Hello,
Thank you Sharon and Bud for your replies. I 've been out all day, and I'll have to comment on them tomorrow, as I don't have the energy to make any sort of sense here now.

Bud-a special thanks to you for replying, in light of your 'lurker' status. It means much to me that you felt my situation warranted a comment from you. I read your comments this morning, before I left, and have been thinking about them on and off all day long. Very thought provoking, indeed!

I'll reply tomorrow night. Big workday coming soon!

Take care,
H_P

I have to agree with bud.

It must be hard for your ex to listen to your pleading. If you had no children then it would be just between the two of you. But he has a bond with those children who are in your house. He doesn't have any bond with you.

I think also that since your ex is reserved and you chose to replace him with a "touchy feely" type is very revealing. You and the OM needed something that your ex doesn't.

I feel like Bud that you owe it to yourself and your ex to move on.

HP-

I can truly say from the bottom of my heart that your pursuit in this recovery will benefit you in ways that I am only now coming to understand. You are going through a process that will eventually lead you to a freedom and peace that you have NEVER known. THe great thing in this is that you will get there, regardless of the outcome of you "R" with you H.

Continue on the path that you are on until YOU feel that you don't want to any longer. Amazing things will happen, either way.

Hugs,

Dear MB people,

Hope you are all doing well. Thanks to all of you who have helped me these past 5 1/2 months here.

Before I respond to your posts, I wanted to just say a few things about the conversation with my exh the other night. Gosh, that was already on Thursday.

I still love the man. I can't give up yet. He did tell me, and forgive me if I repeat it--he told me he didn't want to give it a 'try' again because if it didn't work out that would only be giving false hope to the kids. I said, "They don't have to know, " meaning he and I could see each other alone, to begin with... He simply said, "No."

I am perhaps an eternal optimist, but I do feel that AT LEAST he is thinking of a slight possibility . He also brought up that he hadn't changed, that he still didn't make plans--and I said, 'That's fine, I don't mind making them."

Anyway, I followed up my LONG conversation with him on Thursday by a LONG email that I sent on Saturday morning. I haven't heard a word, nor did I expect to hear anything.

BTW , he did tell me on the phone that he felt I was sincere, and that I loved him. He simply said he was 'stressed out' during our marriage, and that he hadn't had a stomachache since he'd been alone. I simply said that if one doesn't interact and have conversations with people, one won't feel the pain of conflict. I really didn't know what to say. I told him I was different now, more calm. He doesn't see how me having a demanding, full time job can make me more mellow. I explained that before I was not putting enough mental energy into anything, thus I picked at things, including him. Now I don't have the energy to pick at things. I do enough analyzing and 'figuring' at work. He simply doesn't see that I've changed much, I suppose. He NEVER will know I've changed if he won't spend time with me, will he?

Now to respond to you nice people who added your thoughts:

Kily,
YOu're sweet to think I got the man thinking. He told me though that he 'hasn't lost sleep' over all of this. I don't think he will, either. He simply isn't the type to do so.

YOu're kind to say he's welcoming my calls. I don't quite see them as being welcomed, but at least he doesn't say he has to go right away. In fact, he never quite does. I end the calls when his tone sounds like he's had enough.

KIly- I responded to your 2nd response at the bottom of this long message. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BTW- I've been reading your thread. Will comment there at a later time. My thoughts are with you, GF.

BUD-

Thanks for posting, you long-time lurker! I truly appreciate the time you took to do so. Your words made me think, of course.

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When my XW found herself a better lover than me, well, I've never felt such pain...I really was doing the best I could, but it wasn't good enough.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see how you viewed it, indeed. For the record, and I can only speak for myself--OM wasn't a 'better lover' at all. It was a mere mind game of sorts, a strange addiction for me.
Encounters, if you will, made me feel very unfulfilled and not happy at all. What I really got from him was conversation, I suppose. And LOTs of admiration, for awhile. Very expressive, etc...until I got to really know him. All along, I compared him to exH, and exH was always on top. My guilt led me to separation--tired of lying. Huge mistake, I should have ended it.

Also, you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, as with you, when things soured with her OM....I started looking better and better to her again. hooray. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I asked exH to reconcile right after DDay. He always looked better to me. I truly can't explain the whole thing. It was a combination of MLCrisis and a horrible, selfish, ego trip on my part. Hard to admit, but it was like it wasn't me.

You then said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We know we weren't good enough for you, and that's unlikely to ever change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, he was BETTER than me, my exH. I was so very unwise, to do what I did. I have told him that many times. I hope in time he believes me.

You then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There's a lot of talk on MB about "forgiveness"....but, I think to forgive is not in the realm of us mortals...only the Almighty can do that. For the rest of us....it's what can we try to forget? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know, but it appears to me that many here at MB have talked about forgiving their spouses. I can forgive people for things, many people truly can--if they want to do so. I do believe it is in our realm to forgive. Just my opinion.

You also talked about your fascinating 9-11-01 experience:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My "epiphany" came on 9-11-01, when I was very nearly killed in the Pentagon attack. That changed my whole perspective on things. Life is just too damned short to spend it with someone
who will sell you out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read your other post, where you talked about this experience. Wow! Amazing, indeed. I don't mean to be harsh, either--but please consider seeing those three kids of hers once in a while, can't you? Don't you think they deserve it? It's not my place to judge, but they didn't do anything to you--she did.

