting each other's needs. It led to some awesome SF and she initiated. What a fun night I must say. I got her some running related stuff on the way home and support her running as long as we agree when and where. I walked in to a perfectly cooked turkey my wife made me for dinner. Kids to bed, more UA, and affection. She mentioned that we can "go to the gym together" after work so I think this is a POJA on working out together, but I must ask because I'm not sure. She had mentioned that we workout different things and I'm aware of that so I'm gonna see if we can agree on what and I don't want her to feel awkward in doing so. The only thing going bad in our lives is staying up WAY too late and being exhausted the next day.
Does the gym offer any type of Aerobic classes? Or, do you have a local MMA dojo that offers a "Combat Cardio" class?
You don't have to do the same resistance training, but a good aerobic program is always a benefit.
Yes she was enthusiastic to both. You won't be able to pick anything up for the first few days, so keep that in mind.
My wife and I go to the gym together; howhowever, we font work out together because she wants machines and I want free weights.
t/j to kiltedthrower, can I ask why you prefer free weights?
My wife and I go to the gym together; howhowever, we font work out together because she wants machines and I want free weights.
We just negotiate what exercises to do, and always either do the same exercise or something next to each other, because our whole point is the UA time, and the exercise is secondary to that.
Depending on the proximity of local parks, or the amount of back yard you have - you could always assemble a "farm boy" home gym consisting of;
2 30ft lengths of 3" rope
1 Large tractor tire
1 10-20lb sledge hammer
1 Keg
Find plans and assemble a chinup bar.
All that, and who needs a gym?
t/j to kiltedthrower, can I ask why you prefer free weights?
I'm not KT, but the free weights tone better and make the support muscles work that the weight machines don't.
And, hubby loves that I'll do free weights with him when he's in town.
When he's out of town I stick to the girly weight machines.
t/j to kiltedthrower, can I ask why you prefer free weights?
I could write on teh benefits of machines, but for my goals free weights work better. My workout is typically divided into 2-3 different portions. I have a strength portion in which I primarily concern myself with Olympic lifts, front squat, back squat, deadlift, push press, or dumbbell press. You can't recreate these movements accurately on a machine like you can free weights.
My next workout portion is typically very high intensity metabolism work. As an example, yesterdays workout involved pairing front squats with jumping rope. Or I might run a triple set of burpees (you can google these), dumbbell swings, and chin ups. It�s almost like cardio but with weights. Basically cardio or aerobic work is getting your heart rate up for X amount of time. I can do the same affect but with weights and create an anaerobic environment that burns more calories over all for a longer duration of time than getting bored on a treadmill for 45-60 minutes. And the benefit is you get more done in less time. Check out crossfit.com or crossfitfootball.com for an example of the type of workouts I do (I don�t follow their workouts but mine are similar or based on a lot of the stuff they do). This type of stuff really helps with throwing competitions, playing indoor soccer, and just being really fit. I can get what would normally take me 45-60 minutes done in under 30 minutes. And when you set stuff against the clock, you work faster and harder.
Since I�m now into week 2 of a 12 week competition (like the last one) it behooves me to create as much of a calorie burning environment as possible while building muscle. Doing the machine circuit setup won�t really help me as most if it involves sitting or lying down. But machines are great if you really want to isolate a muscle.
Now I do use machines. I�ll use leg press as an assistance movement after squats. I�ll use the bicep curl machine to if I really want to emphasize the biceps and not worry about engaging other muscles. And I really like the cable machine. One of my other issues is I get really bored sitting on a machine and counting out 10 reps (or how many ever reps you use) and then going to the next machine and doing the same thing.
I�ve also noticed that women �specially love the high intensity stuff. Typically with the female clients I have, I�ll have 1-2 days of typical gym work with a mix of machines and free weights that will take about 30ish minutes with middle reps (no high reps for �toning� There�s no such thing as �toning�. I know what people mean when they say this but tone refers to muscle tone or tonus.) And then I�ll give them a 10 minute �finisher� where they kick their heart rate up into high gear. This helps get them in better shape and get their strength up and some muscle building. Then 1-2 days of real high intensity against the clock type stuff�they usually almost always love these days so much more because it�s challenging and keeps them excited. And the other days gets them excited because they go �Wow! Look! I�m now pressing X lbs and when I started I was only doing X lbs!� Guys do also to some extent like the high intensity stuff but not quite as much as a lot of women do. In fact, if you go and look over at the crossfit.com site, you�ll see a lot of women.
Okay. I think I went off into left field for a simple question lol
We just negotiate what exercises to do, and always either do the same exercise or something next to each other, because our whole point is the UA time, and the exercise is secondary to that.
Sometimes I think it'd be nice if we did also. But she has absolutely no desire to do my type of workouts and I'd be bored to tears if I did her machine circuit. But I think it's awesome you two have worked this healthy habit into UA time.
One time I was trying to show my wife how to do a clean and jerk. Well, I didn't get my head out of the way in time and smashed the bar into my chin and chipped a nice chunk off one of my teeth. She laughed and said, "Ummmm...no thanks"
Depending on the proximity of local parks, or the amount of back yard you have - you could always assemble a "farm boy" home gym consisting of;
2 30ft lengths of 3" rope
1 Large tractor tire
1 10-20lb sledge hammer
1 Keg
Find plans and assemble a chinup bar.
All that, and who needs a gym?
I used to do this type of workouts until we moved and couldn't take the tractor tire with us. Keg throws, sledgehammer swings, tire flips, rope climbing. Maybe when we move back into a house by the end of this year, I'll go get another tractor tire and get back to doing this type of stuff.
It can be hard to get a lot of hypertrophy off this type of workouts is the downside.
And, hubby loves that I'll do free weights with him when he's in town.
When he's out of town I stick to the girly weight machines.
Quick lesson. No such thing as toning. Tone refers to muscle tone or tonus. I blame Cosmo or some other women's fitness magazine for starting this misnomer of a term.
My exercise physiology professor would threaten to throw things at people when they used the word 'toning'.
Depending on the proximity of local parks, or the amount of back yard you have - you could always assemble a "farm boy" home gym consisting of;
2 30ft lengths of 3" rope
1 Large tractor tire
1 10-20lb sledge hammer
1 Keg
Find plans and assemble a chinup bar.
All that, and who needs a gym?
I used to do this type of workouts until we moved and couldn't take the tractor tire with us. Keg throws, sledgehammer swings, tire flips, rope climbing. Maybe when we move back into a house by the end of this year, I'll go get another tractor tire and get back to doing this type of stuff.
It can be hard to get a lot of hypertrophy off this type of workouts is the downside.
If I get any muscular hypertrophy going, the W will kick me out of bed. She likes trim, but not cut.
I think she's on drugs...
Aaaaaaaaaaanyway... my workout yesterday consisted of 30 minutes of mat work in Judo. Almost nothing else compares to the fatigue that 30 minutes of grappling will put on you.
Yep hardest thing I ever did was boxing and wrestling. I think I'll stick to weights but after my wife runs her marathon. I'm excited to cheer her on when she crosses that finish line. Admittedly I didn't do that in the past. It's important to have your husband be there when you accomplish something outstanding! I'm totally fine with her training because she IS spending UA with me now!
If I get any muscular hypertrophy going, the W will kick me out of bed. She likes trim, but not cut.
I think she's on drugs...
That made me laugh. I remember when I first started working out, my wife told me she didn't want me getting "all big and gross". It's funny that the 'bigger' I get the more her definition of what "big and gross" is. Of course I'm no where near bodybuilder big. Yet.
I also laughed the day I got shredded for my last competition. She hadn't been a huge "yay for abs" kinda girl. Then I had these great abs and she said, "You know, I think I do like abs." We all laughed and high fived.
[Okay. I think I went off into left field for a simple question lol
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer this, KT. I have done both: machines and free weights and seem to have better results with free weights. Like you, I do use weights with my cardio and it increases the intensity. I have been doing HIIT solely for the reason that it helps my blood sugar. It does increase my appetite, but both aerobics and HIIT bring down the glucose circulating in my blood stream, which helps my insulinism.
I will head over and check out crossfit. Right now I am doing alot of the older Firms and a Cathe Friedrich HIIT.
Sorry for the threadjack!!
Average night, not a good morning. I have all the same old feelings of me not being important to my wife after last night. Affection shut off like a faucet, she said she was just tired. I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?" She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired." We had stayed up late, reasonable request so I shifted to thoughtful mode, picked up some "sleepy tea" for her so she could go to bed early and be well rested. Body language was different the entire night. No affection, little sarcastic(both of us), she sat on the recliner and I sat on the couch. Last night before bed I asked respectfully if we could "make sure and not get complacent", and she agreed. She did make one sarcastic comment last night about the previous night which stuck which was, "well I gave you SF last night and met your needs" as if to say "I gave you loving now I get to take the day off from MB and you should consider yourself lucky." This morning rather than do the stew face I brought it up and mentioned that there was a shift in body language from her and that I had some of the same old feelings as before of not being important to her. Then it began. "Sorry, but its not my fault." "I was tired cause of the kids." "You're reading into it." "If you hadn't of had me stay up late then I wouldn't be so tired." On and on and on. Same thing she always has done in the past which was, "you shouldn't feel this way", and "its not my fault." I admit a "you're crazy woman face slipped out" during an AO by her. She through in a "I can't stand you" comment for good measure. I said, "I don't think we should talk right now" and its been silence ever since. I know it can't be peachy all the time, but needless to say this was very disappointing and a huge step backwards. I can't control her so I'm gonna be a big boy and attempt to do what I need to do to control me. My question is, what do I do from here? How long do I let things blow over and calm down? I'll go read some more in a bit here, gonna work out of the house today so maybe we'll have some time to chat. Stay tuned.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?" We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it. She obviously doesn't want to continue the pattern of staying up late so we need to POJA about it I suppose. I think we also stay up late because it is our only time together during the week. If the kids go down at 8pm and we go to bed at 9pm, then its hard to get enough UA together you know?
Hill, your posts above are absolutely loaded with disrespectful judgments. At the core, it is obvious that you believe that she is wrong to feel the way she feels.
My question is, what do I do from here? How long do I let things blow over and calm down? I'll go read some more in a bit here, gonna work out of the house today so maybe we'll have some time to chat. Stay tuned.
What do you do? You:
* meet emotional needs
* avoid love busters
What are you planning to do nice for her to meet her emotional needs, today?
If she wants to talk about it, let her talk, and listen, and use the information she provides you to modify your behavior. If she does not want to talk about it, don't talk about it.
I have suggested numerous times that you thank your wife for putting up with you, Hill. Here you are going out committing DJs again. That's a lot for your wife to have to deal with. You should probably express your admiration and appreciation to her for putting up with that.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?"
What did you find disrespectful or demanding about the way she asked? It sounded quite respectful to me, like a request, not a demand.
We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Okay, your perspective here sounds pretty valid to me, but are you saying that her perspective should not have even been expressed? That she was wrong to suggest change?
Remember to use the policy of joint agreement as your guide. If one of you becomes unenthusiastic about something you are doing, even if it's something you've negotiated before, you immediately STOP DOING IT! and begin negotiating something else. Be creative and brainstorm and look for something that will make you both happy.
Average night, not a good morning. I have all the same old feelings of me not being important to my wife after last night. Affection shut off like a faucet, she said she was just tired. I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?" She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired."
That doesn't seem like a very effective way to squeeze in UA time. If she is tired at that time, that would be the WORST time to schedule UA time. I would plan nights OUT, away from the children, at a time when she is not exhausted. Is she exhausted at 5 or 6pm during the week? Is she exhausted at 1:00 on Saturday? Find good times to schedule UA time away from the kids when you are not tired.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?"
HT, that is not a SD. She was telling you she doesn't want to do that. Do you have the book Lovebusters?
I pointed out this was an SD
There are worksheets for this. It's very difficult for most couples to point out SD, DJ, and AOs to each other on the fly and survive and not get into a fight.
YOU NEED TO AVOID A FIGHT AT ALL COSTS. AT ALL COSTS.
Use the worksheets. Is your wife open to receiving them from you?
Are ya'll scheduling 8 hours of sleep per night?
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?" We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it. She obviously doesn't want to continue the pattern of staying up late so we need to POJA about it I suppose. I think we also stay up late because it is our only time together during the week. If the kids go down at 8pm and we go to bed at 9pm, then its hard to get enough UA together you know?
Your wife's Taker is talking. Marriage Builders is about you learning to please your wife's Taker, so please start listening. Even if you feel she is talking with SDs, DJs, and/or AOs, if you don't find a way to boil down the information that you are getting from her and act on it, your marriage is going to die. This is serious.
I hate to tell someone they are wrong when they said their spouse made a demand, was disrespectful, or had an angry outburst. Usually there is some reason why they felt it was disrespectful or demanding. But I feel like MelodyLane is quite right here: it is not demanding to ask your spouse NOT to do something. It is only demanding to insist that your spouse DO something. There is a really serious difference. The difference is that you can always brainstorm alternatives that will make you both happy. Put in some more time to do that.
It is not demanding to expect your spouse to follow the POJA. Your wife isn't enthusiastic about staying up so late, so don't do it. She's asking you to do nothing and negotiate with her to find something that will make you both happy. You are behind this program, so follow it and get busy doing just that.
I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?"
Sounds like a good way to word a thoughtful request, but your follow-through turned it into a demand, Hilltopper!!!!!!
Remember the key part of a thoughtful request is to be willing to accept "no" for an answer. You are showing some reluctance to take "no" for an answer.
She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired." We had stayed up late, reasonable request
Screech to a halt right there, Hill! Please don't ever let your wife hear you say "reasonable request" again. Marriage Builders doesn't teach anything at all about reasonable requests. It's not in there.
It doesn't matter what your wife's reasons are or if they are reasonable or make sense. What matters is how she feels. It doesn't matter why she's too tired, what matters is she feels tired!
By commenting on whether her request is "reasonable" or not, you are setting yourself up as the judge of whether your wife is being rational or not. Did you catch that word, "judge"? You are committing a disrespectful judgment. You blew it, guy, I'm sorry to tell you. She's withdrawn now because of your disrespectful judgment. The faster you admit this mistake and own up to it, the faster you guys can get back on track.
She did make one sarcastic comment last night about the previous night which stuck which was, "well I gave you SF last night and met your needs" as if to say "I gave you loving now I get to take the day off from MB and you should consider yourself lucky."
Frankly, Hill, I think you SHOULD consider yourself lucky. You have a real problem being disrespectful, and your wife is STILL striving hard to meet your emotional needs. You are a pretty lucky guy with a real winner of a wife, and you should TELL her that.
She through in a "I can't stand you" comment for good measure.
Of course she can't stand you when you are disrespectful.
How long do I let things blow over and calm down?
Very disrespectful wording. It's just a little thing to you, she's just being irrational, and you just need it to "blow over."
Go face your disrespectful screwups. It'll help.
I know it can't be peachy all the time,
Yes it can, actually, but you have more work to do to get there. It can't be peachy the way you are going about it.
but needless to say this was very disappointing and a huge step backwards.
I suggest you go get a babysitter and invite your wife out to do something you both enjoy at a time when she is not tired.
I can't control her so I'm gonna be a big boy
Ouch. You just strongly implied you are big and she is little.
I agree that you're impatient. Things are going well and because of 1 night now you're up in arms about how to handle this or that.
It would have been better if instead of 'wheeling and dealing' by "If I put the kids down..." How about just be nice realizing she's tired. "Honey, go relax in the bath while I get the kids in bed. I know you've had a long day and you're tired."
If you're expecting SF every day you're going to be disappointed. That is unreasonable. So you had SF the night before, do the bath thing/kids down and let her get some rested sleep, then try and set up for some quality SF tomorrow or hte next day.
but needless to say this was very disappointing and a huge step backwards.
Hill, I know you are disappointed. But you are going to need to let your logical and rational side take control and keep you following a proven plan to reestablish intimacy in your relationship. If you let your emotions take charge you will bog down in your own personal disappointment and you guys will stay this way and get worse.
Hill, have you ever heard that women tend to be more emotional and men tend to be more logical? There's some truth to that, to the point that many women are rightly annoyed at their husbands over it. But that's based on looking at "typical" men and "typical" women. Nobody is truly "typical."
Some men tend to be more emotional than other men. More things bother them. You know, in a good relationship, a woman can still usually list a lot of things that bother her, while a typical man isn't bothered by anything! All the things that bother him disappear when the relationship is good, because his mind simply blocks it out. While a woman's mind usually doesn't work that way.
But some of us men are more easily bothered than others.
It is hard for a typical logical man to learn to "put up with" his emotional wife.
But it is far, far more difficult for a typical emotional woman to learn to PUT UP WITH an atypical emotional man.
Because you tend to be this way, your wife has a much harder job to do than most wives. She is going to have to work a lot harder to learn how to meet your emotional needs effectively, negotiate with you, and avoid love busting you. You have a lower threshold for being bothered!
