My WH has many, many childhood emotional issues that really muddy the water with regards to recovery for our marriage. It appears that due to severe fears of abandonment (he was left to raise himself at the age of about 14), he has a need to feel "wanted" by others which he seems to be able to temporarily meet by having OW (plural) become attracted to him. However, pursuing the attraction (as explained in Surviving) satisfies the need to feel that he can get women to "want" sex with him. His goal is not the sex... it is the "wanting" of sex with him.

Interestingly, he assures himself success by choosing promiscuous women with bad reps. Evidently subconciously he knows they will "feed the need".

So, in reality he does have unmet needs...but the root of the need is that he is trying to get the love, attention, nurturing, and affection that he wanted from his mother and father. This does not appear to be an emotional need I can meet.

Any thoughts? Anyone else married to an ACOA, abuse survivor, or one with similar childhood history?

MB cannot deal with filling the vast emptiness he feels inside...he needs a good counselor to help him with that.

MB can help provide you both with safeguards...Dr. Harley I think calls them "extrraordinary precautions" which need to be taken by someone who so easily falls into an affair:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One subject I do not spend much time writing about is people who are prone to affairs even when their spouses seem to be meeting their needs.

It is an important subject, though, because a small percentage of marriages end, not because needs are not being met, but because one of the spouses simply refuse to be faithful to the other. We sometimes call these people "gigolos."

<snip>

Whenever I counsel someone who seems incurably attracted to the opposite sex, I give them the following rules to avoid temptation: 1) Spend all your recreational time either alone or with your spouse, 2) no meals alone with someone of the opposite sex, 3) no rides in cars alone with those of the opposite sex, 4) never tell someone of the opposite sex thay you find them attractive or that you like them and 5) if someone of the opposite sex ever tells you that they find you attractive, start talking about how much you love your spouse.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 08, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Wow, that word "incurable" really hits me in the gut.

I would say that WH is doing exactly what you have suggested. However, is that the best I can hope for? A man that has to avoid women altogether in order to be faithful? In that case, there really does not seem to be much point in this. Over half of the population in the world is female.

I do recall saying to him "If it all comes down to the fact that you are addicted to the excitement of attracting other women (addicted to sexual stimulation - he also had problems with pornography), I don't think I can stick around to be on the painful other end of that. Remember, I've been through this once (alcoholic also) and it nearly killed me."

What a sad condition. It could be that the man I love so dearly can never return the love.

CKD-I have been wondering about whether I can meet some of WH's needs, too. He was sexually abused by an uncle for 5 yrs, ages 5-10. He never told anyone about this, not even me, until we had been married for 15 years (10 years ago). He assured me that he had "dealt with it" long ago, although not through any professional counseling, just his own thinking. I think he meant he was able to put aside his fears that he might be gay (not that there's anything wrong with it). I have since read a little about childhood sexual abuse, especially with boys, and there are many other issues to deal with other than whether or not they are gay, such as issues about control, trust, and anger. In addition, my H was the middle child, his father adored the older son, and H has spent most of his life trying to get his father's attention (or any attention). His father also cheated on his mother for 20 yrs before mom filed for divorce, and 14-yr-old WH went to live with his father, who left him in an apartment alone at 16 while father moved to another state. Of course, H never went to school during that time and did some bad things. It's a wonder he turned out as well as he did, minus the A's.
Now I admit that I haven't done everything I could to help him in the past, like giving him all the attention he craves, but I also realize that these are issues that he had before he even met me, and since I am not a therapist, I don't know HOW to help him. I'm trying to figure out what responsibility I should take for the state of our marriage, and what is just not in my power to change. Read Q's many-paged post, he has just discovered that his W may have problems with co-dependency, something W will have to deal with herself.
You have some solid answers as to what's going on with your H, did you get this info from counseling, reading, or observation? Are either or both of you in counseling? I know that there is nothing anyone can do to help these people unless they want help themselves, but the question is how long are we willing to wait for them to get that help?
I hope someone else out there has some insight!
LabLady

Me BS 47
WH 48
M 24 yrs
S 24, D 22
OW 44 widow/co-worker
2 early A's, DDay 1990, 1 EA, 1 PA
DDay this time 8/02
H goes btwn me and OW for 2 mos.
10/09/02 I tell H to leave, moves in w/mother
11/02 H gets disability from work, at first to stay away from OW, then ??\
11/02 still in contact w/OW
12/10/02 H promises NC, wants to come home for holidays
12/17/02 still in contact w/OW
12/31/02 H moves in w/ OW
1/29/03 I get letter from H, says he's getting an apartment, we'll see.....

Dear Lablady,

Hey - someone out there that may know what it is like to be married to an abuse survivor. If I understand, your WH was also abandoned (physically) in his early teen years. In my opinion, my H was abandoned emotionally long before he was abandoned physically.

Our marriage appears to have been ambushed from many sides...and we have more than M recovery to cope with.

How did I get solid info??? I have read everything I could get my hands on. Books on child abuse survivors have been very, very helpful. I have also read ACOA (Adult Child of Acoholics - for about the 3rd time since my H began sobriety 7/89. Let's just say he is the poster child for the self destructive behaviors described in ACOA. I have also begun reading Surviving (Harvey).

