Thank You Space

I like the way you explained yourself.
I'm at a crossroad in my life making a major decision in my life concerning divorce.

I was in deep denial about my H thinking he had changed. My H is much younger than I. My H is also very manipulative. I know this, my denial once again.

My H and I was having good communication, reconecting at least thats what I thought. We had no communications for 2yrs. H. A was over that's when the lines of communication started.

I believe my H has started seeing someone else recently, just intuition I tend to go by my intuitions we live in different states.

I'm tired of the unecessary games, here I was under the impression he changed. I wonder why he even initiated contact if he wasn't serious.
I'm human, I believe he doesn't get it, I have feelings and it hurts.

I do love my H and want to work on our marriage. I feel as though my H has no respect for me.
I feel he is ashame of me because of the way I acted out when he left me.

I wanted to get a reaction from my H. back in March 02 I called my MIL I told her, I needed to locate my H so I can file. I did this to get a reaction.

My H called me told me, he would be in town when in fact he was already here. H told me I didn't have to file he would file. Matter of fact he told all of his family and XOW that the purpose of his visit to get a divorce.

Two days had gone by, I never heard from H I called him at his mom 's house, asked H did he file. H told me it cost to much. The cost is $90
plus $25 serving fee. He said that was to much, I told H he could have gotten a waiver.

H told me the clerk never told him this, which I knew was a lie, they inform everyone. H told me he would get a divorce when he goes back to were he lives H never filed.

My point is he tells his family he's divorcing me
he tells them he doesn't love me, he 's even gone to the extent of saying I won't give him a divorce.

Now back in 99, I contested the divorce. I felt H was pressured, but eventually he would have gotten his divorce, all he had to do was
follow up on the court date he never did that.

I told H when he came here in March, if he file I will definitely sign the papers. I will not hold on to Him.

How can you love a person, that say's they don't love you. He claims he has to get to know me all over again, but what about the person I believe he's seeing. Doesn't he has to get to know her also? Wouldn't it be better to get to know someone you already know oppose to someone you don't know at all.

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

Hi Space

I come to believe one more time, WS don't get it
Here, My H A is over with XOW he started communications for what ? I feel just to see where my feelings are for him

To start playing with them again. H had an A as result OC was born. I was willing to work on my marriage inspite of. He still thinks I'm a doormat. I truly feels he has no respect for me.

We would talk regular, now he's never home and doesn't return my calls. I know his patterns he's seeing someone I believe.

I can't believe this is happening again. I honestly thought H intention was sincere . His intention was just to see where I was with my feelings, and once he was sure about my love for him me wanting to work on our Marriage he starts playing games.

I don't deserve this, I poured my heart out being honest making sure he knew, I was willing to work on our marriage. Now my wounds that was begining to heal they are scared again.

I don't deserve this what kind of person would do this? I wouild excepted him calling me saying look I apologize I don't want the marriage anymore and move on. MB can't help restore this marriage it is damage goods.

So now I have to prepair myself for living without him. After these couple of years thinking one day we will see this through and work on our marriage.

SC, fellow FTB Countian, is there such a word.

Haven't read all of this thread but I do think many WS do get it. Some get it at Dday or shortly there after, some get it after months of the BS trying the BS's heart out, some get it when it is all most too late, some get it when it is too late and some never get it.

My oppion is based on yrs of reading here & what I have seen in my own STBX. He recently sent me the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I have done is wrong, and I know that it is wrong. I think pride has played a part in my actions, and loneliness too. At the end, even before OW, I had a very hard time traveling. I often had anxiety attacks, and really was not handling stress very well at all. I needed something, but I don't know what it was.

