As a BS I know precisely what was the most painful part of H's last affair for ME.

I need to know what all WS think it would most likely be. I'm trying to get a better understanding of your perceptions/assumptions before I ever speak to my H about it.

I need replies whether you are currently in an affair, have ended it but in withdrawl, or in full recovery, just tell me what stage you are in please.

When I get a few replies, I'll come back and let you know what it is. Aso I may have a few questions.

Thanks, Replaced

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Replaced ]</small>

Hi Replaced - I have a unique view of this, inas I have taken the time to talk with my husband about this. My DH has told me that the most painful part of it all was all the lies and deception.

At one time I would have guessed the sleeping with someone else. However, as I know that hurts, I can see why he feels the lies to be the most hurtful.

I don't know how much this will help, but I do hope others chime in and you find what you are looking for in the way of help. If there is anything else I can offer, please ask. My best to you.

Princess,

"I have taken the time to talk to my husband about this"

What a wise and loving person you are! Your H is a lucky man, sounds as if you really care about helping him heal.

I may not get anymore replys, so I'll go ahead and say what was the most painful part for me. It was the CONTINUED CONTACT. Discovery was easy by comparison.

An A is bad enough. Discovery is very painful. Continued contact was the most cruel act imaginable! 2 years later there is limited(hopefully) contact thru work. Still hurts like he## as H makes NO attempt to avoid this woman.

Replaced

Replaced

I am in withdrawal, and even though sometimes I physically ache I miss OM so much, pretty much as soon as D-Day happened, contact with OM stopped. I have said on a number of posts I cannot believe the cruelty that WS show by continuing the A - if the A is that important for you both, go and do it, but don't keep treated your BS as a muppet!!! Sorry, but I really can't understand how people can continue to be so selfish and hurtful. Sure I was when it was going on, but I would never, could never continue with H knowing. Hope that makes you feel a little better that some of us WS are not complete and utter fruitcases!

For my H, I think it was the physical aspect of the A that has hurt him the most and along with S the intimacy that goes with that. Interestingly, he was also really hurt by my friends supporting me (he read their e-mail communication with me and that was how he found out). He felt like a bit part player in his own life, and finds it very hard to respect/forigve/have anything to do with them, because of their lack of support for him as a human being with feelings. I believe they just supported me and what I told them, because I am their friend. But it bothers H...

I hope this helps some.
Lisa

Where to begin? There is so much that is painful about an A. My H and I have talked on several occassions about those things. He has listed several things to me during these conversations.

What is MOST painful? I guess I would have to say the lack of respect having an A shows. I say this only because that seems to be all- encompassing of the other things he has said. And I would totally agree with him. Just that act of having an A shows lack of respect for him, for myself, for our family, and for our marriage.

I should also say that I am a FWS. The A was dying when my H found out so it was not difficult for me to cut off contact. And maybe I am being judgemental but I, like Lisa in London, do not understand how a WS could continue contact. However, that said, just a couple of years ago, I did not understand how someone could get themselves involved in an A.

So, that is my long winded way of saying that I am not in withdrawal. Nor have I ever been. Am I in recovery? I think so. I am doing much better and my relationship with my H is in a better place. If that is recovery, then we are doing well.

Replaced...have you talked to your H about how much it hurts you that he still sees the OW? If so, what was his reply?

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:06 AM: Message edited by: Regretting ]</small>

I have to say it's the secrecy and deceit. Part of our problem: I always figured she'd have an affair. It's like I planned it for her. But, when she finally did, she did it very skillfully and manipulated my own thought processes to make me think I was being paranoid. Had I followed my instincts, I would have confronted her much earlier on and perhaps we wouldn't be in this quandry. We'd be well and truly recovered.
And, with her latest A, I facilitated by allowing the OM to be a friend of the family. Again, I resisted what I had come to believe was paranoia and relied on her judgment. Bad move. Her judgment has been clouded by years of neglect on my part.
It hurts to think of the things she must have done, certainly, and while we are moving on -- in fits and starts -- I still have those moments when I reach out to touch her and see him touching her instead. Still, in general, I'd have to say it was her ability to lie, deceive and convince me that I was paranoid. Very creepy.

Of course, it helps if I read the entire question! I answered from the BS point of view. But, I also have the WS view, as I are one also: It's the lying. There were times when the A was just so intense that nothing made me feel guilty. Then, looking in her eyes and trying to mask what was an overwhelming guilt rising in my heart, I realized I'd sold my soul for a night or two of passion. But, despite that chilling feel in my soul, I'd turn to the computer to send another email, or use the phone card to make a call. It was a disease, an addiction, and there was so much shame.
And this -- the sudden realization that everything I looked for has been here all along. And I am periously close to losing it all because of my own negligence. Sad.

