First I would like to think each and every one of you for your replies. Jdmac1 told me to get ready for some bashing from ya'll because I was the ws/bs. There are still a lot to this story that he hasn't told and that I didn't tell. And I feel like that he told things that he should not of told anyone. <p> Faith1, I went back and found the post about his EA against his wishes. He told me what he posted was none of my business. It was fine for the world to read but I was not to read any of his posts. He told me that if I went and read them, that he would leave. Yes I went and read them against his will, this morning while he is in bed asleep because I felt like it was just as much my right to read them as everybody else's. (Your H came on here when he found himself vulnerable to an EA (emotional affair).) Forgive me if I'm wrong but hasn't he been on here for a while now.<p> I read the one about him wanting a Divorce and the one's about me having 2 other affairs and many more. The one about his EA. Let me tell you that is not true I have only had 2 affairs and that is all, I will take blame for them. There is no 3rd or 4th affairs. The fourth affair that he is blaming me for is a 21 year old that was going to break one of my horses. <p> Several of you ask what was my plan for the family well that is hard to say because of some of the stuff that I have read here, that he has wrote. The way that I thought things were apparently isn't how he sees things. When I thought things were going good he didn't think so. And no matter how much I try to get him to understand that staying up on the computer chatting is hurting our marriage he doesn't listen. I really wished I knew what to do.<p> I have worked on this for days trying to figure things out, and what I wanted to write.
Sorry it has took so long for me to reply.<p>
I wished that I knew what the future holds for me and jdmac1

Here is one more thing. Im the type of person who doesn't like to talk about things. I think If you don't have to deal with the problem it will blow over. But when it is thrown up in your face everyday you can't get over it. It is just like it had happen yesterday.

Well, I guess jdmac1 just needed a place to vent. Faith1 started a thread recently about us all posting as if our spouses would read it someday and this is a good example of why.<p>I agree with you sjmac1, that what we can say to the world we should be able to say to our spouses. You have got to be willing to open yourself up to your H and talk some more. He seems reasonable. It's not good to just sweep it under the rug and hope it will go away. It only festers--you know--that undealt with hurt, it turns into anger and it grows until there is a big blowup over nothing. It's like something under pressure and the slightest thing blows it up.<p>Then, you find yourself sitting there wondering what the heck you did to make that person blow up so badly??? They were holding it in. Not good!<p>I think that you guys should just go ahead and call Steve Harley and make a telephone counseling appointment. He can help you guys work out a better communication plan.<p>It sounds like jdmac1 thought things were worse than they actually are. And, because of your silence, instead of telling him to get off the computer and talk to you, he was suspicious of you having more affairs... So then he would spend more time online? Maybe??? And all this tension and strife over nothing!!! You guys can get through this. You have too much invested. I have faith in you!<p>How about reading this article as a start. It talks about our love banks and how love busters can remove deposits from the love bank until our love bank is empty!<p>It sounds like jdmac1 being on the computer too much is a love buster for you! It also sounds like your unwillingness to talk about the issues is a love buster for jdmac1! It sounds like he has an emotional need for conversation--and so do YOU!<p>Check this out: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

I will try saying this again ... it's time for jdmac1 to get away from the computer, which is a kind of secret life all its own. Plenty of time for that later, if the marriage fails.<p>It's an LB, for one thing, and his responsibility to fix. Remember plan A.

