It bothers me greatly that this "expert" is still flogging the old myth that affairs are caused by something missing in the marriage.<p>Now, I can see where that might be true in some cases, where both people just suck at marriage and one or both of them thinks that having an affair is the cure for feeling so lousy.<p>But how many cases have we seen here where there was NOT anything "missing" from the marriage, and though it had its ups and downs as ALL marriages do it was actually a good and stable and happy one? Where one spouse apparently just decides that if some is good, more is better, and sees nothing wrong with having a little extra on the side?<p>After my own experience, and reading about so many more, I sure wish the experts would point out that an awful lot of people just *love* having BOTH. It's great being married at home and single at work, or wherever, and that's exactly what most of these people are doing.<p>Most aren't looking to get out of their marriages. They desperately try to hang on to both the spouse and the OP(s) for as long as they possibly can, because having both is what they really want.<p>Great for them. Sure stinks for the rest of us.<p>Psycho_B***h

pb<p>I have not seen all of the parts of the series and did not get a chance to see today's, which maybe you are commenting on?<p>But I believe that while I was happy and felt nothing missing in our marriage, that there must have been something missing for my WW. <p>Now, you can call that whatever you want. I thought I was doing a good job at meeting her needs but come to find out---I guess not. In her case I think we now know what was missing and maybe that could be fixed down the road if we continue our relationship.<p>It's true that whatever you call it, it sure does stink for those fo us who are BSs...<p>Just my $0.02...<p>E

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Psycho_b Wrote:
Most aren't looking to get out of their marriages. They desperately try to hang on to both the spouse and the OP(s) for as long as they possibly can, because having both is what they really want.<hr></blockquote><p>PB,<p>IMHO, in a percentage of situations there are affairs that are caused by the WS NOT protecting themselves and their marriage from adultery ... and I feel very strongly that they have a "WANT" as opposed to a need. The Want being CAKE on both sides of the Fence while they are watering the Green Grass somewhere other than home.<p>Jo<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I don't believe there has to something wrong either. Our problem was he was working an off shift and we were not together during the week. OW was there during the week and I had weekends. He was happy with our marriage, just wasn't with me enough. She put an offer out there for him and he was lonely and took her up on it. Had he worked the same shift and was with me this wouldn't of happened. He quit the immediately and is with me, he didn't even go through withdrawal because he wanted to end it for a long time but she wouldn't leave him alone. I'm sure having the best of both worlds kept it going too. <p>In the Monogamy Myth, it is explained very well how some people who have happy marriages and love their spouse very much can have affairs. It doesn't just have to do with the people. It involves other factors as well.<p>sty

I respectfully disagree, psycho_b. In fact, after three years on this board, I would go so far as to say that the success stories are largely told by those BS's who were willing to face up to, if not things they were doing wrong in the marriage, at least things that were missing, or that they used to do but stopped doing.<p>Where people say "I never did anything wrong, I was the perfect wife, I cleaned and cooked and dressed like a Victoria's Secret Model, and..." yada yada, I would guess that THOSE are the BS's not equipped to make the kind of changes that can change a marriage.<p>People are tempted all the time. We're married, we're not dead. What makes one person susceptible to that temptation and another not? It's not "morals" or "being a Christian". Plenty of religious people here have strayed. <p>No, it's more a question of how close they feel to the spouse; how contented they are overall in the marriage.<p>Most of us stop after a while doing the things that made our spouses fall in love with us in the first place. No, life isn't always going to be like the first meeting, but we do have to work at it.<p>Any time I read a posting here that says "I never did anything wrong", I feel like saying, "Then you don't have a clue." Anytime I see someone say they know what their spouse's needs are, I feel they really don't.<p>My mother lost her husband a year and a half ago to cancer, and to this day she will tell you that the most important things to him were that she packed his lunch every day and made him dinner every night. The fact that she screamed at him relentlessly and nothing he ever did was good enough didn't matter. Well, if those were his only needs, how come he rejected her in bed?<p>This, in my mind, is the KEY to everything we learn on this site. All the Plan A, Plan B, all that stuff is about LEARNING WHAT WE CAN DO TO BE A BETTER SPOUSE. As soon as you close off your mind and say "I am perfect. I never did anything wrong", you're cutting off a road to recovery.

