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#1836779 03/05/07 08:59 PM
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Some good old posts to browse through...

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[color:"red"] Trueheart's Letter [/color]

[color:"blue"] Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.

I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.

The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well.

They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you?

We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty.

You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.

I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water.

We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok.

What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!

The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A.

I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us.

You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all.

The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family.

It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you.

The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life".

I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was.

I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter.

They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!!

Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them??

By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life.

You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process.

What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage.

They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand.

They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.

I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write *edit* There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!

*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*

Truehear [/color]

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[color:"red"] Misapplication of Plan A ... by Distressed [/color]

[color:"blue"] I may be opening up a can of worms, but I read so many posts from people struggling with the implementation of Plan A that I thought I'd open up a philosophical discussion. Before expressing my opinions, I need to be clear that I myself did do Plan A for about 18 months in total. So when I'm critical, accept that I'm criticizing my own behavior in the hopes that others can learn. Here goes.
I am a great believer in the Harley methodology and it helped me work through a horrible situation. However, I am convinced that there is no greater misunderstanding and misapplication of techniques than in the betrayed's use of Plan A. FAR, FAR too many betrayed's seem to believe that if they stop love busting, go to great efforts to meet the wayward's needs (while the affair continues), and don't bring up OR talks or any issues, their spouses will eventually come back. While the spouses sometimes do come back during Plan A, it is my strong belief that their coming back is much more related to the natural death of their affairs than any action the betrayed is taking.

Plan A serves one narrowly defined purpose only. Its purpose is for the betrayed spouse to demonstrate for the wayward spouse the behavior he/she is capable of should the wayward ever decide to return to the marriage. That's it. It does not and cannot be used to: 1) win the spouse back from the OP, 2) recreate love from the wayward while the affair continues by meeting emotional needs, 3) unconditionally demonstrate love and self-sacrifice from the betrayed, or 4) create guilt within the wayward.

While the positive aspects of Plan A are useful, they come with a very high negative cost if it goes on too long. The backlash to the betrayed's self-esteem grows over time as disrespectful behavior from the wayward is not only tolerated, but often rewarded. The betrayed forgets what it's like to respect him/herself, and just accepts whatever crumbs the wayward offers. Worse still, the betrayed remains so engrossed in the effort to meet the emotional needs of the wayward, that they're not focusing on developing a separate life. This doesn't always happen, but it happens far more often than it should.

I believe the Harley's are frequently misunderstood about Plan A. Their intent is for a SHORT Plan A, just to demonstrate the changes. Normally, they recommend going to Plan B at separation or after just a few months of Plan A. Plan B is almost always necessary according to the Harley's. Their advice is clear, but many people do not apply it as advised. Plan A goes way too far.

Unfortunately, it's best to accept that once someone decides to leave, whether they choose to come back is completely out of the control of the betrayed. The primary influences on the wayward's behavior are some combination of the state of the affair and the character of the wayward, not the actions of the betrayed. That's why Harley says go to Plan B and stay there. It's basically designed to allow a maximum waiting period for the affair to end. [/color]

Trix #1836786 03/06/07 10:29 AM
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Quote
Here's one of my old favorites:
2ofakind's:WS who needs to find themselves

[color:"blue"]"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.

Many of my dear friends here no that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.

So, as a public service to these unfortunate souls I have composed "Finding yourself for Dummies"

First, finding yourself...
1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.

2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.

3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.

4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.

Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.

Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.

Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.

Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.

Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.

Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"

Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.

If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.

Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.

I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.

[/color]

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Had to save this one by JustLearning:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MoM,

Been reading along and nodding as you get great advice from Pep and others. I now know why Pep started her other threading asking men about how they handle things.

You said something a few pages back that stuck with me and I wanted to address with you.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

me thinking again...but...there's not really any "time" that's sufficient for having an affair, no sufficient restitution is there? but I understand you're referring to the recovery work...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No sufficient restitution???? Oh! yes there is and that is where everyone is getting on you. Perhaps a more direct approach is required. In the recent posts to this thread you have become aware that your H still has issues with your A. Actually, what he has is issues with himself and how he sees himself, very normal really.

You remaining in the guilt phase and not recovering is a very selfish act really. Hate to be blunt, but you are focused on yourself more than on your H or family. How do you change the focus? You get a plan. You forgive yourself, and you start to really focus on your H and family. Your JOB is to get this marriage and this family back on track, and rebuild this marriage into something better than it was. You cannot do that contemplating your navel and emotionally beating yourself up.

Restitution comes from remorse not guilt. Restitution requires action and that means you have to become happier with yourself. Your H already told you he does not need any more "I'm sorries". He needs a happy W. He needs his best friend. He needs something he has never had, but needs now. (and that is to open up and tell you his feelings, very very hard to do, even with someone you trust).

If the truth be known, what is really bothering him now has more to do with how he sees himself, than how he sees you. But, as Pep pointed out who can he turn to. If you are still hurting, beating yourself up, he KNOWS he cannot turn to you, and frankly he has told you that in many ways. He knows he cannot lean on someone who is hurting themselves, especially if he loves them, as he does you.

If you want to make restitution, forgive yourself, and become someone you H could lean on, trust, speak with, and know that they are strong enough to handle some of his pain.

I don't even know if this book is still in print. I ran across it on a trip years ago. The title struck me as I am a male. It was entitled "Men made easy" by an author of the last name of "Oh". If memory serves me correctly. It is sort of a 12 step approach to dealing with men. Sort of simplified, but actually more accurate than I care to admit.

Find it if you can. It addresses communications, and how to get your H how to begin to discuss his feelings, etc. It is short and simple, I think I read it in an hour.

Mom, you need to understand, part of healing this marriage is forgiving yourself. Then you can help your H heal. He has forgiven you, he has remained with you. He loves you. Isn't it time to trust your H and realize his forgiveness of you was NOT a mistake. He knew what he was doing, what was in his heart and YOURS.

You see in my mind your failure to forgive yourself, is really a DJ of your H and yes of your spiritual teaching as well. Your H knows he wants you in his life. His real problem right now is whether he is good enough for you. He has doubts and your lack of forgiveness of yourself, feeds those doubts.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

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[color:"red"] another homerun [/color]

[color:"blue"] Dear Time,

I'm a BW.

I wanted to weigh in here on the letter idea.

About two or three months ago, I was feeling very low. It was about the one year anniversary of d-day, combined with the holidays, and his cancer surgery anniversary as well. I was about as low as low can go.

I was thinking of walking away from the whole mess.

I BEGGED FWH to just tell me 3 things he liked about me. Just list 3 things on a sticky note, 3 things that were "okay" about me, that he didn't find "repulsive" or "disgusting" about me (see what I mean about feeling low about myself????).

He was in shock!

I thought it was because I asked him to write it down. So I said, "Could you at least, right now, just NAME ONE THING, so I can hang onto that?"

He wouldn't name one thing. Just shook his head, and remained quiet, with his eyes looking at the floor.

I was devastated.

He left the room, and I cried. He couldn't get past the fact that I thought he didn't love me, didn't think he could find even one thing likeable about me, and that I had disregarded his whole year of efforts to show me his remorse over the affair. That I had ignored his efforts, had not seen his changes, and that he had NO chance to fix things.

I was devastated because I was just so depressed that I was feeling worthless and could not see his side at all.

I thought we were NOT communicating.

But he did hear what I said. I was sitting there focused so much on myself, my pain, my devastation, and FWH was listening - and I thank God for that. I thank my FWH for his ability to see my pain and do what he did.

He went to his computer and started on a list.

He came back about 15 minutes later, and told me that he couldn't write it fast enough to make it "okay" tonight. That he would just have to hold me for now, and dry my tears, but he needed time to think about the list. But that he WOULD write my list. I focused only on the fact that he had to THINK to come up with something he liked about me (you see, I was in so much pain, I still thought he just didn't even like me). I was wrong.

