The other thread had 216 posts on it, so I decided it was time to start a new one. I'm sure many of you don't know who I am. I'm a person who is now divorced due to my infidelity. Like others here, I so want my now ex-spouse to give me another try. I asked him to 'try again' before the divorce was final, but I didn't break up with OM until July. Divorce was final in August. My exH said in August that he had less hope for me and him right AFTER D-Day than he did in August of this year. DDay was in February 2001!

It seems I haven't made much progress, but I'll keep trying to again 'earn' his love as I love him very much and feel terrible, beyond words, for the damage I did. What a horrible mistake. I still at times can't believe that this is my life.

I last wrote here on the fifth--no response(JL, Sharon, Kily, Checkers, TMCM, Lisa,ETC,I miss you all! ) but I wanted you to see that posting of a few days back, now--

posted January 05, 2003 12:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for letting me vent here, the past few days. I sound a bit like a rat..or I did the other day...but I'm sure you all realize it's my own anger coming out, which is truly directed at me, not him!

In the light of this morning I now feel a bit more patient, again, and thinking that I just need to be even more patient.

I need to keep remembering how long this A went on, and even though I did ask my H to consider a reconciliation as long as 20 months ago, my H didn't SEE any evidence of changed behavior until this past July.

The hard part for me is knowing what to do with my feelings of love for my exH. I need to not think about him perhaps as much, as it makes me cry so easily when he ignores me completely. I won't lose those feelings for him, but I need to curb them a bit for self-protection. I am sure that BS's go through this all the time.

I'll continue SHOWING my love for him, with small gestures . He absolutely seems to HATE to hear from me at all. I'm so dislike feeling that rejection, over and over.

I sent him that gift. I'm sure by now he's received it. Haven't heard a word about it. I'll eventually have to ask him if he received it, of course.

UPDATE--January 9-TODAY
I did get an email thanks for that gift from the exH. He said I didn't have to do it, but thanks anyway. He also brought over a substantial food gift he'd received, so it's here for us to enjoy.
That was progress, right?

A bit more progress came later on this week-
Our daughter asked him to help with home improvement 'stuff', so he was here for 3 hours two days in a row. It turned into a huge job, and he spent a lot of time here fixing it. He had phone help from people at his job, too--in solving it. It would have cost me a fortune to have a professional fix it.

I was at work most of that time he was here, couldn't be helped--as he got here very early in the day. I did see him a bit each day and he was friendly, more talkative than usual, and he did seem relaxed. He even added to my conversation with my daughter!! I couldn't believe it. I feel like there might be some hope, after all. Perhaps I'm simply just projecting my own feelings, but I don't think so. I asked him to stay and eat, but he said he'd eaten a late lunch with the kids so he wasn't hungry.

He needs to return to finish up this one 'job' that my daughter got him into doing. Any suggestions?

The time he was here in the home with me was the happiest time I've had in the past two plus years, since he left--except for the time I spent with him at our son's school event in the fall. I feel very peaceful when he is near me, and I don't know if telling him that puts too much guilt on him, or not. It's hard to explain, but that's how I feel.

Thanks to all here who've helped so much. I 'm very busy at work now so I haven't been around as much. I will catch up as time permits! Take care everyone.

Thanks again , all insight is welcome.

God Bless,
H_P

Hopeful-

The ice around your husbands heart will melt with the things you are doing. My WW will admit no infedelity. No wrong doing, justifies, lies etc...

As you say on so many of your posts, you wish your ex-H would be more like so many of the BS's on here and want to be with their Wayward despite the infedelity and if the condition of the marriage could improve for both parties. I wish so much that my WW would simply face the music that she wronged me. Now she is like you and is considering reconsiliation but my heart is still hard due to the fact she isn't changed. Steve Harley says that "unless you know EXACTLY why you had an affair, the likelihood of it happening again is VERY high.

You have gone thru the gamet of emotions and your behavior is EXACTLT what I would want and over time I would love you again (But thats just me) Unless my WW shows your type of heroic behavior and is consistent with it over many many months (perhaps even a year) I will not ever feel safe. I and I won't be married in fear.

Don't try and tear down the wall, one brick at a time Hopeful!

Take care

Hi H_P,

Sorry I haven't posted to you. And I need to get off so I will write when I have time. Just know I am thinking and praying for you.

Sharon

Hey, H_P

Sounds like progress. GREAT. Just keep it up. I know it is hard but with a little show like this from H it should be enough to keep the ole love bank ka-chinging. When he returns why not order in pizza to thank him and so everyone can have a little informal get-together. DON'T ASK HIM. just DO IT. I think at this point in my relationship with my H if he asked I would say NO to almost everything, thats just where I am. But if he just DID nice things. What am I gonna do?

Hang in there girl. I think 2003 is going to be a great year. I for one am glad to kiss 2002 goodbye. I feel like really starting over and the new year is the perfect way to make the change.

Anyway H_P, I will keep posted on you. I don't often feel like posting my own stuff anymore. There just doesn't seem to be a need or desire on my part. Hopefully my D will move quickly, and I can get this all in the past and look completely toward the future.

Love ya,

Sharon

Hi HP-

I'm so happy to hear the news. Just remember, he WILL withdraw again so don't get too disappointed! I think it's a sign of things to come. Good Work.

I'm just wondering how much of his actions are related to the email that you sent - flaming him for the way he treated your son. Perhaps that os what he needed. To see you as a confident woman that is firm about what she wants. Is it possible that the weeping, pleading version of you is just scaring the heck out of him?

Nice to hear from you.....You've been in my thoughts.

Hi H_P

Don't worry if we don't all post as often as we like, I'm always thinking of and wondering how my MB Superstars are doing!! I also think it was a good thing to start a new thread, as sometimes they become a bit unmangeable, and if someone new came here, they may not feel like reading through a long post.

Anyway, I think this is a very positive sign that your H has been "happy" to be around you and the family and help with some household chores. I agree with both Sharon and Kily, the pizza is a good idea, and the children will enjoy that, but equally he will probably pull back. Neil used an analogy with my H of being a rubber band, reaches out a certain way and then snaps back.

Sadly, my own situation has taken a very grave downturn, but I will remain focussed on improving myself and learning more about me, and this is what you too must do. For me, I think Spanish classes (after much threatening for a number of months!), continue my councilling, and maybe a bit of voluntary work. A while back I was invited to work with a woman's voluntary group (woman who are subjected to violence), but I could not commit to the dates they needed for their committee. I may relook at this too.

H_P I am sure that whatever happens between you and your H, you will find a better person inside you, a person you are proud of, a person who has grown and learnt. Hopefully, your H will be able to recognise that too.

Wishing you well from London (no more snow, but still cold!).

Lisa

H_P,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Your Daughter is doing what I suspected needed to be done. She can be the intermediary without him having to address his issues or feel as if he is a sucker for helping. I do suspect your strong email was a help. He probably needed someone to kick him off dead center.

In that regard honesty is a GOOD thing. He needs to hear honest, heart felt things. I am not sure he is ready to hear how you feel when he is around, but H_P if the opportunity presents itself to tell him, do just that.

Alot of what you are doing is like cutting oil. You put it on, and then you have to let it work its way into the rusted and unused hinge. Time and patience for you young lady. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You will know when it is time to do anything else.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks to all of you for your replies and support. I do feel there is more positive hope than there was two weeks ago, but I sure do have some bad times too. I know this sounds crazy to say it again, but I STILL wake up and can't believe this is my life. It's like I was truly 'hijacked' by aliens for a part of my life, when I was in the A. I'm not saying it to make an excuse, it is just how I see it.

Rlyhurtin
Thanks for your reply. I looked for your thread several days ago, and couldn't find anything. I was wondering how you were doing. Where are you posting now? Thanks, Rly, for your kind encouragement of saying the ice around his heart will melt with the things I'm doing. I hope and pray so.

I remember thinking, in June, that my exH would take me back right away if I ended it with OM. What was my problem? Too much ego?? I can't believe I was that stupid, to think he'd just say, "Sure, come back now, into my life." Maybe in time he WILL forgive me, and love me again.

RLY, perhaps in time your wife will think as I do. She sounds to be in 'deep fog'. In the meantime, you need to take good care of yourself and your children. (daughters, right?) Perhaps she'll go with you to counseling, as you mentioned she wants a reconciliation. Give it all time.

YOu said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have gone thru the gamet of emotions and your behavior is EXACTLT what I would want and over time I would love you again (But thats just me) Unless my WW shows your type of heroic behavior and is consistent with it over many many months (perhaps even a year) I will not ever feel safe. I and I won't be married in fear.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa of London read that too! Thanks, Rly, so you want a YEAR of consistent behavior. That helps me so much, reading that. It is like when someone stops drinking, or using drugs--I've heard experts say that the spouse should see if they're really off the substance by waiting at least a year for proof. I need to remember that.

Thanks too Rly for your analogy of one brick at a time, not all at once in tearing down the wall around my exH. I appreciate it.

Sharon,
Thanks for taking time out of your life to answer me, too.

You're right, I'll just order that pizza without asking.

You said,



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> think at this point in my relationship with my H if he asked I would say NO to almost everything, thats just where I am. But if he just DID nice things. What am I gonna do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's interesting, knowing that you do come here and you WANT to save your marriage. You'd still say 'No'. I suppose it's natural, when we've been wronged so deeply.

I was surprised he did write a thanks for the gift, but at least he didn't say 'Don't do this ever again." I guess the door isn't shut completely, is it?

It's nice to know you're reading here, even if you're not posting. Please do sometime, so I can know how you're feeling, too. Sometimes Sharon I try to get all of this out of my head, but it just doesn't go away. I so want to rebuild with exH, but it seems so impossible in certain moments. Hang in there, too!
Kily,
Thanks too for responding, Kily. You're right when you say he'll withdraw again. I'm sure he will.

I've wondered too if the email I sent him kind of awakened him in some way, that I wasn't going to stand by passively with everything. I really don't know. I mentioned in it too that I was upset he hadn't called to wish the kids a nice new year--and it was already the 2nd of Jan.

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it possible that the weeping, pleading version of you is just scaring the heck out of him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That could be, yes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
One of the days he came over, he even did another repair that he'd coached our eldest son to do! It involved more work in the garage, etc. I'm so glad that exH did it, as I don't have the same confidence in son's abilities, nowhere near!

How are things going for you? I will look sometime this weekend for your thread!

Lisa,
Thanks for your thoughts, too. It sounds like you and I have such similar feelings through all of this. Thanks for sharing Neil's analogy of the rubber band. I need to remember that!

I read and responded on your thread this morning. Please, it's not grave yet. It never will be, until your H remarries!! That is how I see it, perhaps I am the eternal optimist.

It's good you've made plans of things to do, to keep 'busy'. I mentioned on your thread that it's the first time since the late seventies I've been without a man's romantic love. It's an adjustment, as for me 'love' is everything. But, one can certainly focus on so many other things. The longer that exH sees I'm alone and loving him still, it will help him see I'm serious about a reconciliation.

My eldest brother pointed out to me that I shouldn't give up hope at all . AS he pointed out, by this time exH could be remarried even! So, I guess we have to be patient, Lisa. This is hard for me to do, but it's so necessary.

I hope my exH does see that I'm a better person. Interesting thing happened when he was here. He asked me, "Is it okay if I leave these rooms like this, without electricity until tomorrow?" This meant there'd be no internet, etc, no power in bathroom #2. I said, "Sure , it's fine with me."

He's still so polite and thoughtful in this sort of way. Maybe he thought I needed computer/internet for work, I don't know. Maybe in the past, when we were first married , I would have been more upset about it. I don't think so though, I've never been a shrew about things. But, perhaps he doesn't know me anymore at all!!! Either way, it was very nice of him to ask.

J.L.,

You're right, JL, my daughter is doing what needed to be done. The odd thing is, I certainly didn't ask her to do it, and she doesn't know I wrote him an upset letter regarding the furniture-building, new year's issue. Interesting.

Do you think my email to him made him mad, or just made him think? I feel like at this point I don't know WHAT he thinks and feels.

I feel still so at a loss to know how much to say to him. It was rather shocking, while he was here, that he chimed in and added to the conversation with my daughter. He truly appeared to be very comfortable to be here again in the home. Daughter said he even had to venture back into our bedroom area (my perfectionistic tendencies tell me it should have been CLEANER!) so that was perhaps quite a big STEP for him, on some sort of level. (He hasn't been in there since October 2000)

I haven't communicated with him since the final day he was here,repairing. He'll come back one day this coming week. I feel I walk a fine line between bugging, pressuring him--and letting him know how thankful I am. Perhaps a quick call of 30 seconds 'thanks' later on this weekend is better than the 'chicken,safe' email way.

Thanks again to all of you, for your help and insight. I can't say enough how helpful you've all been to me.

Take care,
H_P

Hi H_P,

Just read your post to me. Don't worry about putting me on the defensive. I am hear to learn and listen. I am not sure I am here to rebuild my M anymore though. More just to see what is going on with my friends.

I was telling a good friend that I was ready for the D, because things had changed. She asked "Why have you found out more about him?" and I said "No I found out more about ME!"

H_P don't let my change of heart discourage you. I think as far as our relationships go there are some MAJOR differences in why I think there is a chance for you. Here is my perspective. I don't know you or your H except what I read here so I may be WAY OFF base here. In my view YOU were the major giver in your R. Also the emotional one the one who valued your R more from an "I need this R it is part of me" standpoint. That was me. My H was like your H stand offish, and unemotional. Closed I guess is a good word. So that right there changes the paradigm. YOU- the giver cheated. HIM (my H) the taker cheated. I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make. I have started to see that maybe I don't want to give my all to someone who takes and drains me dry. This last year has drained me dry. That is why I don't know if there is a chance for us anymore. I don't think my H can make the fundamental changes to be more of a giver. You however don't need your H to change to want him back. And I think all he needs is to know that you are serious and sincere.

Anyway, take care. Don't let this stuff I am saying get you down. I am happy. I am satisfied and I am ready to get on with my life. That is why I don't want to delay the D. It is dragging me down. I want it over. You have to realize it would take ALOT for us to recover and it certainly isn't going to happen with him living in Ill. And unlike you, my H has NEVER ONCE said one single word or showed ANY interest in getting back together so........

