Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Speckledlady Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:33 AM
Hello, this is my first post I've just been having a hard time finding helpful information on dealing with verbal and physical abuse in a christian marriage. Secular groups answer: DIVORCE! Christian groups: Submit to your husband!
My husband isn't a monster or anything hes generally a good guy but when he loses his temper he can sometimes get nasty. We've been married 6 years, known eachother 9 and in those years he physically hurts me maybe once a year. This can involve hitting me in the face, kicking me numerous times, throwing objects at me, pulling my hair etc. He also can be verbally abusive this week instead of asking me nicely to wash a tray said Woman wash the tray! I said if you ask nicely I have a name. He said Woman wash the tray NOW! And he never apologises for these cases sometimes even saying its to teach me a lesson. So generally he is a nice guy just every now and then loses it. I know we all lose our temper sometime and no one is blameless I just need advice on maybe how to get him to vent his anger another way or what I should do?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:46 AM
Dr Harley is a bible believing Christian and his answer is for you to separate until your husband gets professional help for his problem. You should not submit to a husband who abuses you and doing so only encourages his abusive behavior. It is up to you to get away from him until and unless he gets himself under control. Until that happens, he is a very dangerous man and your life is in jeopardy.

Your husband is a dangerous man who has the ability to kill you. And that is a very high risk as long as he has no control over his temper.

Here is a Q&A from Dr Harley, but you can also email Dr Harley about your problem and he will help you. Click on the radio link at the top of the page and it will give you instructions:

Domestic Violence
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:48 AM
Are you married? Did you live together before marriage?
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:00 AM
Married for six years (there was no verbal or physical abuse during dating) and have 2 kids one is special needs and is at therapy 4 days a week so I can't just up and leave. In my family even a temp seperation would be a huge no no. Also, I would have nowhere to go with 2 kids. There is nowhere I could up and leave to. Its hard cause as christians your always supposed to just pray through everything and these kind of topics are sort of hush hush in the church. As I said generally he is a good guy, physical incidents are just about once a year and it has been months since the last one. Verbal abuse is more frequent but I just try to ignore it. If he would stop the abuse it would be great and we could move on and work on other areas of the marriage. Or even just apologise or admit it was wrong. There was once he was angry at me cause while leaving work he backed into another car and he blamed me even though at the time of the accident I was at home watching the kids. He said I cost him a lot of money this time. I couldn't understand how. He said because the last time I had used the car I'd moved the rear view mirror and he was distracted fixing it thats why he backed into the car. So he randomly gets angry at just wierd things like that. But then he can be really nice the rest of the time. Just these weird incidents.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:05 AM
What is the email I could write him at?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
. In my family even a temp seperation would be a huge no no.


Of course it's not a no no. You are an adult woman and can make your own decisions. You are not a child and have a responsibility to protect your life and that of your children. While it may be hard to separate, there are many ways to do it. For example, you get a legal separation that requires him to leave. I would find out your legal rights.

Have you told your family that he is a cowardly wife beater? Have you called the police and had him arrested? I would do both of those things. Tell all your family members and ask for their support. And the next time he touches you, call the police and have him arrested. That is probably the best thing you can do for him. But hopefully, there won't be a next time if you take steps to get him out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:13 AM
Can you go stay with your parents? Do they know he is a wife beater?
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:20 AM
Its hard cause as a christian till death do us part is always pounded in your brain. I do care for him and don't want to leave him. Hes generally a good guy and great with the kids. I mentioned the few physical abuse incidents to my sisters and instantly felt guilty and ashamed like I should keep things like that to myself and that God would send me to hell or something for speaking bad of my husband. So I haven't told other family then them because I'd feel like an awful person. I've mentioned verbal abuse to other family members but their advice was to just tell him to apologise and stop to which he laughed at me and said no now go away you annoy me. I know I'm not perfect I've called him mean names at times when angry but I always feel guilty and apologise to him. Its hard cause his verbal abuse he never apolgises for. And sometimes when hes mad he'll drive recklessly even if he knows im terrified in the passenger seat. Also he has a rich family I don't have money so if there ever was a seperation hed just get custody of the kids and go which there is no way id ever have my kids taken from me! I'd have nowhere to go cause my family wouldn't support seperation. I've never called the cops before he'd just deny it and get furious at me. And he has a very sweet gentle nature in public so everyone automatically assumes it must be me. I think if he physically tries to hurt me again I'd have to take the kids and go to a hotel or something to try to teach him a lesson. Or hed just yell at me when i got home for wasting money on a hotel. So confused.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:27 AM
I couldn't stay with my parents I wouldn't feel comfortable if there was another incident. On a previous occasion when my mom noticed things were a bit tense between us instead of asking me waht was going on she just asked, "what did you do to him?" Another time I mentioned some struggles I was given a book titled "what its like to be married to me" again suggesting it must be me. As mentioned before I know i'm not always a great wife but I don't ever hit him. I care for him I don't want to leave him and I dont want the kids to not see their dad who they love and hes always kind with.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:28 AM
I would get the help of both your families so they can get involved. TEll your pastor so he can help your husband be a man instead of a punk. Nowhere does the Bible say that you should enable evil or keep it a secret. It says the opposite.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Ephesians 5:11

I would let your families and your pastor know and tell your husband this has to end. Tell him he has to get help for his problem or he needs to get out. If he won't enter an anger management course and get counseling, he needs to hit the road.

Your husband is dangerous, ma'am, and you do him and your family no favors by enabling him. He needs your help in learning to be a man. Help him be a real man.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:30 AM
I guess I'm talking myself into a corner here giving myself no real options but I don't really feel I have any. Just wish I knew a way to make him stop so we could move on.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I care for him I don't want to leave him and I dont want the kids to not see their dad who they love and hes always kind with.


Do you really care for him? If you do, then you will help him be a man and put a stop to this. If he were sick with cancer, wouldn't you get him help? Do you want your kids to see him in prison when he kills you? Who will take care of them if he kills you? Do you not think they deserve a little better than that? Then why not be an adult here and make your husband straighten up?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I guess I'm talking myself into a corner here giving myself no real options but I don't really feel I have any. Just wish I knew a way to make him stop so we could move on.


You are looking for an easy, soft, convenient way out and I don't think you will be successful in that regard. It is going to take a more pro-active, aggressive approach if you are serious about turning this around. I predict that half measures, and sweeping it under the rug will avail you nothing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I couldn't stay with my parents I wouldn't feel comfortable if there was another incident. On a previous occasion when my mom noticed things were a bit tense between us instead of asking me waht was going on she just asked, "what did you do to him?" Another time I mentioned some struggles I was given a book titled "what its like to be married to me" again suggesting it must be me.


How do you expect people to understand the problem if you don't tell them the truth? It seems you are blaming them for not being mind readers. It sounds to me like they were trying to be helpful. I see them taking a more proactive approach than you are yourself. You are doing nothing; they gave you a book to read.

I am not trying to be harsh, but it is going to take much more than apathy and complacence. frown
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:38 AM
I just think on the rating of abuse scale I'm on the lower end of physical abuse (one occurance a year) and only one incident left a bruise though the others were painful and have caused redness and welts. I don't fear for my life (except when he does one of his reckless driving temper tantrums) I don't think it would escalate that much. I do care for him and I want to help him stop it but if i tried anything at this point with the last physical abuse being months ago and he seems to get amnesia about them and deny they ever happened hed be confused and think I was nuts. Or sometimes I wonder if he realises hes hurting me doesn't know his own strength. I just wonder if theres a way to help him stop without seperation. And I think i could only justify a temporary seperation if he hits me again that way thered be no confusion to him as why i was taking the kids for a break.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:44 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
And I think i could only justify a temporary seperation if he hits me again that way thered be no confusion to him as why i was taking the kids for a break.



That sounds like conflict avoidance to me. If he hits you again, you might end up in the hospital. And of course, if he does it again, you should call the police and have him thrown in jail.

Waiting around to see if he beats you up again is a very poor plan that endangers your life.

Did you see my post about getting your families and your pastor involved? Go to him with an ultimatum and give him an opportunity to stop it and to get professional help.

But I think one of the biggest problems here is that you seem very timid and not willing to address this problem as an adult. Do you think this is how a rational adult handles problems?
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:47 AM
The last physical incident wasn't as bad as others. He was in a mood so I put my hand on his shoulder to try to soothe him and he grabbed it and grinded the bones together in my hand it was quite painful. I asked him to apologise and he said no you were being annoying. Verbal is more frequent like I mentioned this week addressing me as Woman instead of my name. I went on a 14km walk that day to have a break from him but wished for a longer one. He didn't want to apologise for that because he said he hadn't done anything wrong. Or I wanted my hair cut cause it was getting ratty and in my eyes and he said no he didn't want me to. I snuck out and did anyway and he just laughed when he saw me and said if anyone says it looks good they are just being polite to you. Or there's silly things like he was making noodles I wanted corn with my noodles we didn't have any so I said id go to the store to get corn. He forbid me and said dont you dare get corn. This made no sense to me so with him shouting in a rage to get back in the house i ran to the car and got corn, cost only a dollar so dont know why it made him mad got home and he said i was not allowed dinner with the rest of them I'd have to make myself a sandwich or something since id disobeyed him about the corn. Its just so frustrating to me that he has these wierd blow ups over things that make no sense. So even the verbal abuse is on the more minor scale but still bothersome and hurtful.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:50 AM
I feel timid about it cause I don't want to hurt him, I don't want my family to hate me, I don't want my children to miss their dad and I don't know where I'd go. I'm afraid God would punish me. If I stay with him I have to put up with hurtful comments and getting hit once a year but I avoid all above problems.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:52 AM
How would leaving him straighten him up though thats whats confusing me. I think he'd be angry and hurt but not really know what was going on since he genuinely believes hes never done any wrong.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I feel timid about it cause I don't want to hurt him, I don't want my family to hate me, I don't want my children to miss their dad and I don't know where I'd go. I'm afraid God would punish me. If I stay with him I have to put up with hurtful comments and getting hit once a year but I avoid all above problems.


Sounds like conflict avoidance comes at a high cost, doesn't it?

Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 11:19 AM
Speckled, I see someone who knows that something is wrong but for whatever reason is afraid to speak up. Your husband is abusing you. Period. There is no scale of acceptable abuse. Abuse is abuse. This will not get better. It will progress. Each time you cover up his abuse, he just grows bolder. Do you really want to walk on egg shells for the rest of your life? What about your children? Sure, he may be "nice" to them NOW, but what happens when he turns on them?

The BEST thing you can do for your marriage, your children, and yourself is to leave this man and draw a line in the sand. Leaving doesn't necessarily mean divorce. Saying you have no where to go just doesn't fly because there are women's shelters everywhere. They will help you. Stepping away from the situation will allow you to look at your life more clearly. Sometimes being "in it" prevents you from seeing just how scary and WRONG this is. You may think you're doing the right thing by "standing by your husband" but what you're really doing is setting up a terrible childhood for your children and making choices that could be deadly.

Please listen to ML! Please email the radio show and speak directly to Dr. Harley.

You don't have to live this way unless you want to.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 11:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Or I wanted my hair cut cause it was getting ratty and in my eyes and he said no he didn't want me to. I snuck out and did anyway and he just laughed when he saw me and said if anyone says it looks good they are just being polite to you. Or there's silly things like he was making noodles I wanted corn with my noodles we didn't have any so I said id go to the store to get corn. He forbid me and said dont you dare get corn. This made no sense to me so with him shouting in a rage to get back in the house i ran to the car and got corn, cost only a dollar so dont know why it made him mad


Hm. None of the above justifies abuse, but I did want to point out that you have an Independent Behavior problem, which bothers a great number of spouses. As well as a disrespectful judgment problem, like when you justified getting corn because his not wanting it didn't make sense to you.

I'd email the radio show mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. I'm thinking that you might do well to do a short Plan A, where you knock off those LBs and meet his needs, followed a Plan B where you make it a condition of his return that he participate in MB and an anger management program.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 12:10 PM
cwmi you give MB a bad name when you say that. Refusing to give into Selfish Demands (SDs) isn't the love buster (LB) of Independent Behavior (IB). Think about it, this isn't a man with a corn allergy or severe poverty to where it harms him if she gets a haircut. He just says no to intimidate her.

