Well, I haven't posted for quite a while, but there seem to be some new developments.

The situation is this - H and I have been apart most of July - he had business trips away from home - we met up for a week together in between, with my family, so even though we were on vacation, my family were there - since I haven't seen my family for a long time (we live in different countries), this was very good for me, and our boys got to visit with their cousins. I snapped at my H a couple of times during the week, but we also had some very nice times together. I told H one night while we were all out to dinner that I still loved him. He squeezed my hand under the table, but that was all. Last week, I had to myself with the boys and I felt a lot more peaceful about everything. I felt very accepting of anything that might happen in the future. I am ready to let him go, if that is what happens. I am not going to leave myself, because I am still willing to work on our marriage, but if he chooses to go, then I can let go of the emotional bond I have had with him for 17 years. I feel that I am ready to do that now. I went to church on Sunday and felt a great sense of peace in accepting this situation. I accept that our marriage has failed and that I have failed my H in some essential way. I accept that he wants to blame me for everything. If we separate, I accept that he will blame me for everything. I can live with him blaming me for everything. I know in my heart that I have tried to love him as best I can, that I have done everything I can to change the things about myself that were damaging our marriage. I have tried to communicate. I could list all the things I have done. But nothing has made any difference. So I am ready to let go.

He came home Sat nite from his trip - he was tired, but good-humoured. I was pleasant and cheerful and showed interest in him and what he had been doing. That night he made love to me - well, he wanted sex and he got it - it did not lead to any intimate conversation, nor did he say he loved me. But we were peaceful and kind with each other. Sunday he had to work all day and I wasn't up before he left. I know what time he finishes and I knew he was tired - its a long drive home and I expected he might be a little late bcos people would want to talk to him. Usually he calls me if he is going to be late. He didn't call. He didn't show up until 10 pm - I made dinner, and finally, we ate without him. The boys kept asking me where he was and what time he would be home - remember this is his first day back, and they hadn't seen him for a week and had spent most of July away from him. It was unbearaby hot, so I was letting them stay up later, until their bedroom cooled off a little. They were worried about him and finally I was worried about him. Finally at 10 he breezes in. By that time I was mad, but I was polite about how I was cross - I said we were worried about you and you didn't call us so we didn't know if something had happened to you. I made dinner, but I didn't know if you were coming home, so we ate without you. He said he had gone out for a drink with some friends who showed up and he didn't have his mobile with him. He said he would have had to find a phone to call me - presumably they were in a pub, and every pub has a public phone. Both his friends have mobiles and he could have asked to use one of theirs. After the boys were in bed, I said, since I am trying not to point the finger, but only articulate things in terms of my feelings - I said - "I was worried about you because I care about you. I made dinner and when you didn't call me to tell me whether you would be home or not, I feel like you take me for granted." He said he was sorry and we went to bed peaceful.

The next morning, I told him about MB. I think it is time to be honest. I don't have any secrets I want to keep from him, and I feel this site has been very positive and helpful to me. I told him about it in a very careful way. I told him about the discussion forum and how it works, I told him that Dr. Harley's principles are very practical and that he might find it helpful to read some of his articles, as I had. I did not tell him my forum name. I am anxious that he will find out my forum name and start using what I say here against me, but I feel that I need to be honest and share with him what has been positive and helpful to me. I accept that he might use this against me.

So yesterday, I said the wrong thing - I said something about his family that upset him and he turned off. He got angry and stayed angry and it was the same old thing - I tried to say we needed to see a marriage counselor together to talk about things in a safe and neutral environment. He said I was pushing him too hard. He stormed out and said that he was at the end of his patience and he didn't want to live like this anymore. He said I could have a divorce if I wanted one (this is new). He said he has tried and tried but I don't change. I am still the same as ever. I stood and quietly listened to him. If I walk away, he accuses me of storming out. We were going to take the kids out for the afternoon, but I said it would be better if I didn't go. He didn't like that either. His parting words to me as they left were - you said you wanted a D, you can have one!

Well, I thought I was reacing a place of acceptance - not coming home showed me I still get angry when he is inconsiderate to us. Yesterday I cried after he left so he can still hurt me. I am still hurting, so I guess I haven't really let go. But I accept that he may leave.

When he got home, he was in a good mood again. He poured himself a drink and went outside. I was making dinner and got out a lawn game to play - I was trying to be sociable. We all had a nice time and got through dinner OK. I was washing dishes and he came in the kitchen. In front of our son, he started questioning me about how I had left the floaties out of the bag they took to the beach. He said he didn't know if X was water-safe yet and that he should be wearing floaties in the water if he wasn't. I said he wasn't water-safe but since he was with his parent, I assumed that he would keep an eye on him. He wasn't happy with this. Finally I said, I'm sorry I forgot to put the floaties in the bag, I guess it would have been my fault if he drowned. He said in an angry voice no, it would have been MY fault if he drowned because I was suppposed to be watching him. I went back to the dishes. I said nothing.

He went in the other room where other son was watching TV. Son said something to him (I think it was can you and M not argue) - H flipped and sent S to his room - said he was being disrespectful. Came back in the kitchen. Other son (6 yrs old) said what did he say that was bad? - H said not you too - you can go upstairs too if you start. Little son started to cry and turned to me, said I didn't do anything. H went outside. I said its ok lets finish dishes.

After 15 minutes, and no sounds from upstairs I went up to talk to S who was in his room. I was not interfering with H discipline. In my mind, we work as a team and support each other, but I talk to my boys about what they say and I listen to what they have to say. I support my H in discipline and that was what I was intending to do then. H blasts into the room angry and ordered me out. Both sons now present. He said I was interfering with his discipline and that I had no right. He said this was the end, the last straw and he would not stand for this anymore. He was yelling and angry. He said he was the father in this house and what he said goes. I said I was his mother and that what goes in this house should be an agreement between both of us. I said I was his mother and I had a right to talk to him about how he talked to his father. H again ordered me to leave. I said I would leave if he agreed to talk to me about this incident in private afterwards. H said no. I looked at my son. I looked at my H and said then what happens is on your shoulders. He said fine. I left the room.

I went downstairs. A few minutes later they came down. H went outside. I looked at my son who was tense and angry. I said was I rude to Daddy? He said no. I said was Daddy rude to me? He said yes. I said I was sorry I had put him in the middle between us. He came and hugged me. Then they all went out to ride their bikes. They came home relaxed and happy.

I put on a funny video after they had gone to bed. H was more relaxed. We didn't fight. I couldn't sleep - I moved to the guest room last night.

