I gotta good laugh out of this one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
One of Kens OW CAlled here looking for him...3 times tonight.Finally I told her look he's not here,like I told you before he's dating other women too ,call Star.
(ow)Well I don't have her number!!
Sorry can't help you Ow...
click

Maybe things are starting to finally click in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> the first OW head!!!
I just thought that was funny he must be with the other* other* women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Dear Betrayed,

I won't even comment on all the recent exchanges that you and your H have had lately, I'll only reiterate what I already said in your other Post. Your one and only focus right now is to learn how to be strong enough to remain separated from that man. You have been used and abused and will continue to be so as long as you stay connected to him. There are too many red flag issues in his personality to even begin to comment on or cover. You should be thankful that you have left this situation with your physical health, some dignity, and self-respect left over. You will need counseling to heal from all the hurt that has been inflicted on you in the course of your marriage to him. Please, do not be like so many other abused women that let the fantasy of "love heals all" get in the way of your logic. This is a tough time for you and you will need to separate your emotions from your H as much as you can. Do not be a martyr and do not try to be the savior of his screwed-up life. Love yourself and love your child. The sooner you accept the fact that neither this man nor your marriage is salvageable at this point the better-off you will be. Stop wasting your emotional and mental energy on this loser (sorry, but I feel strongly about this). The man you fell in love with is not the man that you got in reality. The fantasy is shattered. There should be no more delusions about him in your mind any longer. He has given you every shot of hard cold painful reality that a person can possibly give to another person, short of putting you in the hospital, so any further involvement with him, and any pain suffered by you because of him, is now your fault. You cannot claim to be ignorant any longer. You know that saying, "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me." Well add this well known fable when thinking of your STBXH:

The fable of the fox and the scorpian

A scorpian was wanting to cross a river.

along came a fox.

the scorpian said to the fox:

"you should let me on your back and swim accross the riverand take me to the other side"

the fox replied"

"No, you will sting me and i'll die"

The scorpian said :

"I assure you, I will not sting you"

The fox replied:

"what gaurentee do i have that you will not sting me?"

Scorpian:

"if i sting you we will both drown"

the fox thought about it for a second.

The scorpian climbed onto the fox's back and the fox began to swim across the river.

Mid way across the river. the scorpian stung the fox.

The fox said: " why did you do that? now we will both die"

the scorpian said "I cannot help it.... its my nature"


Please, Betrayed, protect yourself first and foremost. I know it hurts and it is sad that things turned out this way, but you are so deserving of a better man and a better life than what you got and are dealing with now. Be strong and keep it real! God Bless You.

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Need to VENT!!
I'm in plan B,And have made up my mind that I will not think* about working on saving our marriage any longer..until Ken deals with all the addictions!! Which may never happen...SO I'M MOVEN ON.....I have had it...I have no other choice.
I do so good,when I don't have to deal with him.
Please Help me think of what actions to take now.Since I am in Plan B.
Differant situations,I don't know how to handle..HELP!!
Yesterday I was shopping at the mall...christmas shopping with my little boy.I was walking and looked and there was Ken Marcy and her 2 children.Ken tried to talk to me and see his son,I kept walking.He hasn't come to see him in over a week now...he has no excuses he's too busy with his life.
He was carrying her oldest on his shoulders it just Breaks my Heart.
Did I do THE right THING keep walking...not give him or OW the time of day??
Another thing is he stopped by last night with her in the car,said he had bought Kieran a coat..I told him Just pay child support I'll pick out the clothes.I don't need your girlfriends picking out my sons clothes.
Then shut the door,I haven't taken any of his calls...
I'M SO UPSET....I had two people call me saying they saw Ken with another women,people I haven't talked with in yrs!!!
Then I explained were divorcing ect...but still it's so desrispectful(sp?)of him to parade OW around town
I feel that everywhere I go I am going to run into him..I swear I have bad luck.

