So, I pick the girls up get to the aiport. Unfortunately, we've run into traffic and are a little late. I go to the nearest car park and would you believe, I nearly park next to same car as OM drives. H is jealous about this as it is unusual "top of range sports car" (his words). Am more concerned to get in and meet him, so hope he won't notice. Of course he does!!!

Then he comes out before we get in there so the surprise of the girls is a little lost. H is v.pleased though that I am there with girls and have dressed up.

H is happy with all the effort I have made and we go out for dinner. Everything is going well, until I decide that perhaps we could start talking - big mistake!!

I begin to tell H that I am in withdrawal, but hopefully we can try and work together etc.etc. This just goes horribly wrong.

H shouts at me, I shout back
H grabs me and pulls my hair
H throws telephone at me, hits me in face
H telephones OM on his home number and starts to leave stupid message about "My wife is acting like a live sick teenager over you, you should know and so should you W of OM"
H and I fight over phone and he pushes me over
I call police as am angry and frightened
I leave house and go to friend close by
H calls to say the police have been round even though I said I did not want to pursue it further and was called a "time waster"
I go back home
H and I both upset but concillatory

We started again this morning and had a good conversation. We are thinking about going on holiday for a week. H asked if I could forgive him for last night, I reply "Only if you can forgive me for the A". Although we have both said yes, I am so upset, because every promise he made me before coming home he has broken (including some pretty horrible name calling).

I know my timing was wrong, but things were just going so well, I thought it may be OK.

My problems are these -

Is it right to go away with H, or will this extremeness happen again (I can put up with anger, but not the physical side), and is this the worst start possible- has it damaged our chances of trying to recover?

Also, what about the message left by H? OM or even his W would surely realise that we were in the middle of a pretty bad fight. I know that OM will worry about my safety - he was before when H found out. Should H call back and leave a message apologising, should I, or should we just leave it? If we leave it, I am scared that OM will contact me to see if I am OK. It was difficult enough before knowing that I would never see or speak to him again, but this has just set all the stomach churning back into motion, and the upset of what will happen - I don't want to speak to OM.

What a bloody mess to start with!!!

Positively, we have talked calmly this morning. I have told H about website and advice here. Although he is upset about withdrawal, in rational moments he understands. He returned the e-mails to me which he had printed from my PC (the ones that he read when he found out), has promised never to go into my office or use my PC and returned details of OM to me. We have been out for lunch and things are a little better.

Please help!!!

The physical side is surely not acceptable. Are you guys in counseling? It may be a good idea in order to help through some of this withdrawal and DH anger towards it.

I would suggest, if you think it can go over rationally, that you talk to DH about the message lefted for OM. Suggest that it may be a good idea that one of you call (preferably him) and let them know that things are ok and that you realize there may be a concern for your welbeing and the two of you wanted to make mentioned that you are fine and there is really no need for further contact. Explain that it's not about putting OM at ease or caring what he thinks etc., but that you beleive OM may contact you, and aside from H not liking this you have no desire to talk to OM.

As for the holiday, it may do you some good to go somewhere together like this and spend some quality time together, However, I would suggest that you guys discuss in detail the inappropriateness of his behavior (physical). He has to understand and begin, immediately, to practice non-physical ways of expressing his feelings.

Maybe it was just a really bad time to bring it up. Maybe he just wanted to enjoy the moment. Let him know you understand that and you are sorry for your contribution in the fight, but that in no way suggests he has any right to be physical like that.

I hope this helps, and I pray you never have to go through something so severe as that. Has he ever been physically violent toward you before? Do you feel that his promise to never do it again is an empty promise? I'm trying to be very open in my response, but I will be honest, his physical response makes me want to send great caution to you. You know your H better than any of us, so I pray your judgment will be the best and not blinded by your desire to reconcile.

My best to you, take care.

Ooops, definately not according to plan. Looking at the bright side, maybe this explosion was necessary to mark the turning point?

Your husband definately needs help. I felt the same when I discovered. Luckily I found ideas here - he might be alone. Do you know what's going in his head? he might wonder: who of all the people he knows know and laugh about him? he might imagine himself you being intimate with OM. He might have horrible thoughts. All this makes him crazy. That's not an excuse for him reacting the way he did - just an explanation and to emphasise that he needs help.