Turns out, the list was not a list at all. It was a love letter with three things he loved about me. Each paragraph started with "I love you because..." and he finished each paragraph with so much more than just a list.

The last sentence said that he had trouble keeping the list to just three items. That he had trouble listing the "top three", because there were so many that could have been the top three. And that anytime I wanted, he would add to the list.

I have not needed him to add to the list.

Because he has been there for me, and has done everything I have needed him to do to help me through this mess.

So yes, write the letter.

And tell him why you love him. Tell him the best things about him - about who he is INSIDE, what he DOES that makes you love him.

Because he needs to know that you see it.

And, because he needs to know that you REMEMBER it.

And because he needs to remember it himself.

And because YOU need to remember it, too.

SB
[/color]

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I read this on another site and I've been given permission to use it here. It is how a BS got the truth from her WH.

She (and he) wanted to recover but she felt she wasn't getting the "whole" story. He didn't understand WHY she needed it so bady. So she did this.

"I tell him this:

"Imagine a police officer holding a briefcase rings your doorbell and tells you "BS" is dead.

You ask: "What? How?"

The police officer says: "It doesn't matter. All you need to know is she is dead".

You say: "But when? Where? Who caused it? Did she suffer?"

The police officer says: "Sir, I have all that information right here in my briefcase. But you don't need to know any of it. It may hurt you. You may cry. It will be painful. You will get angry. All you need to know is BS is gone."

Her WH told her all the remaining information.

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Loco Wisdom

> 1. Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me,
> for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either. Just
> pretty much
> leave me the ****** alone.
>
> 2. It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to steal your
> neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
>
> 3. Sex is like air-it's not important unless you aren't getting any.
>
> 4. If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of
> car payments.
>
> 5. Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
> That way, when you criticize them, you're at least mile away,
> and you have their shoes.
>
> 6. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
>
> 7. Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish,
> and he will sit in your boat and drink your beer all day.
>
> 8. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was
> worth it.
>
> 9. Don't worry-It only seems kinky the first time.
>
> 10. There are two theories about arguing with women/men. Neither one
> works.
>
> 11. Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
>

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PERSONAL POWER

As I look back over my time here, I consider this one of the GREATEST GIFTS that I received from this forum.

I remain here for that sustenance.

The POWER helps me in my MARRIAGE to this day.

It weathers me through CONFLICTS with my H..yes CONFLICTS from which I used to FLEE..I walk head on into them and SPEAK MY TRUTH...and I see my H valuing ME and RESPECTING ME...AHHHH...PERSONAL POWER....I LOVE IT!!!

Becoming convicted to WORK YOUR PLAN will lead you HERE to where I am...

It has to be YOUR PLAN..not about HIM...

It has to be how YOU WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE YOURSELF INTO A BETTER PERSON...

Then THE PLAN is REAL, SINCERE AND MEANINGFUL to YOU and that will be communicated to your WS and others....

Starting with the FOCUS ON YOURSELF prepares you for PLAN B which takes all the PERSONAL STRENGTH and CONVICTION a PERSON CAN BEAR...

It is hard to PERSEVERE AND ENDURE during PLAN B..it involves WITHDRAWAL from your WS and RECREATING YOUR LIFE...it did for me...

Yes, Plan B for me was ONLY 3 MONTH or so...but THE MENTAL PREPARATION, SOUL SEARCHING and LIFE CHANGES STARTED WAY BEFORE THEN on D-DAY...

I decided to CHANGE INTO THE NEW ME that I am today and have not turned back...and will not turn back...I WILL NOT BE THAT PERSON EVER EVER AGAIN...

I have a sense of PERSONAL POWER and PURPOSE..my H knows for sure that I WILL AND CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT HIM..I am certainly ENHANCED BY HIS PRESENCE IN MY LIFE..but also HIS LIFE IS ENHANCED BY ME....

I felt compelled to say this this morning...

I am so thankful for getting to this place...

It is VITAL FOR YOU GUYS..especially MY GIRLS..to get HERE, TOO...

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Just mentioning that alliteration in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing!

anywho ... the following is written by Mr Wondering .... and I liked it too much to have it buried on another thread

here 'tis:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
On the other hand, I have a sneeking suspicion that 1 or more of you may be other than you say you are. Celt, in particular, strikes me as potentially a full blown WS, a WS that is now divorced or an OP. Come on, a year recovered BS that thinks exposure is a bad thing, continual posts on every exposure thread here debating intricacies which are quite clear and is proud of the fact he "saved" his wife's reputation by not exposing her affair. I'm a BS that didn't expose and "saved" my wifes reputation but WE (the Mrs. and I) see absolutely clearly I should have exposed at least to her parents and the single OM's family. It would likely have cut weeks off her 3 month affair. Accordingly, we now consistently encourage others to do FULL exposure in accordance with MB principles. In my opinion, Celt's posts appear specifically designed to stir the pot, distract us from our intended purpose (of helping real couples afflicted by infidelty), play on newbie BS fears, and pointedly attack Melody Lane as she IS one of the many but perhaps the most outspoken "affair buster" superhero. I don't know if this is a concerted organized attack on MB or a personal vendetta against Melody Lane and/or MB...but I suspect it, nonetheless. Sfjaj, a few others and even you Cookie I suspect. Not an accusation, just a suspicion. But then again, I am a conspiracist. I'd investigate myself if I thought I'd find anything.
On the other hand, we have recently had a handful of WW's show up. Last June when I arrived I only saw a few WW's regularly posting and when a new WW arrived they were usually an island of dissent/fogginess and rarely got support and thus rarely swam against the stream for long on the board. However, with so many arriving at nearly the same time the foggy have been recently embolden to post their opinions and advice regardless of the fact they are mistaken and contrary to solid MB principles. Notice I am not saying they are wrong, IMO they are just not of the proper perspective YET to internalize the brillance of the MB program and ALL its components so they question the PROFESSIONALLY designed, TRIED and TESTED narrow MB path. It doesn't help that they have since been told that their "opinions" no matter how fogged out are somehow valuable and should be respected. I guess we all do really in essence respect the opinion; but, recognize and point it out for what it is, foggy, so that newbies are hopefully not distracted. We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering

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The Six Deadly Symptoms

A young couple I know, Jim and Helen, have been together for just over a year. Helen, a professor of literature at a community college, has huge brown eyes and a broad, perfect smile. She was introduced to Jim at a party, and Jim seemed delightful. Tall and soft-spoken, he's a successful songwriter. The couple share a great affection for each other. However, for Helen the ease of being with Jim has been draining away. In fact, their relationship has progressed through the six stages of emotional blackmail.

To give you a clear idea of what the six emotional blackmail symptoms look and feel like, let's walk through a simplified version of a conflict that came up between Jim and Helen. You'll notice that some of the symptoms describe Jim's behavior, and some focus on Helen's.

1: A demand. Jim wants something from Helen. He suggests to her that they've been spending so much time with each other, they might as well move in together. "I practically live here already," he tells her. "Let's just make it official." Her apartment is huge, and half his things are there, he adds, so it'll be a simple transition.

Sometimes blackmailers don't verbalize what they want as clearly as Jim did, but instead make us figure it out. Jim might make his point indirectly, perhaps sulking after a friend's wedding, then letting Helen extract from him, "I wish we could be closer; I get so lonely sometimes," and eventually saying that he'd like to move in.

At first blush, Jim's suggestion sounds loving, and not like a demand at all, but it soon becomes clear that he is set in his course of action and is not willing to discuss or change it.

2: Resistance. Helen feels uncomfortable about Jim's moving in and expresses her unwillingness by telling him that she's not ready for that kind of change in the relationship. She cares deeply for him, but she wants him to have his own place.

