You can see the following post
Topic: Help.need advice quickly WS wants to talk tomorrow & it isn't going to be good
about the advice I was given prior to my wife(WS) wanting to sit down and talk in person. Well she came out and said that she wants me to let her go and she is 100% sure she wants a divorce so there is closure. She said that the divorce would give each of us closure so we can move on. I disagreed with her and told her signing a piece a paper isn’t going to change things but she thinks other wise. I did my best at being strong and listening. I believe I didn’t LB at all and I did tell her that I felt that the marriage good be resolved with the help of Steve H. She disagreed with me and again when I asked her to talk to Steve H. she said no. So I took the advice I believe J.R. gave me and I asked her to talk to Steve H. so he can get her perspective on things and Steve H. can point me in a good direction for me. She seemed to disagree with that but at the end of the conversation I told her it would be good for her to talk with him not for “us” but for her and me. I told her I would pay for it so now I have to send her the phone number via email and see if she calls him. Something tells me she isn’t going to call.
Unfortunately the entire conversation was about the relationship and that was my wife’s choice. I tried bringing other things up to change the subject but she kept to the subject. She told me she wanted to be 100% honest with me on how she feels and didn’t want me holding on to any hope. She told me that what we had would never be there again and she is sure of that. She said she see’s no future for us and that it is over and that is how she has felt for 12 months now and still feels that way. I did my best of Plan A’ing during all of this and told her I would be here as a friend but she said she can’t come to me. My wife cried a lot during the last twenty minutes of the conversation when it came down to how people have judged her. She is very mad that her parents haven’t supported her with what she is doing and they don’t really talk with her. She said I am tired of everyone judging me because I finally acted on how I feel. She said she is 27 years old and it is her life.
In a nutshell it wasn’t good to hear someone say she will never love me like that again and never be with me in a relationship. I told her I believed in her and I believed in us. I told her I disagree with her that things couldn’t be good again in the future. She asked me to let her go and she is feeling a divorce is the next step. She asked me if this could be a mutual divorce so things can go smoothly because neither of us have much money of lawyers.
One odd part is we met at our townhouse first so she could borrow the vacuum cleaner. I told her if she needed to do laundry (she complained of the laundry mat) I told her she could do it here it is still our house. She said it is no longer our house that it is my house. I was trying to Plan A with telling her she can do that. I offered her some Snapple drinks to take home but she didn’t take it. She did grab some more things from the house, throw pillows, candle, blanket).
Thinking it was going to be bad tonight was one thing but hearing it was something else. I did cry a little twice because I couldn’t hold back. Wow is this hard. Now what? She told me we will just talk through email and she wants me to think about letting her go. It doesn't sound like I can Plan A any more like Steve H. suggested. She is seperating herself from me because she feels that is best.

((((I'm so Sorry)))
I'm still new to this site,but want you to know I'm praying for you and your wife.I'm finding out the hard way myself you can't make a person change Unless they want to!!
I'm so sad for you...you will make it through this.You have fought for your marriage...we need more men out there,who have the balls to stand up for there families...keep your head up.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You can only move up from here...please keep us updated and GIVE YOURSELF SOME EXTRA PAMPERING~

Well... I'm sorry it didn't go better, but we can only lead the horse to the water...

It's interesting that she asked you to "think about letting her go"... you can still tell that even now she wants YOU to be the one to agree with her to end it... her concept of having to make the ultimate decision on her own is still too much for her.

So you do have some choices.

You could simply not give her the satisfaction of "helping" her. You could tell her clearly and in no uncertain terms: "I don't believe in divorce, so I won't assist in getting it. You however are free to do whatever you need to do." How much more "free" can you set her??! That's about as free as you can get. And you're not controlling her - you're controlling YOU and what your principles are.

Or if you look inside yourself and realize you can't do this anymore, you could oblige her. I realize that isn't exactly the "rah rah, go MB" cheer, but if you can't do it anymore, you just can't do it. There is a time to let go completely. My theory is you can still do that and let her do the hard work, though.