He might be too scared/proud/whatever to seek professional advice - in any case, recommed it. Or better, take him there. If he doesnt want to, give him something to read. For example, print out stuff from this site (like, why Affairs happen) or some books so he can at least understand and start controlling his feelings.

Lisa, oh so sorry that it went this way. You are both in a very raw state right now.

You should take a time-out to reflect on what has happened and allow your H some time to to process what has occurred. It was explosive to say the least.

Try and focus on the longer term which my understanding for you is determining properly if your M is what you want. At the moment he has just come back and will be very emotional as you have been and will be.

I would suggest you consider MC as soon as possible. I would suggest that it is too early to go away on vacation. Vacations are often stressful for partners that haven't been together due to work or what ever and you don't have any nearby support if you need to get away as you did! I'd put that somewhere in the future.

I would suggest that you did not have any contact with OM including calling to apologize.

Try and do little positive things today so that you can sleep with a better day than yesterday.

Hugs, Ben.

"Also, what about the message left by H? OM or even his W would surely realise that we were in the middle of a pretty bad fight. I know that OM will worry about my safety - he was before when H found out. Should H call back and leave a message apologising, should I, or should we just leave it? If we leave it, I am scared that OM will contact me to see if I am OK. It was difficult enough before knowing that I would never see or speak to him again, but this has just set all the stomach churning back into motion, and the upset of what will happen - I don't want to speak to OM"

Don't want to talk to him???Then DON'T...WHO cares if he is upset or scared or concerned?..Your concern should be with your H,if you truly wish to reconcile.NOT easy,esp.with his behavior...How terrible for both of you(BOTH OF YOU<NOT OM!)If he calls, WHAT will you do? I would hope you don't talk to him and TELL your H he called...

Lisa,

Ok, just calm down here for a few minutes OK? I only have a few moments this morning and was going to post to you later but decided perhaps I should do it now.

First, are you physically OK? I truely hope so. Second, is this unusual behavior from him? If so, then I want you to listen to me very very carefully.

Don't try to horse trade your A for his outburst. He will feel awful for what he did and he needs to deal with that. Just as you feel awful for the A and you need to deal with that. I think what you saw is 4-6 weeks worth of steam go off in your face. If he is a typically a reserved man, then he has no one to talk to about all of this for all of this time. You I suspect were of little use as you are still focusing on the OM. Actually, that fact alone of course makes it worse.

I am not trying to justify what he did, but I don't think you realize how much pain, anger, and steam there really is in this situation. As you pointed out, your timing could have been better.

It was encouraging to see that today was a better day. Lisa, you really don't have an idea yet and there is no way to explain. You feel awful for losing your OM. But, you have NOT been rejected by OM, he was not yours to reject. Your H has been rejected by you. It is not only that you don't love him, it is that you choose another man and rejected him, and you covered it with lies.

Why am I repeating what you intellectually know? Because Lisa you need to appreciate how wounded he is. He is in sort of a fight or flight mode, so go slowly. Let time and patience by your guide here. He will approach YOU when he wants to talk about it. In perhaps a month or so, he will be able to help you get over OM, but letting you talk of your pain. It takes time.

Lots and lots of time, for this to work out. I think the idea of a holiday for you two is great, but I would like to suggest that you view this holiday as if you two were starting to get to know one another after a two year separation. A lot of small talk, discussion of politics, the weather, and very strong sense of politeness, care, and (I like the word, grace).

You may not love him, but you do care. Be caring and I think that you will see the same in him. He may ask questions, if you find them too draining, sit down and do a little POJA. Agree, that you will enjoy the holiday and each other, but will reserve a certain each time for relationship talks and questions. When the time is up, go back to normal life for awhile.

Gradually, I think you two will be able to address your issues. But, go slow and agree to go slow. Talk to each other about this, see what both of you are comfortable with, discuss it but don't debate it. If you two cannot agree on something, then it doesn't happen. That is the POJA. This should be true with affections, affair questions, relationship talks, holding hands, kissing, and yes even sex. Talk about it before hand so that your time together can be comfortable but well thought out.

What I am saying is before you two decide to see what there is left, set out a plan as to how you will behave toward one another, and how you will seek to reach this decision. As with all plans things do change but if the two of you can sort of map out things, yes, even a window of time for affair questions and relationship talks it will help.