YOu then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> , I blame her for creating this situation, as I'm sure your X does. I SO wish she'd just told me she wasn't happy with me...BEFORE she found the other guy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By the way, I did 'tell' my exH about the other guy. Right after I met him online, I told my exH that I 'd talked to someone online who was so interesting and fascinating. He showed no jealousy, or concern. He knew I'd sent him a photo, not too much concern. Right before I met OM, he said, "I don't like it, but if you do meet him just to meet him face to face, I don't want to know about it." Another thing he told me, in our marriage, "I would rather have you cheat, than divorce."

I am not making excuses at all, but you can see where his words might have made me feel a bit unappreciated. I have brought this up to him, and of course he now regrets having said them. I still entirely take 'credit' for my error, but let's say he certainly didn't show much caring about me in the words he said.

Bud, you then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'll NEVER turn my heart over to a woman again...
Nope, never. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Come on, that's not fair. Give it time--love is good, and why love without putting your heart into it?

You're not 'the skunk at the picnic', as you so divinely said. I appreciate your honesty.

This was something else you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The time you are wasting waiting on your XH could be much better spent seeking your next relationship. The closer you get to age 50.....the fewer of those SN guys are you going to be able to attract. Don't waste time on a lost cause....9-11 taught me that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, I am not simply just interested in SN in a man. I learned a lot about my SN from being with OM. Quite frankly, when I didn't have a career, I was just plain old picky about everything. My exH and I did have a beautiful S life in many ways, and I truly miss him. He wasn't the ridiculously obsessed man that OM was , in that department--but S with OM was a very empty, tiresome experience.

Secondly, I don't understand the part about getting close to fifty and it being easier to find a 'SN man'. That is to say, I do know what you're saying as far as attractiveness, but I have faith that if this doesn't work out, with exH--that I'll find love someday. Or, it will find me. I'm 43 now. I know many women in their late fifties who are happily remarried recently after being single for 10-15 years. People of all ages want partners, love--not just young people with nubile bodies. I'm not as firm as I was even four years ago, but I still think I'm worthy of love, and I will be in the future, too.

Thanks for the compliments as far as my 'poise and intellect'. I appreciate your wishes for the best. Thanks again for responding!!! Please respond again sometime, if you have the yearning.

Sharon,
Thanks for responding to me, too. I do stop and smell the roses, as much as I can. I have a wonderful , artistic hobby that I spend about 15 hours a week doing. I have time with my girlfriends---went out with different sets of friends the last two weekends. (One group, professional network, the others--longtime friends of 20, 12 years)

I don't think about dating as I am still in love and wanting my exH. ( I know you weren't suggesting it, just discussing here) I do have men occasionally try to talk with me, in the store and such--but I don't return their friendliness. Quite honestly, men tried to pick up on me more ten years ago when I was in my early thirties, and married. (the age thing again, who knows) The thought is repulsive to me at this time-dating, so I know it's not for me.

I'm so HAPPY for you, and how well you're doing. YOu are wonderful to have adjusted so well.

Older and Wiser,
Thanks too for replying. I appreciate your opinion, and that you agree with Bud.

I don't see my talking to my ex as pleading, but I do see that perhaps he sees it as such. I merely am talking with him, and he does respond. I told him that I didn't think I should have to beg for love, he knows that. I just want him to know I do care about him.

You then said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you had no children then it would be just between the two of you. But he has a bond with those children who are in your house. He doesn't have any bond with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps it's my ego again, but I feel we do have a bond. We were close friends for 8 years before marriage in 1981. That means we share a 30 year relationship. We are bonded through years of experiences that we've never shared with anyone else. I perhaps sound defensive, but I see that he and I are bonded in some way--and we will be in some slight way forever by our shared history.

You then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think also that since your ex is reserved and you chose to replace him with a "touchy feely" type is very revealing. You and the OM needed something that your ex doesn't.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I need hugs? Yes--my exH gave me those. Until my A began, exH and I always held hands in public--always.

I don't need a man hanging on me all the time, which is what OM was about. It actually got old, and downright embarrassing at times-in public. I will admit--it started out novel, interesting, intriguing--but it really isn't a requirement of mine. With OM it was like he was a bottomless pit---it was never enough. (sex, affection, attention)

I appreciate it that you said I owe it to me and exH to move on. I will do that, IF there is no progress made let's say TWO YEARS AT LEAST after my divorce is final. That means I have to wait until August 2004 to move on. Even then I might not, unless he's moved on completely, and is married. The affair lasted, all told---almost four years. Perhaps I should allow a good four years after it ended--until August 2006 to wait out my exH. That sounds reasonable to me. I'll be 47 then--and that is certainly 'young enough' to find love. (Goodness--I've read of people in their eighties finding love!!) I know this sounds weird, but I see waiting--and being ALONE-- as part of the price I pay, for what I did.

Kily,
Thanks for your support and for reminding me that this is a process--and that I'll benefit from going through this recovery. You're right.

