Lurking - well, I certainly agree with you on your first point. There are "a lot of judgemental conclusions present here."

I'll not attempt to respond to each of your judgements or observations.

Yes, I have an agenda. It's to do whatever I can to minimize further adverse consequences of my son's Mom's adultery with the neighbor Dad less than a year after his brother's death, their subsequent marriage, and his continued exposure to that deviant, immoral situation.

And yes, I am morally superior to any "practicing" infidel, along with being morally superior to murderers, rapists, terrorists, etc.

I read with interest your entire reply, and your others on this forum, but I could only locate three of the six. Perhaps you will share your particular situation so that I can understand your perspective.

WAT; your question brings up a lot more questions in my own mind. Is there, indeed, a way for my husband and I to send the correct message to my SD about morality, integrity and honesty when we did not live those values in the past? I don't know. It seems to me that the only way to be able to do that now would be by example--to show this child that, by the things we do now, not only in our relationship, but in relationships with others in our lives--both personal and associational, we are different people and understand how integrity and honesty can be rebuilt after it has crumbled. I've spent the latter part of four years trying to rebuild that crumbled integrity, trying to rebuild the moral person I once was. I guess it's kind of like rebuilding a marriage after an affair--you don't ever get the pre-A marriage back. You get a brand new marriage--that's the only way you can effectively "rebuild." Yes, it seems like an oxymoron. I cannot get that pre-A, moral person (yes I WAS a very moral person,) back. I can only try to find a "brand-new" me and build from that point. We can sit SD down and explain the affair and consequences to her until we are blue in the face, but it is just that--talk; or as you brought out, "Do as I say and not as I do." I really think that by showing her, and by living lives that have been rebuilt, will she "learn," so to speak, from our mistakes. Mistakes can bring growth--they don't always bring loss of soul or self worth.

LA: You made so many good points, and basically answered WAT's question to me better than I could. There is not much more I could add. I appreciate your insight and your thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are many stories here that clearly identify infidelity as the causative factor in a marital restoration, that is clearly a good consequence. It can also be the causative factor in ending a hopeless co-dependentcy... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are exactly the circumstances of my previous marriage. I was married to an emotionally and sexually abusive man. I became very co-dependent. I also felt very trapped in this marriage. Its duration was 5 years, but that was 4 years too long. This was not a good relationship, it was not a good marriage--it, truthfully and absolutely, had no redeeming merit at all. It simply was not worth saving. Because of my codependency and mental state throughout most of that marriage, I didn't have the emotional (nor the financial) means to leave the marriage. I did find the strength to do so two years after meeting my current husband. And he was the catalyst that gave me the strength to do so. No, I didn't leave my husband "for him." I simply saw the marriage and the danger in it for what it was. I did not leave my husband expecting MM to do the same. I had no illusions that our affair would evolve into anything. It had ended several times. (That's a whole other post...) What I'm trying to say is that not all affairs are cookie cutter patterns of each other. Each affair has its own dynamics and the causitive factors can vary.

This thread has really made me think about a lot of things. Most of them have been productive and very helpful. Learning to forgive yourself is a hard thing to do. There is a difference in forgiving and forgetting--just like there is when dealing with the infidelity of a spouse. I don't ever want to forget what I did. That would make me exactly what Nellie1 thinks I am. But I do have to forgive myself. That is what I am learning to do.

Take care,
my move

Yes, I have an agenda. It's to do whatever I can to minimize further adverse consequences of my son's Mom's adultery with the neighbor Dad less than a year after his brother's death, their subsequent marriage, and his continued exposure to that deviant, immoral situation.

LA...I am sure that is true. What I meant by agenda was simply local to this thread, the wording of your question implied things that are not true IMO....your "agenda" being (and maybe I am wrong) to suggest a marriage subsequent to infidelity is different than any other marriage..it is not.

....And yes, I am morally superior to any "practicing" infidel, along with being morally superior to murderers, rapists, terrorists, etc.

LA...Then apparently you are not a Christian. Based on a secular humanist standard, I would agree with you.

I looked up your story, I don't quess infidelity and divorce ever occur at a good time, but it must have been even more difficult occuring as it did....a certain amount of continued hard feelings is understandable. Sorry about your loss, for both you and your w. I have been fortunate in my children are ok, don't know how I would handle losing one of them.

Even if divorce was going to occur, your w could have (and should have), acted with more responsibility.

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Well, Lurking, you didn't reveal your story.

While I don't disagree with everything you have written here, your overall tone is that of an affairee, former or present, showing all the typical signs. Hmmmmm?

