Can anyone help with practical steps to take when I'm starting to feel angry?
My thought is to go outside and or away from the situation when I start to feel like I'm losing control of my emotions (anger). Then come back to the situation when I'm back in control.
Then come back here and post your thoughts and questions.
The questions I have for you are: 1. Does your wife make you angry? 2. What does Dr. Harley say is the best way to avoid an angry outburst? 3. What device does Dr. Harley recommend a person use to help with this?
I listened to all 4 parts of the show which was linked in the first post, good information!
It is a new thought to me that nobody can make me get angry...hmm? I think it's true but I just never thought about it like that. I think that will help me tremendously.
I think it's going good, but maybe you should ask her.
I've had instances when I felt angry but was able to back away from it and cool down. My biggest challenge is simply remembering not to allow myself to express anger.
Don't have a GSR meter but we talked about getting one. I don't know much about them, are they effective/useful for anger management? Do you have suggestions as to where to get one and what brand/model?
I listen to the radio show nearly everyday, sometimes more than once if it is especially pertinent to our situation.
By the way, I changed my display name to Pearlseeker. I was a little confused when I set up my profile. I wanted to use Pearlseeker originally but I was not sure of the difference between a username and the display name.
Don't have a GSR meter but we talked about getting one. I don't know much about them, are they effective/useful for anger management? Do you have suggestions as to where to get one and what brand/model?
I listen to the radio show nearly everyday, sometimes more than once if it is especially pertinent to our situation.
Here's what Dr. Harley says about it.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
While most of us know if we're tense or relaxed, some people find it helpful to use some form of biofeedback to help them quantify their efforts. A simple galvanic response meter can do the trick and they can be purchased on Amazon for between $50 and $100. A CD often accompanies the meter that teaches relaxation techniques. The GSR2 Biofeedback Relaxation System with CD by Bio-Medical Instruments, Inc. is about $75.
Please excuse my ignorance, but that looks like something which only works when you put your hand on it...what about when I'm working, is there any device that you can wear?
Please excuse my ignorance, but that looks like something which only works when you put your hand on it...what about when I'm working, is there any device that you can wear?
You don't need to wear it all the time. The goal is to spend lots of training sessions building the habit of relaxing when you feel frustrated, until it is just second nature to you and happens automatically. I think I started with about three training sessions per day.
We had a discussion this evening which didn't end well. We were discussing certain aspects of how interest is calculated for different types of loans. She was explaining this to one of the boys and at one point I expressed doubt that she was accurately describing the facts about a loan that we have. She seemed to think I wasn't understanding her correctly and so she repeated it several times.
In retrospect, the conversation should have ended sooner because it wasn't at all productive.
buildsherhouse gives more details about the conversation on her thread.
Toward the end of our conversation she was telling me that by disagreeing with her about facts, I was lovebusting her and that I should apologize for it.
My question for you is this: is disagreeing about facts lovebusting?
I am wondering if she and I are sufficiently compatible to have a happy marriage, here is one reason why.
In the 3 to 4 years before we met, I was a part of a group from which I learned that it was evil to want a physically attractive woman. We met in a way which seemed the "elders" approved of our relationship. For these several reasons, I did my best to stifle the voice inside me that said I wasn't strongly attracted to her physically.
This has brought me much grief in the years since. Up until recently I was loathe to verbalize this at all primarily because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, secondarily because it's not "spiritual" to want a hot woman and thirdly because telling your wife anything but that she's the most beautiful woman in the world is grounds for a society sanctioned maiming. Not wanting to be maimed or to seem unspiritual, I continued stifling that desire.
Enter MB. One of the principles of which is that physical attractiveness is a legitimate need. This was good news! And since another principle is radical honesty, I had no choice but to fess up.
Honestly, I have doubts as to the possibility of us having a deep romantic relationship for this and other reasons. So my question to all of you veteran MBers out there; what to do? Is it possible to have ones need for physical attractiveness met in this scenario by following MB principles? To have romantic love don't you have to have your needs met?
...I did my best to stifle the voice inside me that said I wasn't strongly attracted to her physically.
This has brought me much grief in the years since. ...
So my question to all of you veteran MBers out there; what to do? Is it possible to have ones need for physical attractiveness met in this scenario by following MB principles? ...
I'm not a veteran and I'm also curious to see what they say. But I do have a question for you: To the extent that you are not physically attracted to her, is there anything she can do about it? (like lose weight, exercise more, change her style, etc?) Or is she simply physically just "not your type?"
IHonestly, I have doubts as to the possibility of us having a deep romantic relationship for this and other reasons. So my question to all of you veteran MBers out there; what to do? Is it possible to have ones need for physical attractiveness met in this scenario by following MB principles? To have romantic love don't you have to have your needs met?
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
I've had several cases like yours where a husband never did find his wife attractive, even when they were dating, but married her for a variety of reasons, usually because she was pregnant. My approach is to help her make as many Love Bank deposits as possible in ways that do not require physical attractiveness, mostly with recreational companionship. My standard assignment is for them to exercise together regularly, and to be together for all leisure and recreational activities. One husband who I counseled, and followed my plan even though he didn't think it would work, called me from his car one day to tell me that for the first time in his relationship with his wife, he was in love. He couldn't wait to be with her, and he found her to be very physically attractive.
