i'm having issues with forgiveness... my husband has forgiven me... i am truly grateful that he has... for the life of me i can't figure out why or how he's managed to find this forgiveness... i'm not so sure i would have been able to forgive him... he says i'm under estimating myself...

it's hard to imagine not hoping that the past was better... i haven't forgiven myself... it doesn't seem to be in the realm of possibilities...

how often is too often to say i'm sorry?... when does it loose it's credibility and start to sound like a broken record?...

i wish i could say that i don't know what got into me... it all seems so shallow to me at this point in time... the really sad thing about it is i know that there is something in my husband that's died and i killed it...

oaktown

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

oaktown:

Your H gave you forgiveness as a gift to you because he loves you. It is up to you whether you accept that forgiveness gracefully or otherwise.

You are NOT a bad person. You have NOT killed "something" in your H. I thought a part of me died when I found out about my W's A, but now I realize that what "died" was my blind trust in her. Blind anything isn't good. I can let that go any day. I am working on rebuilding my trust in her, but I'll never blindly trust anybody or anything again. I think of that as a growth thing for me. A postitive step in my own betterment.

Take care, and just be grateful for the gift of forgiveness your H has given you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Your H gave you forgiveness as a gift to you because he loves you. It is up to you whether you accept that forgiveness gracefully or otherwise.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long...

i want to accept my husband's gift with grace and move on... i want the wounds to heal... i'm not looking for perfection, i know there will always be a scar... but somehow i seem to be growing an ulcer...

intellectually i know that i've got to find a way to forgive/love me before this ulcer is going to heal... emotionally i have no clue where to begin...

my worry... my inability to heal this ulcer will to continue to grow until there is not enough good left to recover...

oaktown...

If your husband is like me he probably has some doubts about his forgiveness from time to time, just like you do. That is why saying you're sorry isn't a broken record. What helps me the most is when my ww is more specific about her apology, such as I am sorry for your anguish or sorry for putting you through this or sorry for being so foolish. I think it is kind of like when a bank robber says I am sorry for robbing the bank, you are not sure he will not rob another one, but when he says I am sorry with greater emphsasis on the nature of the wrong and its consequences you feel more comfortable about your decision to forgive and more secure about your future. I know my ww is sorry, only a monster would not be, but when she comprehends and describes what she has learned I feel safe and happy that I forgave her.
Let me ask you a question: What kind of things does your husband, or could your husband, say that would make you feel the best ? What do you like hearing from the man you betrayed that makes you believe his forgiveness is genuine ?

Jack


Jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jack218:
<strong>
Let me ask you a question: What kind of things does your husband, or could your husband, say that would make you feel the best ? What do you like hearing from the man you betrayed that makes you believe his forgiveness is genuine ?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jack&#8230;

i believe that my husband&#8217;s forgiveness is as genuine as it can be&#8230; i can&#8217;t figure out what criteria he used to arrive at forgiveness&#8230; perhaps it was simply that love was the criteria&#8230; i worry that he will wake up or come to his senses and realize that i was not worth forgiving/loving&#8230; i worry that my lack of ability to find peace will somehow infect him&#8230; if i can&#8217;t find a way to forgive/love me then why should i expect him to?&#8230;

oaktown&#8230;

Oaktown, I know EXACTLY how you feel. You want his forgiveness. You believe he truly forgives you. You count yourself lucky he loves you so deeply that he can forgive you. Then you remember that if you cannot forgive and/or like yourself then how can he, right? Wrong!!!!

I have been through this very thing. I have been in rebuilding for a little over a year now, and I still have a hard time liking myself. Heck, just this weekend at my sister's wedding when they were exchanging their vows, promising to forsake all others, I was hating myself. However, even though that part of the ceremony was heart wrenching for my husband, he still lovingly held my hand. Later he told me it was hard, and when I was on the verge of tears because I knew it was and I felt so awful, he said, "please don't cry, you look too beautiful to cry right now." We had a wonderful evening, and really enjoyed our dance together later.

Anyhow, know that your husband loves you to the truest form, and he is not afraid of it. In that he is able to forgive you and will always feel that way, no matter what happens. If he wanted to leave he would have already. Now, you know that you are human and that you have made a mistake and that you should accept forgiveness and then also forgive yourself. To error is human! Allow your error (please know I am not trying to label it lightly, as I know it is not) and learn from it.

I have to agree with what Jack said about the "sorry" thing. I don't think my husband gets too tired of it. I think the fact that I say it, and acknowledge why I am saying it illustrates the importance of it to me as well. Yes, he will doubt forgivness, but he will never retract it for deep in his heart he knows and feels his forgiveness to you. Relax here a minute and look deep in your heart - you feel it too.

