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Yeah, I may of thought what constitutes an "affair" differently before I was hit by it in my own life....

But NOW, I feel if you are doing something with the opposite sex (in person, on the internet, in writing or on the phone), that you would not be doing if your spouse was right there with you then it is an Affair.....


BW me-41
WH -39
DS - 9
married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered
DDay aug 2007
found MB dec 2007
Moved out april 2008
still seeing OW
Plan B

Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy. smile
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The following was posted by Dr Harley himself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zelmo (and others):

My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.

My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.

And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.

At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.

The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.


Thanks Dr Harley

I am quoting/highlighting the underlying principle that supports your recommendations.

Pep

Last edited by Pepperband; 11/10/09 12:52 PM. Reason: duh
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The affairing down thread motivated me to post this. It is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.



OW never had my H.

She saw him from afar�

Successful business man,

Loving, involved father,

Committed, caring husband�

And she wanted him.

She thought she could just take what belonged to me�love and commitment�and have it for herself.

But the moment she entered his life, that man disappeared.

She had a man who didn�t remotely resemble the man she had attempted to steal.

All the qualities that attracted her to him were gone because of her existence in his life.

And when OW was stripped away from his life, my husband returned.

She still has no idea what it feels like to be loved by my husband.

She�s never looked into his eyes and seen his soul.

She will never have a hint of the bond we have shared for 25 years.

She had nothing, and she has even less today.

I have my husband, the man I�ve loved for 25 years. My children have their father, the man they�ve know and loved for all their lives.

She won a few battles along the darkened road,

but WE won the war�

me, my husband, and our children.
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The following was written by Mark1952

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How to apply POJA when once spouse refuses to negotiate fairly or even at all:

Often a mistake is made when talking about POJA as it relates to negotiations in marriage. POJA never allows for convincing our spouse to go along with what we want if they do not agree with us. It requires finding a completely different solution that he or she can agree enthusiastically with.

When we negotiate with someone with whom we have a nonromantic relationship with such as a business client or vendor etc, it seems pretty simple to come to a place where we agree in principal with each other in order to each get what we want from the other. The problem we encounter when dealing with our spouse is that we are not simply using our intelligence but also have a strong emotional investment in the negotiations. The part of our brain that handles emotions does not think or process data, it merely responds to various things to allow us to have feelings. When we rely on these feelings to make decisions logic, data, reason all go out the window.

POJA is never for the purpose of getting our way at the expense of our spouse. On the contrary, it is supposed to prevent us from gaining at his or her expense. If we want one thing and our spouse wants something else, the POJA solution does not require that we convince our spouse of the merits of our choice or that we succumb to arguments in support of his or her choice. Rather the answer lies in searching out a choice yet undiscovered that we can both agree to enthusiastically.

Refusing to take advantage of our spouse by attempting to gain at his or her expense does not require his or her active participation. It is about our own actions and refusal to act independently over his or her objections. (IB is ALWAYS a Love Buster).

POJA is not designed to give us what we desire. It is supposed to keep us from hurting our spouse by taking at his or her expense. If we are in a state of intimacy and so willing to give even at our own expense it can also keep us from hurting ourselves, but seldom does that become necessary since usually we are all too willing to let our Taker run all negotiations.

Part of the problem involved in following POJA is understanding the need to completely overcome our Taker�s influence. But another aspect that makes negotiations difficult is that we tend to define two sides of the problem and each proposes a solution, one that solves the side we propose as being the problem. What we miss is that the definition of the problem is also subjective. We see it is my way or yours when in reality there may be many possible outcomes, some of which are much more agreeable to one or both of us than others. In most cases there may be more than one solution that meets the requirements of POJA and in still others POJA is not required since our spouse will simply acquiesce to our desires.

In order to make POJA work without our spouse actively negotiating to POJA decision with us requires simply that we ourselves do not negotiate unfairly nor act from independence against his or her wishes. That is, I can protect my spouse even if she or he is not willing to protect me from his or her own selfishness. Everybody always comes up with the example of what to do if decisions absolutely must be made. There may be times when life or death lies in the balance but honestly, how often is that actually the case? Disagreement most often occurs over mainly trivial stuff and so delaying the decision until I can find a choice to which my wife agrees enthusiastically is normally not only possible but easily accomplished and often ends up being a better decision for me as well since once I can overcome my emotions to examine the real problem rather than the smoke and mirrors version I have defined in order to get my own way, I find that the best choice for me is what is also best for her. Again, this does not require that she agree to use POJA since I am the one that is avoiding the Love Buster of IB by negotiating fairly even if she is unwilling to let POJA enter the conversation.

