First let me give you a little background. I have been married for several years. Most of those years I have not been very happy in my marriage. I have been very frustrated that my needs have not been met very well. I have tried to discuss this with my wife but it has not gone very well. About a year ago I discovered Marriage Builders and read the books Love Busters and His Needs - Her Needs. I was also involved in an lopsided EA. The EA was ended. I started going to counseling alone since my wife wouldn’t join me. I have tried to get my wife to read Love Busters and His Needs - Her Needs but she has refused to read them because she felt like I was trying to change her. We have been going to counseling together but it hasn’t been very successful because of my wife unwillingness to change. I tried to Plan A my wife with very little results. Basically things are where they were a year ago.

Back to my question. I find myself seeing good qualities in women that I wish my wife had. I see women who are prettier, work harder, exercise, fun to be around, etc. etc. etc. As an example this past week I spent four days volunteering at a high school band camp. There were several women there and only three men. I was kept busy helping in the kitchen for three meals and three snacks each day. I also helped move band equipment around etc. My wife was also there and she did help but I was amazed at the how much more work some of the other women did. Some worked very hard and others didn’t do as much. I found myself comparing the amount of work my wife did as compared to some of the other women. One woman I will admit I was attracted to. She worked hard, she was pretty, I enjoyed conversation with her etc. When she left she gave me a hug. It wasn’t just this woman that I saw qualities that I liked. Some of the other women also had qualities that I liked. I received a lot of praise and admiration. Sadly I admit that I enjoyed the company of some of these other women more than my own wife. It is not just this last week that I find myself admiring qualities that other women have that my wife doesn’t have. I find myself doing this at work, church etc. I find this very frustrating. I know that some of you are going to say that I am just seeing the good qualities in other women and not seeing their faults. You are going to also say that I am just seeing the bad qualities in my wife and not seeing the good. I am going to be blunt here and say that I just don’t buy it. Yes, I know that I am doing this to some degree but there really are a lot of women that have many more good qualities than my wife.

Yes I know that my emotional needs are not being met and this is partially the cause of this frustration. So how do I deal with this frustration of being attracted to other women?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want Love:
<strong>So how do I deal with this frustration of being attracted to other women?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can tell you how NOT to deal with it... and that is to stay away from the other women. Don't get yourself involved in another EA, and don't look for a PA either.

I feel for you, that you sound as though you have done so much "homework" on the Harley principles, tried your best to encorporate them into your life and M, and then have your W not reciprocate it at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It's no wonder you're admiring other women... your love bank with your W is seriously depleted!!!

IMO, now is the time to decide where to go from here. Do you want to stay married to your W assuming that nothing in her behaviours will change? Have you plan A'd all you can and want to give up and move on with your life? Or do you want to give it another try, and start from (almost) scratch again with your W? Your answer should lie within your heart and mind, and is based around whether or not you believe you have done EVERYTHING you could possibly do to recover your M.

How much of the radical honesty concepts have you used with your W? Did she know about the EA, and does she understand how easy a PA can happen? Have you done the questionnaires with her, or at least given her a list of the specific needs that you need met by her?

Have you told your W that you are admiring other women more than what is considered to be within normal parameters???

Karen

Hmmm... I like what Topie said about being honest with your wife. She needs to know that you are comparing her with other women and personally, I think that is so dangerous--in that it could push you toward another A before you could blink your eyes! You better really quit that--or either get a divorce first then do whatever you want to do--if you are looking for an excuse to leave. Why look for an excuse? If you don't want to be there, leave. Not MB-oriented I know, but you sound so miserable, you couldn't possibly be bringing positive energy home to your wife with this attitude??????

It sounds like you are trying to get your wife to want to change, but maybe if you concentrated on changing--or even asked your wife what 10 things about yourself she would like to see changed????

Perhaps she could write them down without discussing with you and you could just start working on yourself. Sometimes we want the other person to change but if we changed, it might make all the difference in how we perceive them?

It's worth a try since the only person you can change anyway is YOURSELF?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I say GO FOR IT!

And consider this, with all your wife's faults there are probably about 10 men out there who would take her just the way she is, and be GLAD to get her... They might be working on her as we speak!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

And don't presume that your darling wife can't sense your "wandering eye..." I can only speak for myself, but if my H had a wandering eye, I don't know if that would quite motivate me to change for him. We can tell when we are being compared to other women. I would bet that it comes out of your mouth occasionally too...