Now, here is where others may feel differently, but it has helped me tremendously. It is OK to not like yourself right now. That DOES NOT change how your husband feels for you. As with myself, I'm sure that feeling isn't totally a constant, and as time and rebuilding progresses it will fade more and more. My DH and I had a talk about this one time and I was saying how I hurt because of what I had put him through. He asked what he could do to help me, and I replied "I just need to know it's ok to not like me!" He reached a hand out to me, gave a gentle smile and said, "it's ok." Then before I could say anthing else he added, "it's ok, but I still like you!" Those two statements made a world of difference. I stopped trying so hard to forgive and like ME out of fear that my DH couldn't possilbe feel these until I did, and I was able to continue the progress of rebuilding, knowing that when I hit a point that I don't like me that it's ok, because my DH still does. It helps a lot.

I hope this helps you some. I wish you the best. Remember, don't try to MAKE things happen, ALLOW them to. I know it will take a long time for me to really like myself again, but I can live with that for now. See when things are really right in my M, that is when I believe I will again like myself.

Take care, and good luck to you. Sorry I got so wordy.

Good thoughts, all, but I remain curious as to the things ww's want and need to hear, what can a betrayed husband say to make them feel better ? Or is it best never to mention anything about it ever again ?

Jack

princess...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Princess0413:
<strong>Oaktown, I know EXACTLY how you feel. You want his forgiveness. You believe he truly forgives you. You count yourself lucky he loves you so deeply that he can forgive you. Then you remember that if you cannot forgive and/or like yourself then how can he, right? Wrong!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes!!! you have hit the nail on the head... you do know exactly how i'm feeling...

this lack of self forgiveness/love comes up for me all the time... whenever my husband introduces me to someone as his wife inside i just want to die... i feel as though the scarlet "A" is written all over my face...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Anyhow, know that your husband loves you to the truest form, and he is not afraid of it. In that he is able to forgive you and will always feel that way, no matter what happens.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i wonder if my husband looks at his friends and wonders why they have a faithful wife and he doesn't... i wonder if he regrets marrying me... i can't shake the feeling that my husband deserves to have a better wife/life...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Now, you know that you are human and that you have made a mistake and that you should accept forgiveness and then also forgive yourself. To error is human! Allow your error.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if i forgive myself i might forget the lessons learned and history has a chance to repeat itself... this can not happen... maybe i'm over reacting, but i would much rather pull that scab off every morning if that what it takes to remain affair free...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I hope this helps you some. I wish you the best. Remember, don't try to MAKE things happen, ALLOW them to. I know it will take a long time for me to really like myself again, but I can live with that for now. See when things are really right in my M, that is when I believe I will again like myself.

Take care, and good luck to you. Sorry I got so wordy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this has been very helpful... there's nothing like having someone validate my feelings... i'm sure it's going to take me a long time to feel right about myself also... i wish i knew how long... i do so much better when i know whether the light at the end of the tunnel is real or if it's the train...

oaktown...

"... whenever my husband introduces me to someone as his wife inside i just want to die... i feel as though the scarlet "A" is written all over my face..."

No, you do not have the scarlet "A" on you. I once felt like I should have it on me, but we do not and like my DH, I am certain your DH does not desire that either. He loves you as his wife; and he sees you as his wife, not as his adulterous wife, but simply as his wife.

"i wonder if my husband looks at his friends and wonders why they have a faithful wife and he doesn't..."

Maybe, maybe not, but be honest - don't you look at others and wonder why it was you who had to cheat? I know I do. It's only natural, but it doesn't mean they feel any less for or about you. Sure, we all wish it hadn't happened, and it's only natural to look at others and SOMETIMES think about it, but it doesn't mean he wishes you weren't his wife, he only wishes the same things you wish.

"i wonder if he regrets marrying me... i can't shake the feeling that my husband deserves to have a better wife/life..."

Know what, he doesn't feel that way. He doesn't want a better wife, he wants you to be a better you and to be his wife. As a WS you can agree that you desire to be a better you. I have been in that position. It doesn't mean he regrets marrying you. Not at all! He may regret some of your decisions, but he doesn't regret you. He loves you, don't be afraid to see that.

"if i forgive myself i might forget the lessons learned and history has a chance to repeat itself... this can not happen... maybe i'm over reacting, but i would much rather pull that scab off every morning if that what it takes to remain affair free..."

My dear, no matter how well you "forgive" yourself, I promise you will never fully forget. Forgiving and forgetting are two different things. Just because you forgive does not mean you have to forget. Plus, you don't have to push yourself to forgive, just allow it to happen with time, as your marriage heals. I don't think I am even able to fully say I "forgive" myself. Let your husband know how you feel about this. Explain to him what you think on it so that he can understand how deep your remourse goes. Plus, he will then be able to help you be comforted in your feelings. Even if it is to only give you a hug when you are down.

