WH and i just had another talk, the first one was august 18. I got the same answers as the first talk. Doesnt love me anymore, there is nothing there. I asked him to try to make things work , he replyed, there is nothing to work out, when there is nothing there. What now, what is my next step, what do i do, i am so confused i dont know what i am supposed to do next. He said he felt like he was living in a phoney house, with all this pretending going on. Kids dont know anything. Please someone help me, it hurts so badly. A/C0810
WH..46
BS..45
Married 17 yrs, together 19
2 kids ...13 and 15
D-Day...July 25,2002
OW left town Aug.7,2002(went back to where she lived , she was on holidays here, is planning a visit here in Dec.2002, which husband says he will be seeing her then), WH and OW are continuing A through the computer for now.

I am so sorry you are going though this. I know how much you must be hurting. I remember the pain I felt when my FWH told me he didn't think he wanted our marriage anymore. The one thing you have going for you is that the ow is not near. You have from now until Dec. to do the best plan A you can. Remember plan A is more for you then him. If it helps get the marriage back all the better, but its more for you to feel better about yourself and to be able to move forward with your life. With or without your husband. Show him the wonderful person you are, inside and out. Let him know that you are going to make it and what ever you do don't make the mistake I made in the beginning by pleading with him to stay. I sometimes think that it takes our WS seeing us ready to move on with our lives for them to realize that they really don't want to loss us. I found that once I told my FWH that I didn't care if he stayed or left that one way or another I was going to be just fine he finally ended all contact with the ow and made a re-newed commitment to our marriage. I know it seems as if your whole world is turning upside down and everything you believed in has been broken. We all understand what you are going though and I know I remember all to well the pain and wish I had the answer that would end all the pain you are feeling. Just remember to do things for you. Go out with friends and your kids. When you do things with the kids ask your h if he wants to go as a family, if he doesn't he is the one missing out. Read as much as you can, on this site and a few others you will find some great books you can get. They will help more then you can guess. Just take it one day at a time. Good luck. Let us know how you are doing. I hope this helps a little. ellyn

I just wanted to remind you that you cannot change your H's behaviour (actions), only your own actions. Ideally, your H will notice, and then follow suit. Either way, you'll end up being the best person you can be. That's all that matters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh yes, as ellyn suggests... stay away from the begging your H back. It only takes steps backwards to have 'relationship talks' with your H now. They are MEGA LB's!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And as far as your kids not knowing anything... I would bet that they know a lot more than they're letting on. At the very least they know that you and H aren't very happy right now. Do them a favour and acknowledge that, and tell them that it has NOTHING to do with them.

Finally... every time you feel the urge to vent out (LB) to your H (or talk relationship talk)... just come on here, or write it in a journal. It's important to get those feelings out. Unfortunately, your H won't "get it" for a while yet. So there's no use in wasting that energy on him (it'll assist in those backwards steps that you want to avoid).

Take care,
Karen

A/Co,
I agree with Ellyn & Topie, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. He's still in the house, the OW is not physically around, this is the time to be the best wife and companion possible. I know it is difficult when the WS is distant, can't seem to believe that you could ever have good times, maybe doesn't, for the moment, recall that there were good times.

Your story reminds me a lot of our first bad months, except my H worked with the OW. But, he also had to deal with her...the computer aids that "fantasy" that the OW can do no wrong.

I'd also recommend you go to a counselor, alone if your H won't go with you. One that believes in marriages. Steve & Jennifer Harley offer phone counseling through this site. I was very fortunate to find a Christian counselor that was a life & sanity saver for me.

Some marriages do come through this...it takes time, love, patience to keep yourself at the point where reconciliation is a possibility for you, if your H or the OW would end the A.

If your H won't do stuff with you, continue to do family things with your teenagers, and support their activities. My kids were 10 & 13 the first time we separated, 12 & 15 when we began recovery 2+ years ago. I did a lot with my kids...and my H, though he didn't always think he loved me, did love his family times. He often came along when I invited him for specific things, even when we were separated. The OW can't give that same sense of a family unit to your H. Especially with teenagers, their loyalty is hard-won and it's difficult for a new person to be with dad and be welcome, more difficult when the new person is the reason their mom & dad aren't together.

