07/22/06
W Moved out.





Things to remember.



JS

(((JSLost))) How are you holding up? Where are the kids? How are they handling all this?

Hello JS,

I just read through your whole thread. I have to say we are in similar situations. I understand that money is tight and that counseling with Steve Harley can get expensive. I have to say that I wish I would have called Steve two years ago. I have started working with Steve for two months now. Since there are a lot of similarities, I would like to offer you some of the things Steve has taught me. Maybe these thoughts will help you somehow. I do wish you the best chances for success as I hope all of us in this situation obtain the ability to reach clarity and the wisdom and understanding to make our M's filled with true love again.

Earlier you commented on how your W was angry with you and this seemed to be building up as you were in the process of demonstrating changes in yourself. MyAlias was right on target. SH told me that our Ws went for a long period of time feeling a certain way and feeling that their ENs were neglected. To allow themselves to survive, they naturally withdrew from our meeting their ENs anymore. This lessened their feelings of dissapointment and sadness while at the same time allowed them to remain in the M longer. Unfortunately, after an extended period of time, they still realized their needs were not being met (for whatever reason) and they wrote us off. At the point they wrote us off, we finally were able to see some of the damage we had done with our previously poor behavior. We did what any selfconcious and caring spouse would do, we decided to change ourselves for the better. When our Ws started to actually see these changes they longed so much for, they became upset (why now, why would you not listen before, etc..). Their anger mounted because they now could see we were capable of behaving how they wanted us too, and were confused and hurt as to why it took this long after they had been through so much. They probably had a feeling that we cared very little for them in the past (which you and I know is deeply untrue, but are both unable to explain this to them). SH's summary is that this anger is a good thing and is natural and is something we must step through to come out on the other side. SH told me, "I do not know how to tell you to get through this anger period. It is very difficult. Just hang on and get through it. Once you are through it is when the opportunities for future success will come."

SH told me to stay in the house and not to push or help W to leave. He told me to definitely not make it sound ok or accepted to D. I am in the same position as you are where I believe my W is hoping for me to give up and to just accept our end. I do not believe ending our M is what we should do right now and therefore, I will not do this. SH also told me that if I were to start making enroads towards splitting up and that a D is ok, my W would become happier with me and things might seem nicer for a bit, but it would be false. She is in a fog of illogical thinking right now as per SH.

As we can only change ourselves and empower ourselves to make our own decisions, it is our responsibility to become the best person we can be. It is also our responsibility to lay a foundation in which our Ws can fall in love with us if they so choose to. Therefore, we need to protect ourselves by maintaining our health and conserving our energy as well as mentally protecting us. Here SH feels that a small amount of withdrawl is healthy on our parts because we feel betrayed in our Ms and our Ws are not demonstrating trust worthy behavior at the moment. Therefore, we would be fools to expect trust worthy behavior, and even bigger fools to be disappointed and hurt once we find our trust broken again because we did not protect ourselves.

We also need to remain nice and communicate with our Ws. We should not LB or DJ no matter what. We should work towards giving affection to our Ws. Yes, I know you'll may say that W will not let me whatever..., but SH means the kind of affection that is under the radar. Things like notes, gestures, maybe little presents etc.. go a long way. His theory is called "rocks in a river" and it is something I hold onto EVERYDAY!

Rocks in a River: You find yourself on the bank of a wide river. It is too wide to jump across, and yet you still need to cross it. What do you do? You start picking up rocks and throwing them into the river. (These rocks are each small affectionate thing you do for your W). For the first 499 rocks, you see the rock hit the water, and then it dissapears. These rocks are sinking and landing on the bottom of the river. Eventually you get to rock #500 and it hits the water and part of it is sticking up above the surface. You now realize you are getting somewhere. You can finally see progress. For the first 499 rocks, you knew they were stacking up, but you had no proof other than common sense telling you that they were building up. We have to approach our relationships now as if every piece of affection is one of those rocks. We will not see any progress until a number of rocks have been thrown. However, just because we are not seeing these first 499 rocks does not mean they are not having an impact. Believe that they are, because they are.

