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#2283179 12/05/09 11:38 PM
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Hi all -

My wife of many years has just started to initiate a separation. There is a very new relationship for her that is a factor. Fortunately, it has not progressed very far.

I am trying to negotiate an agreement to not have any contact with the third party while we work on our issues, and I am meeting strong resistance. It is challenging to not make demands and threats, which I realize are very destructive. So I am looking for any advice in this department.

Thanks in advance for any help.

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Welcome to MB.

How long have you been married?

Do you have any kids?

Do you know who this other person is? Are they married.

Advice... starting studying on here and EXPOSE to EVERYONE you can that has influence on your wife.

Gather as much information as possible.


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
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Greetings, mfoss. I'm sorry event have caused you to find this place, but your good fortune is that you DID find it!

Queenie's advice is sound and solid. Do it. Do it now!

If your wife has initiated separation, then the "new" relationship is not so new. It's likely she has progressed from the "we're sympathetic and compatible with one another" stage to the "I have found my soul mate and want to move in with him" stage. This is what happened to me.

I need to tell you up front that you are going to experience the "roller coaster" of emotions that accompanies knowledge of an affair. "D-Day" is the day you became aware of the Other Person (OP, or OM). My advice to you is this:

Follow the directions given to you by the veterans on this board. Even when they go against everything you think is "right" and "proper." That is, unless you're willing to throw in the towel and prepare for D (divorce).

Read everything you can on the Marriage Builders (MB) web site. Learn about Emotional Needs (EN), Love Busters (LB) and start preparing Plan A right away. Today, go to your local book store and purchase a copy of "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley, Jr. and Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers (no, I'm not a shill for them or this site, but these are the tools you need if you're going to rescue and rebuild your marriage).

Ask questions here. Anything, any time. The folks here will help you get through this.

I promise.


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
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I'd agree that this "new" relationship is not so new and it has gone further than you think. So if you want to recover your M you need to start a good plan A.

What is Plan A and Plan B?

I'd also start documenting everything in case it goes in the other direction. You want to protect your assets as well. It's not uncommon for a WS to drain the family assets carrying on an A.

Sorry that this is going on, but glad you made it here.


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Thanks very much for the advice and support.

We have been married 11 years, with 2 kids. On one hand, I am pretty confident that the other relationship has not progressed very far, based on time and circumstance, and I do believe that it was a catalyst for this situation, based at least partially on my wife not wanting to hurt me. On the other hand, I am aware that it there are emotional needs being met, and I am also aware that we can not move forward until no contact is established.

The challenge I face is balancing the positive behaviour of plan A with the seemingly love busting actions of exposing things, which angered her greatly when I mentioned doing it. Do I just need to do it, get the exposure over with, and move to plan a?

Also, what what to tell the kids?

I am so glad to have found this site and this forum. I can't tell you how silly I feel reading about basic concepts that I have clearly neglected.

Thanks again for all the great advice so far, and support.


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Originally Posted by mfoss2212
Hi all -

My wife of many years has just started to initiate a separation. There is a very new relationship for her that is a factor. Fortunately, it has not progressed very far.

I am trying to negotiate an agreement to not have any contact with the third party while we work on our issues, and I am meeting strong resistance. It is challenging to not make demands and threats, which I realize are very destructive. So I am looking for any advice in this department.

Thanks in advance for any help.

ok, mfoss, I need you to listen very carefully, because you are on the verge of making some very strategic mistakes that may spell the end of your marriage.

There are some key points you need to understand.

1. your wife wants the separation to carry on her affair unimpeded.

2. the affair HAS progressed very far if she wants to leave her marriage to pursue it - the affair is very entrenched

3. separation increases the risk of divorce so it would be a mistake to cooperate

4. your wife is hoping to spin the story like this:

"mfoss and I fell out of love and I am ending the marriage. We are getting separated. Because of this I have met a new man and ........."

the TRUE STORY IS THIS:

"I am having an adulterous affair with JoeScumBag and am abandoning my marriage for my affair."

5. getting the true story out there via exposure will hasten the death of this affair


The first mistake is agreeing to a separation. You have to first understand that your wife wants the separation so she can carry on her affair unimpeded. She has probably told you needs "space" to "think" about things, right? So you are wasting your time asking her to not to continue her affair. You are negotiating for the wrong thing, in other words.

What you should not do is to COOPERATE with a separation. Tell her you are not interested in separation, but will only cooperate with marital recovery.