Quote:
Verbal is more frequent like I mentioned this week addressing me as Woman instead of my name. I went on a 14km walk that day to have a break from him but wished for a longer one. He didn't want to apologise for that because he said he hadn't done anything wrong. Or I wanted my hair cut cause it was getting ratty and in my eyes and he said no he didn't want me to. I snuck out and did anyway and he just laughed when he saw me and said if anyone says it looks good they are just being polite to you. Or there's silly things like he was making noodles I wanted corn with my noodles we didn't have any so I said id go to the store to get corn. He forbid me and said dont you dare get corn. This made no sense to me so with him shouting in a rage to get back in the house i ran to the car and got corn, cost only a dollar so dont know why it made him mad got home and he said i was not allowed dinner with the rest of them I'd have to make myself a sandwich or something since id disobeyed him about the corn.


You say he wouldn't understand why you left, but all this here, he would know exactly why. He isn't an idiot, he is doing all this stuff on purpose. The point of leaving with the kids is so that he would know that you're not willing to tolerate this anymore. I wouldn't push you, because if you leave before you're ready, you may just drag your kids back into that. But please speckled the next time one of these humiliating things happens think for a minute about what you're teaching your kids that we need to put up with. Take a look at their faces. No one should have to live with that.

How old are your kids? How much does alcohol and drugs play into this?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 12:49 PM
Ned, you're supposed to negotiate these things, not sneak out or run away and do them anyway. If you want to get technical about it, the selfish demand is that she get her hair cut and buy corn and he just needs to put up with it. Asking your spouse not to do something is not a SD. I'm not trying to imply that he actually asked.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 01:20 PM
cwmi step one in negotiation is to make the environment safe. She said he was in a shouting rage. So until the environment is safe for negotiation, all she can do is check her intent and trust her own judgment. Independent behavior is an attempt to gain at your spouse's expense. It's clear that these two choices were not made at her spouse's expense. From the Selfish Demand article, "Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain." He did that by denying her the ability to eat dinner with their kids.

Speckled, have you read Dr. H's Q&As on Domestic Violence? Your marriage as it is isn't sustainable, but you can learn how to give your marriage the best chance at becoming a healthy, thriving, one. A one-year separation is suggested because it gives your H a motivation to change that he doesn't have today. It's so important not to go back too soon, before the lasting change happens. Getting the police involved also gives your H a motivation to change that he doesn't have today. Even if they don't arrest him, it will send a clear message that you know this isn't okay.
Posted By: americajin Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 02:01 PM
I second what princessmeggy said, not only will he get bolder, but the frequency and severity of the abuse will escalate. Blaming you for an accident he had? Squeezing your hand because he was in a bad mood?

You need to contact social services and come up with a plan where you have a place to go if you have to leave in a hurry. I would also try to save money in amounts that won't raise suspicion and either leave it with a family member you can trust or a friend - NOT A MEMBER OF YOUR CHURCH. You need to have an escape plan that no one will compromise.

Your husband isn't going to apologize, he isn't going to miraculously change, and he isn't going to STOP. Stop making excuses for him, and stop thinking because you all go to church that you are somehow different. Your husband is a Christian wife beater and you are a Christian soon to be battered wife.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 02:07 PM
What she did with the corn was clearly independent behavior and was disrespectful. But I view that as a distraction. That is the peeling paint in the girl's bathroom on the sinking Titanic. What is relevant is that SHE IS NOT SAFE.

When there is physical abuse, the solution is to separate. Period. A little jail time will help this man realize the error of his ways.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 02:47 PM
Quote:
Its hard cause as a christian till death do us part is always pounded in your brain.
I believe that statement means not to part as husband and wife - I don't think it was ever meant to imply that you physically must remain together. Especially if you're being physically abused.
Quote:
I mentioned the few physical abuse incidents to my sisters and instantly felt guilty and ashamed like I should keep things like that to myself and that God would send me to hell or something for speaking bad of my husband. So I haven't told other family then them because I'd feel like an awful person.
This concerns me. These are the words of an enabler. Why would you feel like an awful person for reaching out for help??
Quote:
And sometimes when hes mad he'll drive recklessly even if he knows im terrified in the passenger seat.
This is also abuse, Speckled. Your H is a very mean, cold person who enjoys frightening and humiliating you. You understand that, right?
Quote:
I think if he physically tries to hurt me again I'd have to take the kids and go to a hotel or something to try to teach him a lesson.
It has nothing to do with teaching him a lesson! It has everything to do with protecting yourself and your children!

Your entire post seems to be justifying why you plan to stay with a wife beater. Do you want help to get out of this situation, or do you just need to vent to someone?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 02:52 PM
Quote:
The last physical incident wasn't as bad as others.
Speckled, STOP. Read this sentence again! Do you see just how bad this looks?? "Well, things must be getting better: he didn't beat me as bad this time as he did last time."
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:25 PM
Speckled I am a Christian. I have also been emotionally abusive toward my wife during our marriage and have been working through this program to eliminate this sin. James 1:20 teaches us that man's anger does not bring about the righteousness of God.

I believe that the next time and every time your husband becomes physically abusive toward you, you should call the police. This is Dr. Harley's perspective as well, and the perspective of the anger management therapist I have seen.

And it is my perspective as a Christian that someone who becomes physically violent within the church has placed themselves so far outside of the church's authority and influence that they must be given up to secular authorities. There is much in the New Testament about the church holding themselves accountable, even to the point of judging matters amongst ourselves before going to secular courts. But there is also material about putting a person outside of the church and "hand such a man {a person who has rejected the church's authority and continues to sin horribly} over to Satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." {That's 1 Corinthians 5}

Please expose your husband's violence to your church. They need to hold him accountable. If your church does not protect and assist you, I urge you to leave that church and find another Bible-based church that will. Ephesians 5:11 says "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." You might also benefit from looking through Matthew 18. I have heard Dr. Harley talk a little bit about how a church needs to encourage the exposure of marital sins such as abuse and violence, in accordance with this teaching from the Bible.

I'd also suggest you give Dr. Harley a call. You can email his wife Joyce at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and they would be glad to talk to you on their radio program and also offer some assistance. Dr. Harley talks about anger on his radio program very frequently.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Its hard cause as christians your always supposed to just pray through everything


Oh, Speckled, are you reading the Bible? Does your church encourage reading the Bible? Mercy me, no, we are not supposed to "just pray." We are supposed to pray and ACT. Listen to the Lord:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

That is from the book of James in the New Testament.

See how disappointed God would be at the man who merely prays about a problem and does not do anything to help?

Quote:
and these kind of topics are sort of hush hush in the church.


That is worrisome.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I just think on the rating of abuse scale I'm on the lower end of physical abuse (one occurance a year) and only one incident left a bruise though the others were painful and have caused redness and welts.

Stop trying to convince us that his abuse is not all that bad.

ONE bruise is enough. JUST ONE. And you've had more than that.

I'm a Christian, too. I also believe in "till death do us part." But, that doesn't mean sticking around while your husband beats you to death. You can leave without divorcing him. You can protect yourself and your children.

He will not stop until you no longer tolerate the way he treats you.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:45 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
What she did with the corn was clearly independent behavior and was disrespectful. But I view that as a distraction. That is the peeling paint in the girl's bathroom on the sinking Titanic. What is relevant is that SHE IS NOT SAFE.

When there is physical abuse, the solution is to separate. Period. A little jail time will help this man realize the error of his ways.


Thank you! I lived this kind of nightmare for over 20 years. And to have somone focus on the 'peeling paint' when I was drowning felt like they were tying concrete blocks to my feet!

Besides the obvious physical danger she is in, there is the issue of her mental health if she continues living with this man. She already feels as if no one understands and everyone thinks it is her fault.

Speckled you might be surprised how your family really feels, but you must speak to them first. And tell them everything! My now XH had me keep a horrible secret from my family for 7 years because he convinced me they would think I was a terrible person. The reality of the secret is that I was almost raped and my then husband blamed me for it. I let him make me feel as if I should be ashamed of almost being raped! When I finally got the courage to file for divorce he again begin threatening to tell my parents about the assault against me---I had had enough though. I began to tell anyone and everyone about the incident and I was stunned to discover that NO ONE thought it was my fault at all and they were FURIOUS at him for blaming it on me. It was then that I realized how much he had damaged me.

It will take a lot of courage to get yourself out of this situation. I have been out for 2 1/2 years and my life is now amazing. You might can save your marriage (that will largely be up to your husband) but you MUST save yourself so that you can be a mother to your children.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
In my family even a temp seperation would be a huge no no.


Is telling the truth a no no in your family and church as well? God does not want us to lie and bear false witness in order to protect evil deeds. Shine the light on the darkness, please.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Quote:
and these kind of topics are sort of hush hush in the church.


That is worrisome.


Yes it is.

I know in my church, all I would need to do is call our elders and tell them that Markos left a bruise, and several of them would probably show up with guns.

I wonder if they really feel that it's as "hush hush" as you say. You really downplay the abuse. I wonder if you just assume they will, too, when in reality they would rally around you. Have you tried talking to anybody and asking for help? How many people?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:53 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
Please expose your husband's violence to your church. They need to hold him accountable. If your church does not protect and assist you, I urge you to leave that church and find another Bible-based church that will. Ephesians 5:11 says "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." You might also benefit from looking through Matthew 18. I have heard Dr. Harley talk a little bit about how a church needs to encourage the exposure of marital sins such as abuse and violence, in accordance with this teaching from the Bible.



Good advice. However, I would further add that even if the church doesn't support her she STILL doesn't have to stay and take that abuse. They are humans beings and it is possible that her husband will lie about this and talk his way out of it and make her look foolish. I had life long CLOSE friends who were taken in by my XH. Eventually, they realized their mistake, but in the meantime I had to go against their counsel and save myself and my son.

Originally Posted By: markos
I'd also suggest you give Dr. Harley a call. You can email his wife Joyce at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and they would be glad to talk to you on their radio program and also offer some assistance. Dr. Harley talks about anger on his radio program very frequently.


Yes, I hope she will call.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 03:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I'm afraid God would punish me.


Do you believe God's punishment and discipline of your husband could result in better character on his part and a better life for all of you?

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. {Hebrews 12:11}

If you do believe this, then you don't want to protect your husband from the consequences of his actions. If you prevent those consequences from reaching him, you are stopping God's discipline, which is for his good, and yours, and your children's.

"The authorities are God's servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God's servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong." {Romans 13:4}
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 04:10 PM
You've mentioned 2 kids. What are their genders and ages?

I pray you are not raising daughters in this environment.
How dare you model this behavior for them.
Do you really want to teach your children that this is "normal" behavior?
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 07:53 PM
I have no daughters but I don't want to give out any other info on my children online. I'm in a difficult situation where my husband is a resident of where I live not a citizen. One report from the police or anything and hed be kicked out permanently and so he could never return even if he changed. My husband does not drink and does not do drugs. We have a zero alcohol rule in this house and would never even think of taking drugs. In regards to the corn and hair saying it was exibiting independent behavior the thing was in the corn incident he said i couldn't have corn, i tried to say you know ill just have corn with my meal you dont have to have any if you dont want. He was just furious and shouting and scary and just said NO! I went out and got some because I thought well if i then listen okay I wont have corn then he'll think okay if I just yell at my wife and tell her what to do i can get what i want. The reason we had no corn in the house was cause last time we were at the store he said buy it anohter day. I mean it seems wierd to be forbidden from vegetables so I didn't see how it would be better to listen to him in that case. THe hair I had discussed it with him for a week. I said if you like my hair now I wont do anything drastic I'll just get a trim to get rid of the dead ends and the hair out of my eyes (ive tried cutting it myself in the past and it turned out scary) and he isn't saying no for financial reasons. So it came to the point he was unwilling to compromise to even a trim so I thought am I to just never cut my hair again even though its all ratty? I had no choice but to go out and get it cut without him knowing. He gets his haircut all the time and even drives all the way to another city to get his favorite hairstylist. I just go to a cheap one in town. Again I thought wouldn't it just teach him he can control me in every way if I listened? I mean I believe couples need to discuss things together and come to agreements of course but its kind of hard if there is no room for negotiating its just a stern No never! I wasn't asking if I could buy a BMW or something. So I don't know I just feel if I always listen every time he says NO! Id never be able to do anything. I couldn't slowly have a secret savings over time either because every day I go out he immediately goes online and checks the bank account to see what ive spent and where and then questions me about it. And no im not a crazy shopper or anything. I buy bare necessities the family needs, but hell forbid me to shop at certain grocery stores and get angry if I bought detergent from an unapproved store or something. So cant sneak a cent past him. And it is not cause we have financial issues we almost have our house paid off and money in savings, no debt, cars paid off. I guess I was just hoping there would be advice on how to fix the problem without a seperation which currently Im not really comfortable with considering my son is going through aba therapy 4 days a week and they come to my house and im under contract and he needs this therapy it is helping him improve so much. So if i left hed lose the therapy and this is life changing therapy for him. And again for all the above reasons I gave as well. Its really hard if you haven't personally been in the situation cause it is definetly easier said then done. I guess hoping for some in home quick fix is not possible.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 08:24 PM
Quote:
I guess hoping for some in home quick fix is not possible.


