Hi. I have seen some great posts on this board. Can somebody please help with some advice?<p>I am 32 and have been in a relationship for a year and a half with a woman aged 28 which is very important to me. After having several girlfriends and even a wife (no kids) I can say this is the first time I found someone I really loved and committed myself to the relationship. I completely trust and admire her, I would like to marry her and have kids.<p>But things have been difficult for us. I have been afraid of commitment, afraid of getting into a relationship and suffering it's end. I guess this probably comes from my family history, my parents both divorced and remarried several times. We have both witnessed our parents having a bad time with their relationships, so we seem to be always looking for the perfect person.<p>Last year, at this same time of year, we were somewhat distanced and depressed and I got very insecure and cheated on her with an ex girlfriend and coworker. She found out. It was awful, we broke up for a month and I undertook therapy, which was a great thing to do for me. It was also great for me to read articles from the marriagebuilders site. She was and continues to be in therapy, and she is a therapist herself. <p>When we got back together, we started having a very dependant (codependent?) relationship, and it seems we not able to totally rebuild trust. In the last few months we traveled and practically lived together and had nice times but we also got into criticism wars often and we could stubbornly disagree and get angry about the most stupid things. Love busters. I tried really hard to please her, maybe too hard, I think. I neglected my job and got laid off, left the city to come live near her and actually lived at her place in a practical sense. I believe she may suffer from a certain degree of BPD or HPD. I was definitely walking on eggshells. She felt very insecure about me and I was often afraid she would leave me, I felt as if she was always keeping me on the edge, to see if I was perfect enough, loving enough, secure enough, etc. Of course that did not help me feel more secure. <p>In the last month she found a job and I criticized her for not committing more to our relationship and spending too much time working. She was always talking about how cool the job was and how she enjoyed working with her boss, but she worked many many hours (more than 10 a day sometimes) and was really very tired, and she neglected stuff that I know is dear to her. This guy seemed to value her professionally and offered her lots of money not too leave.<p>Because of her job and my activities, we were not seeing each other much. In a way the situation was similar to when I cheated on her exactly 1 year ago. I think perhaps she unconsciously (or consciously) feared I will cheat on her again.<p>Two week ago she broke up with me, at first she said it had nothing to with her boss but a few days later she admitted that she had strong feelings for the guy. Just a week after breaking up with me, they were already spending nights together and petting at her house, but I do not know if the have had sex yet. In any case, I am devastated. <p>I am currently unemployed and living at my mother's and this guy is older and very successful. Sometimes me and her had a hard time getting along lately but whenever we would try to take time to breathe or even break up we ended getting back together again like nothing had happened, but there was nobody else. Now it is different. She seems really into this guy, she says she doesn't really miss me and I feel that something is very wrong. She has not been able to tell me what it is that she needs so much and that I cannot provide.<p>The guy has been divorced for a year and has two daughters which her cares very much about, he is a great dad and that I guess is very important to her. He is a safe bet where I am not, and she may be feeling that it is time to make a decision for the sake of convention, having kids and all that stuff. <p>I really love her and miss her very much. I think she is making a big mistake. I believe she is in a very vulnerable moment and her boss might be using her. I could really use some advice. I have this wild hope that it is about getting even and that she will come back to me in a while, when the initial thrill wears off and she starts missing me. I feel that my life is empty without her in it. Any advice? Thank You.<p>Sincerely,<p>--
Ignacio

Ignacio,<p>What have you read from MB? The basic concepts along with the book his needs/her needs may assist you in making yourself a better person and hopefully in turn the one she will see as the more attractive one. <p>$$ and power is an attraction for many but it in itself does not last. Work on what are true lasting relationship qualities. That book will help you identify those needs. <p>Have you met with a counselor yet? Steve or Jennifer may be able to help you by phone counseling. This is a marriage builders site and though you are not married yet, there is a lot to learn. I am sorry you are having to go through this at all. <p>take care,
L.