While it's true that physical appearance can make massive Love Bank deposits with someone who is not in love, being in love can make an otherwise plain looking person look physically attractive.
So in summary, I would suggest that you focus your attention on exercising together (which would help shape her up), and don't do anything recreational without her. But when you exercise, avoid having other women, especially attractive women, exercising with you. And remember my cardinal rule: 15 hours of undivided attention every week spent in meeting the emotional needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship. I wouldn't tell her that you don't find her attractive, though. Instead, I would invite her to join you in these activities that you feel would bring you closer together.
I am wondering if she and I are sufficiently compatible to have a happy marriage, here is one reason why.
In the 3 to 4 years before we met, I was a part of a group from which I learned that it was evil to want a physically attractive woman. We met in a way which seemed the "elders" approved of our relationship. For these several reasons, I did my best to stifle the voice inside me that said I wasn't strongly attracted to her physically.
This has brought me much grief in the years since. Up until recently I was loathe to verbalize this at all primarily because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, secondarily because it's not "spiritual" to want a hot woman and thirdly because telling your wife anything but that she's the most beautiful woman in the world is grounds for a society sanctioned maiming. Not wanting to be maimed or to seem unspiritual, I continued stifling that desire.
Enter MB. One of the principles of which is that physical attractiveness is a legitimate need. This was good news! And since another principle is radical honesty, I had no choice but to fess up.
Honestly, I have doubts as to the possibility of us having a deep romantic relationship for this and other reasons. So my question to all of you veteran MBers out there; what to do? Is it possible to have ones need for physical attractiveness met in this scenario by following MB principles? To have romantic love don't you have to have your needs met?
(I am now bracing for societal maiming)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, it goes back to PoJA again. As well as UA time.
PoJA: find some things that you feel can be realistically improved in her appearance that you would find appealing (weight loss, hair style, make up, manner of dress) and find points that she would enthusiastically agree to meeting.
UA: Start hitting UA goals of 25+ hours a week of UA time. Real UA time. Find activities you mutually enjoy to meet the intimate need of recreational companionship. During that, meet the needs of Intimate Conversation and Affection. Close out your dates meeting the need for Sexual Fulfillment in a manner that is mutually fulfilling.
My wife and I combine these two; we shop for RC time - I help her pick out out outfits that meet a standard of her liking, and I find appealing. Then we follow up with dinner.
If you focus on being pleasant companions, and your wife works towards a look that you find appealing, you will find her attractive.
If she meets your other needs expertly, and you two stop with the petty arguing and Love Bank withdrawals, you will find her appealing.
We had a discussion this evening which didn't end well. We were discussing certain aspects of how interest is calculated for different types of loans. She was explaining this to one of the boys and at one point I expressed doubt that she was accurately describing the facts about a loan that we have. She seemed to think I wasn't understanding her correctly and so she repeated it several times.
In retrospect, the conversation should have ended sooner because it wasn't at all productive.
buildsherhouse gives more details about the conversation on her thread.
Toward the end of our conversation she was telling me that by disagreeing with her about facts, I was lovebusting her and that I should apologize for it.
My question for you is this: is disagreeing about facts lovebusting?
It is if she says it is. Facts are next to useless to you when creating romantic love. If she finds being corrected unpleasant (and most people do) she is going to actively feel her love bank draining away and she needs to alert you to this problem.
As for 'false accusations' that something is a love buster, why would someone complain about something they find welcome and find pleasant? If she finds it unpleasant you need to stop.
When she makes a complaint like this, thank her and ask her how you could have raised your perspective in a way that respected her feelings and did not seek to correct her.
Toward the end of our conversation she was telling me that by disagreeing with her about facts, I was lovebusting her and that I should apologize for it.
My question for you is this: is disagreeing about facts lovebusting?
You were correcting her and most people find that extremely offensive. But you should not ask us if something is a love buster. We are not married to you. Your wife is the judge of that.
Do you think you should continue offensive behavior if we said it wasn't a love buster?
Enter MB. One of the principles of which is that physical attractiveness is a legitimate need. This was good news! And since another principle is radical honesty, I had no choice but to fess up.
I wonder if you are getting your very fixed view of what is physically attractive to you by comparing your wife to other women, either in real life or in the media.
RLPA, you will believe it when you SEE it. Obviously you are not going to believe it before it happens. I only believe it because it happened to me and because I have seen it happen hundreds of times over the past 14 years on this board.
Dr Harley often says that people who are in love don't believe they will ever fall out of love and people who are NOT in love don't believe they will ever fall back in love. So, you are no different than most couples who show up here with one reluctant, skeptical spouse.
This really spoke to me. In reading here on this website, reading Dr Harleys books, listening to the radio show, I'm learning that it is possible for 2 people to be in love all the time. I'm hearing that there are people out there who are genuinely and thoroughly happy being together!
