I will be as brief as possible.

Last night my WW went to get her hair cut at 5:30. She said she was going to get coffee after. I thought it would be nice to surprise her and meet her for coffee and hot chocolate for my son. So I went to the hair salon. She was not there, not at any the stores around. Her car was there. I knew she was with OM. So I pulled my car out of view with my two little ones and waited. OM showed up with WW. I pulled my car over and confronted them. I was very calm and cool and level headed. I surprised myself by my demeaner and I surprised them in many ways. I asked them what was going on. I said to my WW, "I thought you said this was over." She said nothing has changed from what she said on Friday. On Friday, she said that she new it would not work and wanted the A to end. I talked briefly about how their indicisions were dragging this whole thing along and hurting many people in the process. The OM agreed and remained very calm but was very blase' (not sure how that is spelled). She took one of the boys in her car, I think she was scared I was going to take the boys, and we went home.

WW and I talked a long time that night. She told me that she really did not want the A to be over. She said that she called the OM after the confrontation and he confirmed her suspicion that he wanted them to be on hold, but did not want to give her up. My WW does not want to be second to his carrer and second to his wife. She said that even though she told him not to call her again, she hopes that he will and will end his marriage and go after her immediately.

We both agreed that OM and her were incompatible. He is a taker, 10 years older (boy did he look old when I saw him), has 4 children of his own, his personality flaws (maily selfishness and lack of comitment), OMW (her biggest concern) and many others. Even through all of that, she still loves the OM and wants to be with him.

She said she does not care (with regard to feelings) whether I leave or stay. She said she has no feelings for me. I told her it would be impossible for her to have feelings for me when she has feelings for OM. She told me that I am her best friend and OM was not as good as a friend. I told her I wanted her back because I loved her and I told her why. I told her that I wanted what we had before and that we were a perfect fit, and she agreed. I told her that we would be better then ever because of our new found knowledge and maturity.

We talked about two hours and went to bed. I told her that I did not want to loose her, and she corrected me and said "you already have."

We made a quick bet that OM would call her again. She does not think he will, considering that she told OM not to call or contact her again. She wants OM to call her.

I love my wife very very much. I want for us to work and I am willing to hang in. I still believe that the A will end and may end very soon. I still believe that once the OM is out of the picture, she can begin to have feelings for me again.

What do all of you think about this? Any opinions on this mess?

I feel good this morning despite what happened. I feel some closure getting a chance to meet OM. We even shook hands and told each other that WW said nice things about each other. That freaked my WW out. My WW thought that I handled the situation very well and she was impressed.

(((((dreamland))))

I am sorry, but boy I am sooo impressed!!!
If I saw my WH and OW together I think I'd end up in death row and actually wouldn't mind one bit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I think it is time for you to protect yourself. She is definetly cake eating, doing whatever she feels like. She knows you won't leave, so she can afford gambling with OM. She can actually afford sitting on the fence untill OM decides to call her up.

I think that if she cares that little that you go away then maybe a demostration (plan B), would help. I am sure she'd change her tune with separation agreements and joint custody. Of course all of that is very stressful and difficult for the kids, but I don't think it is healthy to have then thinking mom is back and everything will be ok. Creates a false sense of stability and the fall out they will resent later will prevent them from trusting any kind of stable home enviroment.

Of course I am just speculating, but if she is so blalantly disrespectful and you can keep your cool, maybe it is the move to make.

I am so very sorry you are in such position.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Well, good job with the confrontation!

That act in itself might help you... OM gets to see your face when he sees hers now!

It also removes one more little element of fantasy from the mix... those "secret" moments aren't quite as exciting with the knowledge that you've spoken with OM.

Yes, it's a tough road... there is no straight line solution... you will be up and down... keep your energy level up, have a plan, and be prepared for anything!

Hi Dreamland,

Sorry for the setback, but these things happen I guess.

From your posting, I thought about the following: Compare the 3 statements

<strong>
On Friday, she said that she new it would not work and wanted the A to end
</strong>

and

<strong>
She told me that she really did not want the A to be over.
</strong>

and

<strong>
She said she does not care (with regard to feelings) whether I leave or stay
</strong>

Does this sound like a level-headed rational person who made up her mind? I don&#8217;t think so!!