Thanks for saying,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Continue on the path that you are on until YOU feel that you don't want to any longer. Amazing things will happen, either way.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wholeheartedly agree with you. Right now my sons and daughter need me, without the confusion of entanglements with any other adult males. I am happy to wait for their father to change his mind, if he ever does. If he doesn't ..then as you say, I'll be better off for having gone through the process.

Thanks again to all.

JL, Lisa in London, TMCM--I miss your replies, too.

What does anyone think, BTW, on exH's latest remark that the A was the 'last straw' but he was unhappy with me, for years...is that fog?

Take care,
H_P

H_P,

Well, I have lots to say but I am pretty tired. These 14 hour days do wear me down.

I think you really need to look at Buds comments carefully.

You responded to one of his comments </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, no, he was BETTER than me, my exH. I was so very unwise, to do what I did. I have told him that many times. I hope in time he believes me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may think this but my bet is your exH thinks very much like Buds does/did. In this regard you really don't know how men respond to rejection. They tend to accept it, feel it is their fault, and move on. I can assure to the day your exH dies, he will feel inferior to your OM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He will feel if a better version of OM comes along he would be out again. This is what you need to consider when you talk with him.

Now lets consider his comments about his feelings before the A. Yes, some of it was fog. Perhaps some of it was confusing what he felt when your A started with what he felt before. I also suspect he didn't dare tell you what he really felt, because he was afraid of you and losing you. Of course it helped you do what you wanted to do.

I suspect you don't really understand what I am saying. Let's take his words as honest and yes true. Why would he feel this way? My guess is your "picking" at things really bothered him. You must understand most people who are not very open are not very open for a reason. That reason is almost always self-preservation. THe reason they feel that way varies.

Your H had stomach aches because while you didn't notice or think what you said to him was bad, it was killing him inside. In could be insecurity, but whatever, he felt his defenses constantly under attack. Do you see how that could get to him.

His comment about being selfish, now was telling. He was giving all he could because he thought it would protect him. It didn't. It wasn't enough for you.

Now H_P if you feel these comments have a ring of truth, I think you might have a better idea on how to address this. Yes, taking time and going slow is the order of the day.

But, perhaps (and I only throw this out for your consideration and discussion) you need to talk to him sometime. You need to explain to him that you are really really bothered that your presence in the marriage caused him so much trouble and distress. You like to ask him some questions for your own benefit, if he would be kind enough to answer. And then ask if your "picking", perhaps criticism, or something was making him feel you didn't love him. Ask him if he could tell you more about how he felt and what you did that made him feel this way.

He may ask why? I would answer because I will always deeply regret that I had an A, but I can never forgive myself for hurting you when I was really trying to love you before the A. I need closure on this and you are the only one that can help me.

I would not debate a single thing he says to you. I would only support it, or just listen.

Your H has some issues of his own. Your actions have really pushed them hard. But you need to understand just because you don't think he feels inferior or should feel this way, doesn't mean he didn't even before the A.

H_P this is going to require time and a very gentle touch. Your exH was trying his best it seems despite his issues and limitations. He is very likely acutely aware of his limitations. What he doesn't understand is you don't necessary view them as bad and they have in fact led him to do some very good things for you.

H_P think long and hard about this. Replay your conversation over, read these latest posts over. I think there is information in there that might help.

He may never come back, but you have some unfinished business with this man and you know it. One of those unfinished items in my opinion is seeing who he really is and approving of it. You don't know how much that could help him.

Must go. Sorry I couldn't write longer or proofread this mess.

God Bless,

JL

H-P,

JL's reply is very pertinent.

I haven't his literacy but let me try and say it bluntly which alas I am good at.

You come across to me as seeking the sort of realtionship that you used to see in old films.
Mother, Father , kids, dogs, nice house, nice car and all that stuff, every one with a grin on their face.

Well you married a guy who was far from that image. He is stoic to use buds adjective. He hated all that shallow stuff. He probably knew right from wrong, he always tried very hard, he probably knew success but sadly from time to time failure. I bet he worshipped the ground you walked on even if you nagged.

Now I bet guys like that don't know what to say when their wife tells them they've met this lovely guy on internet and they are going to meet them. One half of them wants to kill the slimy sod and the other half says I'm at the end of my rope, I have nothing left, everything I ever did was for you and our family and now you want this. But what your husband said to you was excessively loving. He sent a message which said I love you so much I want your happiness. I won't divorce you. Cheat on me if it makes you happy.

And you took that as what? He doesn't care. That shows how little you know that ex of yours. But that wasn't important to you. Understanding wasn't in your script at that moment. That was the death knell of your relationship.

Think H-P, I wasn't there but I have been in the same boat. I bet it was like that.

So your stoic is now rewriting history to keep you at arm's length. You two were never really on the same page. His character you never understood. You never began to understand the depth of love he had for you.

What makes it unlikely he will change his mind?

2 things come to my mind.

Stoics are not nice all the way through. They preserve their indifference by passionately hating everything that is trivial, sentimental, vain etc. Your OM for example. If your husband understands what type of extrovert you left him for my bet says you have no chance.

He loves his children and knows that what he can pass on to them is the prime objective in his life. What message does he think going back to you sends to them?