My opinion is that first and foremost you need to get used to being in each others presence again. I know you saw each other a lot during the two years and yes you talked to him alot, but remember most of the last 6 months of talking was lies on your part. He has no idea what to believe. So start small: tell him the sky is blue and when he looks up and sees that it is, he will gradually get a bit more trust back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously, it is baby steps from here on.

Must go, hang in there and have patience.

God Bless,

JL

JL put that very very well - completely agree with him. Couldn't have put this better myself, really.

Hi Lisa,

I hope you are okay. Be careful. Has he been violent before? It makes me ask, especially because OM was concerned for your safety when A was revealed. In my book there is no excuse for violence. An A is no justification for violence. I don't care how frustrated he is. He is responsible to control his behavior.

I agree with both Just Learning and Sue with hope.

You might want consider writting your H a letter in which you validate his pain for your A but at the same time telling him that violence is unacceptable and counterproductive to marital recovery.

Keep us posted.

Dear Lisa,
I'm very, very sorry this happened - you must have been very frightened. I hope you are able to get to your computer soon and get back to us. We do care. You may be the WS in this R, but I think as you can see, that so many people here understand how you feel and feel compassion for you. Some people here have been on both sides of the fence, and most of us BS are well aware that if we are unhappy in our marriages, then we are just as vulnerable to an affair as our WS. So when people here remind you of your past actions, it is only out of kindness to try to help you understand both sides, not to lay blame,

I hope you are able to tell us soon whether this reaction from your H is something you have seen before - did this take you completely by surprise, or were you afraid already that this was something he was capable of?

I think you have had some very good advice here. It sounds like your H is very remorseful for his reaction. JL is right when he points out that your H is not yet ready to listen to you talk, especially about your feelings for OM. I have learned, in dealing with my H, that I have to prepare him beforehand if I want to talk. First, I ask "Is this a good time to talk, if not, we can talk later. Let me know if and when." I give him the option. I give him time to register in his brain the fact that I need him to listen and prepare himself. It also gives him some feeling that he has a choice and is in control. This is vital for you to do, especially when you are dealing with a man who feels like a wounded bear. If H feels like he can cope with talking, he will come back - if not, he will say, "i can't cope with talking right now, I need more time."

When I first found out about H's second EA, we also got into a scuffle in the kitchen - not as bad as yours - but bad enough to frighten both of us. My H was mad that I had "hacked" into his private e-mail account. He made a nasty remark. I left the room and told him to piss off. I went downstairs to get away from him. He followed me and taunted me, goading me into a fight. I was ironing and he stood behind me arguing with me - then he reached across the ironing board to get a spoon out of the drawer. I was on a hair trigger. I had e-mailed my H earlier in the day and asked him to give me space, that I needed time to sort my head out - I think H was feeling guilty, but was also furious at my "invasion of privacy". He was too close to me physically and I snapped. I brought the iron down on the board, next to his arm. I had no intention of burning him with it, i just wanted him to back off and leave me alone. If I had wanted to burn him with it, i would have brought it down on his arm. H thought I had tried to burn him, looked at me and started screaming foul names at me, then grabbed me by the back of the neck with one hand, and grabbed my hand holding the iron with the other. He manhandled me around our tiny kitchen for a few minutes - I couldn't let go of the iron because he had his hand gripped around mine. I didn't want to drop it because it might burn my feet - it was also a new iron and I didn't want to break it! LOL Finally he got it away from me and held me at arms length. I looked at him for a minute, then I just punched him in the face. I was sick of being bullied, shouted at, lied to, mistreated. Well, I cut his eyebrow and drew blood. He was horrified but backed off at that point and left the house, threatening to call the police if there was a "next time".

I apologized both in person and in writing that same night. But my H has not forgiven me for this and still brings it up. My H has also been explosive since then, but that is another story, and is the primary reason why we are both now in counselling.

I'm not saying I was justified in hitting him and I am not justifying your H behaving the way he did with you. But when there are such strong emotions involved, sometimes these awful encounters happen. I would be very concerned if there is any kind of pattern of this in your H's behaviour. I also think it is very important to try to set some boundaries, as JL has said, that are mutually agreeable to you both. You need to feel physically safe. This is primary. No matter what you have done, he is not justified in abusing you physically.

