<small>[ January 07, 2003, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

While you theory may describe a good number of guys, I am offended that you generalized so much and I can propose a very similar theory about females, but I won't because I know better.

Have you no recognition of the male BSs on this forum? Did you think about this before you wrote?

And what improvements have YOU made in your Plan A? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

<small>[ January 06, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

Baby Blue,
Although the reasons people cheat vary with each person, I have to agree with your "theory" on the cheating male.

I have recently ended a relationship with a MM. As strange as it seems, he basically explained the reason for his infidelity as being the "hunter" and needing to know that he still "had what it takes" to get women (besides being very confused)! There were 2 other women before me, and now he is "moving on" to someone else. In spite of having a beautiful family, he still has that "hunter" instinct; as a result, he charms and leads his "prey" to believe that he truly cares for them, making it nearly impossible to resist him. Unfortunately, I fell in love with him....now I'm dealing with the consequences.

I realize that women are capable of this behavior too, so I'm not in any way stereotyping all wandering men.

These guys are like big game hunters with a den filled with trophies of their "conquests". From what I've learned, it is all about THEM and for THEM. Without intending to break hearts, cause pain or tears they do.

Now where did I put that loin cloth and darn club...lol.

I tend to agree with Wat. At first I was a little offended. But, then I saw the humor in your post. And I also know there are women who are as you described as well.

I tend to think it is more about selfishness, lack of will power, lack of morals, and just plain ignorance.

regardless of ones personal affronts or agreements, you are correct, ask any genetic behaviourist. That of course does not mean one cannot choose to act against instinct, and clearly many do (for lots of good reasons), but genetics is genetics, and males are hardwired polygamists....lest we let women off the hook, women are hard-wired to cuckold. The reasons are simple, it is all about survival of the species and genetically evolved sexual behaviour. Fascinateing stuff when you read about these issues written by people who actually know the answers to these questions (behavioural scientists, not to be confused with psychologists).

<small>[ January 05, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

I like your theory! Of course, it's not fair to generalize...I also know a woman who fits into your theory!

Also not a comprehensive theory by any means...but I think it's easier for some men to say "it's just sex," than it is for women. Easier for guys to separate "sex" and "making love."

Lurking,
I am one of those behavioral geeky people, (what was I thinking? )

But for humans, we do have the higher thinking (should we choose to use it). Because of this higher thinking we do not have to look for the strongest to procreate with and protect (as females), nor from the male view the strongest female to bare the strongest and most offspring to carry on the line of genetics. But alas, we still do have those tendancies in our DNA and if "higher thinking" is not used we are reduced to those behaviors. Depending on the factors we learn along our growth in what is taught to us about what it is; to be a man or woman through conditioning of "our" pack leaders(parents, relatives, etc)we can have a variety of similarities to our lower natures. Humans are the easiest beings to condition, train and program. We still have basic flight, fight instincts, but everything else is up for grabs. I say that we are the easiest because of our "higher thinking" capabilities. Well, guess I have totally bored everyone, I'll shut up now.

In a degree we still use our basic natures in seeking a partner, women want to feel safe, and protected. Men still want a woman that is strong to bare children but it's not dependant on their survival in a whole as the lower animal instincts displays. O.K. I'll go sit in the corner now.

Your theory fits some males...mostly pretty immature ones. Most guys I've met are a bit more evolved than that, and able to go beyond acting on sheer instinct. Of course, more "evolved" guys are not immune from affairs either, but there tend to be deeper reasons than just "hunting instinct." If I thought my mate cheated just to see if he could "bag" another female & beat his chest, I think I'd forget any attempt to rebuild, and just let him & his instincts keep right on hunting in the woods...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 05, 2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Thanks, kam.

WAT

My wayward spouse said that all males want to spread their DNA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Baby,

As a guy, I find that attributing all of males failings to their need to "hunt" very simple minded. I was a batchelor into my 30's. I dated alot, why? Not because I enjoyed the "hunt", but I did enjoy the sex. I did enjoy meeting new woman. I did not find many that I wanted to marry or wanted to marry me (yup it is a two way street <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I didn't want to get married during that period.