I agree this was your hope. And it is completely unrealistic. This is not something that can swept under the rug and fixed easily. And your husband does need to go to jail - or get exported - if he commits domestic violence. We do have laws in this country, after all.

Quote:
Its really hard if you haven't personally been in the situation cause it is definetly easier said then done.


I have personally been in that situation. ONE TIME. And he still doesn't grow hair where I slammed the baseball bat on the crown of his head. I would encourage you to keep an enforcer around so you can defend yourself if needed.

But I do know that you need to grow up and start acting like an adult. You have a responsibility to protect yourself and your children. There is no excuse to sit there and do nothing. You are not a child who is at the mercy of a grown up. Yet you act like one.

I think its insane to wait around until he beats you up again; I would tell him to move out for a year while he goes through intensive anger management therapy. That would be a pro-active, intelligent way of handling it. And if he gets himself under control in that year, let him come back at the end of the year.

And PLEASE, call up your families and your pastor today and let them know. You need their support.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 08:28 PM
I'm not trying to brush any of you off either. I see what you are saying and I definetly dont want my boys learning that is proper treatment of a woman. You've all got good points and I've been thinking a lot. I just wish there was something in home I could try first before attemptinga seperation.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 08:45 PM
I've also written Marriage builders and hope they respond. I'd be interested in knowing if their thoughts are the same about seperation.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I just wish there was something in home I could try


But you are not the one with the anger problem. He is! He needs to be in anger management, and if he is ever violent toward you again, he needs to be reported to the police each and every time.

As for you, I believe you've been given a number of things you should try, including exposing his abuse.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I have no daughters but I don't want to give out any other info on my children online. I'm in a difficult situation where my husband is a resident of where I live not a citizen. One report from the police or anything and hed be kicked out permanently and so he could never return even if he changed.


That would be a pretty incredible way for God to discipline him, wouldn't it?

As a Christian, can you trust that God will decide what consequences he needs to face and whether or not he needs to face this one?

Or are you going to try to protect your husband from the discipline of the Lord by hiding what he is doing?

Read Matthew 18 again. If your brother sins against you, it does not say to ignore it, sweep it under the rug, forgive it without repentance. It says to confront your brother and then bring up various forces of accountability, starting with the church, and moving on towards him living outside of the church and subject to the serious consequences out there (such as the government, appointed by God to weird the sword to punish evildoers).
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:23 PM
Speckled, if you want to try to do something, why don't you investigate some time reading what Dr. Harley has to say about anger in marriages?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

On this second page, look down the left hand side, and there is lots of reading material for you. 2 articles on angry outbursts, 3 articles on domestic violence, SIX articles on abusive marriages. Please go read these and start getting informed about what your options are.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I've also written Marriage builders and hope they respond. I'd be interested in knowing if their thoughts are the same about seperation.


You already know that, though. I showed you a quote frm Dr Harley's article. That was not our own personal opinion, but Dr Harley's opinion.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:48 PM
Quote:
Its really hard if you haven't personally been in the situation cause it is definetly easier said then done.

I've been there, too. Once, in a fit of rage, my husband left a bruise on my arm, and one on my hip. He now knows that if he ever lays a hand on me again, I'm calling the cops and he's out.

Thankfully, Markos saw how damaging his anger was.

The only way through this is for your husband to learn to control himself. He has no reason to do that right now, because you just take it.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I went out and got some because I thought well if i then listen okay I wont have corn then he'll think okay if I just yell at my wife and tell her what to do i can get what i want. The reason we had no corn in the house was cause last time we were at the store he said buy it anohter day. I mean it seems wierd to be forbidden from vegetables so I didn't see how it would be better to listen to him in that case. THe hair I had discussed it with him for a week. I said if you like my hair now I wont do anything drastic I'll just get a trim to get rid of the dead ends and the hair out of my eyes (ive tried cutting it myself in the past and it turned out scary) and he isn't saying no for financial reasons. So it came to the point he was unwilling to compromise to even a trim so I thought am I to just never cut my hair again even though its all ratty? I had no choice but to go out and get it cut without him knowing.


I find it interesting that you handled all of this without your "just pray through it" idea, but when it comes to your husband being angry and violent and abusive, you hide behind "just pray through it." I hope I'm not coming across as harsh, but all of this taken as a whole sounds like you just do what you think is best and sometimes justify it with ideas from your faith. frown

Quote:
Again I thought wouldn't it just teach him he can control me in every way if I listened?


Please really do read through all of those articles from Dr. Harley on anger and control. They should give you a lot to think about.

Quote:
I mean I believe couples need to discuss things together and come to agreements of course but its kind of hard if there is no room for negotiating its just a stern No never!


Dr. Harley has some great material on negotiation, but the first step is for the two of you to make the situation safe by eliminating demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. So you can't negotiate anything at this point.

Quote:
I guess I was just hoping there would be advice on how to fix the problem without a seperation


You might could try this:
Tell your husband "I am not going to tolerate your angry outbursts any more. If you don't get into an effective anger management program, I am not going to live with you any more." Hold the phone ready to call 911 if there is any violence. If he enters anger management, you might not have to have a separation. Maybe. Please check with Dr. Harley first to see what he thinks. If he refuses, you really have no good alternatives. Decide now to call the police any time your husband becomes violent, for the rest of your life. I promise that a ride to jail will be some excellent therapy for him!

Quote:
which currently Im not really comfortable with considering my son is going through aba therapy 4 days a week and they come to my house and im under contract and he needs this therapy it is helping him improve so much. So if i left hed lose the therapy and this is life changing therapy for him.


I have no idea why you'd lose the therapy. Separated fathers still have to provide for their children, and can be made to do so by a court of law. This just sounds like an excuse not to pursue a course of action you don't want to take. First it was your faith that prevents you, then it was your family, now it is your son's therapy. The reason you can't nail down a single reason is because you just don't want to do this and are looking for rationalizations not to do it.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 09:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Its really hard if you haven't personally been in the situation cause it is definetly easier said then done.


Did you read my post? I HAVE been in your situation. (All except being married to a non citizen.) My XInlaws had a lot of money and XH would threaten me that he would bury me with legal troubles that his mom would pay for and I would lose everything. My XH made a lot of money and I was a SAHM at his 'mercy'....he treated me the same way about buying things that he didn't want me to have. And with a reasonable man POJA would work, but with a violent, abusive UNreasonable one it will never work. As you have figured out, your choices are to a)do it his way on all matters thus killing yourself as you become a doormat or b)going against him at times and thus incurring his rage and all the consequences that implies.


Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I have no daughters but I don't want to give out any other info on my children online. I'm in a difficult situation where my husband is a resident of where I live not a citizen. One report from the police or anything and hed be kicked out permanently and so he could never return even if he changed.



This means you hold all the cards Speckled. He clearly doesn't think you will EVER use those cards to protect yourself or your children, but nonetheless you hold the cards.

Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
And it is not cause we have financial issues we almost have our house paid off and money in savings, no debt, cars paid off.


Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I guess I was just hoping there would be advice on how to fix the problem without a seperation which currently Im not really comfortable with considering my son is going through aba therapy 4 days a week and they come to my house and im under contract and he needs this therapy it is helping him improve so much. So if i left hed lose the therapy and this is life changing therapy for him.


Why would you lose the therapy if you left? And why do you assume you would have to leave? If you file for a legal seperation you can request the judge give you residency of the home and make your husband move out.

At the very least begin to keep records of his abusive treatment of you. This will be for YOUR benefit, so that you can see the reality of what a 'little bit' of abuse really means.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 10:01 PM
I'm sorry you find yourself in this predicament. right now, you are so weak when it comes to standing up for true Christian treatment that you might lose a battle of fighting your way out of a wet paper bag - you're that weak!

Please understand - I don't say this to be unkind. You have to recognize that you are being abused TO DEATH because you don't find your inner strength or your right to be treated with dignity, respect and love.

Part of that is because you rationalize. Do you know how scary it is for a shelter worker to hear that phrase that you said, "he only hit me once" or "he only bruised me once" but the content of your interactions "Woman get that pan" or other orders where he dehumanizes you - it's all part of the domestic violence pattern and you have no idea how dangerous your rationalization is to you and your sons!

I stopped counting how many rationalizations you've made, just in the last few days, on this board. Could it be that your mom is asking questions out of concern for her daughter's safety rather than her compliance with a warped and twisted version of "christianity?" (I can't even capitalize the word because what you claim as the rules of your faith is so far from how Jesus would have you be treated as a woman, as a wife, as a mother, as a daughter of God, it must not be named after Him!)

Marriage Builders will not work for you. I guarantee you it will only get you closer to getting killed. Harley himself says it will not work in cases of addiction or abuse.

I would recommend you go to the newsletter section and read the three part series called "When to Call it Quits".

Then find yourself a true Christian support group and find your way to a shelter, with your children. Do not leave them in his hands. He will hurt them to get you to comply. That's his next move. I've seen this too many times to the point where I wish I hadn't read your thread.

You need to rewire your heart, mind and faith immediately if you are going to survive and raise your sons to be something different than the brute man you call husband and their father!
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/09/11 10:03 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
I have no idea why you'd lose the therapy. Separated fathers still have to provide for their children, and can be made to do so by a court of law. This just sounds like an excuse not to pursue a course of action you don't want to take. First it was your faith that prevents you, then it was your family, now it is your son's therapy. The reason you can't nail down a single reason is because you just don't want to do this and are looking for rationalizations not to do it.


I suspect this is true and I have been there done that. Although all of those are valid reasons and part of why you stay, the real reason is that you are terrified. It is a terrifying thing to stand up and say, 'I'm not going to take this anymore' to a bully who happens to be your husband and father to your children.

It is terrifying and it is not easy at first. That is why you need your family and your church if they will help. You won't know if you don't tell them what is going on.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/10/11 12:42 AM
Quote:
I stopped counting how many rationalizations you've made, just in the last few days, on this board.
Same with me, Kayla.

I am concerned for this poster for her own safety, but even more concerned for her children. They are living in a toxic soup, where they are observing the humiliation of their mother at the hands of their father. If only for that the poster needs to make an immediate change. She appears to not want to do the heavy lifting that will be required to save her marriage and her family. frown
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/10/11 01:01 AM
So true.

Speckled - I am so sorry that you will have to do the heavy lifting and the leaving here to stop. He. Will. Not. Change. You cannot hang your life on that hope. He has no kindness in his heart when he turns abusive. And You. Have. No. Control. Over. When. That. Happens.

Look into your children's faces the next time he has an outburst. Consider that they in time will become perpetrators and treat their wives and children this same way.

