I MOVED THIS FROM dIVORCED TO GET A WIDER VARIETY OF OPINIONS:

I did not want to threadjack people's thread so started this one. Posted similiar on my other board. However, I'd really like to get a BS perspective.

Ugh!!! I am so sick of women that use their children as pawns. There is no excuse for it.

My D is 8-years-old. Her dad lives right here in the same town. He rarely visits. This weekend he wanted to have her over. I agreed - no questions. EVen though we were already going out of town and even though he still owes me backpay on CS. Even though I think he is an @ss for not seeing her more frequently.

MM has an 11-year-old son from a previous relationship. Apparently the mother was not very accomodating in letting him see his son. He is about to file for visitation. On a whim I called her and she agrees to let us pick him up. I told her we will buy him some school clothes, take him to the dentist, and take him to Wild Adventures. She had sent him to Texas for the summer.

MM's son has never seen his sister - the 1-year-old D he has w/ W. We had the baby over this past week up until 08/02/02. This was the D's first visit w/ us in our own home. The ONLY reason the W agreed is I made a snide comment about being grateful the baby never came over as I was not looking forward to doing the whole diaper thing again. We had a blast w/ the baby.

So MM calles W last night and asks can he pick up his D as he has finally got his son and wants the 2 of them to meet. She goes into a whole tantrum about how he ruined her life etc. He stated that yes we were wrong and selfish and that he would not try to justify the EMR. He stated he had not ruined her life as she has moved on and has another man now living in her home.

The W stated that she wanted to spend the evening w/ D. MM offered to have her home before she got off work. She has certification today and will be there 8 - 5. Meanwhile the D will be stuck in the house w/ her half sister who is pissed that not only does she have to babysit, but that she can't even go to Wild Adventures - see below.

She continued to rage about her pain and stated you and _______ - me will never enjoy my D again. He calmly told her he hoped she would reconsider and terminated the call. W calls back. He again calmly stated for her to please look past the EMR and her pain. He stated that there are 2 children in the world that are related and have never met. He stated he just wanted to pick her up and take her to Wild Adventures for a couple of hours and the pool. She asked would I be there. He stated yes. He pointed out that I had offered to stay at home if that was the only way she would agree to the visit. She still refused.

Then get this. About a half hour later a child called. I thought it was MM's niece at first. It was W's D - 12-year-old D. She asked me why her step-dad never took her to Wild Adventures. Meanwhile the W is in the background asking what did he say? I called MM to the phone. He told the D that we would be more than happy to take her. Step D excitedly tells W that she can go. Her mother screamed she would go nowhere w/ us. The D yelled back you said I could go if he'd let me. I guess she thought we would say no. W got furious and demanded D tell MM more messages. He politely told the step D that she should not be in the middle of adult conversations. He apologized that she had to hear her mother yelling etc. He then hung up.

W kept calling till I finally turned the ringer off. And all my friends wonder why I never have my ringer on - duh!

I am not asking the W to forgive us or to even move on or get over it. However, it would seem that she could set aside her anger and not use both of her kids as pawns. Why do women do that. It only hurts the kids in the end. A man should not have to beg to see his own children. Pure insanity.

I was never even married to my D's father. Technically at this point he has no legal rights to visit her. I feel that I have a moral obligation to ensure that they enjoy a relationship as much as he is willing.

RECAP OF POST ON PEOPLE'S THREAD:

I am very curious to get the BS perspective. In my case MM has a 1-year-old D w/ W. They have been separated for over 6 months. He also has one other child by another woman - he is 11. Generally MM has visited the D in marital home (at W's request) while she is at work - second shift. She called me recently and since I did not want her to know I was bothered that she wouldn't let baby over, I made an off handed comment about being grateful the baby wasn't coming over because I did not look forward to doing the whole diaper scene again - my baby is 8 - and that it gave MM and I time to connect one on one.

