Well I thought it was all over. Now I have quite a bit of evidence that the A is still continuing. D-Day #1 was in March with a boss figure. WW claimed A was over and it appeared that all contact stopped. Until the other day when OMW contacted her to apologize.

WW went out a few nights (supposedly for work function). She was not very descriptive about the event, so I began to wonder. Asked her specific questions that she fumbled on. So I checked her cell phone. Sure enough OM called the night the event was to happen (real late-just after event). It was a received call so I know she talked to him. More than likely they had a blast together. WW has been very distant. Now I know why.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Hi there,
Just like you, my Dday was in march, just like you WW continued contact behind my back (albeit no physical as he is on other continent), just like you I decided now that enough is enough.
Before going to plan B however, I'm giving my wife one last straw by giving her a choice between living with me (and no contact) or contacting him at will (but without living with me). I've drafted letters to this effect - see my post on http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019358

that seems to have rattled her a bit, but the overall outcome still remains to be seen. but I am at a stage where ANY change is preferable to the status quo - and I sense from your post that you're also at that point.

Giving her one last straw also gives some time to go through the plan B logistics.

Good luck

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Dear chameleon,

this is very sad news, but in some ways, not unexpected. I'm really, really, REALLY sorry for you. Before you leap forward into plan B, I really think you need to see a lawyer and get some detailed legal advice about custody - there are some v serious issues here which are deeply relevant to your children's welfare. Please do not just walk out and leave them without taking consultation beforehand - it will look on the surface as if you are the one abandoning the family home - you don't want to have to claw back ground with a lawyer afterwards. Please go get some legal advice first.

Any chance of your WS going to counselling?

Will be praying for you.

(((chameleon)))

LIR

This is indeed sad news but your plan makes a lot of sense. I would certainly contact the OM's
wife and tell her what you found out. Good Luck.

Not unexpected at all, unfortunatly. It was a fight...nothing more.

Plan B is a good plan...but to tell you the truth, I'm not sure you're ready for it. I really really wish you'd call the Harleys or get a counselor. Having a coach might make the transition smoother and easier for you, which would make you appear more confident and strong.

Have you written your letter yet?

Update: (LONG--SORRY)

Long talk with WW (1 hour or so). I found out OM is out of town for week (will need to verify, but I vaguely remember seeing an email on her computer about it). I do think now that she saw him. I asked her why OM called, and she said she did not know why, the phone died before they were able to talk much.

I got out of her that they are still talking. Mostly about work, around twice a week. They have not "gone out" together since she said "the A is over." I told her if they are still talking and she still has some feelings for them, then the EA is still continuing. She agreed that this was correct.

I told her that I would not stay around if the continued contact. She said she did not have the same feelings she did for him earlier, and she has been somewhat careful in trying to avoid contact.

I asked her what she wanted. She said what she wanted is what she could not have. She said she wanted the OM, but she knew it was not possible.

She said she has little to no feelings about me, and may be willing to give us a try (she said this reluctantly probably only because I talked quite a bit about just giving us a shot). She did not think we would work, but she just wants to "exist" for now and does not know what she wants to do. I told her I would be willing to let her exist for a short time frame only, one to two months, provided she does not continue personal contact (work related only) with OM and provided that they did not "see" each other. She agreed somewhat agreed. I said that we would touch base again in a month or two and determine what to do next.

She brought up the fact that she could not do total NC with OM because of how much OM is a part of the company. She said that she felt that she had to work. I told her that this was not true. I told her that we could work it out so that she could quit her job, and I would do anything to make that possible including getting a cheaper car. She said that she wanted to continue working like she is, and she likes work now. I told her I appreciated her working, but said she did not have to and to let me know if she did not want to work anymore.

I asked her if she believed that the feelings for OM would last. She said she knew they would not. I asked her if she went down that road, what would she have because OM would not marry her. She said she would be dating. I asked her if this is what she wanted for the kids. She said she has accepted the fact that the consequences for her actions is divorce and is prepared for it and does not care what happens. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I told her how could you not care what happens. It affects your family and your boys. She said she just did not care.

I reminded her of the conversation she had with the babysitter the other day about making wise choices in her life at her age (18). I told her that she too had a chance to make wise choices now that may affect the rest of her life.