I do feel bad for you that you are unhappy with your wife and she doesn't seem to care, but WHY? Could it be the way you present your unhappiness to her? Making her think it is all her? To me, that's not really fair... I think we are responsible for our own attitude regardless of what happens to us.

Do you ever find ways to compliment your wife on what she IS doing right? At least she was volunteering, right? At least she participated? Isn't that worth noticing? Some people have a gift for serving (helps ministry) and maybe that is not your wife's strong point? Do you know what her strong points are and do you compliment her on those? Maybe if you focused on the strong points it could begin to bring out more of your wife's best qualities? Perhaps???

hi there wantlove,

well.....why dont u try to tell your wife that u are having a wandering eye?? Now i cant say that will work for sure...but it would be totally unfair to just decide to leave the relationship without giving her fair warning. I have a friend...whom was doing exactly what u are doing, however..his wife was a hard worker...VERY hard...pretty..nice body (even had 3 kids) but she was uncommunicative...not fun (shewas exhausted from working their place, kids, bills ect) he worked long hours and didtn see her much either....so when this gal really turned on the charm....he almost fell for it. HOwever, he did talk to my H who warned him going that directin would ruin his life more than he could imagine. so this man.....turned to his wife..and told her he was attracted to another woman and considering an affair...but the he loved her and NEEDED HER. she then realized what was happening even with herself...and they have been working on things!! things are better!! and he hasnt cheated!!

just a word from me,
blessings,
mercy

Hello everyone,

I have been really busy at work and haven't had the time to answer questions or comment on what everyone has said, but I do want to thank everyone for their comments and encouragement.

My wife and I went to counseling yesterday and I am just as frustrated as ever. I had a few minutes alone with him and he asked me if I had ever thought about separation. I have thought about it but I have to admit that I am torn between wanting to continue working on my marriage and considering separation. I told him that I felt that my wife would feel very rejected. To be completely honest if I ever had enough guts to do this I doubt I would ever go back. I also told him that I can't over the fear of seperation and/or divorce. I guess I am afraid of change also.

When my wife showed up, the counselor pointed out that in about 5 or 6 years we would have no children at home and we needed to plan for this time or else we were headed for divorce. I thought his use of the word "plan" was interesting since he knows my wife is very unwilling to change. He then talked about the possibility of me and my wife going back to school since we have talked about it before. My wife had to leave immediately after our session. While I was paying the co-pay the counselor told me that the reason he suggested my wife going back to school was that he has found that doing this has a tendency to "kick start" change in someone who is afraid of change.

After my wife and I had gone to bed she asked me what the counselor and I had talked about before she got there. I told her that I had told him that I was starting to feel like coming to counseling was pointless because my wife was still not aroused at all when we had sex and that she was still unwilling to make any changes in order to meet any of my needs. She then got upset at me that I am not happy with her having sex with me and continue to want her to be aroused and passionate. I told her that I needed to have sex be more that dutiful. I told her that I needed to feel wanted and desired in order for me to feel loved. I then told her that I have requested my needs to be met so that I feel loved. I tried to explain the concept of meeting each others needs so that we both feel loved again. She told me again that she felt that we needed to accept each other as we are.

Anyway thanks again for all of your comments and suggestions. I have a lot to think about.

I think that sweetannie said it very well when she said, "Sure the grass looks greener, gee, it really is greener, but it's not your grass." I have always felt very frustrated when someone would say that the grass only appears to be greener on the other side. I have always thought that the grass really is greener but as sweetannie pointed out it isn’t my grass and I guess I need to remember that.

Hmmm.... doesn't sound like your wife is afraid of change--it sounds like she REFUSES to change! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> not good...

It sounds like she is digging her own pit. I feel for you.

I used to say that to my H--BEFORE I discovered MB and did some serious soul-searching about myself and why I am the way I am and why I was the way I was.