Take care and keep up your GREAT plan A. You are the best and deserve the best. Remember that

Love,

Sharon

hopeful_person, I wake up everyday hoping for my WW to act as you are now.

I am sending you a {{{H_P}}} in that you may get what you want and that your family might be restored in 2003.

Neil.

Thanks,Sharon and Neil!

It means so much to me!! I don't have much time now here.

Neil, your reply was especially heart-lifting, thanks!

Sharon,
Thanks for explaining your feelings/situation to me. I understand better now, completely.

JUST WANTED TO SHARE SOME 'kinda' good news...
For the first time in ages, exH actually answered an email where I didn't ask a direct child-related ? that needed answering. I had sent him a long note thanking him for help around here. HE wrote back you're welcome, and he also complimented our daughter on her household stuff.

Quite amazing. Many other 'thanks' I've sent off have NEVER been acknowledged at all.

Is this progress, or am I just hanging on to hardly a thing? I mean it, it feels like progress, but then again--it is so little that he did,but a lot compared to before. Please MB Buddies...what do ya think?

Take care,
H_P

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

HP-

The door is opening. Just don't force it open. Let him come out and test the waters. Wait a little bit and see what happens. I think if you handle this correctly, he might accept the next time there is an invitation for coffee extended.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good Work.

HIP HIP HOORAY!!!! SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD DAY!!!

THINKING OF YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sharon

Hi Everyone,

I haven't seen exH since a week ago Wednesday, when he did the repairs. He did more yesterday. I called home from work to see what I could bring by, for dinner. My sons said he had invited them out to dinner already. So I asked son to please tell him I would bring something home, and he said he wasn't interested in the first food choice I named. He then said , "I don't know" to pizza---and then he said, "I'm not hungry yet."

I got home about 15 minutes later and all of the males were gone, including my exH. My daughter was still here, she was going to eat with me. I hadn't stopped to get food as the answer had been no, and I know exH well enough that he isn't the sort to eat without hunger--unlike many people.

I said to my daughter, "I thought they weren't hungry, and they already left." When the boys came over later I asked them if they'd eaten right away. He said they'd hung out at their dad's place awhile, before eating.

I'd wanted to ask exH a computer question, I'll have to do that another time. He is an expert in the program about which I have a question!

It seems this man was comfortable here, the other day. He however doesn't wish to make any sort of sign to show he wishes to be near me at all.

Last night I had a dream, AGAIN, that he and I were reconciled. It was beautiful, and we were even on a helicopter ride in Hawaii. We've never been there. During our marriage, we never had any extra money to travel anywhere. Now we would, of course, but we don't have each other.

Any suggestions on how to continue showing him I love him, and I could be good in his life? He seems perfectly happy alone, the way things are.

I feel if I could 'trap him' alone somewhere...this is pure imagination...on a deserted island, for example, things could be better in a short time. The problem is--he doesn't wish to be near me. HUGE PROBLEM IN THE PROCESS, right? C'est la vie.

Suggestions, again? Please, especially the males here. What would you want to happen, if in the dark recesses of your heart you did have some sort of feeling...but you didn't want to be forced into acting on them? He wants to think it's his idea. (Did anyone see My Big Fat Greek Wedding--remember how the women said they had to make it the papa's idea, but they planted it?)

Thanks for all your support.

Must dash now,
H_P

Kily-Thanks for your support. You're right, he certainly has pulled back. I am beginning to think that his kindness in helping out was simply a fluke, and not any sort of indication of feelings of any sort at all. It was just for the kids, so that's fine--Indeed!!

Sharon,
Thanks to you too for your words of encouragement.

Aw H_P,

Will you please just CHILL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are worrying about things that you cannot control. How do you show your exH you love him??? Simple, just be loving toward him in the things you say and the things you think. When he is ready he will receive the message. You won't know when that will happen but it will.

I suspect he fears you more than he dislikes you. In fact, if he disliked you it would be easier for him. I suspect that gradually the fear will go. Perhaps in the near future you will need to TELL him that he is going to sit and listen to you and you can then lay it all on him. That day may be soon. I suspect he views what he is doing as helping the family, specifically the kids. That is good. Write him a letter and tell him how much you appreciate all that he is doing. This would be appropriate following your other email about your son. You were right to send that one as well.

Do you see what I am saying? Give him honest feedback on how he is doing with his children. Give him honest feedback on how he is doing with you.

H_P, there are a variety of outcomes to this. Most are not WHAT you want. But, they can all be positive IF you continue your efforts. I think it is far too early to see much beyond what you have indeed seen. I don't have much time but if you haven't read SKM's Chronicles in the RECOVERY section search for them and read them. It details her recovery from HER affair. Why is that important? Because although your exH is the BS he is going through some of the same steps I am sure. So did you.

Have patience. You are doing better than you think. ANd H_P it is worth remembering that "as we dream, so we go." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, JL, for your reply! I will try and CHILL, but it's hard. I've wanted to undo all of this for a long time, and it has weighed on my mind so very much.

But you're right, this is stuff I can't control.

Thanks for the support, you said when he's ready to receive my message, he will. I frankly don't see that happening at this point. He just seems to have shut me out.

I hope and pray you're correct when you say:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suspect he fears you more than he dislikes you. In fact, if he disliked you it would be easier for him. I suspect that gradually the fear will go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if he'll let me TELL him anything, JL. But I will certainly try it sometime in the near future.

I'll look for those chronicles of SKM. I take it that SKM is the name, not an abbreviation. I do feel I've gone through a process, too. I also feel that as each day passes, that's another day I haven't been allowed the joy of having a partner to love, and one who loves me. It makes me feel that life has cheated me completely, and I brought myself to this point. It's ironic, the affair began due to my own feelings of loneliness, and who knows what else--and now I'm lonely beyond words for my husband . Is that what is called poetic justice?

I like that, "As we dream, we go." I hope it is true in this case.

take care...Thanks for your support and encouragement.
God bless you JL--
H_P

H_P,

Here is SKM's Chronicles SKM

I think you will see how long it takes for people to get the heads straight. I was going to send you to read MortarMan's latest posts, but I think it will depress you.

H_P, I think that if you give up or do nothing your H will be moving on and leave this behind. It is normal. What isn't normal is that the WS hangs in there and works on things. Leaves the door open and allows TIME for the healing to occur. Then the outcome can be different. IF MortarMan's W doesn't come around he is moving on and you can see by how he is thinking he may be a lot like your exH. BUT, one thing is different. Your exH hasn't found anothere woman as MM seems to have or Kily's exBF has.

All I know is that one needs to leave doors open, do their best, and see what happens. As for being lonely H_P I do think I have a clue. But, I also think it is time that you realize that what defines you is not another persons love. It is you and how you treat other people.

I can see both sides of this issue. But, I can also see that your exH doesn't see how UNIQUE you are. For most WS's move on, or simply come back because it is more convenient than the alternative. MM is facing that question with his W. Your exH may be also dealing with the "how to determine what is real" question.

So I see that you do have hope. I see that your exH hasn't done things that completely slammed the door (marrying someone else for example), but he is not ready to trust himself and you, YET.

Something will have to soften his heart and this generally only happens with time.

So, hang in there for awhile. It will work out as it is supposed to.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,
Thanks for the link to SKM's Chronicles. I read a bit last night, and I'll look more today. I appreciate it so much!

Yes, it does take time to get heads straight. I think at times I worry as I know how my exH is. He doesn't spend much time thinking about things, at all. He always told me that, and I feel it's apparent through all of this stuff. He is not one to analyze, and he's said so, himself. So be it, I can't change him, and I love him just the same.

Thanks for your kindness/observation of saying I'm unique in wanting to work things out with my exH. How do I convey that to him? I think at this point he is feeling bitter, and feels that I want him mainly for a better lifestyle than I have now with the children.

I am hoping that time heals my exH , and I have had a few glimpses of some small types of healing. I am worried that he will find someone else, in the interim, but if that happens--I can't control it. Then I'll have to tell myself, I did my best--and that's all I can do.

JL's words:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for being lonely H_P I do think I have a clue. But, I also think it is time that you realize that what defines you is not another persons love. It is you and how you treat other people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting--and yes I realize I'm not defined by another person's love. I knew that years ago. I was never one of those girly-girls who had to have a date, or what not, to feel 'alive'. I am talking about the beauty of a close, intimate relationship that I miss--and I don't just mean SN. It's something I haven't been without for a long, long time. It is actually getting easier now, than it was at first.

So wise,too, as you said, "It will work out as it is supposed to." This is what I need to remember.

I've never pursued a man in my life, but I will continue. It is so very hard to be rejected, and after the first few times it almost seems like masochism to keep asking again. But, I will do it.

Take care, and thanks to all for your support,
H_P

H_P,

What do you think your exH would say if you said: "I know you fear getting involved with me again. But, I would very much like a relationship with you. Not necessarily marriage although that would be great from my point of view, but simply to be with you from time to time. Do you think we could try this?"

You are right he doesn't trust you or himself. It is safer to do what he is doing. But, perhaps a slightly different approach would work. I don't know if he has a sense of humor or not. But, if he does, radical honesty can be done in a humorous way. I could see you asking the questions above and then "telling him sooner or later you are going to jump his bones." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, the point is that honesty is crucial. It also needs to be done with a point in mind. It may be that your H is the kind that won't do anything, but wouldn't fight you if you went over to his place, grabbed him by the lapels and said "Buster we are going to eat and you WILL enjoy it." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am serious. If you did that he is at no risk. He could tell everyone you "forced" him to go. He didn't see how he could refuse without going to jail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sometimes, it is necessary for people to be "forced" (Yeah right?) to do things. Men, do like this in their own way. Men, aren't completely dumb and when W's try to manipulate them they generally know. They allow it because they enjoy the fact that the woman is doing something ACTIVE toward them.

As you said you have never chased a man before, not even your H. But, he may need chasing. I can see two obvious outcomes. One, it wears him down and he agrees. Two, he really really doesn't want any relationship with you and it will force him to admit as much. In either case you are out of limbo.

So think about this. He may need a strong firm woman to LEAD him out of this. That would be you, H_P. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

HP and JL -

I absolutely LOVE it! I can just picture HP showing up at her H house in black leather with the chains and whips! Darling you are coming with me to dinner tonight and you WILL like it! Snap of the whip! H's mouth hits the floor as he stands there salivating over the things that will happen after dinner....WAHOO! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(Guys it's been much 2long so please forgive the fantasy sequence here!)

Wow that was fun.....

Seriously, he responded positively when you were aggressive with your email about the kids. You will have your answers if you play this out the way JL suggested. It's been almost 5 months now.

How long are you going to sit passively and wait for him to come to you? We need to figure out a new plan of attack.....

Hope I made you smile...

Oh My!!

We have Kily fired up now. H_P, I think Kily's plan of attack could be very very interesting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Perhaps a bit kinky, but very interesting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I can sort of see the black leather and whip myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And his face??? Oh Yeah!

This could get out of hand, but could be fun. Plan away ladies. This should be really really good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Hopeful-

Hang in there hon. You are doing everything right! I am so proud of you. You certainly have what it takes to make your ex-husband happy. I almost can guarantee he will see that soon. Yes I know he is hurting and I know he is certainly hesitant. Probably because he feels like he may not be able to make you happy. But if/when you restore your lives together, the best thing you can do is acknowledge his attempts at meeting your needs, acknowlegde them with smiles, with hugs, with kisses, and most importantly by meeting his. Hope, you are doing great. Your husband knows it too. There is alot he is dealing with and he hasn't gone and healed completely. Have you ever told him that "You made the biggest mistake of your life." "That he was the most important person in your life"--If you have not do. Most importantly have you told him point blank that "you want him" and promised fedelity in the future? You probably have all of these things, but I guarantee thats what he wants to hear, then see! You are doin wonderfully. I'll bet you that by December 31, 2003 you will have renewed your vows! Keep up the good work! Don't let the little set backs get you down. Take it from me, once you are in a BS's shoes...There is a thick fog that envelops us too!

Be Good~

H_P,

Hi, just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you. I guess from what I read things are still up and down with you. That's okay. Hang in there as the others said. I hope you are handling all this stress, and I know it is tremendously stressfull, okay. Just an update on me. The D is coming along. I have been dating someone. Things are going well. I am really happy for the first time in a long time, and not just because of the (someone).. But that does help.

Take care girl and I will talk to you later. I will pray for the best for you and your family.

Sharon

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: footballwidow ]</small>

H_P- I've followed your posts for awhile now and it really sounds like you're making progress, though maybe not as fast as you'd like. The reason I've been so interested in your story is because I'm now D'd and still very much in love with and hoping for a possible R with my XW, who was also the WS. I can't recall what the situation with your XH was like in the first few months after the D, but surely things have improved? The fact that he's now comfortable spending significant amounts of time at your house is positive. What the others have mentioned would indeed be a BOLD tactic but perhaps worth considering. You seem like the assertive type whereas he sounds a bit passive. As JL mentioned, the big thing would be that you'd KNOW where things stand with him and perhaps that would give you further guidance for the future. Good luck!

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

Hi H_P

Sorry, I haven't dropped by in a while - have been so wrapped up in my own stuff, and also trying to ration my time here on MB - pretty addictive isn't it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that I think you're doing brilliantly well. You've already made some improvements in just a short time. You are steadfast and true in knowing what you want, and I think this will shine through to your XH with time. He will see that you are not about to run off with anyone else, he will see your remorse, he will see your willingness to try to mend things between you.

As I once said to you, you of course have your children in common, and that is a big factor. H and I don't have that - we don't seem to have such strong ties. If he loved me as he said he did, he'd give it a try.....

Keep the good work up and wishing you well from very rainy London

Lisa

HI All,

Thanks to JL, KILY, Sharon, Litchfield, Rlyhurtin, and Lisa--for your posts. (I'm going off my memory so please forgive me if someone was skipped!)

I don't have time to address each of your ideas/suggestions at this moment, nor do I have privacy here to do so. Thanks though, they're very interesting. You are all a great support to me.

I will write more later--my job keeps getting busier and busier. I feel at times as if the 'Peter Principle" is starting to apply. (I think that is what it's called--you rise to your own level of incompetency?) Plus--sick again (I'm sure all this sickness is due to my hidden/suppressed sadness over the D) this week, but going to work.

