NT,

You know what you say about ending the affair and making it up to your H afterwards is an interesting comment. If people could routinely do this sort of thing, give up something like for their own and other's good, there would be no big deal in quiting smoking which is harmful and robs the family of the smokers presence far sooner than normal. There would be not diet centers, because the person would give up eating desserts and only eat "healthy" foods.

The fact is that most people cannot give up something that makes them feel good no matter how much they say they can, or will. Your progress while very good, is just that progress, but not ending the affair. You will very likely need some help.

You said somethings I thought I would reply to.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because if I go to a counselor by myself, he/she is going to tell me that I need to share it all with my husband, if I am going to heal. And if I tell my husband I think we should see a counselor, he is going to ask why and then I'll have to tell. I know, I know, that's the point, I should tell my husband and let him help me get through this. I just don't think he can/will - I think I'd be making things worse, not better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of your arguements are really based on one thing. You do not trust your H, and you really have little respect for him. You are probably sitting there wondering how the heck did he get that out of that quote?

You don't think your H can or will help you get you through this, but you think OM could and did make you happy. You don't respect the your H's abilities and you are making disrespectful judgements about his strength, his dedication, and his love for you. It was these same judgment that very likely led you into the affair. It is those very same judgements that will lead to you growing to view your H as a weak, spineless man, with no real love for you. Why? Because you have already judged him, and found him wanting in the most basic of human characteristics.

You need to tell him so that he can show you what is in his heart. So that he can have a chance to refute what you believe him to be. If you don't, he will forever be in your mind a failed husband. Ironic isn't it? You fail your marriage, and you feel his is too weak to help. Further, you probably do and will resent him. How do I know, it has been seen many times here on this board. The WS NEVER gives the BS a chance to show and prove their love, so interestingly the BS is judged to be inferior.

Your statements indicate just such a judgement. I will point out to you, it is these judgements that will kill your marriage, not your affair.

I do hope you stop and think about this awhile.

God Bless,

JL

JL - I, in NO WAY, feel my husband is weak or spineless, nor do I feel that I am disrespecting him by not telling him. (I will admit that having an A showed disrespect, but not the fact that I am working on endin git on my own.) I am trying to figure this thing out on my own and spare him the pain of my thoughtless actions. I appreciate your post, but I have to say that you are way off base. What I don't want to do is disrupt my family - maybe I should have thought of that earlier, I know. But please don't assume that what you read into my post is accurate...it is not.

And one more thing...sure, OM made me happy for a while. Now I'm realizing at what expense my happiness came, so please understand that I am not as deep in the fog as you think I might be. (Famous last words...? I don't think so!!!) Could you please elaborate on your observations?

Susan - may I ask you a question...how long has it been since you ended your A?

NT,

I didn't say you thought your H was spineless, etc. I said you will come to think of him in that way. It will evolve. Why do I think that? I will repeat a portion of theprevious quote.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I should tell my husband and let him help me get through this. I just don't think he can/will - I think I'd be making things worse, not better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My observations are based on the bold part of the quote. In your mind you have already limited your H's abilities. You have already relagated him to being incompetent at helping you or dealing with this. I think it is a little presumptious on your part. Since you won't let him, he WILL NOT help you or strive to help you. He WILL NOT work on his failings and the reasons you felt that an affair was something you could do. He WILL NOT become a better H to you. And he WILL NEVER really know who he is married to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Of all the things that is the saddest. Because you will put up walls and those walls will protect more than just this secret. They will keep him out of many parts of you.

Consider your statements about not going to a counselor. You cannot do this although it may be good for you in a variety of issues, because it may clue him in. So he and you cannot deal or address other issues that counseling may help because you don't want him suspicious.

NT, can't you see, the Walls are already hurting you??? And by definition your M, and your H? He will be stuck with a W with issues, because she cannot afford to get help because it may raise suspicions. This whole thing does become insidious NT. It really does.

I know you are not ready, but please don't delude yourself into thinking that not telling won't hurt you and your H it will and probably more than you can realize.