I'm not suggesting you tell your kids, but if you aren't careful, they will piece together parts of conversations & information until they know much more than you think. And, they are probably scared and/or angry if their Dad's attitude has taken a big change. Give them lots of extra love and whatever sense of safety you can.

Do be careful of lovebusters, this is a good place to come when you are at your wit's end.

Not anything to add to what IMO is already good advice. Just wanted you to know I am watching your posts and hoping the best for you. Hang in there.
Take care,
S-

Hello to all of you who answered my post. Thank you so much, i am so scared right now my heart is pounding. I have read Plan A over and over and over. I dont know how long i can stand him treating me like a room-mate or friend. He doesnt touch me or allow me to touch him. How do you gals live with that when it hurts so badly. I am so lonely for him i can hardly stand it anymore. I am gonna go and read Plan A again, but could someone please give me Plan A in their version, maybee i could understand it better. I know i should go out and have fun, but i just cant, i have tried, i go out with the kids or a friend, and i am just sick and miserable, and cant wait to get back home. How long should i go on with this Plan A. Also you said no more relationship talks, doesnt that make the problem get worse, seems like we are trying to bury it. Because i did refrain from talking about the relationship for 3 weeks. When you say relationship talks, do you mean talking about any of it , the marriage, the OW, the not loving me anymore, etc, etc. All that should stop? I am so mixed up...A/C0810

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A/C0810:
<strong>When you say relationship talks, do you mean talking about any of it , the marriage, the OW, the not loving me anymore, etc, etc. All that should stop?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No matter what you tell your H right now about relationships, all he'll hear is, "nag nag nag". It will cause major love bank withdrawals, and you have to try and build up that account with him again.

The 'being happy' thing is SO HARD to do when you're not. And it will take some time before it really does happen. You need to "get over" (in reality, "go through") the initial shock of this whole A mess first.

To plan A yourself, start with the little things. Perhaps make a list up of all of the things you've been wanting to do for a long time now. Big or small. It doesn't matter. But the smaller ones are easier goals to attain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> For example: do you want to learn how to play guitar? Why not sign up for a class at your local community centre? Have you been itching to repaint or redecorate anywhere in your house? The bathroom is a good small room to start with. If you can't afford much... then how about just rearranging the house? The living room is usually the most fun (and couches can take a good beating to let out frustration).

Eventually, once you've come in touch with yourself more, you'll be able to work on your actions more too. You can reflect upon past conversations with your H, where he may have told you that you do certain things that bother him. I used to scrape my front teeth on utensils when eating hot foods. My H HATED that with a passion. I didn't think it mattered much.. but you know what? It was just one of those little things that added up to love bank withdrawals. So I made a conscious effort to stop it.

Plan A is about YOU. It is about making you the best darn you you can be!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It means avoiding Love Busters. It means no relationship talks (with H). It means you can be happy again too!!! Plan A is about ACTIONS, not words. Only you can change your own behaviour. Ideally, your H will notice these changes in you, and will follow suit. TIME, PATIENCE, CONSISTENCY... should be your motto.

We're here for you to help you through this. Let us know how you're doing. Remember... baby steps. That's all you need to do. This is not a sprint. It's a marathon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Karen

((((A/C)))..You can't eat,you can't sleep..the only thing on your mind is MY,God, How can this BE!!For the first time in your life,the kids take a backseat to what is in your head...Yup, been there ,done that...It WILL get better but you have some work to do first..YOU,not your H.

I had to separate myself emotionally from my H,not to mention physically.The emotional was a good thing , the physical was a mistake. While we were separated, he had unlimited 24/7 access to the computer. I learned to rollerblade, I went out with friends(not too often,as I was a major downer to be around),I went to movies I wanted to see,I mall-walked,I lost 20 lbs (we were sep. 3 weeks).

My kids are older than yours,they were very protective of me...BUT THEY KNEW first. They had it all figured out and discussed between them.They all went away to school shortly after d-day so they were not there for the worst of it, BUt make no mistake, the kids can tell something is up.If dad winds up with a grilfriend,if this goes badly with you, they will CERTAINLY know!I would take the high road, if that were to occur and be BETTER than they are. Your kids will remember when they are adults how you ALL conducted yourselves.