As for doing it without lawyers... If you have money and she doesn't, I say don't let her get away WITHOUT one... It's a natural consequence: divorces are expensive luxuries... just a fact of life. Maybe she needs to start saving!

So in the end, if she's expecting a reply from you about "letting her go", my suggestion might be something like:

Dear WW,

I heard you saying that you thought things were to the point where divorce was our only choice in your eyes. I know that the last year has been very difficult for you and I, but I also know that I do still have enough love for you to try again, at least presently. I've done a lot for myself, and I'm ready to be very, very happy again.

My preference is to see you by my side... rediscovering our potential and spark. But I also realize I can't demand this of you. You are certainly free to do whatever you feel you need to do.

If you feel a need to file for divorce, then you should do what you think is right. Personally, I've never believed that divorce is the best solution in most cases. So although you may seem to think I'm hanging on, I'm not really - just living my life as I need to live it for myself. I do want to see you happy, and I'll do whatever it takes for that. I'm here to listen. I will respect your wishes. You've been the most important person in my life for x years.

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Sorry for what you are going through. There are reasons for it. If you look deeply enough you will see reasons. I am a WH and much like your wife. We cannot force anyone to live the way we want. We can only point the way and hope for the best. You deserve happiness and can find it in yourself. We have equal rights as people, you are equal to her so be strong. I wish you well.

I am truly speachless after hearing/dealing with this. This has set me back more then I thought it would. I thought I was going to be strong and then slam. I wish I could tell myself my wife didn't say what she said but I was sitting there hearing it with my own ears. Now you can guess what is on my mind. I just keep hearing it over and over especially the part where she said I need to let her go and we would never be together again like we once were.
I feel very depressed just knowing she had the courage to say that to me. I thought I had an idea of what to do thanks to Steve H. and that was to Plan A. Now it appears that I can't do that because she doesn't want to talk in person only via email. What do I do now? Where do I go from here? What do I think? What do I do?
This is so hard on me and people that know of what she said real bad because they all know there is nothing they can do to make me feel better.

CG, I know it probably doesn't make anything feel any better right now...but that conversation sounds a lot like many that H and I had along the way. It's pure fog and confusion.

If I were you I wouldn't argue with her about whether or not Dv is the solution...in her mind it's the only one. I remember feeling the same way. I would write her a letter where you tell her you appreciate her being open and honest with you and have given some thought to her suggestion of moving forth with divorce. Tell her that maybe you be more agreeable if you were in the same place emotionally, but right now you're still very much in love with her and see different possibilities for the future. Tell her that you understand that she feels differently but that you just can't come to the same conclusion from what she's given you to work with. Ask her again if she wouldn't speak to Steve H so that maybe he can help you work towards letting go like she as. Maybe if you're both at the same point things will go smoother. Emphasize that Steve won't pressure her in to marital counseling if he's sure she's right that the marraige isn't salvagable. Tell her that while you agree that she has the right to decide her own future, you would simply appreciate it if she would help you to ease in to it as well. It would be like she's doing you a favor...not that you're trying to sneak her in to counseling.

No matter what...DO NOT pressure or argue with her about how she feels or what she wants. YOU know it's fog and totally based on emotion...but she won't get that until it slaps her in the face. Just Plan A if/when you speak to her, and do something about getting a life. Not that you don't have one...but if you aren't doing much outside of the home or hobby wise....find something. Everytime I heard my hubby was getting out and about I'd get a little jealous. I tried to be happy he was finally getting out, but it still bugged me when he'd drop our son off and he smelled like cologne. I loved it when he wore cologne and it actually irritated me he was heading out to wear it for someone else when he barely wore it for me!! Do the old trick of getting a couple of new shirts...a new hairstyle, maybe some highlighting, and a new cologne. I think that new Drakkar smells pretty nice.

