The typical porn problem I see on forums here is a husband using porn and a wife understandably upset by that. I was in a conversation today with a woman who seems to be ok with porn, and I didn't know how to argue my case. She said before she married, her then-boyfriend admitted to using porn and she was ok with it as long as they did it together. In marriage, she says that she and her husband enjoy watching porn together. I told her I didn't think porn was a good idea, but I admitted I was thinking of the case where the husband does it in secret, hiding it from his wife. I still don't think it's a good idea for couples to watch it together, but I didn't know how to defend that belief.

She also said that she believes men in general have a higher sex drive than women and she's ok with her husband, as she put it, "taking care of himself," if, say, she's asleep. I gave her the MB advice that sexual needs should be met exclusively by each other's spouse. She says she's crazy in love with her husband, they have a very open and honest relationship, and she's very happy with her marriage. Is it ok for a husband to take care of himself? My general feeling is no, but again, I didn't know how to argue that point.

Later in the day, thinking about this, I think the answer to the self-satisfaction question is that it deprives your spouse of the opportunity to deposit love units in your love bank. I'm wondering about the case of unmatched sex drives. If a wife doesn't want to have sex as often as her husband and is ok with him masterbating, that doesn't sound ok, but I don't know why.

(In case you're wondering how I could be a conversation like the above with a married woman, please don't berate me for that. We started talking about marriage in general, and she brought up the subject. I tried to extricate myself from the conversation when she started sharing information that I thought was too personal. She probably would've gone on, but she sensed I was uncomfortable with the conversation.)

It is the contrast effect. It is rare the RL woman who can match the physique of a porn actress, and the danger is that the husband will find his wife less attractive in comparison, especially if she isn't up for it as often as he is, and he instead pleasures himself with images of women who appear to not only be always up for it, but also game for anything!

Same with masturbation. It can cause a man (or woman) to become accustomed to their own touch, and therefore make consensual sex less satisfying.

And yeah, from now on just say, "I am not comfortable talking about sex with you, Mrs. So-and-So. I think you should talk to your husband about that. Bye!"

Here also is Dr. Harley talking about why POJAing porn is still wrong.
Radio clip on POJAing porn

I don't think until you sell someone on MB that you'll change their view of porn. My wife and I love MBs. My wife doesn't have any issues with porn; we watch it together occassionally.

I've never really been much of an alone porn watcher. And I've never understood comparing my spouse to a woman I'd see in porn or in a movie or a TV show or anything like that. I don't understand guys that would rather watch porn than have sex with their spouse.

I am sure you and your wife mean well by watching porn togerher, but that does not mean that it is right, although modern media are trying to tell us that.

1.
Would you want your daughter to become a porn star?
If no, then how can you stand looking at young girls who have been put in the situation that they have to have sex with people they didn't know or even like in front of a bunch of other people holding a camera. Oh, it can happen to your daughter too if she finds the wrong boyfriend.
Or do you think these girls did not dream of becoming princesses when they were young? You are looking at the shattered dreams of real people, damaging themselves to the point they will never have normal (sex) lives again, when you thing you are watching a fantasy world of fantastic sex.
Please consider this while looking at someone elses poor daughter.

2.
The contrast effect is a psychological process. You cannot opt to do it or not to do it, just as you cannot opt not to feel at least the slightest bit of contentment when someone praises you. If you don't need images from other women then why do it?

3.
There are a host of reasons why many women don't object when their husband wants to watch porn together. They have been told in women's magazines that it spices up your sex life and that jalousy is for patheticly insecure women. They have been given the impression it is a glamourous and modern, joyfull thing to do. On the other hand there are girls who get to be fond of it, because it arouses them quickly. Others don't want their husbands to think they are prudish and want him to feel she is playfull and open for new things. But what women would want to complain if her husband told her he would much rather see her, than some poor plastic hooker on screen?

Please think about it.

wishing you a happy marriage,

Happyheart

Heere's what Dr. Harley says about the contrast effect.
What is Sexual Addiction

The contrast effect is a psychological process which produces a physiological result.

One base component of that contrast is novelty. Pornography provides and endless bevy of novel visual stimulation.

Dr. Harley has written and talked about men's sex drive decreasing and leveling out when they have a satisfying sex life with their wives. One of the reasons is acclimation. It's not just men and/or married men who experience lower sex drive over time with the same partner. It happens in most mammals. [sarcasm]Because psychologists are perverts, they have done several experiments over the years exploring this phenomenon[/sarcasm].

The effect of novelty (coupled with images of women who can spend a good amount of time working out, afford a personal trainer and diet manager, and spend a good portion of their time and money just on managing their looks) only adds to contrast effect.