I couldn't LOOK at my H without crying. I cried every time we made love..The difference between my H and yours was that my H woke up,a little more and sooner. BUt I was blamed for everything for a long time..and that did not help ME or US.

I cried EVERY DAY for about 18 months..I was not myself again until VERY recently.

Don't talk to him anymore,a/c...take care fo YOU nad your kids..be nice by all means,PLan A by all means..but if he is where he is ,in his head, you are heading for heart PAIN,worse than NOW, if you can imagine that. You have til Dec to deal with this,for you.

The computer perpetuates the fantasy..I think it's actaully BAD they can only communicate that way.She can't annoy or irritate or BE REAL online. She can be everything she already knows he wants with very little pressure.

There is NO amount of talk that will change his mind..actaully, the more talk there is, the more he will convince himself of the futility of it. He's enthralled in a ROMANCE...and he thinks THEY are different and special.When he sees that his affair is a sleazy little scummy thing, just like everyomes elses',he will come around but it could takes time. No one can say how much time.

My feeling is separate emotionally, TERRIBLE difficult, but let me tell 'ya, THAT Brought MY H around..when it became a little too real, that I was gonna WALK and DATE(people were already asking me out). IT wasn't a game, I MEANT it, I saw and accepted the worse case scenario...He was gonna divorce me for her and I was trying to be positive for ME...I began to plan for MYSELF alone.

You should have heard him when I said I was gonna move to the city(NYC),get a job in a brokerage firm,get an apartment and MOVE ON!!..And further, although I was a mess..it was apparent that I was excited by the prospect of taking charge of my life. I was 18 when we M, there were MANY things I had always wanted to do!! I was CLEARLY gonna do them!! HE HATED IT!!!!

I don't think that is PLan a and when he confessed and came home, some of that bravado went out the window..but not all of it..IT has been the worse 2 yrs of my life and his. Counseling(us), medication, stress related illnesses(me).But, dammit, WE are still here..worse for the wear,I understand that gets better. We are not quite there yet...but I am hopeful. Neither of US will give up on us.

My H sounded exactly like yours, while he was in her clutches(albeit,voluntarily).2 yrs later, she is NOT a fond memory..It CAN happen...

The grace of God be with you,a/c and your H...you will need all the strength and resolve you can get. Don't do anything YOU could regret..Keep the ability to hold your head up high and to like who YOU see in the mirror.

Hi Topie25...thanks for your advice, it sounds realy good, just hope i have the strength to follow it. So basically what you are saying is that i should go on with my normal life, act like everything is fine with me, and just be the most loving, supporting wife i can be, and dont LoveBust? Let him carry on this affair with her and let it carry out. I should not ask him to end it with her. It seems like our only conversations are about the children. How can he say that there is nothing to fix anymore, his mind seems so set that it is over. It is really hard to even imagine that that will change by the way he is talking and acting these days. The OW is coming back in December, is it possible to make some progress in 3 months. I know he is just waiting for the time to pass till she gets here so they can pick up. I can just imagine what they are saying to each other on the computer. How can i make any progress if she is just laying it on really thick with LoveBanking.
(i miss you, i love you, i cant wait to see you,blah,blah) He goes on the computer every chance he gets to see if she is online. How can i compete with that. I made alot of mistakes in the marriage. A few things are: no interest in sex with him, nagging and *****in when he came through the door, not supporting him in the disapline of the kids (for example: i would take the kids side when there was a problem with the kids. He would say bedtime is 10pm. Kids would work me till i would end up letting them stay up past that time, and then H and I would end up in a yelling match and many other situations like that. I asked him yesterday if i was still attractive to him, he replyed I dont know, I am not sure. He said too much has happened, I guess he means with the OW. I guess i should mention this. When I found out about the A, July 25, he said he wasnt going to stop seeing her. As a matter of fact he went out every nite to be with her, stayed the whole weekends with her, and on part of his holidays he spent about 4 days with her straight and all the while coming home to sleep and eat around midnight. What must he think of me letting him do that? Would he not think i was pathetic? I think thats what he means when he says too much has happened already. Why does my gut feeling tell me, that if he doesnt love me anymore, the chances of tht returning are almost nil. We did make love last nite and he said when it was over, that he felt nothing. I accepted that, and it didnt hurt as much as i thought it would. It just felt so good to be that close to him, that i really didnt care at the moment (thinking about it right now though, is a little tougher). We really enjoyed ourselves and i am still glad i did it. I know you are probably thinking bad idea. But hear me out. If sex was a MAJOR PROBLEM in our marriage, wouldnt it be safe to show, look i am interested in you sexually, i do want you, and i want to fix that part of our marriage. If he really didnt want to do it, he would have said no, i dont want too, so please just go to bed and leave me alone. Cause you know what, 2 weeks ago, he did say that to me. Boy, you said i could vent, and i sure am doing that. Thank you so much for listening to me. My neighbor said "how can he fall back in love with you, if he is still there, he isnt getting a chance to miss you or your old life together, he needs to leave, I think there is a better chance that way, he can see what he is missing". Please give me your thoughts on that. I am so sorry, i have talked way too much, thank you so much again for listening, i am in so much anguish, i dont know what i would do if i didnt find this board...A/C0810