Another thing I learned from SH is that if you are doing plan "A," or in your case plan "A+" correctly, you should feel like a doormat, a fool and that you are taken for granted. This is because plan A is where you attempt to meet all of your partner's ENs without them meeting yours. This by definition will cause you to feel these certain ways. If you feel this way, you are working your plan successfully. The important part here is that you have empowered yourself to make decisions for yourself. This is how you know you actually are not a doormat and that you will make decisions when the time is right. It is very important to demonstrate positive change in yourself to your partner for as long as they will let you, or as long as you have the energy to do so. This is laying th foundation to allow a plan B the best chance for success if you have to go the plan B route. This is because, you will have not only demonstrated your ability to change, you will have established a track record with your spouse (even if you feel they did not notice).

With a plan B you are seperated from your spouse and the "reality" of their situation comes to light. Especially for the case of an affair. You see, once you stop meeting your spouse's needs full stop, they will turn to their affair partner and look for them to meet these needs that you are now not meeting. This usually puts way too much pressure on the affair and it more often than not tends to break up the affair. It also can work in your case if there really is no affair. A strong dose of reality can be good for your W. However, your working with her because she is being nice to you is enabling her and saying it is alright to leave you and your family. I know you feel the opposite right now, but you need a reality check as well.

Yes, women want strong men. They also want sensitive men. They do not want needy men. Well, I think this is too hard of a set of rules to follow and is where reality gets a little skewed. However, looking at the big picture, here you are, being helpful towards your W with her leaving you and splitting up your family. You are not delivering a message that there is a plan available that would allow you and your W to fall back in love with each other. I am afraid you both are adrift right now. I would highly recommend you taking a session with SH to get your head on straight (even if it is one session). Believe me, in one session he can really help you.

Put it this way, what monetary value would you put on your M? Is your M worth more than $180US to you? I would venture to guess it is. Like I said in the beginning, one of the biggest regrets I have is that I did not call SH two years ago. I was prompted by the nice people on this site to call SH and I did not listen. Don't make the same mistake. Make an appointment!

I do wish you the best.

EL

JS is doing pretty good.

W came home Friday night and said lets all go and show the kids the new house. On the way there W looked really scared and upset and said “what am I going to tell them?”
I said “don’t worry, they wont think anything of it……(yet)……... (House is still empty etc.) When we got inside they were running around all happy and I just told them that we have another house now and Mommy’s going to stay here and Daddy’s going to stay at (our) house.
All the questions after that were going to be up to her.
They thought it was a neat idea, although they still looked a little confused.

I should have let her talk but I didn’t want my kids to be hurting……they will be hurting enough after the newness wears off.

W moved her stuff out on Saturday. Kids and I went to my sisters, about an hour away. We had McDonalds then went swimming in sisters’ pool. (big in ground pool) Kids didn’t get out all day. We had a blast. Brother in law cooked some big a$$ steaks, some stuffed mushrooms, corn on the cob, sweat potatoes.
You say potato I say potaatto…had a few Mexican beers, laughed etc. etc.

Earlier in the week I had told W I would probably be home around 6 or so. We left about 9:30 in the morning and bil didn’t start the grill until about 6:00 p.m. We ate then the kids wanted to go swimming some more so I said “go for it” lol. Ice Cream truck came by, ate Ice Cream, told kids to get out and let’s get ready to leave.
D7 said “yeah, we get to go to mommy’s now; S7 cried…”I thought we were staying at sisters house”.

On the way to sister’s house that morning I asked S12 if he was staying at mom’s house tonight. He said “I’m not sure yet. I told him that he didn’t have to but that I thought he should stay there on her first night because she was hoping all of them would. On the way home I asked him if he decided yet and he said he would.

She called and left a message on my cell phone around 6:00 p.m. and said “just wondering where you guys are at, give me a call when you’re on your way here.”

I called her about 8:15 and said “we just got on the road so it will be a while” she sounded kind of bummed.
She said, I just wanted them to hang out with them a little bit before bed.”
I said “oh I’m sorry we didn’t eat until about 6:30 or 7:00 and the kids wanted to swim some more so I just got them dried off and in the van.
I cut it short and sweet, didn’t ask her about her day etc. She has a work phone and don’t like to use a lot of minutes so I usually cut it short but when I said see ya in a little bit she said “Oh, Ok then uhhmmm, alright see ya.
Sounded like she wanted to talk a little, like she was really bored so I called her back and said “are you mad at me?” she said “no that’s alright, I’m glad they had a good time. I’m just walking around doing little things waiting for them to get here, I missed them today”. So I thought maybe she wanted to talk a little so I said “how did everything go today?” she said “ok” I said “did you have any problems?” she just said “no” I waited a second or two then said “ok see you in a little bit”.