I don't know why everyone feels that forgivness of self is a must to proceed with rebuilding. I don't think it is. Allow yourself to feel, as it is your right. Don't bash yourself, but accept it. Then allow it to take its course. As your relationship heals and grows you will find that the forgivness of yourself seems closer than you would have ever believed. I can see it, I'm not there yet, but I can see it, and I'm not rushing either. Plus, remember that if you forgive, it does not mean you have to forget. Time will teach you how to balance the two. Don't be afraid of forgiving yourself, but don't feel the need to rush it.

"... i'm sure it's going to take me a long time to feel right about myself also... i wish i knew how long... i do so much better when i know whether the light at the end of the tunnel is real or if it's the train..."

Don't concentrate on the how long, just take it a day at a time and "allow" it to happen. Allowing over making is the key. Oh, and just so you know, the light is real and well worth the work to getting there. Take care! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think you should be really proud of yourself because you have taken responsibility for the affair, accepted it was wrong and hurtful, and have done a lot to repair your marriage!

There are so many BS here who would LOVE to have a spouse like you! We are waiting for the day!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I never thought before coming to this site that an affair CAN make a marriage stronger. In the sense that both parties willing to work, take responsibility, etc, etc. It makes sense, though, a WS realizing the true value of the marriage and by their experiences in the affair, take steps to ensure it will never happen again. And then the BS can understand what the WS was missing, and work on that too.

Excellent advise Princess.

oaktown,

I can tell you have a very good, conscientious heart or you wouldn't be so hard on yourself. But let me point something out to you. You have a HIGHER STANDARD than God for forgiveness. If you have asked God for forgiveness, he has already forgiven and forgotten, yet YOU are hanging onto this.

There is no purpose, other than a very destructive one, to continue beating yourself up over this. There is no virtue in beating yourself up. You have met all the standards of forgiveness required by God; when will you meet yours? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jack218:
<strong>Good thoughts, all, but I remain curious as to the things ww's want and need to hear, what can a betrayed husband say to make them feel better ? Or is it best never to mention anything about it ever again ?

Jack</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jack...

sorry for the delay... i've been thinking about your question... realistically i don't know that there is anything that my husband can do or say to make it better... the only thing that will really help is time... that said...

i think that it would be burying our heads in the sand if i never heard anything about my affair from my husband... i would very much like to know what my husband is thinking/feeling about it and how often it's coming up for him...

needless to say i can only answer for myself but specifically i would like:

- to know that he's staying with me for me and not just because of familial obligations...
- is there anything the i can do to help restore that which i have destroyed within him...
- is he happy...
- does he regret marrying me...
- does he feel that he deserves a better wife/life...
- why couldn't he hear me before...
- what he really thinks/feels about me and why...
- i want him to ask me about my feelings...

hope that helps you... it helped me...

oaktown...

princess:...thank you for your words and empathy... i think i’m with you on the intellectual plane... on the emotional plane i don’t even know where to begin... unfortunately everything about the affair is emotional for me... if i had been using any of my intellect i’m sure the outcome would have been different...

libbie:...i never thought i would be in the position of being proud of myself because i was taking responsibility for an affair... true irony...

melodylane:... can it be so simple... i just need to find a way to ask myself to forgive myself... you’ve given me something to think about...

Oaktown,

You have received very good advice. You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> wonder if my husband looks at his friends and wonders why they have a faithful wife and he doesn't... i wonder if he regrets marrying me... i can't shake the feeling that my husband deserves to have a better wife/life... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H deserves to have the wife he wants and he has selected YOU. You are the wife he deserves, more than you realize. You made a bad decision and it hurt him deeply, but that doesn't mean you are a bad woman. It is clear he thinks in fact that you are a good woman and the one he wants as his wife.

If you want to help your H and have him help you by opening up. Why not ask him how he is doing? If he does think about it? Is there something you can do?

The most successful WS's I have seen on this site brought up the affair and inquired of their spouse about how they were doing, without the spouse bringing it up. As you do this I think you will learn many things and one of them is that your H did survive this and he still loves you. He will never forget and neither will you, but the pain will go, and the only person holding on to the affair will be YOU. That is why it is time you begain to forgive yourself. That doesn't mean you cannot say you are sorry, it means that you have stopped hurting yourself and beating yourself up.

You are doing well Oaktown, this too will pass.

God Bless,

JL

Prin:

"Later he told me it was hard, and when I was on the verge of tears because I knew it was and I felt so awful, he said, "please don't cry, you look too beautiful to cry right now." We had a wonderful evening, and really enjoyed our dance together later."

Now you got ol' 2long crying again!!! This was very sweet (and that's something, coming from a 250lb bearded scientist! and that's AFTER the "benefits" of the infidelity diet! - 35lbs lighter than before!)