This morning. he said he was sorry about yesterday and he is at his counselling appointment. I said we need to make an appointment to go talk to someone about our future for the sake of the children.

My life is a nightmare. I am feeling really stressed. My children are caught in the middle. I don't know what to do. I see my counsellor this eve. How would you live in this situation?

LIR

H came home from his counselling appt with flowers for me. But no talking.

I realize these flowers are a peace offering, but I see the same old pattern here. I do not want flowers or apologies. I want to talk in a safe place so that this horrible cycle can be broken and we can agree on how we are going to face the future. H is cheerful again and again, I am down and it is all on me. Friends say "you have to lighten up" - I need to be safe and with someone who wants to work with me. I can't lighten up in this environment where EVERY conversation with my H becomes an opportunity for him to find fault with me and then escalates into an argument. I spend my time when he is here avoiding being in the same room with him. My son was watching TV today and said, about the romantic hero and heroine - "see, they had a fight and then they get back together again, just like you and Daddy." Son now thinks that this kind of cycle is normal. I am really worried about my sons future. Last night my H ordered me out of the room in front of both of them. I guess he thought he was being a man and taking charge. What did my sons see? My sons saw their father angry and shouting at their mother, they saw him bully her. They saw him humiliate her. He came down several notches in their eyes last night and he hasn't got a clue. I asked my little son if he wanted to be like Daddy when he grew up and he wouldn't answer, just squirmed, then he said "I want to be a NICE man when I grow up."

Now they have gone out again.

Someone please answer my post. This is serious. I don't know how long we can go on.

LIR

Dear LIR
(((((())))))) Hug for you!
I am so sorry to hear how fraught things are for you at the moment. I am not in a position to offer advice - as you know, things are still very new and raw for me at present. I want you to know that I am around if you need to vent.

You know, WH and I struggled with anger, resentment, etc for what seemed like forever. He says now that he doesn't think he experienced "the fog", but I think differently. Perhaps your H is so deep in there, that the cannot see the damage he is doing. You are absolutely right to seek counselling together. Your boys will remember what is going on and they will pick up on the tension between you. The statements on D are probably threats to try to manipulate you into doing what he wants. If he was actually forced to make the decision once and for all, he would probably not want to leave. I know that talking to him seems futile at present, but have you tried the "dining room table" angle? Asking him to sit down for a specified period of time and talk for - say - 10 mins, uninterrupted by you. Then he has to do the same while you say what you need to. Then you spend 20 mins discussing how to move forward from this point in a way that will respect both your feelings i.e. seeing a counsellor so that you can have a "mediator" when discussing difficult issues.

I know that this sounds awkward, but it has helped us to quite a large extent. We now use our counselling sessions to discuss issues that are particularly volatile between us - that way it doesn't get out of hand and when we leave the C's office, it's over.

I'm thinking of you and praying that you find strength to get through this. It is not easy when you love someone!!
Fishwife

Thank you Fishwife -

I cannot seem to get my H to go to counselling with me. On D-Day (6 Feb) I wrote my H an e-mail - I was so upset with him that I couldn't bear to see him or talk to him, so I e-mailed him. I asked him to give me space to sort my head out. I said I was not able to talk to him right now, that I needed to see someone first and sort through my own feelings, then I would be able to talk to him. I said he needed to get counselling to deal with the deep personal problems he had which were ruining our lives.

That night he goaded me into a fight and I ended up punching him. I had gone to see our parish priest (married priest) earlier in the day. I was so upset because this was the 2nd woman he had formed an "attachment" to and 2 months earlier, my SIL (his SIL) had committed suicide - I had also had a miscarriage and D&C the week before her suicide. I was so upset because the weekend she committed suicide I should have called her and didn't because I was upset at finding OW1's phone no on my H's cellphone log - believe me when I say I know how bad you can feel about snooping. I felt that if I hadn't been so upset about OW1 and tempted to look at his cellphone, my SIL might still be alive - I might have talked to her and said something that might have made a difference. I thought my H realized after that the value of a loving wife and I thought he was getting the message of how much I loved him, so I was totally devastated when I found his messages and e-mails to OW2.

Well - my H is now in individual counselling and I support him in this. I told him that his bullying was the real problem, not the OW - that, in my mind, does not make it OK for him to have these kind of friendships with OW. But I believe my H is suffering from the abuse he has taken all his life from his parents - I told my H I would stay with him if he would make a commitment to work through these problems in counselling. And he is now in counselling. But I was also ready to begin marriage counselling and told him so back in February. Now, he refuses to talk about anything with me - he says his counselor says I am unreasonable - his big beef is talking in front of the children and how damaging that is to them. He does not see that HE is the one who escalates any conversation into an encounter where he is shouting at me and that that is what upsets the children. I have had him screaming at me that it's my fault he is angry when my 6 year old was sitting in my lap crying. He could fight standing in a room alone with himself.

I have said several (about 4 times since Easter) that we need to talk about this in counselling. He now trawls up my e-mail and screams at me that he is doing what I told him to do and I can't have it both ways. I never said to him that I wouldn't go to MC unless he "fixed" all his problems. But he uses everything he can as a tool to beat me with. I guess the truth is he is just not ready to go to counselling and I have to be patient. I am so afraid of him - he is so spooky when he is angry. I could try suggesting to him that and let him go first - but I am afraid of any conversation with him without a 3rd party present.

Thanks for the hug. I needed that. Waiting for a thunderstorm here - how about you?

LIR

Hi Lady, sorry to hear your story. My instincts tell me that maybe he hasn't ended his affair. You say he went out for a whole day after he came back and didn't call you once. That sounds rather fishy to me. In Dr. Harley's "Surviving an Affair" chapter 4, he talks about the WS's ways of keeping distance in their marriage so the WS can keep their secret life going. I'm wondering if this is what is happening in yours. I hope I am wrong, and I hope you have a copy of this book. There is a Marital Recovery Agreement that is excellent in the back of the book. This is a wonderful plan (I needed a plan so I could learn to trust again). I hope you can use it too when your husband is ready.

Dear LIR
I am so sorry! It is completely unacceptable for you to be afraid of your WH. If he is so blind as to rage at you for his emotions/issues, he needs a bit of distance. I say this because you have to feel safe and secure when you talk about your marriage. You need to be able to trust eachother to listen and absorb what you are saying. You need to be singing off the same hymn-sheet with regard to your children and you need to be respected. Your post is filled with pain. I can identify with some of it, but I have never felt physically threatened by my WH and we are trying to teach our boys that it's okay to fight, provided you are controlled and calm and resolve it amicably. Also, once the sorries are said, it's over (the arguement) and all is forgiven then. Sounds good - doesn't always work in practice! But he needs to identify what sort of behaviour he expects from his sons and act accordingly. They will begin to resent his bullying and he may wind up losing all of you! Is there anyone that he truly respects, who could act as a mediator until he is ready for counselling?