Get to her house at 9:30 she came out to greet us, D7 ran up to the house excited, S5 was sleeping, S12 just got out and went inside quietly.
I was transferring bags and stuff to my car and had a couple bags of snacks that my sister gave to the kids and W came back out and I handed her the bags and she said “you can come inside if you want”.
D7 wanted me to see her room……I obliged……….depressing, to say the least.

Oh well her choice right?

Went home, house looked pretty good, not much missing, etc.
Sunday morning, S12 called and asked if I saw his bf around. (next door neighbor) I said I was just talking to his dad and they were leaving for the day, wouldn’t be back till later. He sounded really bummed.
He said “I was going to see if he wanted to come over and hang out” I said “are ya bored?” He said big time, I said “go to the park down the street or see if there’s any kids around there. He said “Ok bye”

W called and left a message on the answering machine about 11:00 or 12:00 “I just wanted to call and let you know that the kids wanted to stay with you tonight so I’ll bring them home around 6 or 7:00 so they will have some time to play with there friends before bed. I called her back about 2 hours later and said “that’s fine”.
Again, it seemed like she wanted to talk more. Either that or they were all just bored.
S12 called 3 other times wanting to know what I was doing……W called about 4:00 and said the kids were getting bored and was it ok to bring them back now…I said “I’m here go ahead and bring em over”.

Kids were happy to be home, W asked “is it ok if I go to the upstairs closet and get some more sheets and pillow cases?”
I said “W you don’t have to ask for your things around here” This is still your house and your welcome to come and go whenever you like weather I’m here or not. I said “I don’t want separation so I’m not separating”…”you are”. I said “I’m not going to change the locks or the garage codes or anything like that.
She cried.
What’s the matter?
This is just so hard.

I said, give it time.

I asked if she wanted to hang out and have a little wine, she said no I’m going to go now. She cried again.
I said you still have some stuff in our closet…..did you want it? Yeah I can take it.
I said “did you go through your boxes downstairs (collectable stuff)?”
No not yet.
Ok, well you can do it anytime.
She came over this morning to sit with the kids until the baby sitter gets there and when I left for work I said have a good day…love you.

Ok, good or bad? I don’t know but I’m doing just fine, I cleaned the whole house on Sunday, got groceries, changed my bedroom around, filled her side of the closet with more of my stuff, moved the living room around, cleaned the light fixtures, weeded around the house,
I wasn’t going to leave everything empty, like her side of the closet, or where she had her dresser. This is for real. I will carry on with my life with her or without her but I won’t LB and when I can I will fill her En’s.
I won't give up.
MB is the best thing thats happened to me in a long time.

What more can I do.


Takes me all day to write on here because I’m at work and getting interrupted every minute so if I stray a little I’m sorry. It’s hard to stay on track here sometimes.


El,
Wow what a post. Thank You for taking the time. I’ve read your entire thread as well and I can see a lot of similarities in there.
I’m glad you explained the “Rocks In A River” thing…I was wondering about that.
You need to add that to your signature line. I don’t have time to address everthing you posted this morning but I wanted to say in addition to the rocks in the river (which I will now use btw) remember that spouses like ours can’t be taken for what they say. A quote that helps me from Lbing and Djing is this.
“Believe ½ of what you see and none of what they say because they are hurting right now and there thoughts are confusing even to them”.
Repeating this to myself helps me a lot and the “rocks in the river” thing will now help me even more.
It takes work, hardest thing I’ve ever done but I’m a worker and I’m here for the long haul.
Hang in there El, I’ll be watching you.
JS

JTodd,
If your still following along here, please give me an update on your situation.
There are so many wise posters on this sight and I think some of them could help your situation greatly. How about starting a thread?
JS

El, and others

Help!

How do I approach telling her I have a plan? She doesn't want to here about a plan because she doesn't want to work on things right now.


