Before I begin I do want yau'll to know that I am not here to judge anyone, just to get answers.

After I found out that my H had an A I was so obessed with the OW that I did not rest until I confronted her. I am the type of person who has always believed in everyone, trusted everyone, and thought that no one could ever hurt another. Call me naieve!! This has changed my way of thinkin of people.

I would like to know what the OW or the OM thinks of while having an A. I am talking about affairs with married people. (Only if you knew they were married). I wonder if the OW ever thought of me and my children. Was she ever sorry? Did she feel guilty?

Again, please do not feel as if I am judging, I just need answers so that I can move on.

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: TheCalypso ]</small>

Initially, I felt no guilt. She was a non-entity to me. Then we began to work together. She was put on my shift. This put me in the ncomfortable position of habing to spend a lot of time w/ her. I was her supervisor. Believe it or not, I grew to like her. I then began to feel a lot of guilt. I post on an OW board as femalesargeant. I posted there in the past about my feelings/guilt - if you have the desire to research old posts.

MM and I have now been living together almost 10 months. Her actions since their separation and divorce have absolved (sp?) me of all guilt I harbored. tewjtm

Honestly... answers about the OW are not going to heal YOU... it's all a smokescreen...

First focus on YOU and the answers inside you... that will help you see the dynamics between you and your spouse and, in turn, your marriage...

But to answer your Q... some OW/MM have lots of guilt... and others have not and the rest complete the spectrum between the two...

...but it doesn't really matter what they were thinking or are thinking... only matters what YOU do...

Cali

The Storm, I did not want you to feel I was blasting you or anyone else, "Stupid" was my H words not mine. Thank you so much for your comments. I think the reason that I am having such a hard time is that he works with her and I had nothing to go on except what he told me. All his actions make me think that he is sincere and that he really loves me and wants this to work. It is all in my hands now, that is why I need to understand this to be able to go on. Many say that I might not want or need to know everything.

Cali, I know that I am giving the OW way to much attention than she deserves. What I really want to do is to find out what made my H go to her so I can be sure that I can fulfill those needs. From what he has said and the things we have talked about the top on his need list are friendship/companionship, admiration. I guess we were living so much throught our children that these things weren't happening for him. I do take the blame for that.

Thanks again, please keep posting

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: TheCalypso ]</small>

So, FT, did you confront OW? Did it turn out the way you expected? I'm wondering if your question about what a WS is thinking is being driven by the response you got. Hopefully, the really good responses you're getting here have helped you overcome any alien-speak you may have heard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheStorm:
<strong>I think, though I'm not 100% sure, that I even tried to get her to understand that I REALLY loved him, as if that was going to make it ok somehow?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, Stormy, that brought back memories - or, should I say, a flashback!! (I appreciate your candor.) My XW actually attempted to convince her best friend - OM's W - that what she (my then-wife) was doing, falling in love with OM, was in the best interests of everyone - especially their three children because she loved them so much.

FT,

I ready your story the other day and I have to say that I really feel for you.

Let me begin by saying that I 100% agree with what Cali said. (hi cali!) However, if you feel like you'd like answers or that the curosity is killing you, i'll let you know.

I was TOW in a 10 year affair. I ended the relationship about 18 months ago and am currently dating a nice single guy (it's killing me). Yes I knew that he was married. I felt guilt from time to time, but mostly I didn't care. I was curious about his W, much like you're curious about your OW.

He told me so many mean things about her that I came to hate her. I felt like she didn't deserve him and that the children would be better off having a happy father than having an intact home. His kids (the older ones) know who I am and I can only assume that they knew what the deal was. It was the biggest open secret in town. He and his sons used to leave me these really cute phone messages.

I figured that his wife was either too dumb to know or didn't care. I never really thought about what the EMA was doing to her. I was more concerned with what it was doing FOR me.

Am I sorry? Honestly, not really. I struggle with the idea of guilt in the whole thing. I feel guilty that I really don't feel guilty. And if i'd have him he'd be back right now.

The dif for me is that I made some major changes in my life and he's no longer what I want.

I have spoken to his W twice on the phone and sent her a letter revealing the affair last christmas.

The politically incorrect truth is that I don't know this woman and I really don't like her. I don't empathize with her I don't care about her. Not really. I've only ever heard bad things about her for years and years. Then there was my own personal experience of her. Boy was she pissed with me.

Truthfully has she approached him in a soft way I would have thought her a fool. She came at me in an aggressive way and I found her sad and pathetic. Kind of a no win situation.