I often wonder where we would be if I had never looked at my WH's cell phone, but fate has a way of doing things and nothing we do can stop it. You cannot hold yourself responsible for your SIL's actions. Speaking as someone who once counselled people in realy danger of committing suicide, I have to say that once a person has made up their mind, very little will stop them. Often they plan the deed meticulously - even cancelling the milk in some cases - right down to making sure that their kids won't be the ones to find them. It is a terrible experience for loved-ones - one riddled with guilt and bewilderment. I am sure that she would be horrified to hear of how you feel responsible, so please try to remember that we are all responsible for our own actions - even our WS, who make the decision to have an affair - even if we, in our own way, contribute to it. Sorry to ramble - just wish I could help! No, no thunderstorm here - but there is promise of one tonight. Brilliant the way they clear the air and leave everything fresh and new ... makes you think, doesn't it?!
Best regards to you - thinking of you.
Fishwife

Hi LIR,
I keep wanting to type an O for your name, whats up with that?

I suppose I was in much the same place as your H. I won't go into all the reasons, I don't know if I understand them. I suppose excuses would be an even better term than reasons. The bottom line is that I had a problem and wouldn't admit it. I came around slowly over many years.

I knew the way I acted was slowly tearing us apart. I didn't know what to do about it. Sometimes I would seem to understand the problem and do well for weeks and even months. Sometimes the smallest thing would set me off, and I would think I was justified in my actions.

Most of my changes came about because of lessons or sermons in church. My actions didn't square with the way I knew God wanted me to act. I tried to change but it was slow. My big chance came when I found MB in January of 2002. My wife says I have had a great change of heart. I think my heart had changed a long time ago, but in reading "Love Busters" and "HNHN" I learned what things were the biggest problem, and how to get rid of them, so the changes in the last 6 months have been faster.

I suppose I am writing this to give you hope. We men can change. I sometimes wonder if I would have sought counseling long ago if my wife had forced a separation. I may have left? I don't know, I was pretty proud. She just loved me and I finally came around.

I know you have other issues, I don't have a suggestion for you about him. I don't know what you should do. I can tell you my wife says many times she prayed and asked " I am tired of this, can I just leave now." and the answer always came to stay. She says now she was glad she did, but it was sure difficult.

W has explained that after so long, she just built walls around herself to keep out the bad, consigned herself to taking the little good and making the best of it and just going on. Now the walls are coming down, we are in love again, it is as DR Harley says it can be. But it was, and sometimes still is hard.

If you believe in prayer, please pray. It has helped me to get where I am now, helped my wife to know what to do with me. I hope you have good days too, not all bad. I wish I could help more, but just offer you a little support along with everyone else. Hope you are OK today.

SS

BTW, I am 46 years old. Wife will be 45 in two weeks.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

(((((HUGS)))))) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I missed you.

You sounded so great at the begining of your first post. I was so impressed by the progress you made, but then I read the rest of your posts. I am so so so sorry. I have been dealing with quite a bit myself.

Big thing I need to say: Do you find that when he is happy - you get happy; when he is mad -- you get mad; when he is angry -- you get angry. Do you see the pattern. I know because I too suffer from this dilema. What posseses us to depend upon others for our feelings so much that it acts retroactively. My hapiness when I am around WW depends so much upon her hapiness and her validation of me. She can turn a fantastic day into a meaningless pile of dung in a word or a mean stare. How terrible that makes me feel. I wish I could pull from this tar baby. I try and try and continue to get stuck. The more emotionally attached I become, the more I am dependent upon WW for validation of myself.

I am struggling and hoping to find an answer to this one. I have been reading "Passionate Marriage" to help me with this one. No -- I still have not finished it, no time.

On a happy note. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I PURCHASED A NEW CAR YESTERDAY. YES!!! I have been driving a 12 year old piece (no AC) engine blew (Honda Civic). I got a 2003 VW Passat GLX. SWEET. I am in love again. I have found something I can put my love in and not get hurt. LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Being 1/2 German and 1/2 Italian, I figured German would be cheaper way to go then Italian.

When I get some time alone, I need to tell you a few things that have transpired.

I am happy to see you back.