I want to be in love. But I'm struggling with motivation to move forward because the "idea" of being in love, while it sounds very desirable, seems impossible to achieve. Sort of like a person living in squalor and poverty might hear of a beautiful home in a nice neighborhood and think: "Wow, living there would be so wonderful!"
In much the same way, I'm finding it hard to get the mental and emotional motivation to move toward that seemingly impossible dream.
People say it's awesome to be there but what if they're faking it? What if I venture out only to find that the plan I'm following will not get me there?
Learning how to be irresistible is unlikely to go to waste.
Brushing up my negotiation skills and developing a sensitive and respectful persona have benefitted me in other areas of life too.
There was a wayward wife on these forums a while back, rubbing her husbands nose in the affair, genuinely believing she could never be in love with him.
Today not only are they deliriously happy but she is saving her friends marriages - that's how good this plan is.
It fails sometimes when you have one person utterly uncommitted but I've never seen it fail when its followed by both spouses.
I HATED this program when my husband brought me here. He had already drug me through several counselors, and I didn't want to do it all over again.
I only ended up going through the program because I felt like I had to. Even then, it was half-hearted a lot of the time, until my husband started making me feel some moments of being in love. Then I saw what it could do, and wanted more.
Now we're in love. I am on here everyday helping people (for free) through a program we spent thousands of dollars to go through ourselves. I have no reason to fake supporting a program I originally hated.
RLPA, you will believe it when you SEE it. Obviously you are not going to believe it before it happens. I only believe it because it happened to me and because I have seen it happen hundreds of times over the past 14 years on this board.
Dr Harley often says that people who are in love don't believe they will ever fall out of love and people who are NOT in love don't believe they will ever fall back in love. So, you are no different than most couples who show up here with one reluctant, skeptical spouse.
This really spoke to me. In reading here on this website, reading Dr Harleys books, listening to the radio show, I'm learning that it is possible for 2 people to be in love all the time. I'm hearing that there are people out there who are genuinely and thoroughly happy being together!
I want to be in love. But I'm struggling with motivation to move forward because the "idea" of being in love, while it sounds very desirable, seems impossible to achieve. Sort of like a person living in squalor and poverty might hear of a beautiful home in a nice neighborhood and think: "Wow, living there would be so wonderful!"
In much the same way, I'm finding it hard to get the mental and emotional motivation to move toward that seemingly impossible dream.
People say it's awesome to be there but what if they're faking it? What if I venture out only to find that the plan I'm following will not get me there?
If the plan you are following is far from the plan outlined in this program, then it is not very likely to get you there.
As assessed recently, your plan isn't going to get you there.
You and your wife need to get your heads together and etch out 25+ hours each week to restore romantic love.
Enter MB. One of the principles of which is that physical attractiveness is a legitimate need. This was good news! And since another principle is radical honesty, I had no choice but to fess up.
I wonder if you are getting your very fixed view of what is physically attractive to you by comparing your wife to other women, either in real life or in the media.
I didn't phrase this as a question, but it was one, and I'd like an answer to it, please.
I wonder if you are getting your very fixed view of what is physically attractive to you by comparing your wife to other women, either in real life or in the media.
I'm not certain where I got my ideas from, it is likely that I am influenced by the media.
After more honest soul searching, I realize that I have been largely acting as a renter. I have at times entertained fantasies about other women. I have confessed this to her and I do now fully commit myself to give her the care she needs and love only her.
Already, I am seeing her body in a different way. I have hope that we can become deeply in love in every way as we follow MB principles.
Please hold me accountable in this. I feel weak at this point. I know that I must continually renew this commitment.
I HATED this program when my husband brought me here. He had already drug me through several counselors, and I didn't want to do it all over again.
I only ended up going through the program because I felt like I had to. Even then, it was half-hearted a lot of the time, until my husband started making me feel some moments of being in love. Then I saw what it could do, and wanted more.
Now we're in love. I am on here everyday helping people (for free) through a program we spent thousands of dollars to go through ourselves. I have no reason to fake supporting a program I originally hated.
So, when you find your mind wandering off path, redirect your thoughts to your wife. Plan something for the two of you to do together. Think of a gift for her, or of rubbing her back... or of taking a hot bath with her.
Redirect your thoughts towards acts of love for you wife.
Personally, I have a good time shopping online for my wife - I know all her sizes and measurements... and for myself, I don't even see the clothing models.
For you, right now... maybe not. But it is something you can develop over time.
Just STOP IT! That is exactly what I need to do. And always consciously direct my thoughts toward her.
I am amazed at how quickly my emotions come in line with what I have committed to doing (exclusively loving her). I already feel my self drawn to her. I think about her and desire her in every way.
It has been such a strong motivator to confess my faults and state clear intentions for changing my behavior here on this forum. There's something so powerful about doing it this way, knowing that you are there and will hold me accountable.
I/we have a long way to go but the journey has begun and I have hope of seeing a brighter future.
We went to the gym together several times now. I am enjoying going and being with her there.
In a recent show Dr Harley described the awkwardness that many have felt after going through the MB seminar. He said "people often feel that all of the other forms of communicating are gone and all they have left is to say: 'how do you feel about this or that' and that feels awkward. It feels like something they learned in a seminar somewhere."