Hope the into helps

ks

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Feeling Tainted:
<strong>I would like to know what the OW or the OM thinks of while having an A. I am talking about affairs with married people. (Only if you knew they were married). I wonder if the OW ever thought of me and my children. Was she ever sorry? Did she feel guilty?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just after my divorce, I was single and sooooo not interested in an emotional "relationship." I did, however, want to have a sexual relationship. I spent about 6 weeks dating a married man. I knew he was married - and to a large extent that was perfect. I knew he would never want to stay over, never want to spend holidays or weekends with me, and never expect anything more. I felt no guilt or remorse, nor did I feel like I owed anything to his wife. In today's parlance you'd describe him as a "booty call" and nothing more.

I feel no real anger or resentment towards the women my FWH has been involved with. They owe me nothing, they made no vows or promises to me, they have no responsibility to me or my feelings. It is strictly my husband I took (and take) issue with, not them.

not judging, just stating an opinion. I'm always amazed that a BS who gets divorced can go out and actually have an A with someone else's spouse. Due to my H's A and my pain, I would never consider doing this to another human being. In fact, when I've been come onto by other men, married ones, it disgust me! I lose all respect for them and no way could I involve myself with someone I couldnt' respect. Or even feel was free to make a commitment to me. Shaking my head in wonderment at it.
The second observation is how some believe all the WS is telling them about the Spouse at home. Do you really believe all the lies? Or does it just make you feel good to think you're superior at the time? Anyone cheating on their S is not about to tell you how the marriage is so bad due to their failings. It's always the OP fault.
I can honestly say, my WS told enourmous lies about me. LOL Made me look so mentally challenged I'd never worked outside home.
The truth is I hold two professional licenses, have owned and run more than one successful business, and only quit to stay home at his request. That only due to our having a teenage son we felt needed more supervision.
When we married I had three businesses, and made far more money than he did. yet he made his last A think I was totally co dependent. And that he had all the responsibility and I was a Bi---. Well, it did get him sympathy and what he wanted at the time. Then I found out, he dumped her and she found out the truth.
Some WS and OW, OM do feel guilt. And do wake up to the truth in time. But of course, at the time it's ongoing, they are only thinking of their own pleasures and fun. That is human nature. The WS can put on a facade, be anyone they want to be, and build themselves a new persona with the OP. And of course, most times the OP needs to feel special to someone and believes every word that drops from the lovers lips.
Feeling Tainted, possible the only thing the OW ever thought of is that she was so much better than you, though she wasn't. And most likely didn't give a damn about you or your children. Otherwise, she'd not have been doing what she was doing. But make no mistake, in the end she knew she was a poor second to you and your children.
Bottom line is he is with you and states he wants you and his marriage.
most times, according to counselors, the OW is never even close to what the S is. Those who were surveyed, WS that is, admit the SEX was not as good as with Wife though exciting of course. It's just new and different. Most Wives are far more attractive also. This is what WS told counselors in Surveys that I'm quoting. Only 25% of A end in divorce. And of those marrying OP Only 5% make it. In fact, so many that end in divorce never wind up with the OP after all.
I think most fall into an A not because the other Person is so wonderful. But because they can play fantasy out of making themselves look so much different than they are. After all, We spouses already know them well and know their shortcomings. Stroking the ego is what is is mostly about, I'm convinced. So I guess we Spouses need to stroke egos more? Some emotional need they are failing to get from us no doubt.
I can't speak for all, but for me, knowing she works with him, I'd have to meet her and have lunch with her and pick her brain also. I couldn't do that with h A, but I did talk to her on phone. she seemed to know I was not second fiddle to him, and she told me so. Said they weren't compatible at all. Just a fantasy to both she said. I believe that.
Don't let OW steal any more of your peace of mind! She's not worth it. God bless, LouLou

tewjtm
MM and I have now been living together almost 10 months. Her actions since their separation and divorce have absolved (sp?) me of all guilt I harbored. tewjtm
So the end justifies the means?

BTW - if he is now divorced, he is no longer an MM.

As a former OW, the title of your thread caught my eye. Just as people are different, every situation is different. I'm not a mean, spiteful woman who was after anyone's H....I'm a woman who met a guy, fell in love and became involved in an overwhelming situation. (Yes, I knew he was married...when we first met, he always had a habit of twisting his wedding band....nervousness, guilt??)

Since we shared so many of the same interests/hobbies, a friendship soon developed (along with an EA). He made it clear that his family was his priority...and I wanted it that way. I honestly do believe that he loves his family more than anything. He cooked, cleaned, shopped, was "taxi" for the kids, and did nearly all domestic duties, in addition to having a strenuous, full-time job.

Not long after, the EA and friendship led to more. Since I had never been involved in a situation like that before, I began to read Dr. Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs", to try to understand what was happening, and why a MM would do such a thing.