By deciding to follow POJA for ourselves we protect our spouse from being hurt by us both unknowingly and on purpose. By following POJA we keep from depleting our spouse�s Love Bank by avoiding Independent Behavior and also avoid doing things we already know would make him or her unhappy such as long discussions with past loves, spending more than we should on that new coat or car we can�t afford and even such things as an affair since if we choose to only do what our spouse is in enthusiastic agreement with we will certainly never allow ourselves to fall in love with someone else.

Deciding to follow POJA on our own is like so much else in behavioral psychology. We choose to do the right thing and often discover that others are affected positively by our choices. Sometimes they too change their choices. Even when they don�t, we can know that we did the right thing.

This topic is one that does not lend itself very well to an analogy. I tried numerous times to come up with one that fit without causing a serious leap in logic or ignoring some piece in order to make fit. The more I simplified the more convoluted the whole thing became. What I realized is that the answer is simply that we can decide to follow POJA no matter what our spouse does, since like most of what we talk about around here, it is our own actions that we ultimately have control over. It�s when we want to get our own way no matter what our spouse wants that POJA fails and that, boys and girls, husbands and wives, ladies and gentlemen is what POJA is meant to prevent.

Mark
LINK to original post/thread (in Recovery forum)

Mark also has another long post a few posts down from this one, that goes into more detail.

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BUMP

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Where are all my posts?

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wow!!!

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"I want you to listen to me for once in your life. You messed up big time, you broke the vows you made to me, you made to yourself, and you made to our families, not to mention God. All that has happened is a consequence of your choices and actions. If you don't like the consequences stop the behavior. I am standing here because I believe in forgiveness and our marriage. I will not stand here much longer being blamed for decisions I had no part in and no say in."


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From a 2000 thread.
The BW is "Crushed" ... this is her H's letter of apology to her.


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I just wanted to share this and see what you all thought....here goes.
I'm sorry is so easy to write, hard to say, and incredibly painful to feel. Compared to feeling truly sorry, writing it and saying it looks & feels so inadequate.

If I had never said I was sorry, and if I do not act as though I'm sorry in everyday life and especially how I treat you, writing this letter would mean nothing. In fact, under tose conditions, a mere letter would infuriate you.

In light of all this, I am more than confident of the sorrow I feel, that it shows and I have to continue to tell you I am sorry. So hopefully this letter only reinforces what is continually being expressed. My ultimate goal is to make you know that I am sorry (although I could never fully show you), by the way I live.

I'm sorry for so many things...I'm sorry for letting you down. You beleived in m e, I'm sorry for ruining your belief. For taking things that you were sure of , that I made you sure of, and turning them upside down.

I'm sorry for killing your good friend. The guy you confided in. The man you could go and talk to about something that upset you. The one you would call on when no one else would do. The one youshared yourself with. The one you were a freind to. The one you talked to for hours and hours when you were single, the one you belived enough in to walk down that aisle. "I'm sorry" doesn;t come close to how I feel for changing "I do" to "I didn't". i'll be shedding tears in my grave that only God will see.

I know this because my sorrow has buried me six feet in a casket made of regret, in a box where light and air is no more. A prisioner of the past. And everyday I am there now, And God sees the tears. And everytime I take a peak out above the ground, I see a tombstone with your name on it. And the only thing worse than being where I am is knowing where you are and knowing that I put you there.

I am sorry that I separted you from your friend, the one who loved you, was commited and dedicated to you. The one you were commited to and dedicated to. The one you stayed faithful to.

I'm sorry the person who cared for me, the person I love, I hurt more than anyone I've ever hurt in the world. I'm sorry for every time during the day and night you think about what I've done. I'm sorry for every tear you shed because your husband cheated on you, had sexual relations with other people. I'm sorry that I decieved you, lied to you, misled you, I'm sorry I was a hypocrite, acting like I was faithful and doing the right things, the honorable things, when I wasn't.

I'm so sorry that I took a person out of your heart, who you were so proud of, so appreciative of the way you thought he handled your illness. I'm sorry I crushed all the good feelings you had. I hate the fact I crushed all the warm feelings you enjoyed, the good and conforting thoughts you had.

I"m sorry I replaced the one you trusted with someone you no longer want to trust. I'm sorry I blindsided you with awful and shocking news that the person you thought would always uphold you in the tough times, kicked you when you were down. No matter what I now say and do, you know I let you down in the worst possible way. I'm sorry that there are no words to soothe your pain, no magic wand to change the past.