Well low and behold W calls MM and requests he get D for a few days. We had a blast and even had her on 08/01 - both my and her bday. I don't get how she all of a sudden flip flopped on us. However, we enjoyed the baby a great deal.

This week MM got his son. He called W and asked could he get D so she could meet her brother. His son's mother hasn't been the most giving in re: visitation. W stated NO. She stated it was because I would be there - we were going to go to a theme park for 3 hours. I offered to stay home - she still said no. We would not "enjoy" her D anymore. After she sent her over for several days???

MM then stated he wished for one day she would set her pain and anger aside. He stated that there are 2 children in the world that are related - please let them spend time together. Still her reply - NO.

A few minutes after he terminated the call a little girl called for him. He was in shower so I told her to hold on. Meanwhile I here the W in background stating "what did he say". MM comes to the phone. His W's teenaged D asked him could she go too. He asked me and I said sure. So D excitedly tells W she can go. W then yells you are not going anywhere. D yells back - but you said I could if he would let me.

I hate that she is using the kids this way. I know she is angry at us, but she also has a new man in her life. She and he have both admitted they were seeing each other prior to MM's dday. This other man is at her home 24/7. MM is a good father. He sees his D at least 3 times a week. He pays CS over the mandated ammt. Never late or missed a payment.

Just a question for the BS. I know you can not answer for his W per se, but when does one begin to set aside the anger at OW. I plan on being a part of his life for as long as possible. W realizes that when D goes through she will have no say in this - her own atty has told her so too. Why can't she be grateful that at least I am good to her D. I love kids. She stated I stole her H and was afraid I would steal her D too.

I told her I didn't steal H. I told her she would always be D's mother and I respected that - nor would I ever try to replace her or undermine her.

This woman is so petty. About 2 months ago I had picked out the D around 6 summer outfits as W had told H she needed more clothes - this in addition to the CS she receives. Well she really liked one of the outfits and had D's pic made in it. H later made off handed comment about a particular store I shop at and how I got such a great deal on that outfit.

Well W was so mad I had picked it out she destroyed all the pics of baby in it and threw it away. I picked out all the outfits and bought them. I am just like that. For example, yesterday while at the mall I saw the cutest patent leather shoes in baby's size. I bought them as W had mentioned that D needed a pair of Church shoes. Does it really matter who picked them out? Would the BS here be upset? She has to realize we combine all of our income. When he gets paid he just gives me his check. I pay all the bills out of that and combine the extra w/ my money.

Another example. This past Friday MM was in hospital having ekg and stress test. We always pay the CS on Fridays. She had called the night before and stated she really needed it. Well MM was not going to be able to give it to her - he was in H. I dropped it off at her job. I used to work there too and know everyone. Well because I had written the check in my handwriting (he and I have a joint account) she tore it up and stated she would rather go without than to cash a check that I wrote out??? What difference does that make? I really don't get it.

ARGH!!!

nevermind

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

It doesn't matter what you say, do or think, to his W you are the OW and nothing is going to change that. She does not want you to be an influence in her children's lives because you are the OW, you are considered and interloper, uninvited guest and usurper to most BS, that's just the way it is. To her she's not using the kids but rather keeping them away from what she considers a bad influence(you and the situation you and MM are in)

You put yourself into a very volatile and destructive situation and you should not wonder why the fuse keeps getting lit.

As long as this couple is married and have to have contact for any reason(and with a child that means forever) you will remain this woman's OW. Maybe once they are divorced and the dust settles this will change but I doubt it. You will always be a painful reminder or betrayl and a failed marriage, sorry but that is usually how it works out.

SOW22MM,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I feel that I have a moral obligation...." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Come again?

I have to say too, that since they have such a young baby his betrayl probably hurts even more than most. If it were me quite honestly, I'd want a court order to not allow visitation in the presence of my H's affair partner. It can and should be done, you have no business being part of her children's lives, you're an affair partner, not a wife and not a girlfriend, they aren't even divorced.