Help me with this because i have no idea how to change this. What do I do?

How does your W feel about you spending this money? I know with our finances my W would be mad (I'm sure) because we could use this money for other things.
FS is one of her EN's (I think)wouldn't that be Lbing?

I would pay anything right now. (ANYTHING)
[Little voice in my head] She wont like it.

JS,

I need to ask you something first.

It's unclear to me whether your W has moved about because she felt she missed out on some early adult independence or if she doesn't love you anymore?

When I think it's about her need for independence I get a little torqued because she's neglecting her responsiblities. Her commitments. Sure I validate her feelings and realize she feels what she feels but WHY DOES SHE NEED TO MOVE OUT TO GAIN THAT BACK? If there weren't children involved I believe I could excuse it but given the circumstances I would call it immature and selfish.

If it's because of you and the way YOU made her feel then I think it's important that you discuss MB principles. Or principles that teach spouses about Emotional Needs, LoveBusters, POJA and PORH.

You are definitely dancing a fine line between giving her what she wants and enabling her to move on without a fight.

Maybe during a calm and comfortable chat regarding your R you can mention what you know. You'll have to word it carefully so as not to upset the apple cart or turn her completely off.

Let's see:

"While we're on the topic of you and I there's something I would like to communicate to you. It in no way is me trying to push you into something but I'd like to get something out there that I'd like to say. Do you mind if I say it?".

"Uhmmm. OK. Go ahead."

"I know you've said you don't want to hear about any plan regarding working on our M. But what if I said there was a plan out there that have helped hundreds of people regain that in-love experience and rejuvinate their Ms.

I wanted to offer you what I've found. Even if you feel you can never love me again this experience, this plan, would prove very valuable should we have a R with someone else someday.

This plan comes from a Dr who has written several books and sponsors a website. That site has a forum that has proven to be very helpful to me with dozens of helpful people. It has helped me make some changes. Changes I plan on continuing to work on forever.

I realize you may not be ready for this right now. But once you're settled and we start to discuss where do we go from here maybe we can discuss this plan somemore?.

That's all I have to say for right now unless you want to know more. Thanks for listening.".

I don't know JS. Maybe you could put this in a letter. Still face-to-face communication with some humbleness, kindness, genuine concern and obvious desire to make things work will go a long ways.

Hey MyAlias,

I wish I knew the answer to this. It seems to me that she is really confused right now herself. I honestly don't think she has the answer to this but who knows?

Nobody seems to be behind her on all of this (family, friends) but they know that it is something she feels she has to do. I asked her about a week ago if I was still in her heart and she said “Yeah somewhere”.
What does that tell you? Tells me nothing really.

I am starting to see where I haven’t really done anything wrong over the last few years other than not giving her more help around the house. I mean, I see where I LB’d. She has told people before that she wants to take “real” vacations and have money etc. Most of them said that that is a little unrealistic given that we have a nice house, three kids, newer van, etc.
Most people get to that point after there kids get a little older and a little more money.

Please…someone explain this to me too.
I see you shouting Mya, I feel like screaming too. My friends, family and the neighbors have all stated this too. How can she do this to her kids?
They know her too and they are still at a loss. One of our neighbors talked to her last night before I got home and he told me later that he said “I just want you to know that we (he and his wife) don’t understand why your doing this but that we still love you and we always will and we just wanted you to know this”.
He said she just teared up and said ok thanks.

I really want to get this ball rolling too.

I think counseling would do her a world of good. I suggested this for her a while back and she said no. I said not marriage counseling but just personal counseling. Her mother suggested this to her a while back as well and she said no.
I want to yell at her and tell her to open her damn eyes (things I would have said and done before MB) (not good I know)
This is how I did things in the past (“fathering her”) You need to do this, you need to do that, you shouldn’t do that, you shouldn’t be that way.

Doesn’t matter how I see myself its what she has saw all of these years. Her mom said W has a lot of resentment because I didn’t want to help her before on the marriage and now I want to help and she’s not willing to work on it now.

She has always been a wonderful, protective mom but now it’s like she don’t want to be that person anymore.


I like what you wrote.