I'm sorry for the humiliation I've caused you. I'm sorry that you ever have any thoughts at all that you are inadequate. I hate that. I know they are very painful thoughts for you to have. I'm sorry that your friend treated you like an eenemy.

I'm sorry for every second I pursued another women. I'm sorry for every second I flirted. I'm sorry for every second I was with them. I'm sorry for every second I touched them. I'm sorry for every second I plotted to be with them. I'm sorry for every second I allowed myself to be even around them, I'm sorry I ever met them. I'm sorry that I ever looked at them or spoke to them. I'm sorry I ever gave any hint or suggestion that I was interested in anyone or anything other than you. I'm sorry that you live with the knowledge that I did every one of these things. I'm sorry I violated the trust you had in me regarding these things.

I'm sorry I took my body and mind and put myself in a sexual sewer. I'm sorry that I had inappropriate and destructive realationships with other people who were somebody's daughter, mom, finance, wife,friend,sister,aunt,neighbor,cousin.

I'm sorry that I allowed other women to have inappropriate and destructive relationships with your husband, our kids dad, my parents son, my brothers and sisters brother, my aunt's nephew, my neices uncle, our neighbor's neighbor,( he names them by name) a hockey and baseball team's coach, a whole bunch of young people's former youth pastor and a churchful of people's former assistant pastor, your parent's son-in-law your brothers brother-in-law , with someone who was many peoples friend, christian brother and neighbor.

I'm sorry you had to see a moron, a loser, an idiot throw away his life, break all his dreams, ruin his wifes life and break all her dreams, disgrace his family, disgrace his wife, disgrace his kids.

I'm sorry I destroyed the fact we were faithful to one another, destroyed the specialness you felt making love to your husband. I hate all those things so much. I'm sorry that you have to feel pain for all these things when you know it's not fair. I'm sorry for all the injustice you've incurred.

I'm sorry that I dug a hole and put you in it and took away your light and air. I'm sorry that I at least temporiraly ruined our lives, your life. I'm sorry that I let our daughter down so bad. I'm sorry for all the ways this has affected her. I'm sorry she has a dad who is such a terrible, awful, rotten man. I'm sorry that I'm not the dad she deserves and never could be. I'm sorry she thought she had a great dad, that her mommy had a great husband. I'm sorry I can no longer tell her to marry a man like her dad. I can never say those words to her again, ever. I'm sorry that when I dance with her to Daddy's little girl, there will be rears of eternal regret falling from her father's eyes down onto her beautiful hair. I'm sorry that's just the way it is and there is nothing I can do to change it.

I'm sorry that you will never feel pride about me again. I'm sorry for the doubt you feel in everything I say or do. I'm sorry you dont feel confident or secure in a future. I'm sorry your not enjoying the simple pleasures you normally would, spending time enjoying thing you normally would.

I'm sorry you dont look forward to being with your husband. I'm sorry you dont miss him when he isn't home. I'm sorry you dont love him. I'm sorry you don't feel good about him, that your not happy being seen with him. I'm sorry you think you never knew him.

I'm sorry for every moment I was angry or cross with you when I was mad and disgusted at myself. I'm sorry fir every moment I didn't repent and turn from my wicked ways. I'm sorry I didn't repent after the first time, the second, etc.

Many days I'm sorry I was ever born, because today you would be happier, better off with someone treating you right, taking better care of you, with someone who stuck by you when you were sick, with someone who could give you the things you want, the affection you deserve.

I'm sorry for everyday of our lives that I wasn't a better man, that I didn't treat you right, didn't talk to you right, didn't uphold you, support you, lift you up, give you hope, make you know how special you are, every day I didn't somehow inspire you by my deeds to be a better person yourself. I'm sorry for every tim e I've ever hurt you. I'm sorry for not saying the right thing, thinking of you in little ways that would make you happy. I'm sorry for every moment you don't enjoy life because of the misery I've caused. I'm sorry, so sorry, for every moment you've had to feel, hurt, lonely, abandoned, crushed, defeted, lost, helpless, hopless, disgusted, discounted, forgotten, spit on, punched, kicked, laughed at, put down, beat up, broken, cheap, neglected, run over, spun around, disoriented, left out, depressed, sad, tearful, angry, bitter...etc.

I'm sorry I borke my vows to you. I'm sorry I didn't do what I promised. I'm sorry I wasn't man enough, wasn't good enough, didn't have character enough, strength enough, courage enough, belief enough, perserverence enough to do the things I said I would. I'm sorry I've failed at being a husband, a father, a man, a human being.