Amen!

I agree with all the above! What do you expect his W to do??? Sure she is pissed, but any decent parent would NOT allow their young children to hang out in an affair!!! Until they are D, don't step over the line of what is acceptable!! She does NOT seem to be using her children, she seems to be PROTECTING them!!! After their D, well that's another story! Don't make her get so pissed that she may in the future keep their children from their dad!

Please remember the pain the BS is going through! You helped create that pain!

-mcnyh

Hmmm, after much thought and consideration this is what I propose is in the best interest of the children.

Even though his wife has moved on and has another man living in the home and has decided to play phone games and use her child from a previous marriage to relay messages we will just disregard this behavior because she is hurt so therefore her actions hold no consequense.

Because we here at MB are obviously perfect judges of morality and rightousness and have never hurt another being either by intention or omission we may continue to pass judgement and post remarks here that are intended to cut and scar without a second thought because the original poster is inherently flawed. She was the OW and that makes her bad, or does it? I thought that there were many among us that we embraced and supported that bore that title. I could begin to list names, but that would make me as petty as the ones of you that take offense to my post.

So, in the best interest of the year old child SOW22MM should leave the soon to be divorced man.

Now, considering his STBXW already is living with another man he can't very well move back into the family home. We could make him plan A, but you really can't make people do things they don't want to do can you?

SOW22MM should what? Maybe she should take her child and live in a cave? Or better yet, since we here at MB have judged her so harshly now and before maybe we should have the child removed from her custody and placed in one of our so disfunctional homes and then send her to some sort of convent for daily beatings and brainwashings.

I know, this is all way out of line for me, but I feel as if sometimes we are all so stuck in our little MB box and we neglect to see the big picture.

There are people who made stupid mistakes that deeply hurt other people. But they are doing their best to move on, and trying the best they can to repair the damage they caused.

How can we help them?

What would Jesus do?

E

I have to admit... I might act the same way if I was in the BS's position. When people are hurt that bad, earth shattering hurt, their emotions run rampant.

I wouldn't expect this woman to make things easy for you guys.

You can't save someone from themselves....

SOW22MM,

I hope you get what you are looking for.

Ok, E, if I were to be a good MB'er, I'd advise her to back out of these relationships, take no more money from married men, quit allowing her children to witness co-parenting with a married man, struggle alone, find and heal herself, then make a vow to herself NOT GET INVOLVED WITH A MARRIED MAN AGAIN, EVER.

Walk the walk......

Sorry, JTW, I respect you and your opinions but in this case the advice that she should follow is to keep her nose out of it. Let the H write the checks, see the kids on his own and buy the gifts. It's way too early for her to play step-mom here, it's like rubbing salt into a big ol' festering sore.
Also, this is not the first time this particular poster has bad mouthed the mother of her affair partner's children. I'd be very curious to hear the whole unfiltered truth here because I'm sorry the OW cannot give that and hearing her talk crap about the W of the man she's living with is just...ugh...it just is.
Am I morally perfect, absolutely not but during my ex's A and our divorce I sure as hell was.
She needs to play it low key now, leave w and kids alone and let the h handle them. It's really none of her business and she's only escalating the situation.
As for the w living with another man....I take that comment with a grain of salt for reasons of my own.

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</small>

I agree. I posted this before but as a reminder to newbies, Easter sunday my kids came home from their dad's with approx $100 worth of junk, bunnies, candy, pencils, etc. I asked my son where he got that huge basket and he said

"Daddy's wife gave it to me"

Needless to say, I had to bite my tongue. I'm happy that my children get along with OW but I don't like it one bit that she is trying to buy them off. They are kids and yes, it does matter where things come from. She is not their step-mom and has no right to buy them loads of junk then send it home with them to flaunt it in my face. If she wants to spoil them, it should be on her own time and she can deal with the candy wrappers, hyperactivity, cavities, polyester stuffing from one end of living room to another because dog loves to destroy small stuffed rabbits, etc.