I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that my FWH has history that makes intimacy, trust, and commitment a real challenge. And to be honest, I completely understand the motives for his bad life choices. However, at this point the question I am asking myself is...perhaps I have to love ME enough to let him go. It would be so easy to attempt to be his rescuer, and I know if I leave I'll just be one more person that abandoned him in his eyes.

So much to process...so little time left for my sanity.

Although my situation and my H are very different from yours, I can empathize with you about having "more than M recovery to cope with." It's like repairing the M isn't possible until your H does a significant amount of work on himself first. (Mine needs to do the same).

"However, at this point the question I am asking myself is...perhaps I have to love ME enough to let him go. It would be so easy to attempt to be his rescuer, and I know if I leave I'll just be one more person that abandoned him in his eyes. " Exactly, I do think you have to love yourself enough to let him go. I am in the same place right now. Either I stay with my H the way he is behaving right now, at the expense of myself, or I'm one more person who abandoned him, and may cause him to have even bigger issues regarding abandonment.

One thing I think I've learned, and I'm beginning to accept, is that we can't change others, we can only make changes in ourselves. So look after yourself first. It feels selfish, but self-preservation is important, or you can't give to others at all. We can only hope that by showing others the changes we've made in ourselves that it will encourage others to make changes in themselves.

BTW - This is just something I'm curious about, since abandonment is a big issue for your H, and so you perhaps have a better understanding of it than I do. Do you think someone could have abandonment issues over their younger sister dying, even if she died as an infant?

Jen

Dear Jen...

First things first...I see that you posted at 2:30 in the morning. Are you not sleeping? I have found (at least for me) that a lack of sleep seriously affects my ability to control emotions. I used to be a horrible insomniac, but now I have cut out all caffiene (except one morning cup of coffee) and drinks tons of water, do not eat anything too late in the evening if possible and I sleep like a baby - even with so much turmoil in my M. So my first bit of advise to you is to get some sleep if you can. OK, enough preaching.

About the abandonment, I cannot really answer your question about the infant sister. In my family of origin a child was lost at the age of 4 a couple of years prior to my birth. I know that my brother (7 at the time) has suffered somewhat with emotional problems. He seems to have a lot of survivor guilt. But honestly, I do not know a lot about it. Given that we are 8+ yrs apart, our relationship is not that close.

I have read your posts about the "friends" that your H has over for comfort. WHAT??? It appears that the tables have really turned in your R. I have not read enough of Survival to know if that is covered, but I know I have seen some info on the site about the increased liklihood of the BS having an affair.

As the BS, I can say that the thought has entered my mind several times to find someone to "use" to even the playing field in my marriage. However, it has never been anything other than a desire to have my FWH understand the depth of my pain - a desire for him to have a frame of reference. WHAT A SICK IDEA! Each time I have had these thoughts, I have told my H about them and we have discussed what appears to be the motive.

We both agree that I NEED TO KNOW THAT HE UNDERSTANDS THE DEPTH OF MY PAIN. When he has provided that assurance, the odd desire passes and we can again move forward. Believe me though, I am one that requires him to articulate very clearly what I need to hear. Not only do I NEED to have H identify with my pain, I need to know that he can drop his own guilt (which demands that he detach from my pain) long enough to FEEL the pain of how I am in pain. If that makes any sense at all. Oh well, he gets it anyway.

So, I guess I am wondering if your H has some unmet needs to know that you identify with his pain and that you are not detaching from it. That you are willing to fully feel the guilt of your actions and therefore fully experience the pain of the betrayal to him.

In my experience, the desire of the BS to seek out comfort in oppposite sex is not about revenge. I have not felt vengeful in that way at all.

Oh, got to go now, it's late...kids are in bed. Time for me to pamper and be pampered. Guess we are on the right road...

My WW is exactly like that. She was abandoned by her mother and then brought back to be abused by the man her mother had married. She is a very attractive woman and gets herself dressed up to draw as much attention to herself from other men as possible. She is always telling me about men who give her looks or compliments. The most frustrating thing in the world is to see how little self-esteem she has and to hear her occassionally admit that she needs help but to never get any. I know she doesn't want to be the way she is but she's just too scared to delve into it all. It's sad.

CKD - I had just gotten home from a Sat. night out, and it's one hour earlier here, so don't worry, I am getting sleep. Thankfully, it usually is the one thing I'm good at doing when my emotions seem to make me incapable of doing all else.

But, I am doing just fine right now. I'm not sure about the abandonment issues for my H. Maybe he has them, maybe he doesn't, but I am not willing to let him treat me poorly. I'm distancing myself from him at this time.

You may be right about my H, that he "has some unmet needs to know that you identify with his pain and that you are not detaching from it. That you are willing to fully feel the guilt of your actions and therefore fully experience the pain of the betrayal to him." But I have been a broken record about telling him how aware I am of how much pain I've caused him, how sorry I am, etc. He either hasn't heard it, and prefers to be mean to me, or he'll never hear it enough. If that's the case, I am not sticking around to be treated poorly.

Really, I'm doing fine though.

Jen