I did though want to thank all of you for your good thoughts, etc.

Nothing new this week, except he did call to see if he could bring the support check by--or could he bring it the next day. This was nice, he didn't forget the date. I was lying down, sick with yet another cold--and I told him the next day would be fine. Perhaps a mistake== but I was sick, feverish, and I told him so. I asked him a few 'car' questions, and that was that. I was upbeat and sunny. Perhaps I'll be nominated for that Academy Award?

Thanks again, more later--

H_P

H_P,

Hope you are feeling better. Just giving you my support and prayers.

Sharon

HP -

Sorry to hear that you are sick again. I think you are right that it is related to your sitch. I'm a firm believer in attitude and health.

Sounds positive that he wants to drop in. Small steps.

Hope you feel better. I've been missing you.

Hi everyone,
I 'm having trouble copying and pasting, so I hope my reply makes sense in light of your postings to me.

Nothing new this week, saw exH yesterday at the door to say goodbye to the boys for exH's weekend. He was 'coldish', as he always is on the Friday 'pass off' . I was light and conversational, but only got one word answers. The 'exchange' took one minute. The boys always rush quickly out, as if trying to keep exH and I from talking. It is odd--protection for their dad, who knows?

JL-
Your ideas are interesting! I like your suggestion to tell him what I want, and that I know he doesn't trust me--and that any R is fine with him--not necessarily marriage.

As far as grabbing him and 'forcing' him to go out, it wouldn't work with him. He is so, so stubborn. He doesn't like being told what to do, ever. I 've never felt my exH was 'subject' to womanly wiles the way most men are. He used to tell me he felt threatened by the fact that I was more 5exually interested than him, overall. I feel a blatant seduction thing would bother him, although in a way deep down I think he would like it. It's like when you want something, but you don't want to admit you do.

I don't have the confidence I used to have, as my body isn't what it was. I used to be a real 'head turner', and now I'm a bit chunky--and oh do I feel middle aged! In my younger days, I even danced professionally--and I don't mean sleazy/strip dancing! It's hard for someone who danced and once focused so much on one's body to become chunky!! Dancers are perfectionists about bodies! Time, lack of exercise, and a metabolic disorder have taken their toll. (I know, lots of chunky folks say it's metabolism--but it truly is, for me!) ExH and I haven't been together that way in FOUR years. I don't know. Sex was always a bit of an issue with him--he was always a bit restrained about the whole thing. The main thing we ever fought about was sex. Not a good thing, I know. He told me I 'overwhelmed' him in that department. I'm not saying that to boast, but just to illustrate my 'free' self with his restrained self.

I learned during the whole A that sex wasn't as important as I thought it was. I also learned that a person's desire has nothing to do with their love for you, it's more just who they are, personality wise. I had more interest in it, quite frankly, when I didn't have a career that kept me so focused on work, work, work. OM was overly interested, and it wouldn't have mattered WHAT the woman looked like. He was just that type of person--overly interested, I see now. Never satisfied. That whole aspect was empty, in the end--of course.

Didn't mean to go off on that tangent, but felt it necessary to 'vent' here.

JL- Thanks again for your suggestions. Duly noted, and now being contemplated.

Kily,
Thanks for your response. Not sure on the whips, chains--in younger days exH liked the garter stuff. Now I'm simply too chunky to imagine such a get-up.

Rly,
Thanks for your response. Yes, I did say those things you mentioned--as far as biggest mistake of my life, etc. I will say them again, someday.

I admit I am tired of the rejection I get from him. It's like he can't see me at all , for who I am. I did make a HUGE mistake, but I'm a decent human being.

Thanks, Rly, so much for your kindness and your prediction of a reconciliation. I hope so, but I don't know.

Sharon,
Glad to hear from you. You're dating ? Are your children doing okay with that? Sorry to ask, just wondering how they like it. I'm glad you're doing well. You deserve it.

Litchfield,
Your name reminds me of that town, in the midwest--that bears your name. (duh--no wonder) I didn't realize you were divorced. Thanks for your support and kind words.

Lisa,
Thanks too for your reply. I appreciate it very much, and I have been following your thread. Please be patient, too!

My cold is getting better. Thanks for your help, all of you. I wish I could magically 'make' my exH forgive me. I know it has to be his choice.

Take care and have a good Saturday,
H_P

H_P,

I didn't mean to sexually go after him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I meant show up and drag him off to dinner, movie, something and then tell him exactly what is on your mind. And then demand that he repeat it so that you know he has actually heard what you say.

This ISN'T the feminine approach. It is definitely a male approach to things: frontal assualt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So while you are thinking, reread what I said with this in mind. Now I liked Kily's idea, and you know what you may feel you are to "chuncky" for this stuff, but us guys would probably have a differing opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> However, I believe you are right, sex is not the issue right now. No matter how much fun the images are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> What is important is that you two really talk.

I mean really air things out. It may mean that there is absolutely no way on God's Green Earth he is coming back, but at least you need to hear it. It may also be true that he really needs you to take the lead on this because for him to do so, would really make him look like a wimp (his thinking, not necessarily anyone elses).

My honest guess is that he reached the stage that MortarMan is going into and there is nothing left. But, even that doesn't mean that something cannot be built. Interesting isn't it? You may need to think in terms of building love instead of rekindling love. Your H may as well.

It seems to me this ended with a "wimper not a bang." And it needs to end with a bang. I apologize for misusing a very good line of poetry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do hope you get rid of that cold, or flu. That stuff went around here, and I was done with it most of Christmas. No fun at all.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Hi H_P,

I hope everything is good for you. I worry about you. You seem to be so focused on everyone and everything but YOU. I don't want to beat the drum for being selfish, but please take care of yourself. I know you feel awful about what has happened and the direction your life has taken but you need to realize we all make mistakes and that you are learning from them and that is all you can do. You sound like a wonderful, loving, person. Know that.

To answer your ? yes I am dating and my kids are fine with it. I am happy, but not just because of that. Hope you are well. Know that I care and think about you.

Love ya,

Sharon

H_P-

Sorry to see that you haven't been feeling well, just remember to get plenty of fluids and rest. I know that you've been feeling stuck as of late with regards to your XH but know that happiness is in your future. It's like the passage in the bible that talks about how pain leads to perserverance which develops character that fills us with hope. You're due for some good fortune so be expecting it!

Your XH seems to have this vast storage bin of hurt that he draws from each time you make some sort of advance. I remember you mentioned before that you think he'd be content to go on like this forever but I can't believe that's the case. I think it's more likely that he's validating his actions with the thought of a reconciliation at some point in the future. I'm sure you've mentioned this before but did you ever get to the point before your D where he accepted some responsiblity for the poor conditions of the M prior to the A? I know from personal experience as the BS that it can difficult to continue on that healing path after the D. I think there's a BIG temptation to shift most of the blame to the other side after the D. I'll be praying that your X is still growing and that he hasn't hardened his heart too much. Good luck and god bless.....

PS Litchfield happens to be a favorite beach of mine in the SE US!

Hello,
Thanks for your replies JL, Sharon, and Litchfield. I don't have time to properly comment on your words at this moment, but I'll try here quickly.

Time is scarce lately, especially free time away from work. I can't access this site from my work, either . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do appreciate your support and caring. Nothing new has developed, you'd be the first to know!

I dreamed of being with ExH again last night. This time we were at home here again, not on some sort of trip. It seems I am forever haunted by these dreams, about four times a week at least.

JL,
Thanks for the clarification. I guess in a way I knew you weren't referring to sex, and that was more of a fun theme --with Kily's interesting images.

I mentioned to my mother the idea of simply showing up and 'demanding' he join me for dinner, or something along those lines. She thought it would be disastrous, as he is such a STUBBORN man. He NEVER liked to take directions from anyone, and I am a rather directive person. (Why would you marry a kind of 'bossy' woman if you didn't like it, on some level...) I appreciate what you are suggesting, but I need to figure out how to go about it in a more subtle way.

A friend of mine always says, "People who don't like to assert authority seek out those who like to assert it." Perhaps once they find that person they grow to resent the 'authority'.

Also, I appreciate the reference to TS Eliot's poem. I always liked it. Yes, it has ended with a whimper, not a bang.

In a way, I simply want to say to exH, "Isn't it time we kiss and made up?" He and I never went to bed angry, ever. In the end of the marriage it was more of a state of indifference for both of us, and I was in the A full on.

So, JL, I will have to do something, this I know. I'm just a bit afraid, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Sharon,
Glad you're doing well. Thanks for the words on me taking care of myself. I have a job, too, where I'm constantly giving, giving. I do take care of myself though, and I truly feel okay waiting for my exH . If he doesn't change his mind in a few years, then I'll let go completely.
This sounds rather like an excuse, but my profession takes up so much of my time that I don't have down time where I can think much about what I need. This is a plain fact. I am gone from the house about 10 hours a day for my job, and I bring hours of work home. This is how it goes, and it will be this way for a long time. I do have a hobby I really enjoy, and I spend most of my time with my children away from work. (Hope that all made sense.)

LItchfield,
Thanks for clarifying your name! Just was curious about it. Your words were helpful to me, I will remember the scripture to which you referred. I will remember that perserverance builds hope...I hope that you're right and my exH is thinking about a reconciliation.

Time to go now. Take care everyone,
H_P

H_P,

What are you afraid of? Losing your exH? Him not talking to you anymore? Him talking to you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My father used to tell me: "Son, there are two great motivators, fear and greed." If you run into someone that seems to not have these traits watch out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When I was young I thought he meant greed for money and fear of getting beat up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> As I got older, I realized that was only a small part of what he was telling me.

In know the greed part: you want your exH back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But what is it you fear? Figure it out. They are great motivators H_P use them wisely.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,
You're right. I guess I shouldn't have much to be afraid of. I've already lost him, we're divorced. I guess I'm afraid of him getting madder than ever. He told me in August that he wanted space. I'm respecting that as much as I can. I do think though, at times, what about me? What about what I want? Then I answer myself...thinking...Oh, you lost out at naming your needs when you cheated on this nice man.

Your dad was very wise, and I'll think more on that. Very interesting thing to think about.

I am frankly terrified of my exH telling me to get lost forever. I'm thinking that if I'm careful, and go slowly, in the end he may love me again. However, I'm terrified of losing the hope of a reconciliation, too. I know this doesn't make much sense, but this is how I see it.

The fear is truly that he'll tell me to get lost, forever, if I push too strong. Then I won't even have my hope left. Does that make any sense, at all?

Thanks for your input, JL. I appreciate it so much.

I so want to pick up the phone and call this man, this exH. He wanted 'space', he wanted 'no pressure'. I've respected that now, since he told me vehemently in August. Is five and a half months a long enough time to give him 'space'? The A lasted years, maybe he wants me to wait that long. He's never been one for timelines or remembering dates--but in this case I think he remembers dates quite well.

I'm still sick inside, when I take/allow myself the time to think about it, that I've lost such a good man--for nothing at all.

Just my thoughts at the end of an extremely long day.

TAke care,
H_P

Hi All,
Just had to post/vent here. Had a call with exH this evening. I called about a problem with DS, and then from there I switched phones and he and I talked about an hour.

We were discussing son when I just said, bluntly , 'When are you going to come home so we can be a family again?"

This led into a huge hour long discussion, and at this point I am too drained from emotion to remember fine details.

Basically, however..he reiterated his previous stuff of not wanting to try again. He's meant to be alone, and that being with me for all those years was nothing but nervousness, etc, for him. He says he hasn't been nervous or upset at all, since we've been apart. He also said the A was the final straw, but he wasn't happy before that, either. Is this BS 'fog'?

I said, "So then...the answer is 'never', you will never want me again." Something along these lines. He couldn't answer it, but he just said, "It looks doubtful, I dont want to give hope to you."

I asked him why he wasn't at least willing to give our R a shot again, to try. HE said, "I don't want to give false hope to everyone." I then said, "No one has to know.' He was referring to the kids, of course..he added.

In the end I told him bluntly I felt he was torn, that he did want to try, and I understood . HE said, "maybe", but he added that he no longer had feelings for me. He was not happy in my presence, he said.

In the end, dear MB friends, it looks like this guy has made up his mind to be alone. I asked for a shot with him at a new relationship, he said 'no'. I told him I didn't think it was good, that he was all alone there--with no confidants. I again asked him if he'd had a 'deep' conversation with anyone besides me, in years, and he said, "no". I told him this made me very sad, to think of him alone like that, but that is what he wants, he said.

He was angry, yes, when I brought up God. He said it was ridiculous in light of what I did.

I pressed him also and said , "Why do you think I keep trying with you, calling you, sending notes." He said, "because you love me." I said, "yes, and I miss you, and I want to be with you ."

I also said that I felt if we were plopped on some island somewhere that he would feel differently. He said he would be uncomfortable, but it was obvious I'd hit on something.

Oh, I told him...it looked to me like he had feelings, I could see it in his face. His response was, "That's how I look with everyone."

So--bottom line--we talked, but again it was mostly your dear HP bawling, crying in pain. This was interspersed with more in-control stuff, of course. I paused much and waited for him to talk, yes.

I don't know what to make of this. He did say that maybe he was being selfish, that for the 1st time in his life he was being selfish. (this was his response when I pointed out the kids' loss) He added that they were old, and it wasn't so bad. I told him he had to be kidding, that it was devastating to them. Then he started with the selfish thing. I said, "Well, maybe when you're done with this in your life you'll see things differently.'

His response was, "Maybe, but don't count on it."

Finally, I asked him if I should just give up completely, and not ask him ever again. He couldn't say yes to that. That was interesting. He avoided it. He said something to the effect of , "If you need to vent, you can call." have you ever? Talk about mixed messages. I said, "Well, it seems foolish to keep calling when you're telling me you want nothing to do with me."

Thanks for listening to my vent. I don't know what to think of it all. He is still so very, very angry. When I said this to him, he said, "YEs, I am."

I asked him directly, by the way, if he feels any sort of tug in his heart, to try again. Of course he denied it, but the pause was so long---I don't know.