You said he promised never to enter your office or go on to your PC, and that he returned the e-mails to you. I also felt this kind of confused remorse. What I saw hurt me so bad - but I still felt that I had violated his privacy and apologized for it. I gave him back his mobile and promised not to touch it. I asked him to change his password so I couldn't get into his e-mail account. These were entirely the wrong things to do - they only made my anxiety worse and made me feel worse about myself. What would have been constructive in rebuilding our R would have been if my H had given me his mobile, and kept the same password, and let me check his e-mail account whenever I wanted to - he didn't do this because his A was ongoing and he was not ready to quit. He still has "his" mobile pincode locked and still guards his private e-mail account zealously. I do not trust him and won't, until he is able to be totally transparent with me in these areas.

You will find that this site recommends total honesty, openness and transparency on these issues. So I would go back to your H and tell him that he has your permission to enter your office at any time he likes, (as long as he is not threatening you physically or berating you verbally), give him your mobile so that he can check your call log whenever he wants, and give him the passwords to your e-mail accounts.

You do want to be able to get the support you need from this forum - you can do that and keep what you say private as long as you make sure you erase the history on your computer after you use it. Many BS end up installing spy software on their WS computer if their suspicions are not allayed by WS behaviour. If you are not completely open, you run the risk of your H doing this to you, so I encourage you to be transparent with all of your methods of private communication. You are the one who has to prove to him that he can trust you not to contact the OM. If you do that, then even if the OM contacts you, your H will see that you were not the one who initiated contact. I cannot stress to you how important this is and I am sure every other BS on this site would agree with me.

I am so sorry this happened, but you still have a good chance of recovering your marriage. Do you have a counselling appt yet? I know there are waiting lists - I do hope it is not too long.

Take care,
LIR

Everybody - thank you.

I think that a common theme running through these responses is do I think H will be physical again - no I don't. What I do think is that during his last few weeks working abroad, he has had to cope and get on with work issues, moving out of his flat, leaving parties, people saying "Oh I bet you can't wait to get home to Lisa. Bet she feels the same", pressure of knowing about the A, but not being able to seek professional help until he got back home etc. etc. I think Nick and JL were right, this was just an explosion because of a combination of things, and perhaps most importantly being away from me, not communicating properly at a distance (being in limbo). It was almost like he found out all over again, and it just sent him crazy. He knows absolutely that physical behaviour is completely unacceptable, and feels awful about it.

Worse though, is that after calming down, the pain he feels about the A has come back with a vengence. He said the pain had stopped before (probably because he was so busy), but now he feels he can't cope with it. What do I do about that? How do I help him? I just didn't know what to say last night.

JL, physically I am OK - just a little cut on my nose, not terribly attractive! Mentally I just feel so awful again to have put him through this and trying to know how to deal with his pain and upset. I asked him if he wanted to talk, and he did. Trouble with my H is that sometimes he will literally talk for hours, and then this drags me down as my own mental turmoil starts again. I do want to help him, and try and put him first in this situation, because as I say, it is almost like he found out all over again. I don't think I was trading the A for the anger, it was more "Well, you're asking me to forgive you, but can you possibly forgive me for something even worse?"

LIR thank you for sharing your story. I did omit during my first post the fact that after H had made the phone call to OM and I had wrestled the phone from him, I throw it back at him and hit him with it a couple of times - didn't leave that out on purpose, just wanted to forget my own bad behaviour, I guess! I didn't ask for the e-mails back or for him not to use my office, he offered this himself. He knows that the A is well and truly over, and when OM called me I told him about it. It seems to be with my H not that I will start the A back up or lack of trust, it is his terrible pain. He said yesterday "I know that you won't start the A again, or have another one. I know you realise that what you have done has broken me completely and you just wouldn't do it again" Nor would I, nor would I entertain OM again. That is why I am worried about him calling me, because I just do not want to have to even think about speaking to him again ever.

H wants some IC desperately, but has been unable to organise anything until he came back home. We have also agreed to MC with Relate.

We are still discussing some time away, but if we do, I will follow the advice of JL - this was something that H had already said about some ground rules etc.

Thank you all, but as I say, how do I help H through his pain?

Just a quick update.

H has booked first IC session tomorrow. I have booked week's holiday in Menorca - nice quiet resort, hopefully some sun, and an appartment - which means space for both of us if needs be.

I am not sure that I am doing the right thing, but we are going to agree our ground rules, and I believe stick to them.