I do apologize if you felt like I was attacking you. It was not my intention. This is after all your life not mine. But, what you may not appreciate NT, is that I and I think others here, don't care so much that your H is happy, but that you are happy. We know that if you can become happy your H's life will improve significantly. It is YOU that I am worried about, not your H.

Please do think about this. Actually, I realize that is a dumb statement, of course you are thinking about this or you wouldn't be posting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I guess what I am saying is reflect more on this and give it time.

God Bless,

JL

I ended the PA in early 2000....but it continued as an EA, or trying to maintain a friendship, or whatever you want to call it. I finally quit my job in August of 2000.

So, it has been 2 years of NO CONTACT at all.

I/we were in therapy until approximately a year ago.

Please read what JL has said...and then go back and read it again...and then go back and read it one more time.

I think there is a lot of truth in what he is trying to point out, but on the surface, I am sure it is easy to think that what he says is just nonsense.

He is a very wise man and has been around a long time. And you see from when I registered on the board that "it was A Long Time Ago!" He held my hand and coached me along every step of the way during my turmoil. I respect what he says and listen up when he speaks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (waving now to JL). I advise you to do the same.

Another reason I think therapy is very helpful... I sense that you are quick to take defense or think that we don't understand. A counselor can help you explore all of this and dig deep within yourself without feeling threatened. They can guide you along and help you look at and see things from different points of view.

And, sweetie, we'll be more than happy to help and pull you along in any way we can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Our only purpose in being here is to HELP!

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Dear Never ...
Just Learning's comments to you are absolutely correct ... and very pro marriage recovery. I think you do not yet have a strong grasp of the marriage builder concepts. Please read the MB concepts again ... and re-read JL's posts to you several times ... We all want to help your marriage survive ... and THRIVE. And, most of us have experience with doing this after an affair.

Please re-read these things.

Take care ...

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS ... Isn't Susan just the best !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hello never,

Well, I don't think you realize this, but you have two of the greatest MB'ers writing to you in this thread: JL and Susan. They have both been around as long or longer than I have, and they both know their stuff! Listen to them!

I hardly write anymore, but your thread touched my heart.

My affair effectively ended my marriage. My story is very long and very convoluted, but let's see if I can give you a ~ short version~ My ex-H was a serial cheater, but I loved him and lived with it. He did try to get better and was a good husband sometimes. He was abusive, but it didn't seem like it to me. He pulled my hair, pushed me, that kind of thing. I was married for 18 years when I did the unthinkable: had an affair with a man I worked with. I slept with the OM once only. I wanted to die. My (then)H decided that he couldn't handle my cheating and began some new affairs. I filed for divorce, and before it was final, met a new man. I'm married to that man now. He is a beautiful man and a wonderful husband, but it was so wrong to do things as we did. I live with the reprocussions of that choice now.

I hope that explains some of what I am going to say to you.

Never,

My mother is a psychotherapist, and she has told me that it was a mistake to tell my ex about my affair. After all, it was one roll in the hay, right? Problem was (and is) that by not telling, you essentially are saying that you know how your spouse will act. You don't know. Nobody knows until it happens. My ex acted horribly, but do I wish I hadn't told him? No. Why? Because a person of integrity MAKES THINGS RIGHT with honesty. Yep, he'll be hurt. You can COUNT ON THAT. Yes, he'll be pissed. Wouldn't you be? Yes, he'll FINALLY know that there's a problem SO BIG in your marriage, and HE is a part of that problem. He will change how he does some things. So will you.

But when you don't tell, you don't give him the chance to change.

About working with your OM. This is the HEIGHT of cruelty. You don't realize it now, but you will one day. YOU CAN'T WORK WITH THE OP AND MAKE YOUR MARRIAGE WORK. My opinion. Let me tell you how it ended on the last day of contact with the OM for me.