The book made it clear to me that while my MM was providing nearly all of the needs at home, he was getting hardly any of his needs met.

This experience has taught me that men have the same needs in a marriage as women do, needing affection, companionship, conversation and admiration (not to mention the sexual needs). He wasn't receiving any of these at home....I enjoyed hearing about his day at work; I gave him praise when his home run won the softball game; I told him how attractive he was, I offered a backrub when he was sore, and I enjoyed participating in recreational activities with him.

I really believe that if those needs were met at home, he'd have no reason to "look elsewhere" for them. Did we have feelings of guilt? Yes, we did. Did we think of his wife? Yes, we did. We knew what were were doing wasn't right (which is why we ended it).

With the help of so many wonderful people here at MB, I am currently trying to deal with not having him in my life anymore. It isn't easy, but I know it is for the best. His family was and always will be my priority (as well as his). I wish them well.

DJ

djmusicbox..you say "his family was and always will be my priority." Wow...that's really sick. His family has nothing to do with you! How could something be a priority to you when you had a hand in it's potential destruction? My H's xow did the same thing...she thought she had a place in our family. I don't want her anywhere near my family and don't want her to even give us a thought.

If he did ALL the domestic duties, taxi-ed the kids around AND held a full time job, when did he have time for an affair? You fell for what he told you hook, line and sinker. That's humanly impossible.

I have to ask a question, does everyone think that and EN was not met by the BS in every affair situation? I know that everyone of us at one time or another has maybe "dropped the ball" but for the most part I know that I stroked my mates ego, listened to how his day went, tried to get him to emotionally calm down when he got uptight and tunneled on something he let distort the bigger picture, told him how nice he looked and smelled, etc.

But I also noticed he could not get enough praise or feel secure within himself which made my fulfilling his needs moot, he just didn't think it was special enough. Funny thing, I heard from MOW's bil one night that she could not stand my WS but in the last 3 years she saw something emerge in him that made him appealing to her, (we have been together 3 years going on 4) Huh....imagine that!! Also, he said to me before he moved out that he should thank me for making him so appealing that it's helped him out so much.
(hmmmmmm.....well you are welcome is the only thing I could say to him) Since it was total FOGBASED MUCK LINGO... But sometimes I do think that "enough is never enough for some mates no matter what the S does, you can try but it is a mutual give and take, if it does not want to be taken and used to nourish the relationship, the BS can not do anything about it until the WS bottoms out and wakes up..... then you start on a different level of the relationship.

Just was asking the question because I would like to know what others think.

Take Care....just adding a thought to your thread, hope it was o.k

Chris,
I know he is no longer a MM. However, for purposes of clarification in posting I still refer to him that way. As to whether the ends will justify the means, only more time will tell for sure.

Neesha,
As far as the EN question is concerned, I do not believe that is the rationale behind all EMRs. Some MM have Ws that meet their ENs and still cheat. It is an issue w/ them and nothing to do w/ the W. I have been w/ 2 MM. The first is now D and living w/ me. He should have never married his W. MM #2 has a W that I believe does meet all his ENs. He still contacts me. I ask him why he cheats on his W and feels a need to contact me. He doesn't even seem to know why himself. tew

Feeling Tainted,
I was the OW--both OM and I were married for over 17 years (me)and 20 years (him) when the A started. It's over now, and I'm divorced--hoping for a second chance with my exH. As far as I know, OM is still married although separated, and the divorce was filed almost 2 years ago. I learned from him that he'd had other affairs, too. (this was after we were quite involved, of course)

Anyway, did I think of his wife? Yes, and I felt awful about it. In fact, I thought of her a lot! I felt even worse about his children. He told me that his wife hadn't cared for years, and he'd had his own room for years. I know he did have his own phone line and he was in the room most of the time, as I called there often. (yecch!) It was all so sad, so miserable. My marriage, btw, wasn't near as bad as his appeared to be, but somehow I made my disastrous choice and got involved, via the internet and chatrooms. (long distance at first, then he moved near me)

Anyway, the answer is a resounding YES. I thought of his wife and my H, and I sat and cried to OM about the guilt I felt. I also had a curiosity about his wife, and he spoke of her A LOT! I think he was still in love with her, on some level. Why else would he talk about her so much, even three years into the affair? Also, he wouldn't call her in front of me--near the end of my relationship with him, so that too said he was feeling 'things' for her.

I think most people with any sort of conscience at all DO think of the spouses of the person they're with, but quite honestly we don't think rationally enough to not get started in the whole mess to begin with. For me having the affair was an extreme act of selfishness, whether I thought of his wife or not. Compartamentalization happens, and we shut the thoughts of the spouse out to achieve our selfish goals.