There's nothing wrong with that. I'm that way myself.
But it does mean that your wife needs a big giant MEDAL, every day, just for being your wife. Awarded by you. She needs to hear from you that you know you are a difficult man to live with and that you appreciate what she is going through to live with you.
The good news is, emotional men can have really, really good and passionate marriages. But you won't get there if you aren't rational about planning to get there, and if you don't stick to the plan.
If you have ever trouble appreciating your wife, just look back to your most recent disrespectful judgments (which were moments ago), and realize what you are putting her through.
I'll go back and answer each of these points and posts but before I do I wanted to provide some perspective on both my wife and myself that is very relevant on how we both handle situations. Normally it wouldn't be a big issue, but I feel in this particular case that because we are so far on the other end of the spectrum, the insight will help give you some info that might make it easier to teach me.
I grew up with parents that made sure there were consequences, good and bad, for every action. If I lied, I got busted. If I did good in school I got rewarded, etc. I always knew where I stood with Mom and Dad and they were always on the same side of the fence. They were tough on me no doubt and by no means did they raise me perfectly, but never the less I'm a product of that parenting philosophy.
My wife grew up in a family of excuses. Its not a DJ, it is just how they do things. I've mentioned before that my wife, her brother, and her Mother make excuses and blame people for anything they want at any time. I won't get into why they do it, you can draw your own conclusions.
Although I was disappointed last night, I told you I had shifted into "thoughtful" mode so that my tired wife could go to bed early. I put the kids down, brushed their teeth, etc. I do just about every night. I held baby and tried to get her down until she got to the point of "I just want mommy", so my wife grabbed her just to get the job done faster. I put on a kettle and made her the sleepy tea. I suppose it was a DJ on my part to state that I wanted to make sure we didn't get complacent in our MB efforts to which she agreed. I could tell she didn't want to spend a bunch of time on that so I let it go and she went to bed.
This morning I was in the shower and said, "Hey I wanted to bring something up about last night." I could see in her face a look of, "Oh boy here we go Hubby is stewing again." I mentioned that I knew she was tired, but that the attempt to meet EN's yesterday was kind of absent. From this point forward and to this actual moment in time my wife didn't make any statements that weren't blaming me or circumstances for why she wasn't able to meet any EN's. After every blame I made a face which made it escalate obviously. I was wrong to make the face and it was not something I was able to control at that moment but will work extremely hard to avoid this at all costs. It got so bad at one point that my wife quite literally blamed her blaming on me.
As I was driving to the office it occurred to me just how much of a LB blaming is. She didn't blame me at all for anything in those last three blissful days we spent together and it was great. I pulled over and sent her one text that said "blaming + faces = fights." It was kind of a revelation. I react really poorly to blames and told you that I don't let my kids get away with it. I need help with this. It is a huge LB and I let her know this, but more than that how do I deal with it when it happens. I can't ignore it. I definitely could not make a face. What do I say? When I say something about it, it typically makes her do several blames in a row. Any advice here?
Hill, your posts above are absolutely loaded with disrespectful judgments. At the core, it is obvious that you believe that she is wrong to feel the way she feels.
My question is, what do I do from here? How long do I let things blow over and calm down? I'll go read some more in a bit here, gonna work out of the house today so maybe we'll have some time to chat. Stay tuned.
What do you do? You:
* meet emotional needs
* avoid love busters
What are you planning to do nice for her to meet her emotional needs, today?
If she wants to talk about it, let her talk, and listen, and use the information she provides you to modify your behavior. If she does not want to talk about it, don't talk about it.
I have suggested numerous times that you thank your wife for putting up with you, Hill. Here you are going out committing DJs again. That's a lot for your wife to have to deal with. You should probably express your admiration and appreciation to her for putting up with that.
She can be tired, in fact I bought her sleepy tea because she was tired. I respect her right to be tired and to feel any way she wants. I press discussing things because if I don't initiate they just won't be discussed at all. I pressed her on MB and despite push back and conflict she is here. Pushing is wrong and its also right depending on circumstances and I have a hard time figuring out when and where I guess. Avoiding things just to keep it pleasant causes resentment and I know this. One more thing, when I mention things here to you all letting you know how I feel, it doesn't mean I said that exact thing to my wife. I'll try and do a better job of pointing out my feelings versus my actual comments to my wife.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?"
What did you find disrespectful or demanding about the way she asked? It sounded quite respectful to me, like a request, not a demand.
We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Okay, your perspective here sounds pretty valid to me, but are you saying that her perspective should not have even been expressed? That she was wrong to suggest change?
Remember to use the policy of joint agreement as your guide. If one of you becomes unenthusiastic about something you are doing, even if it's something you've negotiated before, you immediately STOP DOING IT! and begin negotiating something else. Be creative and brainstorm and look for something that will make you both happy.
It was a SD. She said if we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then she'll meet my needs, affection, SF, etc. She said that I have to behave a certain way and if I did she would then meet some of my EN's, that in my book is a textbook SD. The tone also was in line with the SD. After I told her that sounded like an SD, she then said, "how can I respectfully request that we not stay up so late." That part was great. Best part of the entire conversation this morning, in fact.
Hill, you said that she started with the "It's not my fault" stuff...did she actually say, "It's not my fault!" or is that something you inferred?
As far as the things about being tired because 1. stayed up too late the night before and 2. the kids have worn her out, those aren't blaming and they're not even excuses...they are EXPLANATIONS.
Is she 'allowed' to explain why she feels a certain way without you getting angry?
Average night, not a good morning. I have all the same old feelings of me not being important to my wife after last night. Affection shut off like a faucet, she said she was just tired. I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?" She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired."
That doesn't seem like a very effective way to squeeze in UA time. If she is tired at that time, that would be the WORST time to schedule UA time. I would plan nights OUT, away from the children, at a time when she is not exhausted. Is she exhausted at 5 or 6pm during the week? Is she exhausted at 1:00 on Saturday? Find good times to schedule UA time away from the kids when you are not tired.
It probably isn't effective and this is a huge challenge. My wife tries to please everyone so the social calendar is quite full. She has done a better job of politely saying no to some events of late and I love that, but during the week it is just sit down and hold on tight you know? It felt good for both of us to stay up late which is why we did it, in fact I mentioned it was a lot like we were dating. I can see its taken its toll however on her being very, very tired.
Hill .. I am glad your last few days have been Blissful ... however you need to keep up the good work and reward your wife for her attempt to MB. Giving her some space is also necessary especially when you have 3 small children like you have. She will get "touched out" far easier than you will since she is with them for a majority of the day. This WILL get easier as they grow .. so you will have to grin and bear it for a while.
HAve you looked into the Maca Root for your wifes low energy? Maca is not only a libido booster .. but its a hormone balancer and a great energy increaser! My wife was very skeptical about it .. but I kid you not .. it works like a charm! Takes about 5 days to fully take effect with the full dosage.
One average day after 3 good days? I would say thats pretty good Hilltopper .. I hope you let your wife now just how awesome she was for having those good days and the affection you did recieve?
MNG
I pointed out this was an SD
There are worksheets for this. It's very difficult for most couples to point out SD, DJ, and AOs to each other on the fly and survive and not get into a fight.
YOU NEED TO AVOID A FIGHT AT ALL COSTS. AT ALL COSTS.
Use the worksheets. Is your wife open to receiving them from you?
Yes we have them and I'll ask her if she wants to implement starting tonight.
Hilltopper,
You are blaming her. Cut it out.
I'll start reading through some of this, but I can tell from your tone you are still busy defending your perspective and why you think your situation is unique here, etc. There have been dozens of PRACTICAL suggestions offered for you here this morning as well as a number of QUESTIONS.
What will help your marriage would be if you would:
* answer the questions
* implement the practical suggestions
It's great you are having insights into problems, but your insight sounds like a disrespectful judgment to me. You educated her on how each of you have a role in contributing to fights. That's what your arithmetic text comes across as.
Quit telling us why your wife is hard to deal with and start following the suggestions.
It was a SD. She said if we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then she'll meet my needs, affection, SF, etc. She said that I have to behave a certain way and if I did she would then meet some of my EN's,
That sounds like an awesome and fair trade to me. It sounds like a proposal, not a demand.
She is letting you know under what circumstances she would be enthusiastic about the things you want. Following the FGSN, you will now need to come up with a solution that incorporates her perspective.
She is being open and honest about how she feels and telling you the map to getting what you want. You are one lucky man to have such a communicative wife. Don't screw this up now. Pay attention to what she is telling you.
that in my book is a textbook SD.
You wrote the book? :P
I can't even figure out what she was demanding of you. What was she demanding that you
DO?
Hill, we are here to help you, but you need to listen.
You are loaded with demands and disrespectful judgments.
Your wife is not demanding to say "I can't meet your EN if I don't get more sleep." She's being open and honest. If you ignore what she is telling you, you will not be able to have a good marriage.
I'll go back and answer each of these points
Please do not try to rebut the points that were made to you. That will not do anyone any good, least of all you.
Are you looking for a happy marriage? Would you like to know why your wife is upset? Would you like to know what you could do to change things?
I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?"
Sounds like a good way to word a thoughtful request, but your follow-through turned it into a demand, Hilltopper!!!!!!
Remember the key part of a thoughtful request is to be willing to accept "no" for an answer. You are showing some reluctance to take "no" for an answer.
She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired." We had stayed up late, reasonable request
Screech to a halt right there, Hill! Please don't ever let your wife hear you say "reasonable request" again. Marriage Builders doesn't teach anything at all about reasonable requests. It's not in there.
It doesn't matter what your wife's reasons are or if they are reasonable or make sense. What matters is how she feels. It doesn't matter why she's too tired, what matters is she feels tired!
By commenting on whether her request is "reasonable" or not, you are setting yourself up as the judge of whether your wife is being rational or not. Did you catch that word, "judge"? You are committing a disrespectful judgment. You blew it, guy, I'm sorry to tell you. She's withdrawn now because of your disrespectful judgment. The faster you admit this mistake and own up to it, the faster you guys can get back on track.
She did make one sarcastic comment last night about the previous night which stuck which was, "well I gave you SF last night and met your needs" as if to say "I gave you loving now I get to take the day off from MB and you should consider yourself lucky."
Frankly, Hill, I think you SHOULD consider yourself lucky. You have a real problem being disrespectful, and your wife is STILL striving hard to meet your emotional needs. You are a pretty lucky guy with a real winner of a wife, and you should TELL her that.
She through in a "I can't stand you" comment for good measure.
Of course she can't stand you when you are disrespectful.
How long do I let things blow over and calm down?
Very disrespectful wording. It's just a little thing to you, she's just being irrational, and you just need it to "blow over."
Go face your disrespectful screwups. It'll help.
I didn't mention the bath ever again or imply that I was even disappointed about it actually. What demand did I make? My text back after the tired comment was exactly this, "Agreed. Totally understand. Are those rolls still left over for turkey sandwiches?" Then she mentioned, "Baby is a terror" in a reply. I sent back the following, "Its ok I got that little bugger tonight! Kids down at 730, wife drink sleepy tea I got, hubby do his thing while wife go upstairs and crash to recharge."
I didn't mention anything about a "reasonable request" to my wife at all. I was suggesting to you all that I felt her not wanting to take a bath because she was tired was a very reasonable request in my head which is why I went to the sleepy tea plan.
The comment she made about giving me SF the night before was her comment to me and it was intended, I believe but I could be wrong, to let me know that she gave me SF and therefore she can treat me any way she wants.
I'm asking you how long I should let us both chill out before speaking again. What am I missing here? You said give her space, I trust that is the right thing to do, so how long do I wait to communicate again to avoid the fight scenario?
Pushing is wrong and its also right depending on circumstances and I have a hard time figuring out when and where I guess.
Pushing NEVER make Love Bank deposits. It ALWAYS withdraws them.
Even in a GREAT marriage, complaints (which are a good thing) make withdrawals.
Your marriage cannot handle complaints right now. You are both too deep in the red.
Start filling that woman's Love Bank and QUIT THE COMPLAINTS for now. STOP PUSHING. Fill the Love Bank. That is your goal right now. Fill the Love Bank.
She can't concentrate on filling yours right now because she is too busy having to protect herself from you.
One more thing, when I mention things here to you all letting you know how I feel, it doesn't mean I said that exact thing to my wife. I'll try and do a better job of pointing out my feelings versus my actual comments to my wife.
You may not say the DJs. But it still affects the way you treat your wife. The things you think turn into action. Stop dwelling on those negative thoughts. They are not productive. FILL HER LOVE BANK.
I agree that you're impatient. Things are going well and because of 1 night now you're up in arms about how to handle this or that.
It would have been better if instead of 'wheeling and dealing' by "If I put the kids down..." How about just be nice realizing she's tired. "Honey, go relax in the bath while I get the kids in bed. I know you've had a long day and you're tired."
If you're expecting SF every day you're going to be disappointed. That is unreasonable. So you had SF the night before, do the bath thing/kids down and let her get some rested sleep, then try and set up for some quality SF tomorrow or hte next day.
Geez I need to figure out how to communicate with you all more effectively. Read previous post about how things went down last night. I did put the kids down and I almost always put the kids down. I know it might be common for the wife do handle the kids and the husband to sit on the couch with a beer in one hand and the tv remote in the other, not this one, ok? I'm extremely hands on, very involved in my kids life, etc.
I'm not expecting SF every day, you are coming to that conclusion on your own.
Hill, you said that she started with the "It's not my fault" stuff...did she actually say, "It's not my fault!" or is that something you inferred?
As far as the things about being tired because 1. stayed up too late the night before and 2. the kids have worn her out, those aren't blaming and they're not even excuses...they are EXPLANATIONS.
Is she 'allowed' to explain why she feels a certain way without you getting angry?
Yes that is exactly what she said. The phrases most typically are pointed at me and start with the following, "Well if you had(hadn't) blah, blah, blah, then..............."
Geez I need to figure out how to communicate with you all more effectively.
Hilltopper, I have been right where you are. I can promise you that you don't need to invest any effort in communicating more effectively with us.
A very, very kind soul here took me aside, REPEATEDLY, and patiently explained to me, over and over again, that I was the source of many of the difficulties in my marriage.
It took awhile for the message to take. In the meantime, devastation occurred.
I think you need to invest more effort in listening and in trying to see how we are right, rather than more effort in trying to communicate to us to prove yourself right.
I've been right. I am extremely dangerous when I am right. I am also very unhappy when I am right.
I have discovered that I would rather be wrong and happy.
Please go back and read the completely practical suggestions you have been given, especially the one from MelodyLane which you did not even acknowledge in your reply to her.
The solution is here, and it does not involve you explaining your conflict with your wife to us in minute detail. Stop giving us more information. We have enough. We know what you need to do differently. Are you ready?
I don't think either one of you should be saying if you do A, B, C I'll meet your needs only then. The assumption is that both of you will meet the ENs and no LBsw. And you will get your UA time in. These are not supposed to be hoops we jump through. We do things because we want our spouse to feel loved and not what we can get out of it.
Now if you two could stop being angry at each other and follow the worksheets.
HT, read BOTH OF THESE;
Good Things Come to Those Who Wait: The Power and Pleasure of Delayed GratificationOne of the things everyone wants most in life is to feel, period. Not simply to feel good, but to just to feel, and feel deeply. This is why while women have a reputation for creating drama, I know guys who do it too�by say cheating on a girlfriend they really love�to subconsciously create a situation of great angst. Because paradoxically, even though angst is a �negative� emotion, it�s pleasurable on some level to simply feel something�anything�so intensely.
But there are healthier ways of feeling more deeply than creating drama for yourself, such as purposefully cultivating hunger (and I mean hunger here in a much broader sense than the appetite for food).
We often think of hunger as �bad� and satiation as �good.� But each state is part of the spectrum of human experience and each has value; every man needs to intensely feel both of them to understand himself and the world.
If you want to experience the fullness of life, you have to be content to feel both satiation and hunger; if you�re always stuffed from having gorged on life�s pleasures, you�ll miss out on a whole other dimension of the human experience.
You keep pushing for instant gratification, and it is driving both you and your wife nuts.
Why? Why do that to yourself, when the reward for the work and patience required to do this right will be much greater?
Building Your Resilinecy: Part VI-Quit CatastrophizingCatastrophizing essentially involves imagining and dwelling on the worst possible outcome of something. It�s basically overreacting and letting your thoughts run away to dire and highly unlikely scenarios. It�s the kind of thing that happens when you�re lying awake at three in the morning worried sick about the future and what�s going to happen to you.
Catastrophic thinking proceeds like a chain. One �what if� leads to another until you�re picturing yourself homeless on the street.
Catastrophizing can take two forms. It can spring from an actual event, like taking law school finals. Or it can simply be the product of gazing into the future and imagining one�s life taking a terrible turn.
YOU are doing this. You have ONE NIGHT where your wife is wore out, and you throw your hands up and whine; "It's going right back to where we were before!"