jd(Sorry all, I did not realize that my wifes username was still logged in...jd)<p>tmmx,<p> Not trying to be....ummm....too blunt, but suffice it to say that I am no longer in Plan A. <p> Now I refuse to get into a tit-for-tat situation on my wifes thread. Having said that...you are being pretty frank about some things you may not completely understand. <p> In a previous post you stated;<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What really strikes me about this, is that jdmac1 might have had an opportunity to
rebuild, and missed it.<p> He's been a frequent and adept poster. And if you go to a support group, you will be supported on the story that you present. But you must stay in touch with the real world. <hr></blockquote><p> You have absolutely no idea about what you speak of. I suggest that you are assuming a great deal. <p> Now you say;
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I will try saying this again ... it's time for jdmac1 to get away from the computer, which
is a kind of secret life all its own. Plenty of time for that later, if the marriage fails.<p>It's an LB, for one thing, and his responsibility to fix. Remember plan A. <hr></blockquote><p> Again, I am no longer in Plan A. As for the rest...Again you are making an assumption based on one side, and the fact that I have over 900 posts. Humph! Might you take a look at some other pretty grounded folks here and tell them their marriages failed, or are bad, or just struggling, because they have over 1000? 2000? Hey, some have over 4000 posts. Are they living in some sort of fantasy world as well?<p> Look, all I ask is that you be fair in this. I am not gonna come here and debate my wife for something she says on her thread(right or wrong).
All I wish to see, is for you fine people to do what most have. Try to help her with the same understanding I was given. Without attempting to place blame on me for us not already being in recovery. I will not stand by and watch that.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: sjmac1 ]</p>

sjmac1,
It's so good to have you on here! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Really!!!!<p>BinThere had some wonderful words of wisdom in her last reply. I don't have much to add.<p>I've seen it lots of times before on this board... including myself... the person posting gets in their own "fog"... usually because the one that's NOT on here has withdrawn from the marriage, and is not communicating. When the WS moves out, starts hiding things, and telling lies, (c'mon, you know it's true [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) the BS does their best to save love in their love bank for the WS, so that the marriage can have some hope. BUT, pretty often, the BS begins assuming things about the WS that aren't true. We start assuming there's more affairs. We assume WS is lying to us. We assume WS doesn't WANT us anymore. We sometimes withdraw and stop communicating because we are scared to talk to WS, pry, or make WS angry. ALLLLLL kinds of things. This causes us to be vulnerable to afairs of our own, BUT also scares us to death and we begin figuring out HOW to make changes in ourselves, and prove to our WS that we love them and are willing to change!! Wow!! Doesn't that say a lot? We make mistakes, and we get in our own "fog", but we are here cuz we wanna be married, and learn how to love our WS's better. Not to seek revenge, spread rumors, or bash our WS's.<p>If you'll read the posts of General Questions II EVEN just on the first page alone, you'll see many people trying to figure out what's going on. Affairs are a SERIOUS wake-up call to some of us, and we wanna know 2 things: 1- How can I save my marriage, and 2- How can I survive this? (Some of us don't get number 1, because we can only control OUR behavior, but we can all certainly achieve number 2) <p>Please stick around sj. We want to support you, if you're willing to accept it. No matter what jd said about you - truth or not - we don't think bad of you at ALL - we only want to support you both, and ask that you learn and reach out to support others. Open your mind and heart to your H that loves you. And consider one phone call to Steve Harley - it would be SOOOOO worth it.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

You guys have hit on something that has bothered me for quite some time. I think this place is a double edged sword. On one side, it is a blessing and a safety net for those who have gone through the trauma of strife in their marriage. On the other, it is an EA - a focus of our energy and emotions that are more approporiately directed toward our own spouse and family. <p>Don't get me wrong, just lurking here helped me get through the most horrible thing that I have ever experienced. But, my marriage didn't really begin healing until I took what I learned here and left this board and used the time that I was spending here on meeting the emotional needs of my wife (and thankfully, enjoying her meeting mine).<p>So, listen, learn, ask questions, and listen more. But by all means take what you have learned and go - go be with your loved ones. Staying here once you have learned is not going to repair your marriage and allow your family to heal. <p>hg

a gentle nudge up for jd and sj

here is another problem that we have. jdmac1 think everytime I go somewhere that I have to have a babysitter all the time. But he fills that after is EA over the phone and the internet that he should be left alone all the time. <p>What is the differents between him and me?