2. You said the other day that your friends had left you, and they must think you were a terrible person to cause me to leave you. I had some problems with you, but most of them were internal problems that I could not sort out. You are not a terrible person, and to be frank, I have been very surprised with how strong you have been. You have been stronger than I - if I had been stronger, I would have left OW long ago. There are things you could have done, but there are things that I could have done also.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My STBX even as late as last spring was still putting most of the blame on me, how it was my fault that he had an A, how it was my fault that I didn't try hard enough to recover our marriage. To have him write those words to me, has healed some very big hurts in my heart, to have it said it wasn't all you, for him to see that if he had stopped the A, we could have recovered. It also hurt some too, to know how much he threw away for basically nothing.

Of course this was over a month ago & he still is with OW, saying he is leaving when he can, we will see, my D will be final soon, a sad event but I am doing great & getting better every day after 3 plus yrs it is about time.

Now to flip the coin, how many BS really get it? I see too many BS here laying all the blame on the WS, not seeing what the BS did that led to problems, repeating the same mistakes over & over again, and never showing any growth.

Just my more than my 2 cents.

<small>[ September 29, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: sing ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sing:
<strong>Haven't read all of this thread but I do think many WS do get it. Some get it at Dday or shortly there after, some get it after months of the BS trying the BS's heart out, some get it when it is all most too late, some get it when it is too late and some never get it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. And I guess the question is, (excluding those who pretty much get it on DDay), how is it that those who eventually "Get It", get it?

What has worked? Have they ALL just done it on their own? Is there ANYTHING a BS can do to help this proecess along?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now to flip the coin, how many BS really get it? I see too many BS here laying all the blame on the WS, not seeing what the BS did that led to problems, repeating the same mistakes over & over again, and never showing any growth.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ABSOLUTELY true...in fairness, I'd say just as many BSs don't "get it" as WS...

From your story, it seems it took your STBX YEARS to get off the "blame game", and realize he was also at fault. It seems from his words that he's sorry he didn't realize it sooner. Which is PRECISELY why this question is relevant...if we have some more insight into this process of "getting it", perhaps we can "save" more Ms.

I moved out for similar reasons as you did. I did it for my own sanity. Well, I also did it because my H wanted me to leave, but it was something I was contemplating before he asked me to leave. I couldn't live with my H the way he was treating me. (He was ignoring and avoiding me at all costs, then coming after me for sex, then going back to avoidance.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just to clarify, the fact that I do love her and would like to save my M does not mean I am ready to go home and again live under the conditions I was before. I cannot do that, and I won't. I believe that as she sees and feels my love, she will begin to see and "feel" some of my pain as well, and she will have to make her decisions as to what she should do for to respect my feelings. It is all part of "getting it". I just want her to do it on her own; I can't tell her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you substituted "he" for "she" and "him" for "her" in the above quote, it is exactly how I feel about moving home. I don't want to move home unless my H genuinely wants me there. I don't want to try again unless my H genuinely wants that too. And the conditions we live under must be different too. He must be willing to work on this marriage alongside me, not just expect me, the FWS, to do all the work because I made the life-altering mistake. We need to be a team again to make it work.

JB

IMHO, no they dont ever really get it.

Replaced

Well, as a former WS. . .

YES!!!!!

I do get it--I got it a long time ago.

I got it up, down, sideways, and every which way, believe me.

Of course, I didn't get it all at once, though--it comes in waves of realization.

I got it when my ex tearfully handed me my last b-day gift as I was ditching him.

I got it some more after the divorce was final. (The divorce I insisted on but didn't really want--I didn't know what I wanted.)

I got it some more after my ex got custody of the kids.

I got it some more listening to my kids cry when I drove away--and every time I drove away after that.

I got it some more after OM kicked me to the curb--hard.

I got it some more after I remarried on the rebound--to basically a good-looking stranger. Who was kinda on the mean side.

I got it some more as my ex put his arm around me and congratulated me on being pregnant with my new husband's baby.

I got it some more with every horrible, explosive mind-wrenching fight I had with my husband.

I got it big-time as my husband cheated on me and nonchalantly turned my life upside down and sat on the fence for awhile taking notes while I jumped through hoops for him--comparing me to a complete stranger. He destroyed almost all of my dreams.

I have every kind of self-help book printed during the last ten years engraved indelibly on my brain.

