I sent her an email with all the information and numbers for the appointment with Steve on Tuesday.

I'm taking her non-response (until now) as a positive sign; it would appear she at least did not reject it out of hand and is thinking of attending.

We shall see...

"jaded ... suspicious ... cynical"

One of the ways I had to grow during recovery was to examine the very same emotions you have mentioned here. I did not like myself very much when I was feeling jaded, suspicious and cynical. I had to bury someone to rid myself of these toxic feelings ... who did I bury? ... I buried my inner Pollyanna. She was the voice inside me that whispered unrealistic and idealistic expectations into my ear ... and the disappointment from those deeply held erroneous beliefs was crushing. I grew up with the fantasy that if I was cheerful enough, and sweet enough, and helpful enough to people ... that people would automatically treat me with kindness and reciprocal respect.

Old beliefs die hard. Pollyanna had been my "M.O." for so long ... I barely knew how to function in the world after I killed her off !

I'm trying on a "ZEN" philosophy recently. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's good to be challenged ... and to make changes within ourselves. (But, it doesn't feel good until later)

Pepper (NOT Polly) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"jaded ... suspicious ... cynical"

... I grew up with the fantasy that if I was cheerful enough, and sweet enough, and helpful enough to people ... that people would automatically treat me with kindness and reciprocal respect.

Pepper (NOT Polly) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, boy! This statement sounds EXACTLY like me. You mean it isn't true? Don't burst my bubble, Pep! I have faith in mankind, and in the fundamental goodness of all individuals...PLEASE don't tell me that when I'm done with THIS mess, I have to tackle that one! It's almost too much to bear.

I also believed that everyone believes this, and would recognize my actions for the love and care with which they were taken...sadly, this I now know not to be true.

Isn't there a place in the world for people with these feelings and beliefs?

My W just confirmed she'll attend the session with Steve on Tues. and agreed to one session every 2 weeks...very positive development.

I hope she'll be of the same opinion after I deliver the Plan B letter on Wed. and "go dark"...

Pepper;

2 things; what's K-Y? ("Mental K-Y ...") and

"Are you ready to hear about more SCUD-MISSILE tactics?" yes...

And the ladies who were going to try the tenderloin...TinyDancer and MelodyLane...how'd it go?

"K-Y" is the brand name of a "personal lubricant" ... I use it when I perform a pap smear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ....( Bad taste, sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Another SCUD would be a small change in your appearance.... something like a different haircut. More spiked? Or combed very smooth straight back? Or perhaps even a temporary color gel .... one of those spike gels like "ICE" comes in various colors, and washes right out.

Buy a different type of music CD ... something you like but is really different from your usual.

If you wear glasses, buy a new updated frame ... ask your kids for their opinion on selecting something you want to change.

Buy yourself a small elegant piece of jewelry ... a very thin gold chain .... and make no mention of it.

Shoes ... if you are usually dressy , go casual. If you are usually in sneakers, go sandals.

If you seldom wear jeans, buy cargo pants.

I don't know you well enough to make more interesting suggestions.

Volunteer to take your kid(s) somewhere your wife normally would go with them.

Stuff like that. Start small and subtle ... work up to bigger and more peculiar experiments.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 12, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hey Space - was thinking about you and thought I would see how you are holding up. I do have to say there is a place for people who see the good...

Isn't there a place in the world for people with these feelings and beliefs?

This made me chuckle...my boss (who has been very good to me through everything) said I am a "house dweller". In the little imaginary house I live in the fantasy that Pep references is alive and well.

... I grew up with the fantasy that if I was cheerful enough, and sweet enough, and helpful enough to people ... that people would automatically treat me with kindness and reciprocal respect.

He often asks me what the color of the sky in the little world I live in is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I hope I can find balance someday. I refuse to give up seeing the good and I don't think we have to. Pepper seems to have it pretty well put together <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY Jelly...you know, it's that flavorless crap those poor people in Kentucky have to put up with. I prefer grape myself.