It was actually briefly talked about in the chick flick How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days as the Old Cow/New Cow study.

And let's not even get into phallus measurements. And the uneven ratios of cunnilingus/felatio/penetration etc.

I could go on... but, let's be fair.


Ladies, put down the emotional porn. No more Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey. No more John Cusack movies.

Those things cause contrast effect, too.


If you need your needs met, get Radically Honest with your spouse instead of daydreaming about eternally 17 year old vampires and werewolves, or the wierd but affable "good guy." Get Radically Honest instead of looking for the next naked chick named after her first pet and the name of the street she grew up on, and some dude with an obscure phallic reference.

Put down the book. Turn off the TV/Computer, and go do something exciting with your spouse. Then have some victory sex in the car afterwards. It will be much more rewarding.

Well said HHH!

Ditto!!

Good post HHH! Thanks for starting this thread Keep Learning. Good timing for my sitch

Not that I'm pro-porn, I simply notice the contrast that folks are not displaying equal outrage/concern about stuff such as Fifty Shades of Grey.

I've seen a few here suggest that Romance Novels and the like are similar, but I don't see nearly as many threads suggesting women avoid the consumption of such novels due to the same pitfalls.

After all, the same contrast effect is there. Few husbands who have to work for a living can measure up to the suave millionaire who can devote 24/7 to his latest love interest, while maintaining perfect hair and not needing to work out to avoid gaining weight

Keeplearning, you should spend more time examining your own wayward ways before asking others about your inappropriate conversation with a married woman.

You aren't this married woman's psychologist.
You have NO business speaking with a married woman about sex.

EE, are you saying you feel outrage/concern about the Fifty Shades of Grey books? Because that's not how you come across, as someone who would be outraged about that. I haven't read the Grey books, but I did read Twilight, and I don't think the contrast effect is like you say with that. No one reads those books and then hopes that their man defends them in a huge battle against vampires, or that he would start sparkling. It's more like watching Mission: Impossible, you think wow that's cool, not oh I wish my H would jump from one train car to the next like that.

Thank you HDW. I appreciate your pithy, insightful comments. Have a great day!

I've heard plenty of negative things about 50 shades in the media. "Mommy porn" being one of them.

I haven't read it and don't plan to, not it or Twilight or romance novels, (I tend more toward horror and suspense anyway), so I can't really comment on it beyond that. I never wistfully think about how much better the men in novels seem than my husband, because they're either bad guys, or too busy chasing bad guys to woo women, lol.

Much television, and cable, has scenes that are close to porn anyway. Game of Thrones, for example, is really something.

here is a link to the porn convo on peps thread. It explains the contrast effect from mine and HHH's perspective.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2567688&page=9

Thanks for the link MrNiceGuy, that was very helpful!

Porn is a scary thing. For some interesting insite to how i affects the mind take a look at the mini course that Candeo offers. It will blow your mind.

As a man that struggled with a porn addiction for most of my life. It has no place in a marriage. The damage the user does to the marriage is very hard to overcome. Even after over 2 years of sobriety the work to rebuild trust is a daily effort.

There is so much more to porn then what most people realize.

My stbx still does not understand what a deal breaker his use of porn was in the marriage. Looking back over 28 years, I realize now that it was probably responsible for my feeling like a single parent. He rarely wanted to do anything with me and our sons on the weekends - but he always wanted to know what time we would be back. (so he wouldn't get caught). He actually thought he was being "discreet" by not using it while I was there. However, if I had company (even my 91 year old mother!), he considered me "gone" and retreated to his office. I didn't put all of this together until a year ago when I came across his recent computer history and cross referenced it with my journal entries. I never really understood why he seemed irritated when I returned from a day/weekend away with my family - or why he didn't want to join us. He was gone all week with his job, yet time with me on the weekend was not a priority at all for him. So clear now! Towards the end of our marriage, I was getting divorce consults about once a year and this would scare my H into saying he "could give it up" (not a true promise that he "would"), while also implying that it was "no big deal." He wasn't addicted! He could go "days" without it!!!

It's very hard for some men to think of porn use as a form of infidelity - but for me it was salt in the wound of the (3 year) affair he had halfway through the marriage. He kept saying the affair was "years ago." Why wasn't I over it?

I forgave - but I didn't, couldn't forget. He holds this against me. Yet I knew that remembering would be key to my recovery (maintaining my sense of self esteem - if/when we divorced.) I looked at his infidelity as 'frosting on the cake' of chronic abuse in many other forms throughout the entire marriage. He cannot fully own this behavior and considers my response to it to be abuse as well.