H reminded me this morning of some of the things I said to him in anger - gosh, I forget that I had it in me. He walked away from me and I said some really awful things. It doesn't justify his behaviour, but I have to take some responsibility for what I said too - was trying to hurt him, and certainly did that. H has also been going on at me about OM. He says I need to get back to reality about that situation - what he means is that the time we spent together was not real, we didn't know each other properly, and basically OM used me to get away from his responsibilities - i.e. W and 4 kids. Whilst this is true, I cannot yet accept it, as I am still in WD, and this makes me just want to defend myself and OM. Have tried to tell H, that whilst I understand his upset and hurt, all this will do is push me into a corner and make me defensive. I hope this is right.

Also, still would like some advice about dealing with his pain.....

Thanks everyone

Hi Lisa,

You are about to hear the worst news. There is nothing you can do for his pain. You can inflict it but you cannot help him deal with it. He has to. You can however be there for him as he deals with it. You can answer his questions. You can reassure him to the best of your abilities. But, you cannot ease it. Only he and time can do that, so have patience.

Lisa, I must say that your physical attact on him is no less reprehensible than his on you. I think you really need to stop and think about your actions of the two I expected more self control from you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am glad to hear that he has found an IC hopefully that will help him.

I am also glad that you two are going on holiday. I would again stress that boundaries be set. Perhaps you can agree to answer his questions but request that for awhile the discussions be about the affair, you, and H rather than discuss OM. He can and should be dealt with later.

I would again suggest compartmentalizing the times. I like to walk the beach at sunrise, and at sunset. So for me those would be times and the time around those times when I would not want to do relationship discussions of the sort you are going to have. I also like to think and talk about hard things while walking, so I would take a walk around noon and do some discussing of things. I would do it later at night, but stop an hour before bedtime with the agreement that perhaps some physical contact, holding hands, hugs, and a nightcap was in order.

You and H must judge this for yourselves, but think carefully about the moods you and H are in during the day and pick times when you are refreshed and rested to hand the hard stuff, but don't ruin the stuff you like best with these discussions. Do you see what I mean.

Lisa, this will take time and that is why I posted SKM's thread to you. But in time your guilt, pain, and fears will go away and so will your H's. It is the nature of things that this occurs.

God Bless,

JL

PS: One last thing. You two should agree that when one or the other of you is getting too angry or hurt, that they can say something, a phrase, that lets the other that it is time to take a break. Even something as cryptic as "I need to back off." The idea is that it is understood by both that this is NOT a rejection, but simply a resting place. Then later come back to the point, but hopefully with less anger, or defensivness, and begin again.

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Another bad night with H awake in the middle of the night telling me "I'm trying to think of reasons why I should live with the pain" etc. I told him his daughters are two very good reasons, let alone anything else.

H spent a good 2 hours awake, I joined him for 1 and then couldn't get back to sleep for another hour. Just feel run down again and wonder why bother with all this upset? H feels he has no control and I am all powerful - has always felt like this. I told him he has choices he can make too. H also keeps going back to things he has read that I have said - think this is completely unhelpful to quote back to me from my e-mails on a regular basis things I said 10 weeks/5 weeks ago. I told him that he knows what I said, but things change with time, and he hadn't expected me to either a) go on holiday with him or b) have him back in the house, so surely those were both positive things about the way I was thinking and maybe moving towards. Have also said that I don't know if things will work out for us, that it will be long hard and painful, and we may still come out the other end not wanting to be together. He says this is inevitable, so I say to him, then you make a decision if this is what you feel - I don't, but am just being realistic that it may not go the way we hope it will.

All rubbish, don't want to go away later today. Will try and find internet/e-mail place if I can, but if not will be back on the board in a week or so.

his self-esteem is as low as it possibly can; his mind torments him if he thinks about you two; before he was a man, a father, a husband - now he is nothing. That's what is so brutal about being a betrayed spouse, and a feeling everybody on this board can relate to I beleive.
if you are committed to, then the best you can do is silently support him, hold him, be apologetic. thats not a cure, but should make him feel a bit better.
it took me more than a week to be able to start eating again.... had nightmares for a long time. at some point I had enough, sat on my bike and biked from London down to Paris, can you beleive it. that helped, actually:=)

Lisa, checkin' in on how you are?