Confronted WW last night because some things just did not add up to her story about her flying 1500 miles to see other man. She said nothing happened. I have obviously wanted to believe her, but some things just didn't make sense. So at 1:00 am this morning a told her to tell me the truth, and she did. They had sex when she went to see him. Felt like my chest was caving in. In my outburst I told her to get the f*** out of my house and that I was filing for divorce immediately. I went upstairs to bed and she came up after me. She stood by the bed and we talked for about and hour and a half. Of course she said it was a mistake and that it should never have happened. That she regretted it and that she was sorry it happened. Of course I wanted details, she just said it just happened. I'm sure that's what I would say too. I told her lets just file for divorce and call it quits, because its over. She refuses to say its over. She says she does not want to divorce. That she has 50 million things going on in her head and she needs time to sort them out. I told her I would not file for divorce if she could tell me that OM is gone for good and that we'll concentrate on ourselves and on our marriage. She said nothing. I told her, basically you are choosing him over our 14 years together and or 11 years of marriage. She said nothing. I said that doesn;t give me alot to go on. Why should I want to stay and work this out, why wouldn't I just want to file now. She said she doesn't want us to end and that she doesn't want a divorce. She said she needs space. I told her space from me, but as soon as you get on your own you'll have all the time for om. She said she would tell the other man to back off so she could get things straight in her life. She said I am being honest when I say I do not know what I want. But, that I don't want a divorce and I don't think we are over. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ANY OF THAT MEANS.
I told her she needs to be out of the house by next saturday. She said she needs to find work, but I told her that could take a month or more. By that time, with us living together, I'll have attorney's involved and we'll end up hating each other. I told her I will help you get out until you get a job, but once she is out I want absolutely zero contact with her. I don't want to see her, I don't want hear from her, I don't even want to hear here name. I told her I want no contact whatsoever.
She said her counselor told her that we need 3-6 months of seperation. I told her I can't promise I'll be here in 6 months. But, that I know 1 thing, if OM is still involved there is no way in hell im going to want her back.
So obviously, I didnt get any sleep last night. After our talk and my outburst, I calmed down considerably and I just needed to hold her. Sounds stupid huh? So I rolled over and cuddled next to her, she said I didn't think you would even want to touch me. I said I need to because it may be the last time I get too. She said she doubted that.
Not sure where to go from here or what to do.
For some reason I'm not as hurt about it this morning as I thought I would be. Maybe it hasn't hit me yet. Well, and the AD's are probably kicking in too.

TORO

Hi Toro,

I'm an Oldtimer around here,been in recovery now for three years and have a marriage that is soooo much better than before my H's A. Your situation sounds almost exactly like mine did 3 years ago, with the exception that you're a male BS, and my H's OW lived a little less than 400 miles away and he met her in person on a business trip a few years before the EA started. He never got a chance to make the EA a PA, as I found out right in the nick of time, when he was getting ready to go visit her, right after I got the "I'm not in love with you anymore, we need to separate" talk.

I was like you, just beside myself. Told him no way would I share my H's heart and soul with someone else. He said everything your wife is saying. Needed time to think things out, didn't really think he wanted a divorce, but OW was his "friend". Well I managed to get through 4 weeks of Plan A with him in the house and then I couldn't take the pain anymore. He had told me he had stopped contact with her but still couldn't decide if he wanted to be married and wanted to separate just like your wife is saying.

So I let him go. He moved out. I told him he'd better make up his mind in a timely manner because I wasn't going to wait forever. It was the best thing I could have done. He could not stay away from the house and when he came by I showed all my Plan A changes BUT I went about living my life like I could do it without him. I, of course, was dying inside and was scared to death but in our case a separation was the best thing that could have happened to us. He got to see first hand what it would be like to be divorced. He got to see exactly what the consequences of a decision to leave would be. Our kids refused to go visit him on the weekends, he ended up spending time here at home and I got a chance to show my Plan A changes.

He went to IC. He had time to think, be alone and reflect which would have been very difficult in our small home with the demands of 3 kids on a daily basis. I told him I was going to Parent's without Partners and he got really uncomfortable about that. You know, just like a kid, he wasn't interest in his old "toy", but boy, if someone else might decide that old "toy" was something great he wanted it back as his own right away. He could see that if he didn't make up his mind and get his act together that he was going to lose me for certain.

I had not been a "bad" wife. I had let my priorities get out of whack. I had put the majority of my energy into the kids and especially into rehabilitating our multiply handicapped child. We had poor communication skills. Geesh shoot me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Even so, I was in no way going to tolerate an ongoing A flying in my face.