I'm sorry I broke God's heart. I'm sorry I hurt people He loves. I'm sorry that I became the man the prophet described to David, who hurt innocent people. I'm sorry I had to hear God say "Thou art the man".

I'm sorry I put so much sin between God and myself, between you and myself. I'm sorry I broke the two most important bonds I ever had. I'm sorry that, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, I defilied God's temple, because wherever I go whatever sin I do, God's presence is also brought to that place. I defiled His Word, His Law, I took all that was good and did evil. I'm sorry I showed contempt for the both of you. I'm sorry I brought Him shame.

I'm sorry I sinned against you and Him, I'm sorry I didn't repent immediately and completely, I'm sorry that when I finally told you, I didn't say everything, I'm sorry I withheld some things. I'm sorry I put you through the whole process.

I'm sorry when I wake up, when I work, when I play, when I eat, when I fast, when I pray, when I laugh, when I cry, when I'm alone, when I'm with you, when I talk, when I am silent. I'm sorry when I run, when I walk, rest, think, meditate, listen, understand, when I don't understand, when I hope, when I fear, when I'm in despair, when I'm uplifted, I am sorry when you do all these things, when you anthing, when you do nothing, I am sorry.

I am sorry right now. I will be sorry tommorow and eferyday and night after tommorrow, through sunshine, rain, every season, every year, every moment, every breath, I will always be sorry until God Himslef wipes away every tear. I am sorry that if I run over a mountain, or wim an ocean, I can't change what I've done and what it's done to you.

I'm sorry enough to give you my dollar , my only dollar everyday, knowing I don't have a million days. (end of letter)

The last sentence is refering to our counseler giving the analogy of him owing me a million dollars and he can only pay me one dollar a day. Wow, quite a letter huh?
Link to original 2000 thread - by Crushed


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Not2fun .... hurray

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Ladies and especially Gentlemen......

This has come before and more often in the past few months. Newbies have been dealt a debilitating blow of finding out their S is having an affair. They come here looking for advice and quickly move into Plan A. Time passes, Plan B is the obvious next step but for a million reasons they seem frozen to go there. We will hear all kinds of reasonings such as......

"I cannot afford to move out. What do I do?"

"I asked the WS to leave and they refused. What do I do?"

"I won't leave the kids. What should I do?"

So we tell them to go to Plan B. They come up with a gazillion reasons why this won't work (which them most long standing VETS drop off the threads because they get frustrated with newbies not following Dr. H's PLANS.....), so then the ask the dreaded.......
How do I Plan B while still living with my WS

The answer is........
YOU DON'T!!!!!

So I'm going to review what Plan B is and isn't......

Plan B is Avoid ALL Contact with the Wayward Spouse until the Affair has Ended

The purpose of Plan B is to give the WS a taste of what is to come IF a divorce actually takes place (pg. 79 SAA).

In Plan B, the BS needs to be as far as away from the WS and the affair. This sometimes DOES mean that the BS needs to move out. Dr. H even says he has gone as far as recommending moving to another city or state (pg. 80 SAA)!!!!! Dr. H also recommends the BS seek legal counsel for advice as to what they can legally do.

So folks, for review......

Plan B is to LEAVE your WS.....to remove yourself from the drama, angst, and disgustingness of the affair. To remove yourself from the mental anguish that the WS inflicts upon the BS......

To put this plan into motion one needs to

A. Get legal counsel. In my opinion, this should ALWAYS be done in Plan A. A WS thinks of nothing in spouting off legal mumbo-jumbo in order to keep the BS in line, aka to keep the BS from interfering with the affair, to keep BS from snooping (I KNOW this one all too well), keep the BS from exposure.....the BS's best defense from this is to educate themselves by getting real counsel from a REAL lawyer....(usually the WS is spouting off facts that they got second hand......not from a real lawyer.......)

B. Secure living arrangements. Men, pay attention to what I am about to say.......you may have to move out in order to go into a Plan B. This does not make you weak. This does not make you a doormat. This does not diminish your manhood one bit. Do whatever is necessary. Find a month-to-month lease on a apartment......find a stable friend or family member......
You think you can't afford this? Well, you will end up in divorce before long and you will be facing this VERY senario anyway. Remember the purpose of Plan B......to give the WS a taste of divorce life.
Do a search on Mortarman. Read up on his very beginnings here. He sold his HOUSE!!!!!.....Mimi, another great VET, sold her house as well. This situation is doable. Hard to implement? Yes......but very doable.......BRAINSTORM till you find a solution. It may not be easy but NECESSARY for your own sanity......