If she were a less direct person, Helen might resist in other ways. She could withdraw and become less affectionate, or tell him that she's decided to repaint and he'll have to take his things home until the job is done. However she expresses her resistance, the message is clear. The answer is no.

3: Pressure. When he sees that Helen isn't giving him the response he wants, Jim does not try to understand her feelings. Rather, he pushes her to change her mind. At first he acts as if he's willing to talk over the issue with her, but the discussion becomes one-sided and turns into a lecture. He transforms Helen's statement of resistance into a statement of her deficiencies, and he casts his own desires and demands in the most positive terms: "I only want what's best for us. I only want to give to you. When two people love each other, they should want to share their lives. Why don't you want to share yourself with me? If you weren't so self-centered, you could open up your life a little."

Then he turns on the charm and asks, "Don't you love me enough to want me here all the time?" Another blackmailer might turn up the pressure by adamantly insisting that his moving in would improve the relationship and bring them closer. Whatever the style, pressure will come into play, though it may be cloaked in benevolent terms--for example, Jim's letting Helen know how much her reluctance is paining him.

4: Threats. As Jim continues to hit a wall of resistance, he lets Helen know there will be consequences if she doesn't give him what he wants. Blackmailers may threaten to cause us pain or unhappiness. They may let us know how much we're making them suffer. They may also try to tantalize us with promises of what they'll give us, or how much they'll love us, if we go along with them. Jim works on Helen with veiled threats: "If you can't make this kind of commitment to me after all we've meant to each other, maybe it's time for us to see other people." He doesn't directly threaten to end the relationship, but the implication is impossible for Helen to miss.

5: Compliance. Helen doesn't want to lose Jim, and tells herself that perhaps she's been wrong to say he can't move in, despite her continuing uneasy feelings. She and Jim only talk superficially about her concerns, and Jim makes no attempt to allay them. A couple of months later, Helen stops resisting, and Jim moves in.

6: Repetition. Jim's victory ushers in a quiescent period. Now that he's gotten his way, he removes the pressure, and the relationship appears to stabilize. Helen is still uncomfortable about how things have turned out, but she's also relieved to have the pressure off and to regain Jim's love and approval. Jim has seen that pressuring Helen and making her feel guilty is a sure way to get what he wants. And Helen has seen that the fastest way to end Jim's pressure tactics is to give in. The groundwork is laid for a pattern of demands, pressure and capitulation.

These six characteristics are at the heart of the emotional blackmail syndrome, and we will be returning to them and exploring them more deeply throughout this book.

The author is Susan Forward.... has anyone read this one?

Pep

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Long - But worth reading. Makes some very good points pointing out the DIFFERENCES between men and women and A.


Beyond Betrayal: Life After Infidelity

By: Frank Pittman
Summary: Not all affairs are alike; some are even accidental.

Hour after hour, day after day in my office I see men and women who have been screwing around. They lead secret lives, as they hide themselves from their marriages. They go through wrenching divorces, inflicting pain on their children and their children's children. Or they make desperate, tearful, sweaty efforts at holding on to the shreds of a life they've betrayed. They tell me they have gone through all of this for a quick thrill or a furtive moment of romance. Sometimes they tell me they don't remember making the decision that tore apart their life: "It just happened." Sometimes they don't even know they are being unfaithful. (I tell them: "If you don't know whether what you are doing is an infidelity or not, ask your spouse.") From the outside looking in, it is insane. How could anyone risk everything in life on the turn of a screw? Infidelity was not something people did much in my family, so I always found it strange and noteworthy when people did it in my practice. After almost 30 years of cleaning up the mess after other people's affairs, I wrote a book describing everything about infidelity I'd seen in my practice. The book was Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy (Norton). I thought it might help. Even if the tragedy of AIDS and the humiliation of prominent politicians hadn't stopped it, surely people could not continue screwing around after reading about the absurd destructiveness of it. As you know, people have not stopped having affairs. But many of them feel the need to write or call or drop by and talk to me about it. When I wrote Private Lies, I thought I knew everything there was to know about infidelity. But I know now that there is even more.

ACCIDENTAL INFIDELITY

All affairs are not alike. The thousands of affairs I've seen seem to fall into four broad categories. Most first affairs are cases of accidental infidelity, unintended and uncharacteristic acts of carelessness that really did "just happen." Someone will get drunk, will get caught up in the moment, will just be having a bad day. It can happen to anyone, though some people are more accident prone than others, and some situations are accident zones.

Many times a young man has started his career as a philanderer quite accidentally when he is traveling out of town on a new job with a philandering boss who chooses one of a pair of women and expects the young fellow to entertain the other. The most startling dynamic behind accidental infidelity is misplaced politeness, the feeling that it would be rude to turn down a needy friend's sexual advances. In the debonair gallantry of the moment, the brazen discourtesy to the marriage partner is overlooked altogether.

Both men and women can slip up and have accidental affairs, though the most accident-prone are those who drink, those who travel, those who don't get asked much, those who don't feel very tightly married, those whose running buddies screw around, and those who are afraid to run from a challenge. Most are men.

After an accidental infidelity, there is clearly the sense that one's life and marriage have changed. The choices are:

1. To decide that infidelity was a stupid thing to do, to confess it or not to do so, but to resolve to take better precautions in the future;

2. To decide you wouldn't have done such a thing unless your husband or wife had let you down, put the blame on your mate, and go home and pick your marriage to death;

3. To notice that lightning did not strike you dead, decide this would be a safe and inexpensive hobby to take up, and do it some more;

4. To decide that you would not have done such a thing if you were married to the right person, determine that this was meant to be, and declare yourself in love with the stranger in the bed.

ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.

MARITAL ARRANGEMENTS

All marriages are imperfect, and probably a disappointment in one way or another, which is a piece of reality, not a license to mess around with the neighbors. There are some marriages that fail to provide a modicum of warmth, sex, sanity, companionship, money. There are awful marriages people can't get all the way into and can't get all the way out of, divorces people won't call off and can't go through, marriages that won't die and won't recover. Often people in such marriages make a marital arrangement by calling in marital aides to keep them company while they avoid living their life. Such practical affairs help them keep the marriage steady but distant. They thus encapsulate the marital deficiency, so the infidel can neither establish a life without the problems nor solve them. Affairs can wreck a good marriage, but can help stabilize a bad one.

People who get into marital arrangements are not necessarily the innocent victims of defective relationships. Some set out to keep their marriages defective and distant. I have seen men who have kept the same mistress through several marriages, arranging their marriages to serve some practical purpose while keeping their romance safely encapsulated elsewhere. The men considered it a victory over marriage; the exploited wives were outraged.

I encountered one woman who had long been involved with a married man. She got tired of waiting for him to get a divorce and married someone else. She didn't tell her husband about her affair, and she didn't tell her affaire about her marriage. She somehow thought they would never find out about one another. After a few exhausting and confusing weeks, the men met and confronted her. She cheerfully told them she loved them both and the arrangement seemed the sensible way to have her cake and eat it too. She couldn't understand why both the men felt cheated and deprived by her efforts to sacrifice their lives to satisfy her skittishness about total commitment.

Some of these arrangements can get quite complicated. One woman supported her house-husband and their kids by living as the mistress of an older married man, who spent his afternoons and weekend days with her and his evenings at home with his own children and his sexually boring wife. People averse to conflict might prefer such arrangements to therapy, or any other effort to actually solve the problems of the marriage.

Unhappily married people of either gender can establish marital arrangements to help them through the night. But men are more likely to focus on the practicality of the arrangement and diminish awareness of any threat to the stability of the marriage, while women are more likely to romanticize the arrangement and convince themselves it is leading toward an eventual union with the romantic partner. Networks of couples may spend their lives halfway through someone's divorce, usually with a guilt-ridden man reluctant to completely leave a marriage he has betrayed and even deserted, and a woman, no matter how hard she protests to the contrary, eternally hopeful for a wedding in the future.