D&C, I have never said I was a perfect spouse. No one is a perfect spouse. But I tried to be as perfect as I could for *him,* and he will tell you to this day that he was never unhappy with me or with his marriage.<p>Some people simply love having it all and see no reason why they shouldn't have it all. Who's it gonna hurt? His definition of success was having the supportive (and trusting and unquestioning) wife at home, and plenty of female pals at work -- and never were the two worlds ever supposed to meet.<p>After endless amounts of soul-searching, the only need of his I can say I did not adequately meet was his need for Admiration -- but as I have said before, I am only one person. I cannot possibly compete with six or eight or ten or twelve adoring bimboes at work who are free to suck up to him all day long and sigh about how he's their knight in shining armor.<p>He was very, very happy with this arrangement -- me at home and his suck-ups at work -- until I finally started listening to my gut and started asking questions.<p>Now everything has gone straight to hell, for one reason and one reason only: I will no longer stay out of his personal life and this makes him violently angry.<p>But this is my fault? This happened because I didn't "meed his needs?" He sure as hell wasn't meeting mine when I sat home alone while he was "mentoring" his pack of bimboes and sluts, but he couldn't have been happier. We'd go off for honeymoon weekends and then Monday morning he'd pick up right where he left off with them. It was *exactly* the life he wanted and he saw no reason to change a thing.<p>Ripping my guts out just wasn't enough of a reason for him to change anything. And it still isn't enough of a reason for him to do what is necessary to fix it.<p>Resilient, thank you for pointing out that there is a huge difference between a "need" and a "want." He needs a wife and family. He wants a harem of co-workers and strippers. I simply cannot compete.<p>Psycho_B***h

I agree with Psycho_B completely. Nobody can possibly be everything perfect for their spouse, that's why relationships require constant work and maintenance. In my situation, my WH wanted to have his cake and eat it too. I was at home being a "near perfect" wife and he had a bimbo at work being well...a bimbo. He had it all. <p>Throughout our 6 year marriage, I've asked him periodically how he felt about our marriage and if anything was missing. His response was to always tell me that nothing was wrong and that he was perfectly happy. I believe that the invitation was extended and he thought "hey...why not" nobody needs to know. So, I think it comes down to a matter of morals, ethics, and character. Some in that situation would walk away upholding their marriage vows. Others see it as an opportunity to get their kicks. I don't see there being a formula or pattern. Some people have more personal accountability than others. <p>I've gotten through this horrible ordeal by focusing on my own behavior. I pitty my WS. While I know I am not perfect, I gave him no reason to go elsewhere. He admits this, too. It was just there for the taking. I, too, am human and could stray, but I am mentally and morally stronger than that. At one time, I thought he was, too.<p>My WS is deeply sorry for what happened almost two years ago. I think he learned a lesson. We are expecting our first child in December. Since we've learned this, I can especially see the remorse he feels. While we are in the long process of recovery, it's a shame that it had to happen at all. He is able to see now what could have been lost.<p>I know this was long--sorry for my babbling [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Just because a WS doesn't think there's anything wrong in a marriage doesn't mean there isn't, and doesn't mean there aren't things you can do better.<p>To this very day, my H will tell you that we have had a 100% great marriage 100% of the time. He STILL sees nothing wrong with having a friendship with another woman where you sneak around. Even after I gave him a 5-page letter detailing what was wrong with it.<p>BUT....<p>I did change things about myself. Recreational companionship was important to him that year. He liked going for long hikes in the woods early in the morning, so I started going with him. I stopped punishing him in the sack because I felt fat. I started putting him first, and I got very quick results.<p>I think that especially when the WS is a man, you're less likely to get an admission that there was anything wrong. You're more likely to get "It just happened" or "I don't know", because most men aren't in touch with their feelings enough to know when they lack something.

I'll chime in here again ...<p>Harley has written that some males are not comfortable with admitting they have "needs" which are not being met. That their perception is a man is weak if they are in need or needy.<p>I forget where I read that, I think it was in the last MB News Letter. I'll look around and post it.<p>I'm not trying to play both sides of the fence on this subject, I just believe that there are situations where an A was not necessarily due to unmet needs. Again, Harley has also written where some affairs may sprout from one spouse failing to protect themselves or their marriage from an A, aside from unmet needs. I'll look for that info as well and post it here.<p>Jo<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I agree with D&C. Most affairs are the result of unmet Emotional Needs. That said, it doesn't mean that all are. There are always exceptions. But the vast majority fall into that category. <p>-HD

My point of view is somewhere between Psycho_b and Dazed. My W has definitely shown that she loves having her cake and eating it too. Despite her admission that I have met many EN's exceedingly well: commitment, financial support, companionship, kindness, sexual fulfillment (excepting the "emotional element") etc. and that I'm the "right one" for her, the grand prize (not the consolation prize)...she still saw nothing wrong in having occasional lunch dates (secret--of course) with our children's piano teacher (engaged at the time, by the way).<p>I realize that I have room to be more affectionate and be more honest with my emotions. But hell, part of me wonders why she simply couldn't have just seriously addressed these issues like a mature adult, for the sake of our marriage. And that she would believe I would have been willing to make a few conscious changes, which are really not all that difficult to implement anyway. Where was the respect and consideration?<p>Instead, her "solution" was to just simply indulge herself while continuing to enjoy what I provided. And then she can cop the attitude, like "well, you can't be like the OM...it's hard-wired, etc." To her I would like to respond, "well, a womanizer is hard-wired too--to hurt you!" Sorry for the off-tangent rant.