It is really kind of mean to say that a wayward spouse never gets "it."

Of course he/she does, unless he/she is a hopelessly sick person. It might take years, and repeated stupid acts of self-abuse, before they realize that they have gotten on the train going in the wrong direction. And he/she will probably never admit it to you, the person that they have hurt, that they have gotten "it." (Especially if you have moved on out of their lives.) In fact, most likely they will not admit it to you, long after they have finally admitted it to themselves.

Would I ever cheat again? Nope.

I would cut my own throat before I ever put myself in that position again, you can count on that.

My marriage now is--well, it's OK. Sometimes even good. We don't fight too much anymore. When we do, it's like purging a festering sickness--so much anger.

It's lonely. Somedays, we don't say a single word to each other.

I kind of laugh at this "emotional needs" thing. I have emotional needs--so what? I would like a small token of affection occasionally. But I have to suck it up.

He has emotional needs, and they must be met or else. Sometimes, I am so drained that he has to suck it up, too. I have to admit that. These are the times that I take my diet coke and a People magazine into my room and shut the door for a while (at least I am not "nagging" at him this way--if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all is the new rule around here.)

Given this situation, and all the good-looking young GI's around here, I would be a prime candidate for being a cheater. But I never will be, ever again.

I might start writing romance novels as a way to expell all this energy that I can't use in real life. It would be a shame to waste it. In fact, I am going to start writing pretty soon, when I am not cleaning up behind Captain Universe (I mean that endearingly--he does make a great captain.)

But I would never cheat again.

<small>[ September 30, 2002, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Bernzini ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From your story, it seems it took your STBX YEARS to get off the "blame game", and realize he was also at fault. It seems from his words that he's sorry he didn't realize it sooner. Which is PRECISELY why this question is relevant...if we have some more insight into this process of "getting it", perhaps we can "save" more Ms. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe the answer is why the A started?

Did the A start due to unmet needs,the WS being unhappy with thier life, a MC, an exit A or is the WS an addict of some form or some other life changing event, ex. death of family member, loss of job?

I think and again this is based on yrs of reading here, in some ways, there are unmet needs in every marriage, however those unmet needs are not always the sole cause of an A. It is just easy for the WS to say those needs are the cause of the A.

Why it took my WS so long to get it? Well, if he was honset he got it all long but he couldn't face what he had done, so it was easier to say it was me. But he says himself the biggest reasons: pride & loneliness.

I think it's possible that some WSs never get it, especially the ones who continue their affairs after d-day. But I think I got it.

I realize that it was entirely my choice to have the affair. I could've said no, I could've walked away, I could've run to my H and told him how things were getting out of hand with OM before it became an affair. I could've communicated my needs better to my H before OM became an "OM". I made a life altering choice, one that destroyed my marriage and perhaps also the kind heart of the man that I love.

I know that I have hurt my H beyond belief, and he is going through pain, anger, resentment, loneliness, self-doubt and despair. I also reallize that I have embarrassed him in front of his family and friends.

I have considered what my life would be like if my H had had an affair, and with my BF at that. I'd be devastated. I don't know if I could ever forgive him.

I even understand why my H feels compelled to spend all of his social time with 2 female friends. I am no longer around to meet his needs, so it makes logical sense why he'd be in an EA now.

I spend my time reading self-help and "after the affair" sorts of books. I spend my time reading at MB. I go to IC. I make regular notes in my personal journal about what I learn and realize. I AM figuring out why the affair happened, what I need to change about me in general to be more healthy psychologically and be a better person, and what I will need to do differently if and when my H and I get back together.

My affair ended with D-day. I have pretty much no contact with OM. Unfortunately, I have to work with him until June at least because d-day was the day after the last day transfers for this year were possible. I do not talk to him unless I am forced to. So far I have had 3 occasions where I've been forced to acknowledge him and that's it. He may even "get it" - he has also left me completely alone. I do NOT want to be with OM at all. I never did. My behaviour with him was a foolish method to meet my needs. I should've communicated better with my H. I shouldn't have taken my H for granted.