Boy can I relate! I want to say something but I have this censoring voice inside saying: "nope, can't say that!" gotta say "how do you feel about this." It is difficult to say those words in anything but an amiable state of mind. It is a struggle to change my vocabulary but I feel good about it. I like how it makes me feel toward her, like she is important and worthy of the utmost care. It is surprising what a difference word choice makes.
I am struggling with resentment because of things I can't do that bother her. According to MB principles, if something bothers a spouse, that's the end of it. Dr Harley reasons that resentment type A is worse than type B because type A results from actions which one can't away from while type B resentment lasts only until another suitable activity takes the place of the activity which caused the bother. I beg to differ. There are activities for which there is nothing to replace them with.
How do you guys work through this? How do you solve it when there is an activity which one spouse REALLY enjoys but must abandon because it bothers the other spouse?
Yes, I know we're supposed to negotiate but what if there is no activity that takes it's place? The resentment does not go away...
The thing about replacements is that they don't have to be similar to the thing you are replacing.
The point is to fill your life together with activities from God's creation that bring you both joy and give you something to look forward to in life. There are a zillion activities that might give you joy, and there are a billion activities that might give your wife joy. And out of both of those very large sets, there is a smaller set of maybe a million things that are in your set and in her set. Fill your life with those activities.
So you would enjoy shooting, but she doesn't enjoy for you to do it, so you find something else enjoyable to do. Maybe you need to try something absolutely new, or maybe it's something you already enjoy. The replacement might be taking up windsurfing, or going on more vacations, or having Chinese food more often, or owning a cat. The replacement is whatever you enjoy that gives you something to look forward to and may be nothing like shooting. But your resentment will go away when you succeed at building a happy life that is compatible with your wife.
There are a lot of things I used to enjoy before I got married. When my marriage was terrible, I missed those things a LOT! One example would be taking walks in the suburbs in the evenings where I used to live, particularly at Christmas time. Another would be certain video games I used to play. But once my wife Prisca and I succeeded at building a good marriage together, my resentment went away. Part of doing that was filling our life with things that I (and she) look forward to.
Dr. Harley used to play chess before Joyce, but he had to eliminate that from his life in order to be compatible with her. He doesn't miss it because they filled their life with other things. The replacement wasn't checkers or online chess or anything similar - it was just other activities they enjoy.
When you look at depressed people's schedules, you see that they have nothing to look forward to each day. I've found it's very important for my wife and me to fill our schedules with things that we look forward to. What you're feeling now is the sense of irretrievable loss that depressed people feel - you've lost something in your schedule that you looked forward to. You need to find something to look forward to that your wife loves having in your life. You might ask Dr. Harley for some help if you can't think of anything.
I'd suggest starting trying some new activities to see how they work soon, before depression sets in.
I have a major problem with the general philosophy but I'm not sure that I can discuss that here.
You can tell us what obstacles you see. You can't go post to others and tell them "this stuff will never work!" or anything like that. Obviously it has worked for many of us.
You can have whatever philosophy you want, but the evidence suggests that people pretty much can't have a good marriage if their philosophy is that they out to be able to do some things that bother their spouse.
Did you know that I had to give up going out to lunch from work for awhile? It bothered my wife. I think the day I did that in response to her complaint was the day she finally realized I was serious. You and I both know almost everybody would tell me that it is crazy for me to not be able to go out to lunch when I like if we have the money. But we also know that almost everybody has a terrible marriage.
After pondering what you said markos, she and I had a discussion about the topic of finding activities to replace lost ones which didn't make the POJA cut. During our discussion I had a light bulb moment because of a hypothetical suggestion she made regarding somebody elses situation. I'm definitely more enthusiastic than before about POJA!
So glad to hear I could help, Pearlseeker. Keep up the good work!
Let me just add that looking at other people's issues really does help those light bulbs to go on with your own. That's one of the selfish reasons I became so active around here. I was 99.9% blind to my own disrespect that I showed Prisca, but slowly I learned to see it when other people were doing it, and that helped me figure out what I was doing wrong. Same for a lot of other issues.
So last weekend, (Fri,Sat) we had several rather unpleasant discussions. On Saturday during our discussion something very important was brought up. I felt strongly that unless we could resolve this issue, I could not continue in this marriage.
Fast forward to Sunday night. We had a recorded conversation during which we discussed the issue. I think we also discussed my use of instagram. Long story short, after our discussion I told her I wouldn't use instagram anymore at the house until we discussed it and found a mutually satisfactory solution.
The next day it was like the clouds parted and I found myself in this beautiful land where the flowers vibrate with sound and I felt in love with her! I told her that I don't know why I feel this way, that it felt weird but I couldn't stop thinking about her and thinking how much I loved her.
Looking back, the only plausible explanation I can come up with for the change in how I feel is that I gave up instagram out of genuine care for her. Does this make sense?