The obvious thing is that my H never did the Easter bunny thing. He used to say they didn't need all that junk. One chocolate bunny was the standard for the past 10 years. Hope he knows he set a pretty expensive standard for the future. My kids never forget anything.

Eliz, what's gotten into you????

PP

Hope you don't mind JTW...

...but I believe JTW is saying to look at the essence of what SOW22MM is saying... which is... we the parents, the adults, do really stupid stuff which ends up hurting the kids because we are hurting...

...and, NO, I don't believe that SOW22MM is 'reaping what she and MM sowed.' THE KIDS ARE. If, MMW was inflicting pain only on MM and SOW22MM... that MIGHT be different... but she IS USING A YOUNG CHILD... and I don't care how HURT you are... LEAVE THE KIDS OUT OF IT...

and, I am speaking as one pawn/child of divorced parents... not as a BW...

btw... SOW22MM... if you get the inkling to change your username to something less inflammatory <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> [shortening your name to SOW just made me cringe and chuckle]... it is really easy... and you don't have to re-register... go to "my profile" click on update profile... and you can change the publicly displayed name ... I remember you mentioned in a prior post that you weren't altogether happy w/ this name...

Hope the visit w/ everyone worked out.

Cali

I think that you need to stay completely out of parenting issues with children that are not yours.

This stuff is between your married man and his wife and his ex. No matter the status of their marriage or his relationship with you, they will always be "the parents". Parenting decisions should be made by them. Stay out of it.

While you are venting about "games" played by the other side, you are playing your own - I've read both here and "there" about how you so proudly manipulated (so you say) the wife into leaving the baby with you so you could play family with your marrieid man.

It seems to me that IF everything is factually as you portray it, that every adult involved, including yourself, is behaving selfishly and with very little real thought for the welfare and benefit (long term) of all the children. You are all playing games.

Why don't you set an example and stop playing?

Nothings gotten into me, really. I promise.

I am a kind person. I hate to see others hurt. I've made my mistakes, and I do whatever I can to make up for them.

It's very hard for me to explain all of my feelings on this. It really doesn't relate to this one poster or this one situation.

Let's use the disrespectful judgement thing. Were any of the answers given on this thread written in a manner that could be considered DJ's? Could they have been changed to a different tone that may have gotten the same point accross?

Were there any posts on this thread that did not contribute supportive or informative thoughts but instead just expressed anger and inflamitory feelings? Might that poster have been better off ignoring this thread entirely and put his/her efforts to better use on a Just Found Out thread comforting someone with a quick "I feel your pain and will pray for you."

I didn't refer to any specific answer because I'm not thinking of a specific answer. I'm just running off a general impression of the reaction I have gotten from reading responses this poster has had now and before.

I understand that this board shares a world of pain, and quite frankly as I care for my half dead ex-husband and my 2 small children with pennies scrounged from the ground I can wear some sort of pain trophy; but does that mean that we then have the right to project our pain onto every person that has had an affair?

Look around you. Look at your parents, your friends, your siblings, pastors, preists, neighbors. You just don't know. It happened to the person that you trusted most in the world. The person that you loved, that you still love.

If you can treat your WS with respect you can treat the original poster with respect. At least I am not ashamed to.

I treat my WS with so much respect that I wiped the poop off of him when he was in the hospital. Even though he was with OW the night before. I care for him every single day. I do for him whatever I can. The man that showed no respect for me is getting the best possible medical care and legal help all because of me. He can see the children whenever possible - almost daily. If he has an accident I clean it up. If something needs to be done I take care of it.

If I can do all of this for someone that treated me like I was nothing, why can't someone who comes to a message board posting their situation honestly for advice and support be given it or ignored by those who hate her without knowing her?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

E

Thank you Cali.

...but I believe JTW is saying to look at the essence of what SOW22MM is saying... which is... we the parents, the adults, do really stupid stuff which ends up hurting the kids because we are hurting...

