Well, my WW is really opening up with me. She now feels comfortable discussing any part of her relationship with OM. She still will not stop seeing or talking with OM, but I think we are making progress here. She even (when prodded) said who was bigger (he is slightly bigger, but he has erectile disfunction. YES!!! She said he can perform but it takes some work.) When asked, she will tell me if she talked to him and what they talked about.<p>However, I am curious as to how healthy this is to talk about the OM. I would like to know about all the details, because I know OM is a large part of her life right now, and I will not be able to be close to her unless she shares these things with me. I feel if we can not talk about these things we have a hard time talking because we each are holding back so much. I know that all of this talk about OM takes a toll on me, but I think I feel better than if I knew nothing and had to keep guessing.<p>Please give me your opinion on this. Right now I am still recovering from all the new information, but now I do not have to guess any more and I think it makes me stronger.

She talks to OM about you. If you can calmly discuss him and not freak, ( he doesn't freak when she discusses you) then you will be making deposits in her Love Bank. (Is conversation one of her main needs? ) if it is, you will be making big time deposits. He is something important to her, so discussing him will make more deposits than say, discussing baseball. Search some Orchids posts to see how to talk fogese back to her, about him, without Love Busting. <p>I would keep it on things like: " so what are his strengths, weeknesses? " <p>How big is he? I couldn't take that. <p>Note, all this depends on if you can take it.
If it hurts to much, stay away. <p>Many will tell you just to stay away, that it will be to hard on you. I don't think I could do it without LB.

This is a tough one. I went there and have regretted it ever since. It was a major subconcious block to me when we had sex. My advice is to stay away from it. It's a Pandora's box my friend.<p>Also, as far as still seeing/communicating with him... ouch. You can bet that the discussion has come up between them. Definitely wouldn't discuss him with her (especially about sex) knowing that they are still communicating.<p>I guess you two haven't set boundaries yet or discussed the POJA?

Mr Fix It,<p>I have set boundaries. I have told her that the three of us will not work. Sooner or later she will have to chose. I said that if we continue on the same path, I will not be able to take it anymore and we will have to legally separate. I have printed a sample legal separation form a month ago for her to chew on, and I only talk about this when she initiates it. She has read about half of SAA when she cared.<p>I can take all of what she has to say because I have decided in my heart I will love her no matter what she has done or will do. I will love her unconditionally as I promised on my wedding day. In sickness or health, I consider this a sickness. I have told her this before she told me about the affair, and this is what gave her the comfort to tell me that she was having an affair.<p>I believe that if I can love her unconditionally, Plan A will be a natural and there can be no accidental LB's. Unfortunately, I have to daily get to this state of mind.<p>I figure she had sex before we were married, and I am comfortable with who I am. This is strengthening my self esteem daily because these events are uncovering issues I thought I never had, and I am having to deal with them quite successfully.<p>In all of this, I gain my strength because God loves us unconditionally, and there is no reason why I should not love her the same way, and God commands that I do.
---------------------
Still seeking,<p>I am still exploring what her main EN's are. I am just not 100% sure. I think conversation is number 1. She is so mixed up right now, I am sure she can not be honest about herself. I am trying different things. Affection has very little effect right now (for obvious reasons). Conversation and admiration are the keys I am guessing.<p>Thanks for your input. I will continue to talk with her about OM as much as possible, but being carefull to allow her to bring it up when she starts getting uncomfortable.<p>Right now she is very interested in finding more information about the erectile disfunction thing, and she even asked me to ask one of my older friends about it, (which he gladly answered-he has been following my story for some time). Finally, I musted up the energy to say, "you know that if you two did get together, you probably could work something out that would be mutually pleasureable." I am hoping that was not in her mind and the reason why she is concerned.

I plan to get all details. I have quite a lot already, but I plan to get every single one of my questions answered eventually. It is very painful to talk about specifics, but in a way it helps with acceptance and has kind of a de-powering effect on those details. IOW, when he verbalizes them to me, reveals them to me, they don't have the power they had before when he was hiding them from me. They hurt me more when they are hidden.<p>When I know everything that happened between them, then he cannot have a memory that I don't also have. I'll never have to wonder what he may be thinking about. I'll know what I'm up against. And it is a fact that many WSes here have shared that they think about the OP sometimes for years afterward, missing him/her, etc. I'd rather know that than not know it. I'd rather not be tripping along thinking I'm his one and only when I'm not.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Finally, I musted up the energy to say, "you know that if you two did get together, you probably could work something out that would be mutually pleasureable." <hr></blockquote><p>Don't encourage her ! <p>I am with MrFixit
I would stay away from the hard stuff. <p>If conversation is # 1 then take lessons if you have to, but talk. I can talk to others sometimes easier than my wife. It has taken me about 4 months to be comfortable ( and to be halfway good at it.)<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

"Finally, I musted up the energy to say, "you know that if you two did get together, you probably could work something out that would be mutually pleasureable."<p>Huh?!?! You're on the right track with the unconditional love and the commitment part BUT you have to build respect and I would venture to say that a comment like that would have to knock you down a few clicks on her respect scale. <p>Sounds like you're contributing to her fog to me. I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on you but you're allowing her to completely tromp on some major boundaries by asking you for sex advice with the OM. Tough love is also part of unconditional love. I would strongly suggest you read Dobson's book.