Philandering

Philandering is a predominantly male activity. Philanderers take up infidelity as a hobby. Philanderers are likely to have a rigid and concrete concept of gender; they worship masculinity, and while they may be greatly attracted to women, they are mostly interested in having the woman affirm their masculinity. They don't really like women, and they certainly don't want an equal, intimate relationship with a member of the gender they insist is inferior, but far too powerful. They see women as dangerous, since women have the ability to assess a man's worth, to measure him and find him wanting, to determine whether he is man enough.

These men may or may not like sex, but they use it compulsively to affirm their masculinity and overcome both their homophobia and their fear of women. They can be cruel, abusive, and even violent to women who try to get control of them and stop the philandering they consider crucial to their masculinity. Their life is centered around displays of masculinity, however they define it, trying to impress women with their physical strength, competitive victories, seductive skills, mastery of all situations, power, wealth, and, if necessary, violence. Some of them are quite charming and have no trouble finding women eager to be abused by them.

Gay men can philander too, and the dynamics are the same for gay philanderers as for straight ones: the obvious avoidance of female sexual control, but also preoccupation with masculinity and the use of rampant sexuality for both reassurance and the measurement of manhood. When men have paid such an enormous social and interpersonal price for their preferred sexuality, they are likely to wrap an enormous amount of their identity around their sexuality and express that sexuality extensively.

Philanderers may be the sons of philanderers, or they may have learned their ideas about marriage and gender from their ethnic group or inadvertently from their religion. Somewhere they have gotten the idea that their masculinity is their most valuable attribute and it requires them to protect themselves from coming under female control. These guys may consider themselves quite principled and honorable, and they may follow the rules to the letter in their dealings with other men. But in their world women have no rights.

To men they may seem normal, but women experience them as narcissistic or even sociopathic. They think they are normal, that they are doing what every other real man would do if he weren't such a wimp. The notions of marital fidelity, of gender equality, of honesty and intimacy between husbands and wives seem quite foreign from what they learned growing up. The gender equality of monogamy may not feel compatible to men steeped in patriarchal beliefs in men being gods and women being ribs. Monogamous sexuality is difficult for men who worship Madonnas for their sexlessness and berate Eves for their seductiveness.

Philanderers' sexuality is fueled by anger and fear, and while they may be considered "sex addicts" they are really "gender compulsives" desperately doing whatever they think will make them look and feel most masculine. They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger. If they can get a woman to die for them, like opera composer Giacomo Puccini did in real life and in most of his operas, they feel like a real man.

Female Philanderers

There are female philanderers too, and they too are usually the daughters or ex-wives of philanderers. They are angry at men, because they believe all men screw around as their father or ex-husband did. A female philanderer is not likely to stay married for very long, since that would require her to make peace with a man, and as a woman to carry more than her share of the burden of marriage. Marriage grounds people in reality rather than transporting them into fantasy, so marriage is too loving, too demanding, too realistic, and not romantic enough for them.

I hear stories of female philanderers, such as Maria Riva's description of her mother, Marlene Dietrich. They appear to have insatiable sexual appetites but, on closer examination, they don't like sex much. They do like power over men, and underneath the philandering anger, they are plaintively seeking love.

Straying wives are rarely philanderers, but single women who mess around with married men are quite likely to be. Female philanderers prefer to raid other people's marriages, breaking up relationships, doing as much damage as possible, and then dancing off reaffirmed. Like male philanderers, female philanderers put their victims through all of this just to give themselves a sense of gender power.

Spider Woman

There are women who, by nature romantics, don't quite want to escape their own life and die for love. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. These women have been so recently betrayed by unfaithful men that the wound is still raw and they are out for revenge. A woman who angrily pursues married men is a "spider woman"--she requires human sacrifice to restore her sense of power.

When she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable.

The women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it.

Josephine Hart's novel Damage, and the Louis Malle film version of it, describe such a woman. She seduces her fiancee's depressed father, and after the fiancee discovers the affair and kills himself, she waltzes off from the wreckage of all the lives. She explains that her father disappeared long ago, her mother had been married four or five times, and her brother committed suicide when she left his bed and began to date other boys. She describes herself as damaged, and says: "Damaged people are dangerous. They know they can survive."

Bette was a spider woman. She came to see me only once, with her married affair partner Alvin, a man I had been seeing with his wife Agnes. But I kept up with her through the many people whose lives she touched. Bette's father had run off and left her and her mother when she was just a child, and her stepfather had exposed himself to her. Most recently Bette's manic husband Burt had run off with a stripper, Claudia, and had briefly married her before he crashed and went into a psychiatric hospital.

While Burt was with Claudia, the enraged Bette promptly latched on to Alvin, a laid-back philanderer who had been married to Agnes for decades and had been screwing around casually most of that time. Bette was determined that Alvin was going to divorce Agnes and marry her, desert his children, and raise her now-fatherless kids. The normally cheerful Alvin, who had done a good job for a lifetime of pleasing every woman he met and avoiding getting trapped by any of them, couldn't seem to escape Bette, but he certainly had no desire to leave Agnes. He grew increasingly depressed and suicidal. He felt better after he told the long-suffering Agnes, but he still couldn't move in any direction. Over the next couple of years, Bette and Alvin took turns threatening suicide, while Agnes tended her garden, raised her children, ran her business, and waited for the increasingly disoriented and pathetic Alvin to come to his senses.

Agnes finally became sufficiently alarmed about her husband's deterioration that she decided the only way she could save his life was to divorce him. She did, and Alvin promptly dumped Bette. He could not forgive her for what she had made him do to dear, sweet Agnes. He lost no time in taking up with Darlene, with whom he had been flirting for some time, but who wouldn't go out with a married man. Agnes felt relief, and the comfort of a good settlement, but Bette was once again abandoned and desperate.

She called Alvin hourly, alternately threatening suicide, reciting erotic poetry, and offering to fix him dinner. She phoned bomb threats to Darlene's office. Bette called me to tell me what a sociopathic jerk Alvin was to betray her with another woman after all she had done in helping him through his divorce. She wrote sisterly notes to Agnes, offering the comfort of friendship to help one another through the awful experience of being betrayed by this terrible man. At no point did Bette consider that she had done anything wrong. She was now, as she had been all her life, a victim of men, who not only use and abuse women, but won't lay down their lives to rescue them on cue.

EMOTIONALLY RETARDED MEN IN LOVE

About the only people more dangerous than philandering men going through life with an open fly and romantic damsels going through life in perennial distress, are emotionally retarded men in love. When such men go through a difficult transition in life, they hunker down and ignore all emotions. Their brain chemistry gets depressed, but they don't know how to feel it as depression. Their loved ones try to keep from bothering them, try to keep things calm and serene and isolate them further.

An emotionally retarded man may go for a time without feeling pleasure, pain, or anything else, until a strange woman jerks him back into awareness of something intense enough for him to feel it--perhaps sexual fireworks, or the boyish heroics of rescuing her, or perhaps just fascination with her constantly changing moods and never-ending emotional crises.

With her, he can pull out of his depression briefly, but he sinks back even deeper into it when he is not with her. He is getting addicted to her, but he doesn't know that. He only feels the absence of joy and love and life with his serenely cautious wife and kids, and the awareness of life with this new woman. It doesn't work for him to leave home to be with her, as she too would grow stale and irritating if she were around full time.

What he needs is not a crazier woman to sacrifice his life for, but treatment for his depression. However, since the best home remedies for depression are sex, exercise, joy, and triumph, the dangerous damsel may be providing one or more of them in a big enough dose to make him feel a lot better. He may feel pretty good until he gets the bill, and sees how much of his life and the lives of his loved ones this treatment is costing. Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last long.

Howard had been faithful to Harriett for 16 years. He had been happy with her. She made him feel loved, which no one else had ever tried to do. Howard devoted himself to doing the right thing. He always did what he was supposed to do and he never complained. In fact he said very little at all.