It's ONE DAY, hill. MB isn't a magic pill. It's not some infomercial secret to getting rich quick.
It's a systematic change of thinking and acting to help to rebuild and improve your marriage.
Everyone LOVES to toss around the cliche' that "a good marriage takes work," but some people just don't do the dang work.
Quit whining, suck it up, AND DO THE WORK.
HHH well said ... err .. posted. lol
I can appreciate you addressing my impatience and I respect that, will heed your advice and work on it starting now. What I don't respect is me coming here and explaining a massive Lovebuster that my wife does and you hardly acknowledge it. CWMI seems to think her compulsive blaming is really just a her form of explaining things. The rest of you didn't bring it up at all as if it doesn't even matter. I've said this before MB works when two people are on board, accept responsibility for not meeting EN's and LB's, then change their behavior accordingly. When my wife told me my faces bothered her I didn't tell her that was her fault for me having made the face. It was my fault, I acknowledged it, it bothered her so I stopped doing it. So when I told her that her blaming was a huge LB, then she blames me for having caused her to lay blame in the first place, not only is it illogical but it made me feel this is an impossible position for me to be in. I've said it before, how do I compete with that?
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me? Affection got shut off like a faucet immediately following three fantastic nights including one with SF. With the experiences I've had in this marriage how can I not be concerned? There were no LB's all day, I was patient, I asked her about the bath, got her sleepy tea instead, it was all there. I can appreciate being tired and not wanting to take a bath or have SF, etc. This was very different. This was, I'm(wife) too tired, I'm(wife) gonna sit over here by myself today. I'm(wife) also gonna be very sarcastic which I normally don't do. So in my shoes it was, well where did the affection go and who is this person sitting across the room from me? This is the same person that that I felt neglected and unimportant to which brought me to MB in the first place. Does that make sense? So no, I'm not a mind-reader I didn't attribute it to her just being tired and it concerned me very much, that is all there is to it.
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage. I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?
Actually no not at all, but you were all smacking me upside the head so I figured it was ok for me to do it back a little bit. I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it, I thought it was pretty surprising to be honest. The only person that addressed it directly was actually my wife about 15 mins ago!
Put it on the LB sheet that when she says "It's not my fault because..." it's an annoying habit. On the ENQ, you can write the solution under meeting your need for conversation in 'how it can be better satisfied': discuss things without assigning fault.
Look, I know how hard it is to have conversations when there's different communication styles. My H and I had a breakthrough the other day--he thinks I don't listen and that's why I misunderstand what he says. I think he's not clear. We had a very specific conversation and later he mentioned something about who we'd talked about, and I said, "Oh, the guy who xyz?" and he got flustered and said no, that was somebody else, I never listen, etc...but here's the thing I noticed. When we'd had the first conversation, it began by him telling me about this client he met late in the day, some trivial facts, and then he says, "So then this guy goes to show me..etc" and I thought we were talking about the same guy. He smoothed right into it. Glad I noticed it, so I could tell him that his transitions weren't clear enough for my literal head. We're talking about a guy, he refers to 'this guy', my head puts it on the last person referred. What he meant was "This OTHER guy".
These are the little nit-picky nuances of marital conversation that only need to be discovered and dealt with, not fussed over and fought about. If I can say, "Hey, are we talking about the same thing, or have you changed subjects?" you can say, "Hey, you said 'fault' again, I don't care about fault, I care about you. Just tell me what you want to say without all the fault stuff, okay?"
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?
Actually no not at all, but you were all smacking me upside the head so I figured it was ok for me to do it back a little bit.
Mature.
Do you want help or not?
I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it,
Not true. Did you actually read the responses?
I can appreciate you addressing my impatience and I respect that, will heed your advice and work on it starting now. What I don't respect is me coming here and explaining a massive Lovebuster that my wife does and you hardly acknowledge it. CWMI seems to think her compulsive blaming is really just a her form of explaining things. The rest of you didn't bring it up at all as if it doesn't even matter. I've said this before MB works when two people are on board, accept responsibility for not meeting EN's and LB's, then change their behavior accordingly. When my wife told me my faces bothered her I didn't tell her that was her fault for me having made the face. It was my fault, I acknowledged it, it bothered her so I stopped doing it. So when I told her that her blaming was a huge LB, then she blames me for having caused her to lay blame in the first place, not only is it illogical but it made me feel this is an impossible position for me to be in. I've said it before, how do I compete with that?
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me? Affection got shut off like a faucet immediately following three fantastic nights including one with SF. With the experiences I've had in this marriage how can I not be concerned? There were no LB's all day, I was patient, I asked her about the bath, got her sleepy tea instead, it was all there. I can appreciate being tired and not wanting to take a bath or have SF, etc. This was very different. This was, I'm(wife) too tired, I'm(wife) gonna sit over here by myself today. I'm(wife) also gonna be very sarcastic which I normally don't do. So in my shoes it was, well where did the affection go and who is this person sitting across the room from me? This is the same person that that I felt neglected and unimportant to which brought me to MB in the first place. Does that make sense? So no, I'm not a mind-reader I didn't attribute it to her just being tired and it concerned me very much, that is all there is to it.
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage. I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.
Get over yourself, dude.
Really. I'm not coming from some high-faluting place when I post to you. Not like I have some life of perfection. I had my wife so disinterested in me, that she took up sleeping with another man.
Don't pull this crap like you are some kind of victim, and use it to justify your screw ups, buddy. Ain't gonna work.
Man up, take your lumps, and quit whining about how hard it is.
WE KNOW how hard it is, some of us are still living it.
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage.
You've never actually done that, have you? That was a serious suggestion I passed on straight from Dr. Harley, Hill. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with three decades of experience working with marriages and restoring romantic love, so I think he knows a little bit about what he's talking about.
I wasn't offering it as a commentary on you. I was suggesting you actually open your mouth and say it.
But if you don't want my advice, Hill, that's okay.
I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it,
On the contrary, Hill, people went and posted to your wife about it.
Meanwhile, we have brought up a lot more than one huge LB which you have committed, and so far I've seen you do precisely nothing about it other than argue with us.
This plan doesn't work if you don't follow it.
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me?
No, I don't blame you for feeling impatient at all. Now, do you want to follow a plan that can get you what you are impatient to have? Or would you rather continue to tear it all down with your bare hands?
I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.
All your work will be for naught if you don't do something about the love busters you are committing. You will never be able to fill your account in her love bank fast enough. If you will listen to us instead of debating with us, we can help you.
Put it on the LB sheet that when she says "It's not my fault because..." it's an annoying habit. On the ENQ, you can write the solution under meeting your need for conversation in 'how it can be better satisfied': discuss things without assigning fault.
Look, I know how hard it is to have conversations when there's different communication styles. My H and I had a breakthrough the other day--he thinks I don't listen and that's why I misunderstand what he says. I think he's not clear. We had a very specific conversation and later he mentioned something about who we'd talked about, and I said, "Oh, the guy who xyz?" and he got flustered and said no, that was somebody else, I never listen, etc...but here's the thing I noticed. When we'd had the first conversation, it began by him telling me about this client he met late in the day, some trivial facts, and then he says, "So then this guy goes to show me..etc" and I thought we were talking about the same guy. He smoothed right into it. Glad I noticed it, so I could tell him that his transitions weren't clear enough for my literal head. We're talking about a guy, he refers to 'this guy', my head puts it on the last person referred. What he meant was "This OTHER guy".
These are the little nit-picky nuances of marital conversation that only need to be discovered and dealt with, not fussed over and fought about. If I can say, "Hey, are we talking about the same thing, or have you changed subjects?" you can say, "Hey, you said 'fault' again, I don't care about fault, I care about you. Just tell me what you want to say without all the fault stuff, okay?"
Thanks for this anecdote, it is similar to a lot of what we go through. I'll work on my delivery when I want to bring something up with her and I'll tell her to try and hold back the instinctive response of blame. I'm getting hammered for DJ's so maybe all issues should be reserved for the workbook.
Hill, can I ask you something?
Where do you want to be a year from now?
You and your wife remind me A LOT of Markos and me. When we first got here, we posted post after post that consisted of "He did THAT to me," or "She's doing this!" Whiny, whiny posts full of frustration and hurt.
We were both committed to doing the program, but we were also both in full Taker mode, and way too busy pointing fingers and wanting to nitpick every single conflict.
Eventually, I quit. I thought our marriage was horrible then, but we REALLY went through hell after that.
Now, a year later, we are finally picking up the pieces and starting over by doing things RIGHT. The really, really sad thing is that we could've had a wonderful marriage a year ago.
This program is not about pointing fingers and talking about how horrible your spouse's LB are. This is not a place to vent and get sympathy. This is a place to work on YOU. This is a program that teaches YOU how to show care for your wife, and how to protect her from yourself. This program doesn't help you to rub your spouse's nose in the wrongs she's committed, nor to demand that she right those wrongs -- rather, it helps you show her how to care for you and to protect you.
When you fill out the LB forms, do so with the mindset that you're helping your spouse protect you. Don't wallow in your hurts, or resent your spouse for hurting you. It can be far, far worse. Trust me.
You're in this together. Help each other. You are not each others' enemy. Follow the program, and learn from each how to care for each other. Do so with gentleness, kindness and self control.
Pointing fingers and having pity parties is not going to cut it.
Where do you want to be a year from now? In love? Or starting over?
A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.
Yes I have thanked my wife for putting up with me.
I do want help very much so. I read and reread the responses and no I did not see responses and did not see responses aside from CWMI's response about blaming as a LB.
I think I push for instant gratification because I think or feel that 1+2=3 and if we start doing these things now gratification can be felt. We did that both for three days and we were gratified. Yesterday I kept up that effort so I thought it would turn out the same way. When it didn't I looked for a reason why and reacted incorrectly I suppose.
But remember that it didn't take a day to get your marriage into the state that it is. It's going to take more than a day to get the marriage where you want it.
This all takes practice and changing habits that you've ingrained in yourself (and herself also). Most of us on here were in the same boat that you and your wife were and we're giving you the tools that have made us successful in our marriages.
I know this. Internalizing this and remembering it in a moment of feelings is a hard thing to overcome at times.
A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.
Then change your outlook.
Start changing YOU.
Let your wife work on herself.
Stop getting hung up on each LB she does to you -- send her a respectful LB form at the end of each week with the mindset that you are helping her take care of you (NOT with the mindset of pointing out her faults and demanding she change). Dwelling on the painful mistakes your wife has made will not get you there.
Remember that she
wants to care for you.
Encourage your wife to do the same so that you can learn how to care for her.
Learn from each other.Fill each others' Love Banks.
Enjoy the journey. (Steve Harley told me this one at the beginning of the year last year -- I didn't listen)
Please do not make the same mistakes Markos and I did. Stop fighting over what each other is supposed to do and start helping each other. You are not each others' enemy. Stop acting like it.
A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.
Then change your outlook.
Start changing YOU.
Let your wife work on herself.
Stop getting hung up on each LB she does to you -- send her a respectful LB form at the end of each week with the mindset that you are helping her take care of you (NOT with the mindset of pointing out her faults and demanding she change). Dwelling on the painful mistakes your wife has made will not get you there.
Remember that she
wants to care for you.
Encourage your wife to do the same so that you can learn how to care for her.
Learn from each other.Fill each others' Love Banks.
Enjoy the journey. (Steve Harley told me this one at the beginning of the year last year -- I didn't listen)
Please do not make the same mistakes Markos and I did. Stop fighting over what each other is supposed to do and start helping each other. You are not each others' enemy. Stop acting like it.
Yep I'm aware of all of this as is she, it is the discipline part that sneaks in there at times. I consciously try to make decisions and take an extra minute to think before I do things. I find myself biting my tongue quite a bit more than I used to and I'm sure she does the same. We recovered yesterday very quickly and had a nice night.
So I know I need to work on me and that my wife needs to work on her. This concept is hard. I know I'm not a patient man which causes me to look at my wife's side of the fence more than I should. As it pertains to affection which is my number one EN, if I don't initiate or ask it just doesn't happen. We had three wonderful nights earlier this week where I felt like my wife, "got it". She was affectionate to me and showed her love to me through physical affection. That affection stopped Thursday, continued into Friday, and continued this morning. I left work early yesterday, stopped by the mall, got her a cute sweat suit, a gift card to her favorite specialty tea store, and an amazing piece of cheesecake. I walked through the door so excited to shower my wife with gifts because I love her. I made her her favorite buffalo mozzarella salad, filet mignon, etc. She was grateful, don't get me wrong, but my efforts to meet her EN's don't really ever lead me to believe that it has an impact like you say that it should or will. I don't believe the intention of me working on me means that I should just "take the scraps" as someone put it earlier in this thread. I have no intentions of being a doormat and giving into a marriage that I get very little back out of. Is that fair to say? My specific question is, how do I approach letting my wife know that she doesn't meet my EN for affection? You've said be more patient and just wait. But you also say that I need to make sure I am brutally honest and say how I'm feeling. I spoke up this morning about this subject, my wife didn't like it, and we are back at the starting point. My wife is the most important thing to me and she said she feels that, the opposite is not at all true. It doesn't feel good to my wife "gets to me when she gets to me." I just don't know when I'm supposed to shut up and when I'm supposed to speak up. If I shut up, like I have in the past, nothing changes. If I speak up, she doesn't like it and gets irritated at me. There doesn't appear to be any middle ground, but I could be wrong, I'm all ears.
I'm not hear to fight you all, just tell me how you see it, ask whatever questions you want and I'll answer them truthfully. I just want forward progress.
But you have to remove the LBs before you will really see progress. You can meet every EN on the list and if you're LBing, it's not gonna help much.
Is receiving gifts on your wife's EN important list? If not, you could buy her a billion dollar diamond ring and it's not gonna matter a lot. My wife isn't concerned with gifts or monetary things. She does like the occassional thoughtful gift but it doesn't do much for her if I buy her things. However, doing the dishes, folding clothes, playing with the kids makes her beam. Her two top ENs are family commitment and domestic services so this is where I concentrate my efforts the most.
You can be brutally honest without lecturing or coming off as impatient. Your wife has identified two of her LBs are your impatience and lecturing. Stop those. �Honey, I could really use more affection. I�ve really missed your touch the last couple of days.� Then give her a hug and go on. However if you say, �you know, it�s been two days since you�ve shown me affection. We�re supposed to be working this program, and you�re not meeting my needs.� Well�that aint helping the situation.
Going back to me, my wife has a high need for DS. During soccer season, I can have some late nights getting home and am just busy. So I might have a day or two in a row that I don�t help a lot with cooking and cleaning. If my wife were to start outlining that I haven�t done this and that for X amount of days, I wouldn�t like that. However, if she were to say, �I really need help with the house; it�s dirty. I don�t have time to get to the dishes, can you help?� Sure, absolutely. I do make every effort to make sure I�m meeting her needs on a daily basis. When you drop the LBs and get the ENs met on a consistent basis over time, then when you miss a day or two here and there it�s not quite as big of a deal.
I'm an afterthought to my wife. It feels horrible. Her words, her body language, all of it speaks, " look I'll get around to finding you important when I get to it, back off.". How can I want to keep giving to that person? I'll work on how I approach being brutally honest I for sure showed impatience.
I'm an afterthought to my wife. It feels horrible. Her words, her body language, all of it speaks, " look I'll get around to finding you important when I get to it, back off.".
This would be called a DJ. Stop inferring things. However you can state how you feel. "Honey, I'm feeling lonely and unimportant. I'd appreciate it if we could have some alone time together after the kids are down."
How can I want to keep giving to that person? I'll work on how I approach being brutally honest I for sure showed impatience.
Don't show impatience. Use drive-by honesty without being rude and impatience. State what you need and not necessarily what she is doing wrong. Have you ever had a hobby that you did for fun without any expect of return. For right now view this as a hobby with ferver.
I'm an afterthought to my wife. It feels horrible. Her words, her body language, all of it speaks, " look I'll get around to finding you important when I get to it, back off.". How can I want to keep giving to that person? I'll work on how I approach being brutally honest I for sure showed impatience.
Hill... Hill, Hill, Hill...
Can you man up a bit, and give your week a one week stretch where she can try to get things going without you having a meltdown?
Hill, you're not trying very hard at this program at all. You get impatient and expect this and that. I have a feeling you don't make it very pleasant to be around when you get disappointed or things aren't going your way. This is the second time in two days when things haven't gone your way that you've gotten really extreme on teh deep end.
STOP BEING SO EMOTIONAL! If I'm getting this over a screen, imagine what someoen living with you is getting.
Now DECIDE to have a good day. Stop letting others control how you feel. Start the darn day over. One thing my dad used to do is if the day started out with things going emotionally haywire, he'd just say, "Okay. We're getting worked up and emotional. We're starting over as if we just woke up."
YOU are making this harder than it is.
Call Steve harley today.
I'm an afterthought to my wife.
No, you are not. And to allow yourself to think so will impede your progress.