Betrayed:

I am so so sad for what you are going through. It is unthinkable to me how he can do what he does to the woman he supposedly loved enough to marry, and now your son has to suffer too.

Question: Do you live in an area where you will constantly be running into him? A small town or tight-knit community?

It is going to be harder to deal with this if he is constantly around you with these other women that he seems not to mind parading around in your face. How old is your son now? I don't know how the others will feel about this, but if your son if at the age where he recognizes dad right-away and dad tries to approach him and you pull your son away from him, your child will become very confused, hurt, and possibly angry at that. As much as it hurts, and as callous as he is being with your feelings, don't let him turn your child into another weapon against you. Refusing the coat was fine, along with your comment, but being openly hostile towards him in front of your child will only make matters worse. But this is such awkward and horrible situation I don't know how others are going to feel about this and how you should have handled it. I completely understand how you felt and why you did what you did, but I am not sure if that is that right thing to do each time you see him in public, especially if he is with another women at the same time.

Based on what you told us so far, I feel this situation could get extremely ugly, even to the point of being life-threatening. Please take every precaution you can for your safety and the safety of your child and family. I'll pray for you. God Bless.

First of all I wanted to say Thank you,something clicked in my brain...I have been struggling with it the past 2 weeks.What to do..Plan B or A or to just completly Let GO!!
My Heart is letting go on it's own,his actions help me let him go.
I still Love him/Care about him deeply But...as I told him You ripped this family apart,I Forgave you and wanted to work things out..You didn't choose to go in that direction.

I feel like I have been slapped in the face one too many times.

I told him from now on he can make an appointment to see Kieran..no more 8:30-9pm at night, buisness!!
Just call a day ahead,and I won't be here my mom will supervise the visits.We can only talk about Kieran/and Legal issue's.

I also LB'd I wish I would have held my tongue but i told him...

Ya know what,instead of Playing Daddy With ow kids..you should be seeing your son...so do not give me anymore excuses!!

Well I'm still his dad.

Yes, You are...but to me I think of you as a sperm donor,IF YOU TRULY LOVED YOUR SON YOU WOULDN'T BE RIPPING HIS FAMILY APART!!
I'm done you come to me when and if you get help!

Question: Do you live in an area where you will constantly be running into him? A small town or tight-knit community

We live in Grand Rapids Mich...it's a smaller city not as big as Chicago...but you can run into people easyer here...plus we live not that far from each other a few miles.

How old is your son now? I don't know how the others will feel about this, but if your son if at the age where he recognizes dad right-away and dad tries to approach him and you pull your son away from him, your child will become very confused, hurt, and possibly angry at that. As much as it hurts, and as callous as he is being with your feelings, don't let him turn your child into another weapon against you. Refusing the coat was fine, along with your comment, but being openly hostile towards him in front of your child will only make matters worse. But this is such awkward and horrible situation I don't know how others are going to feel about this and how you should have handled it. I completely understand how you felt and why you did what you did, but I am not sure if that is that right thing to do each time you see him in public, especially if he is with another women at the same time.

Our son is a year and a half....he didn't see his dad when we walked by...Ken started walking towards us I kept walking...it was very busy he was looking the other way at the christmas lights.
Plus in our court order he and I can not have anyone around him..until after the divorce.
Once he gets older I may have to just deal with it..I don't want to hurt my son by all means.
And I will not talk bad about his dad around him.

Based on what you told us so far, I feel this situation could get extremely ugly, even to the point of being life-threatening. Please take every precaution you can for your safety and the safety of your child and family. I'll pray for you. God Bless.

I think it could get ugly too..most likly alot of courtroom stuff...but I will also be watching my back as well.Armed with pepperspray,and kick boxing classes.
If he starts doing anything wierd I'll call the police,I doubt he'll get violent in public..but you never know.