Especially if I'm correct about that, I'd like to hear more of how you conclude that a marriage subsequent to infidelity is no different than any other marriage. Here, by subsequent to infidelity, I am refering to marriage partners who met and planned to continue a relationship while married to someone else. In this case, taking vows after violating the same vows may well be the height of hypocrisy, and thus, shallow and meaningless.

WAT

Whoa, WAT,

You, by saying that any marriage vows taken by two people who met via an affair and each broke their own marriage vows can be nothing but shallow and meaningless. Aren't you lumping all OW/OM/OP into the same basket and basically saying all are alike? Immoral and without conscience? That NO affair has any individual factors that help distribute responsibility? That's like saying all BS's are alike too; that all are totally (and I mean TOTALLY) blameless of any fault in an affair leading to a breakup of a marriage. That is not a fair assumption.

You are not factoring in any amount of remorse or attempts at amends. LA is right--a marriage is a marriage. I'm certainly not going to trash my marriage simply because of its origins, and yes, I do expect fidelity from my husband. Our relationship grows (either stronger or weaker) just like anyone else's. To condemn us to a life of sack-cloth and ashes is highly judgemental. Like I said to Nellie1; I don't assume to know or judge you; please don't do the same to me.

High-school sweethearts who have been married for 100 years and are exceptionally happy have a right to expect fidelity in their marriage. I won't apologize for feeling that I do too.

I am sorry for your situation, and I hope things get better for you. Remember, I saw first-hand the destruction caused by an affair and my part in it.

Take care,
my move

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: my move ]</small>

LurkingAbout posts read, both in style and content (not to mention length) a lot like sad_n_lonely's.

According to Merriam Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com),

moralistic: characterized by or expressive of a concern with morality

morality: conformity to ideals of right human conduct

judgmental: characterized by a tendency to judge harshly

I don't doubt that I am moralistic and judgmental - and that is a good thing. As to being intractable, I particularly like this meaning in Merriam's Webster's: not easily manipulated. Thank you, I will take this description as a compliment.

Maybe that is why I AM the same person I was a decade ago, or probably even three decades ago - perhaps a bit wiser and certainly a lot less trusting, but essentially the same person.

I have certainly done occasional things during my life that I would advise my children against doing, but I would never advise my children to not do something unless I was no longer doing it.

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by my move:
<strong>Whoa, WAT,

You, by saying that any marriage vows taken by two people who met via an affair and each broke their own marriage vows can be nothing but shallow and meaningless. Aren't you lumping all OW/OM/OP into the same basket and basically saying all are alike?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yea, and no.

What can it be, other than hypocritical, to break vows only to take them again with the one who helped you break them?

No, I am not lumping all into the same basket, just describing those as hypocrits who meet, divorce their spouses, and then marry each other.

As for accusing me of not taking any responsibility for the poor state of my marriage before the affair, well, you haven't read enough of my posts.

It's instructive to read former and current WSs. I hope you've read me elsewhere where i've stated that this forum could not sustain itself without the participation of WSs. Please hang around and reply to me whenever you get a chance. I want to be challenged, lest I get careless.

WAT

Hi WAT,

In no way was I accusing you of not taking responsibility for any part of the breakdown of the marriage before the affair. My statement was a generalization. Some affairs (not all, obviously,) also include a portion of responsiblity on the part of the BS. Yes, these are few and far between. It is more than likely in most cases that the BS is pretty much blameless--at least for the affair itself. In those cases, I believe the WS chose a pretty cowardly way to deal with problems within the marriage for which solutions could be found and the marriage saved. Our affair falls in this category. He should have either saved or ended the marriage before beginning an outside relationship. I have no qualms about admitting that to you.

BTW, I do read most of your posts--in fact, I have printed a couple of the threads because I believe you have a lot of insight, and I've used some of those insights to try to better myself and our marriage. I thank you for those.

As far as our marriage being hypocritical, I won't deny that it is a hypocritical action to take and break vows with one person; leave that person for another and try to make the same vows with the new spouse. It is shameful, and I do take responsibility, along with my husband for creating this situation. But by the same token, we do now have a marriage that we want to save and we are working to do that. Also, by the time their marriage ended, I was completely out of the picture. The actual ending of the marriage was not done with the idea of him marrying his mistress. We reconnected later that year, developed our relationship again and then married. I know this doesn't excuse our affair or even make it any better. It is simply the way it happened. I do expect fidelity from him now; in spite of his subsquent affair last summer and his sexual addiction, he agrees. Hopefully, we can get there.

Thanks, WAT for posting these thoughts to me. I do plan on staying here at MB. I think debate is healthy, and I think I can learn alot from both the BS and the WS here on the board. I do see the situations from both angles.

Have a nice holiday,
my move

<small>[ November 27, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: my move ]</small>