Get your thoughts under control. They may cross your mind in the beginning, but DON'T DWELL ON THEM.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Hill, stop stewing. Start today over. Seriously. Start it over. Give her a hug, tell her you don't want to fight anymore today and just start over.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Your entitled to conclude whatever you about me, in fact it is apparent from your posts that you have made that conclusion clear. What I will tell you is that I'm working incredibly hard at this and "I feel" that my wife is simply not. The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's. It is a conscious choice that is being made, I know what I'm experiencing here each minute, hour, and day. It is real, not some fantasy I've created to argue with all of you and point all the blame at my wife. The snuggling, kisses, and hugs from the last three days were all initiated by me, not her. My wife suggesting that she is meeting my need for affection by kissing me back is just ridiculous.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Your entitled to conclude whatever you about me, in fact it is apparent from your posts that you have made that conclusion clear. What I will tell you is that I'm working incredibly hard at this and "I feel" that my wife is simply not. The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's. It is a conscious choice that is being made, I know what I'm experiencing here each minute, hour, and day. It is real, not some fantasy I've created to argue with all of you and point all the blame at my wife. The snuggling, kisses, and hugs from the last three days were all initiated by me, not her. My wife suggesting that she is meeting my need for affection by kissing me back is just ridiculous.
REALLY?
Are you here to get help, or to look for justifications for your poor behavior towards your wife.
YOU are shooting YOURSELF in the foot, YOU are not listening, YOU are making a conscious choice to keep impeding the progress of your marriage.
I suggest you shape up and cut the bull before you stop getting responses.
Well, Hill, I wish you the best then.
Hill, did you ever enumerate the ways in which your need for affection could be met on the ENQ?
Hill, did you ever enumerate the ways in which your need for affection could be met on the ENQ?
Yes apparently not specific enough for my wife so I'm doing a new one specific with actual acts of affection and times of day thanks.
Kilt/Hold,
I'm taking a break, it is best for my wife and I. We tend to do better when I spend time in the workbook and not here. My wife told me she's never seen me this way until I began my journey here and that needs to change. I've received some great advice here from all of you actually so don't see me as a lost cause, I just think the format of a forum for some reason isn't conducive to making me chill out and do better. I hope to work on that, but for now I get feel insulted, bullied, and want to strike back. The best three days my wife had I didn't spend much time on here at all. I intend to try just that again and see if we can minimize the outside suggestions and perspectives. Thanks again for everything, maybe I'll check back next week!
Hill
Hill, I don't know if you ever read the story ML shared about how they were working the program practicing by going to the store to POJA groceries. She got a head of lettuce she didn't like and I don't remember for sure but I think he went outside the store because he was angry. They related the story to Dr. H, who told them ML's H needed anger management.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids. I have a 15 year old who makes excuses when folks are hostile to her, because her dad and I raised her steeped in the hostility and strife you and your wife describe. Somehow we thought it was acceptable to live like that, to raise kids in that, instead of being willing to go to any length to find a way to relate to each other peacefully. Sadly it wasn't until she was like 13 that the hostility and strife finally stopped here. I'm trying to play catch up so late, and so far it looks like I'm losing. Her dad and I made the choices, but she pays the consequences. I think it would be awesome if you could get the hostility and strife out of your home while your kids are still little and impressionable and can easily soak up new patterns to replace these faulty ones. I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids.
Is hilltopper having angry outbursts? If so, he might need anger management classes. My H was referred to anger management classes for angry outbursts. If it's just hostility and strife, of course they don't need outside intervention because Marriage Builders takes care of that. That is what the program resolves. I have not seen anything that told me that anger management was warranted, did I miss something?
If AM classes are needed, I would check with Markos, since he went to one while under the tutelage of Dr Harley.
The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's.
When you try to tell us what her reasons are and tell us what she is thinking, that's a disrespectful judgment.
Everytime things go wrong, your are reaching for disrespectful judgments.
If I asked you to go through your last ten posts and identify the DJs for us, I'll bet you could find ten, but I'll bet I could find a hundred!!!
The biggest problem evident in your marriage is these DJs. Do you believe it's okay to tolerate some DJs, or do you believe they should not be tolerated at all?
I just think the format of a forum for some reason isn't conducive to making me chill out and do better.
I agree sometimes it is not.
I hope to work on that, but for now I get feel insulted, bullied, and want to strike back.
Good grief, Hilltopper, when the doctor gives you a shot, do you hit him because it hurts?
Some of what you will hear here will be extremely unpleasant, but it will be the most important things in the world to hear if you want a good marriage. You had best learn how to listen to things you don't want to hear and throw out the responses that come so quickly to your mind and take more time mulling over what is being said to you.
I intend to try just that again and see if we can minimize the outside suggestions and perspectives.
Hill, you have a SERIOUS Disrespectful Judgment problem, and I doubt you are going to get much traction until you address it. It sounds like you've got a lot of energy to meet her emotional needs, but it sounds like you need some help developing some insight into what DJs you are committing and empathy into how that is making your wife feel.
I predict you'll be starting over, over and over again, until you get these DJs
gone.
I can promise you, my friend, from my own personal experience, that you are massively UNDERESTIMATING the importance of this problem, and OVERESTIMATING the importance of your wife's apparent motivational problem. She is here. I promise you that if she is having motivational problems, we can help her with that, but I can also promise you that we cannot help her if you are not SERIOUSLY, DESPERATELY, INTENSELY motivated to fix this DJ problem. Can we trust that we will see you put all of the effort into that that you are expecting her to put into meeting your need for affection?
Hill, I understand that you are making your wife a detailed list of the affectionate acts you would like to see. I think this can be a great idea.
But I just wanted to offer a suggestion: if you want your wife to be patient with you when you commit a DJ, I'd suggest that you be very patient with her when she misses something on your list.
By the way, I think the reason you do better when you are not here is that when you are gone you are focusing on filling her Love Bank instead of rehearsing your most recent conflicts over and over again by posting about them and rereading them here.
I'm taking a break, it is best for my wife and I. We tend to do better when I spend time in the workbook and not here.
Maybe because when you're here, you are venting and DJing your wife instead of working the program?
Take responsibility for your DJs, Hill. It's not the board's fault that you can't talk good about your wife. It's not your wife's fault, either.
Markos, you're wasting your time for right now. He thinks coming here is making things worse. He posts the drama going on and when we call him out on his baggage, he gets upset at us.
Can't talk now at dinner with my wife, no kids!
.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Your entitled to conclude whatever you about me, in fact it is apparent from your posts that you have made that conclusion clear. What I will tell you is that I'm working incredibly hard at this and "I feel" that my wife is simply not. The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's. It is a conscious choice that is being made, I know what I'm experiencing here each minute, hour, and day. It is real, not some fantasy I've created to argue with all of you and point all the blame at my wife. The snuggling, kisses, and hugs from the last three days were all initiated by me, not her. My wife suggesting that she is meeting my need for affection by kissing me back is just ridiculous.
REALLY?
Are you here to get help, or to look for justifications for your poor behavior towards your wife.
YOU are shooting YOURSELF in the foot, YOU are not listening, YOU are making a conscious choice to keep impeding the progress of your marriage.
I suggest you shape up and cut the bull before you stop getting responses.
Wife and I had an amazing stressful day. We watched our friends 4 year old for the weekend which we committed to two months ago which was probably not a good decision considering the current circumstances. We are gonna be a bit more selective in the future. My wife and I have discussed how I react emotionally to the advice I get here. It is not just here, it is how I deal with everything everywhere and is a problem. I can't even answer why I do so, but I am working on it. I feel like I'm at a crossroads in my life, almost like an out of body experience of sorts right now. It's like, "dude, who the hell are you?"
Hill, I don't know if you ever read the story ML shared about how they were working the program practicing by going to the store to POJA groceries. She got a head of lettuce she didn't like and I don't remember for sure but I think he went outside the store because he was angry. They related the story to Dr. H, who told them ML's H needed anger management.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids. I have a 15 year old who makes excuses when folks are hostile to her, because her dad and I raised her steeped in the hostility and strife you and your wife describe. Somehow we thought it was acceptable to live like that, to raise kids in that, instead of being willing to go to any length to find a way to relate to each other peacefully. Sadly it wasn't until she was like 13 that the hostility and strife finally stopped here. I'm trying to play catch up so late, and so far it looks like I'm losing. Her dad and I made the choices, but she pays the consequences. I think it would be awesome if you could get the hostility and strife out of your home while your kids are still little and impressionable and can easily soak up new patterns to replace these faulty ones. I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.
This is very on point but for different reasons. I don't think the situation Tgrace and I go through is completely understood to be honest. Not in a blaming whiny way, just how things really are. I don't get angry verbally when we talk. But I'm sneaky angry I guess. My face and emotions say it all. Its like a man of many faces or something. I can say something that is perfectly acceptable, but know that the intention in my face and emotions is a stinger. I am doing some self reflection and it should go away and I'm working on it.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids.
Is hilltopper having angry outbursts? If so, he might need anger management classes. My H was referred to anger management classes for angry outbursts. If it's just hostility and strife, of course they don't need outside intervention because Marriage Builders takes care of that. That is what the program resolves. I have not seen anything that told me that anger management was warranted, did I miss something?
If AM classes are needed, I would check with Markos, since he went to one while under the tutelage of Dr Harley.
I'm not opposed to any of this. What do you think about the fact that I only get angry or upset or whiny about our relationship? I don't care about heads of lettuce or small [censored], the only thing I care about is that I feel my wife loves me. I go about it wrong, there is no doubt, but this is all I want.
The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's.
When you try to tell us what her reasons are and tell us what she is thinking, that's a disrespectful judgment.
Everytime things go wrong, your are reaching for disrespectful judgments.
If I asked you to go through your last ten posts and identify the DJs for us, I'll bet you could find ten, but I'll bet I could find a hundred!!!
The biggest problem evident in your marriage is these DJs. Do you believe it's okay to tolerate some DJs, or do you believe they should not be tolerated at all?
I have a problem of not just accepting what people do. I always want to know why and what for. Its like, "you kissed me, but why?" type of stuff. I always want to know why. I do the same thing with my partner at work. If he has an issue why I did something I want to know why he has an issue.
My DJ's are OOC. An addiction of sorts I suppose.
I just think the format of a forum for some reason isn't conducive to making me chill out and do better.
I agree sometimes it is not.
I hope to work on that, but for now I get feel insulted, bullied, and want to strike back.
Good grief, Hilltopper, when the doctor gives you a shot, do you hit him because it hurts?
Some of what you will hear here will be extremely unpleasant, but it will be the most important things in the world to hear if you want a good marriage. You had best learn how to listen to things you don't want to hear and throw out the responses that come so quickly to your mind and take more time mulling over what is being said to you.
I intend to try just that again and see if we can minimize the outside suggestions and perspectives.
Hill, you have a SERIOUS Disrespectful Judgment problem, and I doubt you are going to get much traction until you address it. It sounds like you've got a lot of energy to meet her emotional needs, but it sounds like you need some help developing some insight into what DJs you are committing and empathy into how that is making your wife feel.
I predict you'll be starting over, over and over again, until you get these DJs
gone.
I can promise you, my friend, from my own personal experience, that you are massively UNDERESTIMATING the importance of this problem, and OVERESTIMATING the importance of your wife's apparent motivational problem. She is here. I promise you that if she is having motivational problems, we can help her with that, but I can also promise you that we cannot help her if you are not SERIOUSLY, DESPERATELY, INTENSELY motivated to fix this DJ problem. Can we trust that we will see you put all of the effort into that that you are expecting her to put into meeting your need for affection?
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Markos, you're wasting your time for right now. He thinks coming here is making things worse. He posts the drama going on and when we call him out on his baggage, he gets upset at us.
You are justified in feeling this. I never blamed you for anything on these posts of mine. I said for me personally it wasn't good at times to continue.
[
I'm not opposed to any of this. What do you think about the fact that I only get angry or upset or whiny about our relationship? I don't care about heads of lettuce or small xxxx, the only thing I care about is that I feel my wife loves me. I go about it wrong, there is no doubt, but this is all I want.
Well, thats the point. If you can't control your anger, then you need anger management. Your anger is entirely your fault, regardless of the reason. And if you can't control it, Dr Harley would tell you look into anger management classes.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I go about it wrong, there is no doubt, but
My suggestion is that you take the word "but" out of your thinking on this.
Admit that you go about it all wrong, and discover that you don't have to go about it this way any more and that there is no longer any excuse for going about it all wrong.
Do you really want a better relationship? Is that really all you want?
Do you really want a better relationship enough to make eliminating these disrespectful judgments a high priority?
Because there is literally no other path to get what you want. There are other paths you can try, but they will not work. You can try really hard to motivate your wife to meet your emotional needs in the face of your love busters, but you will simply burn her out. There is no way she can keep at that forever.
While you have her attention and while she is working so hard to follow the advice given here and to work this program with you, you have a limited window of opportunity. If you do not show her that you can change, that you have changed, and that the change is permanent, do not expect her to continue keeping up this pace.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I just reread Dr Harley's description of DJs. Its not that I never read it, I just want to be very clear on what I'm doing and when I'm doing it.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I just reread Dr Harley's description of DJs. Its not that I never read it, I just want to be very clear on what I'm doing and when I'm doing it.
Think about it this way, Hill; any time I try to "explain myself" to my wife, I am levying a disrespectful judgement.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I just reread Dr Harley's description of DJs. Its not that I never read it, I just want to be very clear on what I'm doing and when I'm doing it.
Think about it this way, Hill; any time I try to "explain myself" to my wife, I am levying a disrespectful judgement.
Its funny how things progress over time and the things that my wife and I once thought were the most crucial for recovery in our marriage were really not nearly as important as we thought! Truth is a disrespectfully judge everyone all damn day. I do it to my business partner and all of our staff, friends and I must be quite frustrating to be around!
I'm coming around.....
Its funny how things progress over time and the things that my wife and I once thought were the most crucial for recovery in our marriage were really not nearly as important as we thought! Truth is a disrespectfully judge everyone all damn day. I do it to my business partner and all of our staff, friends and I must be quite frustrating to be around!
I'm coming around.....
Right?
It may not be as important to avoid Disrespectful Judgements with people other than your spouse, but it's much easier to do so with your spouse if you just don't do it at all.
I have a problem of not just accepting what people do. I always want to know why and what for. Its like, "you kissed me, but why?" type of stuff. I always want to know why. I do the same thing with my partner at work. If he has an issue why I did something I want to know why he has an issue.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so.
Do you see the irony here?
but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process
You can feel emotion, and do the right thing anyway. You can be nervous and still deliver a speech or get a shot at the doctor. Emotions are not forcing your mouth to move and air to come through your vocal cords. You probably respond more favorably in front of strangers even when you are experiencing negative emotions than you do in front of your wife, right? It means you are capable of doing it, and can do it front of her, too.
You may consider getting a book about controlling emotions called, "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life." It is based on the same underlying principles that Dr. H's stuff is based on, but it isn't about marriage, it is about not being paralyzed by emotion.
I have a problem of not just accepting what people do. I always want to know why and what for. Its like, "you kissed me, but why?" type of stuff. I always want to know why. I do the same thing with my partner at work. If he has an issue why I did something I want to know why he has an issue.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so.
Do you see the irony here?
but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process
You can feel emotion, and do the right thing anyway. You can be nervous and still deliver a speech or get a shot at the doctor. Emotions are not forcing your mouth to move and air to come through your vocal cords. You probably respond more favorably in front of strangers even when you are experiencing negative emotions than you do in front of your wife, right? It means you are capable of doing it, and can do it front of her, too.
You may consider getting a book about controlling emotions called, "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life." It is based on the same underlying principles that Dr. H's stuff is based on, but it isn't about marriage, it is about not being paralyzed by emotion.
Good way to put it! My poor wife dealing with me and my emotions, what a drag for her. Its not just emotions however it is obsessing about the intentions of everybody's actions rather than just taking someone's action or inaction for what it is. If my wife is grumpy because the kids and baby were pills all day, then she's just grumpy, no need to read into and and wonder if she's mad at me. Baby was screaming this morning, we think she is teething, so I'm gonna make every effort to create a killer environment when I get home for her.
Hill,
I will admit that I was a constant DJer and have been working on it for some time now, which is why I felt compelled to respond.
In my experience, I DJ more when I am feeling insecure, undervalued, and like I am not being cared for. I was famous for saying things like, "You don't love me, do you?" when what I really mean was, "I'd like some affection, conversation, and UA time, please." When I learned how to ask for it in a respectful way, I got more of it, and it was of higher quality.
A DJ is a short term fix with long term negative consequences. In the short term, it might force our spouse to say something that we want to hear (e.g., "You're ridiculous, of course I love you" or in your case, "Of course I am not mad at you, I love you") but it also depletes their love bank. In addition, it doesn't help us much, because we don't value things they do and say as a result of a DJ (or SD) as much as we do if they just said it or did it on their own.