Addictions are deal breakers in a marriage because they steal so much time from the relationship and represent independent behaviors of the worst sort.

I started this thread asking how to defend against the use of porn in marriage, even when used together by a couple. In the posts on the thread that MrNiceGuy referred me to, I found the answer that I will use if I'm ever in such a discussion again. It's an article from Psychology Today, Porn-Induced Sexual Dysfunction is a Growing Problem. It's a very interesting article showing that the problem of porn use is physiological, not psychological as I had previously thought.

KL you've also inspired me to do way more reading on the subject than I had before. So thanks for starting the thread.

I turned away from porn use during the divorce and have abstained since. Hopefully wahtever negative affects I had have worn off.

I also have started sharing some of this info with my son. For me t his age it was a pile of stolen playboys buried somewhere in the woods. Nowadays these kids carry world of porn access on their phones. It's quite scary - although I monitor frequently.

opt

There are several articles on PT about porn addiction. There is also a site called "Your Brain on Porn."

Huh? Explain this one.

I can't find the article... can't quite put together the proper search string to bring it up.

Boiled down to MB-ish terms, the male roles in romantic movies often build an unrealistic picture of romantic partners.

More or less, romantic movies and romance/erotic novels creating a contrast effect geared more toward feminine sensibilities.

There have also been studies that show reading romance novels affect women's reports of relationship satisfaction (did a search as I wrote this, one stated; "women with low relationship expectations reported HIGHER relationship satisfaction, while women with high relationship expectations reported LOWER satisfaction" - go figure).


Anyway, the article of the first study I read on this (years ago, mind you) specifically pointed out John Cusack, largely due to his large run in Romance movies and Rom-Coms.


Don't get me wrong here, Say Anything is one of my all-time favorite movies (and one of the few "Chick Flicks" I can handle), but reading and daydreaming about that pirate portrayed by Fabio on the cover for his fictional qualities (no, not the moobs) definitely provides a contrast effect.

Time would be better spent playing pirates with your husband than reading about romance pirates.... or John Cusack in a phonebooth in the rain...


"I gave her my heart, and she gave me a pen..."

I'm not going to argue with you. But know this, you are comparing masturbation to romance. Are you sure you don't want to throw out Shakespeare too?

Simple, the very same contrast affect that is present in porn is present in romance novels.

Both establish unrealistic expectations in their target audience. You simply do not seek to meet your intimate emotional needs, be they sex or romance through a third party. Be that third party porn or a romance novel.

Romeo and Juliette is suspect...


And yes, I am comparing romance (novels) to masturbation (to pornography).

Because I am a jealous, selfish man, I want sole custody of my wife's romantic intimations.

Wanna meet in the alley about it?

In what way? I don't know specifically what John Cusack wrote, but I do like romantic comedies. Some are more realistic than others.

One problem I have heard alleged is that romantic movies set people up for the "fake" expectation of lifetime love. I've heard Dr. Harley specifically address that -- he of course believes in lifetime love, since he and Joyce have lived it.

That sounds like a straight case of POJA, to me.

One problem is that there are two approaches out there to marital harmony. One of them is the belief that everybody's expectations need to be lowered. The other is the belief that in general, performance needs to be raised.

There are of course some expectations that are unrealistic (I expect you to sacrifice for me, I expect to be independent of you), but at its heart, Marriage Builders is about the idea that we should meet those needs. Raising expectations is typically a good thing. It might result in initial disappointment, but the end result should be the solution of the problems uncovered.

Okay, I looked up John Cusack. You're right, I think this can damage marriages:

You know, that ain't what I read... what I seem to remember reading is that we get the infancy of a romance, and then... happily ever after. No managing kids and finances. No daily life stress. None of the real-life heavy lifting that occurs in real-life relationships... even life-long romantic relationships.

Strange...

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1868389,00.html

If you don't know where the bar is, you certainly can't reach it.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7784366.stm


But, but, but.... HHH! An MB marriage!... is G-R-E-A-T. Not perfect. Great.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...sexual-desire-part-2-what-s-erotic-women


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/do-the-right-thing/201203/should-you-follow-your-heart-in-love

Okay, maybe I'm naive. Maybe I just don't let things impact me like they others. Maybe, maybe, maybe...