Unless. You. Get. Tough. And. STOP. IT.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/10/11 04:11 AM
I thank you for all your comments. I've certainly been in endless thought all day long. I mean it can't be that hard not to have a little understanding why I just don't jump up and say okay I'll seperate right now after reading some comments. I mean I've been raised a certain way my whole life. I've been married 6 years dating 3 have 2 kids and he generally is a nice guy most of the time. So of course I love him the kids adore him. The reason I keep giving different reasons is every time I think about even a temporary seperation I have a pros and cons list. My family always makes big decisions with pros and cons lists. So yes there are pros but also lots of cons. And I thought of another one that my husbands insurance pays for surgeries and treatments for a genetic condition I have that has horrible consequences if I stop treatments. On my own I could never afford the thousands of dollars it costs. Again I have no money my husbands family has lots I'd be terrified that he'd get the kids. My kids are number one to me I could not handle having them taken. And I'm always told what a sweet gentle wonderful guy he is so I think no one would believe me. I have no evidence other then my word. So of course I'm not jumping up and down immediately like okay i'm leaving. And I adore my children and if he ever went near one of them in a threatening way I'd be out the door with them in a second at the police station. Right now they are too young to know what mean or degrading words he uses at me mean thats why I want to stop this now. I read through lots of the articles on abuse and anger etc as recommended. There was lots of good advice. And lots of talk on avoiding conflict. When I'm upset or angry I generally go on a walk or put myself in another room of the house so that I wont say something I regret so maybe I should tell him if he gets angry to go out and cool down. Its all so overwhelming I want to do something or I wouldn't have come on here but of course I'm scared to just walk out on everything I've ever known. I'm wondering if I should write him a letter. I say a letter because if i tried to tell him face to face he wouldn't let me finish and he frequently just falls asleep or turns on the tv when I try to have a conversation with him. In the past when I've said I wished we would talk he said just bla I'll listen while not turning from the tv for a second. So I have to communicate important things in letters because he'll read those. I wonder if I should just write out all the main issues and abuses incidents and at the end say that enough is enough if you ever do it again then I'm talking the kids and leaving. That at least gives him a chance to change. Oh and in regards to going to the church we moved a few years ago and have been bouncing around various churches trying them out but haven't settled in one so we dont have a home church that I could approach. So don't think I'm ignoring all your advice I am thinking about it and see wisdom in your words and I know I can't just continue to sit and do nothing.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/10/11 04:33 AM
After spending awhile on this site though reading articles you really start to think are humans crazy? Why do we get married when it seems life is an endless battle afterwards struggling to maintain a healthy relationship. Mine started falling apart like a month after the I Dos when my husband started losing interest in sex, communication and romance. I was away for a week and he kept telling me he had a wonderful surprise when I returned (not long after marriage) so wanting to surprise him as well I got him a bunch of his favorite treats to give to him when I got home. When I got back he gave me a half drunk bottle of pop and said SURPRISE but then enjoyed all the treats I'd brought him. Before marriage hed write long love poems, take me on surprise romantic dates etc. After marriage on my anniversary I got a card with just his name signed, it was prewritten by hallmark but had very sweet words. And I'm like aw thats so thoughtful. Then he said oh really? What does it say I never read it. I wonder why marriage is like this switch that okay thats it all romance is over. To me it just seemed after we got married it felt like he was like okay no longer the forbidden, the chase is over, married now so dont have to work anymore. Its so hard cause looking back its like if I could see the future I'd never be married. And I cringe and feel sad when I hear wedding announcements of friends thinking its a prison dont do it! Of course I'm not perfect I know he could make a list of things about me that bother him. Well two wonderful things came out of marriage, my children! But for single people out there I say better to be alone then to be married and wish you were alone.
Posted By: sunshine5 Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/10/11 05:05 AM
Speckledlady (((hugs)))

From one abused lady to another, I will pray hard for you tonight. I am sitting here just wishing I knew what to say to make it better, but nothing will make it better until you can get stronger. I do understand though.

I Know that what everyone is saying feels like they are asking you to move mountains and you don't know how.

I know that telling you to face a monster who has hurt you in deep ways while still being wounded (which you are whether or not you can see it now or not) seems impossible but it isn't.

I know that all these things you say about how wonderful and nice he is just what you HAVE to tell yourself everyday in order to not go crazy, but that in Proverbs it talks about anger being like a heavy boulder on you. Even when he is nice, you never know when that next word, angry outburst or neglect or hit is going to come so it still sits on you my dear ALL day long. NO wonder you feel so burdened!

This is not what God wants you to do. The only reason no one knows is that your husband has asked you to become someone who will hold secrets. Terrible secrets. That is NEVER God's will and I know you know it. Just like I did.
so
1. If he ever physically or verbally makes you afraid, call the police.
I know that you are afraid that they will believe him but they won't.
This same fear- I was afraid of my H killing me after I called them-it haunted me for a long time but when I finally did call, I learned that they HAVE to believe you in order to save you. Trust me.... one mark, one bruise or even no bruises (you can even say he slapped you but you were afraid for your life with no physical evidence and they will believe you) YOU hold the cards.

I don't know about writing a letter. I know your not at the point of feeling like you can leave or kick him out so he would laugh at the letter because he is like a child. I don't know if you could hold up the consequence needed for change.
He keeps robbing the bank(abuse to you) and never goes to jail. In fact the more he robs the bank, the bolder he gets as he starts thinking that maybe the bank likes to be robbed. Except what he is doing is worse.

1. Call your family and tell them the truth without glossing over anything. TELL them you are terribly AFRAID of him. That he has hit you numerous times, he Purposely drives crazy to make you AND THE CHILDREN scared, punishes you in ways you can't understand and you need their help and prayers. You can do this. See what they say, but remember... the truth. Do not water it down.
2.Call a women's shelter, if you need help with that, we can even get you numbers JUST for information gathering.Find out all the ways they can help you and the kids.

And sweet lady, your story sound so much like mine it is scary! BE HONEST with yourself. He already has hurt your precious children. You said it yourself that he drives crazy (they are in the car too) He won't "allow" you to eat with them? What would you call that? It punished your boys as well. I have a feeling there are numerous things he does and doesn't do that are actually harming your boys. I am sorry but abuse doesn't start by just hitting or hurting like that.

*Just to share.. my ex once drove crazy to "punish" me for walking to slowly to the car from the store. I told myself the same thing (if he hurt my child I would be gone) Then he went nuts and we were in a car accident. It is a miracle that my baby boy survived. Is this how you want your sons to end up? What if they aren't so lucky?
That day I realized that I HAD be subjecting my son to all kinds of abuse. Now that he is older and has shared stories about what his dad did I did not know about makes me sick what I allowed him to go through*

Just do those 2 things first. Call domestic shelter first to find out options. Then call your family (don't worry about his). Baby steps. You CAN do those two things.

Sending love and protective hugs to you and your family.
Posted By: hurtingturkey Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/10/11 05:26 PM
Speckledlady,
I am so very sorry for what you have had to live with. You have no reason to listen to me. I was the marriage partner who could not control the angry outbursts. I never even swore but I was a Marine and I could turn the volume up like few others. For 22+ months now I have been in a combination of weekly or more frequent therapy for myself, and daily work with a group of men dedicated to eliminating verbal abuse and controling behavior from their actions. I had a wonderful and gentle wife who was not equipped to handle my behavior even if it was but once every three months when I would have a childish "tantrum."
I cannot imagine adding physical violence to that equation yet you have lived it. My wife lived with me and I was not a husband... I was a child. If my needs were not satisfied I yelled to get my way. And what is worse is that I lied to myself that there was nothing wrong with behaving like that. It was reading Dr. Harley's comments about angry outbursts that began my awakening. I deserve no praise for having worked hard to change myself. We don't pat guys on the back for stopping the robbing of banks. What I did is not forgiveable. I now know that my wife should have left the very first time I raised my voice. What the verbal abuser and controler does not understand is that they get the exact opposite of what they want when they verbally abuse. In my case all I had to do was raise my voice in anger. I didn't have to call my wife names and in fact I did not. All I had to do was frighten her with a shouted voice while arguing.
No one can love when they are an abuser. You are not being loved.
The simple facts are this.... Verbal Abusers often excalate to physical abusers and physical abusers with each instance, become capable of greater abuse the next time around. Do not take a chance with your children. Separate and do not return until there is ENORMOUS evidence that your husband has committed his living differently. You have no chance of his changing until he freely admits his abuse to your and his family.
Please listen. Even if you have no physical marks on you, what he is doing to your mind is worse. You do not deserve that.

Read my tag line and you will see where verbal abuse and controlling behavior got me...

Blessings
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 12:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Its hard cause as a christian till death do us part is always pounded in your brain. I do care for him and don't want to leave him. Hes generally a good guy and great with the kids. I mentioned the few physical abuse incidents to my sisters and instantly felt guilty and ashamed like I should keep things like that to myself and that God would send me to hell or something for speaking bad of my husband. So I haven't told other family then them because I'd feel like an awful person. I've mentioned verbal abuse to other family members but their advice was to just tell him to apologise and stop to which he laughed at me and said no now go away you annoy me. I know I'm not perfect I've called him mean names at times when angry but I always feel guilty and apologise to him. Its hard cause his verbal abuse he never apolgises for. And sometimes when hes mad he'll drive recklessly even if he knows im terrified in the passenger seat. Also he has a rich family I don't have money so if there ever was a seperation hed just get custody of the kids and go which there is no way id ever have my kids taken from me! I'd have nowhere to go cause my family wouldn't support seperation. I've never called the cops before he'd just deny it and get furious at me. And he has a very sweet gentle nature in public so everyone automatically assumes it must be me. I think if he physically tries to hurt me again I'd have to take the kids and go to a hotel or something to try to teach him a lesson. Or hed just yell at me when i got home for wasting money on a hotel. So confused.


Speckle,

Marriage is a covenant you and you husband have made before God. That is Christian marriage. your husband is a covenant breaker. I say this as one who is in active pastoral ministry in a Christian church. Abuse is never ok. Never. You need to take him to the elders of your church. It's only hush hush because no one ever says anything. Scripture commands us to bring sins into the light and not cover them.

There are women's shelters in most areas that help abused and battered women and children.

CV
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 02:28 AM
Thanks for sharing your story with me. I know it was hard. Its always hard to admit to ones faults. Thanks for your advice. I know everyone here probably thinks I'm crazy but I really feel there would have to be another incident before I could confront him about it or consider seperating because since the last verbal abuse he has been very nice to me all week so its hard to be upset with him and if I just suddenly brought it up now after hes been nice it wouldn't make much sense to him I would think. Or sometimes I think maybe I'm just overreacting, is it really verbal abuse or is it just whta happens in regular marriages? Or I think maybe he didn't mean to hit me so hard, doesn't realise his own strength. Writing that out I think it sounds kind of dumb to believe that but it seems I just keep trying to convince myself its not that bad. I want to do something though I know I can't just sit forever like there is nothing going on. A family member suggested maybe going to a counsellor or something. From your point of view as having once abused do you think going to a counsellor together has a chance of improving the situation? I love my husband so I want this to work out.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 02:40 AM
celticvoyager I had mentioned before that I dont have a home church right now. We moved awhile back and we've been trying out various churches but have none wed call a home church right now. I am thinking of writing one of the churches that I preferred though and see if they have a christian counsellor or someone that could sit and talk to my husband and I together.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 03:20 AM
Originally Posted By: markos
Speckled, if you want to try to do something, why don't you investigate some time reading what Dr. Harley has to say about anger in marriages?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

On this second page, look down the left hand side, and there is lots of reading material for you. 2 articles on angry outbursts, 3 articles on domestic violence, SIX articles on abusive marriages. Please go read these and start getting informed about what your options are.


Did you read these?
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 04:47 AM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
celticvoyager I had mentioned before that I dont have a home church right now. We moved awhile back and we've been trying out various churches but have none wed call a home church right now. I am thinking of writing one of the churches that I preferred though and see if they have a christian counsellor or someone that could sit and talk to my husband and I together.


If you can afford it, Dr. Harley's Behavioral counseling does work wonders from what I've heard from the majority of people I've talked with that have done it.

Make sure that the pastor can give you a few references for counselors.

cv
Posted By: LoveIsaChoice4Me Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 12:29 PM
SL ~

I've read all of the posts in your thread...
I was reluctant to post anything...
However, God placed on my heart to encourage you to read about a lovely "Believing Woman" whose name is Abigail...
She was married to a "Fool"...
His name was Nabal...
You can read her story in 1. Samuel.
Here is the link:
http://preachersfiles.com/abigail-a-woman-of-integrity/
God has a way of accomplishing His will in the life of His children when they are willing to trust Him...
I see your plight as one who is not trusting God...
Your faith is weak...
However, like Abigail, it is not too late to take a stand against evil.
God IS Who He says He is...
God CAN do what He says He can do...
You ARE who God says you are...
You CAN do all things in Christ...
It is time for you to allow God's word to be alive and active in YOU...
It is time for you to BELIEVE GOD!
Prayers coming your way, girlfriend!
pray
Posted By: LoveIsaChoice4Me Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 12:47 PM
Here are some posts from sweet ladies who needed to read Abigail's story:
Jo says:
March 21, 2009 at 5:28 pm

I have recently been praying to God about what to do about a situation almost like this one. Durring my daily bible reading I was lead to read about Abigail, Laban and Nabal. This is almost a mirror image situation of what i am going through. I found myself in the middle of and argument between my husband, and this other person. I beleive the holy spirit led me to read about abigail. It is amazing how the method of how she dealt with the situation is relevant to me even though it took place many thousand years ago. I now know what to do and I bless the lord who is faithfull to answer when we ask. In time of need i called and he has answered. Instead of confusion everything is clear.
Thank you for this bible study may the Good Lord bless you.

Another:

Ruth says:
October 25, 2009 at 2:36 am

In the situation I am in, someone referred to me as an Abigail as well recently, which through curiosity about this story brought me to this site. I left my foolish husband a year ago which was the hardest thing Iíve ever done. This story is an encouragement for me to continue to go to bat for him as he is now trying to get his life back together. I am reminded to walk in forgiveness while still holding to the boundaries for myself.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 04:38 PM
Speckled, your words are those of a co-dependent person. You are sympathizing with your attacker!