Since your wife is on board with MB and working on things, I think you are going to feel more and more cared for and these negative feelings and worries will start to go away. But, this doesn't place the blame on your wife. It is harder for her to show you care and to meet your needs when you are DJing. It is your responsibility to create conditions that make her want to show you care. You mentioned doing that above, so I think you get that, which is super.
Stop looking for short term gains (that have a long term negative effect) and consider this a long game. Less DJs now will result in less depletion of her love bank and more care from her overall. This care is going to help you feel more secure and will result in less negative thoughts and feelings on your part in the future. When you are feeling like saying a DJ, ask yourself, is this potential short term gain worth eroding her love and our marriage? Then ask yourself, what is it I really want right now?
Fix this now to protect how you will both feel in the future.
Not a good night. We are scheduling with Steve Harley today, already sent requested dates in. The truth is from the moment someone suggested that I "get snooping" on my wife my security in this relationship went from 100% to 0% within the blink of an eye. Its not the forums fault or any particular persons, but I have interpreted that information and used it to create images in my head, and read into things that probably aren't even there. It just all added up, no more sex, not much of an interest in me, not replying to my emails about marriage, not replying to texts, stats on 50% of all marriages having A's, comments to me about how I might really have something to worry about in the A department. I honestly feel that my priority in her life comes between her plants and shopping on the internet. I don't even think affection is my top EN to be honest, I don't know what is. For now I seek things that make me feel better about the possibility of an A, and my wife and I agreed that if I can't get past these images and thoughts in my head we're not gonna progress anywhere. I was honest with my wife last night and she let down the thunder and was so hurtful this time. No need to get into all the details again, but lets just say she finished off the middle of the night conversation with a "You're ruining our lives, our marriage, and our kids." She called me psycho 20 times, disgusting another 10 times, among other things. She asked me if I was on drugs(no 100% no way on that.) She asked me questions, then we I began to answer them, she cut me off and yelled over me. I know what my wife is feeling to a degree and I don't blame her for being so frustrated with me. Maybe Steve H can walk me through some of this so that I can gain some confidence back in this marriage and react accordingly. I have not been able to control my feelings for anything longer than a day or two and so we always end up here. I think the soonest appt was tomorrow morning so we are aiming for this. My wife keeps talking about an "intervention" from my Dad? She says she can't go through this and that she wants to tell someone that we both know to maybe talk some sense into me? Not really sure, she said she is gonna do what she wants to do on this subject whether or not I agree. I'm focusing on remaining calm.
Good luck with the phone consultation. However, if you can't control yourself, phone counciling isn't going to help you control your insecurities.
I don't agree with the telling a parent. Nothing was a bigger LB to me than when my wife used to tell me "I'm calling your mother". Geez. What am I, 3?
Call the Harleys and skip the going to mommy and daddy.
We are scheduling with Steve Harley today,
This is fantastic, Hill. I think it would be a great move to tell your wife that you will continue to see Steve as long as she feels like she needs you to.
It just all added up, no more sex, not much of an interest in me, not replying to my emails about marriage, not replying to texts, stats on 50% of all marriages having A's, comments to me about how I might really have something to worry about in the A department.
No, that doesn't add up to the total that you think it does.
It does not add up this way.
Prisca and I see a woman who is sincerely trying to meet your emotional needs and yet still keeps getting blown over every time you feel emotional. You felt emotional last night, so you woke her up. You needed reassurance, and you were willing to get it at her expense. Ouch.
I honestly feel that my priority in her life comes between her plants and shopping on the internet.
Instead of browbeating your wife for not having strong feelings for you, change the way that you are treating her, and then she will have strong feelings for you and you'll never doubt that you are first in her life.
For now I seek things that make me feel better about the possibility of an A, and my wife and I agreed that if I can't get past these images and thoughts in my head we're not gonna progress anywhere.
Start with trying to change what you do instead of changing what you think. Instead of trying to not worry about an affair, try to quit reacting to your emotions without thinking and asking for advice and forming a plan. I guarantee you did not have a plan when you woke grace up last night. You just felt something and reacted to it and set off a bomb in your relationship. Slow down. Calm down.
The following is not logical reasoning:
"Right now I am feeling insecure about our relationship and worried my wife is having an affair. Therefore I must wake her up now and we must talk about how important this is."
That's pure emotion right there. It's absolutely irrational, and it's also very selfish.
Mamas of littles need sleep. Badly.
Good luck with the phone consultation. However, if you can't control yourself, phone counciling isn't going to help you control your insecurities.
I disagree. If anyone can help Hill with being insecure and controlling himself, it's Steve Harley.
Feelings follow actions. Instead of trying to control insecurities, I recommend trying to control what you do in response to insecure feelings.
Feelings follow actions. Instead of trying to control insecurities, I recommend trying to control what you do in response to insecure feelings.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this? I am watching baby while my wife went with the boy to a school function, then on my way to the office. I got a total of one hour of sleep last night so I'm having a hard time doing much of anything right now.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this?
I think you talking to Steve on your own would be great. Be honest with him about your issues. Be brutally honest. Reveal to him your selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. I suggest you talk to him about the love busters YOU have done and only then talk to him about your wife.
That said, if your wife can talk with Steve, too, that would be very helpful.
Prisca and I got to meet Steve in person last year at the very last Marriage Builders weekend. He is the most respectful man I have ever known, and after a year of trying to figure out what disrespectful judgments are, I know that that is a real accomplishment! Dr. Harley has said of his son Steve that he is "respectful, almost to a fault," and it shows.
Steve is also a great motivator, and a great explainer of this program.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this?
I think you talking to Steve on your own would be great. Be honest with him about your issues. Be brutally honest. Reveal to him your selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. I suggest you talk to him about the love busters YOU have done and only then talk to him about your wife.
That said, if your wife can talk with Steve, too, that would be very helpful.
Prisca and I got to meet Steve in person last year at the very last Marriage Builders weekend. He is the most respectful man I have ever known, and after a year of trying to figure out what disrespectful judgments are, I know that that is a real accomplishment! Dr. Harley has said of his son Steve that he is "respectful, almost to a fault," and it shows.
Steve is also a great motivator, and a great explainer of this program.
Sounds like a guy that I can learn a lot from, thanks.
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
Probably more than just time, Hill. Remember that you started down this road so, even though she may not have stayed on the moral high road herself, she's still reeling from the hurt of what you've done. She will want to see that you take that seriously.
An apology alone doesn't make things feel better for many people. An apology plus time doesn't do it, either.
Don't hesitate to reiterate to your wife that you feel that what you did last night was wrong. Wrong for waking her up, wrong for demanding that she talk to you when she wasn't enthusiastic, wrong for being judgmental toward her.
If you don't sound like you believe this was wrong and believe that this was the first step that started the fight, she will have trouble believing that you are ever going to get better. And her enthusiasm will wane.
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
Exactly ... just validate her feelings and give her time to gather her self and recompose. Do NOt engage in any unpleasant conversation .. and do not instigate any unpleasant conversation. Keep things REAL simple and give her some time and space to calm down. Your outburst last night/this morning was a HUGE love bank withdrawl and will take a while to recover from. She will be hesitant to talk in fear of your emotional outburst.
I understand both sides to your scenerio. MY wife and I had a similar stand off. WHen I was at my wits end, we had began a slippery slope of emotional outbursts just before my wife dived in MB with me. My wife had told me she didnt love me anymore ... and wanted me to die and go away. She told me this many times over the course of a few weeks. Well .. that fueled my insecurity to the point where i was going to fulfill that request and kill myself.
During a VERY heated and emotional outburst and after about an hour of fighting I had descided it was time ... I got my rifle out of my gun cabinet ... and told my wife I was going to fulfill her request and kill my self. I reached for my bullets in the box on top of my cabinet in a rage of tears ( i couldnt even see properly my eyes were so red and swollen from crying and fighting and yelling ... i couldnt find the bullet and god slapped me and told me .. basicly WTF are you doing? I had promised I would never hurt my family and here Iwas .. about to hurt myself which WOULD hurt my family. I dropped my gun on the floor ... and went outside. My wife called my dad .. an he came the next day and took my guns from me. Told ME He wouldnt give them back until i was emotionally stable. THATS when I descided i needed counselling and my wife agreed and she came with me.
6 months later I got my guns back but that was after the MC and after we had read the HNHN book and some of the other book I had bought that my wife scoffed at many times when i was previously trying to convince her to join me with MB. When she finally did .. it all came to light. IT wasnt overnight tho that we "fixed" our relationship but it sure had a HUGE impact right away.
So .. I know the pain you are in ... I know the feeling of insecurity and uncertanty. I know the turmoil. I know the "craziness" your feeling.
Just breath ... and slow down. Dont think about tomorrow ... just work on today to be the best SELF you can be. Nothing is worth the stress that your causing to yourself by over reading into things. your wife is NOT .. I repeat NOT in an affair .. she is hurt from your emotional outbursts stemmed from your insecurity. Once you start doing things for YOU and being the man that you are and being more respectful to yourself and those around you ... your wife will respond alot better. Right now she needs to see you be a bit more stable on your own before she will be able to feel safe and secure to meet your needs.
MNG
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
I'm a little weird here, Hill.
I don't like to apologize.
Now, don't get me wrong, I do apologize, and do it often. However, so do wife beaters.
The solution? Don't do or say things that you have to apologize for.
Don't engage in Love Busting behavior.
When you do apologize, do it sincerely, and do not try to justify your offense. Then, do not repeat the statement or action which you had to apologize for.
Think before you speak or act; is this important enough to my well being that I will stand behind it and not retract? Or is this simply a reactive gesture? Can I change this without making a statement or action which will be unpleasant to my spouse?
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
Exactly ... just validate her feelings and give her time to gather her self and recompose. Do NOt engage in any unpleasant conversation .. and do not instigate any unpleasant conversation. Keep things REAL simple and give her some time and space to calm down. Your outburst last night/this morning was a HUGE love bank withdrawl and will take a while to recover from. She will be hesitant to talk in fear of your emotional outburst.
I understand both sides to your scenerio. MY wife and I had a similar stand off. WHen I was at my wits end, we had began a slippery slope of emotional outbursts just before my wife dived in MB with me. My wife had told me she didnt love me anymore ... and wanted me to die and go away. She told me this many times over the course of a few weeks. Well .. that fueled my insecurity to the point where i was going to fulfill that request and kill myself.
During a VERY heated and emotional outburst and after about an hour of fighting I had descided it was time ... I got my rifle out of my gun cabinet ... and told my wife I was going to fulfill her request and kill my self. I reached for my bullets in the box on top of my cabinet in a rage of tears ( i couldnt even see properly my eyes were so red and swollen from crying and fighting and yelling ... i couldnt find the bullet and god slapped me and told me .. basicly WTF are you doing? I had promised I would never hurt my family and here Iwas .. about to hurt myself which WOULD hurt my family. I dropped my gun on the floor ... and went outside. My wife called my dad .. an he came the next day and took my guns from me. Told ME He wouldnt give them back until i was emotionally stable. THATS when I descided i needed counselling and my wife agreed and she came with me.
6 months later I got my guns back but that was after the MC and after we had read the HNHN book and some of the other book I had bought that my wife scoffed at many times when i was previously trying to convince her to join me with MB. When she finally did .. it all came to light. IT wasnt overnight tho that we "fixed" our relationship but it sure had a HUGE impact right away.
So .. I know the pain you are in ... I know the feeling of insecurity and uncertanty. I know the turmoil. I know the "craziness" your feeling.
Just breath ... and slow down. Dont think about tomorrow ... just work on today to be the best SELF you can be. Nothing is worth the stress that your causing to yourself by over reading into things. your wife is NOT .. I repeat NOT in an affair .. she is hurt from your emotional outbursts stemmed from your insecurity. Once you start doing things for YOU and being the man that you are and being more respectful to yourself and those around you ... your wife will respond alot better. Right now she needs to see you be a bit more stable on your own before she will be able to feel safe and secure to meet your needs.
MNG
OMG! I'm soooo sorry it came to that point and I'm soooo glad you are here now. Stability would be key for me. I don't like being insecure, it totally sucks and I don't intend on remaining insecure forever.
So I put kids down, baby was screaming, I fell asleep upstairs while wife was waiting for me to talk. She is hurt again she said that if I did that to her I'd be pissed. I suppose she is right. I slept two hours total last night and it caught up to me. I went up to make amends but she would have none of it. She said she got two hours of sleep too and that I'm not a priority to her. Not true, just fell asleep due to extreme exhaustion. So be it.
So I put kids down, baby was screaming, I fell asleep upstairs while wife was waiting for me to talk. She is hurt again she said that if I did that to her I'd be pissed. I suppose she is right. I slept two hours total last night and it caught up to me. I went up to make amends but she would have none of it. She said she got two hours of sleep too and that I'm not a priority to her. Not true, just fell asleep due to extreme exhaustion. So be it.
You two shouldn't be talking when you are both exhausted. It's very hard to contain emotions when you have no energy.
However, if this was the case, the discussion should have been rescheduled through PoJA so you could both get some sleep.
Gosh this sucks. I went upstairs to apologize for falling asleep and she wasn't interested in it. She was pouty and pissed. Bad timing to fall asleep but I didn't mean too. I literally fell asleep at 430 am last night.
You guys are going to have to stop with the DJs. This is turning into a very bad edition of he says/she says.
You both should try to get a good night sleep, and bring this up the next day at an agreed upon time. And you should drop this accusation of infidelity thing. Either prove it by hiring a PI or wiretapping her or checking her computer or drop it entirely. You will have much more success if you meet her needs and she meets yours.
[start mini-rant]
This comment is to the world in general, if your wife is sleep-deprived or not a morning person, do NOT wake her up in the middle of the night looking for something that requires energy or thought (just because you are up at the time).
[end of rant]
I have just read through both Hilltoppers and his wife's threads...and I gotta say Hilltopper, you have to be more patient and you need to direct your Love Bank deposits in the right way!!!
1) You keep trying to make deposits in to her love bank. I keep seeing "i bought her a card" "I bought her this" "I brought her that"...is "Gifts" one of her love languages? I think it might be yours, but is it hers? Then you get annoyed that one gift doesn't fill up her love bank immediately or she doesn't know you gave her something. On her threads I keep reading that she would like "romantic gestures" which is more like "plan a date" or "arrange for babysitting".
Take home message: FIND OUT WHAT AFFECTION MEANS TO HER. ASK HER WHAT ACTIONS MAKE HER LOVED. YOU ARE DOING THE WRONG ONES.
2) When you make a deposit, if her love bank is in the red, then one gesture/nice thing/EN is not going to propel anyone into that "in love" feeling. Imagine a Leaky Bucket. Her bucket is empty. You put one scoop of water in there. Then you wonder why it isn't full. Then you get mad at her for not acting like it isn't full, which then causes that scoop of water to drain away quickly. Then you are back to where you started from. You need consistent scoops of water (meeting ENs) without removing any (LBs) before you will fill it up.
Take home message: STOP LOVE BUSTING.
3) Your wife seems open to the whole MB thing. That is a very good thing. Is she perfect? no. But stop worrying about her, and worry about you doing MB as best as you can.
Take home message: OWN YOUR OWN PROBLEMS. BE PATIENT!!!
4) I see you (and other men) saying that you don't like having to initiate SF. I see women that don't like having to initiate Domestic Support or Family Commitment. Guess what? For the person who it is most important, they have often have to initiate the need, whether it be SF or something else. And when she does meet your top need, don't whine about how it wasn't every night or the way you like it or worse. That won't make her want to do it again. Just like if she wanted you to mop the floor and all she did was whine how you didn't do it right...would you want to do it again?
Take home message: MAKE SURE YOU MAKE YOUR TOP NEED (SF) EASY AND PLEASANT FOR HER TO MEET
5) Your wife is often tired because of the baby. One time you were watching the baby and you were tired. But somehow that didn't equate to that is the way she feels every night. BABIES ARE TIRING!
Today is a new day. Start fresh. Wipe the slate clean -- don't dwell on the mistakes of yesterday! -- and show your wife that you will care for her.
The Second Enemy of Good Conversation is dwelling on mistakes, past or present.
One of our important emotional needs is admiration. So whenever you remind your wife of achievements of her past or present, you deposit love units because she needs to be admired.
But when you remind her of her failures, you do the opposite. You undermine her confidence and self-esteem, and withdraw love units.
Criticism is painful in marriage because we need admiration so much. We want our spouses to be the most encouraging person we know, one who constantly reminds us of our strengths. We certainly don't want to be discouraged by being reminded of our weaknesses, particularly if it comes from our spouse.
In an intimate relationship we give the keys to our inner self to someone else so that person can be in a position to meet our emotional needs. Intimacy magnifies the pleasure we receive when our needs are met. But it also makes us vulnerable. The pain of criticism is magnified in an intimate relationship. Unprotected, we expose the china closet of our feelings. If the person is critical of us, they are like the proverbial "bull in a china closet." One romp through our inner self and we are not so quick to invite the bull back again.