So, your wife clearly hasn't/ couldnt make up her mind (yet.). Hence, keep up the good work, and if/when you're fed up think about stopping all contact.

Secondly, your point about 'whether I leave or stay'. Surely, it's your WW who should leave, not the other way around? [that&#8217;s what folks on this forum were telling me when I considered ducking out].

And finally, yes - your reaction to meeting OM is quite a surprise. I would love to meet 'my' OM in a dark alley one day.

Cheers,
Nick

dreamland,

You did great, I would have lost it!! there is no way I could look at my H (OW"S) I would want to do something to both of them. Good Job!

Mr Dreamland, your wife is still very much in fantasyland. It's my opinion that at this point by continuing in your Plan A you'll just be enabling that fantasy. I think it's extrememly important you atleast get your thoughts together as to what a plan B will require. She needs to feel the reality of what not having you around will be like, not to mention having to take care of herself and only getting to see her children part time. These things aren't really figured in to the "fantasy". I'm not surprised OM wouldn't let wife go...it's got NOTHING to do with love, it's got to do with HIMSELF! He feels bad and doesn't want to be alone...so DUH, he wants to take her down with his already sinking ship. Let him...you've been a doormat long enough.

Alostwife,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it is time for you to protect yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think that I need protection right now. I feel I have grasped the reality of the situation and understand and dealt with this reality. I do not feel hurt right now about last night. I was hurt until we talked last night. I only get hurt when I slip into my dreamland and think everything is O.K.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is definetly cake eating, doing whatever she feels like. She knows you won't leave, so she can afford gambling with OM. She can actually afford sitting on the fence untill OM decides to call her up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. She is benefitting from the comfort, security, and friendship I provide and the feelings part he provides (and that is all he provides). I think she does feel that I will leave sometime. I just do not know when that will be. I do not think she is sitting on the fence anymore. I think in reality she is playing in his yard. When she says she does not care if I leave, I believe that it will devistate her when (if) I leave for Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think that if she cares that little that you go away then maybe a demostration (plan B), would help. I am sure she'd change her tune with separation agreements and joint custody. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your right about her changing her tune. I think if I went Plan B, she would no longer want to be my friend because I would not be able to talk to her anymore. I think that it would get much much worse before it got any better. Sooner or later though, Plan B will probably be my only choice left. I hope it never gets to this. We are so very very close to end of A and recovery now. I am not ready and we are not ready to throw in the Plan A towel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Of course all of that is very stressful and difficult for the kids, but I don't think it is healthy to have then thinking mom is back and everything will be ok. Creates a false sense of stability and the fall out they will resent later will prevent them from trusting any kind of stable home enviroment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the kids are far too young to pick up on any of this. We are very careful with the way we act around them. We are still very nice to each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Of course I am just speculating, but if she is so blalantly disrespectful and you can keep your cool, maybe it is the move to make.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the suggestions and the help. I do not feel disrespected. She has always been up front and honest with me about her feelings (and lack thereof). She is very respectful of me (I think).

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, if you think that is the best course of action, you know your wife better than anybody else.

I think she is being disrespectful to you not because she is lying, which she is if she claimed the A was over and it wasn't, but because she is putting you in a position in which you are obviously being harmed out of her own comfort.
If she respected you enough she'd stop the I am here but I am not game and move somewhere.

If she is not having any feelings for you and not caring whether you are there or not then she should consider start divorce proceedings, be honorable and move on, let you be free to find true happiness with somebody that deserves you.

Plan A doesn't seem to be working if she is already prancing around OM's yard. In which case you are enabling her by being wonderful and cool with it, no repercusions, then she can stay and play as long as she wants.

But once again my humble opinion.
((((lotsa hugs))))) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One good thing about Plan B (especially if he has a wife that he does not want to leave)...she will have no one looking at every move she makes. She will have plenty of free time. She will want MORE from him...she will want him to call her more, see her more, etc. because she will not have to slip around to have contact with him.