I am so angry at myself sometimes, but it accomplishes nothing to be that way, so I have forgiven myself. I'm left lonely but attempting to be a strong, good person so that I will be someone my H can love if he ever gives me the chance.

Now, having said all that, just wait and watch, some very hurt BS out there who is going through living hell will find this post and tell me that I don't get it and never will, and how dare I forgive myself. Well, if I don't get it, BRING IT ON, DO tell me why I don't get it! I WANT and NEED to get it, because I love my H and I want to save my marriage more than anything in this world!

Just my 2 cents worth,

Jen

Jen,

I'm one of those BS.

You get it.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Sing;
That is an intriguing idea...how much they get it or not depending on the "type" of A or the reasons they had an A...very intriguing.

Any thoughts on this, folks?

My Dear Jen Brown;

First of all, let me say that I send you bunches of Love...you deserve it. Your honesty, your introspection, and your openness to display your feelings honestly here are proof of that.

And as a BS, I will say that if my W "got it" HALF as much as you "get it", I'd be a VERY HAPPY guy! You Get It. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

As far as BSs go, there are many of us who despite learning here and elsewhere, DON'T get it. Or at least keep enough of the self-righteous indignation and anger to not let their Ms recover. It DOES take two, and it's not always the WS who doesn't tango.

getting better, and space case:

Thanks for making me feel like maybe I do get it. I just pray that when I do get the chance to talk to my H again that I can articulate myself effectively enough so that he knows I get it. I am tempted to write him a letter outlining all the things I've realized that prove that I "get it", but I fear he'd use it as admission of adultery for a fast track divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as BSs go, there are many of us who despite learning here and elsewhere, DON'T get it. Or at least keep enough of the self-righteous indignation and anger to not let their Ms recover. It DOES take two, and it's not always the WS who doesn't tango. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's my biggest fear - that I pretty much figure it all out, I know what I need to do to be a better wife, I am willing to do what it takes to help make a stronger marriage, and my H may still be so wrapped up in his hurt pride, anger, resentment and desire to punish me, not to mention doing what his mommy and daddy tell him, that he will refuse to let us try.

I know that no one can ever force him to try, but gee whiz I wish I could find a way to persuade him to do so.

Again, thanks for being supportive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It was the pick me up I needed in the midst of some real loneliness and self-loathing.

Jen

Space/Sing

I think this is very important for us WS that do actually get it. For me, it is a daily struggle to decide why the normal, rational, intelligent, good, loving wife Lisa picked the table up and threw it up in the air with everything on it, never stopping to wonder what would happen with all the bits and pieces now crashing down around my ears. I can't believe I never ever thought at the time what would happen if H found out or what it would do to all of us. I guess I thought he never would - DOH, WS Stupidity!

This to me also comes across clearly in Jen Brown's posts. Trying to search deeply inside ourselves to work this out. I don't know if I can move forward with recovery until I sort this out. For me, it could be simple to say, H wasn't around properly for 2 years, I had opportunity and H wasn't meeting my needs. But if you reverse that, it was true of H too, but he didn't have the A.

If I find the answer for me any day soon I'll let you know.

Lisa

My WS doesn't get it.

So far me accepting her A, her lies, her deceit, her hospitalisation for 6 months, her irrational behaviour, and and her perception that I should be 110% aok still wasn't enough for her to get it.

Today I have filed for Divorce. For her she is still HURT to much by the handful of things I said in the last couple of weeks to come home to the family that loves her. She prefers to stay with OM2.

Clearly some don't get it.

Neil.

Vee put up this amazingly clear post the other day (see my sig. line) on the WS perspective.

I think *we* (the BS's) don't give the WS's enough credit.

One thing I'm pondering now, is feeling like I've not received enough remorse, enough "I'm sorry's", enough tears. When in fact there's been quite a lot of all of that. But still, I feel like there should be something more.