Criticism now and then is bad enough, but spouses often get into the habit of dwelling on mistakes. These mistakes are mentioned repeatedly in an effort to make sure that the mistake is understood and corrected. But that's not how mistakes are understood or corrected. All this does is magnify the pain until conversation is too unpleasant to continue. Then hope of respectful negotiation is lost.
In your letter, you say that you and your spouse say the same things again and again. You may be referring to this enemy, dwelling on past mistakes. You may find yourselves repeating these criticisms because this enemy dominates your conversation. If that's the case, see it for the enemy it is. As long as you tolerate dwelling on mistakes, you cannot expect to meet each other's needs for conversation. You may withdraw so many love units that it ruins your love for each other.
Read the entire article
here.
Today is a new day. Start fresh. Wipe the slate clean -- don't dwell on the mistakes of yesterday! -- and show your wife that you will care for her.
The Second Enemy of Good Conversation is dwelling on mistakes, past or present.
One of our important emotional needs is admiration. So whenever you remind your wife of achievements of her past or present, you deposit love units because she needs to be admired.
But when you remind her of her failures, you do the opposite. You undermine her confidence and self-esteem, and withdraw love units.
Criticism is painful in marriage because we need admiration so much. We want our spouses to be the most encouraging person we know, one who constantly reminds us of our strengths. We certainly don't want to be discouraged by being reminded of our weaknesses, particularly if it comes from our spouse.
In an intimate relationship we give the keys to our inner self to someone else so that person can be in a position to meet our emotional needs. Intimacy magnifies the pleasure we receive when our needs are met. But it also makes us vulnerable. The pain of criticism is magnified in an intimate relationship. Unprotected, we expose the china closet of our feelings. If the person is critical of us, they are like the proverbial "bull in a china closet." One romp through our inner self and we are not so quick to invite the bull back again.
Criticism now and then is bad enough, but spouses often get into the habit of dwelling on mistakes. These mistakes are mentioned repeatedly in an effort to make sure that the mistake is understood and corrected. But that's not how mistakes are understood or corrected. All this does is magnify the pain until conversation is too unpleasant to continue. Then hope of respectful negotiation is lost.
In your letter, you say that you and your spouse say the same things again and again. You may be referring to this enemy, dwelling on past mistakes. You may find yourselves repeating these criticisms because this enemy dominates your conversation. If that's the case, see it for the enemy it is. As long as you tolerate dwelling on mistakes, you cannot expect to meet each other's needs for conversation. You may withdraw so many love units that it ruins your love for each other.
Read the entire article
here.Fantastic read on this. Yes wife and I are treating this as a new day and have both agreed to identify and avoid all DJ's for the entire day. No expectations on anything else for now, just avoid the insults and see where it takes us. We both agreed that when you change your language and how we treat each other that it can sound a bit corny and odd, but that it will get easier over time. I could see the confidence of both of us go up a couple of notches as we agreed to focus on just this one task today.
Keep at it, Hilltopper and Grace! Dr. Harley's word for that corniness and oddness is "awkward."
Doing things that are not habits for you are going to feel awkward. Your tendency will be to go back to old habits. But you need to practice new behaviors frequently in order for them to become new habits.
That was a great post, Prisca!!
Hill, concentrating on one thing today is an excellent plan!!
That was a great post, Prisca!!
Hill, concentrating on one thing today is an excellent plan!!
Yep, keep it simple stupid is gonna make a difference in our lives. We're gonna follow this one simple plan for today and worry about tomorrow tomorrow. We also need to revise our EN's, they are not accurate. More on that later.
I'd also like to publicly and openly apologize to my wife for neglecting her EN's all these years. I told her all of this this morning but I feel good about being honest here as well. I was selfish, didn't care about anything that was important to her, and repeatedly DJ'd and SD'd her over and over again. I don't blame her for not being into me and I am working on changing the man I've become. I'm not that man yet, but I know what he looks like and I like what I see. This man is thoughtful, respectful, and thinks of others before himself. He never attempts to gain at other's expense. He smiles, in fact smiles a lot.
He takes time out of his day to stop and smell the roses. He does things that make his wife happy without having to be asked. He takes initiative in planning fun activities with his wife, children, and friends. He researches and spends time on romancing his wife rather than picking up flowers as an afterthought at the grocery store. This guy is a stud, a true casanova and you all should be jealous of my wife for being able to own this dude when he becomes what he is aspiring and working on to be.
He never attempts to gain at other's expense.
Both you and your wife are going to like this man a lot more!
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem.
Both of you lost a lot of sleep this week, so that likely to happen.
Put 8 hours of sleep on your schedule for both of you every night. It won't happen if you don't plan it.
Likewise, schedule your UA time. Plan specific activities that you are both EXCITED about.
And look for babysitters.
Did you guys every look into the YMCA or a gym where you could get babysitting?
Gyms can be great IF you are giving each other your undivided attention while you exercise. (Not so great if you are on opposite sides of the room doing different things!) When you exercise you are releasing all kinds of chemicals that make you feel good, so if you are feeling like this with your spouse, you guys are making Love Bank deposits in your accounts.
Also, at the same time, typically this helps one or both spouses along the way to meeting the need for an Attractive Spouse better.
So, you get RC, Conversation, AS all at once. You can also meet Admiration.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
Dr. Harley has said that one of the most important things you can do in your marriage is get adequate sleep. Make that a priority - schedule it.
It makes good sense. It's hard to function at 100% when you're sleep deprived. You do need more than 10 hours a week. 25 would be a great number to hit. But it's going to be hard to hit that if you're both taking turns crashing early at night.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
1. Sit down and schedule out the time, writing out dates and times. Make it a habit of putting everything else second to your UA time. Lose the attitude that you might do it if you have time: MAKE TIME by making it your biggest priority. IT IS. If something gets put aside, make it something ELSE other than your UA time.
2. hire babysitters
3. Like Markos suggested, schedule your UA time for times that you are not exhausted. Schedule it for your best times, like maybe 5 pm during the week and 1pm during the weekend along with Saturday night
On another note, Hilltopper, be sure to be reviewing regularly exactly what the Basic Concepts say. You will notice things you might not have noticed before. They are important. Pay special attention to the Policy of Joint Agreement:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.htmlNever do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse
If you make an agreement but sense that your wife is reluctant, don't make her go through with it. If she becomes reluctant later, renegotiate.
The Policy of Joint Agreement is your tool for measuring whether or not you are being thoughtful toward your wife. If you are following it, you are being thoughtful; if you are not following it, you are being thoughtless. I noticed above you said you were planning on becoming a thoughtful husband, so I wanted to point this out.
Also, have you gotten a chance to listen to Marriage Builders Radio, yet? How long is your commute? I have 70 minutes every day and usually most of that time is spent listening to Dr. Harley and Joyce, which really helps. You'll learn how to apply the Basic Concepts in more and more specific situations so that when your own situations come up it will start to be second nature how to use the concepts in your marriage.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem.
Both of you lost a lot of sleep this week, so that likely to happen.
Put 8 hours of sleep on your schedule for both of you every night. It won't happen if you don't plan it.
Likewise, schedule your UA time. Plan specific activities that you are both EXCITED about.
And look for babysitters.
I've seen a consistent theme in much of the advice here which is "planning." I'd say up to this point I for one have not been diligent in planning UA time. I've tried a few times specifically about working out together as well as a sheet that shows date spots and acceptable babysitters nearby. I feel a bit brushed off about it so to be honest I got discouraged and stopped asking. Yesterday I sent my wife a text that said, "scrabble and wine tonight?" She said, "sure." It just didn't materialize because she was tired, understandably so. I didn't pout or read into it, I simply grabbed a pillow for her, put her head on it and rubbed her back. It felt good to do so.
Did you guys every look into the YMCA or a gym where you could get babysitting?
Gyms can be great IF you are giving each other your undivided attention while you exercise. (Not so great if you are on opposite sides of the room doing different things!) When you exercise you are releasing all kinds of chemicals that make you feel good, so if you are feeling like this with your spouse, you guys are making Love Bank deposits in your accounts.
Also, at the same time, typically this helps one or both spouses along the way to meeting the need for an Attractive Spouse better.
So, you get RC, Conversation, AS all at once. You can also meet Admiration.
Believe me this was my latest and greatest idea that I got excited about. She kind of expressed that this would be uncomfortable to her and I get that, particularly because of me being the lecturing type. I'd love for her to give me and this form of UA a chance. It accomplishes so many thing as you mentioned.
Okay, if your wife is not interested in the gym, then drop it unless you can think of a way to modify your proposal that would make her thrilled about it. Keep brainstorming. Write down ideas when they occur to you, wherever you are, and share them with your wife.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
1. Sit down and schedule out the time, writing out dates and times. Make it a habit of putting everything else second to your UA time. Lose the attitude that you might do it if you have time: MAKE TIME by making it your biggest priority. IT IS. If something gets put aside, make it something ELSE other than your UA time.
2. hire babysitters
3. Like Markos suggested, schedule your UA time for times that you are not exhausted. Schedule it for your best times, like maybe 5 pm during the week and 1pm during the weekend along with Saturday night
Melody,
This really struck a cord with me. I've always felt that if something is a priority, then you'll make time to make it happen. It could be losing weight, going to the gym, spending time with kids, spending time with spouse, etc. Clearly my wife and I historically have chosen not to make our marriage a priority and changing that behavior means we both have to move outside of our comfort zones and just "go for it." I don't have a good feel yet for asking for things that are my EN's. I get the courage to do so and if I get shot down I tend to take it as a sign not to ask again. What I want to work on is regrouping, changing some terms or details of the request, and then try again.
Go with Dr. Harley's worksheets.
They are designed to help you communicate your needs to each other without getting into a fight.
Your wife's enthusiasm for meeting your needs will climb higher and higher the longer you follow this program.
I've always felt that if something is a priority, then you'll make time to make it happen. It could be losing weight, going to the gym, spending time with kids, spending time with spouse, etc.
Tread very lightly here. Live up to your own standards and priorities, but be very careful not to judge your wife on the subject.
If something is not a priority to your wife, don't judge her for not holding that priority.
You will be a priority to your wife when your account in her love bank is receiving MASSIVE deposits every single day and there are no love busters causing withdrawals.
If you were to discover that you were not a priority to your wife, the absolute worst thing you could do would be to fault her for that. This would cause withdrawals from your account in her love bank and would make it even less likely that she would make you a priority. Instead you need to follow a rational plan to change your standing in your wife's estimation.
Yes, planning, organization, and being rational and logical are emphasized here. Personally, in addition to being a recovering chronic jerk, I am an emotional, disorganized wreck. I'm working on recovering from the disorganization as well.
If your wife had a readout on her forehead that showed the balance in your account in her love bank, and you woke up one morning and discovered your balance was in the red, would you be offended?
I hope not. Instead it would be important to be thrilled that you had such accurate information so you could make deposits and change the situation!
If you feel like you are not a priority to your wife, don't try to force her to change her mind on the subject. Instead, face up to the reality, that you haven't lived up to the man you wanted to be, and become that man so that you will be a priority in her life.
Go with Dr. Harley's worksheets.
They are designed to help you communicate your needs to each other without getting into a fight.
Your wife's enthusiasm for meeting your needs will climb higher and higher the longer you follow this program.
Just filled out and sent her my RC worksheet. It was a great exercise and there were many 3's in there which I know will also be for her.
I notice you haven't answered my question about the radio show, yet.
I've always felt that if something is a priority, then you'll make time to make it happen. It could be losing weight, going to the gym, spending time with kids, spending time with spouse, etc.
Tread very lightly here. Live up to your own standards and priorities, but be very careful not to judge your wife on the subject.
If something is not a priority to your wife, don't judge her for not holding that priority.
You will be a priority to your wife when your account in her love bank is receiving MASSIVE deposits every single day and there are no love busters causing withdrawals.
If you were to discover that you were not a priority to your wife, the absolute worst thing you could do would be to fault her for that. This would cause withdrawals from your account in her love bank and would make it even less likely that she would make you a priority. Instead you need to follow a rational plan to change your standing in your wife's estimation.
Yes, planning, organization, and being rational and logical are emphasized here. Personally, in addition to being a recovering chronic jerk, I am an emotional, disorganized wreck. I'm working on recovering from the disorganization as well.
You're right that was a sneaky judgmental jab on my part. STOP IT Hilltopper!
I notice you haven't answered my question about the radio show, yet.
I keep intending to and simply forgot. I tried on my Iphone, but it wouldn't work. How do you listen to it? I have about an hour in the car each day as well.
You are in luck, there is an iPhone/iPad app free in the iTunes store. Unfortunately I know nearly nothing about the iPhone so I can't help much with it, but I will go hunt down a link for you.
Also, the show comes out as MP3s. You can play them in any MP3 software; I'm certain the iPhone has that built in.
The daily show can be streamed on any computer from 12-1 Central time.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.htmlThey also repeat the show for 24 hours until the next show.
Also there are loads of shows out there for free download. They are all just as good and current even if they are from last year.
http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/http://richwith.com/mb/xoldPreviousPrograms/This site also syndicates the program and allows downloading, I think:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/marriage-builders-radio/
Bingo, found the app, downloading now, will listen to today's show on the commute home. How exciting!
Great! I think you'll like it!
Great! I think you'll like it!
I listened to the radio show, Dr Harley and his wife are amazing people and very down to earth. I like the format of the radio show because not only are the callers experiencing some form of marital strife or conflict in the present, but the Harley's provide immediate feedback. The show yesterday from Nicole was a great learning experience. I learned that men think differently than women and want a true partnership in marriage. Last night my wife went to give the kids a bath so instead of staying downstairs after completing the dishes, I went straight upstairs to be her partner in crime and take care of the beasts. I also helped fold and put away some of the laundry and all in all it was quite enjoyable. My wife and I tend to do a lot of, "if you do this, then I'll do the other" type stuff. I'm not certain, but I can see where this may not be beneficial to our marriage. I told her that I thought it would be great if we tackle our daily responsibilities together sometimes to not only converse, but also because it takes pressure off the other person to complete the task.
This weekend is the race up the coast. We are excited about it, big time. We made a list of things to pack, I'm heading out to get what we need, prepare the car, etc. I want her to be relaxed when we leave, not overwhelmed, so my decisions I make over the next few hours will definitely keep that in mind.
I listened to the radio show, Dr Harley and his wife are amazing people and very down to earth.
They really are! I learn a lot just from listening to the way they talk to each other on the air. Notice how even though Dr. Harley has all the degrees and the decades of experience as a clinical psychologist, he is always completely respectful of Joyce?
Incidentally, Dr. Harley and Joyce say they experience conflict in their marriage at a rate of about one conflict per hour. It's just that they always resolve it in a way both are enthusiastic about without any demands, disrespect, or anger! Isn't that incredible? I figure that means they are doing it live on the show at least once per show.
I was alerted yesterday to the fact that you can now listen free online to the entire radio archive since 2006:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/The little "listen" links that they have on there are new. It used to be download only, for a fee.
Just acted like a jerk. It wasn't really something my wife did that set me off, it is what she doesn't do. My taker wants his needs met, gets frustrated when they are not met and picks a fight rather than asking my wife to meet them. My big realization today is that I'm a little *** edit ***. I do everything she asks of me. I ask for nothing in return and go figure I get no ENs met. It's a huge ego blow to be a little *** edit *** not to mention probably very unattractive to my wife. I wouldn't respect me if I was her. My instincts are telling me to not do anything she asks, yeah that'll teach her a lesson. You keep telling me to be patient and that my wife will begin to meet my needs if I behave a certain way. I don't have faith that this will happen. It's like I obsess over making her happy but I'm not on her radar. My wife tells me she doesn't know what I want and that my expectations are too high. Too high? Geez touch my leg now and again, comfort me, show me I am important, make me feel loved. Don't look at me like I'm insane for asking to do something nice for me. You made me coffee today and therefore you've met your requirements? And then there is the inevitable "well if you just waited I was gonna do something nice" game. I have a hunch I'll be waiting for the rest if my life at this pace. I need to reset right now, went for a walk to cool off but didn't feel better, had a beer still not feeling any better.
Dude! Get hold of yourself!
That was me for awhile earlier this year. Go for another walk. That one wasn't long enough. Make it long enough so that all that's left in your head is nothing.
My taker was like that too. I'm giving, giving, giving and all I wanted was just a touch. Learn to control yourself. It will take time to learn the MB habits. Even now I still have a slip up. It's a constant struggle sometimes.
Keep trying Hilltopper!! You're better than this!!
you might think you're doing great things for her - but to me.. It really seems like you're tallying a giant bill all the time. Like... I do this thing (that I think is great) for you .. Now you owe me.. When are you going to pay? How would you like it it you went into a store and they said.. - we smiled at you when you came in .. That's a buck. We followed you around so we could help you if you needed it.. - that's 10 bucks. we carried the clothes you wanted to try on to the dressing room -that's 10 bucks.. And so on. I'd first be saying - get the heck away from me.. I didn't ask for that that stuff and it isn't worth the price. And eventually I'd be pissed off and avoid the place altogether.