I know...it's not a game...but yet it is. It's the little things like agreeing with them when they want you to disagree and creating a little mystery about whether they know you as well as they think etc... that causes you to be an issue in their life once again. It's worth a shot!! Good luck!! I still think you have a chance!

Oh, and the money thing...her not taking anything, even a pop from you...that was me to the T. You've got a prideful woman on your hands there. My hubby had to practically force me to take anything. It's an independence thing, as well as a futile attempt at averting guilt. From experience I can say it doesn't work for long.

C_G,
Sorry to hear of your pain!
Your situation has to be very difficult to cope with -- The rejection, her apparent resolve to end things -- very difficult to take! I feel for you!

This betrayal thing is so tough - no easy answers.
I happpen to believe in the idea of opposite forces - Sometimes when we try too hard to hang on, it can "appear" to a WS to be Weak. ???
As you know, it is important to appear strong, self-confident -- Very difficult when you see a relationship of nine years going up in smoke! WEW!! I understand your feelings!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
She obviously shows very little emphathy for your feelings and is somewhat selfish with her remorse about her family not approving of her actions (of her Infidelity I assume) -- DAAA!!
I understand that many, if not most WS have this basic "self-centered" charateristic -- Don't know if it is because of A or is contributing trait or factor that leads them to an A to begin with? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> They of course have a need to justify their immoral acts in a sense -- Thus, it is understandable in a way for a WS to attribute their wondering, at least in part, to marital dis-satisfaction -- like it was our fault!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> If nothing else, it protects their image to a degree - that they are not a totally ruthless, animals. Then if the OP sticks around, maybe the grass just "looks" greener ... So sorry!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I believe that in how you describe her attitude, that a good option for you to consider would be more along the lines of the Dobson book. Let the Tiger out of the cage -- she is already out in a sense -- You cannot control how she feels -- she may not be as sure about a D as she seems though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Maybe she is still trying to justify her bad actions in some ways? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
It does not seem she will turn around as a result of feeling sorry for you or protecting your feelings of rejection -- It seems taking the offense may be your only choice - not much to loose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Act as if you are letting go (even if you are not ready actually!) Perhaps you should even initiate conversation about D! Try hard not to be the "doormat," "Needy" one. I believe that when they have to face the reality that we may not not always be there for them, it could change they perspective. This is what I mean by "opposite" forces - they are pulling away & we appear to be hanging on or trying to pull them back -- if we let go off the rope, so to speak, they may actually fall down without the resistence - causing them to re-think -- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Nothing is full proof.
They have do-it yourself divorce kits on the internet. Pull one down & print it - show it to her - take the offensive. It still takes time to process -- nothing is immediate -- Then you can always resend if she does not come around -- but you have to consider the worst -- If she has truley had a change of heart, you will have to face that reality.
Above all, I believe it is important that you try hard to "Detach." She has issues that she is wrestling with that are based on her - not so much about you!
Hear is a copy of a post I had saved --
DETACHING

This is an exert from a message posted on a marriage enrichment (“Marriage Builders”) discussion, message board, forum.

"Detachment is not a cold, hostile withdrawal; a resigned, despairing acceptance of anything life and people throw our way; a robotical walk through life oblivious to, and totally unaffected by people and problems; a Pollyanna-like ignorant bliss; a shirking of our true responsibilities to ourselves and others; a severing of our relationships. Nor is it a removal of our love and concern, although sometimes these ways of detaching might be the best we can do, for the moment.

Ideally, detachment is releasing, or detaching from, a person or problem in love. We mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically disengage ourselves from unhealthy (and frequently painful) entanglements with another person's life and responsibilities, and from problems we cannot solve, according to a handout, entitled "Detachment," that has been passed around Al-Anon groups for years.