I have a VERY unique view on this. I was a WS a year ago and then became the BS as my W became the WW. If every man/woman can feel the hurt he/she inflicts on their spouse, they would NEVER do it again. When my W asks me how can she trust me again, I tell her that I know first hand the pain I inflicted and would file for D before I EVER did that again. Then I also tell her that she can trust me as much as I can trust her.

Replaced,

Although he felt guilty every time he did it, he continued doing it. "It was no fun and game" was his comment, also "I thought that if I was careful you would never find out and I would not hurt you". He only said that he's sorry he hurt me. Of course, that did not happen until he was out of the "fog" some time after I discovered his continued e-mail contacts and he decided to send her a NC letter at my suggestion.

Lisa,

To me, ending contact shows empathy, compassion, and respect for your H, especially right after Dday. I have never experienced what you are experiencing, but I can imagine that it takes courage and maturity. You are not a fruitcase!

Regretting,

About a year ago I heard OW's voice in the background while on the phone with H. I asked who was there, he replied OW doing computer update. He said "so do you have a PROBLEM with that?" I answered "well yes it bothers me". His answer was, "well I guess that's YOUR problem!" Nasty!!! He was a real jerk! Have no clue what is going on currently. One day soon I will post an update (it is very complicated).

Chorus,

Wondering, did your wife say the lying was the worst part of your betrayal of her, or are you assuming that? I hope you can recover, can you relate to each others pain since you both made the same mistake?

Replaced

doogie,

"would file for D before I EVER did that again." This is what I need to hear from H. It shows the utmost love and respect for ones spouse.

Decue,

H also said he was sorry he hurt me but continues contact to this day, it's just that I dont know what KIND of contact. I will have to elaborate later.

TO ALL.....

I appreciate all these replies. As I said earlier, the thing that bothers me most as a BS is knowing that there is ANY kind of continued contact. This has hurt me more than ANYTHING about H's A. The empathy is not there. More later.

Replaced

As a BS, I thought I'd chime in and say that the lies and deceit, and what they do to the M and R are what hurt the most.

Replaced,

Even though you were asking for WS answers, I wanted to chime in here as a BS. I have not seen anyone mention what I am about to.

When I first discovered the WW's A, I was devastated to say the least. After the initial shock wore off after a few days, I began to try to sort all of this out.

I began to think that even during the A, the WW and I still enjoyed the aspects of marriage. I felt that by her being with both of us, and the WW and I with no children, there must have been some feelings towards me. I surmised this by her staying in the M for over 2 years of the A.

That alone made me willing to try to work it out with her. I still felt the sense that she wanted me as a part of her life, somewhere and somehow.

But...after the A was when my intense pain began. About 1 month after D-day, my WW filed for Dv. I was needless to say devastated again. But still somewhat hopeful for reconciliation. Then she did something that I should have recognized as a possibility, but didn't.

She dropped me like a hot potato, and went running to OM. I had no one. Understandably, I was needing support and comfort. If it hadn't been for my family, and a couple of sister's in particular, I don't know how I would have survived it. Still, though, my first instinct was to subconsciously want to be with the one who I held closest to my heart, which was the WW. It was then I actually realized just how far her heart was from mine, and just how she could desert me and my feelings.

So...in essence...during the A, I still felt as though she was still making me a part of her life, somehow. Afterwards, I felt as though I really became NOTHING to her.

That, was the beginning of suffering and pain that I never knew existed.

HCII

Hello Replaced, I don't mean to steal your thread since I am a BS and cannot respond to your question from the perspective of a WS. However, I had to reply to HCII's post since the last several sentences hit home so deeply.

For all of you WS's who are reading this thread or perhaps strive to ignore the reality of the situation, HCII says it extremely well:

"Afterwards, I felt as though I really became NOTHING to her. That, was the beginning of suffering and pain that I never knew existed."

Yes, HCII, this pain cannot be put into words. Thank-you for saying it so justly.

I also am a BS. But I felt I had to intervene as well because after my WWXH had told me about his affair he told me that he was going to go to her house and break things off w/ her. Each time he did it he would come home and tell me "it was over between them". Of course, only to find out that he had lied each time.

Even when he asked me for the divorce, these are his exact words, "I want a divorce only because I would like to have a new beginning w/ you later on when you can get over the past." At the time I was like in total shock and I asked him "what past?" He says to me "the affair." Keep in mind, at this time he was still seeing her. I just started laughing because I was so angry (putting it mildly). I looked at him and asked him if he felt that marriage and having a family was just a game to him?