(((HUGS))) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you everyone for helping me get through yesterday. The mood in our house has relaxed again, but again, I am aware that that is part of this cycle which I am trying to break.
---
pjb - thank you for responding to me - my H was at work all day that day, and went out with friends afterwards without telling me - I know he wasn't with OW because she is back in her home country now and living with BF. I am not sure whether or not she is still in touch with H by e-mail. On our recent holiday in France, it seems he was not using his cellphone - if he had wanted to, he could have bought the service to use over there, but he didn't. I was worried that they would be in contact, but apparently not - I know this bcos he was supposed to go stay with a friend during his week in the Netherlands, and when I got home, I found messages from this friend on our answer machine - he had not heard from my H and had been TXTing his cellphone. My H said he had been trying to call him, but hadn't been able to reach him - it turned out my H had the wrong phone no. I found this reassuring - a sign that my H wasn't attempting to make contact with her. So I think this EA is probably over, but will not be 100% sure until H confirms this for me openly. I feel he needs to do this as part of rebuilding trust between us.
---
FW - thank you so much - yes, I know now that I am not responsible for my SIL suicide - and now, many months after her death, we have had the autopsy results, which show that she had ingested a dose of medication twice what was needed to kill her, as well as using another method - this other method would have been enough - she made certain she could not even save herself if she wanted to change her mind. I do think she planned this - it still took us all by surprise. But at the time, I felt very guilty about not calling her - I still feel bad about that and always will - I also feel that I have not "been there" for my BIL as I could have been had my H and I not been going through these problems. The good thing is that my BIL is very supportive of my H in his counselling, because he is also in counselling.
--
Dreamland! I am so glad you are back, too!
And you do sound better - a new car! I know nothing about cars, so I will have to look up this model to really appreciate it - but it sounds real nice and shiny to me! Keep polishing! I do know exactly what you mean about mirroring moods - and yes, I agree there can be an unhealthy co-dependency about this kind of thing. But I also think, as SH has said to others, that the love between H and W is conditional, not unconditional - part of maturing in our intimate relationships is to recognize that what we do affects our partner, and if we are together in a healthy way, if our partner gets upset with us for something, we will try to address what we have done so that we don't offend or continue to hurt the person we love. If our partner is happy, we can be happy for them and with them. But yes, we do have to learn to disconnect our happiness or unhappiness from them so that we are not TOTALLY dependent on their changeable moods - this is an unhealthy attachment and too much of a burden to place on one's partner. I think I have been guilty of this somewhat - too self-sacrificing - so I am also trying to "re-discover" what it is I enjoy - I am finding out that I am happy and do enjoy things without having to be in his company, without feeling I have to share them with him. This has given me more confidence. My depressed feelings all stem from feeling trapped in a lose-lose situation.
---
ss - I so appreciated your post - you sound so much like my H and I, while my H and I are going through this bad time, since he is now in counselling, I am hopeful that he will be able to deal with the issues that compel him to behave in this way, as you have had the courage to do. I relate completely to what you said about your wife - I have high walls around me now - I look for the good and enjoy it for what its worth - but I have to protect myself from the bad. My H is very special to me - the good in him tells me is a special and precious person whom not just me, but many people could admire, love and respect. Its not his fault he was brought up in the way he was - and people's bad experiences leave scars - my H is a very sensitive person - he is also very strong-willed. I am still hopeful that he can heal himself as you are doing. I have read a lot about survivors of abuse (abuse of all kinds) and it is possible to change, but taking responsibility for one's own behaviour is the crucial part - this is what you have done and I am positive your wife loves you all the more because of it. Your story really moved me and thank you for sharing it with me.
--
Some positive signs - I went to my counselling appt yesterday - H took kids to the beach - I was very down when talking to the counsellor - but felt at the end that she finally understood what I am dealing with here - she told me I have to keep contact with my network of friends and that she will talk to her supervisor to get advice as to how best to proceed. I told her that as to my H, I know he has his own issues that he needs personal counselling for - this is absolutely vital, but that nothing will change in the dynamics of our R until we can get into MC together - this is all I want - I need someone to help me change what it is I can change about how I communicate with him - he has to do his own part - I said I was not interested in flowers or apologies - I want change and that will only come through talking - I don't want my H to do things he feels guilty about and then has to apologize for - this is exactly the cycle I am trying to break. I don't want to be right - I don't want counselling so I can have someone on my side, and him to have a counsellor that he feels is on his side, I want change. I said if I had to get out of this marriage, I wanted to get out in one piece and right now I do not feel safe. I don't want to talk to him without a 3rd party present. I felt better after talking to her.

When I got home, my H was making dinner and he made and served the whole dinner and washed up afterwards. I DID thank him for this. Then his brother called. His B offered to take the boys for the whole weekend - this will give us some time alone together - this will be the first time we have had time alone together since they were born - I am really encouraged that my H leaped at the chance.
I don't know what we will do, but I am hoping we can find something fun to do together. My H then came and asked me how my counselling appt went - i said it was good - I said "How was yours? Is there anything you talked about that you would like to share with me?" He said that as to my question about going to MC, of course he would like to talk to me, but that there were still a couple of things that he was working on in his counselling that he needed more time with and that he thought that was what I "required" of him. I said that I never meant that he had to "fix himself" completely before we talked together in MC - he said that's how my e-mail came across - I said that was not what he meant - he said OK and we left it at that.

To me, this is a very positive conversation between us. I feel hopeful again.

I have to go now - he will be coming in the door any second - I appreciate all your support and will be back to keep you all updated.

LIR

Well, another day - not bad - but here's how it went - maybe someone has some ideas about how I could have done better at handling today.

We all got up late - its summer - we're all hanging out - everyone in relaxed mood - I accidentally spilled some water on the kitchen floor - since I had a pile of dirty laundry on the floor next to the washing machine and there was a bathtowel in that pile, I grabbed that and mopped up the water. It wasn't much - the floor is linoleum and not filthy. H looks at me and says "Don't you think it would be better to use something else to mop up that water with - I mean, like a rag or something - " "this is OK" I say "It needs to be washed anyway" - he says "But it just makes the towel dirtier and its harder on the washing machine to get it clean - but don't let me stop you" - give me a break - I say nothing and carry on what I am doing without reacting - he takes it no further. But this is the kind of nit-picking, irrational control-freak behaviour that makes me grit my teeth - I couldn't believe he would rationalize this by saying the washing machine would have a hard time washing a little dirt out of a towel - is this normal?

So we decide that after lunch, we will take the kids out - I go shopping, I make lunch - then he says he just has to go out at 3:20 to pick up some boxes - he didn't tell us he had to do this when we decided we would all go out "after lunch" - so I tell the kids we will have to wait to go out until Daddy gets back from his errand. Daddy goes out, saying "I'll be right back - in a few minutes and then we'll go." He comes back about an hour later. He has done his errand, but has also gone cruising the summer sales for new clothes for himself (which he needs) and found some good bargains. Just as he walks in the door, I am in the midst of sorting a fight out between the boys - to ease the tension between them, and since it is now teatime (UK) I suggest we all have a cold drink and a snack and then go out.
We sit outside - earlier in the afternoon I had decided (and told H) that I am going to go to the emergency dentist at 7pm, bcos I have a tooth infection which has flared up again today - I didn't think this would interfere with going out with the boys today. By now it is 5pm - H is working on a project which is urgent - he has been writing, and now needs to figure out how to do mailing labels on the computer - he asks me about it and I tell him I do it all the time at work on Word - that I'm sure I can figure out how to do it on our home computer. He goes upstairs and goes on to the computer - he sends an e-mail, and then, a few minutes later, when I go up, he is working on his address book on the computer. I say that since time is getting on, it doesn't look like we will be able to go out today and suggest that I can take a look at the address label situation while he takes the boys to the park - I now have to make dinner before I go to the dentist. He says he has to do this - fix his address book anyway. "But, " I say "It's now after 5, and you promised the boys that we would go out today. They have expectations and are now very restless." "Wait a minute," he says - at no time, does he stop what he is doing and look at me, he keeps typing in addresses - irritation shows in my voice - "Well, they expected to go out - you said that you would only be gone for a few minutes and that we would go out when you came back, so now..." - he starts to get mad - "No. No. Now this isn't necessary ," he says - I suppose he means the way I am approaching him, or what I am saying, or how I am putting it. "Yes, it is," I say, "because you are not listening to me and it is now too late to go out. I have to make dinner now and then go to the dentist." I leave as I say this - I leave because I don't want to stand near him or over him as he sits in front of the computer, in a confrontational way. "No," he says "This is really not necessary!" But he gets up and comes downstairs. "Come on, boys! Would you like to go to the beach?!" Of course they would. "We have time, don't we? What time will you be back from the dentist? After 7? So none of us have to get wound up about times or anything? OK guys, lets go!" I get all their stuff ready. "Don't worry, they'll sort out your tooth!" he says and kisses me goodbye. He is trying to forgive me for showing irritation towards him. Out they go. OMG - I forgot to put the floaties in!!