OH, I told him I can't let go, he meant too much for me--for so long. His response was, "Well, maybe you should let go a little." What does that mean?

Funny too..he doesn't see the A as the end of it all, but stuff before that. What is that?

Off now--this is very jumbled. Thanks for the ear.
H_P

HP- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gosh, I'm speechless.......when did you get ba!!$?

Girlfriend, this is just the beginning. You gave that man SO much to think about that he will not be sleeping for weeks.

Yes you have some answers, probabbly more questions than anything else, but - there is movement. You have demonstrated over a 5 month period that you have set your mind on something, and not waivered from that goal.....

Actions speak louder than words and he still is welcoming your calls and can't shut you out, regardless of how much he may want you to.

Don't give up. You've opened the door a crack.

Thanks, Kily. I appreciate it. I'm so sorry for your latest turn of events.

I don't know if I've opened the door. He says he doesn't mind if I call to 'vent', but he doesn't want small talk, everyday chit-chat.

He also said the A was the final straw, but even before that he had stomach aches and problems, for years due to being with me. Is this BS fog? I don't know anymore.

A dear friend of mine ( age 63) told me yesterday that this might not work out until he and I are in our sixties or seventies!!! That's twenty-thirty years away. I will wait for him for perhaps five years, but I certainly won't spend my whole life waiting for someone to decide to love me again. Her advice was also to quit bugging him, completely. She said, as the old seventies book said...

Don't push the river, let it flow.

Another fascinating thing said--she's been married 43 years, but she said many times she's wished she were alone. She said had she been in a younger generation, she probably would have divorced. Her personality is a lot like mine, and her husband is so much like my exH. It was surprising to hear this stance on divorce from such a religious woman.

Another gal who is in the same age bracket (60) mentioned to me that it has all been very recent, and exH needs time. These gals perhaps have the right idea.

Had another fantastic dream about being with exH last night. If dreams were only true!

Take care,
H_P

Hi H_P,

I'm a LONG time lurker, and this is only my second post (since '99!). I've read most of your "mega thread" and I really feel for you, IF you are sincere, and you certainly seem to be.
But, I just don't think you understand how us quiet, stoic guys think.....we love a lot...just have trouble verbalising it. When my XW found herself a better lover than me, well, I've never felt such pain...I really was doing the best I could, but it wasn't good enough. And, as with you, when things soured with her OM....I started looking better and better to her again. hooray. H_P, a guy just doesn't want to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life. I guarantee you your XH loves you, (I will ALWAYS love my XW)he just doesn't want to go through it again. I don't either. We know we weren't good enough for you, and that's unlikely to ever change. There's a lot of talk on MB about "forgiveness"....but, I think to forgive is not in the realm of us mortals...only the Almighty can do that. For the rest of us....it's what can we try to forget? My "epiphany" came on 9-11-01, when I was very nearly killed in the Pentagon attack. That changed my whole perspective on things. Life is just too damned short to spend it with someone
who will sell you out. Sorry for the harsh words.

Words can't describe how I miss "my" 3 kids (hers from a previous M)....I will still gladly pay for
their support and their college educations...but ONLY because I love them. I have been very lucky in life financially, and I COULD "outlawyer" her if I chose to. But, I might even be a harder case than your XH, because I haven't seen any of them since 9-11-01 (by my choice). Yes, I blame her for creating this situation, as I'm sure your X does. I SO wish she'd just told me she wasn't happy with me...BEFORE she found the other guy.
But I guess she might not have seen it coming, either. (ie. **** happens)

I'll NEVER turn my heart over to a woman again...
Nope, never. I do have a girlfriend now, who will help me crew my 48' ketch around the world (I hope! LOL) when I retire next year. I've already told her, tho...she is welcome to "jump ship" anytime she wishes, if she finds a better "deal"...just like I told my XW. "Fair winds and following seas to you always, my love".

So, I don't want to be the "skunk at the picnic",
or anything, H_P, but I think you should just give up. The time you are wasting waiting on your XH could be much better spent seeking your next relationship. The closer you get to age 50.....the fewer of those SN guys are you going to be able to attract. Don't waste time on a lost cause....9-11 taught me that.

Nonetheless, I admire your poise and intellect....and I hope things turn out well for you.....with or without XH.

Sincerest regards,
Bud

H_P,

Thanks for your reply to me. I think of you often too and always wish the best for you. I hope you are taking care of yourself. I know that work keeps you very busy, but stop and smell the roses once in awhile. I know that our troubles are polar opposites but I do feel a connection with you. I admire your ability to hang in there, when it would be so easy to give up. I don't feel that I gave up, just moved to a different place. I hope you reach a place where you are comfortable and happy. I also hope you have forgiven yourself. That is such a big step. I even feel I had to forgive myself for my part in the break-up of my M before I could go forward and let go. I am not saying you have to let go, but moving forward and letting go don't have to be the same thing. I was just ready to let go. I know it is the right thing to do. I never thought it would be but it came. Whatever your destiny I hope it is a happy one. I am sure it will be, you are a wonderful thoughtful person with so much to share and offer. I hope you realize that and believe it.

Your friend,

Sharon

Hello,
Thank you Sharon and Bud for your replies. I 've been out all day, and I'll have to comment on them tomorrow, as I don't have the energy to make any sort of sense here now.

Bud-a special thanks to you for replying, in light of your 'lurker' status. It means much to me that you felt my situation warranted a comment from you. I read your comments this morning, before I left, and have been thinking about them on and off all day long. Very thought provoking, indeed!

I'll reply tomorrow night. Big workday coming soon!

Take care,
H_P

I have to agree with bud.

It must be hard for your ex to listen to your pleading. If you had no children then it would be just between the two of you. But he has a bond with those children who are in your house. He doesn't have any bond with you.

I think also that since your ex is reserved and you chose to replace him with a "touchy feely" type is very revealing. You and the OM needed something that your ex doesn't.

I feel like Bud that you owe it to yourself and your ex to move on.

HP-

I can truly say from the bottom of my heart that your pursuit in this recovery will benefit you in ways that I am only now coming to understand. You are going through a process that will eventually lead you to a freedom and peace that you have NEVER known. THe great thing in this is that you will get there, regardless of the outcome of you "R" with you H.

Continue on the path that you are on until YOU feel that you don't want to any longer. Amazing things will happen, either way.

Hugs,

Dear MB people,

Hope you are all doing well. Thanks to all of you who have helped me these past 5 1/2 months here.

Before I respond to your posts, I wanted to just say a few things about the conversation with my exh the other night. Gosh, that was already on Thursday.

I still love the man. I can't give up yet. He did tell me, and forgive me if I repeat it--he told me he didn't want to give it a 'try' again because if it didn't work out that would only be giving false hope to the kids. I said, "They don't have to know, " meaning he and I could see each other alone, to begin with... He simply said, "No."

I am perhaps an eternal optimist, but I do feel that AT LEAST he is thinking of a slight possibility . He also brought up that he hadn't changed, that he still didn't make plans--and I said, 'That's fine, I don't mind making them."

Anyway, I followed up my LONG conversation with him on Thursday by a LONG email that I sent on Saturday morning. I haven't heard a word, nor did I expect to hear anything.

BTW , he did tell me on the phone that he felt I was sincere, and that I loved him. He simply said he was 'stressed out' during our marriage, and that he hadn't had a stomachache since he'd been alone. I simply said that if one doesn't interact and have conversations with people, one won't feel the pain of conflict. I really didn't know what to say. I told him I was different now, more calm. He doesn't see how me having a demanding, full time job can make me more mellow. I explained that before I was not putting enough mental energy into anything, thus I picked at things, including him. Now I don't have the energy to pick at things. I do enough analyzing and 'figuring' at work. He simply doesn't see that I've changed much, I suppose. He NEVER will know I've changed if he won't spend time with me, will he?

Now to respond to you nice people who added your thoughts:

Kily,
YOu're sweet to think I got the man thinking. He told me though that he 'hasn't lost sleep' over all of this. I don't think he will, either. He simply isn't the type to do so.

YOu're kind to say he's welcoming my calls. I don't quite see them as being welcomed, but at least he doesn't say he has to go right away. In fact, he never quite does. I end the calls when his tone sounds like he's had enough.

KIly- I responded to your 2nd response at the bottom of this long message. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BTW- I've been reading your thread. Will comment there at a later time. My thoughts are with you, GF.

BUD-

Thanks for posting, you long-time lurker! I truly appreciate the time you took to do so. Your words made me think, of course.

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When my XW found herself a better lover than me, well, I've never felt such pain...I really was doing the best I could, but it wasn't good enough.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see how you viewed it, indeed. For the record, and I can only speak for myself--OM wasn't a 'better lover' at all. It was a mere mind game of sorts, a strange addiction for me.
Encounters, if you will, made me feel very unfulfilled and not happy at all. What I really got from him was conversation, I suppose. And LOTs of admiration, for awhile. Very expressive, etc...until I got to really know him. All along, I compared him to exH, and exH was always on top. My guilt led me to separation--tired of lying. Huge mistake, I should have ended it.

Also, you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, as with you, when things soured with her OM....I started looking better and better to her again. hooray. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I asked exH to reconcile right after DDay. He always looked better to me. I truly can't explain the whole thing. It was a combination of MLCrisis and a horrible, selfish, ego trip on my part. Hard to admit, but it was like it wasn't me.

You then said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We know we weren't good enough for you, and that's unlikely to ever change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, he was BETTER than me, my exH. I was so very unwise, to do what I did. I have told him that many times. I hope in time he believes me.

You then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There's a lot of talk on MB about "forgiveness"....but, I think to forgive is not in the realm of us mortals...only the Almighty can do that. For the rest of us....it's what can we try to forget? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know, but it appears to me that many here at MB have talked about forgiving their spouses. I can forgive people for things, many people truly can--if they want to do so. I do believe it is in our realm to forgive. Just my opinion.

You also talked about your fascinating 9-11-01 experience:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My "epiphany" came on 9-11-01, when I was very nearly killed in the Pentagon attack. That changed my whole perspective on things. Life is just too damned short to spend it with someone
who will sell you out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read your other post, where you talked about this experience. Wow! Amazing, indeed. I don't mean to be harsh, either--but please consider seeing those three kids of hers once in a while, can't you? Don't you think they deserve it? It's not my place to judge, but they didn't do anything to you--she did.

YOu then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> , I blame her for creating this situation, as I'm sure your X does. I SO wish she'd just told me she wasn't happy with me...BEFORE she found the other guy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By the way, I did 'tell' my exH about the other guy. Right after I met him online, I told my exH that I 'd talked to someone online who was so interesting and fascinating. He showed no jealousy, or concern. He knew I'd sent him a photo, not too much concern. Right before I met OM, he said, "I don't like it, but if you do meet him just to meet him face to face, I don't want to know about it." Another thing he told me, in our marriage, "I would rather have you cheat, than divorce."

I am not making excuses at all, but you can see where his words might have made me feel a bit unappreciated. I have brought this up to him, and of course he now regrets having said them. I still entirely take 'credit' for my error, but let's say he certainly didn't show much caring about me in the words he said.

Bud, you then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'll NEVER turn my heart over to a woman again...
Nope, never. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Come on, that's not fair. Give it time--love is good, and why love without putting your heart into it?

You're not 'the skunk at the picnic', as you so divinely said. I appreciate your honesty.

This was something else you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The time you are wasting waiting on your XH could be much better spent seeking your next relationship. The closer you get to age 50.....the fewer of those SN guys are you going to be able to attract. Don't waste time on a lost cause....9-11 taught me that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, I am not simply just interested in SN in a man. I learned a lot about my SN from being with OM. Quite frankly, when I didn't have a career, I was just plain old picky about everything. My exH and I did have a beautiful S life in many ways, and I truly miss him. He wasn't the ridiculously obsessed man that OM was , in that department--but S with OM was a very empty, tiresome experience.

Secondly, I don't understand the part about getting close to fifty and it being easier to find a 'SN man'. That is to say, I do know what you're saying as far as attractiveness, but I have faith that if this doesn't work out, with exH--that I'll find love someday. Or, it will find me. I'm 43 now. I know many women in their late fifties who are happily remarried recently after being single for 10-15 years. People of all ages want partners, love--not just young people with nubile bodies. I'm not as firm as I was even four years ago, but I still think I'm worthy of love, and I will be in the future, too.

Thanks for the compliments as far as my 'poise and intellect'. I appreciate your wishes for the best. Thanks again for responding!!! Please respond again sometime, if you have the yearning.

Sharon,
Thanks for responding to me, too. I do stop and smell the roses, as much as I can. I have a wonderful , artistic hobby that I spend about 15 hours a week doing. I have time with my girlfriends---went out with different sets of friends the last two weekends. (One group, professional network, the others--longtime friends of 20, 12 years)

I don't think about dating as I am still in love and wanting my exH. ( I know you weren't suggesting it, just discussing here) I do have men occasionally try to talk with me, in the store and such--but I don't return their friendliness. Quite honestly, men tried to pick up on me more ten years ago when I was in my early thirties, and married. (the age thing again, who knows) The thought is repulsive to me at this time-dating, so I know it's not for me.

I'm so HAPPY for you, and how well you're doing. YOu are wonderful to have adjusted so well.

Older and Wiser,
Thanks too for replying. I appreciate your opinion, and that you agree with Bud.

I don't see my talking to my ex as pleading, but I do see that perhaps he sees it as such. I merely am talking with him, and he does respond. I told him that I didn't think I should have to beg for love, he knows that. I just want him to know I do care about him.

You then said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you had no children then it would be just between the two of you. But he has a bond with those children who are in your house. He doesn't have any bond with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps it's my ego again, but I feel we do have a bond. We were close friends for 8 years before marriage in 1981. That means we share a 30 year relationship. We are bonded through years of experiences that we've never shared with anyone else. I perhaps sound defensive, but I see that he and I are bonded in some way--and we will be in some slight way forever by our shared history.

You then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think also that since your ex is reserved and you chose to replace him with a "touchy feely" type is very revealing. You and the OM needed something that your ex doesn't.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I need hugs? Yes--my exH gave me those. Until my A began, exH and I always held hands in public--always.