BUT (big BUT) his situation will not have changed. He will not be able to be available for her at all times. Hopefully she will be lonely sitting around waiting for a call that does not come when she wants it to. Hopefully she will remember the grace with which you handled everything so far and the love you have continued to show her regardless of her actions.

It does not take long for this double life to get old and she will get impatient with him. He will STILL put his wife and career first and it will be much more noticable to her.

I really think the affair will die it's natural death faster. Just my opinion.

J.R.,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That act in itself might help you... OM gets to see your face when he sees hers now! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WW thinks that this will have a big effect with the OM. She thinks this will keep OM from calling. I do not think it will affect OM, but I guess I can hope that it will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It also removes one more little element of fantasy from the mix... those "secret" moments aren't quite as exciting with the knowledge that you've spoken with OM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope that this is the case too. I also feel I have closure getting a chance to meet the OM. No more wonders about how he looks or what he is like.

dreamland~

I can relate catching the OM and your wife, except my husband had the affair, and I caught them in my home together. (really long story)

It really sounds like this affair needs to die a natural death and that is very hard on the BS. Is Plan "B" possible? You Plan "A" has been really good. As long as your wife focuses on the OM you are your wife won't work on her feelings or marriage with you. Hopefully the OM won't call her and she will be able to get through withdrawal. It will be very tough for her and since you are her best friend she will need you. Once again you will need to put your feelings on the back burner.

I wish you luck, recovery is very possible for you. We are almost 2 years in recovery and things are so much better.

bighope

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: bighope ]</small>

Does OM'sW know about the ongoing A between your spouses?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Nick123,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry for the setback, but these things happen I guess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a setback, no doubt. You are right about her statements. Sometimes they can seem contradictory.
-----------
hope4future,

I was waiting for you opinion on this one. I guess I am trying to get back to my original plans without letting the current situation effect my overall plan. You have some very very good points. She is not in a real situation. She is getting the best of both worlds right now, and it is finally catching up with her. I would like to see what the next few weeks brings.

I know what to do with Plan B. I laid that plan out months ago and is on the shelf custody, arangements, everything all worked out in my mind. I have a time frame in my head. Not that I will keep 100% to the time frame, but I am trying not to let my feelings about this stiuation control my written plan.

I think you are right about the OM. He does not care for her. He has demonstrate no real care for her. He is a major cake eater. He treats his kids, his WW, and my WW like SH**. If that is what my WW wants, she can have it. Her life will be miserable like the OMW's. There is a reason why the OMW has had affairs a very very obvious reason. I hope my WW can see this before it is too late. My patience is almost completely warn out. It is time for her to think about her decision, and act on it.
-----------
Alostwife,

I really do not know what the best decision is. I guess I am playing the devil's advocate to work out everthing in my mind to see all sides of this situation. One thing is for sure, she has told me how she feels and what she wants me to do.

I guess you are right about the disrespect. I am not sure how to guage the Plan A part. I know it has worked somewhat because of the following:

1) I am a better, stronger person.
2) I have learned enough about relationships and life to be very successfull at both.
3) We have become best friends again. Something I really charish.

I do not think Plan A will ever have an affect on the A. That is all up to her and I do not think anything will change that. She has all the control over the A.
----------
Susan,

Very very good points. I get the feeling just about everyone is saying Plan B. I do not want to loose her friendship. I do cherish this. (sounds funny).

BigHope,

Thank you -- Thank you -- Thank you.

I need some encouraging words. I want to be around her if she goes through withdrawl. I am her best friend and because of that, Plan B is so tough to consider. She is at a time of need, and boy do I fill that need for her. OM does not fill that need. He checks out when tough times check in. I wish she could see the OM for what he really is and give him up completely.

I so wish she would commit to working on us. I want back what we were. She is the perfect woman for me. Everyone makes mistakes, I have no ill feelings for her and I have learned why I love her so much. I wish she could see how mismatched her and the OM are. It is just so freakin' obvious and she even agrees to it. So, why does she continue? She nows that the OM path will lead to her self distruction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alostwife:
<strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think she is being disrespectful to you not because she is lying, which she is if she claimed the A was over and it wasn't, but because she is putting you in a position in which you are obviously being harmed out of her own comfort.
If she respected you enough she'd stop the I am here but I am not game and move somewhere.