3. Secure all documents for your children. Get your own copies of birth certificates, SS cards, health records and school records. Who knows if you'll need them, but better to have them rather than scrambling around when you do.

4. Set up an intermitary. Some one who can handle all communications. Some one who can filter the facts from crap. This person needs to be able to do this without taking sides.

5. Plan B letter. The one from SAA is perfect and to the point. It is a love letter giving the WS a way back to the marriage. There is extensive samples of Plan B letter in the Notable Post section on the forum menu page.....

These are very basic, simple things to follow.........but WORK to implement. But let me tell, if you aren't up to the work of Plan B, you aren't going to up to the work of a TRUE recovery.

Now, about the children.......this is for you MEN.....

The biggest fear I see lately is leaving the kids. In case you all haven't noticed this is 2010. The courts recognize that the best solution for the kids of divorce is for BOTH parents to be involved. The thing is if you skip Plan B, your chances of divorce is pretty darn good and then you are going to be without your kids 50% of the time anyway. By doing this whole "Plan-B-while-living-with-the-WW", you are only prolonging the inevitable. The very thing you fear is going to happen anyway. The only difference is you are going to come out of the other end more mentally scarred, abused, and bitter leaving your kids with not ONE unstable parent but TWO. So now your kids are faced with having no safe haven. IF you really want the best for your children, you have to care for yourself first. It's just like when flight attendants tell you "In an emergency, place the oxygen mask on yourself FIRST, then assist your children....". If you don't secure your own mental state, you will be in NO CONDITION to secure your childrens.......


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clap clap clap Way to go Not!!


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Hope Slams her OW:

Here is one for the BS's...

Had an "moment" this morning with PP.

Went to court security here for a parking ticket. Long line..walk into the office foyer packed with people and lo and behold who is sitting there PP. She has a magazine in her lap, I turn my back to her and sign in.

When I turn around there she is holding the magazine up so that I would see her ring.... All thoughts of "turn the other cheek" went out the window.

First the ring is gaudy and cheap like her. It looks like a cocktail ring which is appropriate for her.

I take a couple steps and smile and say "PP let me see your ring".

She puts her hand down and then I said, "I figured if I paid for your ring I want to see what I was buying.".

She starts to stammer "I don't know what you mean".

I said "well as you know I gave XWH 5K from the D to buy a car for DD16 and now DD has no car and I heard he took my money and bought you a ring".

she started turning shades of purple and red starting with her plastic neck up to her eye lift.

PP says "that is between you and XH, I had nothing to do with any of this and I am not involved."

I responded with "You had nothing to do with the breakup of our M. It was no longer the 2 of us when you became the 3rd person and had an A with my H. We were very much M when you went after my husband -- your boss. You had everything to do with this and now because you are wearing a ring you think that makes it ok? You now have my leftovers. I hope you will be happy with that".

Sweet smile and walk out.

Never saw a room get so quiet. It was another "EF Hutton" moment. The woman who was sitting next to her by the end of the conversation her mouth dropped open.

I waited outside till my turn. Funny part is she would have had to walk by me to leave. She must have jumped out of a window.

OP are pigs.
_________________________
Me 53, WAH 50, M 22 years
D16, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09

Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."

Since Pep has been on extended Break, I thought I would bring this over.


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I love it, accountability is sweet...........
Sorry you had to live through that but I'm proud of you


BW 56
WH 57
Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
DS 23, DS 25
D-Day Nov 23/09
NC Mar 1/10
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Jessie:

Start from the beginning of this thread.

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Originally Posted by lousygolfer
Hope Slams her OW:

Here is one for the BS's...

Had an "moment" this morning with PP.

Went to court security here for a parking ticket. Long line..walk into the office foyer packed with people and lo and behold who is sitting there PP. She has a magazine in her lap, I turn my back to her and sign in.

When I turn around there she is holding the magazine up so that I would see her ring.... All thoughts of "turn the other cheek" went out the window.

First the ring is gaudy and cheap like her. It looks like a cocktail ring which is appropriate for her.

I take a couple steps and smile and say "PP let me see your ring".

She puts her hand down and then I said, "I figured if I paid for your ring I want to see what I was buying.".

She starts to stammer "I don't know what you mean".

I said "well as you know I gave XWH 5K from the D to buy a car for DD16 and now DD has no car and I heard he took my money and bought you a ring".

she started turning shades of purple and red starting with her plastic neck up to her eye lift.

PP says "that is between you and XH, I had nothing to do with any of this and I am not involved."