I think I'm going to write a letter using your words today and give it to her tonight. I’d rather write it out then talk because emotions always seem to get in the way when we are one on one. Maybe I’ll have her read it in front of me and ask her questions on it. What do you think?

Thanks for the great ideas.

JS

You've stated what others have thought. What do YOU think about this? And what have you communicated to your W?

Heh, I have a very nice house, 3 kids, a newer van, brand new sedan. Yet I'd like to go on 'real' vacations and have money. It's a concern and troublespot for me in my life. The only thing that comes from my W that may put a stop to that from happening is her talk of having more kids. Otherwise we're a partnership in trying to figure out how we can do things like take 'real' vacations. Gifts, including vacations, are considered to be one of Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages. Are you overlooking this desire she has? Have you tried to make something happen in that area for her? Or do you just shut her down saying it's improbable?

Just want to make sure you aren't LBing here.



Well I've struggled with this myself too. I have a tough times sometimes communicating so my message is understood. Many times face-to-face conversations would veer off where I wanted them to go and I never really felt my main point of the talk was ever communicated properly.

So I started using letters. They worked to some extent but I think a lot gets lost in the translation. It's hard to decipher tone from written words unless of course you describe the tone it should be read.

In your case I think your W will put her "I've been fathered/controlled by him for too long" spin on it and she may dig in her heels and ignore your true message. You aren't trying to tell her what to do. You are only making suggestions of something you feel may prove helpful. She should still be left with a choice.

This is why I think face to face would be best. Let her see your flexibility, vulnerability, humbleness, humility, and still strong desire to be with her. A lot can be said with a look ... ya know?

If you do decide to write the letter make sure you emphasize the point that you are only suggesting ideas and in no way have any expectation of her following through with one of them. She needs to see she's left a choice and won't be punished if she decides to say no.

Also don't ask her questions. If she wants to ask questions let her and answer best you can. But don't go poking around. You're planting a small seed. Let it settle in. If it comes up later ask her then if she has given it any thought and what did she think.

We can discuss what to say should it come up later or if she asks questions now if you feel you need more coaching. You may want to think about what she may ask so you're somewhat prepared and don't wing it too much.

Feel free to quote me in a letter as much as you'd like.

If you do write the letter we can always proof it for you first. Unless you think you can do it without LBing.

Mya,

I shut her down and said we can’t afford it. I guess I never saw the real importance of all of that. I mean, I have things I want too but I gave up things when I had kids because I wanted kids and now I’m happy with that life. I’ve always had motorcycles and I’d like to get another one someday but I’d rather do things with the kids for now. I have a long life to pursue other interests but the kids will only be at home for a short time before moving on with there lives.
.Big Lber here. Never really listened to her. I was just getting by and not filling any EN’s etc. I shut down because I didn’t want to hear how she was unhappy, so I just lived, but now I’m seeing that existing isn’t living. I was wrong for this and I have told her that I was wrong. I shouldn’t have ignored things for so long.

Haven't written anything yet. I was sort of thinking like you and wanting to talk about it rather than writing it.
I agree.
I'm not sure she will ask any questions at this point, she's not going to be to eager to discuss this but I like the idea you had regarding bringing it up to her.
I really do need to get something started again (the right way this time)
I'm not sure I told you but back in march or april when she told me she still wanted to leave, I argued about marriage counceling and she said no and instead of listening to her I yelled and told her to listen to me because I knew what I was talking about.
I messed up in the past so now its hard foe her to trust me when I want to talk.

I really like El's personel reminder..."rocks in the river"
This helps when discussuing things now.

I get mad because I want things my way, I want her to work on the M, I want her to see my point, I want her to know I can change, I want her to believe me. It drives me crazy that she feels like she can't trust me to change.We talked about it before but I never knew my marriage was going to end over it or that she was going to leave me. If I knew that then I would have worked on things back then. You know (hindsight).

I know its bad and I don't know whats going to happen.
I guess I'm hoping she has a plan, Like stay gone for X amount of time and then go back and work on the M.
I don't know Mya.

Nobody knows, Her mom is coming in this weekend to visit her and see her new place.
Maybe she will give her good advice. I thought about calling her mom but I think I'll just wait and see what happens and after she's gone maybe she will call me or something.

I need to do something, I guess I'll prepare for how to talk to her a little about MBing.