Detachment is based on the premises that each person is responsible for himself, that we can't solve problems that aren't ours to solve, and that worrying doesn't help. We adopt a policy of keeping our hands off other people's responsibilities and tend to our own instead. If people have created some disasters for themselves, we allow them to face their own proverbial music. We allow people to be who they are. We give them the freedom to be responsible and to grow. And we give ourselves that same freedom. We live our own lives to the best of our ability. We strive to ascertain what it is we can change and what we cannot change. Then we stop trying to change things we can't. We do what we can to solve a problem, and then we stop fretting and stewing. If we cannot solve a problem and we have done what we could, we leam to live with, or in spite of, that problem. And we try to live happily—focusing heroically on what is good in our lives today, and feeling grateful for that. We leam the magical lesson that making the most of what we have turns it into more.

Detachment involves "present moment living"—living in the here and now. We allow life to happen instead of forcing and trying to control it. We relinquish regrets over the past and fears about the future. We make the most of each day.

Detachment also involves accepting reality—the facts. It requires faith—in ourselves, in God, in other people, and in the natural order and destiny of things in this world. We believe in the rightness and appropriateness of each moment. We release our burdens and cares and give ourselves the freedom to enjoy life in spite of our unsolved problems. We trust that all is well in spite of the conflicts. We trust that Some-one greater than ourselves knows, has ordained, and cares about what is happening. We understand that this Someone can do much more to solve the problem than we can. So we try to stay out of His way and let Him do it. In time, we know that all is well because we see how the strangest (and sometimes most painful) things work out for the best and for the benefit of everyone.

…The rewards from detachment are great: serenity; a deep sense of peace; the ability to give and receive love in self-enhancing, energizing ways; and the freedom to find real solutions to our problems."

****

Take what is helpful & leave the rest.

Peace be with you ...

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

Hope4Future gives the very best "talk" when it comes to a wayward wife who wants her H to initiate the big bad D.

Listen to H4F .... she is a treasure of experience and practical advice.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Well, looks like all the cards have been put on the table, really nothing more to discuss. She knows where you stand and you where she stands in all of this. Doesnt seem like there is much you can do or say anymore that will change her mind.

Maybe it is time to 'let her go' so to speak. Thats not to say that the M is completely over, but maybe she needs to be totally free to live her life without you. I get the feeling that she is asking you to put the final nail in the M coffin, that she doesnt want to make that decision and thinks that if you do, she can use that as an excuse to end things completely. You know, the "well, he is the one who filed for the D, what could I do?" excuse.

I see you at a crossroads now with 2 paths you can follow. One is to continue to fight for your M like you have been doing and the other is to let her go and see if she comes back on her own free will. I dont think the first path is going to work anymore, you've done a noble Plan A and she sees it. For whatever reasons, she does not want to commit to the M and after 12 mos of this, I doubt she will change her mind soon.

But to me, the second path means getting her out of your life completely. No buddy-buddy stuff at all because that is not what your goal is and it would only cause you more heartache. Let her go completely and if she wants a D, let her fight for it. If she wants out of this M so bad, she is going to have to fight for it, just like you are fighting to save it. Maybe its time for you to move forward on your own. To me, WW has yet to really be in a position where the finality of her decision is apparent to her, she wants a D, yet you are always waiting in the wings. Its time to remove yourself from the equationa nd let her see what life will really be like without you (and I mean completely without you.

Of course this is just my opinion. Whatever you do, make sure you consult with Steve first, he knows what is the appropriate action to take. Take care of yourself, focus on you and not WW.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

she is 100% sure she wants a divorce so there is closure.
Just because a divorce takes place does not mean there is closure.

Closure is when you have dealt with all of the problems. Not necessarily got them sorted out but at least understood what they were and why they happened.

Walking away from a marriage/having an affair does not solve much at all, it just side-tracks the issues with the spouse. The same problems will crop up later in relationships BECAUSE they were not dealt with.

CG:

Chorus is right. That ain't closure. Closure is when they put you in the ground... ...hopefully in several decades from now!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"I thought I had an idea of what to do thanks to Steve H. and that was to Plan A."