I'm sorry it is blunt but it is sent with more than a little sympathy for your pain.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Hello,

I have nothing new to add from my last update. Life is too busy-I suppose it's a blessing having such a demanding career. It keeps my mind off of my huge loss in life regarding my marriage.

Adding this-the next day. Feeling very low last evening after DD left to go back to school. Furthermore I'd been working on a project all day, and was sick of it. At 9:30 I decided to go to the all night copy place to make copies for a huge work presentation. I was going to go today, but just thought it was better to get it done.

Anyway, I ran into a couple at the copy place that gave me HOPE . I'd forgotten about them. It was my former physician (he's retired, mid sixties) and his wife. He'd DIVORCED this woman, after a LONG marriage and 3 children-- married another one and had a child with this young woman--the 2nd wife--about 20 years his junior. This was about 10 years ago. He then divorced 2nd wife and REMARRIED his first wife a few years later. That was about six years ago, the remarriage to the first one. I of course don't know the 'whole' story, but I do know I'd seen him in public once with his new, younger wife and child. I think I can figure it out, the 'story'. I know it probably seems irrelevant to bring this up, but as I said I was DOWN when I went out to this copy place. It did give me a bit of hope to see a couple who'd remarried. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but for now I'll grasp at any sort of hope at all.

JL
Thanks for your reply. It is so kind of you. THanks, I will reread Bud's comments again. I'm sure they're close to how my exH feels/felt.

I have told my exH many times that the OM couldn't hold a candle to him, in any way--but I am sure you're right, I'm sure he doesn't believe me. He is an insecure man, and I blew it all the more as far as building him up.

Yes, you're right JL. My exH even during our marriage said he didn't like telling me the truth often as I had some sort of reaction. I am not a nagging 'fishwife' type of woman. My personality is lively, yes. I feel that my exH had a lot of 'stuff' from viewing his own parents' marriage. He projected that onto our R. His mom and dad were EXTREMELY distant with his other. He never in his life saw them touch, not even once. It was like they were married (50+ years) but living separate lives. His mom never said one kind thing about his dad , ever. And vice versa. Talk about critical--his mom was very critical of his dad. I know I wasn't anything even approaching that level, but I know that my exH's viewing of this sort of R in his parents was detrimental.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My guess is that your "picking" at things really bothered him. You must understand most people who are not very open are not very open for a reason. That reason is almost always self-preservation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I didn't 'pick' at him as much as I see MOST women 'pick' at their husbands. It is like he couldn't accept any comment at all, on anything.

I will have that conversation you are suggesting I have with him, about the way I treated him. He and I always talked much in our marriage, and there was a recurring theme. No matter how much I said I loved him, admired him, and no matter how much I did--he never believed me at all. He thought I was mad, when I wasn't. In some ways it was like walking on egg shells.

Yes, he was stoic--but not a rock.He cried many times, openly (wedding day, births of children, deaths, many, many other times--not always just at milestones) He laughed heartily at many things, too. He just is a man of few words-bottom line.

I told him MANY times during the marriage that it bothered me that I caused him so much anxiety. He even sought medical treatment at one time, for anxiety he had with me--at certain times. It was a very sad thing, indeed, but we got through it. Then, the internet and my decision to get involved with OM. It is still like it wasn't me, that's still how it feels.

BTW, I have told him that I'm really sad, and bothered, that I didn't make him happy and relaxed. I always felt he loved me unconditionally, and I know he never felt like that from me. I have told him I'm sorry that I made him feel stress. I really feel badly that he felt this way, inside. I'm not really some sort of 'witch' woman. AS I said earlier, 90% of my female friends are MUCH stronger with their husbands than I ever was, with him.

He always told me he put me on a pedestal, and that I was too good for him. I always told him that the contrary was true, but he never believed me.

I know it will take time. Quite frankly I am feeling more and more resigned that this man simply doesn't want me in his life. We'll just have to see. I can't force anything--I've told him how I feel, he knows I love him--what more can I do, besides patiently wait.

JL--you're right when you say:
"Your exH was trying his best it seems despite his issues and limitations. He is very likely acutely aware of his limitations. What he doesn't understand is you don't necessary view them as bad and they have in fact led him to do some very good things for you."

I have told him just that, already, but he simply doesn't care what I have to say, at this point. Maybe in time.
You're so right, unfinished business!

Olderandwiser

Thanks for your reply,too.

You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You come across to me as seeking the sort of realtionship that you used to see in old films.
Mother, Father , kids, dogs, nice house, nice car and all that stuff, every one with a grin on their face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Older, I realize this is simply a website, and you're only getting a little picture of who I am. Actually, I certainly never viewed myself as wanting a relationship such as you portray, above.
A family--yes--a happy one most of the time, of course, don't we all want that? It sounds defensive, I'm sure, to answer you this way, but I feel I must. Yes, we have kids--and a dog--but we never were able to afford 'nice' things at all. Those things haven't ever mattered to me. A supportive , loving family did/does. I was/am content to live in a blue collar/older neighborhood--still do, and drive a car more than a decade old--until it quit on me. The carpet where I live should have been replaced when exH and I moved in here, 13 years ago. We never even had a dishwasher in this older home. The grins on our faces--not at all. ExH and I endured the deaths of both of our siblings throughout our marriage, the death of one of his nieces, and many other true life crises. I never saw life as a mere string of events that included shallow people with 'grins' on their faces, waving at others from their 'nice' cars from the driveway of their 'nice' home.