Not sure if I'll do it tonight or what.

Her dad was over on Saturday to help her move her things and they were struggling with a dresser and one of my neighbors came down to help and when W went in the house nieghbor asked her dad, "did you guys want to come down and get that chair and clothes dryer while you were here?"
Her dad--(frustrated)"I dont know what the he!! she's doing and I don't think she knows either"

I called her dads house and left a message for her sister about a prescription I had and her dads wife called me back and wanted to talk.
She said she "didn't know what W was thinking and why she would do this and that W's dad wasn't very happy about her choices right now eithrt" she said W's dad felt bad about coming to my house and helping her because he didn't want me to be there (becasue he felt so bad) and i told fil's wife that they were always welcome at my house and that this was all W's doing and not there problem.


Man I'm tired. I talk all day and never say a word worth listening to. Maybe that W's problem with me lol.
Ramble,ramble,ramble
JS

JS,

Despite what you might think or what everyone else might think you have to respect your W and her decision. She obviously felt this was necessary and so you have to just let this take its course.

Do what you can to plant a seed or throw rocks in the river. Hopefully she'll come back to you when she becomes less confused.



I'm hoping the anger stays within yourself and you don't present it your W in any shape or form. You can let your disappointment show but don't do it using anger as the method of presentation. Find a better way to communicate your frustrations and sadness.

This morning W came over to watch the kids untill babysitter gets there and she said we need to talk tonight with the kids or maybe just S12 regarding a schedule of when they will be here with you and when they are at my house.

Now when she got her place she told me and S12 that there would be no schedule (S12 asked "do you have a schedule?") she said "No, you kids can stay with me or stay with dad whenever you want to.

Now she is seeing where the kids don't want to go to her house because they get to bored.
No friends, no cable tv, no video games, no pool, nothing to do but sit there and be bored.

All there freinds (and they have many) live by me and when thay are at W's house they keep saying "I want to play with so and so".
I want to go home.

How do I handle this without Lbing?

JS

My first response is to say that she made her bed. Now let her lay in it. She stated no schedule to the kids. If they get bored at her house she could think of ways to remedy that.

I'm just not sure how much you should help her. Don't want to LB yet don't want to enable this separation. I don't know JS. Best wait to get more responses from others here.

Good Morning All.

W called me at work yesterday and told me she had the kids (2 younger ones, oldest didn't want to go) and that S12 didn't want to go.

I said "I get paid tomorrow and I have a few dollars left over, you want me to give you a few dollars so you and the kids can walk down the street and get icecream tonight?"
"I thought it would give you guys something to do tonight".

"Yeah that would be ok, I'm just pulling in the driveway".

JS I'm right around the corner (I go past her street on the way home from work) so I'll be there in a minute.

Not much said, talked to the kids, took a quick look at her window air conditioner,(not working right) said by to the kids and headed towards the door.
She followed me to the door and I just said "ok see ya later"..........wonder if she wanted a hug? she just stood there then said ok bye.

Oh well, I called her about 8:00 and said "did you guys go down the street yet?"
Yep we just got back and S5 is in the tub".
Ok, well me and S12 were going to get icecream and were wondering if you were still down there.
W--"does he want to spend the night?"
S12--No
I told him that when we got home there wouldn't be anything to do and he said "yeah maybe"
I told him that she would bring them all back to my house in the morning before she goes to work so the babysitter can watch them and he could be with his friends.
S12 "no I don't want to get up that early.

I told her "he doesnt want to get up that early".
W---"thats ok I'll see him tomorrow.

Called her back about 9:00 and said "I just wanted to talk to you a little bit. I miss our conversations and I was doing some stuff around the house and kept seeing things that reminded me of you."

I said *shaking voice* " I miss you so much and I love you".

W---no response.
I then just changed the subject and asked her about work etc. and told her what has been going on around the neighborhood.

Her answers were quite short so I just said, "well I just called to say ilu and i miss you.
Have a good night.
W---You to, by.

My question this morning if you wish to participate is.

Should I send the following letter?
What changes should be made?
Any thought on the above exchange?
Am I enableing her behavier? Probably huh.

Oh yeah, here's the letter.
Almost forgot.