Sounds like a good idea 2 me.

"Now it appears that I can't do that because she doesn't want to talk in person only via email. What do I do now?"

Plan A via email. You might find it an even more effective way of communicating. I know I did when I needed it.

"Where do I go from here?"

Stay where you are! Well, physically that is. Give her somePLACE 2 call home again, at some point in the fu2re

"What do I think? What do I do?"

These are entirely up 2 you. Continue 2 think loving thoughts about her, most importantly about YOURSELF and your value, and DO what you KNOW is right. You can only grow from this experience. "shrinking" is not an option.

(((((confused guy)))))

I'm so sorry to see you going through so much pain. It really hits home for me to hear where you are at right now, because I fear I will be at the same point in a few weeks - having the big "talk". My husband has also told me that he no longer loves me and doesn't think he ever will again. In his angry moments he loudly shouted that he "lovED me", but that it's over now, and we'll never have what we once did. So I really empathize with you!

I really liked Hurrian Hoosier's post on detachment, because that's where I am at now, quite detached. It's the only way I can get through this all. But, like you say, "I thought I was going to be strong and then slam." Detachment is a nice goal, but when the one person we love says things that hurt us, and make us feel like there's no hope for recovery, detachment just isn't a realistic possbility!!!

If your wife is still willing to email, and is asking you to "think about letting her go", I say try the remote plan A, if you still feel like you have it in you. Don't make filing for a divorce easy for her either, make her do all the work, and just stick to your guns about the fact that you "disagree with her that things couldn’t be good again in the future." Remember, it's not over unless you are actually divorced. (Hope4future is a good example of that - recovery of M 2 weeks before finalization of divorce!)

Take care and keep posting. As bizarre as it sounds, I think I am learning from your experience. Maybe we can keep learning together.

Jen

cg,

Keep your chin up!

I really feel for you. Did our wives share notes with each other?

Things my W has told me:

She does not want to give me hope.

She said we never had anything, the M was invalid and she is sure of that.

She said there can be no future for us and that it is over and that is how she has felt for many years now and still feels that way.

She said she is tired of everyone questioning her decisions, beliefs, etc.

She asked me to let go and stop being in denial.

She wants the divorce to be smooth and easy. (yet, she's the one making it harder than it has to be).

She is divorcing me because that is what is best for our son and for her.

Things I have said:

I still believe in her.

I told her I disagree with her that things couldn’t be good again in the future. (your words exactly)

I don't get it! Her head seems to be so clear and she sounds so determined, but the uncanny similarity between our wives make me believe in the fog I hear so much about. I pray and hope that our wives can wake up soon.

I don't know your whole story but my story involves an EA from her part. She keeps insisting this is not about the A, but about our M which can never work because she can't live with me and I've given her 9 years of hell, etc. etc.

It is the hardest thing I've ever had to endure. I have seen war, I have seen death, I have seen physical pain, I have seen many things and felt the pain with each one, but never have I seen/felt this pain. My faith keeps me strong and I know after all is said and done, I will survive, and so will you my friend. Not only will I survive but I will be a stronger person and you know what? No matter how much I love her, it will be HER loss. She has made me question my self-worth, but I know that I didn't give her 9 years of hell and I know I can make a helluva of husband (no bragging). Granted, I want her to be the recipient of what I can give, but if it is not to be her, like I said, her loss.

Hang in there, my friend, I hear it gets better. Nothing bad lasts forever. No pain ever goes wasted.