I don't need a man hanging on me all the time, which is what OM was about. It actually got old, and downright embarrassing at times-in public. I will admit--it started out novel, interesting, intriguing--but it really isn't a requirement of mine. With OM it was like he was a bottomless pit---it was never enough. (sex, affection, attention)

I appreciate it that you said I owe it to me and exH to move on. I will do that, IF there is no progress made let's say TWO YEARS AT LEAST after my divorce is final. That means I have to wait until August 2004 to move on. Even then I might not, unless he's moved on completely, and is married. The affair lasted, all told---almost four years. Perhaps I should allow a good four years after it ended--until August 2006 to wait out my exH. That sounds reasonable to me. I'll be 47 then--and that is certainly 'young enough' to find love. (Goodness--I've read of people in their eighties finding love!!) I know this sounds weird, but I see waiting--and being ALONE-- as part of the price I pay, for what I did.

Kily,
Thanks for your support and for reminding me that this is a process--and that I'll benefit from going through this recovery. You're right.

Thanks for saying,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Continue on the path that you are on until YOU feel that you don't want to any longer. Amazing things will happen, either way.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wholeheartedly agree with you. Right now my sons and daughter need me, without the confusion of entanglements with any other adult males. I am happy to wait for their father to change his mind, if he ever does. If he doesn't ..then as you say, I'll be better off for having gone through the process.

Thanks again to all.

JL, Lisa in London, TMCM--I miss your replies, too.

What does anyone think, BTW, on exH's latest remark that the A was the 'last straw' but he was unhappy with me, for years...is that fog?

Take care,
H_P

H_P,

Well, I have lots to say but I am pretty tired. These 14 hour days do wear me down.

I think you really need to look at Buds comments carefully.

You responded to one of his comments </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, no, he was BETTER than me, my exH. I was so very unwise, to do what I did. I have told him that many times. I hope in time he believes me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may think this but my bet is your exH thinks very much like Buds does/did. In this regard you really don't know how men respond to rejection. They tend to accept it, feel it is their fault, and move on. I can assure to the day your exH dies, he will feel inferior to your OM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He will feel if a better version of OM comes along he would be out again. This is what you need to consider when you talk with him.

Now lets consider his comments about his feelings before the A. Yes, some of it was fog. Perhaps some of it was confusing what he felt when your A started with what he felt before. I also suspect he didn't dare tell you what he really felt, because he was afraid of you and losing you. Of course it helped you do what you wanted to do.

I suspect you don't really understand what I am saying. Let's take his words as honest and yes true. Why would he feel this way? My guess is your "picking" at things really bothered him. You must understand most people who are not very open are not very open for a reason. That reason is almost always self-preservation. THe reason they feel that way varies.

Your H had stomach aches because while you didn't notice or think what you said to him was bad, it was killing him inside. In could be insecurity, but whatever, he felt his defenses constantly under attack. Do you see how that could get to him.

His comment about being selfish, now was telling. He was giving all he could because he thought it would protect him. It didn't. It wasn't enough for you.

Now H_P if you feel these comments have a ring of truth, I think you might have a better idea on how to address this. Yes, taking time and going slow is the order of the day.

But, perhaps (and I only throw this out for your consideration and discussion) you need to talk to him sometime. You need to explain to him that you are really really bothered that your presence in the marriage caused him so much trouble and distress. You like to ask him some questions for your own benefit, if he would be kind enough to answer. And then ask if your "picking", perhaps criticism, or something was making him feel you didn't love him. Ask him if he could tell you more about how he felt and what you did that made him feel this way.

He may ask why? I would answer because I will always deeply regret that I had an A, but I can never forgive myself for hurting you when I was really trying to love you before the A. I need closure on this and you are the only one that can help me.

I would not debate a single thing he says to you. I would only support it, or just listen.

Your H has some issues of his own. Your actions have really pushed them hard. But you need to understand just because you don't think he feels inferior or should feel this way, doesn't mean he didn't even before the A.

H_P this is going to require time and a very gentle touch. Your exH was trying his best it seems despite his issues and limitations. He is very likely acutely aware of his limitations. What he doesn't understand is you don't necessary view them as bad and they have in fact led him to do some very good things for you.

H_P think long and hard about this. Replay your conversation over, read these latest posts over. I think there is information in there that might help.

He may never come back, but you have some unfinished business with this man and you know it. One of those unfinished items in my opinion is seeing who he really is and approving of it. You don't know how much that could help him.

Must go. Sorry I couldn't write longer or proofread this mess.

God Bless,

JL

H-P,

JL's reply is very pertinent.

I haven't his literacy but let me try and say it bluntly which alas I am good at.

You come across to me as seeking the sort of realtionship that you used to see in old films.
Mother, Father , kids, dogs, nice house, nice car and all that stuff, every one with a grin on their face.

Well you married a guy who was far from that image. He is stoic to use buds adjective. He hated all that shallow stuff. He probably knew right from wrong, he always tried very hard, he probably knew success but sadly from time to time failure. I bet he worshipped the ground you walked on even if you nagged.

Now I bet guys like that don't know what to say when their wife tells them they've met this lovely guy on internet and they are going to meet them. One half of them wants to kill the slimy sod and the other half says I'm at the end of my rope, I have nothing left, everything I ever did was for you and our family and now you want this. But what your husband said to you was excessively loving. He sent a message which said I love you so much I want your happiness. I won't divorce you. Cheat on me if it makes you happy.

And you took that as what? He doesn't care. That shows how little you know that ex of yours. But that wasn't important to you. Understanding wasn't in your script at that moment. That was the death knell of your relationship.

Think H-P, I wasn't there but I have been in the same boat. I bet it was like that.

So your stoic is now rewriting history to keep you at arm's length. You two were never really on the same page. His character you never understood. You never began to understand the depth of love he had for you.

What makes it unlikely he will change his mind?

2 things come to my mind.

Stoics are not nice all the way through. They preserve their indifference by passionately hating everything that is trivial, sentimental, vain etc. Your OM for example. If your husband understands what type of extrovert you left him for my bet says you have no chance.

He loves his children and knows that what he can pass on to them is the prime objective in his life. What message does he think going back to you sends to them?

I'm sorry it is blunt but it is sent with more than a little sympathy for your pain.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Hello,

I have nothing new to add from my last update. Life is too busy-I suppose it's a blessing having such a demanding career. It keeps my mind off of my huge loss in life regarding my marriage.

Adding this-the next day. Feeling very low last evening after DD left to go back to school. Furthermore I'd been working on a project all day, and was sick of it. At 9:30 I decided to go to the all night copy place to make copies for a huge work presentation. I was going to go today, but just thought it was better to get it done.

Anyway, I ran into a couple at the copy place that gave me HOPE . I'd forgotten about them. It was my former physician (he's retired, mid sixties) and his wife. He'd DIVORCED this woman, after a LONG marriage and 3 children-- married another one and had a child with this young woman--the 2nd wife--about 20 years his junior. This was about 10 years ago. He then divorced 2nd wife and REMARRIED his first wife a few years later. That was about six years ago, the remarriage to the first one. I of course don't know the 'whole' story, but I do know I'd seen him in public once with his new, younger wife and child. I think I can figure it out, the 'story'. I know it probably seems irrelevant to bring this up, but as I said I was DOWN when I went out to this copy place. It did give me a bit of hope to see a couple who'd remarried. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but for now I'll grasp at any sort of hope at all.

JL
Thanks for your reply. It is so kind of you. THanks, I will reread Bud's comments again. I'm sure they're close to how my exH feels/felt.

I have told my exH many times that the OM couldn't hold a candle to him, in any way--but I am sure you're right, I'm sure he doesn't believe me. He is an insecure man, and I blew it all the more as far as building him up.

Yes, you're right JL. My exH even during our marriage said he didn't like telling me the truth often as I had some sort of reaction. I am not a nagging 'fishwife' type of woman. My personality is lively, yes. I feel that my exH had a lot of 'stuff' from viewing his own parents' marriage. He projected that onto our R. His mom and dad were EXTREMELY distant with his other. He never in his life saw them touch, not even once. It was like they were married (50+ years) but living separate lives. His mom never said one kind thing about his dad , ever. And vice versa. Talk about critical--his mom was very critical of his dad. I know I wasn't anything even approaching that level, but I know that my exH's viewing of this sort of R in his parents was detrimental.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My guess is that your "picking" at things really bothered him. You must understand most people who are not very open are not very open for a reason. That reason is almost always self-preservation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I didn't 'pick' at him as much as I see MOST women 'pick' at their husbands. It is like he couldn't accept any comment at all, on anything.

I will have that conversation you are suggesting I have with him, about the way I treated him. He and I always talked much in our marriage, and there was a recurring theme. No matter how much I said I loved him, admired him, and no matter how much I did--he never believed me at all. He thought I was mad, when I wasn't. In some ways it was like walking on egg shells.

Yes, he was stoic--but not a rock.He cried many times, openly (wedding day, births of children, deaths, many, many other times--not always just at milestones) He laughed heartily at many things, too. He just is a man of few words-bottom line.

I told him MANY times during the marriage that it bothered me that I caused him so much anxiety. He even sought medical treatment at one time, for anxiety he had with me--at certain times. It was a very sad thing, indeed, but we got through it. Then, the internet and my decision to get involved with OM. It is still like it wasn't me, that's still how it feels.

BTW, I have told him that I'm really sad, and bothered, that I didn't make him happy and relaxed. I always felt he loved me unconditionally, and I know he never felt like that from me. I have told him I'm sorry that I made him feel stress. I really feel badly that he felt this way, inside. I'm not really some sort of 'witch' woman. AS I said earlier, 90% of my female friends are MUCH stronger with their husbands than I ever was, with him.

He always told me he put me on a pedestal, and that I was too good for him. I always told him that the contrary was true, but he never believed me.

I know it will take time. Quite frankly I am feeling more and more resigned that this man simply doesn't want me in his life. We'll just have to see. I can't force anything--I've told him how I feel, he knows I love him--what more can I do, besides patiently wait.

JL--you're right when you say:
"Your exH was trying his best it seems despite his issues and limitations. He is very likely acutely aware of his limitations. What he doesn't understand is you don't necessary view them as bad and they have in fact led him to do some very good things for you."

I have told him just that, already, but he simply doesn't care what I have to say, at this point. Maybe in time.
You're so right, unfinished business!

Olderandwiser

Thanks for your reply,too.

You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You come across to me as seeking the sort of realtionship that you used to see in old films.
Mother, Father , kids, dogs, nice house, nice car and all that stuff, every one with a grin on their face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Older, I realize this is simply a website, and you're only getting a little picture of who I am. Actually, I certainly never viewed myself as wanting a relationship such as you portray, above.
A family--yes--a happy one most of the time, of course, don't we all want that? It sounds defensive, I'm sure, to answer you this way, but I feel I must. Yes, we have kids--and a dog--but we never were able to afford 'nice' things at all. Those things haven't ever mattered to me. A supportive , loving family did/does. I was/am content to live in a blue collar/older neighborhood--still do, and drive a car more than a decade old--until it quit on me. The carpet where I live should have been replaced when exH and I moved in here, 13 years ago. We never even had a dishwasher in this older home. The grins on our faces--not at all. ExH and I endured the deaths of both of our siblings throughout our marriage, the death of one of his nieces, and many other true life crises. I never saw life as a mere string of events that included shallow people with 'grins' on their faces, waving at others from their 'nice' cars from the driveway of their 'nice' home.

I do know people like that, the type you mentioned in your response--but I am not one of them. We always lived and I still live BELOW our means, as we/I didn't care to impress others at all with 'things'.

My husband is stoic, but he's also sensitive.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He hated all that shallow stuff. He probably knew right from wrong, he always tried very hard, he probably knew success but sadly from time to time failure. I bet he worshipped the ground you walked on even if you nagged.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, there was nothing 'shallow' in our marriage, nor in my needs. To me, to be called 'shallow' is a true insult indeed. I know many, many shallow people, as I said-- and I am not one. Never have been, never will be.

Secondly, I don't think I quite 'nagged' the way you think I may have. I am fairly easy going about many things. There were many projects, etc, that exH never finished. I never said even a word about them. I never did, never will. I always knew that I wasn't perfect, not at all, so it wasn't worth picking at him for this stuff.

I know that you didn't mean to offend me, Olderandwiser, and you didn't offend me . I just feel you have an inaccurate portrait of who I am, but that's understandable given the venue in which we're communicating.

In case you'd like to know, I did 'pick' at one thing. I always wanted him to make plans, and he never would. That is what he brought up the other night. I now tell him that I don't care, I'll make them.

You truly made me think, and I appreciate that very much. You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I bet guys like that don't know what to say when their wife tells them they've met this lovely guy on internet and they are going to meet them. One half of them wants to kill the slimy sod and the other half says I'm at the end of my rope, I have nothing left, everything I ever did was for you and our family and now you want this. But what your husband said to you was excessively loving. He sent a message which said I love you so much I want your happiness. I won't divorce you. Cheat on me if it makes you happy.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOu're right though. I did see it as a mixed message of he doesn't care, and that he loves me so much I can do whatever I want. The latter is true more than the former! I felt he would love me forever, no matter what--what a stupid, immature woman I was. You're right, I wasn't understanding, either.

I did, by the way, understand the depth of love he had for me. I simply took it for granted, and that was the wrong thing to do.

I do know men who are true stoics. My exH is not one of them. Perhaps then I do have some hope.

It is late now, I feel I can't make any more sense tonight. Olderandwiser--you were blunt--yes, but I appreciate it. Thanks for being direct. As I said earlier, as far as 'shallow' goes--that's your opinion. Duly noted...

I truly think that exH doesn't want to come back as it's easier to live alone, without any emotion expressed. That's how he grew up, and that's how he likes life the best, perhaps.

Thanks again..hope this makes sense. It's late.
H_P

<small>[ February 10, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H-P,

I did say that was "How you came over to me". It sounds as though I was wrong about you and probably your husband too.

If my words have helped you to see how badly you may have hurt him and that reserved people really do not have any time for extraverts I'm glad.

I hope you find a way to get closure on this for all of you.

H_P-

I caught up on your last few posts and wanted to commend you for rocking the boat a little bit. You're going to need answers to these questions anyway so I think it's good you've given him somthing to think about. There was one comment that stuck out to me:

"Finally, I asked him if I should just give up completely, and not ask him ever again. He couldn't say yes to that. That was interesting. He avoided it. He said something to the effect of , "If you need to vent, you can call.""