If she is not having any feelings for you and not caring whether you are there or not then she should consider start divorce proceedings, be honorable and move on, let you be free to find true happiness with somebody that deserves you.

Plan A doesn't seem to be working if she is already prancing around OM's yard. In which case you are enabling her by being wonderful and cool with it, no repercusions, then she can stay and play as long as she wants.

But once again my humble opinion.
((((lotsa hugs))))) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ... I agree, you did well not to have big negative reaction -- Frankly, I could not bare to read all the replies, but this one most resembles my reactions.
I am normally a big teddy bear & I believe my W has taken advantage of my generally calm demenear. IMHO, I would strongly suggest that you not have any kind of friendly conversations with this jerk! Very Enabling!

This has to be extremely difficult & I pray that you continue to cope in such a calm fashion!
There is a lot of research that shows that when two people begin an infaturation, relationship, there are chemical reactions in the brain that cause eurphoric feelings. This is the "charge" they feel that fuels continual contact. I believe that stratigies suggesting just letting the A die of natuarl causes relies on this chemical reaction to wear off --usually 6 months --
Otherwise, any recovery program requires "NO Contact" Unless you agree to an "open" relationship, it should be obvious that you need to take a stand & a strong stand towards your W, that althjough you love her, you will not tolerate this "sharing" thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Perhaps you can suggest you will give her some time, but I would suggest you think about being very clear that she has a choice -- if she wants to put her stock in this OM -- let her go -- otherwise, I would have a big fear, she'll continue in this trend -- if not this guy, then another?? She may feel liberalized to pursue any relationship & not act as if she is married and this could be more of a motivation for her than this guy & it is not really that guy as much as this sense of freedom - not having the inherent restrictions that come with any monogomous relationship! This is made easier when the person has the security of a marriage & the freedom of a single person -- do you owe her the securtiy of a marriage if she chooses to act as a single person? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I strongly recommend James Dobson's book, "Love Must be Tough" as a supplement to the MB things. I don't believe it is in your best interest to become a doormat -- IMHO, you need to be decisive and firm in expressing your feelings about what is fair, most importantly, fair to you & your children!
She probally does not really have strong feelings for this guy, but unless you nip it in the bud, now -- or the longer it last, she could develop more or deeper feelings --?? I further suggest that give her a reason to make a choice now, (that is you will not hang around), otherwise you may be digging a deeper hole to climb out of eventually.
Given the alternatives, she may very well "Snap Out of this!"
Another consideration to help this along would be to contact the OM's W & inform her on the basis that you know & if it were you, in her shoes, you would want to know. That will likely create some stress in his life and speed up his decision -- He wants to keep options open -- come on! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He wants to have his cake & eat it too -- IMHO, Sorry, it just does not work that way!
My two cents worth - Best of luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Prayer's are with you!
HH

dreamland,

Is it then that you don't want to move to plan B to loose her friendship?

Plan A is working for you, and that is good. But, plan A means you are working on yourself and your M should be also working out somehow. For what you say, it isn't, and she feels comfortable with it. She can have OM and you at the same time and nobody is going to put a stop to that. She can freely persue her bf while you are at home for emergencies or lonely moments.

You, are a doormat.

Plan A as far as I understand is not being a doormat. You need to realize that she may or may not get into her senses, but if she was your friend, she wouldn't hurt you, if she was your friend, she would respect you. If she was your friend she'd look up for your best interest.

Friends don't throw each other around and don't go sneaking on each other's backs.

Maybe it is time you set the cards over the table, ask her what she wants out of you, because if she really doesn't care, maybe a friendly separation would be in order.

I am sorry I just don't like it when WS hurt BS. I wish circumstances were so much better for you.

A plan B wouldn't involve stop being friends. It would involve giving each other space, a space for her to decide what she wants for once and for all, and a space for you to become stronger on your own.

Oh well >_< I don't know.