What is wrong with this picture? Mom is home making dinner for everyone else for one thing and is not enjoying herself with the rest of the family, but is making sure they all get to eat when they come home.

My H is self-employed, and works from home a lot - today he was working on a project - so he is juggling work and family life - IMO this is a big problem for us - his work is constantly a part of our homelife - this is not something we can avoid - phone calls, work on the computer from home, pupils, all of this is part of his work and I understand that. It IS a problem that he does not follow through on promises he makes to his family, and that he devotes so much of his time to his work and does not make time for his family (especially me) - he manages to squeeze in time with the boys - he never finds time for me. This is a major issue that needs to be looked at in our counselling - if we ever get there - I am trying to identify these problem areas right now, and looking for ways to deal with this issue in a more positive way. Today was not a "major stress" day - but a good example of what happens in our house. I am so afraid of major confrontation that I am in major avoidance mode right now - you can see that he started to get mad at the slightest hint of a suggestion from me that he was somehow delinquent in following through - it could have blown up if he was in a worse mood, but he is calmer now - I am convinced that this is because we had major stress blow up on Mon - he is in "trying to be conciliatory" mood now, until the tension builds again. I do not know what it is that causes tension in him to build up - I am more relaxed right now, because I think I recognize that he is not going to explode since he has just gone through that and has "cleared the air" a bit and feels more relaxed. I am guessing here. Anyone have any ideas. Please - I CAN take constructive criticism - don't be afraid to be honest with me about myself.

LIR

P.S. - Dreamland - how are things? I hope Mrs Dreamland is OK - probably going through withdrawal and being nasty here and there? You sounded better in your last post - whenever you are ready or able, I'm here to listen. I don't know how much help I can be right now - I have not posted much this past month bcos I have been pretty despairing and didn't think my advice worth much.

I am a Christian, and so is my H - I do believe that only God can change a person - it takes a person opening himself up to God's love, God's law, and God's will. We also have a good friend who is a born-again Christian, with a very strong faith, who has been praying a lot for us, and talks to both of us - she is about 65 now and my H has known her since he was 19. I called her on Mon when I was so upset. Although she has been very helpful to me, some of her views upset me - I have to take what she says as representative of the way that she believes. On Mon she told me that I needed a resurrection in the Holy Spirit - she said that she does not exonerate my H for any of his behaviour and that his ordering me out of the room on Mon in front of my sons was totally wrong - but she says that if I had the Holy Spirit in me, I would love with Christs love - that His love would radiate out of me and that my H would have to respond to that. Well, I get what she is saying - I think - do I? But I told her that my marriage is not failing just because my faith is not good enough, or not the right kind. My H's behaviour is his responsibility, not mine - yes, if I do or say something unkind or disrespectful, he has a right to be upset with me. But I felt like she was saying that it was my fault my H responds antagonistically towards me - because I obviously don't love him with Christ's perfect unconditional love - she preaches total and complete acceptance to me - she says that I have to stop pointing the finger at him - she interprets my attempts to set boundaries as pointing the finger at him. She even told me that because I had punched him that one time, he was now afraid of me. I told her I recognized that I was wrong to do that - and had apologized on the night, in writing and in person - I pointed out to her that he has done everything but hit me, over 15 years of marriage, and he had to take responsibility for the impact that had had on me over the whole course of our R. She said I was justifying my behaviour. Our R with this friend is something that I need to take time to deal with in counselling as well, but I wonder what other people's thought are on this.

When you are trapped in a cycle of abuse - I think it is hard for others to see that - no-one ever sees the person I see when my H is nasty and angry - it is hard for others to imagine him being like that. I am a Christian and I pray every day and read the Bible every day with my Bible study scheme, which has helped me very much. I feel like this woman is saying my faith isn't good enough and that's why my marriage is failing. Am I being too sensitive?

LIR

Hey LIR,

I am doing better today. When the time is right, I will let you know how to find out how I are doing. Sometimes I feel I have a dual personality. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If we were like Christ, we would not need this forum, but we must understand that we can not be perfect, all knowing, like God, and hence we need this forum. We need knowledge, wisdom, assistance, love, etc. We were born into sin, and we will die in sin. Nothing will change that. We will all be tempted and we will all sin. Some have more difficulties in some areas then others. Your H for example, has his vices. He is insensitive to people and he is quick to wrath. I am sure you know your vices. His vices does not mean he loves you less, this is who he is. It is NOT right. What he does is sinning, but try to see him through a new light.

Despite his problems, you can change yourself to deal with the situation better than you have. Try to see him as God sees him. We were made in the image and likeness of God, so God feels as we feel. Jesus cried tears of blood before he was crucified because of his great sorry, because he knew the world would turn his back on him. Jesus loved the world, but the world did not love him. Try to examine yourself and see if are angered or sad not by his wrath or emotional abuse, but because of what his wrath and emotional abuse seemingly demonstrates about his love for you. Typically words are NOT damaging by themselves, but as how we take them, whether we take them as an atack on us (our self esteem) or if we are hurt because we are not being loved. Please understand that in no way am I excusing his actions. They are wrong and inexcusable. I am only trying to change your perception of his actions.

I believe (typical baptist faith) that as soon as you put faith in Jesus and what he has done (died on the cross for our sins), you are saved. At that point, the Holy Spirit dwells in yous instead of occassionally touching your heart. People do not go to hell for our sins, they are paid for at calvary. They go to hell for their lack of faith in Jesus. With that said, we can drift away from a walk with Christ by ignoring what the Holy Spirit is telling us and searching for His purpose for our life through prayer, fellowship, and reading of the Bible.

Let me address some of the things your friend told you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but she says that if I had the Holy Spirit in me, I would love with Christs love - that His love would radiate out of me</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are saved, you will have the Holy Spirit in you. If you are walking with God, you may respond to your H differently then you did and do. However, we are not perfect, and what you did is perfectly understandable and we are all sinners.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and that my H would have to respond to that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't believe this. Remember that Jesus was crucified. You could love your husband to your grave and it will not change him. It may even make him more angry.