I was divorced, and getting ready to move to be with my (now)H. The affair had been over for 18 months, and I saw the OM for 40 hours a week throughout that time. He kept promising to leave me alone, but there was always little "somethings" -- stolen glances, or more overt things that he and I understood. You know what I mean. On the last day of work, he helped me carry out some boxes to my car (wasn't he helpful? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).. and here's what he said:

I have always loved you
I love you now
I will always love you

See, I remember. AND IT MAKES ME SICK. What an effing pig to say that to me!! What the hell was this man thinking? I'm divorced, partly because of him and our "love" and now I'm leaving to be with my new HUSBAND... and he's saying this? WHAT A PIG!

Now, I'm sure you aren't to that point in your thinking... and even that day, when OM said that to me... I was like... ah, gosh, you really feel that way?... how, um.. nice, I guess? I wasn't convinced that he was anything but a *nice* guy, trying to be kind on my last day there. NO CONTACT has pulled my head firmly out of my hiney to see this man for who he truly was: an opporutnistic prig.

Trust me never... you will NEVER know how it can be until you come clean with your H, and see the OM for who he truly is... and that can't happen without NO CONTACT.

Please listen... because your life truly cannot be one of integrity without it.

Best wishes as you rebuild your marriage...

I could be wrong...I could be way, way off...but, I think I have been there and I think I know what you could really be feeling.

You want to END IT with the OM. You want to devote your energies to your marriage and your husband. It is clear in your head. But, is it possible that in your heart, you are just NOT there YET? There is a part of you that is scared of letting go of the OM? Are you afraid of that?

I know I was for a while. I am thinking and sense from what I am reading that you are still at that point. Possibly the pain has not become great enough that you are ready to make the FULL change yet.

And you know...it is your life. Whatever you decided to do, it is really no sweat off our back. It won't really make any difference to us in the long run. We only sit here typing for hours hoping that we can spare someone else some of the pain we have already experienced or help you find the joy that we have found in a healthy marriage.

Even if you NEVER tell your husband, I still feel that counseling could be critical for YOU. It would provide deep insight for you in knowing what is deep within you and why you needed this affirmation from another man. Do you depend on feedback from others to make you happy? Can you be happy and content with yourself, regardless of ANYTHING else? You cannot imagine the world of help it can provide until you have tried it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God bless!

<small>[ July 26, 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Hey Never,
I just wanted to say that JL has posted to me and I have had much the same INITIAL reaction as you did. Then, I have gone off and thought and thought and thought some more and come to the conclusion that what he says makes absolute sense and is the truth.
I can't express to you how clearly he sees this issue and if you will think about it, you will see what I mean.
Hope you are doing well.

Just Learning,
You post was very enlightening. In my case, I don't feel my husband has any respect or confidence in me. We have been married for 27 years and he still calls me if I have to drive 50 miles away to see if I got there in one piece.(I am the BS) I think he sees me as a weak person. I am not that at all. After 3 or 4 known A's of his, I have survived and I feel each time I have grown from them...(YUK). He obviously hasn't or he wouldn't keep doing it. But here is my question:

How do I change his image of me as that weak, helpless person? I want him to be able to tell me the things he told OW; his disappointments, his dreams. I can handle the good and the bad. I think I show that by still being married to him.

Thanks.

NT,
I can't tell you how much good advice you are getting. I hope that you take some of it into consideration.

I can tell you this. Since my H found out about my affair. (Not the best way to go about it.) But since he knows, we have BOTH worked TOGETHER on rebuilding AND improving our marriage. The progress that we have made would not have come about it we weren't in this together. In some respects we are much stronger than we have ever been.

Again, I will tell you this is your decision. But take it from us. Most of us have been in your shoes. And if you have read on this website about how to end an affair you know that you should tell him. Here is the link if you haven't read it. How affairs should end

Most of us here will tell you to do no less. I understand how your are feeling though. I was afraid to tell because I was afraid of loosing my husband. Plain and simple. I was taught that affairs were the end of a marriage.

But I found out differently. And I think that you might too. It's a mess right now, and you are the one responsible for making it. But messes can be cleaned up, believe me.