Quote:
I really feel there would have to be another incident before I could confront him about it
You're waiting for another attack?? WHY??

Quote:
since the last verbal abuse he has been very nice to me all week
This is typical of an abuser.
Quote:
if I just suddenly brought it up now after hes been nice it wouldn't make much sense to him
"I will no longer accept your abuse of me." What's hard about that? Does he have a learning disability?
Quote:
maybe he didn't mean to hit me so hard
HUH? So, it's okay to hit you if he doesn't leave any marks?? crazy
Quote:
I just keep trying to convince myself its not that bad.
It's encouraging to read that you can see this in yourself. But convincing yourself that it's 'not that bad' is the act of an enabler. It IS that bad! It IS, Speckled!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/11/11 10:57 PM
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Speckled, your words are those of a co-dependent person. You are sympathizing with your attacker!

Quote:
I really feel there would have to be another incident before I could confront him about it
You're waiting for another attack?? WHY??

Quote:
since the last verbal abuse he has been very nice to me all week
This is typical of an abuser.
Quote:
if I just suddenly brought it up now after hes been nice it wouldn't make much sense to him
"I will no longer accept your abuse of me." What's hard about that? Does he have a learning disability?
Quote:
maybe he didn't mean to hit me so hard
HUH? So, it's okay to hit you if he doesn't leave any marks?? crazy
Quote:
I just keep trying to convince myself its not that bad.
It's encouraging to read that you can see this in yourself. But convincing yourself that it's 'not that bad' is the act of an enabler. It IS that bad! It IS, Speckled!


Just want to add to MB's post (which is really good)...

A normal marriage is one where the husband is tender to his wife. He cares for her to such a degree he would never belittle or berate her. A good husband would never think of laying his hand on any woman, especially his own wife. A normal marriage is where the husbands touch is one of love and tenderness, not hate (which is what he demonstrates when he hits, pulls hair and kicks).

A good marriage communicates in loving, even tones, not angrily or mockingly.

Real love is where the husband lays his life down for his wife and is not focusing all the blame on her, making her lay her life down unnecessarily. Real love is patient, it does not get easily exasperated, it is kind (on words as well as deed). It is gentle, it is longsuffering. it does not push the blame onto others.

CV
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 02:28 AM
Markos I did spend quite awhile reading through those thankyou.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 02:35 AM
I've read the story of Abigail before, she was definetly a strong brave woman. Though to me ending up married to someone with numerous other wives didn't seem that great of an ending though I suppose at the time that was normal.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 02:45 AM
So i wrote a six page letter I guess basically going against all you have said. I guess I am weak so I have to try this first. It outlines all the main cases of abuse and clearly states I will not stand for it any longer and if he ever tries to abuse me again I will notify the cops and kick him out of the house and then said we need to see a christian counsellor. Now I'm just trying to find the right timing to give it to him. He's in a really good mood right now so I think (knowing my husband) he would take it the wrong way and instantly get defensive like what are you talking about I've been so nice to you and not take the time to think about what was said. You all may think this is crazy but I do know how he reacts to certain things. But I can't give it to him angry or he will just rip it up and think I'm a stupid woman. So i got to give it to him when hes in just a soso mood I suppose. Then I just need to see how he reacts if he takes it serious, if he doesn't, if he laughs it off or gets defensive or what. I think the main issue that might affect him wanting to change is he truly believes he does no wrong he says it with conviction that most days he thinks he is blameless. Regret and guilt that most people get when they've done some kind of wrong is what normally makes them want to change. So how can you change if you feel no guilt? So I'm hoping this might awaken some kind of self awareness in him if hes been in denial this whole time. So yes I suppose I'm weak and it probably annoys most of you that I am going to give him a letter instead of leave right off but I have to give it a try.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 03:00 AM
Speckled, you seem determined to do this your own way, regardless of what we tell you. From the beginning you have explained why our suggestions won't work, why you shouldn't proceed under our suggestions, why it will be oh-so-difficult to listen to us - strangers who have nothing to gain either way. Our advice has only been to help you.


So: GO FOR IT. Do whatever you want to do. It appears to have been failing you and you have come to a marriage building website for help, only to ignore that help.

Do whatever you think you need to do. Good luck.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 01:15 PM
Speckled, you are in a dangerous situation, and tipping him off when you would plan to leave makes it that much more so. Have you read this article? It talks about why women don't want to separate from abusive men, and a course of action. Please consider contacting your local battered women's shelter *before* giving your H such a letter. They are very respectful, understand your situation, and won't push you or judge you, because they've been in your shoes and know why it's so hard.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html
Posted By: Soolee Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 03:13 PM
Speckled...

I would advise that you scope out the options in the area that you live, and find out from those shelters what is and is not normal behavior. Sometimes when a victim has been living with an abuser long enough, it starts to feel normal. The problem is that the abuser will eventually start to up the ante. So, banking on the possibility that the abuse won't get any worse, is risky - not just to you but to your boys too.

Educate yourself. Get out the phone book and learn where these places are. Write them down. Keep a file. Keep it in a safe place. Write down the names of a few lawyers too. Just so that you have a few telephone numbers.

You obviously haven't been shattered by this. You have the courage and knowledge to come here. That was smart. You know your marriage isn't quite right, or you wouldn't be seeking advise on this topic. I understand why you would not fully trust perfect strangers - especially when it has only been 5 days and after all you've been through. I can tell you it is all well intended and appropriate advice, but that won't mean anything, since you don't know me either.

Um, yours would not be the first family that I know of where religion has been manipulated and used as a tool to power over a wife. I know of two such dynamics in my social circle alone. Both involved infidelity. Yeah...sad, but both husbands made like they were holier than though, and all along were getting a little on the side while abusing their wives. Is there any chance of this happening in your marriage? Is your husband open and honest with you about where the money is going, why he might be late, etc.? Sometimes a spouse will begin or ramp up abuse when they are involved in infidelity. They will rewrite history and try to fabricate reasons for their wayward behavior/entitlement. (Just something to think on.)

There is nothing intrinsically wrong or disloyal with gathering information. That is very wise. Understandably you're concerned about your marriage. That may require examining it carefully and ironing out the wrinkles. It has to start somewhere. And...let's face facts. Your husband has been abusive. So...whenever we attempt anything that could increase the possibility of us being harmed (your choice to stay for now, as an example), we take out insurance, right? So, building your education about abuse and having a plan A and a plan B are your insurance. Here are a couple of ways for you to begin your education of abuse and the resources available to victims.

*Get out the phone book and write down the names and locations and telephone numbers of the women's shelters in your area.

*Then write down the names and numbers of two or three noted family lawyers in your area.

*Write down questions you might like to ask the people at the shelter.

*If you haven't given your husband the letter yet, hold off on it, as New Everyday suggests.

*Today, start getting into the habit of backing your car into the driveway. Sounds silly, but if by any chance you ever have to leave in a hurry, this will make it easier. Start this habit this week.

In the meantime, I would like to ask three more important questions:

*Do you have a cell phone that is yours only and that he's aware of?
*Do you regularly have spending money?
*How does he feel about you talking and visiting with your family and friends?
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
After spending awhile on this site though reading articles you really start to think are humans crazy? Why do we get married when it seems life is an endless battle afterwards struggling to maintain a healthy relationship.


It is not an endless battle in a good marriage. But of course you can't have a good marriage to someone who is abusing you.

Are you here to help learn how to endure an endless battle? Or here to learn how to end the abuse?
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I've also written Marriage builders and hope they respond. I'd be interested in knowing if their thoughts are the same about seperation.


Please let us know if you hear back from them today. Please check your spam folder and make sure their response doesn't get lost. If you don't hear anything, please click "notify" and ask the moderators to get in touch with Dr. Harley for you.
Posted By: hurtingturkey Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 04:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Thanks for sharing your story with me. From your point of view as having once abused do you think going to a counsellor together has a chance of improving the situation? I love my husband so I want this to work out.


Speckled... In the group of reforming verbal abusers that I have been a member of for 22 months a survey was performed. In 100% of the cases the verbal abuser's wife either: Left, Filed For Divorce, Initiated an Order of Protection, Refused to allow the husband to live in the marital bedroom, found another man or a combination of the above. My point is, it was not until the abused spouse took drastic action that the verbal abuser awakened even a little bit.
Simply put... if you do not do something very siginificant, then your spouse will never have to look in the mirror and "see" themselves and their behavior.

You must protect yourself. It isn't about whether your spouse is a good man or not. It is about you creating a safe environment and boundary for yourself. You must do this or you will end up hurting your husband far more.
Please do not become another statistic. Somewhere in the backwards wired mind of our husband is a good man. Maybe. But as long as he allows his emotions to make it alright for him to abuse you, verbally, physically or both... you are sabotaging your own marriage and possibly endangering your own life....

Please run and get the direction and counseling you need from a local women's shelter.
Please.
The answer to your question, is that without you doing sometinhg, to protect yourself... there is no chance for a "cure." But in reality... once verbal abuse has escallated to physical abuse of any kind... the chances of a "cure" are very, very small.
The day your husband is willing to tell his friends, co-workers and your family and his that he is an abuser... that is the first time yo have any chance at all.
I have seen too much.
Speckles, I know first hand from all the men I work with and you are in danger.

Blessings,
Hurtingturkey
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/12/11 04:22 PM
Speckledlady,

I am sorry that you are in this frightening place. I have also been part of a physical and emotionally abusive relationship.

There are things that you can do from within the home, but often they lead to escalation of the abuse. This is why it is important to separate.

I started my journey by realizing that I couldn't change him.

Once this was straight in my head, I worked out what I deserved and what my children deserved.

Work out what you and your children deserve. We all deserve love and care, respect and consideration.

Once you are clear on this, you start to enforce boundaries, if these basic essentials are violated.

I let my H know that I was going to protect what was mine, I let him know that I was going to remove myself if I felt threatened in any situation. I let him know that I would take further measures to protect myself and my children from the bad example we had been setting(it helps to take responsibility for your part, it helps if you recognise what you could have done differently (ie enforcing boundaries), this doesn't mean that you accept any responsibility for his abuse).

If my H raised his voice to me or started to back me into a corner, I would walk away - take the kids to the park or the shops.

When ever you are in a room with him, make sure the exit is clear.

Find out where the local shelter is, get in touch with them and let them know your situation (I found this incredibly empowering), my shelter didn't try to force to leave him, they didn't want to take anything any further just let me talk and let me know they were there and helped me make plans for if I did get up the courage or decide things wouldn't work.

After several months of my attempts at enforcing boundaries and working out that I was worth more, things got bad one night and I picked up the phone to call the police. He knew I was serious and stopped.

I asked him to move out and work on himself - he enrolled on a perpetrators of abuse program and read books about anger - he emailed me the evidence and we discussed his findings. We met out in parks etc, as a family at the weekend. He lived away from home for 2 months.

We are now living together again - have been for 18months - I never tread on eggshells anymore, I never worry about him coming home, I don't have to plead "shhh the children can hear".


If you are able to gain some self respect and respect for your children then this will be an incredibly rewarding journey, whether you stay married or not.

I just want you to know that it is possible to recover ( I could never find any tales with happy endings - obviously highlighting the risks), but I do not think recovery is possible without some type of separation.

NB: Anger Management does not work for abuse, and indeed those experienced with abusive situations will comment that it can make it worse.

**edit**
Posted By: luvinlife Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 03:19 AM
**edit**

Please notify the administrator if you wish to exchange emails.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Mblovebanker@gmail.com
Moderator

Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 04:21 AM
For those of you who asked this is Mr. Harley's response:
The wives of abusive men are often in the situation you find yourself in. The man does so many things of value to her, that she seems to have no choice but to put up with his abuse. To leave him, and the lifestyle he offers, would be more painful than to suffer occasional physical and emotional abuse. Iíve counseled scores of women in your situation. There are no winning alternatives for them.

But my position has always been that physical abuse, and sometimes emotional abuse, should be reported and not tolerated, regardless of the value of the relationship. There are many reasons. Physical abuse often leads to permanent disabilities (broken backs, brain damage, etc.), serious mental and physical problems caused by a lifetime of fear and stress, and death. Furthermore, the more the perpetrator learns that he has control, the more violent he becomes. By reporting him, he is aware that he canít get away with it.

Your life may be difficult without him, but it is likely to become tragic with him. You have no idea what chances you are taking every day you put up with your husbandís temper. For the sake of you and your children, you should not accept it.