You are right about the abuse and what people see in your H. They do not live with your H, you do. She should as a friend and as Christ would, be understanding and not judging you for your actions.

Do not concentrate on sining less or trying to be good, concentrate on walking with God, and the rest may follow. However, if it does not follow, do not worry, God has given you specific gifts and he knows your faults. Use your gifts, and forget about your faults.

Hi LIR,

You have a lot going on here, I will try to do the short version but even then......

First, your H. He seems to realize at least partly that he has a problem. I can tell you that when he is in the middle of it, he doesn't know it is happening. He honestly believes he is right, and that you are wrong, and that it is his job to "fix" you. Anyone outside watching would think he was crazy, but he really can't see that.

Even now, with all that I have learned, with all I know, I still have to catch myself sometimes. The big question here is, "How do we get HIM to see what is happening.?"
I would think counseling would help a lot. ( Joint MC) The counselor should be trained to resolve things like this, point out both sides. I would hope H loves you and cares for you enough to go with you. You and he will be improving all your lives, this would just be a good way to take stock and get off to a good start, you can tell him I said that. My wife and I have been in a few times ourselves.

Prayer works. I prayed for God to show me my faults and see a way to fix them. He showed me so many I almost couldn't handle it. I get help weekly on Sunday in church, I get help daily from prayer and reading scripture. I also found MB, got the books, studied the material, and began the changes. I was motivated by God, and found the method here at MB. This brings us to the 2nd part.

The times your H knows he has a problem, he doesn't know what to do about it. He senses something is wrong, he doesn't understand exactly what it is or how to fix it. Counseling will help here also. I read HNHN and LB and did the work myself, but I was the one that found it and I really wanted to have the type of relationship described. I was ready for it. Your H may not be. "Love Busters" was a big help for me. It described what I was doing in a way I could understand it and fix it. It was something I could finally get a hold of and work with. I have a brother in law that took an anger management class and his changes were immediate and have been long lasting. He ended up divorced due to other issues but he handled it very well and is doing pretty good now. I would have gone that route if the reading had not produced results for me.

Third. Your friend is probably right about some of this. There are boundaries and there are boundaries. The bible teaches us to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, and go the extra mile. However it also teaches us that we can defend ourselves and even kill the other person to prevent our own death at their hand. Somewhere in the middle it is pretty gray and hard to find our way.

I think with her age and wisdom she knows that there are always two sides to everything. Perhaps you are perfect. But your friend doubts that. Please don't take offense, I am teasing in a friendly sort of way. I had better relate our story again to illustrate. Outwardly my wife turned the other cheek. Inside, her taker couldn't handle it so she found ways to get back at me. I don't think she knew she was doing it. We have discovered these things the last few months as the walls have come down and we have been able to discuss all this without any anger.

I have a meeting every Wed. night from 7 to about 9:30 PM. I get home from work at about 6:00. I have asked W to have dinner ready at 6 and she agreed that was reasonable. I don't really care if it is late any other night, but on Wed, I do care. I try to spend time with my family, we don't have the Television on during dinner, we discuss the children's day and we try to relate to each other and draw closer together. Often I found dinner served at 6:30, or even 6:50 ( I have to leave by 6:45.) I felt she could do better, she maintained she could not. Too many interruptions, things were beyond her control. I noticed that on the days she had to be somewhere she was always able to be on time. If she got a phone call that required much talking, she would say " I don't have time right now, I'll call you back later." If it was my meeting night, she would take the call, and either I would miss the meal, or I would be late. She has since told me that she was probably trying to get back at me but didn't want to take the blame so she blamed the interruptions instead.

She said I had to just trust her that she couldn't do any better, and that's just the way it was. I should not be frustrated because it was never her fault.

Now, odds are, that sometimes he has a reason to be frustrated with you. He has no right to react the way he does. I am not saying that. However, if even every tenth ( or every 50th, or every hundreth) time, you had really done something wrong he would continue to justify his behivour in his own mind. I believe we are instructed to turn the other cheek because if we are willing (speaking for my W and I) to do it, we can slowly improve with out fighting about everything. I believe you have reasons to set boundaries, and he is unreasonable and needs to change, but again, you are out there in the middle somewhere and it is hard to find just what God wants and expects you to do.

Fourth. You can't change him. You can only work on you. I think that's kind of what your friend was trying to get across. True, you can help him if he is willing to change, you can pray that God will give him a change of heart, you can work to get him to counseling but you can't really change him yourself - except perhaps in one way. My wife loved me so much, forgave so often, and was so kind to me that I had to come. How could anyone not respond to such kind and loving treatment. I responded.

I admit that there are some monsters out there that will never respond. We have seen some reflected in the forum here, but I don't think your H is one of them. If you prayed for God to show you what you personally should work on, I suspect he will.. I hope this comes across right. I am not saying his problems are your fault. I do think in many cases, turn the other cheek works best, that God knew what he was talking about when he said that.

Fifth. There things to do about some of the symptoms. I believe you are having a problem with your Giver/ Taker. Read that part on the site again. I think you need to try and not do anything unless both are satisfied. Sometimes I believe you give too much. We are supposed to turn the other cheek but we don't have to hand the offending person a whip. Be careful that you don't give so much that you become angry yourself.

Many of the problems you have described, we have fixed with better communication and planning. We set aside time to go to the "Beach". I don't know exactly what your H does If his appointments can't be scheduled in advance, advance planning would not work. But we plan those times months in advance and when they come, we do them. We talk now about things before they can get out of hand. My wife has learned how to talk to me without Lb's and I to her. We phrase things differently and don't use trigger words or phrases. Perhaps you already do these things. There are many things she has done to make it easier for me. Dinner seems to be at 6:00 almost always.

Well, you wouldn't even want to see the long version. I hope this short one helped. I hope you understand this the way I was trying to explain it.