Whaaa haa haaa haaaa <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WHAT all these positive things and you are still thinking about Plan B!!! Are you so focused on Plan B that you can't see the recent developments. Maybe I am just stupid, but what is the purpose of Plan B anyways? Research why Plan B is needed and see if it is still needed.

Can you handle things the way they are now (love bank). It seems to me you can. You are getting generous amounts of $LB deposits from her because of the attention she is giving you, if so, stay in Plan A at your apartment until what you are doing no longer works. Plan B is all about timing, you are getting very positive responses from her. I think you may need to talk to Dr. Harley again about this.

If you go to Plan B now, what do you think she is going to think. She has been very responsive and you are punishing her.

Maybe I am off base here. Just my thoughts. What do you think?

DL;
Plan B's objective is to remove myself from the pain of an on-going affair.
While that A continues, no matter what nicey-nice crumbs my W is throwing my way in light of my departure, I cannot continue to allow her the benefit of having both of us.
She wasn't mistreating me while I was home in Plan A, she wasn't witholding SF, she wasn't ignoring me...but her A was on-going.

Space,

O.K. I see your point. Just can't help but to think that she is very interested in chasing you now, so why cut off the chase. Maybe she is interested more in you than OM now. Maybe she needed the chase to drop the OM. I think it would be a shame to miss the fun in this and the chances it may bring and go prematurely to Plan B. I bet she is very receptive in having her EN's met. This may be the oportuntiy you have been waiting for. Maybe in her heart she has dropped OM temporarily to wait to see what you have to offer her.

Let me address some of your comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B's objective is to remove myself from the pain of an on-going affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have done this by moving out. Right? Besides, does she not make you feel good now because of the chase? Is she not depositing $LB's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> While that A continues, no matter what nicey-nice crumbs my W is throwing my way in light of my departure, I cannot continue to allow her the benefit of having both of us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true, yes. But, you can not ignore the change in your wifes direction. I do not think there is any harm giving this Plan A with distance thing a few weeks. After all, you have already put a great deal of time and effort. I just hate to see you throw the positive things your WW is doing out the window right now. It may be that this is the break you needed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wasn't mistreating me while I was home in Plan A, she wasn't witholding SF, she wasn't ignoring me...but her A was on-going.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may not have been mistreating you, but she was not eager to fill your EN's. So you must agree that things are different now. So when things change, a reasonable rational person steps back and re-examines the new set of variables and decides what the new plan is to be. I am not saying not to go to Plan B, I am saying give your WW just a little more time and re-examine your situation.

What is it you want from her and are willing to accept from her as positive signs to move back in. Remember I asked you this before. What if she said she was going to do NC? Would that be enough? What if she said she was going to do MC? What if she said she was going to try to work on the M? Do you think this would be enough to move back in. What then is your reason for going to Plan B?

Just trying to provoke some thought here. I hate to see a Plan B pop up when there is so many positive things going on. It may be that you can not possibly take it anymore, and I would understand that.

<small>[ August 12, 2002, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Space,

O.K. I see your point. Just can't help but to think that she is very interested in chasing you now, so why cut off the chase. Maybe she is interested more in you than OM now. Maybe she needed the chase to drop the OM. I think it would be a shame to miss the fun in this and the chances it may bring and go prematurely to Plan B. I bet she is very receptive in having her EN's met. This may be the oportuntiy you have been waiting for. Maybe in her heart she has dropped OM temporarily to wait to see what you have to offer her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of that may be; possibly. But it's the classic WS reaction to an unexpected situation. If she has dropped the OM, she needs to tell me; she knows I've been waiting for that.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Let me address some of your comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B's objective is to remove myself from the pain of an on-going affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have done this by moving out. Right? Besides, does she not make you feel good now because of the chase? Is she not depositing $LB's.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not about "feeling good", it's about creating an environment where trust can be rebuilt and the marriage can begin to recover. Yes, she's made a couple of $LB deposits, so what? I'm supposed to run back to her and say I'm sorry I left you? I don't think so.