When we say that--accept me like I am--it's an excuse not to change. It's also an excuse not to admit our own flaws. Maybe she won't even be able to see what is wrong with herself and her attitude until after she LOSES you! I hope not, but to me, it sounds like the road she is fast travelling. Hang in there! Prayer is effective when we are at the end of our rope. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Furthermore, I think you spelled out your SF needs in a very clear, very specific, non-LBing way. I thought that you sounded very well-spoken, open and honest in your answer. Her response was just simply outrageous. I hope she realizes she's on the verge of losing you? Maybe that should be your next topic of discussion???!!! Maybe she is responding to you this way because she is NOT afraid of losing you. Maybe that thought has not even occurred to her--that you would actually leave her and never look back? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That is EXACTLY how I landed here on MB!

Okay so maybe you could actually tell her that "because of her unwillingness to change her attitude toward sex or even explore the possibility of restoring passion to your intimate relationship and fill your needs in the way you want, that you are now beginning to find other women MORE and MORE attractive and thinking of leaving the marriage altogether." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

At least give her another reality to ponder that might expand her thinking on CHANGE a bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay so maybe you could actually tell her that "because of her unwillingness to change her attitude toward sex or even explore the possibility of restoring passion to your intimate relationship and fill your needs in the way you want, that you are now beginning to find other women MORE and MORE attractive and thinking of leaving the marriage altogether." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You wouldn't be lying if you said this... That is how you are feeling right?

BINthereDUNthat,

Thank you so much for your responses. (I see you enjoy sitting at the computer in the middle of the night. Can’t sleep?)

Yes you are correct my wife does REFUSE to change. But then on the other hand as pointed out in my “Takola, or anyone else, why it is wrong to want my wife to change?” post on the Emotional Needs forum I can’t make her change it has to be her choice. I just having a little bit (no a lot of) of a hard time accepting the fact that she refuses to change. I had a friend tell me once that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I guess I am a little insane. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for telling me that I spelled out my SF needs in a very clear, very specific, non-LBing way. I have tried very hard to not do any Love Busting. I think you are correct that she is NOT afraid of losing me. Interesting enough a year ago in June I told her that my needs were not being met and I knew that I wasn’t meeting her needs very well either. I was radically honest with her and spelled out everything including Attractive Spouse issues. I told her that we needed to make some changes or I felt like we needed to separate. Well guess what. Things improve substantially for several months. We were BOTH trying much harder to meet each other’s needs. Then about 6 months ago she shut down again. I guess it is time for some more radical honesty. To answer everyone’s unspoken question of did I stop meeting her needs? I will have to be honest as say that I may have some but it wasn’t a drastic change. For my wife it was almost like she couldn’t sustain the effort and just stopped.

To answer the question that findingmywayback had no I wouldn’t be lying if I told her that because of her unwillingness to change her attitude toward sex and my other unmet needs I am beginning to find other women more and more attractive and that I am thinking of leaving the marriage. My only trouble is I have been thinking this way for several years but I haven’t been able to get over the guilt of doing this or gain the courage to do it.

I guess this is what is called Plan B but how do you get the courage to actually follow through with it?

You see comments like this from Happy_Hus make me feel guilty about thinking about leaving.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Happy_Hus:
<strong>I want my client to award me more projects. I want my car to start when I leave work today. I want to go home tonight to a loving family all chearful and happy. And that's OK. I will do everything in MY power to achieve these "wants". I will do what I CAN.

But to make these "wants" conditions for my friendship, happiness or love would be stepping way outside my personal boundaries. Can you see the difference?

Another perspective...assuming you have kids.

How would you react if your son were to approach you and say "Daddy, I need more recreational companionship and WANT you to play ball with me twice a week from now on!"

How would you react? Can you think of a better way he could get your cooperation?

Lets imagine he further says "If you don't play ball with me I am going to run away and never love you again".

It is rather laughable when it is coming from a child. But coming from a spouse, that kind of "conditional" threat is not funny. It is just plain immature and disrespectful.

I doubt you ever expressed your wants or made threats to your W quite that directly. But I sensed this kind of overtone in the posts you have written in the past. I am sure it comes across at home to and your W has picked up on it. I suspect that her reaction to these overtones would be a loss of admiration for you and hence, a loss of "romantic" love. Without "romantic" feelings, love making is just a chore. If I understand you correctly, that is what you are really hoping to change. It is another case of "what goes around, comes around".