SS

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thank you , thank you - Dreamland and SS - this is all very helpful - I want to take the time to respond carefully to you both, but I don't know how much time I have - H has gone out to pick up something at a friend's house and may be back any minute.

ss - I have told my H about MB and I am hoping he will start to look at this site soon - but I have not told him my forum name - I still want my anonymity here - if he starts reading the forum, he might guess who i am, but only if he takes time to read a lot of posts and chances upon mine. I'm sure he can figure it out from what I have said here. Your post is very encouraging to me - my H is in individual counselling now and I think anger management is part of what he is working on - he seems to have a counsellor he trusts and is very positive about continuing, so this is a very good sign. I just feel we won't be able to see the dynamics of our R in action until we come before a counsellor and it starts to happen in front of a 3rd party. I know that I am sitting on a lot of anger and resentment - like Dreamland said - his treatment of me is bad enough - not right - but its what it says about how he feels about me that hurts the most - it tells me that he doesn't love me - I feel that a person who loved me would not treat me like this. I also feel trapped - I would not take being treated like this by anyone else, but I cannot walk out on my marriage because - A - I married for life and AM willing to go the extra mile and B - I have two sons and they need 2 parents - the situation is not hopeless and until I feel that way (hopefully never) I will not give up on things and cause such pain and upheaval for my children. Feeling trapped brings feelings of fear and anger.

I want to say a lot more but don't think I have time - I may not find the time until next Tuesday, but will try to snatch moments when they arise.

Yes, I think MB would give my H the practical ideas he may be lacking - I sense that he is like you, SS - needing a concrete plan of action that he can work with to effect change. Do you think I should print off and article for him to read and if so, which one do you think would be best at this point?

Dreamland - I believe as you do, and I sure do accept that I am a sinner, too. I am far from perfect and in the past, have been capable of having a very sharp tongue. I have made a lot of changes but my H doesn't seem to have noticed - could it be the fog syndrome or that he only says that when he is mad? Our friends comments upset me, because we share the same faith, but I often feel that she feels that I am not "born-again" and therefore, still do not "walk in the Spirit". This I do not believe. I do not know where I would be now did I not pray for and ask for the Holy Spirit to walk with me every day. But I am human and I believe Christ forgives me for not being perfect. She keeps telling me that I have to recognize my marriage is dead and pray for a resurrection - I have done this every day for the last year and have talked to her at length about this - I just feel she cannot accept that her friend (my H) can be as cruel as I say he is - she somewhere in her heart sees this as my failure - that I have provoked and angered him - in other words, she is justifying him. Last year, I sat down alone and asked Him to be with me - I said to Him - I am afraid of the consequences of what my H is doing and I felt Him say - there will be consequences but they are not for you to decide - our priest counselled me to examine all my actions with regard to my H and let all my actions be motivated by charity, not by anger or fear. I have tried to do that - in Feb I failed miserably at that. I believe that Christ is after my H like the Good Shepherd after that one lost sheep. the Gospel says that "not one of those whom I have chosen will be lost." I believe this. What I am saying is that my H is responsible for his faith, not me. I am responsible for my own faith or lack of it. My H has free will - if he chooses to act against his faith in his treatment of me, its not because I am not walking in the Holy Spirit. I am thinking I should not talk so much to our friend any more - I have not talked to her much these last few months - just Monday when things were so bad.

Need to go now - if I had a couple of hours undisturbed I could be more articulate - just know I appreciate all your support, both of you - ss - I am taking all your points on board as best I can - need to examine myself carefully I think and work on things more thoughtfully and methodically.

Thank you guys - take care.
LIR

Hello LIR,
I think you might feel better if you do some more things for yourself. It feels as though your husband REALLY likes to nit pick about silly things. Like the dirty towel thing. My goodness, pardon my slang but he was acting a bit like a weenie. I think you do an amzing job of not LB'ing in his face constantly. It sounds as though you always try to reply respectfully.
I guess I am just trying to say worry a bit on building yourself up. You tend to be a bit of a nurturer. I am the same way. You know, blaming myself for starving orphans and global warming.
You need to stop the cycle of feeling like everything is your fault. I think your WH feels lousy about what he has done and undeserving of you so he is baiting you and trying to anger you into leaving.
Don't take the bait. Do plan A. Concentrate on yourself while you are trying to avoid "rocking the boat" with him so to speak.
Take care of YOU. You sound like a great wonderful forgiving person who's biggest crime might be loving someone that is undeserving of you. Even though he tries to make it seem the other way around sometimes.
Keep your chin up and keep posting.
You will always find a sympathetic ear in this house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Huge Hug to LIR!
Layli

I wouldn't even mention the fourm to him yet.
He would be much better off to start on the simple concepts. Those can be printed out.

I was tring to think of a single best thing to read, the problem is, it is all connected. I printed out everything and took it home and read it all. I asked W if she would read it, at first no. I actually think if you have HNHN that having him read about the love bank first may be best. ( if you don't have the book, just print what's here on the site) If understood, it can create interest to learn how meet needs, and avoid LB's. I think I started my W on this when she finally consented to read. I'll think on it some more.

I don't know how on board he is at this point - will it mean something to him if he reads it? Does he care that much?

I know you need love and support also, not just ideas. I hope you feel that we care. Sometimes I wish we ( 3 or 4 couples) could sit down for an evening and share stories. It would help so much. We will just have to do it the best we can this way.

I hope you didn't take my post to mean that things were your fault. I agree with you that your H has his free will, and can do what he wants to do. I did not go far enough with that part of it. You may recall that Jonah did not want to go to Nivina to preach, he took a boat going in the other direction. God let him go but he has ways of coaxing us to change our free will. Jonah changed his mind about what he wanted to do and went to Niniva after all. Three days in the belly of the whale completly changed his point of view.( this is kind of tounge in cheek but it has a point.)

If you work on you, two things may happen. One, he will respond positivly to changes in you. Two, God can, and I believe will find a way to coax your H to change his mind.

I know the abuse is real, you are not making it up. I know your friend does not understand the scope of it, has no idea really. I do think she understands and is trying to communicate to you a good way to work through it. Miracles can still be brought about by faith. Our faith depends in large part how we live our lives. That's why I said work on you, not because I think you are doing any big things wrong, but so you can develop the faith necessarry for God to do the rest, after you do all that you can.

Aaahhhh, it is so hard to type all this stuff out. Ask all you want, will try to help.

SS

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I should probably comment on some things directly

I just feel we won't be able to see the dynamics of our R in action until we come before a counsellor and it starts to happen in front of a 3rd party. This will help a lot. As we discussed things I could often see what I was going to say was stupid. I had to admit it was just plain wrong. At that point though, I really wanted to change, so I put it all on the table. If he doesn't want to change, he will just quit going.