Thanks

JS, I'm feeling a little hedgy today.

I thought the letter looked alright. I just wonder if right now is the best time to present it?

Maybe you should let her settle in a little. Let her feel the sting (if there is any) of living in a different place. It appears it's already becoming a conflict because the kids appear, at first, to prefer their 1st home.

As always please wait to hear from others.

Mya,

Good thoughts...I'm in no hurry to send it.

I have been following your sit. Sorry, no advice hear.
What Pieta said was powerfull, has me rethinking things.


I wonder if this holds true for a lot of women.
JS

JS:

Back off.

She went to all this effort to move out. She is not going to come back tomorrow no matter what you say or do. Too much loss of face for her to admit defeat that quickly.

Stop pushing yourself on her. She is so desperate for freedom she moved out of the house even though she can't afford it financially. You constantly reminding her how much you love her isn't going to help her feel safe and free.

If she is going to return to you, she is only going to do so when she feels like it is her choice. Her free choice. Not a reaction to pressure from you. The more you push, the more she will resist.

I know you fear that she will think you don't care if you back away. That is where you need to work on calibration, style, tone, body language, etc. The key is to communicate that you want her to be happy. And if she needs to be on her own to be happy, then you want that for her even if you don't uinderstand why she wants it or how it could make her happy. The whole point is to reassure her that you do NOT think that you know her better than she knows herself. That you do not think you know what is best for her. Or that she doesn't.

It is OK to communicate that you are unhappy with her choice or that you would not make that choice. But still, you understand she is entitled to make the choice for herself.

Then you pray like crazy that she realizes, sooner rather than later, what a horrendously poor choice she is making. But SHE needs to reach the conclusion on her own. If you keep pushing it, she will refuse to accept it. No matter how true it is.

So no more extra money for ice cream to make it happier, easier, better for her to be on her own. She wanted this. Let her experience what it is like.

Hold,
Thank You for this post.

Thanks Hoti,
I think she has already realized that this was a bad (tough) choice (maybe not?) but she probably won't except that for a while now. Who knows, maybe never and I see what you mean by it being her decision and not mine.

Besides, I've said before that I want her back because she wants me back not because she's broke or missing the kids.
I only hope that if she does come back, that she will want to subscribe to MB practices but either way me being here is helping me.

I think you conveyed all of this to me before but thanks again for the reminder.

I'm doing pretty good about not calling her, I used to call her everyday at work but now I haven't called her at work since she left me. Maybe once or twice for something.
I haven't been calling her at night to talk either except yesterday.

She picked up the kids before I got home and wasn't there when I got home so I guess I just lost it.

I'm really not doing that bad myself but I still feel so bad for her (and the kids) (its really starting to show) and I know, I know, I'm supposed to just let her have her way but it hurts me to see her hurting and like a *good daddy* I want to rescue her. WRONG THING TO DO.

I'm getting it, a little slow but still getting it.

About the letter, I wont send it right now but I will save it.
Maybe after a while I can send it.
we'll see.

I went home for lunch today (like every Thursday) and saw the kids, I can see it in there faces...there confused, I think, maybe hurt...I dont know.
My D7 usually has a mile of questions when I come home for lunch. Can I come to work with you?
Can we do something tonight?
Can we have a fire?
She just sat in the chair outside when I drove up and I was talking to the babysitter and S12 and S5 and after I finished she just walked up real slow (with no emotion on her face) ( a first I think) and gave me a big hug. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Totally not the same D7

S12 is hurting too----they all are.....I can see it in there faces.
I pretty sure there are times when they see it in my face too. I'm trying.

I feel like they are looking for me to give them all of the answers, everytime they look at me its with this confused look on there faces.

This is hard, very hard.

How does she get through this?
She has been the best wife, mother, house keeper, worker and person I have ever been with.

She loves her kids more than anything in this world......how can she live without them?

How can she do this?

I guess the answers are in my earlier posts huh?

I'm going back to the beginning...maybe I can find more answers there.


Thank You

I’m hurting real bad.