Lately, I'm considering that what I seek: some expression by my W that will make it "all better" just isn't possible. That this transgression, and the pain it caused, is on a whole different level. And there is really nothing my W can say or do that can cover it. And still, I feel like I've been seeking that.

And I think, up till now, my perspective has been that since I haven't received what I am seeking, then my WS, like yours, just doesn't get it.

I'm thinking lately that maybe it's not that she doesn't get it, but that she can't give it. There is no cure, no silver bullet, no magical words that can cover it. I can tell you, that fact, she does indeed get.

So, I'm trying now to recognize that seeking what cannot be found is not a good plan. And that healing happens every day that we are together and working toward a better R.

Well put, Riff.

There's nothing a WS can say or do that will heal the hurt. WS can make the BS feel better and ease the pain by being open, honest, remorseful, regretful, and by giving 100% to earning back trust and respect. That's really all the WS can do.

Our rational minds know that by insisting that the WS give us that intangible "something" (we don't even know what it is we want!) to heal our pain and by holding out for that pound of flesh, we're simply asking the impossible. The WS couldn't possibly make up for the pain caused by an A.

Yes, WS should show remorse and certainly ask forgiveness of the BS, but what then? If the WS remorse/regret is honest, then who are we to constantly beat them over the head until WE think they've been punished enough? It won't stop the pain. It won't help heal the marriage. It simply won't help.

Recovery comes with walking out your love on a day-by-day basis. It happens gradually.

Just my thoughts.

Lori

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's nothing a WS can say or do that will heal the hurt. WS can make the BS feel better and ease the pain by being open, honest, remorseful, regretful, and by giving 100% to earning back trust and respect. That's really all the WS can do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me chime in here for a moment....

In trying to really look deep into my situation, I believe that some of us would really like to have just a little recognition for what we are trying, or did try to recover our marriage.

Unlike my WW who has taken an attitude of "So f****** what if you have expended all this energy and walked through the pits of hell to try to fix this. I don't give a [censored]."

Even if the M doesn't work out, I think there are those like me that would sincerely hope for a LITTLE respect and recognition for what we have gone through.

It's bad enough to have to deal with a destroyed M; Don't make me feel foolish in the process.

My WW has gained this attitude of that she became single the day she left. I regret to inform her that she isn't DV'ed yet. But...she acts every bit of a woman who is available. Immediately after D-day, she made NO attempt to hide anything.

In other words, even though we have had to deal with an A, can the WS show a little decency? My WW is staying with her folks within sight of here, and she has begun to bring OM #2 to her parents place. Right in front of me. Will even wave should I happen to be outside.

She gets the marital home when all of this is done, and I am waiting on HER to finish the paperwork. It should have already been done, but isn't. Couldn't she wait a few days, instead of shoving it in my face?

Mine will never get it, I'm afraid. For her to be so in love with OM #1 after having an A with him for the last 3 years of our M, it sure was strange that she fell in love with OM #2 just a couple of weeks after her and OM #1 ended.

I'm now asking myself how much I REALLY know....

Supposedly, OM #2's first W DV'ed him because of physical abuse. He has already gone through 4 other R's this year.

If he holds true to form, I surely hope that she doesn't need that to "get it".

Even THAT may not do it.

I'm afraid that she is on a journey to find something, and she's been getting FARTHER away from it everyday....

HCII

yes....WS can do something...love the BS...without conditions. Every little morsel I get is appreciated...even though right now, that's all I get. SF would be nice, but not coming yet. Court us...if you mean what you say, then let your works confirm your speech.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>...That's my biggest fear - that I pretty much figure it all out, I know what I need to do to be a better wife, I am willing to do what it takes to help make a stronger marriage, and my H may still be so wrapped up in his hurt pride, anger, resentment and desire to punish me...that he will refuse to let us try.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, just so you know, this is EXACTLY what most BSs who DO get it feel like. Exactly! This too goes both ways.

We can but try, and try again, Jen.