Iíve also found that when a violent man is confronted with the fact that he will lose his wife and children if he doesnít learn to control his temper (and infidelity), he will often change. Iíve witnessed many wives who after deciding to risk a divorce by reporting her husband, found that the resulting separation turned his life around and he became a safe husband and father.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 04:31 AM
Soolee to answer some of your questions there is no infidelity going on. I'm 99.9% certain of thise obviously no one could be 100% positive. He shows little interest in women, always comes home right after his work shift and leaves right before. There have been no unexplained absences. He doesn't go in chat rooms or talk on msn so he couldn't be having a relationship there he reads the news a lot and watches lots of movies on his computer ( no porn ). So I dont have any concerns about that. I do not have a cellphone of my own, he doesn't either just a home phone. He does not care if I go to my family or friends house. I do however not have easy access to money. I mean we have a joint account and I could go out and spend money but if he knows I've been out he will check our bank account and find out how much I spent and where and will question me if he doesn't like all the numbers even though some of the income is mine. This is not due to a spending issue on my part I dont spend much and even though we are doing well financially because of the tight purse strings family members have given me money for things like clothing and shoes when I basically was living in one outfit with shoes filled with holes. Meanwhhile our house is almost paid off and its a nice house, we have no debts, our two cars are paid off and we have savings. I'm still in my 20s too so I think that isn't bad. So no sneaking an emergency fund out. He'd notice even little withdrawals. I've mentioned the controlling money issues to all my family but they had no suggestions. I guess thats all part of the bigger issue. I think that answers all of your questions.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 04:42 AM
Thanks for sharing your story staytogether its nice to hear how people coped in simliar situations. I find it hard to constantly be called weak but I see where everyone is coming from. Before I was abused I used to watch shows on abuse and think these women must be crazy why don't they just leave? But these things are always easier to see from an outsiders point of view who doesn't have to make the hard decisions themselves. If I had no kids it would definetly be easier to up and leave, I'd have little problem doing it. This may seem like backwards thinking but as mentioned in other posts there are many benefits for my children being financially stable opposed to being in a shelter or barely scraping by unable to support my sons special needs. However I know I can not continue to tolerate a bad influence on them so my husband must stop. They are too young to know whats going on now so it must end now. And what Dr. Harley said is very true how you tell yourself the occasional physical and verbal abuse cant be worse then leaving your support etc. Just today I had my second surgery in two weeks for my genetic condition covered by his insurance, I don't even want to think what will happen to me if my treatments have to stop. So that and a million other things make me feel trapped so again easy for some to say I'm weak etc but I think it would be hard for anyone to give up everything just like that. And of course I didn't come on here just to ask for advice and then ignore it all I was surprised how everyone said to seperate, I had come on here thinking id get a variety of advice. Though thanks to everyone who has suggested things like finding out about local shelters etc. So its all hard to take in but please everyone dont think everything you say is going in one ear and out the other.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 04:53 AM
I do have a question for other women/men who've been abused did it affect your overall health? I have always suffered from depression but it is getting worse and worse to the point I'm getting severe chest pain, eye tics etc. which my doctors say is due to very high levels of stress. I've started passing out randomly and recently collapsed in a parking lot and had a seizure requiring me to be rushed to the hospital in an ambulance. This has happened more then once with hospital stays and heart monitors. (And of course when I was on the stretcher with paramedics saying I could have one phonecall to a fmaily member I called my husband who said tell the doctors to release you and come home! No concern I had just been rushed to the hospital in an ambulance with heart problems. He refused to call my mom or sister to let them know I was in the hospital.) The increasing frequency of these problems concerns me and I'm wondering if physical symptoms can be caused from a troubling marriage. I mean there are other stressors in my life like coming to terms with my sons diagnosis and being told my second son might have the same condition and my own disorder so maybe its a coincidence. Just wondering if anyone elses marriage has caused them to become physically ill.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 05:00 AM
Oh and in regards to the letter its too late not to send it I emailed it to him. He was in a good mood when he got home from work so I told him he had a really important message to read. So hes like okay sure. Opened his email saw the letter was 6 pages and said "freaking you expect me to waste my night reading this!?" and closed his email without reading it. So I guess you can all say I told you so. My sister says oh just give it time hes just tired from work hell maybe read it later but I feel if he had taken the time to write me a letter he said was important to him I would be curious what was in it and take the time to read it out of respect for him. Just so very hard I was anxious and felt sick all day wondering how hed react to it and now he just brushed it off without reading it. Im at an unbelievably extremely depressed state of mind right now, my heart is beating like crazy making me see black dots and feel like walking out into the night and walking and walking and walking until I collapse.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 05:01 AM
Stress, whatever the reason can show up in many ways. Its your body's way of saying, " I can't cope with this, I will shut down until it gets sorted out". As you already have health issues, it only makes sense that they would be getting worse with the abuse and worry over the abuse.

It might help if you related what the health disorder you have is, but I can understand if you want to keep this private.
Posted By: sunshine5 Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 05:36 AM
Yes it made my already health problems worsen and made problems that I had never had before appear.
I also started having passing out spells, panic attacks, dizzyness and at one point my body just shut down digesting food. I almost died from the stress of being around him before the abuse ended it.

Fast forward to now. Extra Health problems are all gone. None of the things I was struggling with has come back and the health problem that I have is so mild now, it is super easy to deal with.

If you really feel like Im at an unbelievably extremely depressed state of mind right now, my heart is beating like crazy making me see black dots and feel like walking out into the night and walking and walking and walking until I collapse.

CALL the women's shelter. You don't have to go there! Just call them, talk to them... they understand sweet lady! At least you will have more info and talking to someone in real life can always help calm the nerves. Talk to someone who might have real answers. If your family can't come up with more than get counseling.
If you really feel bold, get your kids and Go there.

(PS on your disability... XH have been ordered to keep up insurance or extra money etc when they get divorced. It is already in the law books-don't use that as an excuse. This is why I think you should research some to quiet some of these fears you have)

One reason we say separate isn't to doom your marriage to Divorce but as one of the only ways you will ever possibly SAVE it and him.

Go back and read hurtingturkey post to you again as a past abusive man.
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 12:22 PM
I was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid about 15 months ago - had obviously been ill for many many months before.

Hashimoto's is a autoimmune condition thought to be triggered by a virus or stress.

Dizziness
No appetite
blurred vision
palpatations
fatigue
head fuzz
aches and pains etc etc
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 01:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
For those of you who asked this is Mr. Harley's response:
The wives of abusive men are often in the situation you find yourself in. The man does so many things of value to her, that she seems to have no choice but to put up with his abuse. To leave him, and the lifestyle he offers, would be more painful than to suffer occasional physical and emotional abuse. Iíve counseled scores of women in your situation. There are no winning alternatives for them.

But my position has always been that physical abuse, and sometimes emotional abuse, should be reported and not tolerated, regardless of the value of the relationship. There are many reasons. Physical abuse often leads to permanent disabilities (broken backs, brain damage, etc.), serious mental and physical problems caused by a lifetime of fear and stress, and death. Furthermore, the more the perpetrator learns that he has control, the more violent he becomes. By reporting him, he is aware that he canít get away with it.

Your life may be difficult without him, but it is likely to become tragic with him. You have no idea what chances you are taking every day you put up with your husbandís temper. For the sake of you and your children, you should not accept it.

Iíve also found that when a violent man is confronted with the fact that he will lose his wife and children if he doesnít learn to control his temper (and infidelity), he will often change. Iíve witnessed many wives who after deciding to risk a divorce by reporting her husband, found that the resulting separation turned his life around and he became a safe husband and father.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley


Wow, I didn't know Dr. Harley was going to send a personal response, but I'm glad he did.

I hope you heed Dr. Harley's excellent advice. I doubt any of us on this board could advise you better.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 04:30 PM
sunshine5 it is not that simple. It is not an excuse. My husband has told me in the past if we were ever to seperate he would go back to his home country (where there are no such laws) and disapear. He is from a powerful family there and I know this is true. He said I'd never see a cent of any sort of spousal support etc. I'm afraid he'd take the kids and disapear too! And hes right, with all the crimes in the world no one is going to try to track down a spouse not paying support in a country where its not even a law. So any support, insurance, etc. would be gone.
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/13/11 06:27 PM
Speckled:

Take a trip to your local women's shelter and have a talk with them. They are experts in these situations. They will understand how you are feeling. They will know how to get financial and medical support. They know how your husband will, over time, escalate the violence. And how you will come to think this is normal. They will also know what steps to take. I am pretty sure that writing a letter and giving it to your husband is not the next step. Writing it all out as therapy is probably good. Your husband has some kind of personality disorder/mental illness. Would you write a letter to a sociopath and tell him to stop being a sociopath? It won't work.

Why not go to the experts and get advice?

It is great that you are realizing that you are in an unacceptable situation. If you don't feel that you can go to your family or church (although I would try that first) then go to the shelter so people who don't know either of you can give you advice.

If you truly cannot work and are disabled, then the US government has Medicare/Medicaid to help in this situation.

Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 12:03 AM
Speckled,

It's not so easy to take a child out of a country anymore, especially if you are in the US. Do your children have passports? You can no longer get a US passport or renew an existing passport without both parents signing for it, one parent signing but with notarized power of attorney from the parent or a court order. If your childrne do not have passports, yet, you or an attorney acting on your behalf can put the Department of State on notice (in writing) that both parents must appear in person, with valid id before a passport is issued.

If your children already have passports, take somewhere outside the house for safekeeping. DO NOT give them to an attorney for safekeeping. They are an officer of the court and must turn it over to a judge if ordered to do so. When I was concerned that my XH would take my son back to his home country, I gave my son's passport to a trusted friend and told NO ONE where it was or who I gave it to. When my attorney told me to give it to him for safekeeping, I told him no because I knew he was an officer of the court and would be required to turn it over, whereas if he didn't know where it was or who had it, he couldn't turn it over. I also told him I would go to jail before I gave my XH or a judge my son's passport.



If yoou
Posted By: Soolee Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 01:07 AM
Speckled...I don't know if you are in the United States or not, but Clinton passed the Deadbeat Parents Punishment Act, which in worst case scenarios could be helpful to you. It is apparently an amendment to the Child Support Recovery Act of 1992 which I believe makes it a federal offense to cross state lines or flee the country to evade CS payments that have accumulated to over $5,000 or when the payments have ceased for more than 1 year.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 01:46 AM
Soolee (great to see you by the way!),

I don't think this law can be enforced if someone is not a citizen of the U.S. and flees to their home country. The U.S. can't even get American people to repay student loans if they leave the country. If he takes the kids that's another matter.

However, it may be that this guy is like most bullies and is all brag and little else. I had a previous abusive partner that claimed: he'd kill himself, kill me, kill my family, etc in order to stop me leaving. When I left he made a few loud noises, and then nothing. Or as CWMI says *crickets*.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 03:18 AM
I do not live in the states. If I were to seperate I'd have to go into it with the knowledge I most likely would never see a cent of support. Oh well I'm faced with an enormous decision and obviously I don't always have the best judgement or I'd have avoided this mess in the first place. Afraid I'll make another dumb decision, but my health is deteriorating fast so guess I got to make one fast. Thanks for all your advice everyone.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 03:48 AM
Speckled, hon, that's something else the battered women's support will support you in - learning to trust your judgment. Unfortunately many, many women get into abusive relationships. It's like the frog in the boiling water, he doesn't realize he's cooking because it started so gradually. But you are practicing trusting your judgment, every day, like giving your H that letter, and it didn't blow up.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 04:12 AM
lol the letter didn't blow up cause he never read it. Couldn't be bothered to take the time even though it was very important to me. Last night he said he wasnt going to waste his night reading it. Today I asked him a few more times to read it. He said he got to page two and that was enough it would take him a year to finish the whole thing. Cause yeah 6 pages would take a year to read. Right. Obviously didn't care about anything in the first 2 pages he did read. And I would have told him face to face to avoid a letter altogether but as said before he just falls asleep when I talk to him or turns on the tv. At this point I know in a seperation he wouldn't care at all about me, he says when he travels he misses me for a week and after that not so much. Only reason I think he'd put any effort in would be cause he loves the kids I'm beginning to think he views me more as a nanny then a wife. I'm finally starting to realise though I love him I don't think he really loves me. How can he possibly love me when day after day its more hurt and when he can get over me in one week.
Posted By: sunshine5 Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 04:25 AM
Just know you are not alone.
My ex said same types of things. It is all about control. He says hurtful things because he knows it is how he keeps you under his control.

My ex said same things, from I don't care if you leave, I will go to another country, no one will ever believe you... to I will kill myself to eventually, I will kill you.

Yep... never did one of those things once I walked out the door. When he actually KNEW that I was serious and meant it.

Love should not hurt. Love is kind, gentle , caring and thoughtful. Read I Cor 13.