So was it a "hunt"? No. Was it challenging? At the risk of offending the females on this site, No. It was very easy to meet and find woman to have sex with. There was no challenge at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So I do wonder about men needing to be the "hunter" when the environment is sooo target rich. I cannot imagine that some men find this a great challenge or victory. I surely cannot not imagine that they think they have accomplished something "rewarding" in their "hunt" when they are married.

I think the "hunt" has little to do with it. These are mainly men dissatisfied with their life for one reason or another, and bedding a woman is more fun than going to a movie alone or dealing with their problems at home. It is surely is less "challenging" than dealing with the problems at home.

So my short answer, I don't think the "hunt" is the reason. There are certain traits carried along from eons earlier, and a strong sex drive is one of them, but that doesn't require a new partner every time the urge arises.

Just as with women, the affair is a coming together of many factors. Many internal to the person, some external, and some very serindipidous (sp).

That is my $0.02.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ January 06, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Baby Blue:
<strong>
(Notice women aren't usually as caught up in the appearance of men, as men are in the appearance of women... maybe that's why men aren't more self-critical).</strong>

thats because women are usually caught up in the appearance of other women!!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">to your original point, i think that the hunter analogy is bunk. along with the "realization of stupidity or selfishness" for the most part i think those are disarming rationals that WS and BS alike put in play because they eliminate responsibility for the marriage.

it takes what is a huge symptom of a defunked marriage and turns it into a mistake, a selfish indulgence, or a character flaw that stand all on its own. while it is those things, above all else its a symptom of whats wrong in the marriage.

BabyBlue, I for one agree with you. Not all affairs are caused by unmet emotional needs, problems in the marriage, etc. etc. etc. Plenty of guys just have their eyes light up when they realize they can stay at work all day surrounded by cute flirty girls sucking up to them, and also realize that their trusting spouse will stay out of his way while he's "working" and ask no questions.

Some men do just love to collect women. It's fun and it's hugely ego-boosting. And some women collect men for the same reasons.

On another thread, someone wanted to know *why* a WS would ever go off and get personally involved with someone else. One WS admitted it was simply because "it felt good and I thought I could get away with it."

I don't think there's ever any other reason. If there was, there would be far more divorces instead of affairs because unhappy people would simply get out. But no; these people try to keep both their marriage *and* their pals-on-the-side for just as long as they possibly can.

"It felt good and I thought I could get away with it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:
<strong>I don't think there's ever any other reason.

"It felt good and I thought I could get away with it."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get the appeal of this line of thinking, this way there is nothing wrong with me, I did it all right and it was all their problem.

funny you feel this way and Harley doesnt, do you buy any of this MB stuff or just the parts that make you feel right.

PB, there are people who just are jerks and cant keep it in their pant i dont dispute that, i just cant for the life of me imagine that people married to them are here trying to SAVE the marriage.

sorry that is really snippy, but its really how i see it.

<small>[ January 06, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Baby Blue ]</small>