Our separation lasted 2 months. We've been in a successful recovery for 3 years now. We have the kind of marriage I'd only dreamed of having before. It's not all perfect but we are so strongly bonded now and have such better communication skills that going through all the pain of the A was worth it. It's hard to believe I can say that but it's true.

Hang in there. Don't Plan A for longer than you can take and let her go. Let her experience the natural consequences of her choices. Don't save her, don't bail her out, she's a grown woman who's made a huge mistake. That doesn't mean that she can't learn from this and that your marriage can't be saved but you've got to let her really experience what it will be like to live without you. When she's experienced that and if she chooses to come back then you'll have a lot better chance that she won't make the same mistake twice.

Hang in there! All the best to you.

Sorry! Double post

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Toro

Welcome! There are many people here who can help you; they have helped me so much! My FWS and I are six weeks from d-day...I pasted my story below; almost exactly like yours.

We have implemented many of Harley's suggestions; my FWS broke off contact with the OM the day after she told me; with me present (she did it by phone). We have implemented a total honesty policy where we are both welcome to snoop anywhere we like (she invites me to read email with her now). We have just finished the EN worksheets; we will be talking about them tonight over some wine and candle light. In short, our marriage is the best it has been since dating 13 years ago. Does it still hurt" You bet; hurts both of us; me for the memories of the betrayal and lack of trust; her for the guilt of what she has done to us. Hang in there; read everything you can here. If your WS is interested in recovery; it can happen!

John

- - - -
My story

My wife and I have been married 11 years now, and have known each other for 13 years this October. We married in our early 30’s; I was married once before when I was too young (and for the wrong reasons). My first marriage ended without adultery; the end was jointly agreed to (we did it without lawyers), and eventually the marriage was annulled by the church. I am 44 and my wife is 42.

I had always played on-line computer games (Ultima Online, Everquest) as a diversion. About two years ago, I convinced my wife to play with me; something we could do together to improve our marriage. So I got her a computer and we began to play together. She began to play less with me and more with a group of friends she met online. About three months ago, I found out she was having an online affair with someone she met in one of the games. She was conducting the affair online and over the phone, and was convinced she was in love with this person. The guy she was having an affair with was only 23 years old <sigh> and lived .

I confronted her with what I had found (long distance phone bills; over $500 worth). She swore he was just a friend but agreed it wasn’t appropriate and promised to break off the relationship. We began couples counseling (initiated by me) and she told me she had severed the relationship. A few weeks later I found chat logs (logs automatically saved by the game of online conversations) that changed my life. She was telling him how much she loved him; and he was trying to convince her to leave me and come move in with him; and it was clear she had not ended the relationship. I confronted her (again) and she swore she had ended the relationship and that he was just a friend until I showed her the chat logs, and at that point she broke down and admitted to the relationship. She swore that she never had met him in person and that she did not have a physical relationship with him. She again swore she would end the relationship.

We had been in therapy for about eight weeks when she told me she had to go to a conference in her other mans’ state. We talked about it in therapy with our counselor, and both my wife and the counselor convinced me I needed to trust her and not try and stop her from going. I reluctantly agreed. Two weeks after she returned from the conference, she admitted that she met her OM there (it was pre-arranged, she arranged almost two weeks before she left; basically deceiving both myself and our therapist). She admitted to sleeping with him throughout her five-day conference.

I was devastated (devastated doesn’t even describe it). The night before she left we made love and she told me that I should trust her, that she would never do anything to hurt us, that she loved me and that how much we were improving. Twenty-four hours later she was in bed with another man. I called her on her second night there at 1130pm, and she didn’t answer the phone; she called me back ten minutes later (turns out she had to send her OM into the hall while she called). I knew then he was there even though she violently denied it. I cried, told her how hurt I was and how much I missed her. She told me no one was with her, and that I should trust. We ended the phone conversation then, with me telling her I would try.

Since her telling me (about 5 weeks ago), my life has been more miserable than I can imagine. She called him and ended the relationship (I sat with her when she did it). My pain is not so much her breaking our wedding vows, it is the total betrayal off all we did during counseling. Our therapist helped me see that I had closed myself to her, and that she needed me to be more open; vulnerable. So I began sharing things with her that I had not ever shared with anyone. She in turn used this to manipulate me into a position where she could consummate her affair with an OM young enough to be her son. She told me that she had been unhappy with our marriage for the last six years in therapy; our therapist believes she did not tell me because of a severe low self-esteem problem (was afraid I might leave her).