So now I want to continue living in this blissful state of love more than I want my necessary food. I'm very concerned that I don't slip back into old habits but rather move forward and regain her love and affection so that the feeling will be mutual. Sandy recommended to us that the most important thing to do going forward is to have plenty of UA time which will facilitate the maintenance of this feeling of love. Any advice from you guys would be much appreciated.
I must have this "drug", I'm fast becoming hooked on love.
Choosing to exercise goodwill and care toward your spouse can be so freeing. Maybe the efforts you both have made little by little are adding up and this last act of care was like the final climb to the top of a mountain.
As a sidenote: Gotta hand it to Sandy- she is unbelievably patient. :)(Speaking from experience.)
Sorry I'm a bit late to this - that is wonderful news, Pearlseeker!
My guess is that now that you are doing a better job of avoiding love busters (like the independent behavior of instagram), your wife feels much better toward you and it shows - and it makes her a lot more effective in meeting your emotional needs. So now you can be in love! The reward!
Keep up the good work - keep following the program. Dr. Harley's methods really do create and sustain this feeling. You are right that it is like a drug. I am convinced God created us to feel this way, and that doing so is a gift from Him.
The biggest challenge is to stay in love. Not quite there yet.
For many of us, the process is full of ups and downs as small deposits and withdrawals move us above and below the threshold in the love bank several times. I actually feel like I learned a lot from that - I learned that when my wife is not in love with me, I can fix that, so if something happens to destabilize us for a bit I quickly get to work making things right.
You might feel some encouragement from reading Dr. Harley's article about his marriage counseling process:
From the third session on, you're guided by the treatment plan that you agreed to follow. Each week you report your successes and failure to the counselor. He/she guides you through the emotional minefields, motivational swamps and creative wildernesses. If your counselor is right for you, you'll come to like and respect him/her more and more as time goes by. You'll see your marriage improve in fits and starts. Some weeks will be blissful while others will be unbearable.
Fits and starts - but improvement. And you'll learn how to have a good marriage, for life. And your children will learn by living in it.
Fits and starts here too, but overall progress should be positive. Something that I noticed pulls us back is sacrificing. If I sacrifice, the Love Bank takes a big hit.
I need a little help understanding negotiation and POJA.
Last night as we were on our way to town, she brought up a certain trip she wants to go on with the children. At first she phrased her questions in way that sounded like she really wanted to know what I thought and whether or not I was interested in going on that particular trip. However, I wasn't at all sure that not going on that particular trip was an option in her mind. Later in the (recorded) conversation this was confirmed to me when she said "to me it is not negotiable whether we take some trips or not." . Later she doubled down on this and said: "I feel like we will be taking trips and we need to negotiate what, when, etc." and she also said: "to me it's negotiable whether you go on trips." I said I don't like it that going on a trip or not wasn't negotiable.
My basic problem with this scenario is that she is approaching the topic at hand with the foregone conclusion that she and the children will be going on trips and my only real choice is whether or not I'm going along. My understanding of the POJA is that nothing is to be done without an enthusiastic agreement from the other guy. It seems that for her to say to me "not going on trips is not an option" violates this. I want to start from zero where both of us can put forth ideas for family activities and we decide together which ones to do and neither of us gets to say to the other one, this particular thing must happen.
It's a great relief to me because I was feeling anxious about this topic. I thought that is how it is supposed to work but wasn't sure if this could be an exception to poja.
Good! That book is helpful. I especially like how it addresses what to do when you are stuck in a do nothing position, and the do nothing is starting to hurt because no good alternatives are offered.
Hi, Pearlseeker. I saw your post to Dr. Harley, and your wife's before that. I'm sure you'll get a good answer from him. I can see several things in your post that stand out to me as possibly being concerning to your wife.
It sounds like you got great direction from Dr. Harley and the two of you are on the right track to negotiating something you are both enthusiastic about. Here's the things I picked up on. I asked my wife to read your post to see if she picked up the same things, and she did - she said she would be extremely worried if it were me saying it.
The first thing that concerned me was the comment about feeling antsy or stir crazy - it just makes it sound like a possible concern that you might just suddenly feel the urge to bolt and do what you want regardless of how your wife feels. Add a history of independent behavior, and I'm sure your wife was feeling very anxious.
The next thing that stood out to me is how much you used the word "I" as opposed to "we." You talked about your variety of interests, your activities, you needing variety of choice in what you do, etc. The wording makes it sound like there is a large chunk of your life spent in recreation without your wife. Do most of your recreational activities take place with her?
The phrase "it seems like I have not yet begun to live" was concerning to me - I would expect most wives to feel offended to feel their husband talk about them like this. When I think back to how things were for me several years ago, I can certainly empathize, but the problem in retrospect was the need to integrate with my wife and have a good marriage with her and accomplish goals together in life - that brought about the sense of fulfillment I was looking for.
Very good observations, thank you for bringing up those things! I hadn't thought about it like that.
We don't have much time for recreational activities. Yes I know, we should make the time but it just isn't always possible with a very tight budget and small children. About the only recreational activity I do without her is watch movies in the evening while she reads a book or something like that. It is often the last thing we do for the day and we are usually completely exhausted and the recreation is simply a bit of relaxation before sleeping.