I agree with BR....sow is playing games....she new that saying something about not wanting to change the babies diapers.....that this would start something. This was her motive...to manipulate the situation. It was sneaky....and not acceptable.

Morality???? That's a whole other story!

E- I think that the BS was wrong with putting a child on the phone to speak to MM. That was disappointing. I understand that people make mistakes.....we are not perfect....but these are choices that people make. They are not in a deep sleep when they are making these decisions! I think it's great that you spoke your opinion even though it was different than most!

Max

Thanks Max. Not directing my next comments at you, just another thing I'd like to point out.

The diaper deal: She said "Fine, don't send the baby over because I didn't want to change her anyway." (something like that)

and guess who is dropped off with the diaper bag?

So the kid wasn't getting time with her Dad and his live in OW made a comment to see if the kid was being kept from Dad because of her.

Sounds just like a million and two sneaky things I did to find out about the things WH was doing. But in the sacred name of marriage all moral standards are tossed out the window and I can be as sly as a fox right?

And when the STBXW has the kid from previous marriage call and ask to go to the theme park and then freaks when she is extended an invite...

Games!

So with respect and love my friend, I'm going to point the finger at the original poster for starting the thing with the diaper deal - a bit uncool. Let's try and keep things above board even when the person you are playing with is a few fries short of a happy meal.

This is the story, we cannot do this to our children. We also cannot do this to each other.

Now, if I can beg one more moment of your time.

Did you notice how I approached the situation about the diaper deal? What I said to express my feelings? I wasn't mean, and I did it with love and respect. I even said with love and respect so she understood exactly how I felt.

This is how we should treat each other and our children.

Love and respect.

E

OK Sow,

You want a BS opinion? Well here's one:

1. Stay out of the relationship with the parent and child. Let the MM do the shopping, let the MM change the diapers. Let the MM speak with his family. Let the MM be the parent. Let the MM spend time with his children without you.

2. You keep away from the MM during this family time. It is not your family.

3. The wife or wives have the right to be incensed that you are on the fringes of their family. To them you appear to be the vulture waiting to get your claws into their family. They may take it as a personal attack on their family. Even though you have the MM's permission, you do not have moral or the mother's permission. Then you do not have the family's permission.

Does this sound harsh? Well when you are the parent and someone wants to replace you without your consent, you will find out what it feels like. It is 100 times worse than seeing someone sit at your desk at work, taking your paycheck, answering your phone, etc. Wouldn't you get incensed if someone stole your identity and confused a young mind?

If you are able to show good faith, you would keep yourself away until this MM gets a legal divorce and legal visitation can be worked out. Then at least it will be legal.

Right now you are pushing your relationship in her face (whether you realize it or not). You can do it but it does not make it right.

Now the mother may not be acting in the best interests of the child all the time. You are contributing to those actions. So in essence you are partially responsible for how the children are being used as pawns. Just by definiantly being with the MM in front of the children.

Have you no respect for the children? Or did you not realize how your conduct is just as guilty?

JMHO,
L.

SOW22MM,

My H almost left me and our 3 children for OW with two of her own, so I did have to think about the possibility of my kids having step-siblings and all that it would entail.

My question for you is this... If you're so offended by W using kids as pawns, how does it make you any better that you're using your position as mother of a MM's kids to be judgemental about the W. I'm not saying that W's behavior is healthy, but your MM IS still married and you did knowingly and willingly become an extra-marital party. I know that you must have your own anxieties, pain and frustration and I am sorry for that. I really can't begin to imagine what you must be going through, but you must mind your own business and accept the fact that this MM's family is just that... HIS family. You should probably be concentrationg on your own child and the fact that you are living a life that may not be all that good an example for your D. After all, would you want her to make the same decisions you have regarding men? Regardless of your feelings for MM and the pain his W may be causing him by using the kids, that's between THEM. DEAL.