Humm. I'm not sure that there should be a difference. <p>Both of you had A's. Whether it was an EA or PA shouldn't really matter. If you are both trying to work things out than I think that the POJA should cover this. IMHO you should both be willing to "report" your whereabouts to the other.<p>I would certainly be willing to tell my WW the who,what,when,where,why of my day. And I would expect the same from her. <p>Of course I haven't reached that stage yet, so for now I'm "playing the waiting game".<p>I'm sure someone wiser than I can give you a better answer. You already have the attention of some of the veteran MBers. Listen to thier advice and take the support that they offer. <p>Obviously no one here has the "miracle cure". (If they did we would all be happily married [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) but we can learn from thier experiences.<p>Feeling Lost<p>[ June 02, 2002: Message edited by: FeelingLost ]</p>

Mr & Mrs JDmac,<p>I have a question for the both of U. <p>1. Are each of you still having an A (in any way shape or form)?<p>2. If no, is your mate aware that it is over? <p>3. What steps have you done or given your mate to prove that it is over?<p>4. Is your mate convinced? <p>
5. If the answer is question 1 is yes, are you here to help you stop or justify your ongoing A?<p>These questions are now necessary for me because I see a pattern here. This is an Marriage Builders site. One that collectively has helped many. But it does not justify As. <p>Remember when you point the finger of blame at someone else, 3 are pointing back at you. That is the same for each of us. If we can help, we need to know where each of you stand. Then we can help you move forward. Delving to much into the past once all is known, hinders recovery. <p>Take Care,

sj,
Great questions and advice from Orchid. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I won't add much to that. She's a smart lady.<p>sj, there is no difference. You both need to be open and honest with each other, as well as ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree with each others' activities.<p>jd, and sj, life is too short to build these walls between you, isn't it? The love you once shared JUST doesn't come around a whole lot. Can ya'll break down your walls of self-protection, open your hearts, and begin working in the same direction?<p>Keep posting and asking questions. We're here for both of you, but we can't fix it for you.<p>Faith1

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sjmac1:
<strong>Here is one more thing. Im the type of person who doesn't like to talk about things. I think If you don't have to deal with the problem it will blow over. But when it is thrown up in your face everyday you can't get over it. It is just like it had happen yesterday.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I can tell you this, your lack of communication is probably the number one problem, even more than infidelity, in your marriage. NO PROBLEM blows over. You either both agree to forgive and pardon each other for the issue or one or both of you will harbor the resentment from that problem -- that lack of communication -- and it will poison your relationship.<p>Are you willing to change this aspect of your personality? Communication is critical to a healthy marriage.

MR. & MRS. MAC1,<p>Hi. My goodness...how are you both doing today?<p>I think it boils down to one thing.....you both need some sort of counseling. If MB is not in JOINT AGREEMENT then something else should be agreed on. You don't want a feuding match on MB forums. It won't help. It will just seem like you both are looking for people to take sides eventually. <p>RADICAL HONESTY is most definitely needed. The farther you run from your problems, the harder you fall if and when the end comes. <p>Call Steve Harley or set up outside MC. Mrs. Mac1, I don't think not talking about the problem is going to solve it. It will just make matters worse. JD needs to talk and so do you. It WILL build up if you don't. <p>My H has had 32 A's and probably more I don't know about [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . I've had 1 myself <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> ... [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] (horrible mistake) after a number of years of his cheating. One A is too many. A's are not the answer. Trust is all but totally depleated for us. We are still M, still tell each other "I love you", but everyday is a struggle(In Plan B/still Aing now). [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] More the sh*t builds up, the harder it is to get through it. <p>MB CONCEPTS can save your M if you let them. I believe you save it or you don't. There is no in between. YOU ARE M OR YOU ARE NOT. If you chose to stay M, then do what it takes to make it work. One day at a time.<p>RADICAL HONESTY, JOINT AGREEMENT, NO LOVE BUSTERS, PLAN A OR B, MARRIAGE COUNSELING***** MUSTS!! PROTECT EACH OTHER<p>Just my thoughts.
InTheClouds

Hi,
I hope you don't continue to feel that MB is part of the problem. I'm pretty new here, I have received some very good words of wisdom from the veteran of this website. Some of the responses I received were from BS and WS. Both sides have given me a perspective that I did not consider. I was too busy hurting to think clearly. <p>I think if I would not have found MB, I might have gone into a severe depression. The advice I was given I was able to stop any LB's in my M and it seems to be improving. <p>Unlike some of those here whos A's are in the open in their M, I cannot confront my H on his current suspected A or past A, at this time it would be very unwise of me to do so. However, saving my M is very important to me. So, I've started doing what I could for me to help me, and help my M without compromising who I am.<p>The first step I took was I lost the anger and bitterness I felt towards my H from his past A. That has made a difference in our M.