I told her that my love bank for her was low too. She said how could it be after you wrote me that email the other day. I told her that what I said in the email about why I loved her was true. I told her that my love bank was low for obvious reasons. I told her feelings of love go up and down throughout a marriage. What holds the marriage together is the deep (comitment/agape) love. I told her our feelings for each other could come back, but we had to give it a chance. We would have to commit to working on us, go to marriage counseling, and do the things the counselor says to work on us. I told her that when I am around her I start to feel some of the feelings of love for her again. She said she did not feel this. I told her that this was natural because she still had feelings for OM. She once again reiterated that her feelings for OM where not strong they were weak now.

I asked her if she still wanted to go out tonight (we have a dinner date by ourselves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), she said "do you still want to go" and I said yes and so she said she would go.

So here is what I think about all of this:
1) She is not ready to work on us so I will not push the MC.
2) I will give this "existing" time two months with a one month check up. At the two month time period if "existing" is all she wants then it is time for Plan B (legal separation - custody, money, assets, the works).
3) I will need over the course of the next two months work on my Plan B plan and prepare myself for what will happen in two months provided she does not commit to our relationship.

So what do all of you think about this?

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Cham, your wife is depressed. She needs meds. Of COURSE she doesn't have feelings for you...because she still has them for the OM!! That's a pretty simple concept really.

As long as she has contact...ANY contact...she will continue to just exist. She won't get over withdrawl and she won't pull out of the depression.

She's on a long road to self destruction with her current path.

GET COUNSELING!!!!

Hey Hope,

I appreciate your comments and your insite. You have been so helpfull.

I guess she WW depressed. I can't tell. She seems happy most of the time, does not talk about these things. She copes very well considering her childhood. If you like, you can read post on LIR's thread about her past. She has been having female problems and is on the pill to correct them. I am not sure how the hormones play a part in this.

I agree that the concept is simple, can't serve two masters (so to speak) and that deals with love as well.

You are right about the counceling. I hope I can convince her and I hope I can convince myself. I have asked quite a bit of people, and I can't get a reference. I guess it will have to be best educated guess. If she does not want to work on us, will MC work?

Cham..So sorry for your pain...

She is NOT ready to work on the marriage and the job(continued contact) is WHY...Can't she quit and get a different job? She may say she doesn't want to but does she WANT to get divorced..b/c that is where she is headed? It IS a matter of what SHE WANTS the MOST!!.

It's time for her to put up or shut up. Let her exist..take care of YOURSELF...and prepare for the worst.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Nick123,

She said she can't practice NC because of work issues. This is so tough. I do not want to ask her to quit. Her work means alot to her, and she wants to pay off all our debt. She would only have to work to January so we can be debt free (except for house and one car). I expressed to her that she can quit whenever she wants. She can do alot to limit contact with OM.

I read your letter. I guess I said this on the phone to her. I did post to your thread. I bet you can guess who I am from my signature line.

LIR,

Thanks.

If we have to go to Plan B, it would be a legal separation. I researched the laws in our state (read the legal code). I printed out legal separation docs and gave to wife (one month or so after D-day).

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Wounded2673,

Thanks.

She has a sweet setup with current job. She can work from home 1/2 days and be with kids (we have babysitter to watch 1/2 days). She gets paid 3/4 of her large original salary. It will be impossible to find another job like this. She can stay in her career until the boys go to school when she can resume her career. Her primary concern is being home with the boys. She does not want them in day care, and neither do I.

You are right about wants. I had never thought about it in that way before. It is all about what she wants the most. Obviously she wants to stay in the marriage (easiest). She wants to keep her job until debt is paid off. She wants to stay at home with boys. She wants OM (but can't have him). She wants me for convenience and security. Cake and eat it too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chameleon:
<strong>Nick123,

She said she can't practice NC because of work issues. This is so tough. I do not want to ask her to quit. Her work means alot to her, and she wants to pay off all our debt</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chameleon - No Contact is No Contact is No Contact... got it? as long as they invent reasons to meet, to stay in contact, your WW wont change but the agony continues forever and ever. It's that simple, really.

My wife brought up a similar issue promising at one point "I'll only contact him if he is psychologically unstable & needs help" - to which I said OK, I mean, I dont want to feel guilty if the guy kills himself. Big mistake. it simply was a 'carte blanche' for them to carry on. So, negotiating for a COMPLETE non contact is the name of the game. Look, there are 1,000 valid reasons why she NEEDS to stay in contact with him somehow - all are just what they are: pre-texts of an undecided mind.