Thanks for all the replies. It has made things a little better but I am far from saying I am great. I still feel extremely depressed as well as just bummed out about what my wife said. I question myself now as why I am hanging on to someone who just unleashed everything on me and it was the most awful thing anyone has ever said to me and that came from my wife. I keep telling myself fog talk, etc.. But in my head those words go over and over like a broken tape recorder. I feel I have slipped from where I was until now since hearing those words just fly out of her mouth. I do know down the road this may make me a stronger person but I question if all this was worth it in making myself a better person?
You can say my chin is betting bruised from me lifting it up and then tripping again. I lie in bed at night and think do I keep fighting or do I give up. This has taken a lot of the fight out of me that was driving me to keep trying with all of this. Maybe this is me just realizing more that it may truly be all over. The flame seems to have a constant wind blowing on it and that wind is my wife. She is trying so hard to just get that flame to go out in me.
Below is my wife’s response to the email I sent her that I provided her with the information on how to contact Steve H. What do you think of what she said? I think she is just doing it so she call tell Steve to tell me to let her go.
--
I have not called to make an appointment with Steve Harley yet, but I will definitely do that soon. I will make sure to call and talk to him. I do agree that maybe if he talks to me he will have an easier time guiding you and help you out. I will let you know once I have that all set up. Thanks for checking up on me and I'll keep in touch when I set something up.
--

What do you think of what she said?
I say don't hold your breath waiting for her to set it up. Is she likely to actually do it? Probably as good a chance as not.

When my ex called him (only once), I told MB to use my credit card & charge it to me. She only had to schedule & make the call. Still took her a month to do it.

Well, my hope for you, bud, is that she talks to Steve and he works some magic on her and makes her very, very confused once again.

I personally think you owe it to yourself to give that a chance... give her a little more time, make some radical changes for yourself.

I also strongly, strongly recommend seeking out anti-depressants. I started on Prozac in early September and now regret not starting A LOT SOONER. It's been super, and I'm only on a low dosage. Your confidence and strength will return more quickly with this extra little bit of help.

Chris...
I hope she does call because she is thinking that she will tell Steve H. to tell me to let her go. I am also paying for it like you did so I hope my wife doesn't take a long time to call.

J.R...
I hope you are right and Steve H. can confuse her but I am not sure how he will do that when she is going to be on her best defense with him. My wife has the attitude that she knows what she wants and is sure of it. I will look into the anti-depressants.

My mother-in-law sent me an email between her and my wife. My mother-in-law and father-in-law are on my side and don't believe in what my wife is doing. One interesting note is what my wife said below. It is all about her independance and one day finding love again....Is this typical fog talk or more like that is really what she wants?

--
I can't really tell you that I have a well thought out plan right now of what I want my life to be. It is simple, I want to live on my own. I want to do what Jane did when she moved to Greece to live on her own. I have made a lot of drastic changes recently and at this point I am trying to live one day at a time. I do know that I would love to have our family back together how it used to be. I would love to be able to call your house and talk to you and to Dad. Professionally I want to continue working at work and I would like to get promoted to a new position within the company. On a personal level I want to continue living in Chicago and live independently. I want to continue working out and running. Some day I hope to have a family of my own and I hope to find love again.
--
What is up with her saying I hope to have a family of my own and I hope to find love again? That is what she is leaving now, someone who loves her. To me this sounds like some independence b.s. The whole cake eating thing...

To me this sounds like some independence b.s
It's a pretty typical response.
My ex said the same thing about wanting to be on her own. She even sent a note to our oldest daughter (now 17) and tried to explain, "after high school I got married and in with you dad, never lived alone, blah, blah, blah."
So why did she move in with wankboy?

Anyway, Steve tries to explain a bit about why relationships fail and how they can be put back together. Also, he'll try to find out her issues so you can address them from your side.

Hang tough.

Chris:

"So why did she move in with wankboy?"

I think that almost beats Rat Meat!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"Anyway, Steve tries to explain a bit about why relationships fail and how they can be put back together. Also, he'll try to find out her issues so you can address them from your side."

Though I didn't get that far with SH, I truly believe he has a rare talent among Cs for this. I truly hope that your WW will talk 2 him CG. Also, she needs 2 learn that M isn't SUPPOSED 2 stifle independence, it nurtures it! SH can help her see that.