Betrayed:

I am so glad you are pulling yourself together and taking care of business. 8:30-9:00pm visits? Is he nuts? (Sorry, I guess we already know the answer to that one!) Yes indeed, do not let him rule your life now that he is gone. Scheduled visits are best for all concerned. You have the right to go on with your life as unhampered as is possible. You don't need him continuing to invade your space and messing-up your life further than it already has been. You are probably right that he won't get violent in public. Most women beaters are actually bully/coward types that don't want to encourage male to male confrontations. But given his behavior and mental thought processes, I would still be cautious. I would think that if he ever gets to drinking or doing any mind-altering substances, he may just not be able to control himself at times. Do you have any brothers, male relatives, or male friends that can be around for support and/or protection? Not that you won't be able to handle yourself, but sometimes the presence of another male can defuse a situation before it escalates. I know this because my 1st wife ended-up marrying a beater after we divorced and I started hanging aroung her while they were going through their divorce. He never attacked her or even yelled at her when either I or one of her brothers was around. Just a thought.

Keep posting and venting here. It's a really good tool for clearing your thoughts and emotions and getting some sound advice. You are in my thoughts and prayers. Good luck and God Bless.

Scott

Hey Scott,and everyone,

Just a update on my situation.Everything went great yesterday,took my son out got home around 730.I went tanning,as I walked out of the tanning salon(I always park 5 feet from the door) Ken was standing smoking leaning on the building.
He was alone,but gave me the expression of suprise suprise.....
I stopped for 2 min,gave him an excuse I need to get home my shows on soon and have to tape it.

I was unlocking my car and his mouth was still going.
Saying things like I will fight you...if you think our son isn't going to have everyother weekend with me.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Be ready for the courtroom he said.
I left
He is making this so much a headache!!
He's starting to get alittle BOLD NOW,he was talking in front of other men and women children..since there where people walking around.
Not even bothered by the topics being spoke.
Cheating
Abuse
people were looking at him...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I am not surprised at all. I could just sense that he could, and most likely will be, a MAJOR problem. The more he sees you continuiing on with your life and a divorce, the more angry he will get and the more confrontational. You see, he had you under control and now he is losing it. You are not acting like the weak whimpering victim he wants you to be. You are starting to show signs of strength and resolve and it is driving him crazy. Again, please take every precaution for your personal safety and that of your child and family. If he stalks you or is openly threatening to you, or God forbid, should he ever lay one hand on you again, call the police, make a report, get a restraining order. He probably will still get some court ordered supervised visitation, but maybe not if he is deemed to dangerous to your welfare or to that of the child. I do not envy you your situation. It appears that it is going to be the nightmare of lifetime, if it hasn't already.

You didn't answer my question. Do you have any males in your life that can be around for protection? I really fear for your physical safety. Be careful. Please!

Keep writing. I'll be watching!

Yes I have my dad who's here and 2 brothers..but they live in other cities..and my dad works 60 hours a week.
Ken in the past has told my parents off swearing at them,he's just very rude all together!!
He's like a small dog...has a big bark..but with one hand you could smoosh him...he'd run first though he's a big time coward!!
I'm sure it's going to be a battle...I'm expecting anything,just trying to make sure I have all the evidence to continue to show he is a threat.
I will go tanning early in the day to try to avoid him..But If this gets to be a problem I'll make a police report(after one more time)..and get him for stalking.
Your right on about him not liking the fact that he can't control me.
I will become very strong through this,I'm already excited I feel Back to myself again!!!!!

(((((((BBMBF)))))))

I have been trying to follow your story as best I can right now (it's hard, what with all of the new crap I have to deal with again).

I too, am dealing with an addict for a husband. My H is a sex addict. He has had multiple affairs, both EA's and PA's, he turns to pornography when he feels like he needs to escape from reality, and he has no interest in doing anything to improve himself, as he doesn't believe he has any problems. Sound at all familiar?

This is not the man I married. I now know, that this man was always part of my H... but he kept him well hidden from me for a while. That's not altogether true. I could see he had problems, but I was so willing to try and help him to deal with them, so that we could "live happily ever after" (within reason of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

The problem is, when there is an addict you are trying to plan A or plan B, there is NOTHING you can do to have them "get it". It's a waste of time, ONLY AS FAR AS SALVAGING A MARRIAGE. Plan A is still vitally important for YOU, which is who it is meant to be for anyways.