In your situation, I recommend now for you to gently ask her to resign from job, over and over again. relationship simply cant heal without that. she wont comply at once with that of course, reason more for you to constantly bring the theme up (in a non-LBing way)

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Nick123,

You are probably right about the contact issue. I have resigned to the fact that she could limit contact for business only. She does not have to support his projects and is forcing him to use other people. I believe that the A is dying anyway, and I am sure I can not get her to comit to NC because I have already tried. I can not get her to quit, because I have already tried. I am resigned to accept the current situation for two more months. I am hopefull that the A will continue eventually die regardless of my interaction.

I am looking foward to our date tonight despite all of this. We will be eatin' cajun!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your input. I know if she has any contact (even business) it will be difficult for her to break her ties with him, but she has no strong motivation to break the ties right now.

Of course she doesn't have ANY motivations to cut ties with OM - why should she? it's sooo comfy to have both, isnt it. That shouldnt stop you from constantnly and persistantly making the point that she has to change jobs. Dont be fed any bull** on that one.

Your earlier post with the measures your colleagues suggested:

1) NO, 2) NO - counterproductive. Once you're going to plan B, tell everybody (in order to explain why you're living at a different adress now) but whilst in A, definately NO NO NO

I did 4), with the result that the little sh*t got so scared that he moved appartments. that gave me some comfort. however, in the larger scheme of things OM and WW had yet another subject to chat about and to violently agree with each other what a horrible person I am. So - it's a NO as well. (having said that, I do look forward to the moment I meet the pr*ck in a dark alley)

Dont do 3 for the same reason. He'll know it's you, as will your wife and soon everybody else. Counterproductive. Maybe to be considered after a Divorce.

thanks nick.

I just feel sometimes like lashing out and hurting those who are hurting me. I know it is not right, but I kinda wish I could.

I want to give her consequences for her actions other than just a D, which she is happy with. In reality, she has had no consequences. I have protected her from everything that could have gone wrong.

Well...if you're going to be dead set on marital counseling or no counseling...then go to marital. But I think that individual would serve you better at this point.

It would show your wife that you are willing to work on yourself and work towards moving forward in your life...with or without her. Our last MC saw us individually for quite some time. Maybe you could find one that practices in both. That way your wife could join you eventually.

NC is absolutely necessary, and any reason for it is nothing but an excuse. The job is an OPTION...and while I'm sure she loves it, she has OTHER OPTIONS. But she's not committed to anyone but herself right now...so for now that's the only option she'll see.

You can't control this situation or it's outcome...you can only control yourself. So every option you listed is a bad one in my opinion...do not involve other people until necessary, do not confront the OM...it will only inflame his desire to show you up. He's dug his own hole...let him fill it with water himself and drown his own sorry [censored].

Please get in to counseling of SOME SORT! You'll wonder why you ever waited so long.

Dear chameleon,

Yes, I did get your msg - good name! Just to tell you that I will be home until about the 19th of August and then away, (visiting inlaws) the last 2 weeks of August. I will try to hop on and off the computer as best I can until then - my H is home on holiday with me and it makes getting on to the comp difficult.

Your legal plan sounds reassuring - and after talk with wife, your revised plan sounds like a good plan.

I think your wife has such serious issues - that was already evident from her "fatal attraction' to OM - I agree with Hope - she is on the path of self-destruction and depressed - she hides her depression from you and needs to cope for the sake of the kids - this doesn't mean she is OK - I don't know if you can, but she really needs individual counselling - she may commit to go to IC if you say that you will give her the space to do that first - and is there no way you can talk to her doctor privately and let him know what is going on - tell him you think she needs meds - she has already had post-natal dep so her doctor should be made aware of the stress she has been under - then maybe he could talk some sense into her.

Will be praying for you - try to do something for yourself too - you deserve it.

(((chameleon)))

LIR

Hope,

I guess I feel selfish going to individual counseling. It costs so much. I need to quit thinking like this. How much do these things cost again? I guess I can cut back on other things, and hide the cost so I do not feel bad.

I do wish WW would go to IC. I will encourage her again.

The 4 options sounded good at the time, but I do not think they are right. It feels like more of an attack back then trying to save the marriage. I will keep the finger off the trigger on these guns.