I do know people like that, the type you mentioned in your response--but I am not one of them. We always lived and I still live BELOW our means, as we/I didn't care to impress others at all with 'things'.

My husband is stoic, but he's also sensitive.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He hated all that shallow stuff. He probably knew right from wrong, he always tried very hard, he probably knew success but sadly from time to time failure. I bet he worshipped the ground you walked on even if you nagged.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, there was nothing 'shallow' in our marriage, nor in my needs. To me, to be called 'shallow' is a true insult indeed. I know many, many shallow people, as I said-- and I am not one. Never have been, never will be.

Secondly, I don't think I quite 'nagged' the way you think I may have. I am fairly easy going about many things. There were many projects, etc, that exH never finished. I never said even a word about them. I never did, never will. I always knew that I wasn't perfect, not at all, so it wasn't worth picking at him for this stuff.

I know that you didn't mean to offend me, Olderandwiser, and you didn't offend me . I just feel you have an inaccurate portrait of who I am, but that's understandable given the venue in which we're communicating.

In case you'd like to know, I did 'pick' at one thing. I always wanted him to make plans, and he never would. That is what he brought up the other night. I now tell him that I don't care, I'll make them.

You truly made me think, and I appreciate that very much. You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I bet guys like that don't know what to say when their wife tells them they've met this lovely guy on internet and they are going to meet them. One half of them wants to kill the slimy sod and the other half says I'm at the end of my rope, I have nothing left, everything I ever did was for you and our family and now you want this. But what your husband said to you was excessively loving. He sent a message which said I love you so much I want your happiness. I won't divorce you. Cheat on me if it makes you happy.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOu're right though. I did see it as a mixed message of he doesn't care, and that he loves me so much I can do whatever I want. The latter is true more than the former! I felt he would love me forever, no matter what--what a stupid, immature woman I was. You're right, I wasn't understanding, either.

I did, by the way, understand the depth of love he had for me. I simply took it for granted, and that was the wrong thing to do.

I do know men who are true stoics. My exH is not one of them. Perhaps then I do have some hope.

It is late now, I feel I can't make any more sense tonight. Olderandwiser--you were blunt--yes, but I appreciate it. Thanks for being direct. As I said earlier, as far as 'shallow' goes--that's your opinion. Duly noted...

I truly think that exH doesn't want to come back as it's easier to live alone, without any emotion expressed. That's how he grew up, and that's how he likes life the best, perhaps.

Thanks again..hope this makes sense. It's late.
H_P

<small>[ February 10, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H-P,

I did say that was "How you came over to me". It sounds as though I was wrong about you and probably your husband too.

If my words have helped you to see how badly you may have hurt him and that reserved people really do not have any time for extraverts I'm glad.

I hope you find a way to get closure on this for all of you.

H_P-

I caught up on your last few posts and wanted to commend you for rocking the boat a little bit. You're going to need answers to these questions anyway so I think it's good you've given him somthing to think about. There was one comment that stuck out to me:

"Finally, I asked him if I should just give up completely, and not ask him ever again. He couldn't say yes to that. That was interesting. He avoided it. He said something to the effect of , "If you need to vent, you can call.""

IMO, this is a further indicator that he's not willing to give up on the idea of a R with you at some point in the future. Problem is, he's most likely not thought of any time frames and you're not willing to hold on forever. It also sounds as though he's fairly comfortable with the present arrangement. In some ways, it's kind of like some WS's that start running from a loving but over bearing BS and, after awhile, forget why they started running in the first place. You've got plenty left in the LB but have you thought about detaching a bit yourself? Unlike some others, I think you've got reasons for optimism. I do think it's going to require some "out of the box" creativity to get it done though. Good luck and god bless...

H_P,

Given your H's family history, has he ever been checked for the many 'anxiety' disorders. I know several famous athletes suffered from them, to the point they couldn't go out in public. Your H doesn't have THAT sort of issue, but he was very sensitive to you and what you did, hence his nervousness.

You see it appears from what you say that he hasn't sought out any other female companionship. He seems more comfortable alone. This suggests that while your A broke him in many ways, he had other issues that were at work here.

I'll be frank with you H_P, I oscillate between thinking this can work and asking myself would I let my W back in after a 4 year A? I cannot give you an honest answer. I would like to say "sure I could do that." But, I don't know. My guess is that I would have moved on, given it 6 months to a year to heal after the divorce and then see if there was someone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yet, when I read your posts and I sense the love you have for him, I WANT YOU TO SUCCEED. I don't think he could find someone that could love him as much and yet fully understand him and herself as you do.

I think if this is to work, something is going to have to happen in his life. I don't know what but something and you will need to be there for him. But, that requires that you hang on for quite awhile with no other encouragement. Not a particularly pleasing situation.

Why do I think that?

I was reflecting on what you could offer him.