God does some crazy things to prove to us that things aren't always the best for us, maybe that is why you two have never gotten married.<p>I don't mean to let you down, I'm sure you were looking for some support here, but the old saying of if you love somebody set them free is true. Let go and let God take care of things for you. If you were truly meant to be with her, she'll come back, and it will be better than before, if not I'm sure there is something a whole lot better in this world for you. I know its hard, but in the long run I think you'll be amazed at what happens.<p>In the meantime, focus on you, and make you a better person, either for her or someone else.

Thank You Orchid and thebetrayedone for your comments.<p>Answering Orchid: we are both seeing seperate therapists. Although once we went together to see hers and it was good, I have never been able to get her to agree to joint therapy.<p>There is something I would like to add: when I read Dr. Harley's column: "How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages" it struck me that perhaps I believe co-dependency is ok and she does not. The main reason I cheated on her in the first place is because her tendency to be very independant made me insecure. <p>I did mention that I think she suffers from mild BPD/HPD (Borderline Personality Disorder/Histrionic Personality Disorder). The columns also talks about what happens to somebody who's partner is an alcaholic, which she is not, and it seems to me that being BPD/HPD might produce the same kind of effect on a relationship.<p>Well, she is supposed to be coming to my place (actually my Mother's, were I am staying) today or tomorrow to exchange some belongings. I could really use some advice on how to handle this event. It seems to me that it is a crucial moment. I beleive even though she has replaced me with her boss which seems to know how to patch in to her emotional needs (did I mention he is an older, experienced psychologist?), by now she must have missed me at least a bit, so if there is any chance of a 180 it might be now, and I want to do my best.

Well. She came, brought most of my stuff, will bring the rest next week. We both cried a little and hugged and I kissed her on the forehead. She was not defensive and I was not manipulative. She tried to explain to me that she loves me but is not in love, and that she doesn't know what will happen with the other guy but wants to give it a try, that she cannot explain what it is that she needs in him, but the fact that he has two daughters and they are important to him is something she admires. She says she feels his being a generous guy makes her want to be generous too. She mentioned the fact that the daughters would always be number 1 and she could only be number 2, and this is not easy for her. She asked why I had not put away the photo of her that I keep next to my bed, I aswered that I just did not want to do that yet. For some reason that made her cry. I gave her the poem and the picture and told her she could count on me if she needed me. <p>So that is all for now.<p>I will probably do some reading now and get back here after thinking a little more about all this. In the mean time, opinions are very welcome, and Thank You very much for the attention and support.

Ignacio,
Hi! I was wondering how it went today for you. Sounds like you handled yourself well. I just got back in from Church, but will respond again later. In the meantime, read, post, and read some more. fs

Things are sort of settling down for me now. I guess this is sort of a plan B. I might be being very naive, thinking she can actually come back, but I think if I can get my act together, get a job, an apartment somewhere and... well have my place in the world, and assuming that things with the OM run down... then we have a chance. I guess they must run down because she loved me and I was important to her and this guy is not much like me at all. So, my hope is that the moment will come when I can pop into the scene and re-present my self, so to say.<p>It is clear to me that there are several important emotional need that she has and sees in the OM: family commitment, financial support and admiration. I know commitment is important too her, even if it is not about commitment to their/her familiy, it is potential she sees in him. Financial support is a pretty straightforward issue. If I get a job, then it is something I can provide, so I have to get a job. The tough one in this case is admiration. There is no way I can compete on this front with someone who is a colleague, so I guess I will not even try. My admiration for her is very different.<p>In terms of physical attractiveness, sexual fulfillment, conversation, and recreational companionship I think I have been and am quite capable of fulfilling those needs. As to honesty and openness, after my A I have done my best, I think I have done really very well, but the A leaves deep roots of distrust which cannot be overcome easily.<p>So I would like to ask the board for advice:<p>(1) how can I build a basis for commitment in my current state? We have no joint family to which I can commit.<p>(2) what about honesty and openness, how can I fulfil or even attempt to express my capacity for being truthful now that we are not together?<p>(3) am I being to naive considering this situation a kind of plan B?<p>Also, I would like you to share any thoughts on this thing about being number 2 respect to the OM daughter's. If she feels that it can be a problem but at the same time admires him for it, how can I translate that into a need I can fulfill? She already knows that I love her very much and that to me she is totally number 1, but that is not enough. What she admires is that OM can have number two and at the same time commit to number 1. Does this sound a little complicated?<p>I understand my case is a little off-topic. Although there was infidelity and I want to marry her, we are not only not planning to get married at all, but we are not really together at all now. The reason why I still ask for advice and stick around is that you are all such great people and you are working so hard to have better relationships, I think this community has a keen understanding of what love and relationships are all about, so there is a lot for me to learn from you.