Does that make any sense?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy_Hus makes some very good points but then on the other hand I am having an increasing difficult time accepting the fact that my wife doesn't meet my needs very well. I also know that I am in danger of having an affair. I really enjoyed the little bit of attention and affection that I recieved from the woman I mentioned in my first post. If I were to ever meet a woman that really seemed to want me I know I would be in big trouble.

So back to my question. Is it time for Plan B and how do you get the courage to do it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong>

It sounds like you are trying to get your wife to want to change, but maybe if you concentrated on changing--or even asked your wife what 10 things about yourself she would like to see changed????

Perhaps she could write them down without discussing with you and you could just start working on yourself. Sometimes we want the other person to change but if we changed, it might make all the difference in how we perceive them?

It's worth a try since the only person you can change anyway is YOURSELF?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I say GO FOR IT!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But then on the other hand BINthereDUNthat has some good points about needing to work on improving myself also. This would be a good thing if I stay in my marriage or go to Plan B.

<small>[ August 16, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Want Love ]</small>

one little question here...

Does ur wife NOT want to change or does she not know HOW to change?? What is her past like? did she have good parents that gave her tools in which do do certain things in life? such as learn a new trade successfully? Has she always been aloof and unmeeting of your needs? how many childrne do u have and how old are they? Does your wife work? how much help are you to her or have u been to her in the household while the children were very little?

answer me theses questions and i may have more ideas.. see.. im sure her "love" and "compassion" didnt stop over night.. so there is other issues there ???

mercy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mercy:
<strong>one little question here...

Does your wife NOT want to change or does she not know HOW to change?? What is her past like? did she have good parents that gave her tools in which do do certain things in life? such as learn a new trade successfully? Has she always been aloof and unmeeting of your needs? how many childrne do u have and how old are they? Does your wife work? how much help are you to her or have u been to her in the household while the children were very little?

answer me theses questions and i may have more ideas.. see.. im sure her "love" and "compassion" didnt stop over night.. so there is other issues there ???

mercy</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you mercy for responding I will do my best to answer your questions.

Does your wife NOT want to change or does she not know HOW to change??
I think it is a combination of not wanting to change and not knowing how. It is my opinion that it is mostly she does not want to change. In fact I would put the ratio at 80 % or higher not wanting to change and 20% not knowing how. Whenever the subject is brought up she says she wants to be accepted for who she is, just the way she is.

What is her past like? did she have good parents that gave her tools in which to do certain things in life? such as learn a new trade successfully?
She grew up with one older sister and a younger brother. She feels like her brother and sister were loved more than she was. She feel picked on because she was the "middle child". No her parents did not give her the tools to do certain things in life such as learn a new trade successfully. In fact learning comes very difficult to her. Her father died in 1988. I get the feeling that her parents never had a great love for each other.

Has she always been aloof and unmeeting of your needs?
Yes she has always been aloof and not very willing to meet my needs. She seemed to be more willing to meet my needs before we were married. I was attracted to her because I felt comfortable with her and she was affectionate and we did get involved somewhat sexually before marriage. I married her with the illusion that she could meet my needs for touch and SF. She told me once that she would have done anything to get me to marry her. Early on in our marriage I discovered that she was not very willing to meet my needs regardless of whether they were SF, Domestic Support, Attractive Spouse etc. We have been to counseling 4 times during our marriage. Our first counselor told her that she felt like I just wanted to FEEL loved. This counselor was correct. I didn’t know about emotional needs back then but I knew that I didn’t FEEL very loved. My wife is a big believer in Unconditional Love.

how many children do u have and how old are they?
We have two children. Two boys. One is 21 and the other is 14.

Does your wife work?
My wife works part time when she feels like it.

how much help are you to her or have u been to her in the household while the children were very little?
I try to help now and when the children were young. I know this will sound like boosting but Saturday I did the dishes that hadn’t been done in several days even though I didn’t feel well. Sunday is my day to cook dinner. I cooked dinner for our family and my wife’s family that came to visit.

I will freely admit that over the years I have tried to get my wife to change. I have used very poor tactics and I have tried to use MB principles in the correct way. As pointed out earlier a counselor told my wife that I just wanted to FEEL loved. I know she wants that also. But as she pointed out once our needs are in direct conflict of each other. She wants to be accepted as she is I need to have my needs met which means she has to do something different than she is doing now. It is just so frustrating to have learned the MB principles of removing Love Busters and meeting each others needs so that we feel loved and not be able to discuss these concepts with my wife.