IF she's serious, and her actions now are real, once she gets the Plan B letter, she'll know EXACTLY what she needs to do to get me back, and she will do it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> While that A continues, no matter what nicey-nice crumbs my W is throwing my way in light of my departure, I cannot continue to allow her the benefit of having both of us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true, yes. But, you can not ignore the change in your wifes direction. I do not think there is any harm giving this Plan A with distance thing a few weeks. After all, you have already put a great deal of time and effort. I just hate to see you throw the positive things your WW is doing out the window right now. It may be that this is the break you needed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would going to Plan B be throwing the positive things my W is doing out the window?
This is no break! She's initiated a couple of kisses and hugs, she's sent a couple of e-cards, she's sent an email saying thank you, she's agreed to continue Cing w/Steve...what's the big deal? This is not the behavior I need to go back to her...I need concrete, verifiable actions. Ending the R with OM, demonstrating it's ended, committing to NC and measures to assure it, committment to honesty, and to working on our M...not e-cards!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wasn't mistreating me while I was home in Plan A, she wasn't witholding SF, she wasn't ignoring me...but her A was on-going.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may not have been mistreating you, but she was not eager to fill your EN's. So you must agree that things are different now. So when things change, a reasonable rational person steps back and re-examines the new set of variables and decides what the new plan is to be. I am not saying not to go to Plan B, I am saying give your WW just a little more time and re-examine your situation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Things aren't different now...how does sending a couple of e-cards translate into her desire to fulfill my EN's? Things aren't different...she's just throwing a thin line out there in reaction to my leaving her to see if I'll bite and be willing to come back...to allow her to somehow negotiate her on-going fence-sitting. Sorry. I'm not THAT naive!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What is it you want from her and are willing to accept from her as positive signs to move back in. Remember I asked you this before. What if she said she was going to do NC? Would that be enough? What if she said she was going to do MC? What if she said she was going to try to work on the M? Do you think this would be enough to move back in. What then is your reason for going to Plan B?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None of those single actions would be enough. Perhaps 3 out of 4, ok. Nothing less.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Just trying to provoke some thought here. I hate to see a Plan B pop up when there is so many positive things going on. It may be that you can not possibly take it anymore, and I would understand that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I fully understand your thinking DL, I just don't see how you can interpret these minor signals my W has sent as a change big enough to reconsider my plan...I don't see it.

Uhhh, I agree Space.

DL, Space's WW is nowhere near any kind of breakthrough. She's using subtle manipulation to try to get things back on her terms. The idea of Plan B is to make it clear that her terms are not agreeable to all parties involved.

Plan B is not punishment nor is it done unlovingly. It's just a dose of the cold hard reality that the BS lives daily during Plan A.

I have some of the same questions that dreamland has. Part of it is probably because SH slightly modified your move to Plan B in a way that suited your unique situation (no matter how similar all our situations are, we are each unique and so are our situations).

I see this time right now as a transition time. I don't know how to interpret your WW's actions, and I don't know how much you are needing No Contact with your WW as soon as possible (you are the only one who can really know that).

I guess I'm just really pulling for you two--so if I was the one in your shoes I guess I would want to verify with SH that the original time we had agreed on to deliver the Plan B letter and go dark was still the best time. Especially if she keeps her appt with SH on Tuesday, both you and SH will have current info to work with.

Space,

I do not know your WW. She may be doing this to manipulate you into coming back home. Is this part of her "normal" behavior?

Like I said Space, I like to provoke thought. I know Plan B is not a Plan D, but it sure seems close sometimes. Maybe all of my talk here is just part of my insecurities coming out about Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, she's made a couple of $LB deposits, so what? I'm supposed to run back to her and say I'm sorry I left you? I don't think so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said, I am only suggesting that you give her a bit of time in the new environment. I was not suggesting that you take her back until all of the checklist (Plan B letter) items marked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IF she's serious, and her actions now are real, once she gets the Plan B letter, she'll know EXACTLY what she needs to do to get me back, and she will do it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does your Plan B letter say anything more then you have already told her about what you require of her. That is, you already told her NC is required and you want her to work on the marriage. So I guess she already knows what she needs to do. The new information in the Plan B letter is that you are going to not contact her. Right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not about "feeling good", it's about creating an environment where trust can be rebuilt and the marriage can begin to recover </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Per MB, I think two main reasons for Plan B are:
1) BS's love bank low. (yes feelings play a huge role in all of this. It is "feeling good" that we strive for."
2) Plan A has no affect on the WS or ending the A.