Sty "Monogamy Myth" is this a book? If so who is the author?

Just as in the human population as a whole, you are going to have those individuals who have an entitlement complex, those individuals who are high-maintenance, whatever the case may be.<p>I believe the Harley model is generally correct. We are all wired for affairs. We all set the stage for the affair, even if our part was marrying a high-maintenance person with an entitlement complex for whom we, as one person, could never be enough. Even in a case like that, self-confrontation and examination is necessary.<p>No one can meet another's most important ENs perfectly at all times and in all situations. Sometimes a spouse may have all the will and knowledge of the principles of MB and be unable to carry it out effectively because of the interference of other life events. That is when it falls to the shoulders of the in-need spouse to protect the M from his/her own weaknesses.<p>For an affair-proof M, you need both--ENs being met AND both spouses protecting the M from their own weaknesses--Dr. Harley's rules of care and protection. It only takes the WS's failure to protect to result in an A. There may or may not be failure in any other area of the M.<p>Does a rape result from what the victim is wearing or where she was when it happened? She may have been doing any number of inadvisable things prior to the rape, but the rapist made the decision to rape. The rape victim will definitely examine everything that happened prior to the rape to try to understand why it happened and what she could have done differently to prevent it.<p>Some rape victims are not doing anything "wrong". They are perhaps sleeping in their own bed. In retrospect, they can see where maybe bars on the windows, a security system, or other extraordinary measures may have helped prevent the violation, but the only sure way for rape to be prevented is for the rapist to choose not to do it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HurtingDeeply:
<strong> Most affairs are the result of unmet Emotional Needs. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Steve Harley does not share your opinion. He says that affairs are the result of the WS's failure to protect the BS and the M against their own weaknesses.<p>What is one of the basic things we learn here? That WE CAN ONLY CONTROL OUR OWN BEHAVIOR. I can follow the rules of care and protection till the cows come home, and my H will still be in control of his own behavior.<p>Just as we apply this basic principle to the recovery process, it was just as much in effect BEFORE the A. It takes two people to care for and protect a M enough to affair-proof it.<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Please read about what Harleys say about what causes an A. There are more than one or two causes. The BS does her/himself no good for blaming her/himself. But there IS a lot to learn about WHY they happen. My H's EA has been occurring from Day 2 of our M. Was I meeting his needs? According to what he told me were his needs, I was MORE than taking care of them. Some of these WS's have things going on that have nothing to do with how well we are meeting there needs. In short, don't beat yourself up over it---THEY made the choice!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong><p>Steve Harley does not share your opinion. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Conqueror,<p>Please read Dr. Harley's response to the letters in the following:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html<p>In the beginning of his reply, he states: "I have decided to use their contents to illustrate how affairs begin. R. J. described the essential conditions for an affair quite well. First, there is usually a dissatisfaction with marriage that stems from the failure to meet an important emotional need."<p>I know there is usually more to it than just that, and maybe I was oversimplifying a little, but I don't think I was too off the mark.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>-HD

Here's another article too that may say it a little better:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5032a_qa.html<p>About 2/3 down his reply is the following paragraph:<p>"But you should acknowledge an important reason that he had the affair: You were not meeting at least one of his most important emotional needs. And because of his frustration, his feelings for you are not what they should have been. The woman he now loves met that need, and ended his frustration. If your marriage is to succeed, you will have to take her place in meeting that need."<p>-HD