What happened to reading a book, enjoying the book while you're reading it because it's fiction (or whatever genre), and then getting back to life when you close the cover? Yes I know the psychology behind this. But, seriously, some people need to learn to control themselves. If I read a book and there's a supermodel wife that cooks and cleans and smells like cotton candy when she wakes up, I don't start judging my marriage or my wife based on some fictional character...or movie scene or drama on stage or etc. I think Catherine Zeta Jones was beautiful in Zorro. I don't wish my wife was more like her. My wife thinks Matt Damon's character in the Bourne series is attractiv and a badass when defeating the bad guys. She isn't going to start comparing to me an action superstar. Taht would be silly.

I used to play Dungeons and Dragons a lot as a teenager. I had a friend that got swept up in the fantasy in it, got disatisfied with life, and killed himself. Does this mean Dungeons and Dragons is dangerous and should be boycotted?

I thouroughly enjoy how this conversation has put animated movies, Shakespere, and Dungeons and Dragons on an even field with Twilight and Harlequin romance novels.


I'm beginning to believe that in 200 years, Danielle Steele will have literature on par with, and as beloved as Macbeth.

Dunno. We'll see what my other source reveals...

Dungeons and Dragons outshines them all, if you ask me.

I've only played RPG video games based off of D&D rule sets... and dealt a hand of Magic the Gathering or two...

Mmmmmm .... Magic ......

Prisca and I used to play MtG, actually.

I tried to do a lot of tabletop RPGs 20 years ago, but I always preferred other systems over D&D, and could never get much interest for them from others.

Of course, we have six little up-and-coming potential gamers...

Actually....


It might be fun to go grab some decks of some collectible card game to play when NGB and I do our lock-ins...

Though, I don't quite know how one would play strip Yu-gi-Oh...

Godzilla movies are on the questionable list.

The THREE STOOGES must go !!!!! Very DANGEROUS!!!!!

*ducking*

Godzilla movies are DEFINITELY on the questionable list. As if I subjected my wife to one, she would question my sanity.


However!

We have found that action movies are a good shared experience - ala the misattribution of arousal - the excitement garnered is partially attributed to each other.

With technology, we could all play dungeons and dragons or magic the gathering! All we'd need is Skype.

I kid I kid

Funny you say that Pep. I'm watching the movie of the 3 stooges right now - the kids wanted to see it and I figured what the heck.
Well I have to tell you. I would say that movie makers otday seem to manage to find just about every way possible to work smut into a PG movie. Might not be all bad, but there are plenty of references (and choice visuals) to get an "under 13" started with the exposutre to pornographic-style material.

I realize you were referring to the old t.v. shows, but I just thought it was ironic that I was seeing this particular movie.

I guess the "your brain on porn" site has me looking at everything diferently...literally.


opt

The answer was on today's radio show (8/23/12).

Not a real solid answer, like what we have for porn... but the comparison was made; that most romantic novels are actually more sexually stimulating to women, more or less because they are written with women's libido in mind.

What was brought to the forefront here, however, was a rather simple fact; that most men would not be threatened by their wife either reading a romance novel or watching pornography.

However, being aware of contrast effect is important.


The recommendation; if reading a romance novel (or viewing a romantic movie) contributes to your marriage not feeling as happy/satisfying, don't do it.

I leave you all to listen.

Here's the radio clip where Dr. H answers the question about romance novels. It's towards the end.
Radio clip on romance novels

Dr Harley spoke against the use of porn in marriage on today's radio show and said that even if both people agree to use porn (POJA) it is a BAD idea

Here's a past show of where he talks about this very thing.
Radio clip about POJA porn?

I do agree that romance books and novels generate very silly ideas. I also think that some women become aroused or compare their husband to male roles. That's clearly dangerous.

However, I wouldn't put it on the same level as porn, because the lovebank deposits made are incidental, not purposeful.

The problem is the line is too broad and its too easy to stumble across these contrast effects, like with a PG movie.

Porn on the other hand is a deliberate attempt to sit down and get major needs met, including the most intimate of all - SF.

Having an orgasmic reaction to media is a much larger effect on the lovebank and the brain than 'Wow it'd be nice if my husband did that'.

I think porn deserves an outright ban while POJA should be used to monitor the rest. Joyce for example makes Dr H cover his eyes if there's unexpectedly a naked woman on screen when they watch TV/films. Its incidental, but she uses POJA to handle it nevertheless.

I think if certain media is making women fantasise/aroused they need to come clean re RH. Just as they should re an attractive coworker.

And men should be aware of the danger too, of course.

Very interesting clip, thanks for posting it. I would consider porn to be a betrayal as well.

Porn should be banned.
Everything is prolific today. Especially sin.
The Bible warns, "The heart of man is desperately wicked. Who can know it?"

Here's the clip HDW is talking about.
Radio clip about POJA and porn