In the meantime, you can work on saving your marriage by letting her know you will change the things in your marriage that made her unhappy and by striving to RUIN HER AFFAIR. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it will be your most potent weapon against the affair. It is based on fantasy, and bringing it out into the open ruins all that. We have had affairs die the day they were exposed. With others, it hastens their death.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by mfoss2212
The challenge I face is balancing the positive behaviour of plan A with the seemingly love busting actions of exposing things, which angered her greatly when I mentioned doing it. Do I just need to do it, get the exposure over with, and move to plan a?

Also, what what to tell the kids?

The goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid making her angry at all cost. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an ongoing affair. The affair should be exposed to everyone. Your family, your children, her family, his family, employer, if applicable.

The kids should be told the whole truth. That their mother is having an adulterous affair with JoeSB and that their mother wants to abandon the family for her affair. She can explain her actions to the kids. She can explain why it is ok to cruelly harm others for her "happiness." The kids will have plenty of questions for her, no doubt.

What she is doing is not ok, and it should not be whitewashed to make her feel better about her thoughtless, cruel behavior.

The marriages that made it around here exposed the affair, mfoss; you cannot afford to forgo this potent tool out of fear.

Dr. Harley on Exposure


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Don't tell your wife that you are going to expose this A. Of course she doesn't want this secret of hers exposed. A's thrive in secrecy. She will hate that her secret gets out and she will be very angry. BUT your M can handle her anger, your M cannot WITHSTAND her ongoing A. Expose the A to your family and hers to get their support and to put pressure on her to end it. You do it calmly, not in a vindictive way. "My wife is having an A with so n so and I want to R our M. I would appreciate your support". That's all that needs to be said. At this point in time you REALLY need support. The kids should be told in an age appropriate fashion.

Here's a great summary of what Plan A looks like.


Quote
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


Make sure YOU ARE NOT THE ONE TO LEAVE THE FAMILY HOME! If she wants to separate, SHE should have to leave. Your kids need a stable environment and she cannot possibly give them that while in the throws of an A. Wayward spouses do not think straight and they are very selfish and self centered. Right now they are NOT her priority. You have to protect them.

Do you know who the OM is? You need to find this out and expose to his family. How did they meet? Do they work together? If so the workplace also needs to be exposed to.









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Originally Posted by mfoss2212
I am trying to negotiate an agreement to not have any contact with the third party while we work on our issues, and I am meeting strong resistance

Rule #1 in the art of killing an affair: never negotiate with a terrorist. Your marriage is under assault by an affair. That woman is not your wife, but an alien whose mind is in the throes of an addictive affair.

Is the OM married? Who is he and where did your wife meet him?



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Dr. Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Whenever a betrayed spouse tells me that they�ve just discovered their spouse�s affair, my advice is almost always the same: Let others know about it. Tell your children, family, friends, clergy, and especially the lover�s spouse, if they have one. And this is even to be done during what I call plan A (making an effort to make as many Love Bank deposits, and as few withdrawals as possible). The problem some people have with that strategy is that it conflicts with the goal of plan A because it�s likely to cause massive Love Bank withdrawals. An unfaithful spouse almost always considers such exposure to be a worse act of betrayal than their affair itself. But the alternative, helping the unfaithful spouse to keep the affair a secret, is enabling the addiction, prolonging the agony. In the long run, making the affair public knowledge without any forewarnings, threats, or bartering (which by themselves can create massive withdrawals) actually reduces the number of Love Bank withdrawals made by the betrayed spouse. It�s my opinion that the advantages of immediate exposure usually far outweigh the disadvantages.
<snip>

Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery.
here

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Quote
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


Quote
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.

Quote
Q: How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

A: Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).

Originally Posted by Dr.Harley
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Just more emphasis from other replies.

Do NOT talk about exposure. Just do it.

Expect anger afterwards. It means you hit your mark and it has effect on the situation. In your favor.

Prepare for the anger and try remember to stay calm in its face when it comes at you. That is a given.

Then, continue with your Plan A. No lovebusting and showing what a good spouse you can be even in the horrible situation of infedelity.







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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
ok, mfoss, I need you to listen very carefully, because you are on the verge of making some very strategic mistakes that may spell the end of your marriage.

There are some key points you need to understand.

1. your wife wants the separation to carry on her affair unimpeded.

2. the affair HAS progressed very far if she wants to leave her marriage to pursue it - the affair is very entrenched

3. separation increases the risk of divorce so it would be a mistake to cooperate

4. your wife is hoping to spin the story like this:

"mfoss and I fell out of love and I am ending the marriage. We are getting separated. Because of this I have met a new man and ........."

the TRUE STORY IS THIS:

"I am having an adulterous affair with JoeScumBag and am abandoning my marriage for my affair."