You don't know how he will respond honestly to a separation. All of the things he says now is just to keep you under his thumb. What he says is what EVERY abusive husband on earth seems to tell their wives about what he would do if you DARE leave them. (sometimes I wonder if they read the same how to abuse your wife manual) crazy
You never know until you try. He might just turn around and amaze you at what great lengths he will take to win you and the kids back. Or he might not. One thing is for sure, I don't believe a word he says.

So instead of trying to make all these huge decisions all at once could you at least call an abuse center and talk to them?
That would at least be step number 1 done.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 01:04 PM
Thanks Happy2CU. Same here. I get what you're saying. They say even in The States, it is not always easy to enforce - involves a lot of cooperation with police, etc.

Speckled...

I think it's common with people who are naturally very trusting, to leave a lot of the details up to the dominant personality in the relationship. However, it can set the weaker (for lack of a better word) personality up to be blindsided either in cases of divorce or death. Now is the time for you to buy a notebook and start writing things down.

Even if you never ever use the information, it is all stuff that you should know and have access to anyway. You are simply compiling information that you have a right to know anyway. Keep it locked up in a safe place, of course. A lot of it will be sensitive information that no one else should see.

Educate yourself and compile information, basically. This is not the time to hem and haw and hope that things will shift and change by osmosis. Certainly, you can research how to try to improve on the marriage, but your personal safety and that of your children is primary, and there is nothing wrong with simultaneously educating yourself.

Focus on what you have some control over, and one of those things is your knowledge base on the topic of where your life has the danger of going and what to do about it. You really have no choice. You've got kids, and being a parent changes everything. EVERYTHING.

No more 6-page letters. I don't know too many men who would want to read a 6-page letter, to be honest. Take it back. Get a highlighter out. Highlight either the stuff that isn't necessary or just the stuff that is. Make sure you aren't saying the same thing over and over but with different words. Rewrite it. Try to whittle it down to 1 or 2 pages or even paragraphs.

I love you. I want us to be happy, but I have a lot of concerns about our relationship, and I would like us to try and work hard on our marriage to make it better. I want to grow old with you. I want us to raise the boys together. How would you feel about sitting down to talk about this Friday night after supper?

Then you get someone lined up to watch your boys on Friday and you write out a short itinerary for your upcoming discussion. Areas of concern. Areas of repeated contention - be it parenting methods, finances, or whatever.

And you begin those discussions not with "You always or You should" but with "I feel...or I don't feel or I'm worried that...."

And Speckled...as a mother in this day and age, you really, really do need at least a trac phone. No bills. Just buy minutes as you go. Think about driving your kids around and breaking down. Think about being out shopping, and the teacher or baby sitter has no way of reaching you. It's a basic need in this day and age.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 01:24 PM
.
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 01:29 PM
Great Advice Sooly

Taking these steps gave me such confidence and self belief. I urge you to do it SpeckledLady
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 07:44 PM
Big trouble here. I finally got my husband to finish the letter. He acted like he had just read a recipe for dip or something very unimportant and finally I'm like well what di you think. He wouldn't say anything about it at first but I asked again alter and hes like reread your letter you'll see you aren't innocent. I'm like what are you talking about? He's like you know what I'm talking about. I'm like do you mean because I hid your pillow as a joke and you kicked me or I woke you up and you hit me in the face etc.? He's like exactly, every case was provoked by you there fore it is YOUR fault. I said there is never an excuse for physical abuse ever even if I was annoying. He said was it bearable? I said what? He's like the pain was it bearable in those cases? I said well I lived through them and I'm sure torture would be worse so you could say its bearable but it was still very painful. He shrugged and said if it was bearble then its fine. So I'm like so as long as I don't die its okay? He just laughed. I said you know I'm thinking I may need to take the kids and seperate from you cause you aren't getting the picture. He said great go for it, I could use a holiday. I said I'm not talking a day 6 months or longer depending on you and if your willing to change. He just laughed again and said ahhh an even longer holiday! He said you have nowhere to go. I said I'll find somewhere and you wont be albe to find me. He thought that was hilarious too. I said or maybe I'll call the police and have you remoeved from the house why whould we leave when its your problem. He laughed even harder and said oh yeah you have no proof! And then I said if you ever touch me again like that and I'm calling the cops. Then he put his hand on my knee and hes like oh no are you gonna call the cops on me now, mockingly. And later I was bringing the groceries in and put my hand on him for support and he shouted ABUSE! and started laughing again. I said you know full well that wasn't abuse stop making a mockery of a very serious matter. But he didn't care about any of it acted like it was the most hilarious joke he ever heard. The coldness of it has put him in a new light for me cause before I could tell myself he didn't understand he was hurting me maybe he didn't know his own strength but saying it was all my fault and it was fine since it was berable pain, that is chilling. Or threatening me with the fact I have no proof. I've looked up the shelter in the area and I've contacted the government to see if its possible to make sure no passports are given to my children without both parents in person with valid ID. I'm wwaiting to see their response. I'm also wondering if I were to take the kids and go one night could he call the police on me and say kidnapping? Or file us as missing persons? I wouldn't want that. How do you legally leave without getting in trouble? He is very intelligent and has a very powerful family in his own country. I'm not exagerating in china if you have lots of status you can get things done. His families speeding tickets disapear and their passports are done over everyone elses cause their friends with the mayor etc. its all about who you know there. It doesn't work there like it does in western countries so I'm afraid of him taking the kids and running and disapearing behind his families protection. Or freezing me out of the account since we have a joint account. Theres just so many possibilities. I'm so stressed here trying to do whats right and not doing something stupid.
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 07:56 PM
Speckledlady, you have been so strong,now you've looked up the shelter call them.

Please do it today. Now.

they will advise you on the best course of action, for the best outcome for you and your children.

Now he has read the letter and heard of his reaction I am very concerned for your safety. Please get out safely.

Likely no use to you (I'm in the UK) but I have left my email addy with the mods.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:21 PM
Once you are out of the family home with the children, issues might arise as to the custody of the children. Custody is the responsibility for day to day care of children. In normal circumstances both a mother and father have equal rights to the custody of their children. If you leave and take the children, there are two possible courses of action that your partner might take using criminal law or family law:

He might make a complaint to the police that you have abducted the children.

He might start a legal action for custody of the children

The law says that where there is no custody order in existence, it is a criminal offence for one parent to take children aged under fourteen from the other parent with the intention of depriving him of possession of the children. Whether the police would go ahead and charge a parent with abduction will depend very much on the individual circumstances of the situation, but the possibility does exist. Removing the children could also be an offence if it is against the terms of a custody agreement that already exists.

There is, however, a defence to any possible criminal charge. If you can show that you took the children away because the children or you were in immediate danger of being harmed or even that you honestly believed such a danger existed, then you may be able to resist criminal charges

It will be extremely important to have evidence to support your claim. If you are in an abusive situation, try to make some plans before you leave. Keep a record of when and how you or the children are abused. If you or the children are seeing counsellors because of the abuse, keep records of this also.

It will also be useful if there are any witnesses to the abuse. Even though you may think it is taking place in private, your friends and family may notice more than you think. Try talking to them to see if they can help
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:25 PM
Ive been reading up on this and I'm terrified. He has money I don't he could get lawyers like crazy I don't have a penny to my name. I have no proof. There are no bruises no evidence. I've told some family of the situation but they've never witnessed it they always say what a wonderful sweet gentle guy he is and how lucky I am. So even if they are changing their mind from what I said they themselves have witnessed nothing. There is no way I will take any action if there is the slightest chance he will take my children! I wouldn't even want him to have them alone for a day, my one son has a life threatening nut allergy and my husband can be careless not reading labels properly or forgetting his epi pen. I always double check my sons food before my husband gives it and remind my husband to take the epi pen. I can't leave if I don't know for sure I could keep my kids and hear has me terrified it looks like he still has a chance of getting them and he has the money to fight well against a he said she said! I mean it looks like i have to wait for him to hurt me seriously enough to get physical evidence. There is no hope for me.....
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:36 PM
Sorry my english is all messed up and hard to understand but I'm in a panic so my writing is terrible.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:44 PM
If the children have been taken abroad it may be difficult to seek their return depending on the country. Some countries have signed an international treaty and will recognize and enforce custody orders made by courts in other countries if the children have not become too settled or will not be returning to a harmful situation.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:46 PM
There is a good chance if he was annoyed enough hed do this just as he threatened with financial support and hide behind his powerful family. I don't trust China in regards to the legal system after seeing his families speeding tickets magically vanish. (This is not an insult to any chinese people at all! I'm jsut saying there are issues with how the government works.)
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:46 PM
I. am. trapped.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:55 PM
SL, most women's shelters have legal counsel so I would start there. Just go to one for a visit, tell them the situation and ask for their suggestions. You are not trapped. You need to explore your options.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
He has money I don't he could get lawyers like crazy I don't have a penny to my name.


You don't have access to bank accounts? What about credit cards? Do you have credit cards?
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 09:02 PM
Speckled lady, it will lift you to call the shelter.

You are genuinely fearful - they will know that.

My H threatened suicide, he threatened to quite his job, he threatened to move to the other side of the world, he said he would fight fo custody of the children and say that I was more physically violent than him.

He tried to paralyse me into silence.

Please find yourself some peace and call the shelter
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 09:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Sorry my english is all messed up and hard to understand but I'm in a panic so my writing is terrible.


Speckled, it is understandable that you are terrified. How can we help you keep your cool long enough to call for help? Please get help. You now have the testimony of many people that this is a good idea for you. Please get helped. Please do not choose to stay trapped.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/14/11 09:20 PM
Speckled, can I encourage you to contact Dr. Harley again? Since he sent you a personal response it is evident to me that he and his wife have taken a personal interest in helping you. I'm sure they would love to help guide you to someone local who can help you to work a plan that will give you hope.

Above all ... stay calm and start planning here. Explore your options, find out what is possible.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 03:56 AM
I have no credit card. All my child income from gov etc. goes into the tightly controlled joint account. I've written churches in the area with no response in days. I have no cell. I hoped the shelter had someway to email them but they have no email as I didn't want to phone and them have my home number, maybe have to use a payphone but again even then from all the legal research there is no 100% guarantee I could get the kids. Everywhere says I need proof for the best chance of which I have none. Seems I need to get proof which I will have to wait and get or try to secretly record him admitting to it. If it were just me I'd have packed up and left by now without looking back. Right now I feel I just have to wait until i can get proof if thats even possible. Unfortuneatly anything I say on here is again just what I say. Any good lawyer could argue its all nonsense. So who is a court going to support a woman with no proof with no house no income no money or a well educated man that everyone likes with a powerful family lots of money a house able to provide for any therapies my son needs. I wrote Dr. Harley again and am awaiting a response, but as of this moment I think my husband has succeeded in breaking my spirit at last. I've felt a death within me today hearing his words and the hopelessness of all this legal stuff I'm reading. Now I feel like a numb shell of a person. Oh well maybe one day I'll be bruised enough to get the evidence I need.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 01:17 PM
Going to go try and see if I can find a small recording device for sale. Then confront him about it again and see if he'll say anything incriminating while I'm taping him.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 01:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Going to go try and see if I can find a small recording device for sale. Then confront him about it again and see if he'll say anything incriminating while I'm taping him.


If you are in the US (I cannot remember) you can get one for around 50.00. Velcro it under the kitchen table where he sits or near him. make sure it is voice activated. Not sure what state you are in.

New Hampshire for example has this requirement:

In order to prove abuse in a domestic violence petition, the plaintiff must show that the defendant , who is a family or household member or a current or former sexual partner, committed one of the following acts:

Assault or reckless conduct as defined in RSA 631:1, RSA 631:2, RSA 631:2-a, or RSA 631:3.
Criminal threatening as defined in RSA 631:4.
Sexual assault as defined in RSA 632-A:2 through RSA 632-A:5.
Interference with freedom as defined in RSA 633:1 through RSA 633:3-a.
Destruction of property as defined in RSA 634:1 and RSA 634:2.
Unauthorized entry as defined in RSA 635:1 and RSA 635:2.
Harassment as defined in RSA 644:4.

Additionally, the act itself must consitute a credible threat to the safety of the plaintiff. The Plaintiff has the burden to prove the abuse by a preponderance of the evidence, a legal standard that means that it is more likely to be true than not true. Therefore, when testifying at a final hearing, it is important for the plaintiff to give a clear, detailed, accurate account of the actions of the abuser that led him or her to file for the restraining order.

What does this mean? In short it means that it doesn't need to be concrete, you just have to prove it is more likely than not.

have the police ever been involved? ever had a restraining order? any pictures of you with bruises or a family member or friend witness to any type of abuse?


these are all things that go to establishing your credibility in such a case.