Your descriptions of yourself remind me of that. Nothing good ever comes without expectations - which would sure drain my love bucket.
Just acted like a jerk. It wasn't really something my wife did that set me off, it is what she doesn't do. My taker wants his needs met, gets frustrated when they are not met and picks a fight rather than asking my wife to meet them. My big realization today is that I'm a little *** edit ***. I do everything she asks of me. I ask for nothing in return and go figure I get no ENs met. It's a huge ego blow to be a little *** edit *** not to mention probably very unattractive to my wife. I wouldn't respect me if I was her. My instincts are telling me to not do anything she asks, yeah that'll teach her a lesson. You keep telling me to be patient and that my wife will begin to meet my needs if I behave a certain way. I don't have faith that this will happen. It's like I obsess over making her happy but I'm not on her radar. My wife tells me she doesn't know what I want and that my expectations are too high. Too high? Geez touch my leg now and again, comfort me, show me I am important, make me feel loved. Don't look at me like I'm insane for asking to do something nice for me. You made me coffee today and therefore you've met your requirements? And then there is the inevitable "well if you just waited I was gonna do something nice" game. I have a hunch I'll be waiting for the rest if my life at this pace. I need to reset right now, went for a walk to cool off but didn't feel better, had a beer still not feeling any better.
Okay, I've read the beginning, and I've glanced through the middle, but I want to go back to the beginning.
Basically, you were a jerk. The rest of it is why you think it was okay to be a jerk.
Here's the truth: it's never okay to be a jerk, for any reason. Even if your wife isn't meeting your needs, even if you're not sure things are working, even if she's being a jerk to you ... it's never okay to be a jerk. In fact, it's abusive.
No matter what you plan to do, no matter what you think is or isn't going to happen, you need to do something about the fact that you were a jerk.
Here is what I suggest for a START:
"I'm sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me. How can I make it up to you."
Put some space in between those sentences; those are bullet points; build around them.
You may not believe that meeting your wife's emotional needs will result in getting your needs met. You may be right, maybe not. But I will tell you one thing for certain: you using tools like disrespect and anger will absolutely ensure that your needs do not get met long time. If you ever get what you want that way, it will be short term, and it will generate so much resentment that you may never get them met again, and you may even cause an aversive reaction to be associated with meeting your needs.
This doesn't get better until you put the weapons down. (SDs, DJs, AOs) It will not get better. No matter what comes next in your plan, step number one needs to be to put those down. Otherwise all you are dealing with is mutually assured destruction.
Meeting emotional needs is like learning to play a complicated musical instrument like a piano.
You may have learned how to play a scale.
She is still learning how to tune the instrument and can't sound a single note, yet.
From her point of view, you might as well be asking her to play a symphony.
You are not even a week out from your last fight. That's too soon to be expecting as much as you are expecting.
When you wish your wife would do something, and she does not, and you react this negatively -- you are making a demand.
And the way you are writing about it above is disrespectful.
These tools will not get you what you want.
Remember when it looked for a little while like things were looking up, a day or two back? Do you want to know what started that? It was your commitment to eliminate love busters. Now you are pulling them back out for use again. As long as you do that, don't expect much.
Markos - I totally agree. You just put it a lot more clear for Hill.
Thanks!
I totally agree with you, too, Powerbane. Especially the "That was me for awhile earlier this year" part. That was definitely me.
Hill, have you ever lifted weights, tried to decrease the time you ran a mile, or played a sport?
When you step in the weightroom, you don't just sit down and bench 225 pounds (just throwing a number out there). You start with the bar and make sure your form is good. Then you start adding a bit of weight and slowly start getting stronger. Or you start running and it takes you 12 minutes to run a mile and you want to do it in 8 minutes. So you keep at it and little by little you start getting to where you want to be.
I have middle school and high school soccer players. With high school, I�m pretty much able to concentrate on tactics and not worry about technique. In other words, I don�t have to work with my striker to correctly �strike� the ball into the goal like I do a middle school soccer player. But when I had them in middle school, we had to start with the basics�knee over ball, body over knee, etc. I can�t just throw them in a formation and expect them to �get it�. They have to slowly learn the basics and they will fail a lot at first. They learn from experience and practice. But with my middle school athletes, it does me no good to get upset and yell at them if they don�t perform well when they�re just beginning.
I worked with a new client today in the gym. We started with dumbbell pressing. Her form was terrible. So I had to go through and show her the correct way to press. And she started with 10 pounds. Would it have done me any good to say, �Geez! Why can�t you get this? And only 10 pounds? Really? Why can�t you do better?!� Then we started on the conditioning aspect, she was getting exhausted on the first circuit and could barely make it 200 meters on the rowing machine. And even her form on the rowing machine was off so she was using way too much effort. Thing is she had no idea what she was doing. I can�t expect her to perform at the same level as my 21 year old trainee that I�ve been working with for 3 years now. I have to start her off on basic techniques and keep positively reinforcing them patiently.
You can�t expect immediate results. And getting emotional isn�t helping. If you think you�re acting like a �*** edit ***� then stop. It really is that easy. It�s easy and difficult at the same time. You know all those emotions that you can�t get control of that you realize you need to? Well, your wife is having trouble in the same way. And not only does she realize she needs to do a better job but now she�s afraid of the way you�ll react. We have a basketball coach at the school that if the athletes technique is off, he makes them run. So instead of working with the athlete to fix their shooting, he just yells and punishes the entire team. So now not only does this basketball player not know how to correctly to shoot but now he�s extremely nervous every time he steps up to shoot and it absolutely makes his shooting off more because now he�s nervous and doesn�t want to disappoint the coach.
My question to the basketball coach is, �do you really think he�s missing baskets on purpose?� and the same question to you, �do you really think she�s sitting around thinking how she�s not going to meet your needs today?�
Walk me thru two things:
1. How to say no to her. She asks for anything I say sure. I'm not even into anything anymore. My likes revolve around whatever she wants, totally pathetic.
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
I'm similar that way, so I'll be interested to read people's advice to you about it.
Walk me thru two things:
1. How to say no to her. She asks for anything I say sure. I'm not even into anything anymore. My likes revolve around whatever she wants, totally pathetic.
Don't respond immediately to her requests. Give yourself a few minutes to process it, to actually weigh it. If you can't give her an answer right away ask if it is ok if you think about it for a little while.
Now, let her know you are going to start doing this in advance so she doesn't feel like you are blowing her off. Sit down and let her know that you want to be able to learn to POJA and in order to do that you have to be able to ensure that you are enthusiastic about things. This will involve taking time to asses how you really feel, which you are out of the habit of doing. You've become used to subsuming your desires and wishes for hers so much so that you're not even sure what you like and don't like.
Now, it is ok if sometimes you go with it and say yes. For example, we struggled early on implementing POJA for eating out because I refused to go to a place unless my H was enthusiastic about it... turns out he wasn't enthusiastic about any place in particular so we'd get frustrated trying to find a place he was enthusiastic about. He always just said yes to whatever I picked before. Turns out he WAS enthusiastic about going out to dinner with me. The dinner and time with me were key for him, the particular location didn't matter at all.
So if you're saying yes a lot and can't seem to figure out why your resentment isn't building, it is likely that while you may not enjoy the specific thing you are doing, you ARE enthusiastic about meeting your wife's needs or requests, and that is ok.
The best guide in these things is to measure and gague your own resentment. This is why I say take a moment before responding to a request from your wife. Take a moment to check in with your Taker and see how he feels.
Maybe you say yes to your wife, and you notice yourself getting irritated about something, take a moment to check in with your Taker to see what it is that is bothering you. Then let your wife know you aren't enthusiastic about what you are doing anymore, let her know why and ask to try to do something else instead.
You are used to shutting your Taker up. Give him time to speak, when he does surface, acknowledge what he is wanting and express that to your wife so you can both address it.
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
The nice thing about understanding ENs is that once they are established and a plan is laid out for meeting them you don't have to constantly ask, there is a plan in place to address them. This is because your needs become met by habit. Then, you only have to check in occasionally or ask for something specific you may need.
For example, my husband needs affection. I know what kind of affection he likes so I have made it a point to cultivate the habit of doing these acts of affection he likes every day. At this point they have become second nature. I like affection a different way which DH has worked to develop the habit of meeting. A while back I noticed I was feeling a bit frustrated with him and realized it was because he had slipped a bit in meeting this particular need, so I simply mentioned I'd missed his little gifts and notes and I'd like to see more - because he understands the importance of needs he stepped it up and we're back on track.
Now you have to stop seeing yourself as an inconvenience. Your needs are important. Shutting up your Taker is the path to fueling your resentment and eroding your marriage.
DH had a hard time with this as well. He hated asking for things, he felt like he was just making trouble and inconveniencing me. It was tough, but once he realized how much his not asking for what he wanted was hurting our marriage, he started speaking up. His not asking for the needs he wanted met was depriving me of a vital opportunity to love and care for him, he was robbing me of the chance to love him.
That is what you are doing when you don't ask for what you need from your wife. You are robbing her of the chance to build intimacy and show love to you. She has committed to love and care for you - if she doesn't know what it is she has to do in order to do that she cannot do it.
The hardest for DH was learning to ask for sex. I have a lower sex drive than him but 99.999% of the time I'm more than willing to jump in the sack if he arches an eyebrow, he just has to ASK. It took a while before he became comfortable with asking.
A key factor, and this is something for your wife to do, is your wife needs to be open and willing to consider meeting those needs you want in a loving and positive way. I found the more positive I was about having sex when DH asked, the more likely he was to ask next time he wanted some.
However you can make this easier on her by making sure you phrase your requests thoughtfully as opposed to relying on Love Busters to get what you need.
Ok my thoughts seem to be all over the map but I hope some of this helps.
Hilltopper, be aware that if you are saying "no" to something that is an emotional need for your wife, you will be missing an important opportunity to deposit love units.
The best thing to do in such a case is to find a way in which you can be enthusiastic about meeting the need. The classic example given here has the genders reversed: a typical man has an emotional need for sexual fulfillment while many women don't want to fulfill their husband's need. In such a situation, they have to work together to find a way in which she will be enthusiastic about meeting her need.
If at all possible, don't just say "no," say "I have a problem with that, but I want to find an alternative that will make us both happy."
The most important thing you can do right now is to focus on making massive love bank deposits every day (and not making any withdrawals, of course).
Also, make sure your "no," if you have to say one, is "no, I don't want to do that," and not "no, I want to do this, and we agreed to do this, and we're doing it anyway." Review the POJA: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If you are planning to do something and discover your wife is reluctant, don't do it!
Walk me thru two things:
1. How to say no to her. She asks for anything I say sure. I'm not even into anything anymore. My likes revolve around whatever she wants, totally pathetic.
Don't respond immediately to her requests. Give yourself a few minutes to process it, to actually weigh it. If you can't give her an answer right away ask if it is ok if you think about it for a little while.
Now, let her know you are going to start doing this in advance so she doesn't feel like you are blowing her off. Sit down and let her know that you want to be able to learn to POJA and in order to do that you have to be able to ensure that you are enthusiastic about things. This will involve taking time to asses how you really feel, which you are out of the habit of doing. You've become used to subsuming your desires and wishes for hers so much so that you're not even sure what you like and don't like.
Now, it is ok if sometimes you go with it and say yes. For example, we struggled early on implementing POJA for eating out because I refused to go to a place unless my H was enthusiastic about it... turns out he wasn't enthusiastic about any place in particular so we'd get frustrated trying to find a place he was enthusiastic about. He always just said yes to whatever I picked before. Turns out he WAS enthusiastic about going out to dinner with me. The dinner and time with me were key for him, the particular location didn't matter at all.
So if you're saying yes a lot and can't seem to figure out why your resentment isn't building, it is likely that while you may not enjoy the specific thing you are doing, you ARE enthusiastic about meeting your wife's needs or requests, and that is ok.
The best guide in these things is to measure and gague your own resentment. This is why I say take a moment before responding to a request from your wife. Take a moment to check in with your Taker and see how he feels.
Maybe you say yes to your wife, and you notice yourself getting irritated about something, take a moment to check in with your Taker to see what it is that is bothering you. Then let your wife know you aren't enthusiastic about what you are doing anymore, let her know why and ask to try to do something else instead.
You are used to shutting your Taker up. Give him time to speak, when he does surface, acknowledge what he is wanting and express that to your wife so you can both address it.
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
The nice thing about understanding ENs is that once they are established and a plan is laid out for meeting them you don't have to constantly ask, there is a plan in place to address them. This is because your needs become met by habit. Then, you only have to check in occasionally or ask for something specific you may need.
For example, my husband needs affection. I know what kind of affection he likes so I have made it a point to cultivate the habit of doing these acts of affection he likes every day. At this point they have become second nature. I like affection a different way which DH has worked to develop the habit of meeting. A while back I noticed I was feeling a bit frustrated with him and realized it was because he had slipped a bit in meeting this particular need, so I simply mentioned I'd missed his little gifts and notes and I'd like to see more - because he understands the importance of needs he stepped it up and we're back on track.
Now you have to stop seeing yourself as an inconvenience. Your needs are important. Shutting up your Taker is the path to fueling your resentment and eroding your marriage.
DH had a hard time with this as well. He hated asking for things, he felt like he was just making trouble and inconveniencing me. It was tough, but once he realized how much his not asking for what he wanted was hurting our marriage, he started speaking up. His not asking for the needs he wanted met was depriving me of a vital opportunity to love and care for him, he was robbing me of the chance to love him.
That is what you are doing when you don't ask for what you need from your wife. You are robbing her of the chance to build intimacy and show love to you. She has committed to love and care for you - if she doesn't know what it is she has to do in order to do that she cannot do it.
The hardest for DH was learning to ask for sex. I have a lower sex drive than him but 99.999% of the time I'm more than willing to jump in the sack if he arches an eyebrow, he just has to ASK. It took a while before he became comfortable with asking.
A key factor, and this is something for your wife to do, is your wife needs to be open and willing to consider meeting those needs you want in a loving and positive way. I found the more positive I was about having sex when DH asked, the more likely he was to ask next time he wanted some.
However you can make this easier on her by making sure you phrase your requests thoughtfully as opposed to relying on Love Busters to get what you need.
Ok my thoughts seem to be all over the map but I hope some of this helps.
My wife and I had a long meaningful talk on the way home from our trip. It was rocky and I misbehaved multiple times which I've since apologized for. Moving forward I think we both discovered that the number one way for me to not read into things and use SD's to get my needs me is to get much, much better at telling my wife what I want. For example we went to two wineries on the way home, had fun, then she began looking out the window in silence. Based on past experience I just assumed she was uncomfortable talking with me or giving me the silent treatment. So I figured to remain silent myself and give her some time. Instead she began digging on why I was "stewing" which led to multiple DJ's back and forth, my wife saying some things that really tore my heart out, followed by more silence, then amazingly an awesome effort from my wife to diffuse the situation and tell me that she doesn't know what I want. She wants honesty all the time. She wants me to do the following which seem to be a good plan to me:
1. Always ask her if I don't understand what she just said or means. Do this to make sure I don't read into what she does or doesn't mean.
2. Always tell her what I want. Whether it is SF, affection, to hold my hand, to go out to dinner, you name it, I need to ask it.
Communication right now in our lives horrific. I never know what she wants or where I stand and it is the same thing for her. This will improve dramatically. Asking for things doesn't come naturally for me but I know it needs to be done now if we want to save our marriage. This starts today. I will likely need some help with this task which might sound easy to most of you but is really, really hard for me.
I wanted to be clear about moving forward. When my wife asked to ask her for things I need, she put her hands on my hand and looked me in the eyes. She repeated it again and again. It made me feel good that "everything is ok" and I needed that. It made me know I can ask my wife anything. She does love me but us incredibly frustrated with me. Tonight really nice wine together after kids go down.
Hilltopper, be aware that if you are saying "no" to something that is an emotional need for your wife, you will be missing an important opportunity to deposit love units.
The best thing to do in such a case is to find a way in which you can be enthusiastic about meeting the need. The classic example given here has the genders reversed: a typical man has an emotional need for sexual fulfillment while many women don't want to fulfill their husband's need. In such a situation, they have to work together to find a way in which she will be enthusiastic about meeting her need.
If at all possible, don't just say "no," say "I have a problem with that, but I want to find an alternative that will make us both happy."
The most important thing you can do right now is to focus on making massive love bank deposits every day (and not making any withdrawals, of course).
Also, make sure your "no," if you have to say one, is "no, I don't want to do that," and not "no, I want to do this, and we agreed to do this, and we're doing it anyway." Review the POJA: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If you are planning to do something and discover your wife is reluctant, don't do it!