Just my thoughts,
H_P

Hi all:

I have to whole-heartedly agree with ladylou. I know for a fact that OW did not care a thing for me or children. In fact FWS now recognizes her for having little or no character. He would ask her what kind of man would he be to leave his children for her and she would answer, "The best".

Lou is right about the fantasy. She needed to feel better than me. Compared herself to me physically and all. Loved the secrecy of the whole thing. Like she had something on me. I had several conversations with her and she would try to pretend to be my friend. Even after he told her it was over the first thing she did was contact me. To see where my head was. Told me all kinds of lies about she was going back to her husband and she saw what she had lost. He divorced her. Anyway, after a couple of weeks when she realized that FWS was not going to run back to her she started emailing, and getting desperate. I told him she would. In ways I think I knew her better than him.

She was such skum. But FWS put her in a position that she thought she was better than me. That was her part of the fantasy that she started to believe. She would have done anything to get my husband to leave me or make me throw him out. He would not. She felt it okay to try to hurt me and disrespect me. Well he told her not to communicate with me but her ego made her want to rub the fact that they had a secret going in my face. And he called it quits. Said she was not trustworthy. Well neither was he. And some his observations were funny. Like there is a code of honor in adultery.lol

Anyway, now FWS is loving me, very much thank you.
Lou is right. They never had a chance, can't fill your shoes. If he leaves for her he is taking a step backwards. Don't let OW, OM steal your happiness. They will surely try. Thanks. wu

JPH....
When I said "his family was my priority", I meant it that I would NEVER, EVER under any circumstances ask him to leave them for me. That issue came up many times, and we both agreed that his place was at home with them.

Yes, he did hold a strenuous full time job, do mostly all of the domestic duties and taxi the kids....as you can imagine, that left very little time for us. He was usually exhausted and weary, trying to keep everyone happy.

Wucus, I'm so glad your H came to his senses and you're getting the love you deserve. You are right that some think there is a code of honor. It is laughable too! Mine at first told me the details were private between him and the OW. We got that one straightened out right off! Told him if he could talk about me to her, he dang well better realize there was no privacy policy for him and her!
Ok, it's going well now. Thank God!
Neesha, I know for a fact that many wives meet their H needs well, and they still cheat! I'm so tired of reading those of OW that say if they'd gotten what they needed at home, they'd not have been looking. NOT TRUE! My H was the one rejecting sex, and I was the one pursueing!
So his need there was wide open to getting fulfilled. I sometimes think the more we stroke their egos, the more they become so selfcentered they start to think what or who else could I conquer!
I always took care of myself and him. While I made myself attractive, clean, well kept, I also made sure his clothes were neat, well pressed and I took pride in helping him look his best! I told him everyday, many times how much I loved him and appreciated him. Put love notes in his lunch, called him at work just to say I miss you and love you. Prepared meals anyway he wanted and always had big meals for dinner. Never just threw him fast foods or easy stuff. I ask and did whatever he desired. Kept our home nice, our yard pretty and did as much as I could to reduce any work at home for him. Have given him massages and even pedicures! Pampered to death is how I look at it.
Then I found out he'd contacted an old high school sweetheart because he said he always wanted to sleep with her. Yeah, right!
Also found out she was telling him what time she'd call his work and to pick up phone which showed he was avoiding my calls.
So, no way is it always that their needs aren't being met. They just start to wonder what else is there that they might be missing!
And they stupidly forget to appreciate what they have already. They forget to look at us as doing out of love, and take us for granted.
I can't explain why it sounds better coming from some other woman, but they think the flattery is wonderful and sincere whereas ours must not even be heard.
No,not all have EN's not being met. Usually, they're not meeting their spouses EN's is more like it. Obviously, if they can hide and sneak around, lie and deceive, and make their Spouse look bad, they're definitely not meeting the EN of spouse. For most, I think it's a low moral value system, combined with a selfcentered, selfish, ego trip!
Some may have miserable marriages where the S is not meeting their needs. But then it's time to either talk it out, get help, or divorce. But never is adultery justified. Never! I truly think using the EN's routine is a cop out if used to try to excuse A. Common sense would tell anyone that you don't solve your problem by doing something disasterous. You solve it only with the person you're married to. By communication, and agreements on working on meeting EN's together.
So any spouse who is beating themselves up, blaming themselves, stop it! Your WS had choices and chose to do their thing, rather than face responsibility for their own part in a marriage.Don't let them transfer their guilt over to you. They're really good at trying to do that too! some that is. God bless, LouLou

tewjtm,
As to whether the ends will justify the means, only more time will tell for sure.
I was being a bit sarcastic. I guess it's okay to have an affair IF you drive your spouse crazy & make them do things which hurt and are very spiteful to the ws?