Suggestions have been made by Sandy and I think Dr Harley also. The big problem for us is partly due to not being able to do the things we plan before we become exhausted and from my perspective anyway, often not really enjoying the time we do spend together.
Some things are happening now that I'm hopefull will help. However, I'm not sure that I want to elaborate here on the public forum.
I'm very confused and really having a difficult time understanding how to go about creating a great marriage. There are several areas of difficulty. One is insufficient UA time. Another is conflict resolution. Another problem area is as described below.
I am having difficulty reaching an understanding with my wife when it is a situation where she says I did something that bothered her but she won't tell me what it was. I'm left trying to remember what was said and what bothered her but I'm often not sure at all what it was.
I have told her I would like it if she gave me instant feedback when I do or say something that bothers her but so far very little has been forthcoming. Sometimes she gets angry with me then and insists that she is giving me instant feedback and I don't know what to with that because she very rarely tells me at the time it happens.
For example: last Saturday morning we had a discussion about various issues. During said conversation she commented that in order for her to enjoy being with me I have be pleasant to be around. I asked her if I was pleasant on our date the night before. She replied, "you made a comment about sex that I didn't like." So I asked her what I said that bothered her. Then she said, "I don't think this is a good time to talk about it" and that was the end of it.
This pattern keeps repeating again and again. She will claim I did something but when I ask for an example or specifics she will either say, "I don't want to talk about it" or "I don't think this is a good time to discuss it." Often I will ask how she would feel about emailing me or I'll ask her when she would like to discuss it and that usually gets no response either. If she does respond it is often days, weeks or even months later and then it is more difficult to remember the situation.
I know she doesn't have to talk about something if she doesn't want to but how can we move forward unless I know exactly what bothered her?
Can anyone advise me on how to handle this kind of situation? Do I just need to be patient? Give it more time?
Many times my wife was like this and didn't want to give me information about my love busters. Most of the time it was because she felt that giving me information in the past had not helped her. In fact it used to lead to bad fights. Even after that she was usually reluctant to give me information if she wasn't feeling good about us.
Kim advised us many times not to try to exchange information about love busters in the heat of the moment but to stick to weekly worksheets. In my experience this is very good advice. It almost completely prevents fights and made it much more likely that Prisca would give me information. I advised another couple here last week to use worksheets and to not even discuss the worksheets - if he has a question, he can get help from Dr. Harley or from us to understand why she felt something was disrespectful or otherwise a love buster.
I think your wife will feel a lot better when she feels there are no love busters from you and they are all in the distant past. Ask her if she will give you weekly love busters worksheets listing times she felt you were demanding, disrespectful, or angry, or engaged in independent behavior.
It's possible she won't be willing to do this. In that case I would pick one day of the week and ask her, weekly, "Do you feel I was demanding, disrespectful, or angry during the last week, or engaged in any independent behavior?" If she doesn't tell you "no," then there's a problem that you need to look into. Let us know, and we will see if we can help.
I'm desperate for any help or advice. Should I setup an appointment to speak with Steve Harley?
Here's where we are. We've been through 2 years of coaching, as far as I know I have mostly eliminated love busters, am doing my best to get to 0 and stay there. It's the nuances that I keep messing up on. According to her, I have eliminated my anger problem. We have been getting about 3 to 6 hours of UA time (I know it's not enough). Sometimes I think we're making progress and getting closer to intimacy but then out of the blue she unloads by telling me how bad things are. Like this evening we were on our date and were discussing a troubled teenager that she's been helping. I expressed concern about the extra effort on her part asking her if she was feeling ok. She then told me that working with the troubled teenager doesn't drain her energy but being with me does. So I'm at my wits end. I asked her what I'm doing that's draining her but she didn't want to talk about it.
I can't help but think there's something that I'm missing, something that I don't understand that is keeping me from becoming a great husband to her. I want desperately to become the man of her dreams but it seems like the harder I try to meet her needs the farther we get from the goal. I wish someone could just beat me over the head if need be to get the essential information into my heart. What am I doing wrong?
I'm sorry if this post is not very lucid, I'm feeling a little desperate right now.
After I wrote the above, we did have a conversation about what she feels is draining her. The main reason according to her is that she feels under constant pressure to meet my needs.
I don't know what to say to that. Is this a normal part of recovery? Do I just keep doing my best to follow the program and hope things will improve with more time?
After I wrote the above, we did have a conversation about what she feels is draining her. The main reason according to her is that she feels under constant pressure to meet my needs.
I don't know what to say to that. Is this a normal part of recovery? Do I just keep doing my best to follow the program and hope things will improve with more time?
Your wife would not feel under pressure to meet your needs if she was in love with you. Meeting your needs would be what she would want to do most in the world.
How to get her to fall back in love with you? 20 hours a week of UA time when you focus on meeting her needs. This is the missing piece.
If she says she feels drained being with you, that is a sign that you are still doing some things that she feels are demanding, disrespectful, or angry, even if she doesn't call it that. A clue is that she says she feels "pressured." That means she feels like there are consequences if she doesn't meet your needs.