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Alostwife ]</small>

Pepperband,

The OMW knows about the A. She is really ticked off about the whole thing. (She had two A's of her own.) She is the main reason my WW does not want (in her mind) to go with the OM.

Alostwife,

I think I have many reasons right now not to go to Plan B yet. Some of them may be crazy, let me know what you think:

1) Yes, I do not want to loose her friendship. Of course you are right, what friend would put another friend through this kind of pain. My WW unfortunately removes this from her brain when she says I am her best friend. I do to. I guess I should not ignore this fact because it is very relevent.

2) I have a set time I would endure and felt like I could endure the A. I have not reached this time frame yet. This was set as SAA recommended at the start of the Plan A.

3) I have hope that now the A is over. She told the OM never to call again. I think an A is like a bouncing ball. It falls hits the ground and bounces up and down and up and down until finally it comes to a rest. With each successive bounce, the bounce looses height. This bounce was the shortest ever. Last bounce was a few days. Maybe one more bounce or none at all is what I think.

4) She truly is in a fantasy land (dreamland). She is not thinking, acting, or speaking clearly. The words she says to me know, I have to take with a grain of salt.

5) I am scared of Plan B. This is very real. I am terrified that Plan B = Plan D.

6) Many people out there are still dealing with their Plan A many many more months than I have. The only difference between mine and theirs is that she is being honest with me about her feelings and about what she is doing and planning to do. Honesty is a good quality, and can not be ignored in this equation.

7) This is my number 1 reason and I post it here last to try to minimize the real affect this reason has on me. I LOVE HER VERY VERY MUCH. She is the woman I want to be with forever. I am willing to deal with the pain for a while in order to be with her forever.

I'll say 2 things DL:

First; you're either on drugs or you have ice flowing thru your veins! There is NO WAY I would have been able to handle a confrontation like that with such compusure! That was GREAT!!!!

Second; I understand you fear of Plan B, and that after this encounter you have hopes the A will be over. I hope you are right.
However, your W has clearly told you where she's at in her feelings and thinking; so Plan B may not be a bad thing.
1st, she will have to get the OM to fulfill all of her needs, which it appears he cannot do if he's still with his W.
2nd, you will place WW in a position where she will have to make a decision. She will pressure the OM, he probably will not give up his M, and that will cause friction between them. If she sees this, she may become (finally) convinced that this IS a fantasy and that it'll never be able to work, tha he does not have the committment to her that she has for him. It's possible that then she'll be ready to REALLY go back to you.
Just MHO, of course.

Dreamland,

I realize you don't consider my advice particularly valid, but I thought I would chime in on this latest situation just the same. You fear Plan B, and you fear that your W won't fear plan B but use it to move on.

I would like to suggest that YOU are in a position of strength right now although it surely doesn't feel like it. You have a plan. You have a date set to go to Plan B, which is excellent. But, more you have far less to lose that your W and she will only come to realize this when she is confronted with the reality that although you love her deeply you will survive and move on.

Plan B offers you protection, and the ability to continue to recover assuming that recovery occurs. I would like to point out that ending the A doesn' t mean your W will head into recovery. There are reasons for her behavior (good or bad) and those reasons aren't the OM.

Anyway, as I was saying, your W stands to lose a man that loves her very very deeply, YOU. Her compensation for losing you will be OM, who apparently she admits cannot be the man she wants. Yet, he may be her only choice if she blows this. How does she know that there is a chance of blowing this??? Plan B has that affect.

Personally, I suspect this A won't truely end, until OM has more to lose than gain or your W has more to lose than gain. It is well know that an affair is about as selfish an act as anyone can perform, so it is not surprising that it comes down to them balancing things in this way.

So my comment is to not fear Plan B, but use it well when you personal goal is reached. I would also think deeply about the friendship issue. I understand you want to be her friend and you have been a better friend than she deserves at this point. BUT, DL she hasn't been your friend. She has simply been a user to get what she wants with minimum pain to her.

Hopefully that will change, but again I suspect not until the balance tips and she feels she may lose more than she gains.

Hope something I said helps.

God Bless,

JL