I believe that you need to adapt more tough love strategies in your life. Having visitations set up through court orders is one good way of doing that. How about his support payments? Does he just give them to you? Or does he go through another party? (Here in Ontario, there is the "Family Responsibility Office". The FRO is the agency used to have parents pay their child support. The money goes to them, and then gets transferred to the custodial parent the next day. There is no contact needed, and there is a record of payment that can not be disputed.).

Hmmm... so your H has a history of abuse, drugs, and affairs. Those are VERY SERIOUS problems. And there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO to help him. If anything, you need to do anything and everything to protect you and your precious little boy from him, and keep going the legal route, and hope and pray that those actions will help him to reach his rock bottom. From what I understand, it's that "rock bottom" hitting that is needed for most addicts to "get it". Once they are there, they then need to admit they have a problem, and THEN they need to seek help for themselves. Only then, can we be there to support them. If we "support them" before that point, all we are really doing is enabling them.

As Honey suggested, try attending an Al-anon meeting in your area. Look up as much information as you can on the internet. Research. Protect yourself and your son. Those are your priorities right now. I can't emphasize enough how it is that you cannot help your H right now.

It's sad. I'm there too. But I've had my boundaries crossed too many times, so now it's time for me to move on with my life. It means I'm leaving H behind.... but I can't bear the pain of staying in this situation any longer.

I'm also speaking from almost 2 yrs ahead of where you are at right now. In that time, I had my H home again, and apparently working on our M. So in that respect, I have the 'closure'(?) of knowing that I tried all that I could to save my M. But it took me until only a few weeks ago to realize that it's been about H all along. I could do everything he asked of me, and thensome, and it still wouldn't be good enough. Why? Because HE is the one who needs to change. He's unhappy with himself, and believes that he'll get that happiness from others, instead of looking from within himself.

Keep us posted. And by the way, I think you've been addressing your H perfectly lately (like in the shopping mall), and when you're on the phone with him. It is EXCELLENT advice to simply smile and nod and respond to his angry outbursts with, "Okay. I'm sorry you feel that way. I have to go now. Goodbye". So what if he gets mad? You haven't done anything wrong - so don't let him make you feel guilty.

Take care,
Karen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been trying to follow your story as best I can right now (it's hard, what with all of the new crap I have to deal with again).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(((Hugs))) I have been so bad with keeping up on posts myself...I have been reading through the Tough Love thread 54 pages whhoooo.My EYES are fuzzy...I'm hoping to have caught up with most of the posts by monday.I work weekends (I watch my nephew who is Autistic).
I did read your post on the Christmas Letter thread...I wanted to tell you that my heart broke when I read about the loss of your son Andrew.
God Bless you..that is the hardest thing to go through..
How old was he? I hope you don't mind me asking....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe that you need to adapt more tough love strategies in your life. Having visitations set up through court orders is one good way of doing that. How about his support payments? Does he just give them to you? Or does he go through another party? (Here in Ontario, there is the "Family Responsibility Office". The FRO is the agency used to have parents pay their child support. The money goes to them, and then gets transferred to the custodial parent the next day. There is no contact needed, and there is a record of payment that can not be disputed.).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes he can choose to have it taken out of his checks/or go to the Friend of the Court and pay it.We are just now in there computer system our court date was oct-11-02.
In the paperwork Child support started sept-17-02(hehe my b-day).So he is behind so he pays $20 more a week.But I haven't seen anything from him yet!!!
My lawyer said wait a month longer since you just got into the computer system..before we go after him.
He now thinks $130 dollars a week(that includes child care,and child support) is too much,since he claims his bills are higher because of HIM making me leave.
He did everything in his power to get me out of there,changed the locks brought ow over.AND NOW IT'S MY FAULT....How dare I still not pay is bills.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I told him over and over again,bills would be payed if we were a family since he chooses not to be a family I no longer need to help him with rent.
To him our relationship is a game...the minute I backed away like plan B,he shows up at the places he knew I went to coffee shop,tanning salon,malls,grocery store....
He says things like "why is this my fault!"
It's not all your fault Ken,but remember you don't want to work out things!?"
"Mary I'm gonna make a list of things YOU need to fix!"