CV
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
Going to go try and see if I can find a small recording device for sale. Then confront him about it again and see if he'll say anything incriminating while I'm taping him.
What do you plan to do with the tape if he does say something? Because so far I haven't seen any proaction from you, just reaction. You've explained why your hands are completely tied and you can't do anything. So what is your plan if you are able to record something incriminating? And what incriminating thing do you think that would be?
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 02:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
I hoped the shelter had someway to email them but they have no email as I didn't want to phone and them have my home number,


I don't understand. Why would you not want them to have your home number?

If this is an issue, is it not possible to block caller ID?

Quote:
Everywhere says I need proof for the best chance


You need professional help, not just internet advice. Don't try to go this alone.

Quote:
I wrote Dr. Harley again and am awaiting a response,


I am glad to hear this. I hope you will take the excellent advice you are being offered.
Posted By: markos Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 02:02 PM
You do not need proof of violence on his part to get a separation. Please go to a shelter and take your children and THEN find out what your options are. The children may have to go back, but at least you will have gotten more help than a mere Google search can provide you.

You do not need proof of anything at this point. Please go get help. You do not need proof of anything to go ask for help.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 02:09 PM
Quote:
Please go to a shelter and take your children and THEN find out what your options are.
markos is right - the fact that you are AT the shelter and asking to be taken in is all the proof they need.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 02:29 PM
I agree with markos. I think your best bet is to talk to someone who can help you in real life who works in this field and has all the resources for your area that you will need.
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/15/11 02:40 PM
I'm not saying you shouldn't take the advice of going to the shelter. I think you should.

But I know how paralysing the type of situation you are in can be. The fear of not knowing how anything will work out.

Writing to DrHarley, that was one positive thing you did. How did it make you feel to take charge and ask his opinion? Not only that, but you were rewarded with a reply.

I can understand you not wanting to leave to go to the shelter, I was concerned that I would have nothing - the children would have nothing - but actually they will.
Because of where I have been I regularly donate clothes and toys to our shelter. I know a former MB poster who volunteers at a shelter.

The feeling I get from the shelter close to me is one of great warmth.

In the last lot of stuff I took with me, I took a pirate hat. The support worker grinned and said "I know just who's head that will be on as soon as I walk through the door with it"

The people in the shelter will be able to lift some weight. You will be able to relax.....can you imagine some of the weight being lifted?

There are many people out there in real life waiting to make your life a bit easier.
Posted By: hurtingturkey Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/16/11 02:56 PM
Speckledlady...
Again I am so sorry you have lived with this. I am praying for you. Please follow all the excellent advice you are being given. And know that people here are praying for you and that we genuinely care for you. This is not a lynch mob here out to "get" your husband. This is a group of people who know you cannot live this way and that you will live a much better life than you realize if you take the steps in front of you. Please leave the environment you are in. Please.

Prayers and Blessings
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/16/11 03:25 PM
Quote:
I've written churches in the area with no response in days.


I translate this into "I have written people I don't know who don't have the resources to help me with this situation."

We are suggesting that you do get a consultation at a women's shelter because they DO have resources to help you in that situation. I am fairly sure you are not the first women who has been physically abused and whose husband limits her access to funds. I will be they have seen this before and will know how to get around it and what the best strategy is. You don't necessarily have to leave your home permenantly just because you talk to someone at a Women's Shelter. They will advise you on the best strategies to get you and your kids safe.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/16/11 08:37 PM
OK You do not really have a plan of action yet.

He read your letter and did not seem to care much.
Most of the time he is rather bearable but he has AO's and one a year he becomes violent.

Maybe I am going to make myself unpopular, but couldn't there be an alternative for shelter?

Your resources:
- you make money yourself
- child support
- you can open a bank acount for yourself (you do not have to put in money just yet)
- you may be able to talk to an attorney about options, the first consultation is sometimes free
- You can put money aside by occasionally buying things at the supermarket and returning them later. (e.g. diapers, washing powder) Maybe you can work something out at the gas station, so that they will charge you 10 dollars more each time you fill up the car. You could ask your family to give you money for your birthdayor other occasions. You can sell a few possessions via e-bay or through the local newspaper.

If you have all your resources ready for the worst case scenario, you will feel a little more confident.
When things get ugly, you will be able to transfer your salary and child support to your own account and have something modest to live on.

Then, you can confront your husband, in some form, maybe with the help of a professional and stand your ground. If you really have power over him because he is more or less illegal, that's for the better.
If he really loves the children that much, he will have to make changes.

God bless you and your family,

Happyheart
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/17/11 02:54 AM
For those of you who couldn't see what I could do with a tape or what I'd hope to get with one, I managed to secretly record a conversation where I confront him about various times of abuse and have him on it saying things like I deserved to get kicked for 15 minutes it was my fault for making him angry, that I should be happy cause I took karate before so he said hes teaching me to take pain etc. I think it would be foolish for anyone to just run out without any sort of plan. Yes one could just go to a shelter BUT if he contacts the authorities and charges me for kidnapping etc. and I have no proof against him you dont know how things can go. Otherwise any woman who wanted to leave her husband and get full custody would just go to a shelter if it guaranteed she got the kids. Yes its one point towards you but in a drawn out custody issue its really not that much. I've seen these cases end bad and I have a family member who did go to jail for abuse but that was because his girlfriend had proof, before she had proof the authorities took no ones side. So yes I'm working towards making the situation better for myself and my kids but it is tiring being called weak etc. Its always easier to tell someone else what to do but you have to put yourself in their shoes. Imagine packing up and leaving YOUR home to go live in a shelter with two kids. To go from your home from being financially stable with a roof over your head and food to eat to sharing a building with other families with no real privacy and nowhere to go. To lose all financial support for a degenerative disorder etc and hope you can find another source of funding but no guarantee. No guarantee your husband with a rich family wont find a legal way to get the kids and leave the country with them. So again dont be quick to judge. I am trying here.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/17/11 03:00 AM
How can we help you. I have seen so many choices being handed to you, and you immediately hand them back with reasons for why that just doesn't work for you.

How can we help you?
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/17/11 06:40 AM
SpeckledLady

I know how hard it is. I didn't take everyone's advice, I didn't move to a shelter.

I prepared in much the same way as you. I began to believe that it wasn't my fault. I would urge you just to speak to the people at the shelter, you don't have to give your name.

I went and sought legal advice, we have the Citizen's Advice Bureau here, and they can tell you and help you work out what money we might be entitled to - I'm sure there must be something similar where you are.

Because I know how hard it is to go then I would second Happyheart's post - much more reasonable to support you in helping yourself be independant. Rather that put you off seeking support.

At the end of the day - I knew it was my decision to stay and work out my plan - I would not have blamed strangers on a forum for not pushing me harder to move out, if the worst did happen. The whole process of making the best decisions for you will give you more self belief.

You are not weak - you are strong - you are working through your choices - you do not come across as weak.
Posted By: Speckledlady Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/18/11 04:26 AM
staytogether have you found your past with abuse has started making it difficult to trust any man? I find its starting to mess with my mind a bit. I go out by myself and many men are nice to me opening doors, helping me with groceries etc. but all I can think is you may be acting nice now but are you one of those 25% of men who abuse women behind closed doors? (If that statistic is correct who knows.) Its just creating a distrust of all men in general cause its not like the abusers have a big label on their chest or something. I mean I don't even trust male police officers just cause they wear the uniform doesn't mean they dont go home and abuse their wives too. I find it annoying though because it just makes me look at all men in a negative way. I don't want to be one of those women always going around thinking all men are pigs. I have a hard time feeling happy for any friends getting married, not out of jealousy or anything like that cause I want to scream DON'T DO IT! The moment the chains of marriage are on they are going to turn into monsters! But again most of them wont. I just dont like how negative its making me.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/18/11 11:42 AM
This is really sad that his abuse has brought you to this kind of thinking. No, not all men are abusers. There are some very good men out there who wouldn't dream of abusing their wives. Your husband is the exception.

How can you stay in such a potentially dangerous situation thereby exposing your children to possible violence against their mom, or even them? I understand about the fear of the unknown and how it can immobilize you. Did you know that those shelters will not only give you a safe place to stay but also have the resources to hook you up with an attorney who specializes in Family Violence? They can make your husband accountable. They can prevent him from leaving the country with your children.

One other thing you can do is to notify the state department or whomever handles passports and put a freeze on your children's passports where they would not be allowed to leave the country?

So if you won't leave what kinds of plans are you making to protect your children and you? Do you have an exit plan to get out in case of an emergency?

I'm afraid for you. Even if you stay and he gets violent again, what happens when someone else hears it or figures it out? You know these days people are way less tolerant of these kinds of things and will report it. If an official investigation were made, how would you convince the authorities that you were protecting your children from harm?

Please please get some help. Money isn't more important than your life or the well-being of your children.
Posted By: staytogether Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/18/11 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Speckledlady
staytogether have you found your past with abuse has started making it difficult to trust any man? I find its starting to mess with my mind a bit. I go out by myself and many men are nice to me opening doors, helping me with groceries etc. but all I can think is you may be acting nice now but are you one of those 25% of men who abuse women behind closed doors? (If that statistic is correct who knows.) Its just creating a distrust of all men in general cause its not like the abusers have a big label on their chest or something. I mean I don't even trust male police officers just cause they wear the uniform doesn't mean they dont go home and abuse their wives too. I find it annoying though because it just makes me look at all men in a negative way. I don't want to be one of those women always going around thinking all men are pigs. I have a hard time feeling happy for any friends getting married, not out of jealousy or anything like that cause I want to scream DON'T DO IT! The moment the chains of marriage are on they are going to turn into monsters! But again most of them wont. I just dont like how negative its making me.


I was dubious of all men. Now I'm pretty certain I can pick them out. I don't believe that there is a profession that is immune.

You will feel less negative if you are doing something to keep you and your family safe.

It doesn't matter about other men. You are able to survive by yourself.

Do you have all your legal documents to hand should you need them in a hurry?

Is there somewhere you could stash some clothes - train station locker? in case you want to go in a hurry?

Just having little back ups like this will help your peace of mind. Make you feel like you have a little bit of control (of yourself) back.

Start thinking in terms of the abuse being about control - the fear he creates is stopping you thinking/ doing / being you.

Make yourself a list of who you are and what you stand for, what you want for your life and your children's. Read it whenever you get chance.

Find out where you local shelter is and donate some stuff - they are always grateful of toothpaste and toothbrushes, new underwear etc.

(((speckledlady)))
Posted By: kristinw Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/19/11 05:34 AM
Verbal abuse is already bad and all the more with physical abuse.

I really stand firm to my principles including how women should be treated. Yes in the earlier times, men really hold the upper hand but tides shift and change.

I think that I have established a pretty good stand with it and should it be evident in the relationship, I surely am in the next ticket out.
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 09/19/11 07:02 PM
Remember there is a difference between going to the office of the womens shelter and asking for advice on a plan and just taking your kids and moving into the shelter. All we are recommending is that you TALK to them. You don't have to move in.
I bet if you look at your local shelter's website they will tell you what kind of services they have and a phone number you could call. Just talk to them so they can help you formulate a plan.
Posted By: AllenL Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 02/09/12 05:31 PM
I'm married if 14 years with my wife. When we married we were both Jehovah's witnesses. I have over last few years decided that I dont agree with some of theyre policies and demands as regard to required worship. My wife doesnt accept this and thus we are at a cross road. I don't mind if she wants to pursue this way of life with our kids butdo not want to be active as on of JWs anymore. This is a big deal as you might imagine escpecially if you know what is expected and taught in the church. Being that she feels I made this commitment when we married to fullfill this course of life with her she demands I maintain association and passion to "serve our god " togethr as JWs. As you can expect this is #1 out of top 5 emotional needs she has on her list for me meeting to cause her happieness. I am meeting the other 4 pretty well but not fullfilling # 1 is not good. Can you give me any suggestions to better deal with this major issue. I love my wife dearly and want to be with my family. It's just that not being able to fullfill her on this is causing her to feel thaT we may not have a future together. This is so sad being that the religion pretty much teachs and instills that if one partner changes there mind about being a JW its highly difficult to carry on a happy marriege. Please help me if you can. Thanks!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 02/09/12 05:33 PM
Jason, please start up a new thread with your topic so others can help you. No one can see you down here at the bottom of someone elses thread. Just click on "new topic" and paste this post into the body.
Posted By: AllenL Re: Verbal and Physical abuse. - 02/09/12 05:36 PM
Thanks!
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