We try to talk but it ends up in a screaming match and with H throwing the A's up in my face and the I start to cry and I'm very hurt that he keeps throwing them up in my face. I tell him all the time that, that hurts me but it is like he doesn't care. Please someone help me understand why he keeps on doing this.I try to tell him that I have to live with what I have done everyday with out him reminding me on a daily bases.

Here's a possible answer... it's NOT justification for his behavior... but the affairs just can't be swept under the rug. He has a lot of pain from those affairs, and he needs to be able to express it. He won't throw them in your face forever, especially if he can express himself, and see that you acknowledge his pain. If you do this, and he still keeps hitting you over the head with them, then we'll yell at him for you, k? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What would REALLY help him, is for you to LET HIM talk about it. Let him talk about his pain - how he felt - let him ask you questions. It's like cleaning out a wound. It hurts, and it's messy, but it's the only way for the wound to heal.<p>Do you think you could let him get it all out? Maybe not all in one talk, but be PATIENT enough for him to talk about it when it's bothering him? You are the only one that can help him with this part of it. You are the only one that can answer his questions. You are his W, whom he loves dearly and wants to rebuild his marriage with, so you are the only one that can help these wounds heal, so you BOTH can move forward.<p>He needs to try to express himself without angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments, but it may be very difficult for him to do so. Be patient while he tries.<p>I'm the BS, and I was never able to get through this stage with my XH, but I would love to. I also closely helped another couple from here, as did JD, sort through this stage of their healing as well. (SEM and Keep Smiling). THey had to clear the air, give each other time and patience, and they are doing great today.<p>Can you get away from the kids for a littel while and listen to him? Let him get some things off his chest without him afraid that you will leave? Can you make him feel safe to express his pain about the affairs?<p>In return, he should allow YOU a safe environment to express your pain about his behavior prior to your affairs, and the pain HIS EA has caused you. And he should do his best to listen to your answers to HIS questions.<p>The wounds can not heal unless they are cleaned (discussed), treated with medicine (much love, time and patience), and patched up (plan for improvements).<p>A good counselor could help ya'll talk about these things. But if anything, you 2 can find some time alone - several hours a week - and work through these things.<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sjmac1:
<strong>We try to talk but it ends up in a screaming match and with H throwing the A's up in my face and the I start to cry and I'm very hurt that he keeps throwing them up in my face. I tell him all the time that, that hurts me but it is like he doesn't care. Please someone help me understand why he keeps on doing this.I try to tell him that I have to live with what I have done everyday with out him reminding me on a daily bases.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>From this site:<p>I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument. By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her. What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive. I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!" What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all." To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love." My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him. Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.