Howard worked at Harriett's father's store, a stylish and expensive mews clothiers. He had worked there in high school and returned after college. He'd never had another job. He had felt like a son to his father-in-law. But when the old man retired, he bypassed the stalwart, loyal Howard and made his own wastrel son manager.

Howard also took care of his own elderly parents who lived next door. His father died, and left a nice little estate to his mother, who then gave much of it to his younger brother, who had gotten into trouble with gambling and extravagance.

Howard felt betrayed, and sank into a depression. He talked of quitting his job and moving away. Harriett pointed out the impracticality of that for the kids. She reminded him of all the good qualities of his mother and her father.

Howard didn't bring it up again. Instead, he began to talk to Maxine, one of the tailors at the store, a tired middle-aged woman who shared Howard's disillusionment with the world. One day, Maxine called frightened because she smelled gas in her trailer and her third ex-husband had threatened to hurt her. She needed for Howard to come out and see if he could smell anything dangerous. He did, and somehow ended up in bed with Maxine. He felt in love. He knew it was crazy but he couldn't get along without her. He bailed her out of the frequent disasters in her life. They began to plot their getaway, which consumed his attention for months.

Harriett noticed the change in Howard, but thought he was just mourning his father's death. They continued to get along well, sex was as good as ever, and they enjoyed the same things they had always enjoyed. It was a shock to her when he told her he was moving out, that he didn't love her anymore, and that it had nothing whatever to do with Maxine, who would be leaving with him.

Harriett went into a rage and hit him. The children went berserk. The younger daughter cried inconsolably, the older one bulimic, the son quit school and refused to leave his room. I saw the family a few times, but Howard would not turn back. He left with Maxine, and would not return my phone calls. The kids were carrying on so on the telephone, Howard stopped calling them for a few months, not wanting to upset them. Meanwhile he and Maxine, who had left her kids behind as well, borrowed some money from his mother and moved to the coast where they bought into a marina--the only thing they had in common was the pleasure of fishing.

A year later, Harriet and the kids were still in therapy but they were getting along pretty well without him. Harriett was running the clothing store. Howard decided he missed his children and invited them to go fishing with him and Maxine. It surprised him when they still refused to speak to him. He called me and complained to me that his depression was a great deal worse. The marina was doing badly. He and Maxine weren't getting along very well. He missed his children and cried a lot, and she told him his preoccupation with his children was a betrayal of her. He blamed Harriett for fussing at him when she found out about Maxine. He believed she turned the children against him. He couldn't understand why anyone would be mad with him; he couldn't help who he loves and who he doesn't love.

MEN AND WOMEN WHO CHEAT

Howard's failure to understand the complex emotional consequences of his affair is typically male, just as Bette's insistence that her affair partner live up to her romantic fantasies is typically female. Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.

A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal. Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.

Routinely, a man will tell me that he assured himself that he loved his wife before he hopped into a strange bed, that the woman there with him means nothing, that it is just a meaningless roll in the hay. A woman is more likely to tell me that at the sound of the zipper she quickly ascertained that she was not as much in love with her husband as she should have been, and the man there in bed with her was the true love of her life.

A woman seems likely to be less concerned with the letter of the law than with the emotional coherence of her life. It may be okay to screw a man if she "loves" him, whatever the status of his or her marriage, and it is certainly appropriate to lie to a man who believes he has a claim on you, but whom you don't love.

Women may be more concerned with the impact of their affairs on their children than they are with the effect on their mate, whom they have already devalued and discounted in anticipation of the affair. Of course, a woman is likely to feel the children would be in support of her affair, and thus may involve them in relaying her messages, keeping her secrets, and telling her lies. This can be mind-blowingly seductive and confusing to the kids. Sharing the secret of one parent's affair, and hiding it from the other parent, has essentially the same emotional impact as incest.

Some conventional wisdom about gender differences in infidelity is true.

More men than women do have affairs, but it seemed to me that before the AIDS epidemic, the rate for men was dropping (philandering has not been considered cute since the Kennedy's went out of power) and the rate for women was rising (women who assumed that all men were screwing around saw their own screwing around as a blow for equal rights.) In recent years, promiscuity seems suicidal so only the suicidal--that is, the romantics--are on the streets after dark.

Men are able to approach sex more casually than women, a factor not only of the patriarchal double standard but also of the difference between having genitals on the outside and having them on the inside. Getting laid for all the wrong reasons is a lot less dangerous than falling in love with all the wrong people.

Men who get caught screwing around are more likely to be honest about the sex than women. Men will confess the full sexual details, even if they are vague about the emotions. Women on the other hand will confess to total consuming love and suicidal desire to die with some man, while insisting no sex ever took place. I would believe that if I'd ever seen a man describe the affair as so consumingly intense from the waist up and so chaste from the waist down. I assume these women are lying to me about what they know they did or did not do, while I assume that the men really are honest about the genital ups and downs--and honestly confused about the emotional ones.

Women are more likely to discuss their love affairs with their women friends. Philandering men may turn their sex lives into a spectator sport but romantic men tend to keep their love life private from their men friends, and often just withdraw from their friends during the romance.

On the other hand, women are not more romantic than men. Men in love are every bit as foolish and a lot more naive than women in love. They go crazier and risk more. They are far more likely to sacrifice or abandon their children to prove their love to some recent affaire. They are more likely to isolate themselves from everyone except their affair partner, and turn their thinking and feeling over to her, applying her romantic ways of thinking (or not thinking) to the dilemmas of his increasingly chaotic life.

Men are just as forgiving as women of their mates' affairs. They might claim ahead of time that they would never tolerate it, but when push comes to shove, cuckolded men are every bit as likely as cuckolded women to fight like tigers to hold on to a marriage that has been betrayed. Cuckolded men may react violently at first, though cuckolded women do so as well, and I've seen more cases of women who shot and wounded or killed errant husbands. (The shootings occur not when the affair is stopped and confessed, but when it is continued and denied.)

Betrayed men, like betrayed women, hunker down and do whatever they have to do to hold their marriage together. A few men and women go into a rage and refuse to turn back, and then spend a lifetime nursing the narcissistic injury, but that unusual occurrence is no more common for men than for women. Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with.

I have cleaned up from more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.

It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong.

I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting--that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant.



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Publication: Psychology Today
Publication Date: May/Jun 93
Last Reviewed: 30 Aug 2004
(Document ID: 1681)

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When the 'dumb answers' thread was started, I had trouble restricting myself to two posts. There were about 137 dumb answers I could have dropped in right away. I notice the thread is still growing healthily, so clearly 'fog' is a universal mirth-maker.

I was also struck by Kat's thread on how tough it must be to be the deliverer of the dumb answer, the one deep in fog.

So yesterday, during an interminable technical seminar and a long motorway journey, I found myslef wondering just how WS's get into that situation. My own H has described his own situation to me very clearly, and I've generated my own homespun psychology to explain it. I suppose I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to make sense of everything.

So the following is a personal slant on what I think goes on in the mind of affair partners, and how I think the fog works. It's talking about the 'soulmate' kind of affair - I think fling-type affairs follow different paths. I'd find it useful to know if it matches with others' experiences.

And it's LONG.

To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality.

‘Reality’ for each of us, consists principally of two things – our ‘life model’, and our value system.

The ‘life model’ is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things – how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we’ve made the model, how much we’ve tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered ‘shrewd’, and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It’s the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set – “what’s best for ME”, can revolve around the family, or can be very broad – “what’s in the best interests of the community (town, nation, world)?”

Some of our values are personal – we’ve learned hard lessons from our own experience. – “Don’t steal, or you’ll get a record.’ Some we’ve unconsciously absorbed from our parents – “It’s wrong to steal”. Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals – “Her son was done for burglary, isn’t it awful?”.