~He has no clue~
I think i'm dealing with many issue's the drugs,abuse,mental health issues,His parents are Big time enablers they'll do anything for there little boy.
He thinks his Talents(music) are the most important thing in the world..he really feels thats number one!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As Honey suggested, try attending an Al-anon meeting in your area. Look up as much information as you can on the internet</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that would be a good idea..too
Now is Al-anon for drugs or alcohol?
He drinks too but i'm not sure how much...for awile he could drink a 6 pack a night..but they would stop for a few months and start again.
Maybe it was binge drinking,but pot he smokes it like he smokes ciggerates.
The wierd thing about it is...he acts perfectly NORMAL AND NICER WHEN HE SMOKES IT!!
You could always tell if he didn't smoke it, he was SO MOODY!!
But to top it off he was on paxil..then the doc put him on 150MG OF somthing else, he had panic attacks so bad he couldn't work,phobia's of public places this lasted 6 months..finally the meds worked he could lIve normal again.
It's been 2 yrs since anything panic related has happened.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It means I'm leaving H behind.... but I can't bear the pain of staying in this situation any longer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats exactly how I feel <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm also speaking from almost 2 yrs ahead of where you are at right now. In that time, I had my H home again, and apparently working on our M. So in that respect, I have the 'closure'(?) of knowing that I tried all that I could to save my M. But it took me until only a few weeks ago to realize that it's been about H all along. I could do everything he asked of me, and thensome, and it still wouldn't be good enough. Why? Because HE is the one who needs to change. He's unhappy with himself, and believes that he'll get that happiness from others, instead of looking from within himself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW I have so much respect for you you have so much patience too...so waiting aroung dreaming of A MAN I <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ONCE KNEW...Is not productive...as time passes I really have started letting go.My heart doesn't even hurt when I look at him,I feel pity for him.
And everytime he opens his mouth * I say to myself YUP HE HASN'T CHANGED A BIT!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keep us posted. And by the way, I think you've been addressing your H perfectly lately (like in the shopping mall), and when you're on the phone with him. It is EXCELLENT advice to simply smile and nod and respond to his angry outbursts with, "Okay. I'm sorry you feel that way. I have to go now. Goodbye". So what if he gets mad? You haven't done anything wrong - so don't let him make you feel guilty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How in Gods name does he really BELIEVE I OWE HIM THINGS BEFORE HE WILL CHANGE OR MOVE FORWARD AT ALL!?
I guess I will NEVER get it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
His attitude is *show me why i should be with you,when I could have all these women!?
He even point blank came out and said over the last few months.
If you don't like me for who I am then where not ment to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I guess where not ment to be I don't do well with belittling and abuse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

(((Hug)))
my post is way too long..LOL

UPDATE NEED INSIGHT HERE!!

I got a letter in the mail from Ken(ws),a very long letter.

The main point in it was this..

Mary I was Very Unhappy for the past 3 in a half years.I told my dad a year before I started dating that I wanted a divorce I hated the way you treated me.My dreams ment nothing to you,I thought going into our marriage that you KNEW what I was about..who I was.BUT found out you didn't,I promised my dad I would try for one more year.
I couldn't stand living with you anymore.
You were too controling,I hated it when you were on my back when I wanted to record over Mikes house.You were depressed,unhappy,and I knew I deserved better.The only reason I was angry,and delt with anger problems was because you pushed my buttons and I hated being married to you that much!
We have been emotionally divorced for along time,you never wanted to go out to the bars with me and watch my friends bands play.You would never leave our son to spend time with me.
I feel that I have tried everything to save our marriage.I was saving my sanity by leaving it!
Every month that passes makes me hate you more,because of what your doing to me.
I could have really got you in court but..since I'm not that way I let things slide.
Unlike you,you had to make sure our son was kept from me and that I should take over the rental,along with the utilities.
I find this SICK
I can never consider going back into a relationship with you when you play these cards.
There is no reason I shouldn't have our son everyother weekend,and you should be paying these bills along with me.
Everyday you wake up and leave things this way,is another reason why I will never be with you again.