5. getting the true story out there via exposure will hasten the death of this affair


The first mistake is agreeing to a separation. You have to first understand that your wife wants the separation so she can carry on her affair unimpeded. She has probably told you needs "space" to "think" about things, right? So you are wasting your time asking her to not to continue her affair. You are negotiating for the wrong thing, in other words.

What you should not do is to COOPERATE with a separation. Tell her you are not interested in separation, but will only cooperate with marital recovery.

In the meantime, you can work on saving your marriage by letting her know you will change the things in your marriage that made her unhappy and by striving to RUIN HER AFFAIR. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it will be your most potent weapon against the affair. It is based on fantasy, and bringing it out into the open ruins all that. We have had affairs die the day they were exposed. With others, it hastens their death.
mfoss, you are here and have the opportunity to save your M "in time." I wish I had found this place when my WW announced she wanted out and then not 24 hours later admitted to the A.

Had I known then what I know now, I would be in Plan A, and not Plan B -- I hurried off to a lawyer to draw up the separation agreement, and played right into WW's hands.

Because of this, the chances of my WW and I recovering this M is greatly reduced. There are other reasons as well, but some of the veterans here have advised me that I might want to get used to living without her in my life.

It sucks, but I rushed into some bad decisions because I was ruled by emotion and not logic. Yes, you are filled with emotion. So let the logic of the veterans here guide you!


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
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Amazing. It's on guys. You have all inspired me. I think I get it. It is pretty rollercoastery though!

They met through my work. He is in a relationship as well. I am going to call him ASAP as a first step.

Perhaps funnily, I am a little excited about implementing plan A and meeting her needs which I can clearly see I have not, so my instincts were confused over her negative reaction to exposure. The fact that she is so against exposure and not agreeing to ending it clearly indicates to me that there is something there that she is attached to.

My only consideration is that one of the situations where Dr. H does not advocate exposure is when you do not have enough proof. I am a borderline case from an evidence perspective, but all the clues are pointing to a very clear scenario. So, I think I am comfortable going ahead and just being honest.

Telling the kids is going to be interesting, any further advice or real world experiences would be appreciated.

I am finding the information on this site so valuable. I need to find a way to buy this book, and deal with the shame of going to a bookstore to do it. Maybe I can ask a friend to do it.

Thanks again with my entire heart.


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mfoss, then your first step is to QUIETLY get the evidence. Don't ask, just hire a PI or get the goods yourself. [we can help you with this]

Quote
They met through my work. He is in a relationship as well. I am going to call him ASAP as a first step.

Don't call him until you have the goods and have exposed the affair. We will help you with that step when it is time.

First things first. Tell your wife you are not interested in a separation and will not cooperate. Don't fight, plead or lovebust or lecture.

Don't even let her know you know about her affair YET. Just get the goods and come back here. We will help you plan this out strategically. Our goal is to help you save your marriage.

Quote
I need to find a way to buy this book, and deal with the shame of going to a bookstore to do it. Maybe I can ask a friend to do it.

You can order it on this website and have it sent to your office or another address. They sell the books cheap and have fast, cheap shipping.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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You can order the book from the online bookstore on this site. I believe that it even comes with a slight discount if you do this.


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How old are your kids?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by mfoss2212
There is a very new relationship for her that is a factor.

oh, wait a minute. Didn't she already tell you she is having an affair with this chump?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Kids are 8 and 11.


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She is maintaining it is well short of an affair, but has admitted to seeing him (in a public place) since the separation request, and having feelings for him.


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Originally Posted by mfoss2212
She is maintaining it is well short of an affair, but has admitted to seeing him (in a public place) since the separation request, and having feelings for him.


Get the goods, mfoss. There are several ways to get proof. How does she communicate with him? Can you hire a PI? Can you tap her phone? If she has a PDA, you can install flexispy, [one version comes with GPS]; you can install a keylogger on her computer and put a GPS on her car and follow her. She is lying about the depth of her affair. Her affair is very entrenched, that is why she wants to "separate." If it was not very entrenched, she wouldn't be wanting to leave, I assure you.

It sounds like she believes announcing "separation" somehow negates the fact that this is adultery? to my amazement, occasionally we get wayward wives who ask for a "separation," move into the back bedroom and commence to committing adultery! They actually believe that saying "separation" justifies adultery. faint It is the most amazing MANIPULATION I have ever seen! However, adultery is a adultery. Married is married.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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