I just do not know what to do with this hole that she has left inside of me. She says she wants to reconcile; that she loves me; that this was a horrible mistake that she will not make again. She wants me to trust her again, and is sometimes impatient that I do not. She has given away to this boy everything in life that was important to me. I used to trust her implicitly; and now I do not know where here boundaries are; what she believes is right or wrong. How do you make love to someone, tell them to trust you and that you would never cheat on him, knowing that in 24 hours you will be sleeping with another? How do you trust someone that can do that?

TORO - I hope you are continuing to calm down. You have a valid reason for your reactions, now try to set them aside for the sake of your children.

This may surprise you, but I wish I was in your shoes.

What I mean is that it appears that your wife wants to work things out. She acknowledges her mistake and shows some humbleness.

Count your blessings and hug your kids. You have a chance. They have a chance.

I and many others here didn't get this chance. Not even close to it. Please don't squander yours by trying to force your wife out. You can accomplish so much more by swallowing your pride and rebuilding your marriage with the help of many here and with the motivation of providing an improved family for your kids.

The sky is the limit of what you can accomplish. If you try to force her out, you may be taking this possibility away, or delaying its success.

Get hot learning as much as you can from this site. Inform your wife about it and tell her she can get a lot of information here, too. Don't tell her or force her here, just inform her. Inform her that there are lots of former WSs she will be able to relate to and lots of BSs who can relate to your feelings that she can ask questions of.

It seems that BSs like you whose WSs immediately come clean always take the moral high ground - which may be justified - but they hurt their chances by not having the motivation to do any introspection. You own a piece of this problem - maybe a big piece. Don't be tempted to dry your hands of any responsibility. Be humble, yourself, and look inward for your contributions to the poor marital environment that created the favorable environment for the affair.

Yes, it hurts. Hurts bad. Most of us have been there. Now gather yourself and don't let it get worse.

John3: your story is so identical to mine it is scary. My WW met this person playing Everquest. I started to notice she didnt want me to be in the same room with her when she played. When she came home from her trip and told me she had met him, I was blown away to say the least.The only difference in our stories is the age difference. MY WW is 32 and he is 33. She tells me there is no way they can or will ever be together. But she just can't let go, and I'm scared I may not get her back. I told her that once we were seperated I didn't want any contact from her whatsoever for a month. I think I need this too. It will be an exteremely difficult time for me I know. Not seeing her, like I have for the last 14 years, is going to kill me. But, I know it has to be done. I just can't stand to be in the same room as her right now. I'm not really sure how I'm going to get through this. Day by day I know. But it is going to be a long and very painful journey. I just pray to God every night that someday she will return to me and we can begin a NEW life together.

TOTO

Thanks for your post too mthrrhbard, it made me feel much better.

Thanks WAT, those were the words I needed to hear. I have calmed down a lot. Haven't accomplished much at work today, just trying to think and figure out what to do next. I will be calm and humble when we are together. I need to get her out of the house, so my WW and I are going to have to work together to get that accomplished in a week. Do you think it is a good idea of no contact for a month or maybe more, or am I pushing that.
Deep inside my gut feeling is that once she is out for a while, 3or 4 months, she will want to come back home. I have always been there for her when she needed me. I know when she moves out she will be calling me to help her with something. I have to learn how to say no and be nice. I can't bail her out, like I know she will be asking me to do.

Thanks again for your post

TORO

TORO - did you really read what I said?

Why do you have to get her out of the house?

Because of your pride?

OM lives how far away? She's not gonna be able to rely on him for anything, and thus won't be able to realize what life with him will really be like.

Don't force her out. If she chooses to go, fine. But don't make her go. This is all pride and vindication on your part, I'll willing to bet. Swallow it.

Seize the opportunity to Plan A your butt off. Can't be as effective if she's not around.

Tell me if you understand what I'm saying.

WAT

WAT: I do understand what you are saying. I do want my WW to be at home with me. But she feels she needs to have space and time to clear her head. To find out what she really wants. I know this guy is 1500 miles away. But she keeps telling me she hasn't felt close to me for some time, and that she has to find out if she can get that feeling back for me again. her counserlor told her if you can't love him let him go. I think she is trying to decide if she can love me. At least thats what I think. I wish I could blank out the images i have in my head right now, and I don't even know what OM looks like.

TORO

Forget about OM. This is not about him. He's irrelevant as a person. But what he represents is all the problems in your marriage.