When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it’s innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will be able to ‘trust’ – to confidently predict the other’s actions and opinions – and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.

Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the values system so that we don’t appear to have breached it.

When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved – for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system – when the WS says “I didn’t think…” , that’s exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be deliberately ignored. There is a ‘fantasy leap’, almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says ‘ I want some fun / excitement / attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it.”

The ‘denial’ mechanism can’t operate for long – the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure oppose pain and discomfort.

For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess – but of course it’s not something trivial they’d be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.

I suspect that most WS’s begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it’s too big – like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain – perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.

So the WS’s position metamorphoses:

1) It’s wrong to have an affair.
2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage.
4) The outside relationship ‘brightens’ me, and is therefore good for the marriage.
5) Other people are inexperienced. They don’t understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is.
6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.

The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much – the fact that TWO people are involved.

Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they’re doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they’re justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they’re involved with someone whose values system is easily changed – that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are ‘growing’, becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral / emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.

In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other ‘in’ the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other’s personal investment.

The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.

By this time, the WS’s values systems are a LONG way from where they began.

Think back to what a values system is. It’s a set of beliefs based on a life model – the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won’t hurt my family).

The problem with the altered life model is that it’s not realistic. It starts from a premise that’s innately flawed – that it is OK for this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.

Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it’s a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn’t have to personally prove it. We can see that skydivers don’t appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that’s just because they don’t get high enough?

Once you’re working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they’re supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft – at that height the trouble would be getting them down!

The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense.

This is ‘fog’.

The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it’s put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions that cannot easily be denied or ignored – the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother’s face, the lash of a lawyer’s letter.

So what’s happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?

To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It’s an escape. But, as the two realities diverge, there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is ‘having’ to lie and deceive. If only the BS’s could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS’s were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS’s are happy! It is infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS’s would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other…

There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.

So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.

The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to bteray.

By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished – the WS’s have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses – that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the marriage. Both WS’s are locked in a death-spiral – each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.

So what about the ‘fog’? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a ‘flickering’ effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to ‘see’ the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to ‘see’ the old reality clearly too. WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS’s deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.

And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair’s life-model. For the first time, the illogicality of the affair’s premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble – the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the ‘dumb answer’threads.

At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they’ve done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.

There seem to be lots of each WS type here on this board.

Has anyone reached this point without unconsciousness overtaking them?

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I borrowed this from another Web Site on Infidelity. It sounded like the steps my FWW described to me as she explained her affair to me.

-----------------------------

This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.

Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness

How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.

This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?


1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."

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Quote
ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.


WOW..I hadn't read this in a while..

MY H DEFINITELY HAD A ROMANTIC AFFAIR..in ALL ASPECTS of this description.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Pepperband #1836804 05/01/07 10:39 AM
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"In my opinion;

1. You are needy. She knows it.
2. She is working you on that basis for whatever it is she wants, likely money.
3. Women don't respect needy men very much.
4. Your kid needs you.

So, get a grip, be in charge of yourself and get on with our life.

Just my opinion.

Yes, kick her out, aka grow a pair. BS fog: I had it bad. I couldn't think I was so mixed up. Talk about scrambled brains. That was me. I had NOT found this place yet. I talked to a guy at the suicide hotline who got me straight.

The points I remember are:

1. Get your head on straight. Forget her, think of you and the kids. What is best for YOU and the kids. She isn't thinking of you, she is thinking of herself.

2. Figure out what YOU want. If it is her, tell her exactly what you want and do not compromise. She either gives you what you want, without exception and without holding back or kick her [censored] out.

3. Life will go on with or without her. But the kids need a healthy dad and a healthy mom. If she isn't going to get her head on straight, that isn't your problem it is her's and the kid's, so at least you can be there for them.

4. She screwed up, not you. You are under no obligation to repair her problem. She is trying to make her problem your problem, don't buy it.

Well, I thought about it for about ten minutes and asked a couple of clarifying questions. I realized that I had hocked my manhood and needed to go to the pawn store and get them back, right now. I hoisted them up and called my wife who was out "Shopping." I said: "Get it home, I have made up my mind what and where I am and what I am going to do."

She did, madder than all get out. That made no difference. I simply said: "Get rid of him or I am gone right now, and I will not come back." I said some other stuff that isn't important to your situation near as I can tell.

She got rid of him immediately. I gave her a set of instructions and boundaries. To this day she follows them without exception. I love her. She says she loves me and acts like it.

It doesn't always work. It did for me. Your mileage may vary. But your life will be screwed up as Hogan's goat until you take charge of it. So will your kid's."


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Dear Daddy,

It's late at night, and I'm sitting in the middle of my bed writing to you. I've wanted to talk with you so many times during the past few weeks. But there never seems to be any time when we're alone.

Dad, I realize you're dating someone else. And I know you and Mom may never get back together. That's terribly hard to accept - especially knowing that you may never come back home or be an "everyday" dad to me and Brian again. But at least I want you to know what's going on in our lives.

Don't think Mom asked me to write this. She didn't . She doesn't know I'm writing, and neither does Brian. I just want to share with you what I've been thinking.

Dad, I feel like our family has been riding in a nice car for a long time. You know, the kind you always liked to have as a company car. It's the kind that has every extra inside and not a scratch on the outside.

But over the years, the car has developed some problems. It's smoking a lot, the wheels wobble, and the seat covers are ripped. The car's been really hard to drive or ride in because of all the shaking and squeaking. But it's still a great automobile - or at least it could be. With a little work, I know it could run for years.

Since we got the car, Brian and I have been in the backseat while you and Mom have been up front. We feel really secure with you driving and Mom beside you. But last month, Mom was at the wheel.

It was nighttime, and we had just turned the corner near our house. Suddenly, we all looked up and saw another car, out of control, heading straight for us. Mom tried to swerve out of the way, but the other car still smashed into us. The impact sent us flying off the road and crashing into a lamppost.

The thing is, Dad, just before being hit, we could see that you were driving the other car. And we saw something else: Sitting next to you was another woman.

It was such a terrible accident that we were all rushed to the hospital emergency ward. But when we asked where you were, no one knew. We're still not really sure where you are or if you were hurt or if you need help.

Mom was really hurt. She was thrown into the steering wheel and broke several ribs. One of them punctured her lungs and almost pierced her heart.

When the car wrecked, the back door smashed into Brian. He was covered with cuts from the broken glass, and he shattered his arm, which is now in a cast. But that's not the worst. He's still in so much pain and shock that he doesn't want to talk or play with anyone.

As for me, I was thrown from the car. I was stuck out in the cold for a long time with my right leg broken. As I lay there, I couldn't move and didn't know what was wrong with Mom and Brian. I was hurting so much myself that I couldn't help them.

There have been so many times since that night when I wondered if any of us would make it. Even though we're getting a little better, we're all still in the hospital. The doctor's say I'll need a lot of therapy on my leg, and I know they can help me get better. But I wish it was you who was helping me, instead of them.

The pain is so bad, but what's even worse is that we all miss you so much. Every day we wait to see if you're going to visit us in the hospital, and every day you don't come. I know it's over. But my heart would explode with joy if somehow I could look up and see you walk into my room.

At night when the hospital is really quiet, they push Brian and me into Mom's room, and we talk about you. We talk about how much we loved driving with you and how we wish you were here with us now.

Are you alright? Are you hurting from the wreck? Do you need us like we need you? If you need me, I'm here and I love you.

Your daughter,

Kimberly

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It is the fear that paralyzes you, sends blood rushing through your veins, sours your stomach, and interupts your sleep. It is the fear that gives away your power, your hope, and your forgiveness. It is fear that robs you of the active self and traps you in the role of patronizing enabler who will take them back at ANY cost...even if the price is too high. It is fear that keeps you from confronting and exposing. And fear that prevents you from enforcing your boundaries and having compassion for yourself.

Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear

Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spirtual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limpic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".

There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our indentity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.

MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.

You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.

Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.

If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.

Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.

Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.

Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.

Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.

And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble.

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I think this phrase has just become a hockey-puck ... thrown out on the ice and hit about ....

he has low self esteem so he had an affair

she has low self esteem so she yells at her kids

he has low self esteem and that is why he hits his wife

she has low self esteem and that is why she dresses like a hooker

he has low self esteem and that is why he gets bad grades

STOP THE INSANITY

I think using the "low-self-esteem" defense for lousy choices .... is just too easy

try a different word

try

RESPECT

self RESPECT requires a reverence for doing what is ~right~

for doing what is difficult

for bringing HONOR to our own world

for meeting our obligations

self esteem gets all bound up with feelings ....

RESPECT is the key

not

"self esteem" .... the way it is commonly used today

MY opinion is free .... you get what you pay for

I don't give a fiddle for someone seeking "self esteem" when they clearly don't respect what is noble in themselves or others....

Pep

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THIS post is lifted in it's entirety from a thread by GoodFather. UVA's message to GoodFather is so awesome I decided it needed to be more easily accesable for future reference.... so here it is ... enjoy and learn and be inspired to MAN UP and go to WAR !

Pep

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I want to discuss some preliminary issues. First, let me say that you are very lucky to have so many good people taking an interest in your sitch (i.e. your story) and giving their advice. You don't know them yet, because you are new on this site, but many of them are the best of the best on this site.


Second, like I told you earlier, I prefer not to hold any punches when I speak, and what I say below may be hard to swallow, but you need to hear the truth so that you may act in a way that is most conducive to the achievement of your goals.

Thus, what I say is not for the weak-hearted. Where I seem harsh, I do not mean to offend, it is to WAKE YOU UP from the big slumber that you seem to be in. I, like the others, have your best interest at heart. In the end, you will be ok and remember that you are stronger than you think you are, as will be discussed below.


Third, what follows will be very long, as I gave a lot of thought of what I wanted to say to you and tried to come up with a fairly comprehensive strategy that you may want to put into action. It will be information overload and you won't get many of it right away. But use it as a guideline and refer to it on an ongoing basis in addition to the advices you are getting from others on your thread. In time it will all make sense.

So break what follows up in parts and come back to it from time to time.


What I say here is also more or less what the others have been telling you and will be telling you. In short, it is the MB principles with a big dose of reality check.


I think analytically, so I will write in an outline form in the hope of being as clear as I can.


One question I asked myself yesterday as I was thinking about your situation is why am I so concerned with your sitch? There are two reasons, I believe. One your wife's actions are so brazen and she seems so cold-hearted towards you "although you may not see this" that I got very upset with her. She reminds of the FWW (WW?) of Brokenbird, another poster here, with her callousness. The second reason is your WW is a fast mover. She is planning the demise of your M as we speak and has already seen a lawyer to that end. Thus, time becomes a very important factor in your sitch even though you may not realize it yet. You need a strategy and you need one NOW. So here we go.


(To others, please add, modify, and suggest deletions as you see fit with what I say. The main goal here is to see that GF gets the best possible help he can get.)


A. ACCEPT REALITY for what it really is.

You wife is in a full blown affair and you are, sorry to say, being played for a fool. All WSs at some point or another play their BSs for a fool. So you are not alone.

What am I talking about here? Well, a woman does not go cross country to meet a guy (several times) and not screw him. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Moreover, she is going to meet him in Vegas (VEGAS!), sleep in the SAME ROOM with him, and you somehow think that nothing sexual will happen between them. Come on! It should be clear from these facts alone what has been going on and what will be going on. Furthermore, she already wants to introduce your DD to OM, trying to begin the process of replacing you with OM to DD.
OM is coming to town to have sex with your WW some more and you were not sure until recently whether to meet his sorry [censored], pretending with your WW that he and your WW were just friends. It makes no sense GF.

To put icing on the cake, your WW has already seen a lawyer, positioning herself to win custody of DD, and you still could not see that she plans on kicking you the curve and replacing you with OM.


I will say more on exposure below, but for now I think you need to expose to your parents for two reasons. One, you will need all the emotional support you can get and they can be a big source of that. Second, you obviously need some outside perspective from all of this, and I think your parents can clearly point out to you what is really going on even though you are refusing to believe your own eyes.


To recap, here is what we know and you need to accept,

1. Your WW has slept with OM.
2. WW and OM plan to screw some more next weekend in Vegas
3. WW is trying to manipulate you into submission and silence.
4. WW plans on divorcing you.
5. WW wants full or primary custody of DD, as evidenced by her wanting to change the schedule you have with DD. More on that later.
6. WW wants to replace you with OM as the head of the family.
a. She is already trying to introduce DD to him.
7. They are playing you for a fool, as evidenced by the brazenness of their actions and expecting you believe they are just friends. They are sick, and it is your job to bring some reality check into their fantasy.

This we will work on.
So accepting reality is one of the first steps you need to take in order to give yourself a chance to save your M, to protect your DD and yourself.


B. You need to MAN UP


Since you are a military man, you understand the concept of war. This crap you are going through is war. It is a war to save your M, to protect your DD, and to maintain your sanity. Even though you may feel fear, you must act decisively, lest you and your DD become the latest casualties of infidelity.


The weak may inherit the earth, but they do not win custody, especially if they are males. You need to be strong to fight for your DD. Further, as some has suggested, women do not like men they perceive as weak. You will not win your WW back by catapulting to her every demand. Since, right now she does not have your best interest in mind, she is sure to exploit whatever weakness you exhibit. Thus, you are going to have to start standing up for yourself. It does not mean that you have to be rude, which is totally contrary to Plan A, but you need to stop being a doormat. A delicate balance, I know; a necessary one, nonetheless. You seem to be improving on that front. And I am proud of you!


C. SNOOP


We know that there is an A. What you need now is proof of the A. The proof in my opinion is neither for you nor for your wife, since both of you know (and should know in your case) of the A.

I see no value in trying to convince a WS that they are in A. If they are in A, they know they are in A. Trying to convince them that they are in the A is a waste of time.


Now your WW will try to convince you that she is not in an A, but if you know that your WW is in an A (as should be the case here), it is also a waste of time to argue with her about the existence of her A. When you have the proof in hand you can just show it her if you wish provided this does not jeopardize your source or legal case but I don't think that is necessary. You can just tell her that you know she is in an A and she can do whatever she wants with this information, i.e., the knowledge that you know what is going on.

Don't let her trick you into a fight on this. It is a waste of time and emotionally draining.


There are two other reasons, however, why I believe it is imperative to get proof of the A.

One, you need proof for your legal case if your situation proceeds that route. Merely saying that you WW is having an A will not be enough. Since your WW is going to lie and say otherwise, you will need proof that can stand in court. You don't want this issue to be just a he-says/she-says scenario in court. Note that even if the divorce laws in your state say that infidelity is irrelevant, infidelity may nonetheless be a factor in deciding who gets custody of your DD. Moreover, since the judge is human, and even if the law says one thing, human nature will force him or her to take your WW's infidelity into consideration when he or she deliberates on your case.


A second reason to snoop is to establish your credibility to those you expose to. Your parents will naturally believe you, so this is not for them. But her parents, and friends, others who can be influential with her, will be more apt to come to your aid if you can back up claims to them. A WS is a big time liar. Therefore, your WW is a big time liar right now. Just as she is lying to you now, she will be lying to those you expose to. If you have irrefutable proof in hand, she will have no where to hide and those you expose will have to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

For these two reasons, I think it's important to snoop your butt off on this.