This weekend was hard. She picked up the kids after work on Friday. S5 cried, didn’t want to go, said “I want to stay here with daddy and friends. I left the room. In the past I would’ve tried to calm him and reassure him but I’m not doing that anymore, it’s not easy but I think she needs to do this herself.
She just had a blank look on her face the whole time. She didn’t try to reassure him or anything. I followed them outside and again he was crying and carrying on and said “I don’t want to go with you” “I don’t like your rules”. She just tied his shoes and didn’t say anything more to him.
I went back inside the house, she came back in to get something and said “do you want to tell the kids goodbye?” I said “yeah I can go back out and tell them again”. She said “oh I didn’t know you already told them”. I went out and S5 was sitting in his car seat and still crying and I told them bye and have fun this weekend and reminded them that we were going to my sisters house on Sunday to swim. S5 just kept looking at me with a pitiful face and tears. D7 was excited to go (she loves attention) I gave her a kiss and said see ya on Sunday, She said “I want you to go with us and spend the night”. I said “I know”.
S12 said hey Friend is at his dads this weekend (he just got home) he asked W if friend could come with and W said “not now lets go” he was bummed.

Long lonely sad weekend for me, I cried a little, talked with the neighbors a little. There all on the fence as to weather she will be back or not.
They all want her to come back and they think she is a fool for leaving but I think they understand why she left. They just know how much I want her back and the changes I have made and it makes them feel sad too.

I sent her mom an e-mail on Friday here it is.

Her reply

Hope I’m not being pushy. mil knows I love W so I hope she knows it not just a desperate attempt. W hides a lot of her feelings and doesn’t really let it all out (so to speak) and I’m not sure everyone is getting the whole picture but if mil calls I’ll let her know more about W.

Sunday morning W was going to bring me the van and return kids bikes etc. and then trade me cars so I could take kids and S12 friend to my sisters house in the van. She called and said the van won’t start. Kids left the doors open. I went over there to jump start it and it wouldn’t start. I was very mad and W could see I was mad. She said nevermind you’ll just have to take your car and I said I can’t take S12’s friend (4 seater).

She leaned in the car window to tell kids goodbye and told S12 she’s sorry about friend. He just sat there, obviously upset, and shaking his head in disbelief.
She told me bye and I said “wait I wanted to see the stuff you got (furniture from garage sale). She showed me all of the stuff as well as some stuff her mom brought her. I said “can I ask how much you paid?” she was quiet for a minute and I said that’s ok, I shouldn’t have asked that and she said “no that’s alright, I paid $100.00, I’ll just pay coworker so much a week.
I said “wow that sounds like a real good deal”. She said Sorry about the van. I said “Oh that’s alright, that stuff happens”. I said “that’s been our luck lately huh lol”. She said “yeah that’s what it seems like”.
I said “can you get your dad to come and help you out?” She said “I’ll just call girlfriends husband (they live around the corner) and he’ll check it out. (he’s done a lot of work for us in the past) She said “how much is a battery?” I said about 50 or 60 bucks”. She said ok.
On the way out of town I called her and said, are you going to be able to get some help?.
She said “don’t worry about it, It’s my problem. I said “no it’s not your problem it’s our problem”. She said “thank you I’ll get it taken care of and call you if I have any questions”.

She did call me back later and said “ I just wanted you to know that gf;s H came over and put a charger on it and it started right up and its staying charged so everything is ok.
I said “good deal……maybe our luck is changing lol”.

I called last night because 2 little ones said they wanted to stay at her house tonight.
I said kids want to stay at your house tomorrow night and they wanted to say goodnight to you.
D7 then said “wait I wanted to tell mommy something else”.
D7 said “mommy I want you to come over here and say goodnight”. DOH!
I told W “I’m sorry I didn’t know she was going to say that. W just laughed and said “that’s ok, that’s just D7.

W came over this morning to wait for babysitter about 10 minutes before I leave for work and we made some small talk, nothing serious just chat.


What am I doing?

I’m not sure if when she wants to talk about us that I won’t LB. I’ve had no practice and I’m pretty scared that if she does talk to me I wont do good.
I’m scared she will find someone else.
I want to hug her and show her how much I love her.
I know this is wrong but it’s so hard not to do this.
I guess writing this helps me calm down. Sorry for the long post.

How do I get back on track? Reread Holds post?

I need help in leaving her alone and letting go of her confusion. (something star*fish told me to do long ago.


JS