I responded with "You had nothing to do with the breakup of our M. It was no longer the 2 of us when you became the 3rd person and had an A with my H. We were very much M when you went after my husband -- your boss. You had everything to do with this and now because you are wearing a ring you think that makes it ok? You now have my leftovers. I hope you will be happy with that".

Sweet smile and walk out.

Never saw a room get so quiet. It was another "EF Hutton" moment. The woman who was sitting next to her by the end of the conversation her mouth dropped open.

I waited outside till my turn. Funny part is she would have had to walk by me to leave. She must have jumped out of a window.

OP are pigs.
_________________________
Me 53, WAH 50, M 22 years
D16, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09

Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."

Since Pep has been on extended Break, I thought I would bring this over.

WOW LG, thanks for making my day...Notable Quotes! I am honored. I will have to scratch this off from my "Bucket List". laugh


Me 55, XWH 53, M 22 years
D17, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09

Quote: "First thing you do is pray; when there is nothing else to do, continue to pray."
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Written by Schoolbus.
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.


Link to original (May 23, 2010)


Link


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your comment about your WH wanting to be "in control" of everything right now is really correct. He is working on the weakest link in the chain - your 14 year old. It is not a surprise to me that he is doing this. He understands teenagers, and knows that they tend to support the person they perceive as the underdog, or the person they believe to be "seeking their happiness". Chances are he has positioned himself with her as both of these - to embolden his stance and to get her on "his side". He is a pig, because he is manipulating her and HE KNOWS IT.

The way to fight this is with questions back to her.

When she comes to you standing up for him, do not fight or argue with her. Only ask her questions, and when she responds, don't argue - just nod your head and say things like, "I see" or "Maybe your perceptions are missing another point of view". Say nothing more, and do not engage her in any discussions regarding what she believes as her dad's needs or wants.

Your questions should be open-ended, and allow for her to state what she things aloud - because teens have a need to express ideas and hear their own opinions on things from their own mouths. Additionally, they want to be "heard", not corrected, guided, lectured, etc. If you present her with this open forum type of systematic listening, she will ultimately hear herself arguing "the wrong side"....and come to understand - without any help from anyone else - exactly what her father is doing and why it is wrong. You do not need to guide her, lecture her, or even stand your ground. It will amaze you.

When she stands up for him and chastises you for doing anything through this process, or criticises your stance:

Questions to ask sound like this...

I hear your disagreement with my approach. What would your approach be?

I understand you believe he is pursuing his happiness (or whatever the soup of the day is!), what do you believe happiness to be?

You're telling me that you believe it was incorrect for me to _____. Maybe you have heard of other ways to do this, and would like to offer me a suggestion for another way. Tell me your idea so I can hear what you have to say.

I can tell you are upset about ________. I want to know your ideas on what might repair things, or ways to better handle this situation.



After she responds, you only say things like:

Hmmmm.

I understand why you believe that.

Your life experience would probably lead you to believe that, so I do understand where you are coming from.

Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. I guess we just disagree on this one.

I know that for now you are torn between me and dad. I love you, and at some point maybe you will want to hear why I feel the way I do. For now, I am happy you were able to share your feelings and ideas with me.



Don't engage in useless fighting with her. Everything you say and do goes straight back to him, and IT WILL BE TWISTED. Guaranteed. During your Plan B, you can actually Plan A him by being a terrific mother, and by working as strongly and lovingly as you can with your kids, and fighting to love DD14 through this mess and his terrible influence.


She will ultimately thank you for it.

And yes, I know, it is just one more stressful job to do - that you never would have had to do if not for his affair.


SB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GREAT ADVICE for a tricky situation !

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1. Click on "topic options" tab above any post on the thread.

2. The last choice is " switch to thread mode" , click on that one.

3. I have tried to make a description for each entry that will help me quickly find the topic or the poster I am looking for.

4. The posts made by "pepperbands" ( with an s at the end) are not mine.

5. If you add a post as a notable, try to describe it in the title.
If possible, link to the original thread where the " notable" was found.


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Originally Posted by pepperband
Written by Schoolbus.
How to deal with a teenager who is adopting the Wandering Parent's point of view.

Excellant timing for this post. DD15 seems to EAT UP any crap WxH throws to her. I am always the unreasonable villian.

We just recently had a blowup where he threatened to call the sheriff (he had no standing at all) if I didn't do what he wanted.

I do not respond to him at all - this was an issue between DD15 and I and her cell phone (he considered it "stolen goods" because I took her phone from her).