Yes, if she wants to leave, don't try to stop her.

Get hot on Plan A and focus on identifying your contributions to the problems while you let her find herself. Be the best Dad you can be and take care of those boys. They are your ace in the hole.

WAT

Thanks Worthatry, your bluntness is exactly what I need. I am going to do just that.
Actually just talked to OM. He called ME. He says he is ending it right now. No e-mail and no phone calls. Says if he has to be an SOB then he will be, but he can't talk to her anymore. Says she has been asking to come back there again, but he won't let her. We'll see. I'm not going to put a lot in it and I'm not going to focus on that, I'm going to focus and me and my boys. The rest is up to God.

TORO

Dear Toro,
I can tell you love your little boys. They are worth doing this for.

For your wife to have an affair, she must be getting some important emotional need filled by this outside source. Unfortunately she was not getting it filled at home.

If you are going to try these principals, worthatry suggested you implement Plan A. Plan A is about fixing yourself.

**Eliminate all love busters in your reactions to your wife - angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, etc.
**Try to identify and work on meeting your Wife's top emotional needs. Notice that I say your wife's - not yours. Often we spend a lot of time trying to do for our spouse what makes us happy, and we don't understand when they don't have the same reaction. Our needs are usually different.

You will find most of the information regarding the usual top 10 emotional needs on this web site. Getting some of the Harley's books is also a good idea.

Your goal here is to work on your marriage, and to fix whatever you have done wrong to contribute to this situation. This way, you will at least be able to say you tried your best, and you will understand better what went wrong so you are not doomed to make the same mistake in the future.

When working on your Plan A, you may feel like a doormat. That's okay - do it anyway for the sake of your family. Stick with people who are supportive what you are doing, and avoid those that would encourage you to give up.

Our society conditions us in these situations to set ourselves up into legal adversarial positions with our spouse. Please try to avoid falling into that "trap" or mindset while you are working on repairing.

Just so you know, the principles I learned about here saved my marriage. My WH actually did leave the house for a short while, I practiced Plan A, felt like an abused doormat, but I also learned about a lot of things I had not done well in our marriage. After a few months of implementing Plan A, my husband came back to our marriage willing to try to work on it together after he saw I was serious about making changes in me. At that point I introduced him to the marriage builders concepts, and we have been in recovery since January 19. I am happier today than I have ever been in our marriage. But you should also know that he did not express true remorse for his affair until way after we began our recovery process. That's because he blamed me for driving him into that painful situation. This is very common for spouses and should be expected.

In addition, I noticed that you had also been involved in an affair in the past. Your W may still be harboring feelings of insecurity about that, unless you have worked very hard to overcome that with her.

Just my two cents worth. Hope it helps. I think you have found the right place.

Toro -

2 things...

1. If you *must* have your wife out of the house, do not cut off contact with her. Keep it light and fun, but DO NOT cut off contact. Make sure there is a plan for her to come back at a set time. Don't let separation go on too long.

2. Get on anti-depressants NOW!! Do not wait.

From Dr. Harley himself:

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Thanks WillingToTry and NotSoSadTiger,

I am following all of your recommendations. I am on Anti-Depressants now. Have been for 8 days now.

Also, I will be starting another thread. Received back an e-mail message from WW to OM. Need some answers on it. OM might have cut all contact with her and she isn't liking it one bit.

TORO

Originally posted by TORO:
<strong>....I am going to do just that.
Actually just talked to OM. He called ME. He says he is ending it right now. No e-mail and no phone calls. Says if he has to be an SOB then he will be, but he can't talk to her anymore. Says she has been asking to come back there again, but he won't let her. </strong>

If this is the case, get into counseling with Steve or Jennifer or a good MC ASAP. Your W is speaking with a forked tongue. Displaying disrespect to both you and the OM by talking 2 different ways. The fortunate thing in your case is that the OM may be more of a gentleman than your W is being honest.

So you need to assess what is best for you and your family. Plan A is the general recommendation to start but if she is going to give you a bad time or you can not restore the trust at this time, take a look at the book Love must be tough by Dr Dobson. Good book and also take a look at Redhat's thread about enabling the A. See you are still meeting some of your W's needs and she knows it. Otherwise, she'd have you out on the street.

<strong>I'm going to focus and me and my boys. The rest is up to God.</strong>

Good. You have placed your faith in a reliable source. But you also need to work along with it. Also love and forgiveness when repentance is shown is part of his plan. But he doesn't expect you to be a doormat.

take care,
L.