After reading and writing about emotional needs, I suddenly realized I had been intellectualizaing so much, I actually have my needs and I miss her so much... and I cannot express all this to her because she will just feel suffocated. I know I did well today taking it easy with her but I would so much like to call her and tell her I miss her unbearably, I need her conversation, her affection, I need to have sex with her and I need us to cook together and fall asleep watching a good movie on TV. I am so sad! Please forgive me if I bore with all this...

A few hours after she came I called her and said it had been great to see her, and that I would like to meet her later in the day before she leaves town tonight. She said she could not. I feel so stupid! Why can I not just let her be... I keep fantasizing that she will want me back... that she just does not have the nerve to say breaking up was a mistake... I just cannot beieve she is actually petting with somebody else and that's enough to replace me. Sometimes I feel so clear and sometimes I am just non-linear. How the hell is she going to ever miss me if I call her? I need to stop calling her.

Today a friend, who lived a similar experience, asked why can I not just let go, this friend recalls feeling hurt and missing the person who left but also feeling relief, because the relationship had been so bad anyway. The thing is, I did not feel any relief at all, I have this gut feeling that she still loves me and that we will get back together somehow. Yesterday she made it clear that she will continue to see the OM but she also said that separating from me has been "hard" on her. So this feeds my hope and makes it harder for me to let go.<p>In about two weeks she will be moving to the city where the OM lives (she is spending the whole week there anyway) and will rent an apartment for herself. She is not living with him (although she spends almost all day with him since they work together and they have spent a couple of nights together), she is living at a friend's.<p>Now I miss her even more and I am having a very hard time not calling her. I need some hope in order to calm down or channelize this urge for contact. I want to have a plan, so what I would like to ask is for any of you who have experienced similar situations and managed to get back together to please advise me on a few specifics,<p>(1) how long did it take for the relationship with the OM/OW to run down it's initial thrill?<p>(2) when was contact good and when was it not good? what kind of contact?<p>(3) is it good/bad idea to call or mail saying that I still love her, that I need her, that I cannot believe that she doesn't miss me, that she can come back whenever she wants etc.?<p>(4) when and how did the 180 take place?<p>(5) is two weeks from now (four weeks after sep.) too soon for me to insist?

Hello! I'm totally going through the same thing as you are! I cheated on my boyfrined because of my personal and relationship insecurities that I have. I was totally convinced that he was going to cheat on me so I guess I did it first. We are still together and trying to work things out. This is the hardest thing that I've/we've ever been through. He's totally convinced that I was insane at the moment I cheated, he has his moments where I think he's just going to leave me, he think's it's 'in me' to be a cheater, I know that I will never do anything so horrib;e again, I just don't know how to make him believe me, I don't know how to get his trust back. There are times he looks at me and I can just feel his hatred, it's not the same with us, obviously. I don't know what the right thing to do or say is! He says that I am a heartless person, I know I'm not, I just made a really BIG mistake. I feel like my life is really messed up right now and I don't know how to dig myself out. I have been going to a therapist and it's been pretty helpful for me, but he hasn't talked to anyone.