Well, needless to say. I never got over the so-called past and he to this day 2 1/2 yrs. later is still seeing the OW. And I am now the XW. The XW he feels he wants to be friends with and still wants to come over and have sex with whenever he gets the urge. You talk about disrespect. He has even just lately told me that he still loves me. I do not reply to him because I feel like he's from another world. There is no respect there for me at all.

So, I would have to say the lack of respect is what continues to bother me the most. I've just completed my 4th day of not speaking to him and I feel like I have some self-respect.

doggie,

Unfortunately that is not how it often works.

"I was a WS a year ago and then became the BS as my W became the WW. If every man/woman can feel the hurt he/she inflicts on their spouse, they would NEVER do it again."

This can be turned around to say that since a BS has felt that pain, they would never have an affair. Unfortunately that is not how it works most of the time. According to my counselor, most BS's go on to have an affair of their own. My husband's first two wife's has affairs and left him for the OM. Yet, my husband, even after all the pain he went through as a 2x BS turned around and did it to me. Take a look at my signature block.

Unfortunately, having experienced the pain is no safety net. Some times people just crack and act out of character. If they are lucky they heal and find themselves again.

"Then I also tell her that she can trust me as much as I can trust her."

Sounds like a challenge.

In my previous marriage: The lying, deceit and disrespect. And yes the feeling that I meant nothing to him. Like I was being thrown away.

In this marriage: The lying, deceit and disrespect. This is a significant loss of intimacy in a relationship. It took me some time before I realized that STL (my husband) was not throwing me away, that I meant something to him. I think that is the surprise about it all to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For all of you WS's who are reading this thread or perhaps strive to ignore the reality of the situation, HCII says it extremely well:

"Afterwards, I felt as though I really became NOTHING to her. That, was the beginning of suffering and pain that I never knew existed."

Yes, HCII, this pain cannot be put into words. Thank-you for saying it so justly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Terrified,

Thanks. It truly makes me glad to know that I am not alone in this feeling. I think that Replaced is feeling actually the same thing, when she says that the continued contact is the worst. Basically, that is the thing that really, really go to me. Especially since it was ALL him, and ZERO me.

Let me throw this out there for some discussion. I don't want to hijack your thread, Replaced, but want to ask this.

Has any BS ever thought this: That one of the reasons that the rejection after the affair, such as in mine, Terrified, and Replaced's situation, is so grave, is because we are so in love that the person that has hurt us immensely is the VERY SAME one that we are accustomed to go to in order to help us with our pain?

In other words, when I encountered any difficult time in my life, I always wanted the WW there instead of anyone. I know that it should be that way, but that option is not there when the WS rejects us. Sort of an extreme Catch-22.

I can think back to my younger days, and can remember times involving younger relatives, when they got a small spanking for wrong behavior. I can then remember that after the spanking the child would immediately go to the parent that did the spanking for comfort. Is that what we do when we discover the A? Have a strong desire to run to the very same person that hurt us for comfort? Then, we discover that our "usual" cushion is no longer there and has rejected us?

I can honestly say that I have felt this way in my sitch. Probably one of the factors in my WW's actions that caused me such great hurt. Not only was I going through the most difficult time of my life, but now the one person that I desperately needed was no longer there. The fact that they were the one to cause the pain was, I think, not as large of a factor as they wanted NOTHING to do with it. Probably why I felt like nothing to her.

What are other's thoughts about this?

HCII

Space,

"the lies and deceit"

A mistake is one thing....but after Dday??? CONTINUED lies and deceit??? CONTINUED contact??? This is the point I am trying to focus on for the WS to think hard about. More and more I am seeing the logic in Plan B. Certainly not as a manipulation to get WS to come running home with their tale between their legs, but to protect our remnants of love for them, and for our own emotional well being and dignity.

I just dont get why WS does not care enough about OUR feelings to either STOP IT or D us. I'm not really sure if this is ALWAYS FOG or sometimes a very real character flaw?

Replaced

hcii and terrified,

I have had to come to terms with a very real possibility. That my interpretations of H's A's may be wrong. That he may not in reality VALUE me, our marriage, my love for him. This may have nothing to do with me, or state of our marriage before the A's.

There is a difference between being treated like nothing during a period of "fog", and being treated like nothing as a way of life.

I assumed H loved me with the same depth that I love him. I assume that he will comfort me after hurting me in the same way I would comfort him. When we get kicked in the teeth by an A and then abandoned further, we have every reason to feel like nothing.

If I determine at some point that H is going to continue to treat me like nothing, it will be over.

Replaced