BB. although your analogy doesn't for all, it has very valid points in it for many. Yes, there are those who seek fulfillment due to needing the conquest. But as far as having a good looking woman on their arm, that isn't the reason always. Because many have wives that are far more beautiful than the OW. I found with my WS, H, that it's just the fact that he feels good thinking he accomplished something with a Woman and thinks nobody else could. That's his self esteem boost, however so stupid! LOL What he always denies or argues over is that these Women are a dime a dozen and anyone with the right flattery and charm can bed them. He likes to think he broke their defenses so that makes him a super male! He is still in denial over the last A, which was his second one to my knowledge! She was attractive, but obese and not in good shape physically even to have sex! So go figure.
True also, many have A's because there is an EN lacking in the marriage. But! The sad part if they can run tell someone else what's missing instead of the S. There is where the work should begin instead of creating so much pain and suffering. Many have no intention of divorcing their s, so all they do is get a temporary reprieve, while the problem at home still exist and is not going away until they sit down in honesty with S.
I believe most are way too intelligent to think this is fixing their problem. But it's a great excuse for them to go cheat! So they use it to the max. Therefore, it comes down to the selfishness, immorality, and is a cop out all the way around. Let's face it. All of us who have been married for some years could certainly find someone we're attractive to if we looked. And all could experience that thrill of new sex that fades after many years of being with the same person. I'm not saying the sex still isn't great! It's just the feeling, exilaration of new skin is exciting. The touch, etc is the feeling they had when we were first together! Hey, my H's touch doesn't send chills down my spine anymore either. But I still desire him and love making is wonderful! So while those who are cheating, remember, you aren't giving us that great panting breath anymore either! You think you're the only one that has realized that? You think you're the only one in the marriage that misses that? I think the WS's think they still knock us off our feet while we have lost that ability. It's all about newness!
So, for me, quit screwing around and going behind backs. BE up front about everything so your BS can either work on the problem with you, or can go find what you think is so great too! In other words, if you know you're going to cheat, divorce and give up you cake first!
This old mind set of what we don't know won't hurt is nonsense. BS's always find out. Then the problems you thought you had, are compounded 10 fold. There is no justifiable excuse for betrayal! NONE, NONE,NONE. It is just that. An excuse to do. Wrong choices are a decision one makes. There is always more than one choice and solution to any problem.
Um, if your car gets a flat, do you just go steal a new car? Is that your only choice? Hell no! You fix the tire! While I feel for the WS's here, it was you choice and a very selfish one. did it fix what was wrong in your marriage? Or did it cause more problems? Many will say it brought to light the problems and we're working on it now. But that's another way of guilt transference. Putting the onus on the BS. Trying to alway say it was their fault and they made you choose this way. BULL S---.
I do not believe there is a WS here who can honestly say they didn't know it would cause serious damage, and suffering to the S. They can't say they didn't know it might cause their marriage to go into divorce. They honestly were ready to accept the risk, or even throw away all in their life for this OP at the time. They know it and accepted the OP was worth more than their wife, husband and families. Step up to the plate!
If you cry you didn't know, then you're mentally challenged is all I can say. And I won't buy it.
All I know is I feel, know, that my Ws was willing to throw me in the garbage after 29 yrs. And had to think this ow was worth it all. That makes me feel worth nothing and that after all the years I gave of myself, that it meant nothing. The OP had to do nothing I've done for him. She only had to show up and enjoy herself. The least he could have done is ask her to go do his laundry before bringing his clothes home from their week vacation! Why am I the maid to do the wash? Isn't she capable or is she too good? Now you have it. She was too good to ask to do menial task. It would insult her to have to do the task that come with a partner. He did things for her he'd never do for me. Like getting his toenails in shape, a growth removed from face and worried so much that it would leave a scar. Oh yeah,he showered more for her too. And shaved. Wouldn't want to give her burns on her delicate fat.
Bought snorebegone so he wouldn't disturb her sleep either. I lived with the awful noise for years. No sleep hardly at times. I asked him to see a podiatrist about the nail problems too, many other things he ignored for me. And now I'm supposed to worry about what I did wrong to make him do this? Give me break please. I'm the one whose done for him all these years while the OW just got the icing.
I know who I am! I have been a giver all our marriage. Waited on him like he was the king. Pampered beyond reason. Faithful to the nth degree. Built his self esteem sky high! Never said no to love making, even have been the one to initiate and get rejected. I'm sexy, great body and even women walk up and compliment me on my looks! When he has me on his arm, he can strut like a peacock. But he admits he wasn't embarrassed to be seen with her. But says she should have left the nightie on as there were rolls and rolls. And to think I've worried all our years about keeping my body good for him, and never had he come home from work that I wasn't freshly showered, made up, hair done, dressed clean and nice. Cook every night and it's right on time.
I have never let myself go in any area for him!
Oh, sorry. LOL Baby blue, I believe in the hunter instict very much for many men. And women who allow themselves this excuse.
LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Baby Blue:
<strong>Somewhere in one of my posts, I stated that this was an oversimplification and that it boiled down to low self esteem. Some people DO cheat to boost their ego, even when there is NOTHING wrong with their marriage, or at least nothing major.</strong>

even if there is something major wrong with the marriage it doesnt "Justify" the A or give it legs.

it does explain how the problems go unresolved and how it creates the vunerability we are trying to avoid by applying the MB principles.