IMO, this is a further indicator that he's not willing to give up on the idea of a R with you at some point in the future. Problem is, he's most likely not thought of any time frames and you're not willing to hold on forever. It also sounds as though he's fairly comfortable with the present arrangement. In some ways, it's kind of like some WS's that start running from a loving but over bearing BS and, after awhile, forget why they started running in the first place. You've got plenty left in the LB but have you thought about detaching a bit yourself? Unlike some others, I think you've got reasons for optimism. I do think it's going to require some "out of the box" creativity to get it done though. Good luck and god bless...

H_P,

Given your H's family history, has he ever been checked for the many 'anxiety' disorders. I know several famous athletes suffered from them, to the point they couldn't go out in public. Your H doesn't have THAT sort of issue, but he was very sensitive to you and what you did, hence his nervousness.

You see it appears from what you say that he hasn't sought out any other female companionship. He seems more comfortable alone. This suggests that while your A broke him in many ways, he had other issues that were at work here.

I'll be frank with you H_P, I oscillate between thinking this can work and asking myself would I let my W back in after a 4 year A? I cannot give you an honest answer. I would like to say "sure I could do that." But, I don't know. My guess is that I would have moved on, given it 6 months to a year to heal after the divorce and then see if there was someone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yet, when I read your posts and I sense the love you have for him, I WANT YOU TO SUCCEED. I don't think he could find someone that could love him as much and yet fully understand him and herself as you do.

I think if this is to work, something is going to have to happen in his life. I don't know what but something and you will need to be there for him. But, that requires that you hang on for quite awhile with no other encouragement. Not a particularly pleasing situation.

Why do I think that?

I was reflecting on what you could offer him.

1. Conversation - he doesn't seem to need that from you.

2. Sex - he doesn't seem to need that from you.

3. Domestic support - he doesn't need that from you.

4. Help with finances - you are getting money from him.

5. Companionship - you make him anxious

6. Love - He doesn't trust it.

7. Someone to share hobbies with - I don't know.

In short at this juncture I don't see him NEEDING much from you. Something is going to have to open him up to the concept that you do love him, and that it is a good thing that you do.

I think you need to continue contact with him as you can. But, somehow something is going to reach into his heart and let him see the possibilities.

I just don't know what to offer you in the way of advice. I'll keep thinking.

God Bless,

JL

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I still have nothing new to report at all in my life with exH. I wasn't home when he picked up the boys on Friday, and on Sundays he drops them off so quickly that I never have the chance to run out there and say hello. Our house is arranged in a way where it's hard to see what's going on in the front of it.

The last communication I had with him was an email I sent a few days ago, thanking him for picking up our son's Rx. He isn't replying--I think I've had one reply that was unsolicited in the last 6 months. I did mention in a previous email that I needed some tax advice/help, but I'll have to call him for that. He never replied to that 'plea' via email.

I do feel much stronger than I did when I first came to MB. Thanks for your help--so many of you have answered my threads. I don't feel the depression I felt a few months ago, either. I don't know how I functioned in the early/mid fall. I guess I simply functioned as I had to do it, no one else could do it for me.

Our daughter commented last night that she thought it was a good thing her dad hadn't bought a house. She felt it showed he still had ideas of reconciliation. (I was always the initiator of our few moves, etc, I feel he's just comfortable where he's at and doesn't want to exert the energy of home buying--who knows) I don't quite see it that way. I then told her that her dad told me he's upset at how I made him feel during the marriage, and it wasn't anything to do with OM. Naturally I didn't bring up 'anxiety' in regards to her dad, to our daughter. She said in her opinion it was all about OM, and the other ideas were just a smokescreen. She is 19 years old, so I feel it's a good thing for her to talk about how her feelings to me.

OlderandWiser -
Thanks for your reply. I agree, you did say it was how I came across to you. Understood ,completely!

This was interesting too- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If my words have helped you to see how badly you may have hurt him and that reserved people really do not have any time for extraverts I'm glad.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for that. I am also an introvert, by the way, just like my exH. Every personality test I've ever taken identifies me as one. In my case, I simply act more than he does at being friendly and outgoing. Inside I'm quaking at many social events. To me a perfect day is sitting home, enjoying my familiy, and not having to go anywhere. Interacting with people tends to tire me out. In that way he and I were well-matched. He was my refuge from the world, but unfortunately he didn't view me as such for him.

Thanks , Older, for your good wishes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Litchfield ,
Thanks for responding, too. I suppose I did rock the boat a bit, although the boat appears to be going nowhere at this point. That's fine by me, I'm very patient.

THANKS for some well needed encouragement. It seemed that lately others here were telling me to move on. I completely respect their opinions, too.

I agree, exH hasn't given up completely. He couldn't tell me to NEVER ask him again, for a reconciliation of any sorts. I was prepared that evening to hear him say, "Forget it, forever!"

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IMO, this is a further indicator that he's not willing to give up on the idea of a R with you at some point in the future. Problem is, he's most likely not thought of any time frames and you're not willing to hold on forever. It also sounds as though he's fairly comfortable with the present arrangement. In some ways, it's kind of like some WS's that start running from a loving but over bearing BS and, after awhile, forget why they started running in the first place. You've got plenty left in the LB but have you thought about detaching a bit yourself? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mind waiting several years, at least, to make sure he's really through with me. My job and children take up much of my energy. In a way, I feel a bit down about love, completely. Up until the A, I was an honest, loving human being. I messed up, and now I feel at times that even my faith in everything is shaken. It's especially hard, again, to see the forgiving people here on MB.

But you're right, and I think I've naturally detached a bit. I don't obsess over exH quite as much , probably out of sheer self preservation. I've accepted that this is his choice. Yesterday I had lunch with a girlfriend of mine who never met either my exH or OM. I met her about 3 years ago, at graduate school. Without even knowing exH, she too suggested detaching a bit. Litchfield, do you say that so that it might make me appear more attractive--the detaching part, to not be so willing, so 'needy'? Forgive the question as I know it might sound stupid. I'm just wondering what your reasoning is on it.

Thanks for your help, and thanks for your optimism!

J.L. ,

Thanks AGAIN for replying and giving me much to ponder.

Yes, ExH has been checked for an anxiety disorder. He was given an Rx for certain situations that made him feel especially nervous.
His mother used to get anxious, too. I do too, to a degree, and as they say, "Birds of a feather flock together."

He is more comfortable alone. I was the only girlfriend he ever had. I guess I am naive in not thinking about it being a four year A. It was, indeed. I guess because OM lived far away for three years of it, I view it as not as long as it truly was--emotionally.

I think if he were a different type of man he would already have a girlfriend, at the very least. He just is a lot like me, really, content to work hard and focus on the tasks of life. In that way we were quite similar, until I hit what I still call a MLC. (people think this is trivializing it, but it does happen! Either a MLC or a complete breakdown of sorts...)

JL, dear JL--THANKS for wanting me to succeed. I want that, too. I quite frankly have asked him if he thinks anyone loves him like I do, and he never answered me. I just don't know how to get him to open up at all. Thanks for your vote of confidence in my love for him.

I too have thought exactly what you mentioned, that something drastic has to happen in his life for him to see he needs me. I always wanted him, in our marriage, to tell me he needed me. He never really could. I think it's a hard concept for him, to need someone.

Thanks for your listing of what I could offer him. In a way, it seemed depressing to see how little he does need me--spelled out. But, you're right.

My take now, if I may....

You said,

"1. Conversation - he doesn't seem to need that from you. "

My response- Quite frankly he doesn't seem to need it from anyone, too much at all!

You said,

"2. Sex - he doesn't seem to need that from you."
My response- He never had much of a drive, compared to 'tales' one hears about other men. However, if he does need it from me he's suppressed it completely.

"3. Domestic support - he doesn't need that from you."
My response- Yes, and when I point out to him that we could finally have a lifestyle of more leisure after years of struggle, he doesn't care at all. I make more than 4 times what I made when we were married. In a way though, it's refreshing that he doesn't care about material things.

"4. Help with finances - you are getting money from him."
He could pay off his credit cards if we were together--he doesn't seem to care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"5. Companionship - you make him anxious"
This was hard to read, but for now it's true. It will take time for him to relax, and it seems I never made this guy relaxed enough.

"6. Love - He doesn't trust it."
Sad, but true.

7. Someone to share hobbies with - I don't know.
This is true. I miss this very much!

I think you're right, I do need to continue contact with him. I just don't want to bug him. It is very hard, isn't it?

I've noticed too, that quite understandably, he's become much 'harder' than he ever was. He and I used to laugh a lot together, that's all gone. I pointed out to him something he'd done, that I thought was funny in a good way, and he only seemed annoyed. It's like I don't know him so well anymore. He has such a 'wall' around him.

I need to ask for his help with taxes, but I 'm sure he'll act strange about that this year. Last year he did them for me, etc.

Thanks for your reply, JL--and please keep thinking of possibilities. I just keep thinking,

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

and that country western song from a while ago,

"If it will, it will."

Take care and thanks to anyone who read this LONG reply of mine!

Rereading it made me sit here and cry, so I guess the pain is still there if I dwell on this whole situation.

H_P

I edited my prevous post, but it didn't 'take'. I don't know what I did wrong.

Just wanted to add a bit of hope that I felt last night, but it was my hope--and had nothing to do with exH.

Last night I was feeling down again. I did go out to make copies at the all night place close to 10:00. It's rare that I do an errand at such an hour, but I felt compelled to go last night. I happened to see a couple there who I knew had remarried after divorcing. It was my former physician, now retired. During their period of divorce (several years long), he was married to someone else and even had a child with her. She was about 20 years younger. I don't know the whole story, but it was a bit reassuring to see a remarriage of divorced people, again, even after he'd married someone else and had a child with the 2nd one. (sad though, another divorce and sad situation for the child from the 2nd marriage, no doubt) I guess there's always room for hope.

Do I share this story with exH, or let it be? I'm inclined to let it be as he doesn't want to hear anything from me.

Thanks , MB friends,
H_P

Hi HP-

A sign? Perhaps.

Sounds like you are doing well for yourself.

I encourage you to continue on your quest. I think that you have the potential of acheiving your dreams. Detachment will make you appear more desirable......

Hugs to you.

Hi Hopeful-

Boy do I sound like your husband. He is probably thinking "I love my wife with all of my heart, and I want to be with her with all of my heart...I just don't know if I can make her happy and meet her needs."

That is truly a hopeless feeling. To know your wife loves you but is not "In love"

The way I feel is like I know my wife doesn't want me to get hit by a truck, but doesn't exactly want to be with me.

Now I KNOW you have made efforts to show your husband that isn't the case for you and all I can say is keep doing it. He likes it and he will respond before the end of the year...I promise!

He is just scared that if things get rough you may head ffor greener pastures, which I know you won't...you are a much different person now. It really is heart breaking to know you were thrown away, but he will get over it with the kindness you are showing him

You don't know how much respect I have for you Hopeful and I don't even know you. Your husband will see this and respect you to. And respect preceeds love.

Baby Steps my dear, you'll get there. You are the exact opposisite of my wife.

I'll bet ya that by December 31, you will have tied the knot again! Keep the faith.

Thanks for responding to my post by the way, if you could offer some advise as to how I can handle her when she is acting like this, that would be great. I guess being confident might rattle her...what do you think?

Hope all is well Hopeful!

"do you say that so that it might make me appear more attractive--the detaching part, to not be so willing, so 'needy'? "

In a word, yes! If you can figure out how to come across as less needy and more self sufficient, it can only improve your chances of R. The fact that you needed more attention that he was willing to provide prior to the A was obviously a sticking point but I think it might be beneficial if you could somehow put that aside for now. One of the more painful lessons I've learned is the importance of making a relationship "safe" for someone to get back into. When you have years of history together as in your case, this can be difficult to pull off. However, the fact that he remains anxious with alot of your interactions shows that the old ways of communicating won't work (ie. you probing him to express his feeling). Your patience is going to be a key in this whole process though so don't lose hope HP! Good luck and god bless!

Thanks Kily, Litchfield, and Rlyhurtin for your replies.

I appreciate your encouragement very much. At times I really get down about the whole thing.

Tonight I had to drive by his apartment complex--they're on a main boulevard. It is so sad to me, to drive on past and know that he's there.

I have an old calendar in a storage closet off my kitchen that I haven't changed the month and year on since he left--October 2000. For me, that's when life quit in many ways. (No one around here has asked why the calendar is still there, on that month, year--teens here, you know) I know this seems crazy to people, as I was the WS, to feel this way. I really made the biggest mistake of my life, when I cheated on him. I suppose it's odd, too, to keep it the calendar there on that month and year. We all have our oddities, for sure. I'm usually not superstitious, I just can't say why I keep it there. I suppose I'm holding on to a past that is long gone, by keeping it up there.

I wrote him an email regarding tax advice a few days ago. No response. I guess I'll just let it go, for now.

Take care and thanks,
H_P

H-P hi, earlier I wrote to you

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He loves his children and knows that what he can pass on to them is the prime objective in his life. What message does he think going back to you sends to them?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and afterwards you wrote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our daughter commented last night that she thought it was a good thing her dad hadn't bought a house. She felt it showed he still had ideas of reconciliation. (I was always the initiator of our few moves, etc, I feel he's just comfortable where he's at and doesn't want to exert the energy of home buying--who knows) I don't quite see it that way. I then told her that her dad told me he's upset at how I made him feel during the marriage, and it wasn't anything to do with OM. Naturally I didn't bring up 'anxiety' in regards to her dad, to our daughter. She said in her opinion it was all about OM, and the other ideas were just a smokescreen. She is 19 years old, so I feel it's a good thing for her to talk about how her feelings to me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think hard about these questions please.

Could it be that your daughter has received a very clear message from her father that infidelity is wrong?

Wouldn't any father want to give his kids that message?

What would your daughter think about infidelity if he came back to you?

Just a thought.

HI All,
The week has flown by, it was a short one for me .