Ohh my.....

Betrayed:

That letter was just a disgusting play on your guilt and emotions. He wants you to suffer as much or more than he is right now. The reality gets harder and colder everyday and he does not like it. You do not owe him ANY $$, even if he does take his son every other weekend. There was so much garbage in what he had to say it's not even funny. He sounds like a good candidate for a psychological study on personality disorders. Do not get sucked into his Bull$hit. He is going to assault you in any way that he can to make you even more miserable than you alrady are. Don't buy into his crap. Let him sit in the "mess" he has made. He actually expects you to believe that he was considering staying with you, but that all changed when you started pulling your "stunts" with him. HA! A lie. Defensive bravado. He's blustering like a hurricane right now. Again, stay focused on yourself and taking care of your health and total well-being. He's just going to have to deal with his reality on his own. Keep safe and keep cool. He is waiting for you to breakdown and stop your so-called nonsense. But as times goes on and he sees that you are resolved to continue on independently and that he does not have any affect on you or control over you any longer, his efforts will decrease (hopefully). Keep on the right track. Oh, by the way, do not agree to meet him anywhere alone for a one-to-one talk. Make sure you are always around other people where it is safer. His frustration may get worse before it gets better, so he may not have yet pulled his worst behavior in this situation. You are doing the right thing. Stick with it. God Bless.

Mary,
When I read your thread I am just amazed.

I am amazed that you would take him back if he did want to work on things. That is so beautiful. Sorry, but I don't see him changing.

In a way I am envious. Here I am kind of in the same situation. I am trying to be patient and see if my W will want to work on the M. At this point I don't know her anymore. She is not the same person I married and loved. I still love her, but I just wish she could see what is happening. At first I acted like I was the victim. We are both the victims and so is our daughter. So much pain for everyone. My W has issues that she may never get over......she is not going to counseling. Right now everything is about her and speaking frankly she is being so selfish...not thinking of anyone else's feelings. It's as though an alien has taken her over. She harbors so much anger and bitterness. Funny, no matter what I have said doesn't matter anymore. It sure used to.

I really love her, but now I am in so much pain. I can only imagine the pain she has felt and may be feeling still. Sometimes I think that she is now happy to be free and doesn't miss me or our marriage. She is just so matter-of-fact and non-emotional right now. She has only called me in the past when something happens she is upset about. Then we have a nice conversation.....many times with her talking about relationship, but then turning mean again....even when I am being nice. It is so confusing. I just don't understand.

Sometimes, I just feel like telling her to hurry the divorce through so I can get on with my life, so I can find someone to share my life and love with. I have so much to offer and I know there is someone out there to offer me more too.

Just realize.....at the end of this we will feel better as we have done evrything we could possibly do and said everything we could say. Someday, hopefully, they will think about this and realize what might have been and feel some of the guilt.

Christ will always be with you. Trust in Him and everything will be o.k. If I was you I would think about getting a restraining order. He is starting to worry me. It's amazing how he is contacting you now that you are blowing him off. Keep doing it, but be careful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You and your son are in my prayers,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did read your post on the Christmas Letter thread...I wanted to tell you that my heart broke when I read about the loss of your son Andrew.
God Bless you..that is the hardest thing to go through..
How old was he? I hope you don't mind me asking....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never mind talking about Andrew! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He was almost 4 yrs old, and passed away in his sleep on September 11, 2000. They did an autopsy which came back inconclusive, and the toxicology results returned negative. After almost 2 yrs (just this past July), they finally closed the file, stating "cause of death: undetermined". I have accepted that outcome, as strange as it may sound. As I see it, if whatever it was that caused Andrew's death was something that was PREVENTABLE, then I would never be able to forgive myself.