I also do not discuss with her his tantrums - I stay calm and continue my course.

It is incredibly frustrating, though, to always be treated like her dad is so superior and the ultimate parent. While I do everything for her.

Thank you for posting this........


Where can I find the thread for this post?

Last edited by wildhorses74; 06/15/10 12:26 PM.
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Link to original Marcos post


Originally Posted by markos
Hey, GreenMile. I can really see a lot of similarities in the way you and I react to things, so I thought I might be able to point some things out in ways that would be helpful to you. Even if it's not helpful to you, maybe writing some of the thoughts will be helpful to me. smile

I really, really empathize with that feeling that every time there is a downturn it feels like what your wife is saying is definitive and final and there is no hope. I get that feeling a lot, and if I let it happen, it can make me completely crazy, make me do absolutely STUPID stuff, and make me do things that absolutely HURT my wife. Then the next thing I know, the reason there is no hope is ME!

Listen, she is likely to use language that to you sounds like "I'm through with you and this marriage and this recovery," when what she means is "I'm through with this discussion because it is hurting me." She is also likely to say things out of emotion in the heat of the moment that she won't feel like later. Have you seen this happen? Remind yourself of this in the heat of the moment; let her vent. It's not the make or break moment for your marriage.

And listen, you've got to face the fact that she's always got the choice to end it. What will you do if she does make that decision? In order to avoid turning into that quivering bowl full of helly, you've got to come to grips with this fact and face it with a measure of acceptance. You need her badly, but you need to become a person who would be capable of standing on your own. If you had a plan for personal recovery in the event of DWG deciding to be through with you, a plan that involved yourself and your sons and your personal recovery, then maybe you would react with less fear when you feel like your marriage is threatened. Yes, it would be very sad for you if DWG were to pull the plug. But, you would keep breathing. You would still have a lot to live for.

When things get rough, the most important issue is THE WAY YOU HANDLE IT. I�m sure you know that, but your instincts about how to handle it are going to be totally, totally wrong. You want recovery to continue, you want the good times you two are starting to experience to continue, you feel like those things are threatened by this obstacle (and they are), and so you desperately start trying to MAKE the obstacle go away. DO NOT DO THIS. This is the wrong way to handle it. From your point of view you are just trying to make things better. You feel like in fact you are just trying to help your wife. But that desperation and that attempt to MAKE things get better makes her feel controlled!!! That makes the problem worse!!! In fact, whether you realize it or not, you are trying to control your wife�s thinking. It�s the classic Disrespectful Judgment, and it�s a Love Buster here just like it is always. A massive Love Buster. Your instincts are gonna kill you here if you don�t get them under control and quit following them.

And I hate that because it sets progress back so much.
But take heart. It is not too late in the game for you to learn new habits and learn how to not follow these instincts. It�s just new habits and skills for you to learn as far as how to react when there appears to be a threat to recovery. (A conflict, though you might not realize at the beginning that conflict is occurring; you�re likely to simply perceive a threat to recovery/marriage, and not notice there�s a conflict until you guys are into massive Love Busters. We rationalize our own controlling LBs (SD, DJ, AO), and that means they appear rational to us so we don�t even notice them!!!)

I empathize with some of the things you are saying about Extreme Precautions. Long before Marriage Builders, before I even met my wife, I put in my own �extreme precautions� (using a different name) to avoid sexual behaviors I regarded as wrong. And I had to do a lot of talking to myself, basically personal coaching. �I am a new man, I am not the man I was before, I am strong and have walls in place that cannot be broken through,� etc. They way you talk about your EPs sounds a lot like the way I talked to myself back then, and it�s probably a great way to encourage yourself and keep those EPs strong. But it�s no way to talk to a woman. It�s not going to reassure her at all. How do you help her understand you were not that guy you were all those years? You DON�T do it the same way you convince yourself of that fact. Your thought is actually a rationalization of wanting to CONTROL what she�s thinking. You think it�s helpful, but that desire to control her thinking is more damaging than you can possibly imagine.