Nothing new at all except that exH was helpful to me as far as a problem a colleague of mine was having. It was a tax problem of sorts, and exH has a colleague at work whom exH asked on my behalf, for my colleague. Is that confusing enough? Anyway, he did help out. We only spoke very briefly on the phone, and he answered the ? via email.

I did have to call him at work today, and I was cut off short by an interruption at my work. I emailed him later on with an apology for hanging up so quickly--and I did add an "I love you" at the end. Sorry, maybe not the MB way...but I do love the man.

I had two nights in a row, the last two nights, of dreaming about being with him again. It is so, so hard.

If I didn't have my children to live for I would be inclined to do God knows for what I've done to my life, and my exH. That is truly how I feel. I never would harm myself, but that is the depth of my sorry and remorse.

OLDER,
Thanks for your reply. First of all, I don't know if my daughter understands the infidelity started before separation. SHe may know it, but she knows it was wrong during the separation--at the very least.

The funny thing is, before this happened my exH always spoke of understanding in the case of infidelity. He didn't understand how come people couldn't forgive, and work on it. He even mentioned that he understood how Hillary C. forgave Bill, for all of his issues. I truly am still shocked at how things are now, in light of how I knew the man. I guess you're right , Older, when you said I didn't know him. Maybe he didn't 'know' himself, either--before this happened... who knows. I certainly didn't know me, either--to do this.

No, I don't believe he's trying to pass on some sort of message about infidelity to our children. He has never discussed OM or our R with our children, that I am sure of. He is very private and doesn't discuss things like that with our kids. I truly believe he is happier alone as he at this point is too mad about the A to think of the beautiful times we shared. People who knew him before we were married, and then after--said that he looked so much happier with me that it was unbelievable. That makes it doubly sad, indeed...that I betrayed his love, I know that. So, I think he is still very angry and can't believe I could make him happy again. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

Feeling very blue this week, but trying to be positive still for some sort of future with my exH again.

Best wishes to all,
H_P

H-P,

I going to say this a third time then I'll give up. You really do not get it. Here goes.

1) Your ex doesn't communicate with you now at all. OK ?

2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has never discussed OM or our R with our children, that I am sure of. He is very private and doesn't discuss things like that with our kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He communicates with his kids by his actions.

3) You could communicate with your kids if you are prepared to listen. Your daughter has told you your affair was "beyond stupid" and that his discomfort with you during marriage was a smoke screen. She has received a message that adultery is bad.

4) If he goes back to you he sends a message that adultery is OK. OK?

5) Even before your affair, he may have spoken to you but you didn't understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The funny thing is, before this happened my exH always spoke of understanding in the case of infidelity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may call it funny. But the facts are these. No one can know what they would do until it happens to them. He was just saying "I love you".
You took it as a free ticket to have an affair.

H-P,
I'm not trying to hurt you but as far as communicating goes is he the problem or are you?

Older,

Thanks for the input. I'll respond later on when there's time to do so properly.

Take care,
H_P

HP-

Happy Valentine's Day.

I'm sending you some cyber hugs and flowers of your choosing.

Cheer up. Many of us have made the same bad choices that you did. The fact is, you need to forgive yourself. I'm still seeing you punishing yourself for your faults....

It's been six months since we've both started on this journey. Step back and see what you've accomplished since then. Don't look at it in the context of X, but in the context of your kids and your life....I think you might be suprised at what you see.

Hope you are well.

Thanks, Kily- for the Valentine's Day wish. I truly appreciate your support.

I was sleeping early last evening when ExH showed up for the boys. He came two hours earlier than I expected, I might add. My sons came to say goodbye, and I walked out to the living room (I was in the bedroom) to bid them farewell. ExH was already out the door--standing on the porch,back to the door, completely--ready to take off. I merely asked the boys if they wanted to take some of the chocolate I'd received at work. My sons said "No". I then said
"Joe (exH-not his real name), what about you?" He didn't even turn around, not at all--and he said.."No, I don't want it." Something to that effect. So there you are. I didn't care that he didn't want it--but to talk to me with his back completely to me--well, Kily, what do you think? I saw it as symbolic of the whole situation, and I should simply hear the message from exH, again.

By the way, didn't dream of being with exH last night. He's become someone I don't know anymore, as I'm sure I was, to him.

OLDERandwiser,

You said to me,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> going to say this a third time then I'll give up. You really do not get it. Here goes.

1) Your ex doesn't communicate with you now at all. OK ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Older, I've received YOUR message, loud and clear.

Now I think I can give you MY message, to you. I come here for support and insight. Thanks for both. If I've bored you with my repetitive nature, I apologize completely.

I don't run around all day long talking about myself, or my problems. No one in my life knows the true heartache I feel 99 percent of the time. I personally am annoyed by people who talk on and on about their problems, so naturally I am not one of those people. I am a positive person, OLDER. I will admit I go on and on HERE, but it is safe to do so.

I do, by the way, communicate well with my children, and with others in my life. You strike me as being exceedingly judgmental, and that's fine, it's you being you.

You then said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4) If he goes back to you he sends a message that adultery is OK. OK?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh, Older, I thought that many here were in my boat. Many BS's are here, willing to forgive and rebuild their marriages. Have they given their children the message that adultery is OK? No, but they've given their children the message that forgiveness is possible in life, and that family and long relationships are worth the fight it takes.

I know that you don't agree, and that's fine. I appreciate your opinion. But if you don't think it's possible to rebuild a marriage after infidelity, what do you find interesting about this website? I don't mean to put you on the defensive, but many here are trying to work on a marriage DESPITE infidelity.

I realize, Older, that you're right. My exH IS NOT forgiving me at all, not yet. He may never do so. Perhaps he's right, perhaps he isn't cut out for a relationship with anyone. In the meantime, OLDER, I plan on waiting for him to come out of his own 'fog'.

I found your posting to me to be very upsetting and bordering on cruel. SO be it, I can take it. It is helpful that you made me think.

I posted you a thread (with your name on the subject) where I quoted someone, a BS, who had written words that showed me how forgiving a BS can be. Please let me know what you think!

Your final statement was,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not trying to hurt you but as far as communicating goes is he the problem or are you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Older, I think that many would agree that in a marriage where an affair takes place BOTH have a problem communicating. You're right!

Take care, and Older, thanks for your insight! I appreciate what you have to say.

H_P

<small>[ February 15, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H-P hi,

At least I've got your attention. I'm not cruel, I'm just suggesting what might be going through his head.

I first wrote to you to support Bud in suggesting that you really should not have any hope of getting your ex back.

After reading your last message, when you describe how rude he was with his back turned towards you, I can see a chink of light.

My guess he is feeling like that because of Valentines day and is just disgusted not being able to share what might have been.

Perversely I think this may be good news for you. Maybe he can't move on, he still loves you too much and he can't process his pain.

Let me suggest the following, if it is advice it is worth precisely what you are paying for it.

I'm making the following assumptions.

1) He hates you for what you did. You took his home, his marriage and the custody of his kids and rejected him for a gigolo on internet.

2) He can't stand your pleading to come back. He doesn't feel your remorse and will not be second best to anybody.

3) He loves you, he can't get over this and move on.

4) Communication between you and him broke down several years ago.

5) He loves his kids they are all that he has left. He wants the best for them.

6) He thinks that if he came back to you they would think he was weak and that infidelity pays.

What could you do ? Could you do something along these lines perhaps?

Before you start make damn sure you do want him back because what I am going to suggest might just work.

H-P's 12 step program.

1) Use your kids as the communication channel. They at least can talk to him.

2) Choose a time when they are not preoccupied with exams and such.

3) Take them all, individually or together, and bare your soul to them. Just tell the truth the whole truth.

4) Tell them you have not been honest with them and you love them and have to make that right.

5) Admit that the affair started before the separation.

6) Tell them what you did and why during the affair and that your infidelity was a sin.

7) Tell them you are the reason they only see their father on visitation.

8) Tell them you made an awful mistake and that you are apologising to them and hope that they will one day forgive you.

9) Tell them their father is a good man and deserves better than you.

10) Do not ask them to intervene on your behalf. If they offer tell them to think about and do whatever is in their hearts.

11) Only engage your ex in essential discussion about your kids.

12) Wait as long as you can.

H_P-

IMO, you'd be wise to take olders's comments/suggestions with a grain of salt. For whatever reason (I don't think he's explained), your situation seems to have touched a cord with him and he indeed comes across as a bit cruel. I personally have found alot of inspiration and comfort in following your story. For what it's worth, I believe you're following the path God would want you to. Seek and you shall find.....

H_P,

I find it interesting that Older would suggest that you give up all hope. Perhaps he has as well. I do know that he isn't paying much attention to this site or what is about. It is about precisely the thing he says you should give up: HOPE.

What makes this site different is the concept that there is HOPE that marriage can be rebuilt out of the ashes of people's follies. That some of the worst pain imaginable can be overcome with hope, and ultimately lead to a better marriage.

He seems to have missed that point. Does HOPE always lead to the result we want? NOPE. But, life without hope is really not where one should aspire to be.

H_P, your exH may never recover, but you know one thing for sure. If he does, it will be because you had the HOPE it took to hang around and let him heal. Don't let anyone convince you to give up HOPE. You will reach your decision point in due time.

Hang in there H_P.

God Bless,

JL

JL you said. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find it interesting that Older would suggest that you give up all hope. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please JL where did I do that ?

Did you not see that I wrote this ?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After reading your last message, when you describe how rude he was with his back turned towards you, I can see a chink of light.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Thanks for your replies!

I'll have to comment on them thoroughly later on today as I don't have time/privacy at the present moment to do so.

Older-You have quite a 'plan' set up for me! Thank you for your thoughts, will reply on them later.

Litchfield-THANKS for the support and injection of hope given to me. I can't tell you how much it means to me.

JL- THANKS to you, too, for your helpful words and support. Yours and Litchfield's words of kindness came at just the right time. Very, very helpful!

Before I run off on my errands--just wanted to mention that I did have another beautiful dream last night, about my exH and me.

I still love him completely, and I am waiting for him to heal. Nothing will stop the love I have for this man whom I've known for 30 years now. I prefer being alone as to 'looking' for another person with which to share my life, or 'moving on' , as is said. I thank God daily that we had three children together, and that our marriage gave me that, and so much more. I learned A LOT from my exH, and one thing I learned was patience--as he is patient by nature. Now is the time I have to really prove to myself I've learned to be patient. As an added bonus, thankfully our children are doing well--none of the teen rebellion 'bad' stuff many go through.

Just had to say those thankful words before embarking on my day. I'll comment on all of your words later on today.

God bless,
H_P

Hi Hopeful-

How bout this plan...

Gently keep doing what you are doing. In subtle ways keep showing signs that you love him.

In gentle ways show him that HE is your only one. Passively make him feel that there is never a chance you would stray. Tell him what a great husband he was, what a good dad he is. "Admire Him" an important EN. Make all of your interactions pleasant. I say do this gently because its obvious he doesn't want to be pursued.

Hopeful, you can meet many of his needs from a distance...when he is open to you meeting all of them, you can go in for the "kill"--Then you can really show him how much you love him.

Stay positive! I hear wedding bells!!

Take Care

hi hopeful. nutty professor back, I have reviewed many of your post. much of what you have had suggested to you is along the lines of my advice. i.e. your children namely daughter can be a line of communication etc. you husband was not up front with you about his take on cheating vs divorce, and did not really know himself either. he couldn handle the behavior you shown while involved with someone else. too, he is tender hearted and is not going to tell you flat out to stop trying to take back what you threw away. he's too gentle for that. you get good advice and support here, and thank goodness for that it helps every one to carry on. but I have to remind you of an old worn out saying..."you keep doing what you are doing, and you will keep getting what you are getting" namely nothing..
most of your postings and those of others are aimed at second guessing your ex. what does he mean, how would he react to this etc! when we try and get inside anothers head we are actually attempting to maniputlate them...your focus is one him...it must be on you..I have said before the you , you are now will not bring him back it must be a new you. then its friends first. then if ever, a new relationship. as a friend you must want his happiness, for his sake not for your sake,security, companionship, or what ever it is that you think he might provide you with. I have asked you a couple of questions in the past. questions aimed at measureing your attitude to your ex. one question was ...if you knew of a nice woman, who you think would bring him happiness, would you introduce her to him.. if you say no, then its your happiness not his that you are going for. if you can say yes. then you have his happiness at heart. you would be fit to call yourself his friend. in that you would be happy knowing that he was happy. .......I think it is necessary for you to program yourself for his happiness...believe me, we can tell when someone is genuinely interested in our well being and when we are just being manipulated. as older said ex ,gently soul that he must be, will not be second best or choice to anyone. think about my question ...is it a yes or no. and look deep within yourself. I believe you to be a great lady, fun, and a basically good person. but remember the old keep doing what you have been doing ..etc , etc. the question what is it.and how , or what would you be willing to do to regain his presence in your life again. well , back to the ward , god bless hopeful

Thanks to all who replied on this long thread.

I appreciate your viewpoints, as disparate as they may be.

Litchfield

Thanks for your support. I appreciate that very much, and also the comment you made about not being too upset by one other person's replies.

Here's what you said that I have been saying over and over, to remind myself of things today:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I personally have found alot of inspiration and comfort in following your story. For what it's worth, I believe you're following the path God would want you to. Seek and you shall find..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for that! I too believe that this is the path that Christ Himself would tell me to follow, although I realize I wasn't on His path before! (duh!)

J.L.
Older denies that he has said I should give up hope, although I reread many of his earlier postings and I do see where I could infer that message. I felt, as you do too, that he was dealing with his own 'stuff' and thus projected a lot of that stored up anger onto my situation. (or do they call it displacement?) Whatever the case may be, I am open to hearing his words, as I know he's being helpful to me in his own way. However, THANKS for the vote of support. I didn't feel like 'throwing in the towel', but reading his words did affect me adversely on Friday morning before I left for work. Thanks to you and Litchfield for helping confirm what I'd seen too in his words. ( no offense, Older!)

JL, thanks for saying,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What makes this site different is the concept that there is HOPE that marriage can be rebuilt out of the ashes of people's follies. That some of the worst pain imaginable can be overcome with hope, and ultimately lead to a better marriage.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I so want to keep that hope, and I do have it still. I love my exHusband, and I pray that he recovers and loves me again. In the big scope of time and how long the A lasted, it really hasn't been very long, has it? (my earnestly trying to reconcile-before my actions were not very earnest--duh, still with OM!)