To win a wife back after being a demanding, disrespectful, and angry husband, you really have to go the extra mile to be pleasant and cheerful even when she chooses not to meet your needs. I know that's an extremely tall order, but it does work. She is going to test to see what happens when she does and does not meet your needs.
Also, as noted, spend more enjoyable time with her. Slant that time toward her enjoyment. Talk, talk, talk, talk to her. Don't try to advise her on anything in life unless she asks for your advice, but support her in her goals.
How to get her to fall back in love with you? 20 hours a week of UA time when you focus on meeting her needs. This is the missing piece.
I would love to have 20 hours per week but so far she has not been willing to do that. She has time for her friends, our children, etc but she has not been willing to have more UA time. As to the meeting of her needs, I'm doing a good job of meeting her needs as best I know. Here again, very rarely is she even willing to discuss her needs. I would love to meet them! When she does express needs its usually doing some project around the house which I gladly do.
Sounds like I have only excuses for not doing the program fully but I don't know how to do it by myself.
Some good news. This morning I had a brief conversation with her. She said if I'm consistent in expressing my love for her and attraction to her she may be more enthusiastic about our marriage. So I do have something that I can work on.
She said if I'm consistent in expressing my love for her and attraction to her she may be more enthusiastic about our marriage. So I do have something that I can work on.
That is affection and admiration right there, and she almost certainly needs good conversation in order to be in love with you.
Read, review, and practice Dr. Harley's friends and enemies of good conversation every day. It's crucial.
Look! One great way to make moderately large love bank deposits for a withdrawn wife is Family Commitment. Many times Prisca wouldn't spend any time alone with me but was willing to spend time with me and the children, and she found herself feeling good watching me give them my attention.
Another idea is to observe what she is interested in doing/learning and use that as a hook. For example, if she has a sport or a hobby then find UA ways to extend it. Do some research, maybe find an amazing event connected to it that she would never have found and casually suggest doing it together. Then you will be her hero too.
Personally I enjoy repairing things. When my DH helps me, it makes massive love bank deposits for both of us. Last week we repaired a tree!
Yesterday in an effort to understand what I'm doing that bothers her I sent her this email:
Quote
How would you feel about giving me love busters work sheets every day or every week?
I'm waiting to hear back from her. Is my wording ok? After I sent it I thought perhaps I could have said something like this:
""I'm very motivated to completely eliminate all love busters. How would you feel about helping me do that by filling out love busters worksheets throughout the week and then giving them to me?""
On Friday night we had a discussion about another couples problems which led to me having a flashback of painful memories from the past few years. The painful part for me was mostly due to this:
Whenever I would complain about her behavior that was very hurtful to me, she would consistently either deny having done the actions I was complaining about or insist it wasn't a love buster.
Also, she would communicate things about me to the counselor that were false. In that state of being told by my wife that all of our problems were my fault, her consistently denying her own actions that were hurting me and not having anyone to talk to, it would often be overwhelming. I would feel hopeless of ever being able to achieve a happy marriage. ------------------------------
Back to the present, you say the ball is in my court, how is that exactly? I'm at a loss as to how I'm hurting her. I'm eager to eliminate my behavior that bothers her.
She did write one thing on a sheet of paper, I thanked her letting me know and that thing will not happen again. I don't know what else I'm doing that is love busting her? Seriously, there is virtually nothing coming from her as to how I'm hurting her. I have asked many times for consistency in giving me written or verbal feedback as to what I'm doing to hurt her but I'm getting virtually nothing. When I conclude from the lack of complaints that I must be doing ok she gets angry with me and insists that she is telling me. Where is it? What did I do today? Yesterday? The day before?
As to what happened on Friday night, Dr Harley advised me that if I'm in a state of mind wherein I don't feel able to be pleasant I should not be present with her. On Friday night I had a terrible heavy feeling, an overwhelmed feeling of hopelessness. It has happened before. She has told me that she doesn't want to try to help me get out of such a state. So in order to follow Dr Harley's advice and to respect her wish not to help me, I said that I'd like to have solitude to think and pray. What should I have done instead?
What you need to do, pronto, is to get onto anti-depressants. You can't expect your wife to put up with moody, sorrowful, "I need to be alone" behaviour like that.
Tried antidepressants last year and had a horrible reaction to them. Lost several days of work because of fever, nausea, etc. The subsequent tests done by my doctor confirmed that it was a reaction to the antidepressants. The specific drug I used was the generic version of Wellbutrin.
I'm very nervous about trying another kind of drug. Has anyone experienced bad reactions to one kind of drug but then had good success with another kind?
Tried antidepressants last year and had a horrible reaction to them. Lost several days of work because of fever, nausea, etc. The subsequent tests done by my doctor confirmed that it was a reaction to the antidepressants. The specific drug I used was the generic version of Wellbutrin.
I'm very nervous about trying another kind of drug. Has anyone experienced bad reactions to one kind of drug but then had good success with another kind?
What does your doctor recommend? Does he have another suggestion?
As understand it, there is an element of trial and error in anti-depressant use.