I hope this helps,
1step

I haven't abandoned ship - just no time to write today. Thank you so much for all of your insight and advice. I am reading and thinking and will write more tomorrow...I appreciate your help more than you know!

I'm off with a friend this morning to a little antique shop in a nearby town...but, I wanted to leave you with food for thought.

Ponder this:
The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you MAD!

I'll be back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Yesterday was tough and I don't know why. I just really felt myself slipping, wanting to email, thinking about OM a lot. When my husband got home from work, I picked at him and caused us to have a spat. We made up this morning, but I know why I did it...because I was caught up again in those feelings and fantasies.

Today has been great. I've stayed busy and have had stray thoughts of OM, but they are manageable and under control. I think I'm getting stronger...believe me, I've been reading post after post here, gaining strength and resolve to do what is right.

Just a side note...do any women feel that this roller coaster has anything to do with their menstrual cycle? I was good up until yesterday, now I'm PMSing like crazy! (Sorry guys, may be more info than you need or want to know!)

I always related it more to the relationship with the OM than PMS. I told him I made him happier at home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

For example, before a weekend I was grumpy. But, once Monday came or I was able to see OM, or talk to him and get my fix, I was happier too. It was easier to be *nicer* to my husband. When I was sad or missing him, I staged disagreements with my husband. This way in my mind I could justify WHY I was in love with OM and not my husband. Heck, during that time, EVERYTHING my poor husband did bothered me. It even bothered me the way he would chew his food!!!

Now, I know it was all related to the addiction. I had a disease. I was sick. Once I got it all in proper perspective, my husband is really a great guy (and his eating habits are perfectly normal.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) It is amazing, not much of anything rubs me wrong the way it did during the affair.

It is much easier to see in hindsight than in the present.

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

"It even bothered me the way he would chew his food." ..... Oh Susan ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Remember the scene in "Enchanted April", the one where Lolly is watching her H chew his dinner and you can tell it bothers her ... LOL

We women ... we are really hard to please! LOL!

Pepper

Susan,
That is funny about the food chewing thing. But it is sooo true! I went through the same thing! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It's amazing how things have changed. Now that nothing is hidden anymore, (the affair), we have learned how to meet each others EN's. And it seems to come effortlessly. It is wonderful! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

1step

mad about him,

I really cannot address if he thinks you are weak. I guess I would tell him just what you posted here. You can handle it and have handled worse. It is time for him to open up.

Now about you going on a short trip and him worrying about you. I just have to answer that one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am a decade older than you and your H, I have spent my whole life traveling by car, plane, you name it. Have visited and worked in many places in the world. I love to drive and to me that is vacation. My W is in her 50's. Drives 20,000+ miles a year just hauling kids around (ours are younger, but we are now down to just one in HS, I am a slow learner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

She is a very good driver, probably as good as I and has never had a ticket. I have had one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . She is extremely competent, and if I vanished today, she could carry on very well without me. I don't think she worries on bit when I travel. BUT, if she and one of our children are going somewhere (soccer tournament, basketball tournament, football game, or visiting one of our children in college) I WORRY ABOUT HER. It may be age, but I worry about losing her much more than I think she worries about losing me. I always have. Yet, I was a batchelor until my 30's and can really do fine on my own.

You explain that to me, and I will explain to you why your H worries about you. I don't think it is because he thinks you are weak. I guess it is just us guys worrying about these things. We also know that we are not subject to the sort of attacks and other things that women can be. THe world is not an equal place and it never will be.

So, I would suggest that you take his concern for you more from the stand point of his concern, than YOUR WEAKNESS. I somehow doubt that is the case.

Oh, one more thing. It has been observed on this site many times that the WS often distrusts the BS more than the BS distrusts the WS. It is strange, but it seems to be so. Perhaps his checking is abit of that as well. One thing seems clear, inspite of his various failures, he obviously still cares about you.

Talk with him about this and tell him what you told us. You just might start a breakthrough.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Susan, old friend, it is good to see you back on here again. It is good to hear that you are doing so well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

NB, what have you been up to? You have been very quiet lately. Send email if you want to talk.