As much as you may find this hard to believe, the pain of losing a child to death is actually not as great as the pain of infidelity. There are others on this board who have also lost children (Worthatry for example) who agree with me. Looking back on my feelings, I can honestly say that the hurt I felt by my H's betrayal was at least 10 times greated than the hurt I felt from losing Andrew.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now is Al-anon for drugs or alcohol? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is for alcoholism primarily, but the concepts work around all sorts of addictions. I haven't attended more than one meeting myself, so I really can't say what they do. But from what I understand, they help us to heal (the co-addicts, enablers, etc).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The wierd thing about it is...he acts perfectly NORMAL AND NICER WHEN HE SMOKES IT!!
You could always tell if he didn't smoke it, he was SO MOODY!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's EXACTLY what addicts do.... they become dependant on the substances (alcohol, drugs, etc) to make them feel "normal". And the moodiness he showed, was withdrawal.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW I have so much respect for you you have so much patience too...so waiting aroung dreaming of A MAN I <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ONCE KNEW...Is not productive...as time passes I really have started letting go.My heart doesn't even hurt when I look at him,I feel pity for him.
And everytime he opens his mouth * I say to myself YUP HE HASN'T CHANGED A BIT!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do NOT have much patience. That is one of the areas I still need to work on. There's nothing wrong with remembering the good times with your H. That's important to do for your healing, b/c you can compare that man to the one who's there now. And there's no way you would want the (so called?) man he is now, right? I feel pity for him too. I feel pity for all of the people who just can't see how their own actions have created the unhappiness they're experiencing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*show me why i should be with you,when I could have all these women!?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is SO RUDE!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> But he's right, just has the wording a bit wrong. He should've said something like, "I'll show you why you shouldn't be with me, because I am having all these women!". That's the translation of his fogese. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you don't like me for who I am then we're not ment to be </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's just trying to rationalize his behaviour. It's all part of being an addict too. Their self esteem levels are so low, that they end up proving just how unworthy they are. My H has that same idea too. It's part of his "core beliefs" (which are areas that NEED to change in an addict). My H honestly believes that "if two people are meant to be together, then things will just always be okay". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Part of the reason why he has that belief, is b/c he never saw his parents resolve conflict, and they were so happy. His mum even admitted to, "oh! FIL and I would NEVER argue in front of the kids!". That's no excuse for H's behaviours NOW, but that's where it stems from (in my own UNprofessional opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

Keep up the good work BBMBF. You're standing so strong, and teaching your son extremely valuable lessons in his life: to not take crap from anyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

Blindside and AA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I agree with you....!Next time i'm calling the police if he so much opens his mouth and if I keep bumping into him.So far so good...He did call here and chewed out my mom..telling her WE were driving him away from his son because he didn't feel comfortable coming HERE to visit him.And that he hopes were Happy....it's just his twisted thinking~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As much as you may find this hard to believe, the pain of losing a child to death is actually not as great as the pain of infidelity. There are others on this board who have also lost children (Worthatry for example) who agree with me. Looking back on my feelings, I can honestly say that the hurt I felt by my H's betrayal was at least 10 times greated than the hurt I felt from losing Andrew </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((((Hugs))) Thats so hard a 4year old.....i've had still born baby and a few late M/C but...I just can't imagine an older child..so sad!
The pain for me was differant,it was wierd.
Betrayal...I think I was More in Shock then anything I mean I went through a grieving stage as well.
I can remember first finding out about the affair,clutching onto the proof and confronting him about it.
I cried"How could you have done this to us!!??" "Your not even sorry?"
His response "No,I'm not...I did my crying along time ago!"
Thats when he started telling me how perfect she was,how the room was magical we stayed in the Romatic Vicorian room fireplace whirlpool...ect.
I fell to the floor crying Why?!! How!? And that look on his face like he was happy to see me in pain....Now when I look back at what he did and said to me.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I pray God gives him a good taste of his own medicine!!!