However, I don't want my post to lead to a discussion of the trials and tribulations of specific drugs. My point is that you CANNOT inflict this behaviour on your wife. You cannot expect her to put up with it, or to just wait until you are over it. You will have to find a way of managing your behaviour so that she is not on the the receiving end of your moods.
We've all had bad experiences somewhere in our lives, but nobody can expect to have a good marriage with an engaged spouse if they disengage from that spouse and make them miserable while they indulge their triggers and flashbacks.
Whenever I would complain about her behavior that was very hurtful to me, she would consistently either deny having done the actions I was complaining about or insist it wasn't a love buster.
Also, she would communicate things about me to the counselor that were false. In that state of being told by my wife that all of our problems were my fault, her consistently denying her own actions that were hurting me and not having anyone to talk to, it would often be overwhelming. I would feel hopeless of ever being able to achieve a happy marriage.
You need to think twice about the wisdom of calling your wife a liar - for that is what you've just done.
Is there something wrong with your wife, that she tells bald-faced lies about you? If you are married to a fantasist, who blatantly lies when it is clear that what she says never took place, then I would ask you why you are still married to such a person. However, I suspect that she neither a liar or a fantasist.
Have you heard of perspective? Could it be that your wife's perspective on an event is different from yours? And have you heard about disrespectful judgements? Did your coach ever tell you that it is disrespectful of you to tell your wife (or to think) that she is saying things that are false?
You might have made a lot more progress in your marriage if you had listened to your wife's complaints and acted to stop the behaviour that she complained of, rather than thinking that she was telling the counsellor things that were false. (And if you were having counselling sessions in the same room, where you could hear what she said about you, no wonder you felt resentful about each other).
As to what happened on Friday night, Dr Harley advised me that if I'm in a state of mind wherein I don't feel able to be pleasant I should not be present with her. On Friday night I had a terrible heavy feeling, an overwhelmed feeling of hopelessness. It has happened before. She has told me that she doesn't want to try to help me get out of such a state. So in order to follow Dr Harley's advice and to respect her wish not to help me, I said that I'd like to have solitude to think and pray. What should I have done instead?
What you should have done instead was to knock it off.
You cannot expect to have a loving wife and a good marriage when you treat your wife like this. What do you think will be the result of inflicting your sour moods on her? And seeking solitude to think and pray (about the past - something that is gone and that cannot be changed) is inflicting your mood on her every bit as much as if you'd sat in the same room and mourned. How was she supposed to feel after you'd finished your bout of self-indulgence?
Think twice before you do that again, and next time, decide not to do it. If you really are at the mercy of your moods, and you cannot control your behaviour and be decent to your wife, see your doctor as a matter of urgency, and explain that you need help. Otherwise, train yourself to change your focus from past hurts, and deal with the present. Relaxation techniques - which only take a few minutes to practice - will help with calming down and refocusing in times of distress.
Pearlseeker, one thing I think you need to understand is that for a wife to be happy she needs her husband to be her emotional rock. That can be very difficult for emotional men like you and me. Apparently we as men are equipped to deal with an emotional woman, but she is not equipped to deal with that from us.
So it's crucial to practice relaxation training as Dr. Harley describes. You need to learn how to physically relax every muscle in your body, and then you need to learn how to do this while thinking about something frustrating and staying relaxed, and then you need to learn how to do this in your wife's presence, staying relaxed no matter what. Ultimately she needs you to be able to stay positive and in her presence.
If you do need to leave for awhile to calm down, then least said, soonest mended: most of what you say is going to sound like you are blaming her for your emotions. Don't do that, because it's going to be a big love bank withdrawal and sabotage your goal. Calm down, then look for a way to come back and be positive and upbeat.
Antidepressants can help while you are learning to do this, and yes it is frequently necessary for doctors to try different medications or dosages until they get the right one for you.
Another thing to mention, pearlseeker: whatever list you end up with of weekly love busters, whether that be a list your wife gives you or a list you construct on your own or with help from others, I suggest you keep those lists! Review them regularly so that when she is upset and feeling like you are doing the same old things, you will know what those things are, and you will not frustrate her with requests to repeat those things.
In fact I suggest you also create a written plan of things you need to filter out from what you do and say. That should be constructed after you've had time to reflect on feedback from your wife (and from here, and from coaching), and you should review it regularly to keep it fresh on your mind.
As an example, I learned I had to eliminate hyperbole from what I said to Prisca - she gave me specific examples of things she felt were disrespectful, and I eventually realized that when I made statements that were exaggerated for emphasis, she felt disrespected. So that went onto my written plan.
Also, it sounds like your wife felt she was really benefiting from the coaching. I think you should get back into it. I hate to sound like I'm just trying to sell Dr. Harley's services, but it sounds like your wife felt it was very beneficial and would feel more cared for if you kept at it.
Finally, let me say that this does get better when you finally "hit the mark." You're not there yet, but you've made progress. It may feel discouraging that that progress is not more visible, but rest assured that as you refine your ability to make love bank deposits and avoid withdrawals, eventually you will breach the romantic love threshold, and that truly does make all the difference.