Hi I,<p>It sounds to me like your ex-G is looking for security, ambition, responsibility, and stability. <p>Maybe you goal should be to improve yourself as well as your ambitions. Maybe then things will start to look your way more regarding your ex-G. If not her, then I'm sure someone else. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I truly think you should listen to your friend and let go so you can focus on you now. I don't know what it is you are looking for, but it has to be something. It seems to me that you are insecure about yourself and feeling that you need a woman to define who you are. <p>You need to change the way you think about yourself. You can do better. FOR YOU and not anyone else. It is your life, sweetie. Start living it. If she is the one meant for you, she'll come back. Don't halt your life sitting around waiting. You best be sure she is not doing that for you. I think she is trying to tell you something by that. Get your life together first, then see what happens. Learn from your mistakes and grow from there.<p>Take care of you!
You are worth it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just my thoughts.
InTheClouds

Hi FORGIVEME.<p>Yes, you do seem to be going through a very similar thing. But I would say you are very lucky to still be in the "trying to stay together" stage. Here are a few ideas that come to mind:<p>(1) You have to be very carefull about the "I will never do anything so horrible again". You see, you CAN cheat again, and he can too. It's important to focus on what led you to it in the first place. It is ok for him to think you can do it again.<p>(2) You were not insane, you just did what you did because you needed to do it. It may be difficult to understand, more difficult to explain and very difficult to explain to him, nevertheless it happened and it is important for both of you that you work on what happened. I suggest that you seek couple therapy inmediateley. A therapist will help you communicate effectively in a save environment. Threpy for yourself can be very good too, in my case humanistic therapy inspired on Carl Rogers was and continues to be very helpful. Being honest to yourself and to him will help rebuild trust. DO NOT lie to him. However, in order to express yourself really well and for him to able to go an extra mile, he needs to want to do it, and that I think means couple therapy. If he does not want to open up to you, there is little you can do except wait and see how your relationship winds down. This is what happened to us, and it was terrible. If you say you were insane, he will never believe you, but if you can express something about what you were feeling and be honest about it, he will sense it. He will know it is not easy for you, he will see you are going the extra mile. Then he can believe you and do his part.<p>(3) Steer away from love busters, and if you feel you are communicating well, try to talk less about the affair and more about what you each want from the relationship. Get him to read the articles on this site about emotional needs, he might also want to talk to us in the forum and read posts form other people going through similar experiences, but try not to argue about what happened, it is very difficult thing to talk about without professional help. Anger and fear build up easily.<p>(4) As long as he doesn't hurt you or blackmail you, it is ok for him to express his anger, his fear and distrust. Tell him it's ok, if you love him you have to accept him for who he is, but set a boundary: you do not want the relationship to turn into an eternal circle of anger and fear, that can really ruin things.<p>(5) It is ok for you to have felt and feel insecure. Tell him why you felt and feel this way, tell him about your past life and about the things about him that trigger the feeling of insecurity. But do not accuse him of doing these things. They may be not about you at all and, what is important is that he understands what's going on with, so then he can go the extra mile of being more careful. <p>Well, these are just my ideas. I don't have a formula, I am alone right now, because she was not ready to beleive and trust, but she forced herself to go on with me, while still being angry and hurt and distrustful, and we started drifting apart. I do not know yet what I could have done better, perhaps I could have been less afraid and insecure, but you know you cannot just tell yourself what to feel.<p>Ask him to please get help, you both need it. Do it now that love is still strong. And tell us about it.

Hi InTheClouds,<p>Thank You for your thoughts. I do feel sort of empty, I do miss her very much, but I do not need a woman to define who I am. I know who I am, and I know who she is, and I just feel that we can do great stuff together. I am not obsessed, I have a lot of other aspects to my life, I am great guy actually. I love her and miss her and worry about her and want her back, not because I cannot be myself without her, but because I think and feel we are good for each other.