What you need is a plan you can stick to and fall back on. A written plan for yourself with three aspects: your extreme precautions, your plan to overcome Love Busters (especially including your plan for eliminating control/abuse LBs: SD, DJ, AO, all attempts to control her and her thinking), and your plan to meet her Emotional Needs. You probably already have all this. (If not, get it!) Your plan is to be continually refined as you become more of an expert at all of these. When obstacles come, you remind yourself �I have a plan for success. I will keep following my plan. I won�t try to control her here and bring her along; I�ll just fall back on my plan.� This will give you confidence and take away that fear. Because of your increasing understanding of your wife, your plan is nearly guaranteed to succeed, if you follow it faithfully with continuing refinements, and IF SHE LETS YOU. The trick is she doesn�t have to let you, and you have to accept that. So you tell yourself �I�ll stick with my plan until the very end. I�ll go down with the ship, if necessary. Even if she starts trying to get out, I�ll continue to offer compensation by working at becoming an expert at meeting her emotional needs, having no tolerance for Love Busters on my part, and taking Extreme Precautions to avoid any outside threat to our marriage.� (Though it probably won�t come to going down the ship. But if it did, your plan is to keep on following-through, even up to two years after she�s gone. If you will aim out that far, you will likely hit your target and it won�t be an issue.)

I made a discovery recently. My discovery is about the words �defensive� and �defensiveness.� My discovery is this: I always thought that �being defensive� was about my feelings. It was a feeling I needed to learn to control. And if my wife thought I was being defensive, well, really she was judging my feelings, and this is a subjective thing with multiple opinions and points of view.

Turns out I was wrong. If you�re defending yourself, you�re defensive, no matter how you feel. smile Same for me, here. I gotta quit defending myself, and so do you. Women tend to word things in ways that make men look at and question their feelings (and then proudly proclaim that the feelings are right, because they are), but men need things worded in terms of behavior: what should I do? What should I stop doing? What you should do is stop defending yourself, entirely. Like Pep said, there�s nothing to defend here. If she doesn�t like something, you�ll quit doing it, period, without even trying to negotiate a way to do it. If she wants to know something, you�ll tell her. If you don�t remember, you�ll simply say you don�t remember. If you remember later, you�ll go back and tell her. Be honest. Always be honest. Just be honest and let her decide if your answer is something to worry about or not, and how to react to it.

What should you do instead? You focus on her and her feelings. That�s what thoughtfulness is!

Women, especially your wife, don�t want to teach you how to do this. That�s the shortcut approach anyway. You�re obligated to learn it even if she won�t help you. It�s still your responsibility. And she does NOT have it in her to help you! Even if she did, she�d probably be ineffective, because she speaks Woman, and you speak Man. All she�d tell you is how to feel, and you already feel that way; you need to know how to ACT.

So, here�s how to act: when your wife comes to you with ANYTHING she wants to know, anything that�s wrong, anything that indicates a conflict, anything that smells to you like a threat to recovery: FIRST, make sure you have an understanding of what happened, what�s worrying her, what you did, etc. SECOND, achieve empathy by understanding why she is hurt: �This is how you got hurt?� �This is why you got hurt?� �When stuff is moved around in my car, it worries you because it looks like somebody has been in there?� Validate her on the fact that she got hurt. Don�t do or say anything to give her the idea that you think she should not be hurt or would like for her to get over being hurt quickly. (No matter how much you do feel for her pain and want her to feel better. This is not the time for apologies.) Both of these steps are all about being a good conversationalist and using conversation to investigate and understand your spouse. Seek understanding. THIRD, express apology: �I am sorry that I gave you cause to worry by moving things around in my car!�

No defensiveness, at all. That means no defending yourself, no matter how you feel. We don�t need to determine who is right or wrong; what matters is her feelings! Defending yourself even includes these statements, which my crappy instincts would have told me sound thoughtful: �I didn�t know� �I didn�t realize,� or their cousin �How was I supposed to know?� It�s all about her and what she feels at this point, not about you and what you know.

LATER (possibly MUCH LATER if she is still reeling from the hurt), offer to have some discussion and brainstorming and negotiation on how to make sure it never happens again.

Read this great article, and you�ll see a perfect image of how you came off to your wife. (Painful for me to read, as I know I�ve been doing this for six years.) http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8507_fft.html

You wanted to tell your wife she has nothing to worry about. This instinct doesn�t help, because essentially you are telling her not to be hurt. Ow. When you cause a wound (which you did by moving stuff in your car), tend to the bleeding instead, using the process I outlined above. (Steve Harley gave it to me on the phone, so it must be good. It looked like liquid gold to me, like just the piece I was missing.) You don�t reassure her by reassuring her.

Finally, I�d say it doesn�t matter much that you have DWG�s blessing to be in this band. It sure looks risky, and she looks reluctant. Do you think she�s still ENTHUSIASTIC about it?

Why can�t you guys spend 100% of your time together?

By the way, don�t be surprised your wife can remember exactly where everything was in the car. Women�s brains are more connected than ours (I tell my wife their brains are more melted than ours) and they notice details like that.

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