sjMac1,<p>Only jdMac1 can tell you why he continues to do it even though he knows what the MB concepts are on LBing. If he is reading this, he knows that it has to stop in order for the healing to begin(if that is what you both want). SJ, you shouldn't do it to him either. It won't solve or change anything. <p>I know I use to do it when I felt insecure about the days events or when thoughts of his A's consumed me. It got me so mad and disgusted that I just busted [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . I didn't know how to get through to him any other way...that what he had done to me hurt me. I didn't think he was hearing me or understanding the mulititude of the pain he caused me. VICE VERSA. My H did the same thing to me and still does to this day at times. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Every sitution is different, but it is taking a good Plan B for us to make a change. With everything that has happened in our M, I don't think we could have done anything different. I think it is working for us. WE ARE FOCUSING ON OURSELVES and PROTECTING EACH OTHER as well as our M. For some odd reason, it works....if that makes sense [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>We don't trust each other, and probably never will. We are coping. We know we are not perfect and we are flawed. We have taken responsibility for our own mistakes and for our part in the breakdown of our M. <p>We have come to grips of what led up to the A's on both our parts and now are dealing with it. We had to go back to the source with complete RADICAL HONESTY as to what we both felt was/is wrong. We both had personal issues that consumed our lives and prevented us from protecting each other.....and our marriage. After 10+ yrs, we have only just begun to face the problem. <p>No one puts a gun to our heads to have A's, EA or PA. We chose to do them on our own without thought of the consequences. When we get caught and are forced to face our transgressions, the consequences are overwhelming. Our defensive mechanisms kick in(The Fog, anger, contempt, etc...). Some try to hold onto the secrets as long as they can. Some don't. <p>I hope that your A's are over, both EA's and PA's. I hope that through RADICAL HONESTY you've both gotten everything out in the open. Keep holding onto the secrets and events that the other should know about, it makes matters worse. If you are going to heal then heal through it all.
COMPLETELY.<p>Pointing the finger, placing blame, or judging will get you know where. You see that now. Both of you have to listen....I mean REALLY LISTEN to one another. When one talks the other MUST hold their tongue. If it starts to get heated, then one of you call a time out. That is why MC is a must right now. Your marriage will not be able to heal on its own. YOU BOTH NEED HELP...AND NOW SJ!! ****Separately and together**** <p>YOU ARE EITHER M OR YOU ARE NOT. <p>Here's what I told my H: <p>"I know I did wrong. I know I hurt you. I caused you so much pain. I regret it with all my heart. I should have protected our M, but instead I became a taker. I let the taker take over. I cannot change what I've done, but I can forgive myself and ask you for your forgiveness. I am so very sorry I hurt you. I promise to protect you and our M from this day on. I will no longer allow you to use this against me or hurt me with it. It does not protect me, you, or our M. So, I am letting you know today that I love you and I want to be M to you. If you have chosen us too, then please help me to protect us." <p>He was stumped [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] . He didn't know what to say or do next.<p>It was a gamble I had to take. He basically told me the same thing in the months before I had my A, but didn't word it very well. His words: "I can't take it back now so deal with it.".....you can only imagine what came out of my mouth [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . I totally lost my [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] ... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

I can look back now and chuckle about it, but the pain and agony of it all was so much more intense and thick than it is now...(we've come along way).<p>One day at a time<p>Just my thoughts
InTheClouds<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: INTHECLOUDS320 ]</p>

Orchid,<p> Forgive me for my failure to see whatever it is you see from myself. But, I must ask the question...Where do you see a pattern of any form in anything I have posted on this thread, or on the site for that matter? With the exception that I have refused to debate the rights or wrongs of what my wife has posted. <p> Now I wish it to be known that I DO love my wife very much. That has never changed. What has changed is that I am no longer bogged down in Plan A. No, I am not in Plan B either. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1. Are each of you still having an A (in any way shape or form)? <hr></blockquote><p> I am still friends with the person I mentioned at this site on a seperate thread some time ago.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. If no, is your mate aware that it is over? <hr></blockquote><p> My wife is aware that I have a female friend.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. What steps have you done or given your mate to prove that it is over?<hr></blockquote><p> I have attempted to get them to know each other. I no longer hide that I talk to this friend. Most importantly I no longer view this as an EA, but a friendship. I might add that this person does now consider my wife as a friend as well. They talk as much or more than we do.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>4. Is your mate convinced? <hr></blockquote><p> She will have to answer that. But I doubt it very much.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>5. If the answer is question 1 is yes, are you here to help you stop or justify your ongoing A?<hr></blockquote><p> I have NEVER sought to justify anything. In fact I came here ashamed of the feelings I was having toward another woman. Having said that, at present I will not consider giving up this friendship. Which is all it has become. There has never been a PA between myself and this friend. <p> I would like to ask that any who wish to reply to anything I have said please start a new thread directly to me. I have never wanted to invade my wifes thread, and I will not respond to it again. We really do have enough arguments at home that degrade into more than they should. I will not have it here.<p> jd