For two people to understand MB principles and apply them life would be Heaven on earth. The key is for BOTH people to understand and apply the MB principles. Can you imagine how happy two people could be if they BOTH removed Love Busters and BOTH did everything they could to meet each others needs? Yes of course this requires change. Both people need to do things differently. It is very discouraging to know and understand these principles and not have a willing and supportive partner. It is pretty pointless isn’t it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Want Love ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find myself seeing good qualities in women that I wish my wife had. I see women who are prettier, work harder, exercise, fun to be around, etc. etc. etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I know that my emotional needs are not being met and this is partially the cause of this frustration. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It drives me nuts to no end that how much work a woman does (eg. around the house) and whether she'll exercise lots with her H are being treated as emotional needs. I guess in a roundabout way they are, but my H, like you, is attracted to his female friends' abilities to be more efficient, work harder not longer, and exercise all the time with him. So in a long and even more roundabout way, because I don't do enough around the house, am inefficient, and don't really care to exercise very often, my H turned to spending large amounts of time with his female friends, stopped meeting my ENs and then I went off and had an affair with his BF.

Either make it clear to your wife that she is not meeting your needs, and be specific about them, and get her to work on them, or divorce her and then start seeking out a better woman. Quietly going on about life and not communicating with her can lead to a dysfunctional mess like I am in.

Why did you marry your wife in the first place? What did you love about her? Why did you marry her if she wasn't pretty enough, didn't work hard enough, didn't like exercise and wasn't much fun to be around? Or is this just a case of the grass is greener on the other side?

Sorry, I feel a heck of a lot like your wife. I'm sick of being told by my H that I'm not good enough for him (anymore). If this is true, why has he stayed for 12 years? He should've left a long time ago. Maybe I deserve the hell I'm in because I'm an inherently lazy person.

I'd somehow like to think that the value of a person is more than how much housework they do, how efficient they are at it and their job, and how much they exercise.

Maybe you and my H could be friends.

Sorry to vent at you. I'm not normally this cranky. Just offering my perspective. Good luck with your wife and your life.

Jen

Sorry, I'm an idiot, I didn't read all of the previous post before mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As pointed out earlier a counselor told my wife that I just wanted to FEEL loved. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H made me realize that by not cleaning the house often enough or exercising with him enough, that I didn't make him feel loved or appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She wants to be accepted as she is I need to have my needs met which means she has to do something different than she is doing now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess that's my problem. I want unconditional love. He wants his needs met. He already has found a couple of females who will meet them for him. I think I'm screwed, but I've been plan A-ing him ,and trying to change, and I'm about to start plan B.

Sorry for rambling and ranting today. My life has been turned upside down and I hate it here on the ceiling.

Jen

No Jen Brown you are not an idiot you are a frustrated and unhappy woman and I feel bad for you. After you vented at me a little I was curious and went and read some of your posts. I hope you and your husband will be able to work things out. Good luck!

As I mentioned before I think the key to a successful marriage is for both spouses to know, understand and apply MB concepts. Have you been able to share these concepts with your husband? You are trying to implement these principles and that is commendable.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Want Love ]</small>

Thanks for taking the time to read my other posts and for your kind words WantLove, I hope my H and I are able to work things out too.

Jen

good answers wantlove. Ofcourse im no therapist but i can say that from my point of view.. she has no tools in which to work with. Change frustrates her and she wants life as easy as it can be with no effort. POINTLESS. IF she isnt willing to change then what real options do u have?

I too have felt.. lvoe me for me.. or dont love me at all. HOwever, in my case, ive been emotionally abused all my life starting from my mother to my H. I dont know HOW to change.. i dont knw HOW to love him in the way he needs to be. WHY? because no one showed me love. or respect or trust.

As an adult i have learned a many things. HOwever, they have been learned by giant pitfalls and hurts. Sometimes people cant change because of their previous past/lives.

I know that my H and i are never in the same book.. never mind on the same page or even in the same sentence. so quite frankly... i give up.

So i guess i agree with you that in order for a marriage to work it needs to be 100%/100% each person striving for the same goal. so now that we all knwo this... what are oyu going to do about not having a full fledged affair because ur needs arent being met??

mercy