How do you snoop? Well as others said, get telephone recording devices, car or personal tracking devices, computer keyloggers and hire a PI. Hiring a PI would especially be good for the trip to Vegas. That would really solidify your case in court for custody, should it come to that, and open the exposure targets eyes to what your wife has really been up to. I know that hiring a PI may seem very expensive to you right now, but a divorce and losing custody of your DD will be much more expensive than that, this I promise you.
Others are better expert on how to go about snooping, so I will defer to them on that. But what is clear, is that you need to do it.


D. Plan A: Exposure


1. Make a list of exposure targets and proceed to expose to them. They should be your parents, her parents, her siblings, friends of the M that can have influence on your WW.

Later on, if that does not work, you can expose to the church you guys go to if you go to one or other people that can make a difference in your sitch.


2. When you expose be sure to tell the people that you expose to that your goal is to save your M and that you need their help in reaching that goal.


3. Do not threaten your WW that you are going to expose. Just do it. Do not tell her your plan here. In fact, do not tell her any of your plans in trying to save your M and protecting yourself and your DD. Just as you would not tell an enemy your plan in a war, you don't want to tell your WW your plan in this battle. Unfortunately, all WSs are the enemies of marriages.


4. Be ready for a big backlash when you expose. Your WW will say that your M is over, that this is the last straw, blah blah blah. Don't worry, you will survive it! But don't argue with her on this; just keep telling her that you will do whatever it takes to protect your M. Keep repeating this over and over as she brings it up.


E. See a Lawyer ASAP


Since you have already plan to do this, this is somewhat a moot plan. But keep the following in mind

1. Be sure that your lawyer tells you what your rights are, both for divorce and custody purposes.

2. With respect to custody, do not change your schedule with DD to accommodate your WW. The court will most likely give custody to the parent who takes care of DD and is there for her the most. As of now, that seems to be you. It is clear that your WW's lawyer has told her that she needs to change the nature of the relationship that you have with DD, so WW can better position herself for custody at your expense. Do not accommodate her at all in this end. Continue to be the primary caretaker of DD.

Further, be sure to document all your interactions with DD and WW from now one. Again, in court your mere words will not be sufficient. If you document everything, however, the court will give me more credence to your contentions than your WW's. Henceforth, not only do you write down everything you do for DD and everything your WW does not do for her, keep every receipt of the things that you do for DD.

Also, when you document what is going on, make sure to write with a pen. A typed document will be given less credence in court (because you could have just written it just before court day). So get to work on this.


3. Don't discuss divorce with your WW. You do M and your lawyer does divorce. If she wants to discuss divorce refer her to your lawyer. Be a broken record on this too. Do not let her bait you into divorce talk. As Dazed said, she will claim that she will do this and that to you if you don't give in to her. Don't take her seriously or listen to her nonsense on this. You have much more legal rights than she knows or wants to acknowledge. Thus, on the legal front, listen to your attorney, not your selfish, deluded, fogged-out WW.


4. Put your finances in order, and ask your parents to help you with upcoming financial difficulties that you will face because of this.


F. Schedule an appointment with the Harleys
You seem to ahead on this. So enough said.


G. Plan A: Being the Best You Can Be.

1. Be as nice as possible to your WW without condoning the A. Do not be a doormat! Many confuse Plan A with being a doormat, and I vehemently disagree with this. Set up your boundaries without gratuitously being mean to her.
I believe being the best you can be will encompasses you treating her well. You see if you are being the best person you can be, you will strive to be the best husband, the best father, and being the best in whatever other roles your life entails. In being the best possible husband you can be, you would want to treat your wife well and meet her needs. Thus, you would try to find out what her needs are and try to meet them. You would be polite with her whenever you're given the chance. To be sure, as a WS, your WW will rebuff many of your kind overtures, but that should not deter you in trying to be a great husband. Similar considerations apply to your roles in the other areas of your life.

But please do not confuse this with letting your WW walk all over you. A BS should never have to grovel to a selfish, unethical, irrational WS. Be polite, kind and loving whenever given the chance, but be firm and strong with respect to your boundaries.

In short, determine your shortfalls as an individual in all of the roles you play, and try to rectify them.


H. Get Full STDs Testing

Many on this site want to bypass this step, but I think for your health, your peace of mind, and the well-being of your DD, you need to do it. STDs are alive and well in this country even though almost everyone, including me, wants to pretend otherwise. To ignore it is a big mistake in my opinion.

Most WSs have unprotected sex with the OPs. Thus, the BSs, when they sleep with their WSs, expose themselves to all the potential STDs that the OPs may have had.

We have some cases here where the BS fell victim to an STD courtesy of his or her beloved WS. This is not a game, and as unsavory as it is to think about it, you must protect yourself.
In addition, before you have unprotected sex with your WW in the future, be sure she gets herself tested first. Since she slept with OM, you should require this as a condition for unprotected sex with her. If you want to pretend that the possibility of STD does not exist in your case, feel free to do so. You can deny this all you want, but an STD, if any, will not deny you.


I. Pray to God and ask Him to help you with this.


Although God helps those who help themselves, this is the most important step, in my opinion. He is greater than all of us and greater than all of this. It will be hard, but slowly and surely you should learn to put this, with everything every thing else, in His hands.


J. Some General Points


1. Do Not Move Out no matter what.

2. If WW wants to leave, she goes by herself. DD stays at home with you, where she belongs.

3. Ask WW to stop talking to OM in your house. She will get mad and what not, but continue to make it uncomfortable for them to keep disrespecting you in your own house.

4. Ask OM to leave your WW alone, so that there will no doubt about how you feel about their A. Don't expect much from this. It will be more to put OM on notice of your resolve to fight for your M.

a. If you can afford it, do like Bob Pure did and find out every thing you can out about OM. Find about his weak spots, and we can try to see where we can exploit them.

5. I think this bears repeating, do not grovel and beg your WW to stay with you. One, since you did not do anything wrong, you do not deserve to put yourself in that position. Second, a woman wants a man that they can respect. They won't respect or be attracted to a groveling man. So even if your reflexes are to beg, stop yourself from doing said action.

6. Do not try to reason with your WW while she is a WW. As they are fond of saying here, WS are abducted by aliens. They cannot reason, and all they want is their next affair fix. You would be wasting your time if you think you can make your WW see the logic of your position. Just let her know your conclusions if need be and move on. (Do this in a non-DJ way though).

In the same vein, do not try to make sense of every utterance that comes out of your WW's mouth. Again, you will be wasting a lot of time trying to follow the logic or reason of your WW's statements. She is confused and thus so will be her words.

7. Unless it obvious, do not believe anything your WW tells you right now. WSs are pathological liars. As I have heard here, believe nothing a WS tells you, and only half of what you see. Also keep in mind that your WW does not have your best interest at heart at the moment; she is h*ll bent on destroying your M. Hence, as a rational person, you cannot rely on what she tells you.

8. Be acutely aware that what is going on in your M right now is NOT YOUR FAULT. It is easy to believe that your shortcomings in the M are the reasons that your wife cheated, especially when your WW rewrites the history between you two and blames you for everything. You may not have been the perfect husband, but you did not make her have an affair. I suspect your WW was probably not the perfect wife either, but yet you did not go outside of your M to fix your marriage problems.

Her A is her personal CHOICE. People are free to make their own decisions. So repeat after me, IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT MY WIFE IS IN AN AFFAIR; IT IS HER CHOICE!

9. Again, do not discuss your plans with your WW.

10. Even though it may not seem like it, your M is very salvageable.

Given that your MIL seems to be a morally strong person and the fact that OM leaves far from you, you have a good chance of saving your M. After you expose and when she sees that OM cannot come to her rescue, I believe reality will slowly sank in her foggy brain as to the gravity of her situation. Nothing wakes a WS up like good-old consequences. I have high hope for you.

I thought of recapping what I said here, but I am very tired and will leave it as is. These are my thoughts on your situation. I come in peace and love even though I may seem harsh in some areas.
God Bless.

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