1. Conversation - he doesn't seem to need that from you.

2. Sex - he doesn't seem to need that from you.

3. Domestic support - he doesn't need that from you.

4. Help with finances - you are getting money from him.

5. Companionship - you make him anxious

6. Love - He doesn't trust it.

7. Someone to share hobbies with - I don't know.

In short at this juncture I don't see him NEEDING much from you. Something is going to have to open him up to the concept that you do love him, and that it is a good thing that you do.

I think you need to continue contact with him as you can. But, somehow something is going to reach into his heart and let him see the possibilities.

I just don't know what to offer you in the way of advice. I'll keep thinking.

God Bless,

JL

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I still have nothing new to report at all in my life with exH. I wasn't home when he picked up the boys on Friday, and on Sundays he drops them off so quickly that I never have the chance to run out there and say hello. Our house is arranged in a way where it's hard to see what's going on in the front of it.

The last communication I had with him was an email I sent a few days ago, thanking him for picking up our son's Rx. He isn't replying--I think I've had one reply that was unsolicited in the last 6 months. I did mention in a previous email that I needed some tax advice/help, but I'll have to call him for that. He never replied to that 'plea' via email.

I do feel much stronger than I did when I first came to MB. Thanks for your help--so many of you have answered my threads. I don't feel the depression I felt a few months ago, either. I don't know how I functioned in the early/mid fall. I guess I simply functioned as I had to do it, no one else could do it for me.

Our daughter commented last night that she thought it was a good thing her dad hadn't bought a house. She felt it showed he still had ideas of reconciliation. (I was always the initiator of our few moves, etc, I feel he's just comfortable where he's at and doesn't want to exert the energy of home buying--who knows) I don't quite see it that way. I then told her that her dad told me he's upset at how I made him feel during the marriage, and it wasn't anything to do with OM. Naturally I didn't bring up 'anxiety' in regards to her dad, to our daughter. She said in her opinion it was all about OM, and the other ideas were just a smokescreen. She is 19 years old, so I feel it's a good thing for her to talk about how her feelings to me.

OlderandWiser -
Thanks for your reply. I agree, you did say it was how I came across to you. Understood ,completely!

This was interesting too- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If my words have helped you to see how badly you may have hurt him and that reserved people really do not have any time for extraverts I'm glad.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for that. I am also an introvert, by the way, just like my exH. Every personality test I've ever taken identifies me as one. In my case, I simply act more than he does at being friendly and outgoing. Inside I'm quaking at many social events. To me a perfect day is sitting home, enjoying my familiy, and not having to go anywhere. Interacting with people tends to tire me out. In that way he and I were well-matched. He was my refuge from the world, but unfortunately he didn't view me as such for him.

Thanks , Older, for your good wishes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Litchfield ,
Thanks for responding, too. I suppose I did rock the boat a bit, although the boat appears to be going nowhere at this point. That's fine by me, I'm very patient.

THANKS for some well needed encouragement. It seemed that lately others here were telling me to move on. I completely respect their opinions, too.

I agree, exH hasn't given up completely. He couldn't tell me to NEVER ask him again, for a reconciliation of any sorts. I was prepared that evening to hear him say, "Forget it, forever!"

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IMO, this is a further indicator that he's not willing to give up on the idea of a R with you at some point in the future. Problem is, he's most likely not thought of any time frames and you're not willing to hold on forever. It also sounds as though he's fairly comfortable with the present arrangement. In some ways, it's kind of like some WS's that start running from a loving but over bearing BS and, after awhile, forget why they started running in the first place. You've got plenty left in the LB but have you thought about detaching a bit yourself? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mind waiting several years, at least, to make sure he's really through with me. My job and children take up much of my energy. In a way, I feel a bit down about love, completely. Up until the A, I was an honest, loving human being. I messed up, and now I feel at times that even my faith in everything is shaken. It's especially hard, again, to see the forgiving people here on MB.

But you're right, and I think I've naturally detached a bit. I don't obsess over exH quite as much , probably out of sheer self preservation. I've accepted that this is his choice. Yesterday I had lunch with a girlfriend of mine who never met either my exH or OM. I met her about 3 years ago, at graduate school. Without even knowing exH, she too suggested detaching a bit. Litchfield, do you say that so that it might make me appear more attractive--the detaching part, to not be so willing, so 'needy'? Forgive the question as I know it might sound stupid. I'm just wondering what your reasoning is on it.

Thanks for your help, and thanks for your optimism!

J.L. ,

Thanks AGAIN for replying and giving me much to ponder.

Yes, ExH has been checked for an anxiety disorder. He was given an Rx for certain situations that made him feel especially nervous.
His mother used to get anxious, too. I do too, to a degree, and as they say, "Birds of a feather flock together."

He is more comfortable alone. I was the only girlfriend he ever had. I guess I am naive in not thinking about it being a four year A. It was, indeed. I guess because OM lived far away for three years of it, I view it as not as long as it truly was--emotionally.

I think if he were a different type of man he would already have a girlfriend, at the very least. He just is a lot like me, really, content to work hard and focus on the tasks of life. In that way we were quite similar, until I hit what I still call a MLC. (people think this is trivializing it, but it does happen! Either a MLC or a complete breakdown of sorts...)