Whether something the BS does or doesn't do sets the stage or not, it is STILL the WS who walks onto the stage. What my H and I both did brought about a state of marital dissatisfaction. I protected the M enough not to have an A; he did not.<p>Marriage is a system and what one does many times will influence what the other does. My H's dissatisfaction with the M may have stemmed from my failure to meet one or more important ENs, but that failure stemmed from HIS failure to meet ALL of my most important ENs, so there it is back in his lap again. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Trying to determine who did what first is pointless. It is what was done last that determines who gets the blame for the A. Just as the BS didn't hold a gun to the WS's head forcing him to marry her, the BS does not force or CAUSE their spouse to have an A. Both are free-will choices.<p>You can look back all you want to find real or imagined "causative" factors, but only one person had the power to prevent an A, and that was the WS. If the WS doesn't recognize that, then it is likely to occur again. Dr. Harley told me that if my H doesn't recognize that he pursues women and how he does it, then he is likely to have another A. Dr. Harley told me that in the context of me following the MB principles and after telling him that my H said I was doing a good job meeting his most important ENs.<p>Like I said, care and protection by BOTH spouses is necessary to affair-proof the M. I'm not absolving anyone of their portion of the responsibility, but the BS can only do so much, and they cannot control the behavioral choices of the WS.<p>I had a friend who was in a car crash and paralyzed from the waist down. She was in the hospital for months and months. She had very little opportunity, much less ability, to meet her H's most important ENs. I don't know whether he had an A, but if he did, would her failure to meet his ENs have been the cause? Not in my book.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But how many cases have we seen here where there was NOT anything "missing" from the marriage, and though it had its ups and downs as ALL marriages do it was actually a good and stable and happy one? Where one spouse apparently just decides that if some is good, more is better, and sees nothing wrong with having a little extra on the side?<hr></blockquote><p>I have been on these boards for a year and a half, and I've only seen one person (Zorweb) who fits the description of being faultless in a marital breakdown.<p>I have seen ALOT of BSes who absolutely do not want to do any self-reflection or take responsibilty for their part in the breakdown of the marriage.<p>I have never seen real recovery occur where the BS does not take responsibility for their part. I have seen WSes go back to those BSes, but nothing changes, the BS continues to be frustrated and plays the continual victim. The WS starts up the affair again, or has another one a few years later.<p>As for the Harley position, it's my understanding that yes, the WS is ultimately responsible for the choice to have the affair and not protecting the BS. BUT how did the environment get created that the WS was vulnerable to making that choice in the first place? THAT's where the BS is at fault, intentional or not. Obviously, its not black and white, there are times, like in my case, and in many others situations also, that the WS lies or doesn't communicate about their needs. So in that sense, the WS has failed in their own obligation of telling their spouse what they need - BUT - the fact remains, regardless of where the blame lies, that emotional needs were not being met.<p>Just because a person actively puts 110% effort into meeting needs of their spouse doesn't mean that he or she is accurate and successful. And if the effort isn't accurate...then the needs are unmet. <p>Something is indeed "missing" in the marriage.<p>The fact of the matter is that BOTH spouses are at fault for the unmet needs.<p>There are times that one spouse can't possibly meet the emotional needs of another. Those cases include addiction and psychological dysfunction. Let me just say though, that too often I see BSes on here that are too willing to blame the affair on WS dysfunction, rather than do any real honest rigorous self examination. <p>It only takes one person to change the dynamic in a marriage. IF the BS is willing to set aside the hurt, the anger and self-righteous cloak of victimization, to change their OWN behavior, the marriage might have a chance.<p>I didn't see or hear the "Today Show", but I can tell you from reading your post, that you seem to have heard the message presented through a filter of a great deal of pain.<p>Facing that maybe you played a part in the breakdown of a marriage is a very hard thing to face. It took me nearly a year before I began to "get it".

I am with Hurting Deeply, Conqueror and inthedark. I agree that everyone can improve upon the marriage and themselves, probably by quite a bit. However, not all affairs are caused by unmet ENs AND is it truly the BS's fault if the WS continually says "Everything is fine. You are wonderful"? No one can read minds. <p>In addition, there are sometimes personality traits or childhood issues or perhaps a form of mental illness that sends someone down a path of not seeing someone. My H was simply not seeing what I was doing to meet his wants (because let's face it, they only feel like needs). Somehow, when faced with losing me, I went overnight from "I'm ashamed to be seen with you" to "You walk up to the car and I am filled with anticipation. I think, 'That's my wife!'" <p>I wore the same nightgown that I had worn before that my husband had dismissed as a "nursing nightgown" (but baby it doesn't look like a nursing nightgown) and he went nuts with desire. He actually thought the nightgown was new. Prior to our reconciliation, he just couldn't "see" me anymore.<p>He broke down in church during a sermon regarding being blind to those around us. Of course, some of that was me but a lot of it was him and him emotionally confusing me with his father, etc. It doesn't mean I am not doing everything I can to better myself but I didn't make his choices for him and I did a LOT to try to save the marriage. When he lies about his needs/wants and his feelings I am helpless. I can only work on me but I can't take the blame for him too. It's not healthy.