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score. For some reason over time I started the habit of not asking my wife for anything including meeting my needs. It makes no sense really and I guess there is no point of getting Freudian about it. I let her know that when I do ask for things on a rare occasion that it she has a habit of not outright saying "no", but instead pushes them off for another day. I frequently get the answer of "maybe tomorrow night", or "not right now because I'm too tired." The example I gave to her was about massages. We bought massage oil enthusiastically together a few months ago. We gave each other one massage(no sex just massage)and it was an amazing experience. I've asked her 4-5 times since then and always get the brush off. Being a "reader into things" type of person I just take that as a reason to never ask again. She doesn't say no to everything, but she makes me feel discouraged quite frequently.
Last night we were doing good and had a slight bump in the road when it came time to figure out what dinner to order for her folks for mother's day. Basically it had to do with me not knowing what my wife wanted and my wife not knowing what she wanted too. To my wife not having a disappointing meal is a big deal to her and I know this. I told her the reason I was not inclined to order the food for us is because of the backlash of getting something she didn't like or wasn't satisfied with. Its not that I wasn't willing to take charge and do this for her, it is more that she is very hard to please in this area. She has no problem telling me if I cook something for her that she doesn't like. I guess what I'm saying is that from my perspective my wife is hard to please and I've grown accustomed to being fearful of "screwing up". She was tired, wanted me to take charge of something for us, and I really didn't want to do it because of the frequency of being criticized. Tough call here for me, her EN from me was having me take initiative about our RA without having to be asked, yet on my end I wanted to avoid what has become a common result of criticism. How might Dr Harley suggest I handle those scenarios?
Don't let her criticism of you become a reason for you to not try to meet her emotional needs. If you have tried in the past and been criticized, incorporate the criticism into your plans for trying again in the future. Don't give up. Meeting your wife's emotional needs is a complicated habit that you will be able to make improvement on all your life.
Her criticism is a disrespectful judgment, and it's a problem that you want her to solve in order to make your marriage better. Dr. Harley has worksheets for that.
Try again to meet her emotional needs, and if you get criticized, communicate it to her through the worksheet and CONTINUE to try to meet her emotional needs.
Just a couple of posts back you mentioned that you caught yourself "behaving badly." You didn't give us a lot of details, but I surmise there were selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and/or angry outbursts involved. I am certain that it caused pain to your wife and probably made her feel like giving up. Do you want your wife to stop trying to meet your emotional needs as a result, or do you want her to keep trying to meet your emotional needs and be patient with you while you learn to eliminate SDs, DJs, and AOs? If you want her to be patient with you and continue trying to meet your emotional needs, then I suggest you also be patient with her and continue to try to meet hers.
You will get better, and she will have less to criticize. And she will learn to eliminate criticism and communicate with respectful complaints, instead.
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
There were all three of those and yes I caused pain to my wife and postponed the healing and meeting of EN's. The difference is that I learned from our last question to always ask my wife what she means or how she is feeling rather than just guessing, making assumptions based on the situation, and coming to my own conclusions. This is what I've done since the beginning of my journey with MB and always gets me in to trouble. I learned it is ok to ask my wife if she is irritated at me without offending her. She can answer me "no" or "yes because of this" and we can go about our day. Prior to this revelation I would not ask her, assume she was irritated at me, try and figure out why she was irritated, realize there was nothing to be irritated about, realize that I didn't do anything to make her irritated, then get mad because she was irritated at me for no reason, then lash out with a DJ or SD to retaliate, when in reality there was nothing of the sort taking place.
I also learned to ask for things from her. This morning before I left I said, "I love big hugs in the morning before I leave for work." Know what she did? She gave me a big hug and a kiss.
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
You cut it out!
Just kidding, I was explaining why I think I tried to justify my desire to want to say no. I DID cut it out after I realized there is no justification in doing so and will never do it again unless the request is a SD.
Communication right now in our lives horrific. I never know what she wants or where I stand and it is the same thing for her. This will improve dramatically. Asking for things doesn't come naturally for me but I know it needs to be done now if we want to save our marriage. This starts today. I will likely need some help with this task which might sound easy to most of you but is really, really hard for me.
How do you typically ask for things? Can you relate a typical scenario?
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
You cut it out!
Just kidding
I
did. Ask Markos how happy he is now
I think I tried to justify my desire to want to say no. I DID cut it out after I realized there is no justification in doing so and will never do it again unless the request is a SD.
You can and should say no, btw, even if she makes a request instead of a demand, but you are not enthusiastic about the request. Don't let your Giver take over and drain your own love bank by letting her gain at your expense. The goal is to find a solution that makes BOTH of you happy.
Your Giver will destroy your marriage just as much as your Taker will.
Still listening to the radio program? Friday had a great segment about the difference between complaints and criticism that you might want to hear.
Hi Hilltopper,
I've been reading your thread and have noticed a few consistent "themes" in your postings (and please take my observations as constructive criticism):
1. **edit** behavior and accept the fact that any AO's, DJ's, etc are completely unacceptable and inexcusable, you will continue to be a jerk. Even if you apologize afterward, your apologies mean nothing if you continue to act the same way without making changes. You have a lot of growing to do in this area and it is going to take a lot of awareness and effort in the beginning. You've gotten some great advice on how to curb your behavior. Soak it in, read it over and over, analyze your behavior in a journal, whatever you have to do to fully embrace new habits, DO IT.
2. You are HORRIBLY impatient. You have spent YEARS damaging your marriage. It is going to take time to recover from said damage. Think of it this way: You eat poorly from Halloween until New Years because of the holidays and gain 20 pounds. Are you going to lose 20 pounds in 3 days just because you go to the gym for an hour or two or is this going to take a few months to work off? Your wife is hurt and scared and you continue with bad behaviors when you start feeling as though she's not working hard enough. Again, plenty of people have told you to work on your own side of the street. They don't mean anything else by it other than fix YOURSELF. I'm not saying your wife had no part in the damage that was done, but at this point it's irrelevant. She's on board with MB, she knows what to do, she's learning to use the tools, so knock it off! No more score keeping, no more expectations of ANY kind, just do what you're supposed to be doing. Also, you have no say in how long it takes for your wife to feel safe enough to be affectionate with you in a way that "comes naturally" so STOP with the fights already. You can't go more than a few days until you let your ridiculous expectations take over and you love bust your wife again. When you do that, you are starting from SQUARE ONE, each and EVERY time. Do YOURSELF a favor if you want to see improvement and STOP FIGHTING!
**edit**
Bottom line is you have a lot of work to do. Just keep working away. If you REALLY TRULY want to save your marriage, keep working, stop making excuses and lose your expectations.
Hill, aBetterMe is right in that you need to do more about your abusive love busters. An apology alone isn't sufficient. You have been involved in these for years, and it's going to take your wife some time to recover from that, and of course she can't do that if they are ongoing.
Have you read the opening chapters of Dr. Harley's book
Love Busters, recently? There's a conversation in there that frightens me in which a man has it out with his wife and finally tells her what's bothering him. It frightens me because I identify with it so much. It sounds just like how I've treated Prisca. The scary thing is that at the end of the conversation
he feels much better! His wife, on the other hand, does not. She is traumatized. She may agree to what he wants, but because he used love busters along the path to getting it, giving him what he wants results in debits in his account in her love bank, destroying their marriage.
Grace isn't here giving us her perception on the weekend, and so we have no way of knowing how she feels about it. I assure you that if she does not feel as optimistic as you do right now, then that is important information. She may feel terrible as a result of your love busters, even though you apologized!
No tolerance for SDs, DJs, and AOs in marriage means exactly what it says: NO tolerance, at all. These behaviors are like nuclear weapons. They will not give you what you want; they only set up a situation like the United States and the Soviet Union in the Cold War: mutually assured destruction. The only way to win that game is not to play it.
You guys have got to avoid fights at all costs.
AT ALL COSTS. That literally means you should leave conflicts unresolved temporarily if that is what it takes for you to avoid fights. You should leave your needs unmet temporarily if that is what it takes for you to avoid fights. You can refuse to fight no matter what she does or does not do. You can refuse to use SDs, DJs, and AOs no matter what she does or does not do.
Your conversations have got to become pleasant. Conversation is almost certainly a top emotional need for one or both of you. If it is not one now, it almost certainly will move into the top once other problems are taken care of and the two of you move toward intimacy. Probably solving conversations are usually not enjoyable and don't meet the emotional need for conversation at all. Even less so when they go into love busters! As long as you engage in love busters, you will be creating a situation where you cannot meet your wife's need for intimate conversation. A better idea on your drive might have been, after your bad behavior, to DROP the subject and save it for later and engage in some ENJOYABLE conversation if your wife was willing. Conversation is just about the make-or-break EN for many women. At all costs you must avoid the enemies of conversation that Dr. Harley lists in His Needs, Her Needs.
I hope this doesn't sound too rough, but you have got to learn to hold yourself to an absolutely high standard of NO tolerance. Be on your best behavior for the woman whose heart you are trying to win. It is better for you and us here to get into a tussle and rough you up holding you to a higher standard than for your wife to feel like she's having to drag you up to that standard.
But of course it's best not to have such a tussle at all.
I don't know that individual counseling and delving into childhood issues is really a positive way forward. Dr. Harley says that doing so makes the problems of the past into problems of the present. But we all already have enough problems of the present! Learn to keep a lid on your behavior in the present, and meet your wife's emotional needs, and your marriage will recover and thrive, probably in fairly short order! But until it is thriving, if you are still engaging in love busters, don't fall into the trap of looking at anything else as being the cause of the problem.
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
You cut it out!
Just kidding
I
did. Ask Markos how happy he is now
I think I tried to justify my desire to want to say no. I DID cut it out after I realized there is no justification in doing so and will never do it again unless the request is a SD.
You can and should say no, btw, even if she makes a request instead of a demand, but you are not enthusiastic about the request. Don't let your Giver take over and drain your own love bank by letting her gain at your expense. The goal is to find a solution that makes BOTH of you happy.
Your Giver will destroy your marriage just as much as your Taker will.
Yes you are correct I can say no to things that I'm not enthusiastic about, forgot to mention that. I've read about the Giver and Taker many times and I would like to understand it a bit more. Being a Giver has caused a lot of damage and resentment in my marriage. I'm confused about the difference between "not letting my Giver take over", and "still giving and meeting my wife's EN's". Do I want to be the Giver, but just check with my Taker?
Yes you are correct I can say no to things that I'm not enthusiastic about, forgot to mention that. I've read about the Giver and Taker many times and I would like to understand it a bit more. Being a Giver has caused a lot of damage and resentment in my marriage. I'm confused about the difference between "not letting my Giver take over", and "still giving and meeting my wife's EN's". Do I want to be the Giver, but just check with my Taker?
The Policy of Joint Agreement is your best guide to navigating this. If you and your wife BOTH feel enthusiastic about something, then that means that it satisfies both of your Givers and both of your Takers.
Don't agree to something just to make your wife happy if it is going to make you resentful, particularly if you are going to keep score or AO about it afterward.
On the other hand, don't fall into the trap of leaving your wife's needs unmet ... look for ways that you can be enthusiastic about meeting them. You need to be making MASSIVE love bank deposits, DAILY.
Do I want to be the Giver, but just check with my Taker?
The Giver and Taker are not good/bad in and of themselves. They are instincts to watch for within yourself. Your Giver will give without regard to your own welfare, and this can get you into trouble, so you should learn to watch for it. Your Taker will take without regard to your wife's welfare, and this can also get you into trouble, so you should learn to watch for it.
You should also pay attention to your wife's Giver and Taker. Her Giver may be making sacrifices to do what you ask for. Never pursue a reluctant agreement; if she is reluctant about a request, change the circumstances of what you are requesting in a way that makes her ENTHUSIASTIC about what you are requesting, or else WITHDRAW the request.
Also, her Taker is likely to give you VITAL INFORMATION. Her Taker will naturally not take your welfare into account. Do not punish her for this. Instead, use the information her Taker gives you about what she wants, and brainstorm ways to meet the needs her Taker expresses in ways that you can be enthusiastic about.
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
Hilltopper - I've seen this question asked many times throughout this thread. What SPECIFICALLY has your wife asked of you to meet her needs? I'm not getting the impression all the gifts you're giving her are what she wants.
One other thought - I decided to stop drinking over a month ago and this has also made big improvements in my marriage and our interactions. I love a glass of good wine, but it wasn't making me into the person I want to be. I seems as though you both enjoy a good glass on a regular basis and that drinking goes hand in hand with your UA time. Have you considered leaving alcohol alone until you guys get back on your feet?
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
Hilltopper - I've seen this question asked many times throughout this thread. What SPECIFICALLY has your wife asked of you to meet her needs? I'm not getting the impression all the gifts you're giving her are what she wants.
I realize that I've shared a couple of "gift giving" stories which has given the impression that I am perhaps trying to buy my wife or meet her EN's improperly. If you read back through there are many stories of other things totally unrelated to gifts of any kind that were meant to show that I'm making an effort. A while back when we were just learning this stuff, my wife told me her #1 EN was romance. My exercise in giving thoughtful gifts was showing "effort". My wife is concerned that I just don't care about anything and has mentioned that the key element to much of her EN's, whether it be affection, DS, etc is "effort." On my end I felt that my efforts were either never received well or never led to my own EN's being met so I kind of "gave up." To answer your question my wife wants "affection", "conversation", and most of all "honesty". She interprets much of my affection for her as being thoughtful. Conversation isn't her talking and me pretending to listen, it is me looking her in the eyes and taking a genuine interest in what is meaningful to her. Honesty(this is the biggy) is me not clamming up or making faces when something is bothering me, it is telling her immediately how I'm feeling, or asking her if something is wrong rather than coming to my own conclusions. I realized that despite being an honest person, I was not being honest by withholding my feelings and keeping it bottled up inside. Keep in mind this discovery occurred yesterday about noon so the implementation of this honesty is still new. I have yet since that time yesterday withheld anything from my wife and will continue to do so.
Still listening to the radio program? Friday had a great segment about the difference between complaints and criticism that you might want to hear.
Missed Friday because we were traveling. I also missed it because I read something to her Friday morning off the forum and she told me she needed a break from MB. I figured it not a good idea to then hop in the car for our trip and turn on the MB Radio Program. I did listen to it this morning which might have been Friday's show, but just the tail end. I'm gonna listen today's show on the way home. Very priceless stuff on there.
I don't know that individual counseling and delving into childhood issues is really a positive way forward. Dr. Harley says that doing so makes the problems of the past into problems of the present.
I'm totally blowing up this thread! LOL
Hi Markos,
I while I understand Dr. Harley's reasoning regarding individual counseling, I suggest it here because it has helped me so much with understanding more about my present behavior. I'm a very logical person and it's helpful to have a neutral third party to provide insight and to bounce feelings and ideas off of.
The purpose of counseling in my situation was not to have a place to wallow in my anxiety or sadness but rather a "class" to attend to learn more about my strengths and shortcomings. Counseling is not efffective if you are passive, but if you put in the work and take it seriously there is so much you can learn.
In this context, I think Hilltopper could find counseling useful. There is so much blame between him and his wife, and he doesn't seem truly willing to look at himself in all of this. He's essentially says over and over "I'm putting in the work to meet her EN's but she's not doing good enough in response." And while he recognizes when he AO or DJ's, he's not making much in the way of changes, just apologizing and doing the same thing 3 days later and then blames his wife for it. I think counseling could really help with anger management as well.
Just my 2 cents.
Great, keep listening! Try to catch Friday's show if the iPhone app lets you go back.
Did Grace say why she wanted a break from Marriage Builders?
In this context, I think Hilltopper could find counseling useful. There is so much blame between him and his wife, and he doesn't seem truly willing to look at himself in all of this. He's essentially says over and over "I'm putting in the work to meet her EN's but she's not doing good enough in response." And while he recognizes when he AO or DJ's, he's not making much in the way of changes, just apologizing and doing the same thing 3 days later and then blames his wife for it. I think counseling could really help with anger management as well.
Actually, he has come quite a ways in changing himself. Hilltopper and Grace have only just started the program. Give them some time -- these are not skills that are perfected overnight.
Hill, aBetterMe is right in that you need to do more about your abusive love busters. An apology alone isn't sufficient. You have been involved in these for years, and it's going to take your wife some time to recover from that, and of course she can't do that if they are ongoing.
Have you read the opening chapters of Dr. Harley's book Love Busters, recently? There's a conversation in there that frightens me in which a man has it out with his wife and finally tells her what's bothering him. It frightens me because I identify with it so much. It sounds just like how I've treated Prisca. The scary thing is that at the end of the conversation he feels much better! His wife, on the other hand, does not. She is traumatized. She may agree to what he wants, but because he used love busters along the path to getting it, giving him what he wants results in debits in his account in her love bank, destroying their marriage.
Grace isn't here giving us her perception on the weekend, and so we have no way of knowing how she feels about it. I assure you that if she does not feel as optimistic as you do right now, then that is important inf