Hi A/C,
Boy I can really relate with you. I was there 7 months ago. This waiting game for the other woman to show up is pure TORTURE. I waited and tried to plan A from a distance and during the 3 weekends my H visited, but in a way I couldn't wait till the OW got to where he is. It seems sick but I wanted to get it over with. For them to be together. Then the real test. Now that time is here, and I am in a modified plan B, NC unless initiated. I am going to try the reverse babble suggested by Orchid and other (see thread on that). Unfortunatly, there is not much you can do to change him, you CAN change YOU. A book I found very helpful was "7 Habits for Highly Effective People" I highly recommend.
Also I learned I had become overly dependent on my spouse. Good or Bad, But in this case and situation definetly BAD. Find YOUR worth. You will need to be strong just in case the worse happens. It really helped me to read the stories here. There are much worse situations than mine, but WE ALL SURVIVE. It sure takes alot out of us, but I KNOW if I can get through this with my sanity and my self-respect. HECK I CAN DO ANYTHING!!!! BRING IT ON!!!!!
Also believe me THIS THING IS MORE ABOUT YOUR H THAN YOU. I did so much self blame. It is one thing to accept and learn and try to change past mistakes. But don't feel like everything is your fault H will want it to seem that way, but marriage is a 100%/100% deal. We both have responsiblity and blame. Accept that, change what you can change, AND LET THE REST GO!!!! If you believe in a Higher Power. Give that part over to them.
I know this is the hardest thing, harder than I ever thought it could be, but, it does get better. Rollercoaster is the proper word for it, and you won't believe the ups and downs. But take heart, YOU CAN DO THIS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
S-

Hi again,
Just a thought on the sex thing. Don't feel bad. That was one of my WH's BIG EN's. I did the same thing when he would come to town. I sexed his brains out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I don't feel bad about it at all. It was a concious decision on my part, I wanted him to KNOW how it could be and what he would be missing. I have no regrets, I even sent him XXX rated emails something I never thought I would or could do. Remember he is YOUR H not hers, you have every right to be with him. There will come a time when this will be counter productive. You will know when. My H did not initiate any sex with me when he was here, but he did stay at home and knew it was coming, I TOLD HIM. And stayed here 2 more times. He also gave me the line that it didn't mean or change his feelings, but he sure didn't act to upset during. I didn't rape him or anything. Like I said I think you will know when the time comes to let him get it elsewhere. Otherwise don't beat yourself up about it.
S-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A/C0810:
<strong> A few things are: no interest in sex with him, nagging and *****in when he came through the door, not supporting him in the disapline of the kids.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you haven't already, take a look at the EN and LB questionaires on this site. Fill them out for yourself, and then try fill them out for your H too. You already know there have been things you've done or not done that have been bothering him; work on those things. But (see below)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We did make love last nite and he said when it was over, that he felt nothing. I accepted that, and it didnt hurt as much as i thought it would. It just felt so good to be that close to him, that i really didnt care at the moment (thinking about it right now though, is a little tougher). We really enjoyed ourselves and i am still glad i did it. I know you are probably thinking bad idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it's a bad idea at all. But as I started to say above, don't be surprised if he gets angry or makes comments like this when he sees you trying to meet those EN (like SF). He doesn't *want* you to meet his needs. He wants you to be the person he can blame the failure of his marriage on. He wants to be able to say that you didn't do this or you did that, and that's why he turned to this OW. Expect that he is going to hurt your feelings 10x a day with things he does or doesn't do. Expect that he will try to push you away. Expect that he will get angry or cold or put you down, especially when you've been working your hardest to fix things. He doesn't want you to work on fixing things, because all of his handy excuses go out the window when you do, and then he gets angry.