Case in point... I paid "too much" attn to my children. That was MY sin. My H could not admit that he was jealous of his children ( he was NOT the type of man who would be jealous of his own children.. his words).

this action created vunerability

His self esteem was low...(that is NOT my fault! I cannot help how he feels about himself, I always complimented him, encouraged him, etc. His basic self esteem is something that was wrong with HIM, NOT our marriage)

so if he were to reject you in favor of someone else it wouldnt (didnt) effect your self esteem? dont discount the effect you have in other peoples lives.

He cheated because "it felt good" to know he could "still attract someone".

this is probably exactly true.

would you disagree that if he felt like he was "still attracting YOU" that it would have still felt good and the things we discuss today would be entirely different?

had he not been vunerable would the outcome have been the same?

That does not make him a low down dirty neanderthal who has no respect for himself or me or our family. It makes him a man, a human, who didn't feel good about himself, and was weak and found a way that helped him feel good about himself.Was it the right way? NO! It was a selfish and stupid and shallow way to boost his self esteem/ego/reaffirm his sexuality.

double edged sword wasnt it!

But he has acknowledged this, is in therapy working on HIM, and we're in therapy together working on our marriage.

I'd suggest that you did a wonderful thing that made it possible you accepted your part in the marriage and created a safe place for him to heal.

Am I the perfect wife? No.

your sounding more like it to me than i've been seeing here of late!

But I certainly didn't do anything to deserve this.

nobody does, yet i remember that exact thought running through my head for so long that i couldnt believe anything else.

And there was nothing so terribly wrong in our marriage. All he had to say was "hey honey, lets take off for a romantic wkend sans kids." I would have jumped at the chance.

once again i am impressed by your willingness to participate and do things that would have made such a huge difference to me. anyone would be blessed to have these qualities in their spouse.

Actually, I brought it up, and tried to plan little dates and escapes, HE said "no, marriage is supposed to be like this,

I assumed that it was me as well, that my wife was living the way she wanted to and who was I to want it any different. we never even had a conversation like that, but i imagine my responce would have been very similar. as long as i thought YOU were happy with the way things were i would just continue to give it to you that way without reguard to what it was doing to me.

I'm content, why can't you be?"

not sure but id bet he believed you were suggesting it because you were trying to make him happy and not yourself which doesnt work for someone who is trying to make you happy.

Well, maybe because I didn't have the 'outlet' (ie affair) that he did on the side.

did the A awaken needs in him?? things he didnt even know he wanted or needed? things he set aside and denied himself in persuit of making others happy? (no defined sence of self?)

But I'm not ready to 'kick him to the curb' yet. And I am truly suprised that so many people are offended that men might actually think this way on some level. Even Dr. Harley states that one of the top 5 EN's of MEN is the APPEARANCE of their WIFE!

men are visually stimulated as a general rule, so i dont think its too surprising that A.S. is a need for men, what makes a woman attractive to a man is different for all for me how my wife is treating me at a given time dramatically affects how she appears to me.

I think that what your keying into here is that there is a part of me that connects my wifes willingness to attract me to her as part of A.S. need. if she is trying to attract me, she must want me still.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ladyLou:
<strong> I do not believe there is a WS here who can honestly say they didn't know it would cause serious damage, and suffering to the S.</strong>

probably not but i bet you can find a bunch who could say they tought it didnt matter that their S didnt give a ratts behind about them so what difference does it make.

right or wrong thats how i felt. not everyone is the shining example of the superior wife you present yourself as.

That makes me feel worth nothing and that after all the years I gave of myself, that it meant nothing.

just remember how you feel isnt his fault (see BB's post about self esteem)

I bet it does, I am saddend by this your right no one deserves that.

The OP had to do nothing I've done for him. She only had to show up and enjoy herself. The least he could have done is ask her to go do his laundry before bringing his clothes home from their week vacation!

I wonder what running this tape over and over in your mind is doing to your chances of having a successful recovery is?

And now I'm supposed to worry about what I did wrong to make him do this? Give me break please.

only if you believe in the MB principles, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome.

you have changed how you are in the marriage the question is, Is it a change that improves the marriage, or is it a change to punish your S?

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