just a thought here... if she's willing to talk about strengths and weaknesses of the OM, you can learn a lot about your W's needs... <p>DON'T compare yourself!!! That's very dangerous, ESPECIALLY with things you have no control over (size, etc. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )... But I'm saying you might can learn a thing or two...<p>Imagine having sex or drug talks with your teenagers... you want them to be open and honest with you about stuff... so you can know where or how to guide them, and so you can know what they're up to. Well, you can't really guide your W, but you can gain knowledge about her... <p>Some here would also say you're lucky to know what's going on. Those of us who are/were kept in the dark go nuts-o wondering if anything is going on - and what it is. So, I'd say, try to keep communication going best you can. <p>Just try not to take it personally - as if you're talking with a friend...<p>my opinion....<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

I guess I would not shy away from talking about these things with my wife, but while the A is still going on it would be difficult. I think you need to be carefull, on the one hand you are showing her it is safe to talk with you and communicate and this is a big step, but you have to be carefull not to appear to be accepting of the situation. I realize this is a fine line, so you need to assess what you and she are taking away from these conversations. It may be that each of you percieve the conversations differently and she is getting a different message than intended.<p>As for finding information on erectile disfunction or talking about any future they may have together, I would not go there myslef. At least in my eyes, if my wife wanted my help related to her A or the OM, I would have to decline. In some ways I see it like when my wife was talking about an apartment. I choose not to help her because it was not what I wanted and it would have let the A get stronger. I would have helped her move, but I'm not going to make things easy for her, the OM, or the A.<p>By the way, I tried to answer your questions on my post.<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: onwardandup ]</p>

dreamland,<p>Wow, I thought I was reliving my recovery with my H. He too allowed me to talk of the OM while I was in the mists of the fog and trying to figure out which way to turn next. I think that was one thing that kept me wondering if I had really given my marriage the shot it deserved. And I know that all the info did take a toll on him, but he acted as if nothing was more important to him than my happiness. And I found that in order to truly see if my marriage could survive, I had to let the OM go and put 100 % into my marriage.<p>It was unfortunate that I now can see over a year later, that all those little things my H did were just to get me to stay and to give up the OM. My H's changes were not permenant. So please, be very honest with your WW during this time, and make sure that what you say to her is true...true when you say it and true later on. Now, I feel totally let down, but determined to work on my marriage. And I can understand all the reason he said all the things he did. But this time, we will work the problems out without another person being involved. that is the bottom line.<p>My prayers are with you. Be patient and go as far as your love bank will let you. If she feels safe with you, it deposits love into her bank and before you know it she will see you in another light.
Debbie

I know I cannot change her mind or make decisions for her. She has to make these decisions and come out of the fog by herself. I am not contributing to her fog. I am being a good friend. If does not talk about these things with me, she will find someone else and more than likely the OM. The PA ended on D-day, and she knows that if I found out the PA was continuing, I would move to Plan B. <p>I do not like to beat around the bush. I see things the way they are, and if she starts bringing up the OM's sex problems, I am going to be truthful to her. This is not encouragement. I tend to put closure to our conversations by telling her that I love her and that I would like him out of the picture, and we can never work if she is still contacting him. She knows that she needs to cut off contact and even is now agreeing to considering a cut off letter to OM. I make a soft sell on is she ready to cut contact off yet. <p>I think POJA belongs in recovery land. Any mentioning of how she is hurting me now is LB's. I will risk one or two LB's here and there when I know she has push my limits.<p>She is telling me she feels comfortable about talking to me about anything, and she says she does not have the same comfort with him. <p>I get more and more comfortable about who I am through all of this. I do not care what people think or say about me (size etc.). I feel good about who I am and the things I can not change. That is why these things do not bother me. If I decide to change the things about me that are in my power, I do it for me, not because I think someone else would benefit.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. First, it is important for you to feel good about yourself (through all of my problems, I feel better about myself than I have in years). Second, as long as you reiterate your feelings about her realtionship with the OM, I think you are safe and not empowering or making demands. Third, you are right it is her decision, but getting her to talk to you and the fact that she is becoming comfortable with you makes it likely the decision will go your way. I like how you are handling things...Good Job.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dlm:
<strong>It was unfortunate that I now can see over a year later, that all those little things my H did were just to get me to stay and to give up the OM. My H's changes were not permenant. So please, be very honest with your WW during this time, and make sure that what you say to her is true...true when you say it and true later on.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Debbie,<p>What happened may not have been manipulative on your H's part. He may have truly meant everything he said and did at that time, but the toll it took on him emotionally and energy-wise may have had an effect on his ability to sustain the changes despite his best intentions.<p>It is hard to keep up with things and keep your motivation high when you are depressed. I know I've had a hard time staying motivated when my LB$ was depleted. I think if the two of you keep working at avoiding LBs and filling each other's ENs, it will help restore his energy and reestablish what you saw before.<p>Dreamland,<p>I think you are walking the line of acceptance of reality versus enabling the A very well. POJA can be used during Plan A in the way you are using it--you are letting her know that you do not enthusiastically agree to her continued R with the OM, and you can let her know when she proposes a course of action (no-contact letter for instance) that you can enthusiastically agree to.<p>I agree that dealing with the realities of the OM and her R with him is much easier than dealing with your imagination or dread. The more I know about the OW, the more I'm able to compare myself favorably to her and feel comfortable in my own skin.<p>From what I have learned so far, the only way she will always be "better" than me is in her willingness to treat my H as a quadriplegic for the pay-off of having his attention for an hour or two a week. Since that is something I will NEVER do for any man who is NOT a quadriplegic, I have no anxiety about that. She's more than welcome to win that competition hands down. That type of R doesn't interest me in the least.<p>Actually, now that I think about it, it apparently didn't interest her for very long either since she got tired of it when it became clear he wasn't leaving me. He said most of their time together was spent arguing because of her complaints that he didn't spend enough time with her. I guess even the quadriplegic treatment didn't make up for all the angry outbursts and selfish demands she was LBing him with.<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>