So my point being, if love bank is not low and WS is having affect by new action, give it some time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Things aren't different now...how does sending a couple of e-cards translate into her desire to fulfill my EN's? Things aren't different...she's just throwing a thin line out there in reaction to my leaving her to see if I'll bite and be willing to come back...to allow her to somehow negotiate her on-going fence-sitting. Sorry. I'm not THAT naive!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is only one way of looking at your situation. Do you think you can be entirely unbiased about your situation? I am merely providing a different perspective. I am not suggesting you go back unless all of your requirements have been fullfilled.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would going to Plan B be throwing the positive things my W is doing out the window?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have been at this site long enough to predict the future and WW's immediate reaction of your Plan B letter. You can tell me what your WW's response is going to be. SAA and MB also predicts what the immediate response of the Plan B letter is going to be. Ask any WW out there what there response to a Plan B letter would be.

To summarize, Space, I really care about what is going on with you. I just would like you to weigh the current things your WW is doing without bias. You could be right. All of this your WW is doing could be one big scam to get you to come back home. If so, how are you ever going to know if she is going to be honest with you. She could sign a NC agreement and continue to hide her A for all you know. I am just suggesting you give this some thought in light of the current situation. Of course, with all of the crappy things she has done to you over the past year, she does not deserve this and she does not deserve as nice a person as you. I am just suggesting you see how the sessions with Dr. Harley go. What harm will a little more time do?

Sorry if I offended or hurt you. You know best your situation and I am not one to be giving advice given my own current dilemas.

Just my very humble opinion.

Spacecase,

You are dead on in your rationale. My WW sounds like a carbon copy of yours in terms of attempted manipulation when she's feeling insecure. She quickly tries to work her magic to get me out of the "drivers seat" and we go back to her lies, C with OM etc. You sound like you have her figured out pretty well. Good luck.

DL;
You have not offended or bothered me in any way!
Seriously, I may sound harsh about what I think, but it's because I've learned NOT to take her crumbs and think they mean something significant.

I appreciate your perspective and it's always healthy to question and ponder other opinions.

Remember how she was doing a bunch of really nice things (including SF) right before her last trip to see the OM? I saw them with eagerness, others here saw them for what they were and warned me...

I rest my case.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Too bad. My WW has been real nice to me too. Makes me wonder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think I am going to get my hair highlighted. I want her to wonder if I found a girlfriend.

Nice shirt by the way. I could smell the cologne from here. Go easy on that stuff. Could call girls from miles away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

I guess to put it simply, I have survived 11 MONTHS of living w/my W, while her A has continued unabated, and she has shown very little desire to make any kind of concession to me or the M. She has lied, manipulated, and coerced throughout, showing enormous allegiance to the OM, and none to me or the M. She has paid lip service to "working on our marriage", attended Cing with 4 counselors, all of whom she has lied to re the A, and staying home one more day under those conditions was unbearable to me. I was living with someone who was one thing when home with me, but whom I knew to be another thing as soon as she stepped out the door. Not an easy thing to do, never any regret, remorse, just doing whatever she needed to do to continue her R, irrespective of the consequences to me, our kids, the family, or anyone else.

She does not merit any concessions based on a couple of kisses and e-cards. I need this agony to end; whichever way it goes. I cannot continue to live in limbo and being lied to while everything I do and give is gladly received and desired, but in no way recognized.

Too much. It's time to fish or cut bait.

Space,

I'm back from vacation and trying to catch-up on your situation. Do you have an appt with SH coming up; you've done such a marvelous job with MB principles. Is Plan B in the works?

CSue