JL, dear JL--THANKS for wanting me to succeed. I want that, too. I quite frankly have asked him if he thinks anyone loves him like I do, and he never answered me. I just don't know how to get him to open up at all. Thanks for your vote of confidence in my love for him.

I too have thought exactly what you mentioned, that something drastic has to happen in his life for him to see he needs me. I always wanted him, in our marriage, to tell me he needed me. He never really could. I think it's a hard concept for him, to need someone.

Thanks for your listing of what I could offer him. In a way, it seemed depressing to see how little he does need me--spelled out. But, you're right.

My take now, if I may....

You said,

"1. Conversation - he doesn't seem to need that from you. "

My response- Quite frankly he doesn't seem to need it from anyone, too much at all!

You said,

"2. Sex - he doesn't seem to need that from you."
My response- He never had much of a drive, compared to 'tales' one hears about other men. However, if he does need it from me he's suppressed it completely.

"3. Domestic support - he doesn't need that from you."
My response- Yes, and when I point out to him that we could finally have a lifestyle of more leisure after years of struggle, he doesn't care at all. I make more than 4 times what I made when we were married. In a way though, it's refreshing that he doesn't care about material things.

"4. Help with finances - you are getting money from him."
He could pay off his credit cards if we were together--he doesn't seem to care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"5. Companionship - you make him anxious"
This was hard to read, but for now it's true. It will take time for him to relax, and it seems I never made this guy relaxed enough.

"6. Love - He doesn't trust it."
Sad, but true.

7. Someone to share hobbies with - I don't know.
This is true. I miss this very much!

I think you're right, I do need to continue contact with him. I just don't want to bug him. It is very hard, isn't it?

I've noticed too, that quite understandably, he's become much 'harder' than he ever was. He and I used to laugh a lot together, that's all gone. I pointed out to him something he'd done, that I thought was funny in a good way, and he only seemed annoyed. It's like I don't know him so well anymore. He has such a 'wall' around him.

I need to ask for his help with taxes, but I 'm sure he'll act strange about that this year. Last year he did them for me, etc.

Thanks for your reply, JL--and please keep thinking of possibilities. I just keep thinking,

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

and that country western song from a while ago,

"If it will, it will."

Take care and thanks to anyone who read this LONG reply of mine!

Rereading it made me sit here and cry, so I guess the pain is still there if I dwell on this whole situation.

H_P

I edited my prevous post, but it didn't 'take'. I don't know what I did wrong.

Just wanted to add a bit of hope that I felt last night, but it was my hope--and had nothing to do with exH.

Last night I was feeling down again. I did go out to make copies at the all night place close to 10:00. It's rare that I do an errand at such an hour, but I felt compelled to go last night. I happened to see a couple there who I knew had remarried after divorcing. It was my former physician, now retired. During their period of divorce (several years long), he was married to someone else and even had a child with her. She was about 20 years younger. I don't know the whole story, but it was a bit reassuring to see a remarriage of divorced people, again, even after he'd married someone else and had a child with the 2nd one. (sad though, another divorce and sad situation for the child from the 2nd marriage, no doubt) I guess there's always room for hope.

Do I share this story with exH, or let it be? I'm inclined to let it be as he doesn't want to hear anything from me.

Thanks , MB friends,
H_P

Hi HP-

A sign? Perhaps.

Sounds like you are doing well for yourself.

I encourage you to continue on your quest. I think that you have the potential of acheiving your dreams. Detachment will make you appear more desirable......

Hugs to you.

Hi Hopeful-

Boy do I sound like your husband. He is probably thinking "I love my wife with all of my heart, and I want to be with her with all of my heart...I just don't know if I can make her happy and meet her needs."

That is truly a hopeless feeling. To know your wife loves you but is not "In love"

The way I feel is like I know my wife doesn't want me to get hit by a truck, but doesn't exactly want to be with me.

Now I KNOW you have made efforts to show your husband that isn't the case for you and all I can say is keep doing it. He likes it and he will respond before the end of the year...I promise!

He is just scared that if things get rough you may head ffor greener pastures, which I know you won't...you are a much different person now. It really is heart breaking to know you were thrown away, but he will get over it with the kindness you are showing him

You don't know how much respect I have for you Hopeful and I don't even know you. Your husband will see this and respect you to. And respect preceeds love.

Baby Steps my dear, you'll get there. You are the exact opposisite of my wife.

I'll bet ya that by December 31, you will have tied the knot again! Keep the faith.

Thanks for responding to my post by the way, if you could offer some advise as to how I can handle her when she is acting like this, that would be great. I guess being confident might rattle her...what do you think?

Hope all is well Hopeful!

"do you say that so that it might make me appear more attractive--the detaching part, to not be so willing, so 'needy'? "

In a word, yes! If you can figure out how to come across as less needy and more self sufficient, it can only improve your chances of R. The fact that you needed more attention that he was willing to provide prior to the A was obviously a sticking point but I think it might be beneficial if you could somehow put that aside for now. One of the more painful lessons I've learned is the importance of making a relationship "safe" for someone to get back into. When you have years of history together as in your case, this can be difficult to pull off. However, the fact that he remains anxious with alot of your interactions shows that the old ways of communicating won't work (ie. you probing him to express his feeling). Your patience is going to be a key in this whole process though so don't lose hope HP! Good luck and god bless!