I love my W, regardless of what she's done in the past, oaktown. I know how your H can feel that way toward you. I realize that my sitch is far from "solved" but if anything will get us through this, it's love and forgiveness. Nothing is more important to me right now.

Hi Oaktown,

I am the BS and chose to forgive my husband 5 months ago, I still do not know the exact reason why i chose to, except the day i found out, among all the anger and disgust, I truly truly loved this man and could not imagine my life without him. Since then we have been on a roller coaster, but the end result is this: He has tried to forget it ever happened, and forget her completely, since he can't do either (He has had no communication with her since I found out), then he is wrong and needs to leave, so this weekend he is moving out. He says he still loves me a lot and is in love with me but he cannot live with what he did and still having feelings for her, when i hear all of your stories and you are all working out your problems i get very angry that my husband has chosen this route. He is a closed book and doesn't know how to deal with things-finds it easier to just not deal with it. I am supporting his decision (for the most part), becuase i am hoping that time on his own will heal his wounds, and I will make sure every day he knows i love him. I am trying to get him on this site to read all these amazing stories and realize that he is not this horrible person who deserves to be alone and punished, that what he did is forgivable (although at one time in my life I didn't think it was), i am afraid to watch him leave and then just shut down....

Sorry for going off on my scenario, but don't question why your husband is forgiving you, because he may only be able to say because he loves you, there is obviously this deep feeling of love for you that makes this bearable, you are doing right by letting him know you are sorry, and at some point that will not be needed as much, you will not need to be constantly reminding yourselves that you did this and you are sorry. Jut remind him why you love HIM, and are with HIM, he may need that more now than before the A. Hang in there.....Any advice you give would be great-I posted under "can you repair after an affair...."

Take care

oaktown, I am the BS, and I would like to let you know how *I* would answer these questions if my WW was to ask them of me...

- to know that he's staying with me for me and not just because of familial obligations...

I am staying with you for you. (FYI, even if it is for familial obligations, that is NOT a bad reason...)

- is there anything the i can do to help restore that which i have destroyed within him...

Be there for me from now on. Do not hide your feelings. Let me know that I am number one with you.

- is he happy...

Yes. You are back.

- does he regret marrying me...

No.

- does he feel that he deserves a better wife/life...

No way. If I did, I had every excuse to leave.

- why couldn't he hear me before...

We are men. Men listen/communicate very differently than women. Read the Mars/Venus book.

- what he really thinks/feels about me and why...

I share the blame in creating the situation where you felt like leaving the marriage. I feel terrible guilt about it. I love you so much that I can forgive anything. I hope you can forgive me of the pain I caused you.

- i want him to ask me about my feelings...

Have *him* read the Mars/Venus book. Men don't give a darn about each other's feelings, in fact, we go out of our way to rag each other. It is unnatural for us to discuss feelings. I really had to come to understand women alot better to be able to do this. You see, when women discuss their feelings, that is an end unto itself. Men want to 'fix' whatever is wrong, and that frustrates women.

I will be a very happy man once my WW gets to your stage in recovery. Your H is very lucky that you 'get it.'

ST

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>The most successful WS's I have seen on this site brought up the affair and inquired of their spouse about how they were doing, without the spouse bringing it up. As you do this I think you will learn many things and one of them is that your H did survive this and he still loves you. He will never forget and neither will you, but the pain will go, and the only person holding on to the affair will be YOU. That is why it is time you begain to forgive yourself. That doesn't mean you cannot say you are sorry, it means that you have stopped hurting yourself and beating yourself up.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">just learning...

other than with my husband this forum (you kind folks here at mb) is the only place i have available to talk and process my affair related feelings... here is the problem... i&#8217;m ready willing and able to discuss the affair... my husband is not...

talking is how i usually process life... just ask my girlfriends, they know everything about my life except for the affair... my husband wants it to stay between us... no one else knows... personally, i find this to be a big burden... there&#8217;s no one to talk to... i probably should post here more but he know i come here, he knows my id and he calls it my latest addiction so i try to stay away from posting... it&#8217;s just when the pressure builds up like now that i post here (i read plenty)...

so if one of my top needs is for conversation and the person that i want/need to talk to doesn&#8217;t want to talk what am i to do... i want to get to the forgiveness stage... i need to be able to talk freely about my feelings regarding the affair to get there... he doesn&#8217;t want to hear about it any more... i can&#8217;t seem to find a way...

some here have suggested counseling... my husband does not think it&#8217;s a good idea... i&#8217;m not sold on it myself... what i need is my husband to process this with me...

oaktown...

Oaktown,

Great list, my answers are much the same as SadTiger's. I'm thinking of starting a separate thread on the this, sort of a list kind of thing, like the top 40 things your ww would appreciate hearing, and maybe the top 40 things she would not appreciate hearing. What do you think ?

Jack