Rlyhurtin

Thanks again for your great support. I will continue showing my exH I love him, in gentle ways. You're right, he doesn't wish to be pursued.

I like what you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hopeful, you can meet many of his needs from a distance...when he is open to you meeting all of them, you can go in for the "kill"--Then you can really show him how much you love him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope I can show him from a distance, as for now that's all I'm allowed to do. It is so sad to me, he lives a mile from me--but I can't feel free to visit him, or just be with him. I messed it all up, the life we had.

checkers
I'd wondered if you were still around. Thanks for your reply too.

Thanks for noticing what I said about my husband's feeling on cheating . As you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you husband was not up front with you about his take on cheating vs divorce, and did not really know himself either. he couldn handle the behavior you shown while involved with someone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel I'm trying to manipulate my exH. I feel that by being loving , in subtle ways, I am showing him that I still care. If I don't show him I care, at all, how will he know it?

I do want his happiness. I have told him that it makes me very sad to think of him living alone, with the four of us over here most of the time. He seems to prefer it this way, so for now--he is happy living this way.

As far as introducing him to a nice woman, the question you pose...well, it is an interesting question. The problem I have with it is that in the long run, considering our shared history and life spent together--not to mention how we complemented each other---I can't think of anyone who would make him happier than I did, or could again. Sorry , but we share children--etc...and I've known him since preteen years. I am looking at the big picture, sharing children, etc. That plays a big part in happiness, to me, having a harmonious family that spends time together.

Checkers, I am thinking of his happiness. This man has locked himself into a little apartment, and has shut out the world. I don't think that is happiness for him, and I've told him so. He said recently that for now he knows he's being selfish, and thus that is how he feels--free to be selfish. I said simply that I understood. I was supremely selfish, so now it's his turn--in a different way.

Thanks, Checkers--for your help and support!

Older and Wiser
Thanks for clarifying that you weren't being cruel, just pointing out what might be in exhubby's head. Thanks.

The Valentine's Day thought is interesting. You could be right. He told me himself that he feels now that he is meant to be alone. Deep relationships cause him anxiety--I know that. I told him they can cause all of us anxiety, but aren't they worth it? But--for now, to him, they're not.

Your assumptions were interesting. Some certainly are probably true. He has said he does feel my remorse. I think he's just used to being alone now. We communicated quite well, even when the EA was just starting. I told him once that I really "LIKED" talking to OM on the internet. I was open about where I was headed. I realize now that exH wasn't equipped to be an aggressive combatant in the whole mess. He is more passive by nature, always.

Older, you said he wants the best for the kids. I tend to disagree. If he wanted the best for them, he would work on our marriage, even now. We made it work for 17 years, before I found the internet friend. It can work another 40 years, or more, very easily..if he gives me a chance.

Your 12 step program was well laid out. I appreciate your time and effort, but I won't be following it. I see no point at telling the children all the details, at this point. OM has been gone now 7 months. My kids KNOW I talked to OM a lot online before the separation. I dont feel they need to know anything more.

I see it differently. Telling them all the dirty details would upset them, make them feel worse. How would that effect their dad? He would be more upset, for telling them--and me subjecting them to hearing the trash. That is how I see it. ExHusband is not the type who wants revenge. He was ALWAYS a very empathetic, compassionate man...I know he will be that way again someday. I am sure that my exH would prefer I keep a great relationship with our children, and have them admire me as much as they do . I have always told the kids that the marriage break up was my fault, they already know that. Your 12 step plan...what is your reasoning? Curious to know, Older. By the way, I have told them I was wrong to date OM, at all during separation, and that it was a HUGE mistake to talk to any men online. I told my children that getting to know OM was the BIGGEST MISTAKE of my life. I feel that is enough. YOu then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell them their father is a good man and deserves better than you.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have always told them their dad is wonderful, and I still do. I also tell them I still love him deeply. I say that there's not a better father around, and how great a man he is. I am sorry , but I am their mother--so no, I don't tell them he deserves someone better than me. I am their mom, so if I were to say that I would be putting them down, too--as they're my children. Furthermore, Older--yes, I did cheat on my husband. But I think I am still the woman for their dad. I deserve him, he deserves me. I am not a horrible person . I did a 'bad, bad, thing', but I certainly have a lot of love to give.

You did say, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wait as long as you can.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I plan on waiting a long , long time. He is worth the wait.

Finally, Older, I appreciate your help even though I don't always agree with you. Thanks for taking the time to post here.

One final thought here to you, Older. Please don't paint all of us wayward spouses with the same brush. Some people learn from their mistakes, and can become a better person than they were before they fell.

Thanks for letting me vent here. I appreciate all of your concern and input.

H_P

H-P hi,

Thanks for reading what I wrote. Some folks have said I am cruel but I do not believe they are taking my words at face value.

Some also questioned my reason for posting here. Well it is simply that I can empathise with your ex.

Just over four years ago my wife also told me that she was thinking of taking a lover. Was there a comet flying overhead at that time that turned women screwy? I don't think she did in fact, and we are now closer than ever, but I still feel the pain and haven't been able to process it.

This is H-P's thread and she has consistently thanked me for my posts so as long as she does and as long as I think I can add anything to help her see where the ex may be at I'll go on.

You seem to have lots of ups and downs and today you sound brighter. Have you always been like this?

Some comments, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
We communicated quite well, even when the EA was just starting. I told him once that I really "LIKED" talking to OM on the internet. I was open about where I was headed. I realize now that exH wasn't equipped to be an aggressive combatant in the whole mess. He is more passive by nature, always.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've mentioned this several times. This is the precise point I have in common with your ex. Can you explain what you needed or were trying to do at this time? Have you discussed this with an IC? I'd appreciate any insight you could give me on this.

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Older, you said he wants the best for the kids. I tend to disagree. If he wanted the best for them, he would work on our marriage, even now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can assure you he wants the best for his kids, it is biology. You saying he doesn't because he isn't doing what you want is your judgement of him not his feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your 12 step plan...what is your reasoning? Curious to know, Older.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The basic problem imho is that he can't process your betrayal.

He needs to go through some steps before he can feel safe with you.

First, he needs to know that you have crashed and burned and feel true remorse and will never give a repeat performance.

You and he aren't communicating so I was suggesting you crash and burn by being completely honest with, and show remorse to, your kids.

I doubt it would hurt your relationship with them incidentally.

4 years ago you could have argued they were too young to know but now they are adult enough that they could be told everything.

They could decide (their choice) to subtly let that be known to your ex allowing him to move forward to find compassion for you again.

Now PLEASE H-P don't tell me he has said he knows you feel remorse. You make him uncomfortable he'd say anything for some peace.

Apart from here on MB I don't think you have really opened up. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see it differently. Telling them all the dirty details would upset them, make them feel worse. How would that effect their dad? He would be more upset, for telling them--and me subjecting them to hearing the trash. That is how I see it. ExHusband is not the type who wants revenge. He was ALWAYS a very empathetic, compassionate man...I know he will be that way again someday. I am sure that my exH would prefer I keep a great relationship with our children, and have them admire me as much as they do</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you may be making judgements on your childrens behalf. Would you want a mother who was unable to confide in you?

What you believe to be true of your husband goes back to before your A. Your A changed him. You don't know him anymore.

Finally, another thing H-P. When you tell him, that it is sad he is alone and has no one to confide in. That is an LB (Disrespectful judgement).

Hope this has helped some.

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Hi H_P,

Didn't want you to think I have forgotten about you. It sounds like you are getting stonger and are still are strong in your resolve to save your M. I admire you so much for that. I agree with you that some people learn from their mistakes and are better for them. That is what mistakes are for. I think back to your first writings and I can see that you are a truly repentant and soulful person, who make a dreadful mistake and wants to make something wonderful grow from it. Someone told me once that sometimes a flower can bloom in the choking weeds. I am sending you some cyber weed killer, use liberally. I hope you are doing well and not working too hard I read the last page of your post but will have to go back and read more. Stay happy.

Sharon

hi hopeful. I wasn clear on last post, sorry. I think if you reread some old post of mine to you, you will see that I too, think you are the best match for ex. I was speaking hypothetically. not that you know of someone who might make ex happy, but if there was someone, would you intorduce them, in effect give him to her. should it come to be that you were convinced that this hypothetical person could give him happiness. can you now put his happiness ahead of your desires. do you want the best for ex even if that means someone else. ....hard question I know its a measure of where you heart lies at this moment. more later..its time for my group therapy now. have to find my crayons and get ready. take care and god bless

Thanks to those who replied. I have posted a different thread about a 'letter' I wish to send to my exH. Please, if you have a chance--read it and let me know your opinion.

Nothing new to say now. ExH is out of town on business. I feel sick inside, wishing I were with him. Dream on!

OLDERAND WISER

tHANKS for giving the BS's point of view. Thanks for injecting humor, too--about the comet flying overhead four years ago. I am so glad that your wife didn't take my ridiculous path and that you're now closer than ever.

I know you find it hard to believe, but exH and I were close up until the EA began. It began on the internet--so fantasy based and silly. Talk about compartmentalization!

I suppose you're right, Older, I do have ups and downs. In regular 'life' I don't appear that way, I come off very stable and solid.

Today I told a trusted co-worker a little 'secret'. I couldn't find a paper that I'd received last fall. I told my co-worker, "Believe it or not, last fall I can't believe I functioned here at all. I was a mess inside, in a deep depression . Now I see that I hardly remember those days at all, and where I put things." She said, "A person never would have known it. You really hide your pain and down moods."

So, Older, I suppose here I 'let go' and simply say it like it s. But , dear one, bipolar disorder does run very strongly in my family, although I don't have it. I think I do have a certain amount of the emotionality, yes.

Finally, the divorce has made me full of ups and downs--and especially when I come here.

You wanted to know what I needed or was trying to do at the time of the A. I can tell you. I'd stayed home for years, and I think I should have worked at a real 'career' sooner. It would have made our lives better as my mind would have been more occupied, if I'd had a career. Secondly, it would have lessened our financial woes.

When A started, I had a lot of time on my hands...and exH worked swing shift, and worked weekends. He and I NEVER had the same day off, for about five years. In the late evening, after kids were busy in their stuff...I would sit and 'chat' with strangers from all over the world. Even did it in a foreign language! I was lonely. My friends were all married, I couldn't bother them at home with calls, etc. I stayed home in the evening, with my kids. ExH would come home very late, and I'd be in bed already. On weekends when I was off and exH worked, I'd tell H about the people I'd chatted with, and their stories. Thus it all began. My R began with OM by me encouraging him in life, and being his 'helper' type of friend. It developed from a friendship , and common interests...to an A.

By the way, no more 'chat' for me. I will never do that again. What a joke!

Anyway, OM convinced me to pursue some of my career interests, and I did--before the A started. The main need he filled was conversation. I worked during the day, when ExH was at home. I'd come home, and exH was gone, at work. It was very lonely.

Of course now I'm still alone here, but much more centered and realizing what I had , and lost. I haven't the same need now for 'conversation', as I have a demanding professional type of job. (before it was a little part time job-(non-professional)-began 3 years before separation)

Older, you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, he needs to know that you have crashed and burned and feel true remorse and will never give a repeat performance.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he does know that. If I were to crash and burn completely, then I couldn't support my children. My job is demanding, I have to be on my toes.

After my sibling ended their own life, I did crash and burn. (2 years before A started) I can't do that now, I feel I crash and burn enough on a daily basis--inside.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you may be making judgements on your childrens behalf. Would you want a mother who was unable to confide in you?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe in 'confiding' in my children about everything . Please, not for me. If , for example, I'd used drugs when young, or had an active sex life, many partners-- I certainly wouldn't tell my children. (I missed out on all this, as a young person--I chose to rebel--in my forties--with the A)

Furthermore, let's imagine one of my parents had an affair in their lifetime, would I want to know? (married 50 years now) Heavens , no!

You're right, it's LB to tell him it's sad he's alone. I do know that he never liked being alone before, so it does make me sad to think of that now for him.

SHARON
Thanks for your note, too. It's nice you admire me. I will try to learn from this mistake in my life, for sure! I've thought of you too, and hope all is well . I like your weed killer analogy..clever.|


checkers

Thanks for clarifying, Checkers. Your message gave me a hearty laugh at the end--the reference to crayons was fantastic. Thanks for that.

I feel I can put his happiness in front of my desires. I guess I just feel that in light of everything, I could make him happy again. If I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't be this 'crazy' about trying to reconcile with him. We were best friends for years, never needing others besides our kids. That can happen again.

Thanks for all of your help!!
God Bless,
H_P

H-P hi,

You know best,

Please can you explain these words to me. Did you want to have put your husband in a sort of "c o c k" fight with OM?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize now that exH wasn't equipped to be an aggressive combatant in the whole mess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Hi Older,
Actually, interesting question. My exH always showed very little jealousy, or posessiveness. Note I said, "showed" it, I'm sure he felt it deep in him.

I think part of me did want a reaction from him, indeed. He never even suspected an affair, and here I was going out a lot, online a lot, etc. I thought he knew, and didn't care. That is the truth of it.

I don't know why I wanted a reaction, but I did. He just never seemed to care much, (didn't show it as far as jealousy) although I am sure he did feel it. Once right after D Day he did tell me he was very jealous. I told him he didn't have to be jealous as the OM couldnt hold a candle to him.

But you're right, for some sick sort of reason I think I did want a REACTION from my H. Never got one, except complete repulsion of me.

I know I've said much here in a quick spurt, but I had the time so there you are.

H_P

H-P hi,

I don't really understand the timing here.

Look at these phases.

1)You started chatting to a friend and discussed it with H.
2)It became an EA.
3)It went PA.
4)Separated from H. H moved out.
5)H discovered A
6)H filed for divorce.

Are these the phases and is the sequence right?

Who initiated the separation ?

At what point did you start lying about the extent of the contact with your friend ?

At what point in this mess do you wish he had fought for you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him he didn't have to be jealous as the OM couldnt hold a candle to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H-P, That is one hell of a selfish thing to have said

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

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