But remember, while you have a lot of history on your side right now, so does he. He has all the memory of how things were, when you weren't meeting his needs. You're going to have to prove that YOU'VE changed, and toward that end, take some of the other advice I've seen given on this board. Get a hobby, lose some weight, take up jogging, make some new friends, whatever it is, do something for you. Make you a better person, not just to meet his needs, but to meet yours too because he's not going to be doing that for a while.

Mere

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Merentha ]</small>

Hi everyone and thanks so much for all your wonderful advice. H says there isnt any reason to try cause there is nothing there to try for. Do i let this line ride on its own and see if H figures out himself that there is something there to try for. So i keep trying to save this marriage and just sit by and let him do nothing, and how long do i let that go on. I need to know if he is trying or even wants to try, dont I. I know right now he says he doesnt,do i give him 2 or 3 weeks and then ask him?.....thanks so much for all your help, Topie,Mere,Wounded,ute and Lor, again i am so glad i found you guys.

This is where the suggested 6 month timing comes in. Dr. Harley suggests a 6 month plan A. Some of us do more (up to and over 1 yr), and some of us do less (mine only lasted 2 to 3 months).

I don't suggest that you ask him if he wants to try to reconcile your M. You already know what his answer will be right now. What you need to do is (gently now, gently!) tell him that you believe in him, that you love him, and that you want to be in recovery with him. Use lots of "I" statements. And don't ask him any questions about your relationship!!! If he wants to talk about it, let him be the one to initiate it. Besides, should you and him recover your M, you'll have plenty of time to have relationship talks then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your H telling you that there is nothing to work on is his honest opinion right now. Show him otherwise!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Show him what a great person you are (still!), and show him what he would be missing out on if he left to be with OW and without his family.

Just as Merentha said, expect him to be angry. The more you reinforce (and are CONSISTANT) being the best wife ever, the more your H cannot blame you for your current actions. Sure you made mistakes during your M... you know that! We ALL know that... but that's only because we have done the same!!! But that didn't give your H the right to go off and have an A!!! Plan A is partly not giving your H any reason to blame you right now. Oh.. he still will of course. He'll say, "your changes are too late!". That's just babble. Think of that statement as his admitting that he's noticed your changes!! Yes, it will make him mad... but only b/c you're taking away his so-called "reasons" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> for abandoning his family.

As far as the sex issue. I don't have a problem with it either. As long as you aren't hurting yourself by being sexually involved with your H, then go for it! SF tends to be way up there on most H's EN lists... so what a great way to build up those love units!! I continued SF with my H during our separation. He told me that he no longer found me attractive too (pardon my crudeness... but if that was the case, then how'd he get it up then???). It was also a great way for me to build up my love bank a little bit too. There was nothing wrong with that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Just be sure to protect yourself. If things have gone PA with OW, then be sure to wear a condom. The last thing you need to deal with right now is an STD!!!

Keep on posting. Keep on venting if you need to too. It helps clear the mind, doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Karen

Affairs begin when spouses become disconnected. It is perfectly okay to try to rebuild that connection. You are doing the right thing to try to reestablish that sexual connection. Ignore the "there's nothing to work on comments". Don't engage with that. Just focus on trying to have good moments together in a very emotionally heart wrenching time.

Hi Espoir...thanks for you soothing words of encouragement. I sent H an email this afternoon. It said...couldnt stop thinking about how incredibily good you made me feel last nite, can hardly wait till the next time. Do you think that was ok, or is it a lovebuster. And also i kiss him gently on lips as he leaves for work in the morning. I do notice when i try to build up the love bank he gets angry...A/C0810

Hi everyone....just to let you know, i had a glimmer of hope this morning with WH. After 8 weeks of this , he came into my bed this morning, making advances, i thought i was dreaming. I dont want to get my hopes up, cause i keep thinking about what everyone said about the in and out of the fog. Pleease tell me this seems like there may be some hope for us.. A/C0810