I know that I am sitting on a lot of anger and resentment - like Dreamland said - his treatment of me is bad enough - not right - but its what it says about how he feels about me that hurts the most - it tells me that he doesn't love me - I feel that a person who loved me would not treat me like this.
I feel I loved my wife all these years. I really thought I was doing well to teach her faults, that it was my job. I WAS DEAD WRONG, but I really thought that. I believe he probably does love you. Some cultures have rituals that disfigure body parts, I am sure they love each other. They have been trained and taught false ideas, they think what they do is right. I am sorry , all my past sins come back when I think about it, I hurt for you. I hurt all over again for my W.

I also feel trapped ..... Feeling trapped brings feelings of fear and anger.
I wish I could grab your H, shake him up good and tell him what was going on. I used to do things like the he did with the towel. I still to this day can't explain it. I sometimes still catch myself starting it up, stop in mid sentance and apoligize. The fear has gone out of my W's eyes now, she is glad to see me come home. She rushes to meet me, we embrace, life is happy again for her. I hope you see it soon.

SS

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss - quick, quick - only a few minutes - checked in - appreciate your support - no, I didn't take it the wrong way at all - I know that his abusive behaviour is not my fault, or his choices to turn away from me and to seek ego gratification with OW - but I HAVE contributed to our marriage problems and I am trying to learn about myself and what I can do to change me - so this is all so helpful and encouraging to me. One of the things I can think of that I do is that I don't make eye contact with him very much - now, this is partly a defense mechanism - eye contact can be taken as a confrontation by him when he is grouchy or mad - but it is also one of the ways that I withhold myself from him when I am mad or resentful. I can be very polite, but I find it hard to look at him - I'm sure this makes me appear very aloof and unwelcoming sometimes. A lot of the time I am scared - and I don't feel safe with him emotionally - so avoiding eye contact is a way of saying "I'm not with you 100% - I don't trust you" . I don't know how to really deal with this - I think its also a way of refusing eye contact which would bring us closer - every time I get close again, I inevitably get hurt, so the shades come down - it takes a long time for me to raise the shade and come out again to play. But it must make me appear cold, which is not me at all.

Will be back, but may not be able to check in for a couple of days - my BIL is taking the boys for the w/end and H and I will be spending some time alone. (Bites nails) !

I know why your wife loves you - you are honest, and a big enough person to recognize your mistakes and try to correct them for love of her - this takes someone with a generous spirit - she respects you again and so do I. Thank you for trying to help me - I find the typing laborious, too!

LIR

Hi there-

Its Sunday and I'm home alone - my H's brother has taken the kids for the w/end, so we have some space - my H's job requires that he work all day Sunday - yesterday, though, we spent the whole day together and had a nice time - it was the first time since the kids were born (almost 10 years) that we have had a whole day where we could just wander and stretch time to do what we wanted without having to hurry home for the babysitter. We went to an art museum, and then tried to go to another, but it was closed, I suggested a sushi place that I went to with a friend a few years ago, so H was willing and we went there, then he decided he wanted more to eat, so he took me to a Chinese restaurant where he used to go when he worked in the city - afterwards we went home on the train - on the train on the way home, he got out his mobile and called his B, to ask how the day went with the boys - he handed me the phone so I could talk to his B. After we hung up, I figured this was as good a time as any, and decided to see how far I could get - (when H started up with OW2, he put a pincode lock on his mobile which he never had before - and he has kept it locked ever since and not volunteered the code to me - this is very hurtful to me, and one of the major things I need him to change in order to begin to trust him again).

I didn't want to spoil the good time we had had, but I also thought if he had had a good time with me, there was a chance he might be more receptive to coming forward. So I took a deep breath, and using the terminology he uses when he wants to make a "helpful suggestion" to me - I said - "You know the cellphone (I said THE, not YOUR)? I notice you have a pincode now. Don't you think it would be a good idea if I knew the pincode also, so that I could use it in case of emergencies?"

(The original justification for buying the mobile was so that we could both use it went we went out alone - when he bought it, he was keen to explain how useful it could be for me, too - in fact, last year, I had to take OS to hospital after another kid punched him in the head and he had a slight concussion - at the time, H was still in with OW1, who communicated alot by TXT - the mobile was a hot issue then, but H shoved it at me as I shot out the door to hospital, saying "take it, take it!" The point being that this mobile should be able to be used for just such emergencies - he should not have to worry that I will find msgs on it that I shouldn't see - at that time, I did not know OW1 was out of country so there was no danger of any msgs being on there - anyway, to cut a long story short - after OW2, he locked his mobile and has not re-opened access to me.)

Well, H replied, slightly nervously, I think, "I put a pincode on it just in case it ever gets lost," (I didn't point out that he uses a pay-as-you-go card scheme so its not like he is ever going to lose more than £10 worth of call-time if he loses it.) "And yes," he said, "There's no reason why you shouldn't have the pincode."
"OK, so what is it?" I asked, but at that point the train noise made it impossible to hear, and he was trying to connect to his B again, so he acted like he didn't hear me, or maybe he didn't hear me. I could have pressed him for the code, but I didn't want it to get confrontational, so I dropped it at that point. I am going to ask my counselor how I can best reopen the question, because he has actually now AGREED that I should have the pincode, which is a step in the right direction.

The kids won't be back until 9 tonight so I have the whole day to myself - I have a lot I am looking forward to doing - working on a children's story I am trying to shape up to send to a publisher, writing a couple of letters, and doing some gardening.

I am trying to get a grip on using the quotes in these posts because I want to answer and ask some specific points so here goes -

Still seeking - you said -I can tell you my wife says many times she prayed and asked " I am tired of this, can I just leave now." - when did she first tell you this and what was your reaction? - it must have hurt you so much to hear this, but how did you take this - were you defensive, or were you remorseful, did you see the truth behind what she said and feel for her, or did you initially feel angry and only later realize how hurt she was? If I said this to my H, (which I wouldn't right now) I think he would just get angry and retort "Well I feel the same way!" When did you get to the place where you could hear this statment and not react with anger?

Am going to go to the other posts and try to take them point by point now.

LIR

Dear Lady in Red: I came to your post to thank you for your response in mine. It was helpful and made me laugh and feel kind of stupid at the same time.lol I am surprised you remember so much about my life. You are right. I guess I am stuck with wanting to win and wanting to be happy and I don't know if I win if I will still be happy. Funny huh? I mean what exactly am I winning anyway? It seems more important at times to win my self-respect and some peach at the moment than to try to win my husband. At times I want to let them both have each other because I always was the prize in this relationship not him. And everyone knows that. Even him. He is not willing to completely sever this thing although he is not emailing or calling. But I need more. I need it all and I just can't make myself settle for anything less. That's just where I am right now. Thank you again. I have been reading your thread. I will respond soon. wu