Thanks Kily, Litchfield, and Rlyhurtin for your replies.

I appreciate your encouragement very much. At times I really get down about the whole thing.

Tonight I had to drive by his apartment complex--they're on a main boulevard. It is so sad to me, to drive on past and know that he's there.

I have an old calendar in a storage closet off my kitchen that I haven't changed the month and year on since he left--October 2000. For me, that's when life quit in many ways. (No one around here has asked why the calendar is still there, on that month, year--teens here, you know) I know this seems crazy to people, as I was the WS, to feel this way. I really made the biggest mistake of my life, when I cheated on him. I suppose it's odd, too, to keep it the calendar there on that month and year. We all have our oddities, for sure. I'm usually not superstitious, I just can't say why I keep it there. I suppose I'm holding on to a past that is long gone, by keeping it up there.

I wrote him an email regarding tax advice a few days ago. No response. I guess I'll just let it go, for now.

Take care and thanks,
H_P

H-P hi, earlier I wrote to you

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He loves his children and knows that what he can pass on to them is the prime objective in his life. What message does he think going back to you sends to them?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and afterwards you wrote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our daughter commented last night that she thought it was a good thing her dad hadn't bought a house. She felt it showed he still had ideas of reconciliation. (I was always the initiator of our few moves, etc, I feel he's just comfortable where he's at and doesn't want to exert the energy of home buying--who knows) I don't quite see it that way. I then told her that her dad told me he's upset at how I made him feel during the marriage, and it wasn't anything to do with OM. Naturally I didn't bring up 'anxiety' in regards to her dad, to our daughter. She said in her opinion it was all about OM, and the other ideas were just a smokescreen. She is 19 years old, so I feel it's a good thing for her to talk about how her feelings to me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think hard about these questions please.

Could it be that your daughter has received a very clear message from her father that infidelity is wrong?

Wouldn't any father want to give his kids that message?

What would your daughter think about infidelity if he came back to you?

Just a thought.

HI All,
The week has flown by, it was a short one for me .

Nothing new at all except that exH was helpful to me as far as a problem a colleague of mine was having. It was a tax problem of sorts, and exH has a colleague at work whom exH asked on my behalf, for my colleague. Is that confusing enough? Anyway, he did help out. We only spoke very briefly on the phone, and he answered the ? via email.

I did have to call him at work today, and I was cut off short by an interruption at my work. I emailed him later on with an apology for hanging up so quickly--and I did add an "I love you" at the end. Sorry, maybe not the MB way...but I do love the man.

I had two nights in a row, the last two nights, of dreaming about being with him again. It is so, so hard.

If I didn't have my children to live for I would be inclined to do God knows for what I've done to my life, and my exH. That is truly how I feel. I never would harm myself, but that is the depth of my sorry and remorse.

OLDER,
Thanks for your reply. First of all, I don't know if my daughter understands the infidelity started before separation. SHe may know it, but she knows it was wrong during the separation--at the very least.

The funny thing is, before this happened my exH always spoke of understanding in the case of infidelity. He didn't understand how come people couldn't forgive, and work on it. He even mentioned that he understood how Hillary C. forgave Bill, for all of his issues. I truly am still shocked at how things are now, in light of how I knew the man. I guess you're right , Older, when you said I didn't know him. Maybe he didn't 'know' himself, either--before this happened... who knows. I certainly didn't know me, either--to do this.

No, I don't believe he's trying to pass on some sort of message about infidelity to our children. He has never discussed OM or our R with our children, that I am sure of. He is very private and doesn't discuss things like that with our kids. I truly believe he is happier alone as he at this point is too mad about the A to think of the beautiful times we shared. People who knew him before we were married, and then after--said that he looked so much happier with me that it was unbelievable. That makes it doubly sad, indeed...that I betrayed his love, I know that. So, I think he is still very angry and can't believe I could make him happy again. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

Feeling very blue this week, but trying to be positive still for some sort of future with my exH again.

Best wishes to all,
H_P

H-P,

I going to say this a third time then I'll give up. You really do not get it. Here goes.

1) Your ex doesn't communicate with you now at all. OK ?

2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has never discussed OM or our R with our children, that I am sure of. He is very private and doesn't discuss things like that with our kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He communicates with his kids by his actions.

3) You could communicate with your kids if you are prepared to listen. Your daughter has told you your affair was "beyond stupid" and that his discomfort with you during marriage was a smoke screen. She has received a message that adultery is bad.

4) If he goes back to you he sends a message that adultery is OK. OK?

5) Even before your affair, he may have spoken to you but you didn't understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The funny thing is, before this happened my exH always spoke of understanding in the case of infidelity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may call it funny. But the facts are these. No one can know what they would do until it happens to them. He was just saying "I love you".
You took it as a free ticket to have an affair.

H-P,
I'm not trying to hurt you but as far as communicating goes is he the problem or are you?

Older,

Thanks for the input. I'll respond later on when there's time to do so properly.

Take care,
H_P