Not that I believe too much in it, but today I had a lady read tarot cards for me and she says my SO will be back. Great news! I'll concentrate on my plan though. Whatever the cards say, if she comes back and finds me still unemployed and living at my mother's she won't go the extra mile to rebuild our relationship.

This weekend she is to be coming over again to give me back a couple of things. However, I am thinking it might be better to ask her not to come. I don't need the stuff right away, and I want us to meet when more time has passed and there is a better chance of the initial thrill with the OM to have run down, or when she wants to meet me and there is no excuse like giving back stuff. I was thinking of sending her a message like this:<p>Dear (her name), I really do not need the camera urgently, I will be sort of busy this weekend and I do not want us to meet just for the camera, so don't worry about bringing it for now. Take care. Eat. Rest. I love you.<p>Of course I miss her and I would love to see her, but somehow I think it is not the moment yet. Last weekend was hard on me and after she came I just missed her more. What do you great people think?

Ignacio~
Thank you so much for your words, they were very helpful, you have good advice to give!! I wish I had some good advice for you. I guess my advice would be to keep up your hope and faith and all good things will come to you. My SO tells me that in order for him to be able to move on with things, he needs me to give him an answer as to why I did this and why it will never happen again. I've tried to explain that it is not a black and white answer, there are so many things in my past and present, including things that have happened in our relationship that have caused me to have these insecurities that have built up to make me do what I did. I don't think that these are good enough answers for him. His whole view on me as a person has changed. Prior he thought that I was this perfect girl, good morals, innocent, sweet, sheltered, faithful etc....which I am all that but now he thinks that I have no morals, that I'm decieving, that I'm a liar, a cheat, unfaithful and heartless. All things that I feel I am not. He says that most girls don't cheat or betray someone like I have and that I would've done this to any guy that I was dating. He says that he could easily find a girl that would NEVEr cheat on him. All these words are very hurtful to me and of course make me feel even more horrible and guilty than before. Yes, couples counseling would be very helpful, it's just tough, financially. I know that in my heart I would have not done this had we have been married, yes we were in a relationship but we were not married at the time of deception. I wish that he could just ralize this and forgive me. I wish I could prove my faithfulness to him again!! <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" />

p.s. Ignacio~
I agree that you should wait to see your SO, it will make things easier on you. You need to have a good weekend and be happy!! I think that seeing her will only hurt you again. Take care

Hi FORGIVEME. Good to be of some help. I can feel your sadness, I was right there, my SO said the same kind of things, please try not to take it personally, he is hurt and he does not understand. Do not fall into a pattern of you feeling guilty and thinking you deserve to be mistreated. You need to forgive yourself and stand up for your needs and his. If he is hurt, it is because he cares. If you cheated, it was because there is something you need. Focus on the positive side of it al, focus on what you need and he needs. Look, I went through it all and I can tell you I really really do not want to cheat again, but only now, after she left me, do I positively know I would not cheat, because even now that I am alone I have not wanted anybody else. If you want, ask him to email me l_ignacio@mac.com or have him come to the forum.<p>Do you have a thread on the forum?

Hi!<p>Just wanted to reply to your reply. Thanks for replying [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am glad you are not obsessed. I don't want you thinking that is what I meant, ok.<p>Just want you to focus on yourself right now. Take your own advice and forgive yourself. I believe in the cards too. Until she does, face your insecurities and live, sweetie. She'll notice.<p>Good idea...I think you should hold off on seeing her now. If you two are meant to be together, she'll keep coming around. All focus should be on yourself now. Get that job, get your own place, etc..... Change all the things about you that led to the A and her choosing to leave. You don't want to fall back into the same trap when she does come back. Even if she doesn't, you'll still be ok. You'll be doing it for yourself and not someone else. The way it should be.<p>Just my thoughts.
InTheClouds