There's nothing wrong with remembering the good times with your H. That's important to do for your healing, b/c you can compare that man to the one who's there now. And there's no way you would want the (so called?) man he is now, right? I feel pity for him too. I feel pity for all of the people who just can't see how their own actions have created the unhappiness they're experiencing.

Very Good Point!!!!

Ohhh Boy WHAT DO I DO NOW!?
I'm in plan B(Modified) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
WS...came for visitation called my mom and asked if he could pop in since he was driving by.I was not home at the time,got home and he was in the livingroom with our son.
I was planning on going to Toysrus by myself..and he said " ohh it would be fun can I please come with".It would really help me feel like I was apart of our sons Christmas.(Even though I was paying)
I said no I think it's not be a good idea.Then my mom says well why not!!!..she took me aside and said It's a big deal for him.
O.k so off all 3 of us went to ToysRus.

Of COURSE he started talking.....and this is what he said!!

**I need you to help me out,so I can continue to Live in this state.I need $400 a month towards bills...please do not force me to have to move out of state in with my parents!

I will Give up both OW,and will not talk or see them again.

I will go to any counsler you wish.And will fallow there direction.

However I can't promise things will work out for us,I still don't know if we can be in a relationship,but want to start off slow.

I told him I would think about it and get back with him.

There's still the issue's of one of the OW work's next door to his work.And how do I really know he wouldn't be seeing here.

He never brought up anything about being sorry,it was more like I drove him to another, and it wasn't an affair just dating.

Nor did he bring up what he was going to do to change his anger/abusive past/and drug use.

It's a thread of hope,but what does he really want here....money or me??

Any wise advice???!!!!!

BBMBF

WHOA! STOP! DO NOT PASS GO!

I told you it would get worse before it gets better and here it comes in the guise of a sheep instead of a wolf. See, he already tried the huffing and puffing with you to no avail, now he is acting like the hurt and scared one that needs your help?!?!?!? I am telling you tried and true, this is his one of his ploys to get you to go along and placate the situation in his favor, to lessen his suffering! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Didn't you recognize all the "no promises, no strings attached" garbage he was telling you? He just wants to keep stringing you along some more without any real promises or commitment to you or the marriage. Do not be his "enabler" any longer. He needs to go back home to his parents&#8217; house like the bad little boy that he is. Do not, I repeat, Do not get sucked into this game. It is a no win situation for you and will only prolong the obviously inevitable ending you are headed for and make it even more painful for you, your son, and your family.

He was and continues to be an aggressive and unapologetic abuser and user. Did you read my Fox and the Scorpion Fable? The lesson is clear in that. He may change his demeanor and tone of voice with you, but ultimately it is all done to gain what he wants from you and for his own gain. I caution you, in your confused and vulnerable state, do not fall into this trap.

Yeah, he wants to take it slow all right. Well, you take it slow too. Just follow this: No More Money. PERIOD. Your only monetary obligation to take care of debt that either you or both of your names are on. If all the utilities are in your name, you have the right to terminate the services and have him apply for them in his own name, otherwise, you may get stuck them anyway and end-up getting blemishes on your credit to boot. Look at all this logically and take care of business.

I actually can't believe your mom encouraging him to go with you. Doesn't she know everything about what he has done? Doesn't she abhor his actions and words towards herself and your father? You need support in every way possible. See if there are any support groups available for women going through this type of thing. It may be just what you need to persevere and succeed at this for yourself. Good Luck and God Bless.

Blindsided is right.....DO NOT FALL FOR THE PLOY. Keep in plan B. He is acting like the victim. What he wants is for you to help PAY the bills. It is what my W calls manipulation. He thinks it will work because he KNOWS you want him back.